I guess the idea there is that bladesingers are limited in their weapon options, whereas eldritch knights can use heavy weapons and such and take advantage of GWM and stuff like that. Regardless I think that wizard spellcasting more than makes up the difference so I'm in full support of the idea.
if we are lucky, maybe in 5.5... let's remember the original bladesinger in SWAG didn't had it neither. It's a brand new idea from the team in Tasha. I really hope that in 5.5 they revise the original race, class and subclass and improved them using what they learned with Tasha, Fizban and monster of the multiverse Dragon sorcerer with 10 extra spell, able to transmuste them for free to the dragon ancestor (similar to the Abberant mind casting it's psionic spell subtlely) elemental type would be awesome and all those sorcerer points heavy ability being useable profiency number per long rest would also greatly help the sorcerer
"Of course things like mirror image, shield and disengage certainly help" says my Arcane Trickster/Warlock. It's feels somewhat dirty if truth be told. :)
If you feel confident that your one and only attack a round will hit, the it’s great, but in situations where you’re not sure booming blade damage is not a good replacement for TWF to try and secure that sneak attack damage for the turn.
@@jonathanwynes2542 Yeah for sure. It depends on other things and I don't use BB every round. If I have hex 1d6 up I'm less likely to. It helps that the character has a magic dagger that gives an extra 1d6 psychic damage as well. So 5d6 damage every hit is common since I'm usually 1 square behind our Paladin and Forge Cleric. 😆 BB is just to make the DM cry 🤣
Paladin’s extra attack DOES scale at 11, though, just not in the same way. Improved Divine Smite is adding to each attack, so you get more from it with 2 attacks than from 1 booming blade.
One big sticking point is just the fact that if you attack twice, you're more likely to hit at least once vs. a single attack with Booming Blade. Mediocre damage is always better than no damage. But my favorite use of Booming Blade is having it on a Cleric once they get their Divine Strike feature, because then you have an extra 1d8 of damage scaling every three levels from 5-17. I think that can be fun if you have a Cleric you like to take into battle, want to conserve spell slots, and want something more interesting to do than Toll the Dead. But Booming Blade in general is just better for characters who will never get Extra Attack.
It should be noted that the first point is a bit of a two sided coin. Yes, two attacks means you are more likely to do at least some damage, but it also means you need to succeed twice to get full damage, vs BB's only 1 required success. So BB has a more favorable chance when it comes to all or nothing, while attack normally has more consistent performance in the long term with a lower ceiling
@@TheProgenitor Yes, and the more your chance to hit goes up, the lower your chance of doing 0 damage. But conversely, the more attacks you make the less likely it is that you do full damage.
I have a tempest cleric thats recently reached 5th level. Once 8th comes around that divine strike dmg + booming blade (from aberrant dragon mark) is just do nice, especially if i take pole arm master as well
My favorite thing to do as a bladesinger: here’s a flame sphere! Here’s an attack and booming blade! You want another 2d6 fire damage or the 1d8 thunder damage?
I always take Variant Human with the War Caster feat SPECIFICALLY for this build. No escape, especially when your only chance to run hits you with ANOTHER booming blade.
I feel like no one mentions Booming Blade is a freaking weird spell. Thunder damage can be weird to visualize already. Having precise sound flow through a blade, then patiently wait for a turn and intelligently decide if the target moved willing or not. That is some Far Realms shit right there. I much prefer the aethestics of Green Flame Blade. Stab somewhere with a sword wreathed in flames, then sling the excess off at somebody nearby. (I know that's not how the spell describes it, but it's easy to head cannon without changing the mechanics).
To explain the initial damage when one of my character used booming blade I made a small bit of flavour text. This character use sound to make their sword vibrate allowing it to rip through targets better. Edit: no explanation for the secondary damage, it kinda just happens.
I always imagined it as raw magic charged into your weapon that explodes on impact. The magic bursts out into a 5-foot wide forcefield and if they touch it from the inside, it implodes on them. If they get pushed through, they're pushed too quickly for the spell, and it implodes in itself after they're out of harms way. Still jank tho
I like to think of it as almost a sort of brown note or tiger's roar type of thing. There's this sonic disruption ripping through their body and they to take a second to let it pass through them. If they don't, then it'll throw the sound into chaos and set their organs bouncing around inside of them.
I had a hexblade bladelock (previously GOO), that had dissonant whispers and booming blade, along with warcaster. Booming blade for AoO, then dissonant whispers in my turn to force them to move. I themed it as howling wraiths that I channelled through my weapon with booming blade, then mentally tore out of the targets’ mind with my whispers. That visual of the wailing shadows clinging to the victim, tearing into their mind, was really cool, I thought.
The point of Booming Blade is to lock down an enemy and prevent its movement, not to cause additional secondary damage. If your Booming Blade forces a creature to waste its action staying put and dodging, rather than attacking, you've done well.
Yeah I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the video. The cantrip is for tanking. You want to punish it for attacking someone else. Damage doesn't make a tank, if anything it might encourage moving to attack your sorcerer nearby. This can be really reinforced if someone else has create bonfire with your booming blade.
100% agree that a 50/50 chance to proc the extra damage is optimistic. Using booming blade on a sort of melee druid build has been pretty frustrating, in truth. I thought I made the *perfect* booming blade build... shillelagh for max hit accuracy, crusher to guarantee the secondary effect. Hit em, push em 5 feet away, leave them helpless. And if that wasn't enough, park a flaming sphere next to them! Use Summon Fey to dunk a cube of darkness on them! I had *every* tool at my disposal to maximize the damage of booming blade... I even considered taking polearm master, war caster and three levels of Swarmkeeper ranger to push the concept to it's limit and do it all twice a round. But in the end, it's just not as practical as I had hoped. It doesn't matter how far away you knock them back if a melee ally parks themselves beside the enemy next turn. Even if the initiative order works out and the ally goes first there's only so many places to push the enemy. And every level you progress enemies will have greater movement, reach and an ever-growing arsenal of tools the DM can tap into to avoid dealing with the bind you've supposedly put them in with the booming energy... To me, booming blade damage is as dependent on your party and even the battle map design as it is on your build. You can negate some of the party dependency by breaking off from the party's main target and 1-v-1'ing a different target but that's usually suboptimal.
It depends on tactics and your DM. If you hit a melee enemy with BB and then move (without OA due to Mobile feat) just out of range, I would expect the DM to justify why the enemy doesn’t chase my character. If there isn’t a really good reason, then the DM is metagaming, at least for the first application of BB. I would at least expect a clever enemy to have to roll a wisdom, arcana, or insight check to suspect that moving isn’t a good idea.
I know this video is a year old, but it's subject is relevant to my new character. It's why I'm here now, but I just realized that I've been coming to your channel for at LEAST a couple years now without subscribing! Thanks for your in depth work on these ideas and builds, but more importantly thank you for doing the math!!
I made one a melee cleric build without it. Mark of Making human can provide Elemental Weapon spell to a Tempest Cleric. Logically, the weapon damage occurs before added elemental damage, so, when you hit with the quarterstaff, you can use Crusher to knock them 5 ft up, then use Thunderous Strike to push them diagonally in the air 10 ft with no save. They fall, take 1d6 damage, and are prone. Prone is a great debuff to give, even if it the damage is crud and it eats concentration. Once you have Polearm Master, you can do this twice per turn, plus an additional time whenever you are approached.
I agree and I'd like to be able to play a melee Cleric but y'know...they're arguably the second best caster class in the game to begin with. Clerics get some really good stuff with their subclasses to begin with.
One thing that makes Booming Blade great that I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned is that because it's a spell, you can use Quickened Spell on it, giving you a total of 3 attacks when you include Extra Attack. Because the damage is as comparable as it is, a character can deal massive damage for a couple rounds just with the help of a feat or a few levels in Sorcerer. Instead of choosing between ([weapon die] + mod)*2 or ([weapon die] + mod + d8s), you can have ([weapon die] + mod)*2 + ([weapon die] + mod + d8s). The only downsides I see to this are that it may require you to change your build to allow it and that it takes up a consumable resource each round. I recently designed a Sorlock build based around this concept and at level 20 it was ably to consistently deal around 86 DPR without Hexblade Curse.
A few combos I like: - Rogue : Booming Blade + Cunning Action - Cleric : Booming Blade + Spirit Guardians -> If the target moves..Bam, if it doesn't Boom ! - Eldritch Knight (lvl7) or Bladesinger (lvl6): Attack + Booming Blade + Crusher Feat -> Attack then Boom the target and move it 5 feet away - Various (1 attack): Warcaster + Dissonant Whisper + Booming Blade (Better with a rogue that got access to DW spell as it can also sneak)
A full level 20 Eldritch Knight + Feats can spam both Blooming Blade and Green Flame very consistently. On top of Lesser War Magic and Eldritch Strike being used in each melee attack from the two spells. While Booming Blade carries over to the Lesser War Magic. Then Warcaster up Green Flame... For the entire turn order, Blooming and Green Flame will be active with Adv sprinkled here and there. And extra attack with Booming Blade + Action Surge or Booming + Action Surge Green Flame are great options. Just remember to Shove/Prone and Grapple (and use Dual Wielder) for extra stuff.
I agree with your conclusions, in general, but I feel like you kind of half-assed the math on this one. You didn’t account for the penalty to hit with Great Weapon Master, which, unlike the regular calculations, doesn’t actually equal out when using BB. You also didn’t add Improved Divine Smite to your Paladin example. Again, I believe your conclusions are mostly valid, but you usually work the math a bit better. Edit: I hope this didn’t come off as dickish. I really like your videos and I think you usually do an excellent job providing good math for things that can’t easily be quantified. I just feel like maybe you rushed this one, a bit.
No, that's a fair criticism. I started out the math not taking GWM into account so I figured accounting for chance to hit was pointless math because it was the same chance, but once GWM was on the table I should have accounted for it.
I was also thinking on that, but It seamed like picking, since the reasoning behind It makes sense, at lvl 17 with bonus action it is almost Double dmg, even If you add the decreased atk chance It wont hold. And to be honest what melee character at lvl 17 is doing dmg so low? Imo BB is Just a remedy to casters being able to contribute in weapon dmg somehow, unless you have very specific builds
I had the same thought like I rarely try to follow DPR type math since it's complicated and also seems to assume a lot of factors that can be variable, but you're absolutely right that these things were off and a bit unfair not taking into account the penalty with GWM or the extra damage from Improved Divine Smite. So good calls. Also wondering how your comment says you posted it three weeks ago if the video came out today.
@@theresnoracelikegnome Yeah I figured it might be something like that but yours was the only top comment that wasn't 2 hours old at the time so I had to ask.
This advice lines up pretty well with my experience playing multiclass paladins. Even support builds that don't optimize for damage at all (shield > heavy weapon, cha > str, warcaster/sentinel/alert/inspiring leader > gwm/pam, etc), extra attack still wins out over booming blade or gfb when you factor in magic weapons, improved divine smite, the option for divine smite, etc. It does help smooth over the added wait for extra attack on multiclass dips, though, and can stay relevant even at later levels when combined with war caster to use on opportunity attacks if a build doesn't have room for sentinel.
I always defaulted to just saying "on-hit effects", and those include pretty much everything. Hunters mark, giants might, gathering swarm, hexblade curse, geenies wrath, enlarge, flametongue, magical bonuses and your strenght/dexterity modifier. If they happen on every hit, just that additional bonus can be more than the scaled damage and the secondary damage added together. Just something as simple as increasing your strenght can make extra attack more worth it. If you have things that only happen once (geenies wrath, giants might, swarmkeeper), it becomesa question of hit%. Do you feel lucky enough that you can hit once, or do you believe you will need 2 attacks for it? If you have effects that only help you with 1 attack (guiding bolt advantage), BB gets more weight.
I love my Arcane Trickster with Elven Accuracy and Booming Blade! No extra attack to choose from but still fantastic damage and chance to hit and definitely getting the extra damage more than 50% of the time. Find familiar help action, run in BB with super high accuracy against a foe that isnt next to another party member, bonus action disengage. :) Feels like the best Booming Blade candidate honestly.
Topics like this always make me wish I were better at charts, graphing, and maybe calculus. Convenient, specific topic video of a ~perfect~ length given its subject.
Thanks! Sometimes the answer is obvious, but other times...I appreciate your taking the time to crunch the numbers... though I'd think secondary damage about 35% of the time (for attacks made on your own turn)...which just reinforces your basic conclusion.
I actually think this is an occasion where averages don’t really work that well. There are several situations where whether you get that damage or not is going to make the difference in whether you choose to use BB. I think it might have been more useful to show both numbers and say, “If you think you’re going to get the extra damage, you should use it here, if not then don’t use it.” Because I think you’re right; the average is probably lower than 50%, but most of the time, in actual play, you’ll know whether or not you’re likely to get it.
This actually illustrates a change that should be made to D&D in general: Weapon attacks (normal/magical/natural) base damage should scale like cantrips do with character tier. This would greatly diminish the gap between martial and casters which grows with as levels go higher. The standard would become 1d4/2d4/3d4/4d4 at 1/5/11/17 for a dagger, which for most classes will be two attacks with extra attack and perhaps a bonus attack. The class which benefits most from this will be pure fighter as they could get four 8d6 attacks for a spread of 0-4-48 base damage (all misses, all hits minimum, all hits maximum) for a "bounded accuracy" average of 16.8 base damage per round at 20th level, still a far cry from the potential a caster can do with leveled spells, but on par with hit or miss cantrips cast at this level and on the same level as a Warlock Agonizing Blast for any d8-2d12 weapon.
Great video. I do think not taking into account to hit percentages has a bit of an effect on this. For example, it would add in the loss to hit from Great Weapon Master. Another aspect, that you can't really account for with stats but I think is important, is advantage. There are lots of ways you might have advantage on your first attack but not others, which boosts booming blade, but then if you have advantage on all attacks extra attack looks better. It's definitely one of those things you really do need to be thinking about a few different probability factors to get the most out of it.
Teleporting triggers Booming Blade. I'm going to have to disagree with you on your interpretation that it doesn't. Jeremy Crawford writes in Sage Advice that standing up from prone does not trigger Booming Blade because, "Standing up costs movement but moves you nowhere. To move while prone, you crawl or use magic (PH, 191)." There is a distinction between "moving" (leaving one location and arriving at another) and "movement speed" a distance you can walk/climb/fly/swim on a turn. Standing up costs "movement" but it does not move you. Misty Step does not use up any of your "movement speed" but you are indeed moving from one place to another (up to 30 feet). You are willingly using magic to move, as referenced in the tail end of the above quote: "To MOVE while prone, you crawl or USE MAGIC". Booming Blade requires you willingly move, not that you use any of the movement afforded by your character's speed.
If we look at the rules, movement has a definition: "Your movement can include jumping, climbing and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you are moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving." In other words, movement uses your movement speed. If we want to mine JC quotes though, how about this one: "When booming blade refers to moving, it means movement in the game's normal sense"
@@TreantmonksTemple I wouldn't want to argue for arguments' sake, but I think there is a discussion to be had here if you want to have it. I believe your response actually supports what I said as opposed to refuting it; particularly the bit about your speed (as opposed to 'movement') being used up in order to move. I should have clarified, Crawford's quote I gave is taken directly from the Players Handbook. It is not just some random thing he said.
While I’d like to agree with you, you’re incorrect. Misty Step specifically states that you teleport not move. No where does it state moving. Teleporting is different from moving mechanically.
@@Almighty_Mage I can understand why you would think that, but there is nothing in any of the rulebooks which supports your statement that teleporting isn't moving. I think this is something people misinterpret/gloss-over without realizing, similar to the bonus action spell rules. The Players Handbook gives many examples of 'moving' which are entirely unrelated to your 'movement speed' stat. Maybe it would help to look at the rules surrounding Opportunity Attacks. If teleporting was not moving, there'd be no need to list it as an exception: "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach. You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." Your 'movement speed' is how far you can move in a turn via walking/climbing/swimming/flying. However, it is not the only way to move.
@@Kniraven So would you rule that teleporting across Spike Growth still triggers 2d4 damage for every 5ft teleported? After all Spike Growth states: "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels." If teleporting is moving then teleporting through Spike Growth should procc damage.
Like others here pointed out, I feel BB and/or GFB work best with rogues and clerics, but I especially like them with the latter. It really works well with the scaling effects of divine strike, and the cleric classics of spiritual weapon and spirit guardians. My main character in a campaign right now is a 6th lvl tempest cleric/ 1 lvl wizard multiclass and he's the main front liner in our party, with an echo knight also in tow. Our DM jokingly called bull during the first big encounter, where I faced off with a stone giant homebrewed monster that summoned an earth elemental lol (shield spell + plate armour really helped me out, and +1 greatsword for damage with BB), while the rest of the party were dealing with 2 other normal stone giants. The damage was plenty good, got a cheeky chromatic orb channel divinity combo that hurt but afterwards it was a scary melee faceoff that surprisingly went to my favor. Once the other spellcaster banished the other giant, concentration fire on the other 2 ended the encounter. This was a 6 man party (3 of which are DMPc's) against 3 giants for context. Just wanted to share that semi-relevant story since the game just happened on Wednesday and were all still hyped about it lol.
The "Crusher" feat allows you to automatically push a creature one size larger then you or smaller 5' away from you. I used this to trigger booming blade. Cast booming blade...hit with bludgeoning weapon..push creature away that is enveloped with booming blade..they step back up to hit (boom)
One point that Chris overlooked, that I feel is relevant. If you're building a "tank" character that is intended to front line and prevent enemy mobility... than combining Sentinel and Booming Blade will allow you to prevent / deter movement of 2 enemies rather than 1. Simply Booming Blade one, so that IF they move they take bonus damage, and rely on Sentinel to stop / deter another. Granted, any subsequent enemies COULD move past you, but no build is perfect. I think if preventing movement with BB is going to save lives or reduce the total damage the party takes, then it is probably worth using over extra attack. Damage now is almost always better than damage later, but if the party doesn't take damage at all... it doesn't matter how long the fight lasts. If you prevent their movement, and they can't consistently hit you... you win.
Lv20 Warforged Eldritch Knight Unarmed Fighting Style - With Dual Wielder/Warcaster/Polarm Master/Sentinel/Mage Slayer/Magic Initiate/Eldritch Initiate. Plus a bunch of 4th Level and below Illusion Spells on top of Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade... ... ... "Sorry, I forgot to turn off my theme song, Burry the Light."
This video initially made me think I've been playing my bladesinger wrong by adding my Dex modifier, magic item extra damage, and Song of Victory extra damage to booming blade. But the text of the cantrip states that if the melee attack hits, the target suffers the weapon attack's normal effects. To me, that means the relevant ability modifier is added to the damage, as are any other modifiers, such as those coming from a magic weapon or other effects such as Song of Victory. I know bladesinger is an outlier on this topic because of the ability to extra attack and use the cantrip, but it made me question your calculations quite a bit on this one.
Awesome video. I love booming blade, but as I've played more D&D 5E, I generally use it now on bladesingers and warcasters, where its primary damage is worth taking that Cantrip. It's REALLY difficult to get that secondary damage in our campaigns because we usually focus-fire kill a monster before it thinks to flee. You have to have party buy-in on all skirmishers or ranged to get that secondary damage reliably. I love your optimism of 50%. I feel like it's 5 - 10% for the campaigns I play in.
Great analysis. One thing that is not considered here is that the calculations for Booming Blade are not done to full accuracy. Yes, there are going to be plenty of times where Extra Attack is going to be the optimal choice, but if your calculations for Extra Attack include attack modifiers, feats, etc... these need to be put into consideration for Booming Blade as well. There are plenty of abilities like Sneak Attack that only occur once per turn, so even if you have extra attack, it cannot be added a second time. Cases like this are important to consider when you're thinking about dealing the extra thunder damage or doing something else. Each does have their specific purpose for a martial character, so really if you're optimizing, you're going to want both :)
My favorite is a Sorcerer base, Booming Blade remains a cantrip, so it's fairly cheap to metamagic, specifically you're looking at Twinned and Quickened booming blade for a total of 3 booming blades per round, or 2 booming + 1 green flame
I´ve had a Bladelock of the Genie for whom this was a good question. I had the mobile feat which, in combo with booming blade, becomes really useful, but at level 5 when I got Thirsting Blade, I also got Spiritual Shroud, and I got Two Weapon Fighting (we modified it, basicaly I wouldn't have to use a bonus action for an offhand attack, it'd just be an extra attack without the modifier). And at level 6, I could fly concentration free because of the Genie´s Vessel If all attacks hit, that would go up to 3d6 + 8 (dex modifier was 4) + 3d8 damage on a turn. And that would only increase as I would cast level 5 spell slots with Spirit Shroud.
The other thing to consider is using Booming Blade for the threat of additional damage, in order to keep an enemy adjacent to the warrior? Yes it may not always be better for pure damage but it could be useful to make the warrior "sticky" to keep them off an ally. That's how I see it being useful. The War Caster feat would be required in this case, of course.
I feel like Booming Blade is frankly a lot like illusion magic. Its usefulness depends massively on the DM. Some DMs are going to make their enemies avoid damage at all costs, some dms are going to make the enemies absolutely ignore the Booming Blade effect and do whatever they would have done before, and some are going to do the smartest move every turn regardless. And many are going to end up somewhere between, with maybe their animals and magical beasts ignoring the effects, and their humanoids avoiding damage. Exactly what casting Booming Blade means is going to vary a lot by table, which will make it end up feeling very different. Green Flame, by contrast, is a lot more consistent in what it does.
I am a war caster 3rd level with a gish in the group that uses booming blade I took flaming sphere and will send crossbow bolts in later rounds. I am having fun thx for all the work.
Crusher. Booming blade. Warcaster polearm master. Quarter staff and shield. BB attack and move enemy back 5 ft from crusher. Enemy closes back to melee taking 2ndary damage. Take attack of opportunity via polearm master as enemy enters your reach. Cast BB via warcaster. Hit and move enemy back 5ft again via crusher. Allow enemy harsh decision to close again and take a second instance of secondary damage.
dang, potentially 2 full BB's is bad ass, lol. Bonus points if you have a magic staff with on a hit charge effects like staff of striking, withering or thunder and lightning. Also colossus slayer or Death cleric's CD* [if cleric is 6+] could apply to each.
@@elliotbryant3459 it's one of my favorite artillerist builds making strong use of action and reactions and use of innate artillerist strong bonus actions. Round over round strong damage with little resource cost.
don't forget the crusher feat; while it won't force the extra damage from it's movement, it can leave a creature stranded, either making it move and causing the extra damage more consitantly, or leaving a melee creature stranded without movement for a turn.
I’ve been going back and forth on two rogue builds, and I think the difference overall ends up being if I’m playing from low level or starting at a higher level. Build one is Battle Master 4/Swashbuckler 16. Simple build that gains Booming Blade either from High Elf lineage or (my preference) Magic Initiate from Variant Human/CL which also gives me find familiar. This build is super simple, but a bit limited on utility or anything that’s not just damage. The other build is Battle Master 3/Arcane Trickster 4/Bladesinger 2/Arcane Trickster 11. Grabbing the Mobile feat from Variant Human/CL. This one gets online later, but I get a lot more defensiveness, utility, and just in general options. It comes online much later, but if I’m starting at a high level this could be great.
Booming Blade works really good with the Crusher feat, if you are looking for an alternative to Mobile. Provided the creature is no more than one size bigger than you, you push it 5 feet away as part of the Attack you make with booming blade. Only downside is, you need to deal bludgeoning damage, and most weapons with that damage type suck... (Though one Level of Genie Warlock can solve that)
True... Or as an Eldritch Knight... Just combine 2 attacks for damage and Shove. (You're rolling two dice for the Hit and for the Contested Skill Roll).
I guess Booming Blade is a place where I’m just a crank. I feel like the attack cantrips were an awkwardly designed patch that cause some issues. The Extra Attack interaction is frustrating, particularly since they released with a power creep version with Bladesinger. Rogue and Cleric scaling become really strange. They maybe should be scaling damage better by default, but it’s still a really frustrating tax. Meanwhile, they’re also cantrips with full scaling but can also proc twice, and inherently add ability scaling to damage. There’s a reason Acid Splash is a d6 rather than d10 scaling like Firebolt. BB and GFB put the other close-range cantrips (like Poison Spray, Primal Savagery, and Shocking Grasp) utterly to shame in a rather depressing way. They just irk me, since they feel like they’re not quite in line with the rest. Or maybe it’s that BB/GFB highlight broader issues in weapon-user scaling. For example, there never should have been effects to ignore the loading property, but loading weapons should have had some other sort of scaling with a single attack. Making Crossbows and Bows feel different would have been great. But that of course runs into Sharpshooter issues, although SS/GWM are also a problem, in the way that they form a tax on weapon attackers, and just about mandate bonus action attacks and rule out tonnes of weapons simply because they don’t qualify.
@@Jabberforce it really just galls me that a Wizard or Sorcerer without a subclass--who ought to the the weakest of anyone in melee combat--deals more damage than a War or Storm or Forge or other Cleric with a subclass designed around being something of a Gish. The combination of Martial Weapons, Heavy Armor, Divine Strike signal that this is a character who is supposed to be a partial weapon user. And either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade outclasses that at any level, with no subclass selection, and no effort other than a Cantrip. That's just irksome.
Not sure if anyones mentioned it but one of the reasons EK is better than blade singer when it comes to BB is the versatillity in the options surrounding it. You wanna proc the secondary damage from BB? Use your shove action using your strength thus allowing you to move away to bait the creature into moving or simply staying put and letting it walk 5 feet to hit you either way your much better off in terms of procing than a bladesinger will ever be because they arent gonna put points into strength.
I hear what you're saying here, Chris, but I want to suggest that the basic premise of this video sort of briefly acknowledges, but then largely blows past something very significant, which I was recently made aware of by Colby over at D4: sometimes maximizing damage isn't the best play. Sometimes doing good damage - but not the best damage - but otherwise shaping the battle can be huge. Here's where Booming Blade can come in. Say you've got an Eldritch Knight. And yes, this is a non-random example, as I'm currently playing an EK 10/War Wizard 5 (about to level to WW 6), with the intention of getting to EK10/WW10, so that I can finish with War Magic's Durable Magic feature as my ersatz capstone. So Mr. Eldritch Knight has a flame tongue greatsword (as it happens, I do), and access to Hex. Clearly, three attacks gets you more damage. That's clearer than day. But Mr. EK also has the mobile feat, and has lots of squishy party mates he wants to protect, with lots of big nasty giant-types featuring among the cast of villains. I've been doing a lot of going in, hitting with booming blade, hitting again with bonus action, and getting back out. Baddie has to chase me to hit me, they have to chase my fellows to hit them, which means they're either eating damage or twiddling their thumbs. Basically, this specific cantrip has the meta effect of forcing enemies to think about the choice to move. Extra attack doesn't do that. If you're a fighter (even an Eldritch Knight) with three attacks and you hit something with a nasty melee-range ability with those many attacks, you'll hurt it. Maybe quite badly. But if it ain't dead, it can go after squishy people. We all know that tanking is very, very hard to actually do in 5e. One might argue that if the bad guy moves and eats the secondary damage off of BB they still come out ahead of the scenario where they got hit with three attacks, because either way they moved and BB did less damage. But that assumes they move - maybe the creature chooses not to. Maybe the eldritch knight is still in range of them and they decide that fine, they'll stick around and hit the annoying zappy-sword guy. For someone trying to draw aggro, that's a win, and it might even be a bigger win than doing all that damage. Cause maybe you have a sorlock in the back who's about to go full Eldritch Blast machine gun on them, or a wizard or bard about to drop a massive battlefield control spell and you just really need to keep that big nasty baddie off them until they cast it. Point is, yeah - no question. Extra Attack 2 is gonna be better if the secondary damage doesn't trigger, and also better if you're stacking on per-hit bonuses... in terms of raw damage. But if the secondary damage does trigger, we're talking relatively small margins of difference one way or the other. And there's the conversation about what your goal with your attacks is - is it exclusively to do damage, or is it also to attempt to shape your foe's choices, and so the direction of the battle? Also, this gets us totally and completely off-topic, but it's worth keeping in mind that comparing something like Extra Attack (2) in the case of the EK and a situation where an EK/Wizard multiclass has access to certain higher-level spells in exchange for forgoing level 11 in Fighter can narrow that damage gap SUBSTANTIALLY, or indeed totally bridge the gap. Example case: Ftr 10/Wiz 9 (yes, this is 19th level, so things are bonkers as it is). You have animate objects up and running. After an initial round of ordering the objects to "Kill X creature", which puts them on lethal autopilot, you spend subsequent rounds using the War Magic feature to BB + bonus action attack. That's a ton of damage those objects are doing - a hell of a lot more than your third attack would do. And you would not have access to that spell if you were a Ftr 11/Wiz 8. My point isn't that Eldritch Knights shouldn't take 11 levels of fighter; my point rather is that the above analysis is undeniably correct...when considering a very specific question. The question of "which is better" or "which should you use" is, I argue, ultimately even more complex than you state in your conclusions. Really the only way to think about it is in a holistic sense. And so I do think it's a bit misleading to suggest that going the BB route instead of Extra Attack 2 is unoptimized, or less optimized. It can be very optimized...just for a different purpose.
There’s another thing to consider in the choice between booming blade or extra attack: you can miss. Doesn’t matter how much damage you can do with BB if your one and only attack that turn misses. With two (or more) attacks you increase the likelihood of hitting. So in a scenario where a fighter using BB attacks and misses, that’s it until their next turn. If a fighter using extra attack misses they have a second opportunity to hit and do damage. True, they can miss the second attack too, but they still have another chance to land a hit
Goblin Armorer Artificer in Guardian armor. Booming Blade with the Gauntlets that give Disadvantage if the target attacks someone else and Bonus Action Disengage.
I've always wanted to find the "best" build which uses booming blade. Here's my findings: -You want a martial with no extra attack, because you want armor and high hit points, but do not want 50% of your power budget being eaten by something you won't use. That means cleric, rogue, hexblade, or artillerist/alchemist. -There's a combo of feats which really works well with booming blade: crusher/warcaster/polearm master + a quarterstaff. Crusher pushes enemies away, meaning they have to move towards you to hit you, unless they have 10ft reach. Warcaster lets you get a second booming blade per round as an opportunity attack, and polearm master makes it much more likely for you to get those opportunity attacks because the enemy provokes it if they try to get close to you - at which point you can push them back for a second round of secondary damage. With a variant human or a Tasha custom race, you can get this build online at 8th level, and already get some decent mileage out of it from 4th level. -You want as many "1/turn" rather than "1/hit" damage boosts. That means VGM Aasimars, eldritch smite, sneak attack, and to a lesser extent smite spells such as searing smite Unfortunately, sneak attack and crusher are a non-starter, there are no finesse bludgeoning weapons in the game. Same with sneak attack/polearm master. Artillerist *is* a pretty good one. You get medium armor + shields, the shield spell, and the protector turret, which makes you extremely tanky. And then you get a good 1/cast damage boost at level 5. Not to mention you can create your own magic weapons and armors for extreme tankiness. The one issue is, artificers get a LOT out of their INT modifier, so being MAD really hurts them badly. Hexblade is, as always, a good pick. You get medium armor + shields, very limited uses of the shield spell, and the spirit shroud spell, but the main attraction is SADness and eldritch smite. The thing about hexblade is, they get two very good per-hit bonuses, hexblade's curse and lifedrinker. So instead of picking 3 feats, you're usually better off either getting multiattack + GWM/SS, or spamming eldritch blast, which feels pretty bad. For clerics, there's a bunch of good options. Nature domain gets access to shillelagh for SADness, war domain's channel divinity can turn a missed booming blade into a hit and basically guarantees your DPR, peace/twilight are OP as usual, forge gets searing smite, etc... And all of them get heavy armor. You can use the optional class feature Blessed Strikes, which doesn't care whether or not booming blade is a cleric cantrip. All that's left is getting that cantrip to begin with, and there's a few options for that, ranging from taking a 1 level dip in a class that gets it, taking a magic initiate feat, to being a high elf. Overall, all of those are still going to be noticeably weaker than a straight up martial with a big ole greatsword and GWM. You do get a few extra things to to on the side, on account of being a martial, and the gish aesthetic is just chef's kiss, but it's definitely one of those builds where even scratching the bottom of the barrel for every single bonus you can find, you still end up with only something that's just barely usable. Another build that kind of "just works", is bladesinger. Just, bladesinger, by itself. You're tanky (AC of 13+dex+int, shield spell, etc...), you're mobile, you get a multiattack with a cantrip inside of it, and you're **a wizard**.
Very useful information, thank you. I have been contemplating taking my Psi Warrior a couple levels into wizard and was trying to decide if I wanted extra attack or booming blade first. I might just stick with my current class and use feats to get spells.
It also depends on how metagamey your DM is. Does the creature automatically know it shouldn’t move once it’s hit with a booming blade? Or does your DM take the position that if a creature isn’t intelligent, it’s not a spell caster, or they haven’t seen the spell used against themselves or another creature then that creature should have no idea that it’s not supposed to move?
Very valid point. For me, I follow your example, but for especially stupid enemies like zombies that are not being actively directed by a necromancer, I let them continue walking if that achieves their initial goal. Feels like good roleplay to me, and someone who went warcaster for the BB interaction gets to feel great about it
This is definitely a grey area. It all depends on what it looks like or feels like to be surrounded by the rider effect. If the enemy can feel it pulling at them or if they could tell it would hurt to push forward or if it’s a more hidden booby trap type of effect like they know there’s something there but not sure what will happen or what could trigger an effect. Beasts generally have 3 or less Int and I’m pretty confident they would stop moving if they felt magic pulling at them or the beginnings of pain from moving.
@@jonathanwynes2542 that interpretation of the rider effect is stretching it a bit, don't you think? Since to feel the pain, per the spell, the rider would have triggered already. So this interpretation is out the window. Pulling would imply some form of restrainment, where does it come from? Sure, after being affected once one can argue that a beast, if not 'bloodlusted', can recognize the effect, but can it put 1 and 1 together? That it was the movement and not simply delayed? Imo you give too much credit to a random beast.
Sometimes people make the mistake of thinking like you don't experience what's going on. Imagine this scenario. You have a character that is bending backwards really far. You personally know that will break your back. Let's imagine we have a character that has never experienced anyone see a back bent so far it breaks the person. Would it be logical to assume that as this character starts bending their back, it would continue until it's broken simply because it doesn't have knowledge ahead of time? No, absolutely not. Even if they don't understand the concept of a breaking back, they can start to feel the pain BEFORE the back is broken. Okay, that was a pretty lame scenario, so lets use a better one. Imagine a metal object that you have never seen before. You start to touch it, but you feel immense heat that will burn your hand. You pull your hand away before it hurts you. This is how I imagine booming blade. You start to move, but you feel the pain that is going to happen, so you have a choice to not hurt yourself. Just like a limb that is suffering and you can't move it. To move it hurts badly, so you take a moment to massage the muscles rather than attempt a movement that is just going to put you in pain. We D&D players need to stop thinking about this game as if the characters as video game characters that don't respond to standing in fire. By not being a video game, we can make it more realistic and have characters respond as they should, not the way a video game character would. We don't need advance knowledge to prevent taking extra damage. The character can feel what is happening to their body and respond accordingly EVEN IF we don't feel it.
@@jfast8256 I agree in general. The problem with BB, is that the effect is outside most people's experience. It's not clear from the spell just how the "boom" interacts with reality. What does "sheathed in booming energy" feel like? Is it a visible ripple of sound that hurts if you reach toward it? (Like your heated metal example) Or is it mostly invisible? the fact that the spell also only works if you willingly move, breaks the suspension of disbelief for it being an effect expressed in "real world" terms. If someone were to press your hand against your will against the hot metal, it'd still burn you. But if someone pushes you through the sheath of booming energy, nothing happens. This sort of design choice takes players focus away from how an effect might work in reality, and pushes them to concentrate on the "game" elements (for better or worse).
Since I'm playing with an alternate rule set, Giffyglyph's Darker Dungeons, booming blade ends up working out in my favor. Part of this rule set is a set of blacklisted feats that DMs shouldn't allow players to take, which includes Great Weapon Master. Im glad it's a requirement too, because it really does make builds so bland and stale when you see the same broken feats pop up in every character. Anyway, I'm playing an armorer artificer so I'm doing 2d8+10 with two thunder gauntlet attacks. With BB, I do 3d8+5 and my target has disadvantage on attack roles against everyone but me. So with the mobile feat, I can mvoe away and then I either get an extra 3d8 tuunder damage or I get to force my opponent to waste their turn. Those are both pretty great options for a cantrip. And I have my homunculus dealing extra damage with a magic missile SSI. Or if I get Dimir Gloves, then I can get the two attacks anyway thanks to two booming blades. I'm just happy that at least the build is viable thanks to the ban on some feats like GWM.
After monsters of the multiverse ,Kobold swashbuckler probably makes the best use of starting with booming blade .using draconic cry as your bonus to give advantage and no need to disengage
Booming blade works pretty well in concept for a barbarian/sorcerer character (like my attempt to make a meme-build of mine a bit more serious, abyssal tiefling barb./sorc., both wild magic subclasses [originally with more random-effect-having classes]). Lightning lure to get the enemy close (or simply advancing) + quickened spell booming blade to dissuade the enemy from attacking allies seems a decent way to fulfill the tank role.
My favorite use of Booming Blade has been with my dwarven Artificer/Battle Smith using a warhammer and the Repulsion Shield that he has made. Hit the enemy w/a booming blade warhammer attack, then wait for the enemy to hit you. Boom, trigger Repulsion Shield and knock them back 15 feet. "Come get me, orcie!" If they move, extra damage kicks in. If they have multi-attack, the Repulsion Shield (as a reaction) kicks in, moves them out of melee combat range and disrupts their attack sequence.
The Telekinetic feat allows you to attempt to push away opponents as a Bonus Action after hitting with Booming Blade. If they attempt to move back towards you, or towards an ally, then they take the extra damage.
This is interesting and I broadly agree with your conclusions. Personally, I homebrew that EKs get the same style of Extra Attack that Bladesingers get, as I think it just makes sense. I do want to ask, though, as last night our Warforged Rune Knight reached level 5. He had been using Green Flame Blade up until now and was excited to get extra attack, but then realized he would have to decide between which to use and wasn’t sure which was better since he liked GFB thematically and for RP, but Extra Attack also has benefits for him as he has a 20 in Strength and will be using a big weapon, in addition to other damage bonuses. I initially told him there probably wouldn’t be much of a point in using GFB as regularly any more, if at all, though I think after watching this video, the strategy would depend on whether or not there are enough creatures nearby that provoking the secondary damage would make a big difference. I guess my question would be how does this calculation change for a spell like GFB?
My DM is awesome and if you have booming blade it's flavored to be your blade breaking the sound barrier, also it has to be used on the first attack that hits. That way your fighter still gets the extra attacks of it's class
With polearm mastery, you chance of actually getting the bonus damage from Booming Blade is less since you might miss and not get it. This would make Booming Blade look a little better. This should be a part of the calculation. Also, a use of Booming Blade is to glue an opponent to you. They could move to engage one of your allies, but then take Booming Blade damage. I feel this use is the most important part of Booming Blade - but this use is situational.
Eldritch Knight + Feats: "I just let them willingly walk into the Booming Cage and/or burn them on top of Green Flame with Adv from Eldritch Strike. As I use Lesser War Magic, Dual Wielder, or Action Surge Extra Attack with Booming. Then Warcaster up either spell while every Melee Weapon Attack applies Eldritch Strike." Fighter/Sorcerer: "Same here but with Meta Magic + Extra Attacks." Sorcerer: "Just Meta Magic for Booming on top of Green Flame."
Artificer Armorer - use sword to booming blade, then use Boots of the Winding Path to teleport out. No attack of opportunity, and if they want to hit you, they have to take damage.
Its very worth mentioning that if you got booming blade via a wizard dip of magic initiate, you have access to find familiar which tilts the math more in favour of booming blade. Only having one attack to boost with advantage is way better for booming blade users
As far as I'm concerned the main use for booming blade is builds that don't have extra attack, and don't have a bonus action tied to strictly the attack action--stuff like clerics. Melee rogues if you can manage to use the focused aim feature. (For examples of how melee rogue might work, maybe your DM lets you get away with being mounted and having the mount move cause "you didn't use your movement". Or failing that, Scout Rogue being able to move as a reaction can set up focused aim booming blades decently often, though they may want a 1 level dip to pick up some AC so that they can stand in melee).
Hey Chris, love your videos and content. Here's a thought I had and seems to work according to RAW: If I have both the Sentinel and War Caster feats and the enemy moves away from me it provokes an AoO from my Sentinal feat regardless of whether or not it takes the disengage action, but my Warcaster feat allows me to alternatively cast a spell if it's 1 action casting time and only targets the AoO provoker. I cast Booming Blade doing all the stuff and damage that I can get away with doing with that spell, and since I alternatively used my reaction to cast a spell instead of taking a weapon AoO that means I did not take an AoO, and therefore the Sentinel feature of reducing a target's movement to 0 when hitting it with an AoO doesn't trigger that means right after my reaction spell, Booming Blade is cast, the target will finish it's already stated movement which triggered my Warcaster feat in the 1st place and move away from me... that will trigger the Booming Blade's secondary damage automatically. The target cannot change it's already performed action of moving away which triggered your ability to cast Booming Blade in the 1st place, so it auto triggers the secondary damage as it moves away. After that it can stop 10 feet away from you or continue moving or whatever. It doesn't really matter as the all the damage, primary and secondary, from Booming Blade has already occurred. Good luck and have fun!
Where does it say he cannot stop his movement after the AoO? If you hit with sentinel it automatically stops it so why should he not be able to do so freely? If the circumstance set for your move change surely you can stop moving.
I agree with JC's ruling on this. The reaction occurs before they leave your reach, therefore they can choose not to move. They have not "already performed" the [movement] because then they'd be out of your range.
@@totalutilitarian3292 Sentinel: "When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn." War Caster: "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature." Sentinel's root effect relies on making an opportunity attack. War Caster explicitly replaces the opportunity attack. Sentinel stops it automatically because it's a feature of the feat. See MrKostrom's comment for why they would not be able to stop moving. EDIT: Somehow I read his comment wrong. Amazing. 10/10. Shot myself right in the foot.
The reason i love the blade cantrips, is for characters without extra attack. Rogue, or warlock who wants to take a different invocation. Bard, or cleric. Much fun with a blade cantrip.
I use booming blade on my tempest cleric. It's thematic and matches well the plus 1d8 you gain at level 8. Booming blade is basically a 8th level ability you gain at level 4. At 8th level I'm hitting 3d8+4 (I have gauntlets of ogre power). 11th 4d8+4 and 17th 5d8+4. In a critical I could use my channel divinity do deal 2d8+64+4 damage. It's not a martial focused build. I'm a Frontline caster, but it's still better than casting sacred Flame.
I think when talking dpr for booming blade it's probably best to just state the with or without secondary damage figures, since as you mentioned you can usually tell if you'll get it or not.
Call me crazy but I feel like all of the Gish subclasses should have a "second attack can be substituted for a cantrip " feature. Swords bard, Hexblade, EK, Bladesinger and so on.
And I think that feature is already busted on bladesinger. Cantrips already scale. Don't make the Gish subclasses' resource-free martial damage be near that of a pure martial character. That would be way out of balance. You are already a full caster with AC comparable to a martial. The Gish subclasses are supposed to be not-helpless in melee, not best pure martials at their specialty.
Hey Chris, I noticed you weren't (at least) always taking taking the chance to hit into account when comparing damage. You need to do that to determine average damage for the round. You can't simply say, 'dueling gives you +2 damage for each attack so +4 damage per round'.
My observations: 1. I find that BB is often best used with War Caster, since in that said case, you get to replace your one opportunity attack with a spell that has 1 action. 2. I find that BB often only works better when the PC only gets one attack and then can disengage as a BA (e.g., Rogues via Cunning Action). 3. As a general point of notice, I've noticed that once PC's hit tier 2 and above, monster tactics tend to "shift" in a more intelligent direction. In a semi-practical world setting, where the monsters aren't stupid (or are for lack of a phrase, are "less stupid"), once they feel the effects of BB, they're much less inclined to use their actual movement in those situations, and instead would (as suggested by you) make use of either minor teleportation or a ranged attack of some sort to compensate for lack of movement. 4. In circumstances involving the Bladesinger at tier 2 and above, where cantrip casting can be done as a part of the same attack action, then sure, BB can eek out some extra damage if: A. You hit with your extra attack, and B. The creature willingly moves after said attack, while not under any form of duress. But those instances are generally the exception, and not the rule. {This, I think, is what makes BB relatively weak; the requirement for "willing" movement from the creature to conduct non-spell based movement in order to trigger extra damage.} 5. As someone mentioned earlier, I think you may have accidentally left out some GWM math (the to-hit penalties in this case) in doing your calculations, as well as other sources of on-board damage associated with attacks (e.g., Eldritch Smite, Improved Divine Smite, etc.). A minor oversight, but one of which, I think, only strengthens the argument in favor of extra attack over a single attempt at BB. {In saying that, I wonder about situations involving the Quicken Metamagic feat during a person's BA (more aptly, if it can be done in order to allow for an attack, in order to eek out more damage), notwithstanding any prepared actions prior to.} In general, if you're not either a Bladesinger, or in a class that gets an extra attack, then BB is the go-to option. Otherwise, extra attack outclasses BB convincingly.
I feel like there is only one use for booming blade: if you are a gish with reach weapon, warcaster and poleatm master feats, you counterattack your enemies on the distance out of their reach with booming blade reaction attack, and if they CHOOSE to go on attacking, they get thunder damage as well.
Melee Sorcerers (generally Hexblade Sorlocks or some stranger multiclass build) can get a lot of extra damage with a Quickened or Twinned Booming Blade/GFB. It's not what you want to rely on, but when you need it, it's a nice trick.
Thematically it is pretty awesome. Mechanically, you might as well just focus on Eldritch Blast (with the various modifiers) and Quickening that - much safer so less resources expended for similar results.
Perhaps slightly off topic...I never hear anything about Sword Burst, I think it's cool and would like to learn it's strengths and weaknesses and how to make the most of it...here's hoping you make a video about it 🤞🏼
Booming Blade is useless to any character that has the Extra Attack feature, with the exception of characters with the War Caster feat (and that's situational damage). But this was probably made for spellcasters to give them an extra option when the enemy gets close. They can boost their abysmally low melee damage, and if they enemy tries to chase them they take extra damage and may likely die (the extra damage is high for low level enemies). A caster with Shadow Blade and Booming Blade is no joke. It may be a bonus for melee characters with the Extra Attack only in certain cases like the high level character I am playing now (6 Devotion Paladin, 5 Hexblade Warlock, 6 Divine Soul Sorcerer), and that's because I can make the 2 attacks and then use the Quickened Spell metamagic to cast Booming Blade as a Bonus action for a 3rd attack with all the extra benefits plus one more smite...
For the Eldritch Knight + Feats. Blooming + Green Flame stack is pretty good. Just use Warcaster if Action Surge is a resource to save. I would avoid Casting these Cantrips as an Action unless you have Action Surge ready to use. Just cast both under Warcaster. Especially Booming since it lasts 1 turn, with Green Flame stacking DPR on to it, during your turn. Fighter/Sorcerer can do this better and the Eldritch Knight has Lesser War Magic + Eldritch Strike.
For what it’s worth (and I know that’s not much) i’ve always ruled at that dissonant whispers and command spells would trigger the effect of booming blade at my table. Basically if the enemy had to put 1 foot in front of the other they take the damage because mechanically that makes sense imo. If they are shoved or otherwise moved maybe with telepathy then they don’t take the damage, similar to opportunity attack provocation. The number of times this is become a problem is zero for me at least 🤷♂️ .
I think booming blade is a good incentive for the enemy to stay there and attack you. And that's a minor control option you wouldn't get with extra attack. As an eldritch knight with high ac and warcaster, I want the enemy to focus me and the secondary damage of two booming blades is a good motivation for a free cantrip. The dpr is lower, but the enemy behavior has values as well
4:20 You cannot safely move out of combat with the Mobile feat because you did not perform a melee attack, you cast a spell (Booming Blade). I hope i'm wrong. I am wrong. The spell says you make a melee attack, even though it is a spell. They do synergize. I have learned.
I think part of the issue with booming blade's secondary damage is the dm playing the enemy as if they know they'll take extra damage from moving. How common is the booming blade cantrip that a standard bandit would recognize it and switch to ranged attacks?
I mean, it's a cantrip. Cantrips aren't that rare. Recognizing it quickly on the spot is probably outside the purview of a first level street thug, but if a bandit has made it to third level, they probably know what it is.
I think you could also interpret that you feel a bit of pain by trying to move and stop before moving far enough. It's so nebulous honestly. That's TTRPGs though!
If the enemy is a humanoid and making more than one attack per turn they are experienced enough to recognize BB. Plus BB's flavour description clearly indicates that the target knows something is up - "surrounded in booming energy". They only need to trigger it once in their life to know what that means if they experience it again.
Agree with your conclusion, but this does show that the games you play in are very different than the ones I play or run. I'd never assume a 50% chance of the secondary damage -- that just doesn't happen in games I play. You did say you're now seeing below that, but I am used to way below that. Without planning to make the target move, I'm used to that secondary damage approaching 0. It does make the answer to the question posed much easier to figure.
Would love to see a breakdown for a Hexblade Pact of the Blade pure Warlock where this discussion is very relevant but has additional things to consider like Eldritch Blast scaling. I'm using a Greatsword so my Green Flame Blade seems basically useless after level 5 when I got Thirsting Blade for Extra Attack on a heavy weapon such as mine. So I think I know I'm coming out ahead vs either melee cantrip until level 11, but then it gets more complicated because Hexblade never gets a third weapon attack, but you do get a third beam of Eldritch Blast at level 11. I have 18 CHA and am considering grabbing GWM at level 8 instead of capping my stat. I am not good at DPR math but to me it seems I may actually need GWM at higher levels if I don't want Eldritch Blast to outscale damage from my Greatsword pact weapon? I just started using Spirit Shroud at Warlock level 6 for 1d8 extra damage per hit having dropped Hex for now. I think the move after level 7 is Shadow of Moil combined with Great Weapon Master at level 8. But I do wonder how all the math looks after level 11 or 12 or so with EB scaling up again. But then you can also take Lifedrinker at level 12 for an extra +5 necrotic damage per hit if you have capped Charisma. So a lot of moving pieces. Could make for another good video similar to this one.
I think part of it depends on whether you are using war caster and can afford 5 levels in an extra attack class. A war caster'd booming blade is in all aspects better than any plain weapon opportunity attack, and if going 5 levels into a multiclass doesn't work for you, then the opportunity cost of getting extra attack isn't worth it.
True, but unless you are constantly concentrating on a spell, you're probably better off taking Sentinel for more reliable reaction attacks than Warcaster.
I use Booming blade on my Swashbuckler Tabaxi rogue. The ability to run 120ft in a single round (movement, BA Dash, feline agility), hit a creature for 2d8 + 3d6 + 2d8 at level 5. I was lucky enough to find a +2 sword and just maxed my Dex so I have a higher chance of hitting now. Really sucks when you do miss, but when it works its sooo good.
I'm currently playing a swashbuckler3/genie (efreeti) warlock 2. Without eldritch blast and going with booming blade(+sneak attack) + disengage/fancy footwork... and my very generous DM allowed me to expend my ALL my accumulated loot to get a Illusionists bracers (copy a cantrip from action with bonus action...). Just got it and have not tested in combat, just double mage hand for shenanigans...
I'm curious about yourview on this character: A Warforged Artificer (Armorer) with the Crusher Feat. He can use his fists which count as bludgeoning weapons which will cause the enemy to move 5 ft away. Thanks to the Thunder Gauntlets, the enemy will be "taunted" to attack you or have a disadvantage to attack your friends. Wouldn't Booming Blade be a nice option here? Or use the booming blade on a tripped opponent?
I think you misunderstand how the Armorer features work. If you're attacking with your fists, you're doing 1+STR bludgeoning damage. If you attack with the gauntlets, then you do 1d8+INT thunder damage and apply the taunting effect. You can't combine bludgeoning damage with your gauntlets. *Arcane Armor* > Each model includes a special weapon. When you attack with that weapon, you can add your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, to the attack and damage rolls. > Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor's gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren't holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit. A creature hit by the gauntlet has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn, as the armor magically emits a distracting pulse when the creature attacks someone else.
@@Entifidich No problem. I'd ask for a feat refund. Sentinel is a good one if you're really going for guardian. Maybe Mobile instead if you want the free disengage. Extra Attack plays nicer with Mobile since two attacks lets you disengage with two targets if you hit them both. Otherwise, take your pick of the standout artificer feats like Telekinetic, Telepathic, or Fey-Touched. If your DM treats Magic Initiate like other spell feats, including Artificer Initiate, and lets you use artificer spell slots on Wizard spells, then it's also a good way to get Shield.
I should note as well: an unarmed strike does not have to be with your fists. You can attack with any body part, in theory. Features like natural weapons are what give you guidelines on stuff like needing an unoccupied hand to attack with claws, assuming the weapon is a claw and not fangs. So you can still 'headbutt' the enemy with Crusher, you just need a decent STR score to attack with, unless you wanted to do something interesting like multiclass with Monk to get Martial Arts for 1d4 DEX attacks. Unfortunately, you need proficiency with a martial weapon (something Armorer doesn't get) to get Fighting Initiate to pick up Unarmed Fighting. Tavern Brawler is still an option.
Hah, I was just putting together some calculations comparing attacks vs attack cantrips! I roughly came to the same conclusion: Extra Attack is much more reliable, but there are circumstances where the cantrip can be useful. I think Defenders will probably get more mileage out of attack cantrips than max DPR Striker. I'd also like to highlight the interaction between Booming Blade, War Caster, and Sentinel to make the most of your Reaction attack if you have the spare feats lying around. I agree that your assumption for Booming Blade's proc chance is very generous, and I wish that unreliability would come up more often in discussions on this topic. Personally, I've found Green-Flame Blade much more reliable in my games at low/mid-tier, despite the damage type and extra enemies required. Crusher can be a decent way to ensure GFB's extra damage, but make sure you discuss it with your GM beforehand since that that order of operations is up for interpretation.
It should be noted that Sentinel only contributes to that combo because it makes Disengage provoke attacks. The attack you get when a creature attacks another ally is not stated to be an opportunity attack, but rather an event that allows you to use your reaction to make an attack. If you're tight on feats, War Caster alone will give you the most mileage.
I love it on a melee rogue, but that's a different calculation. And if you don't need to use your bonus action for advantage twf is still a really good option to consider over bb.
My very mobile high dex Harengon wizard/cleric multiclass (Wizard X/Cleric 1), likes to use it when a single enemy chooses to single me out. In all other cases, I will generally resort to ranged cantrips or spells.
Something which wasn't considered but probably doesn't change the outcome that much. Many effects provide advantage on a single weapon attack: familiar taking the help action is the most relevant case given it often comes hand in hand with booming blade through spellcasting. In these cases, the single weapon attack made by booming blade is a little better than the usual case as you have a higher hit rate on the stronger attack. Additionally the crit chance is higher and pairs well with the extra dice damage for the primary booming blade damage. But ultimately I don't think it changes the math that much. What booming blade does well however is make waiting for extra attack less painful on multiclassing builds. E.g. dipping spellcasting before reaching lvl 5 with a martial class. Soradin comes to mind, but I've personally got experience dipping wizard on eldritch knight. Not having extra attack hurts, however having an EK with mobile, owl familiar and booming blade is still a very fun build in my experience, and very satisfying on the occasions where a crit happens.
I feel like this question is most relevant for "tank" builds that have sword and shield and want to deal a bit more damage to feel like they are contributing to the team. It's tough seeing the dps do 100 pts of damage on their turn and the tank does ~30. True they didnt optimize for it, but sometimes not every enemy group needs a dedicated tank. Paladins, warlocks, and barbarians have extra damage riders (and clerics...) to make their weapon attacks deal more damage at higher levels. Fighters get extra extra attack. So sword bards, monks, artificers and rangers are really the only ones who might need to decide on this. Booming blade doesnt require optimized spellcasting to be effective.
I recently considered this video's very topic because I'm playing a fresh level 5 Armorer Artificer (Guardian), meant to be 'the tank', and he doesn't get much extra rider damage like you mentioned. Probably a good example for the 'tank' role that's doing suboptimal damage. I've considered picking up Booming Blade on my next level-up. Assume your gauntlets count as 'a weapon worth at least 1 sp' because you attack using the weapons that are *part of your armor* which does have value. I'm lazy so I'm not factoring fumbles and crits into this. If you think it's likely to significantly swing this data, go for it. *Level 1-4* Point-buy. INT: 15 [base] +1 [VHuman] +2 [lv4 ASI] = 18 INT. VHuman feat could be a half-feat like Fey-Touched or Telekinetic; or Sentinel, Mobile, etc. If you take a half-feat here, you're at 19 INT and could take another half-feat at level 8, or if you take a regular feat then you could still be at 20 INT from a regular ASI. If you get a +2 INT from a racial instead, that leaves you in the same position of 19 INT then taking a half-feat at level 8. I'm going with the VHuman with two half-feat options since that's what I did when I made my lv5 character (got a free extra feat because my DM likes feats, but that's not included here because that's a houserule). *Level 5* 19 INT, PB is +3. Gauntlet does 1d8+4 = 8.5 average damage per hit. You have a +7 to hit against an average CR 5's 15 AC, for 65% hit chance. Booming Blade just adds d8s, so 4.5 average per d8. Extra Attack: 8.5×0.65 + 8.5×0.65 = 5.53 + 5.53 = 11.06 damage per round Booming Blade: (8.5+4.5)×0.65 = 8.45 damage per round. Target moves half the time: 8.45 + (9/2)×0.65 = 8.45 + 2.93 = 11.38 damage per round Target moves all the time: 8.45 + 9×0.65 = 8.45 + 5.85 = 14.3 damage per round If you have the Enhanced Weapon infusion, this gets better for Extra Attack due to the bonus damage being added on the 2nd attack that's only added once to Booming Blade. It would be 0.65 more damage for Extra Attack. *Level 11* 20 INT, PB is +4. We have armor modifications by now, so assume the improved Enhanced Weapon for +2 to attack and damage. Gauntlet does 1d8+7 = 11.5 average damage per hit. You have +11 to hit against an average CR 11's 17 AC, for 75% hit chance. Because it's a Treantmonk video, though, I'm sticking with 65% hit. Extra Attack: 11.5×0.65 + 11.5×0.65 = 7.48 + 7.48 = 14.96 damage per round Booming Blade: (11.5+9)×0.65 = 13.33 damage per round Target moves half the time: 13.33 + (13.5/2)×0.65 = 13.33 + 4.39 = 17.72 damage per round Target moves all the time: 13.33 + 13.5×0.65 = 13.33 + 8.78 = 22.11 damage per round *Conclusion* Because all you're gaining from Extra Attack at this level is going from +4 to +7 for two attacks, all you're adding is 6×0.65 = 3.9 DPR. Booming Blade is adding another 1d8 for 4.5×0.65 = 2.93 DPR. But the added D8s from the occasional triggering of Booming Blade outmatches this minor difference. And when you reach level 17, it becomes even more in Booming Blade's favor since our DPR just punching can't really go up from here unless we multiclass or take a feat to get the Dueling fighting style [EDIT: You'd need a martial weapon proficiency, which Armorer doesn't have]. Sentinel is situationally helpful here, combining it with Warcaster could make Booming Blade even more potent. Perhaps an ability like Hunter's Mark or Hex could be thrown on (say, via Fey-Touched) to get some more on-hit damaging effects to boost this DPR a little bit more, and would favor Extra Attack a bit more. Would be 1d6×0.65 = 2.3 damage per round with booming blade, 4.6 with extra attack.
@@AnaseSkyrider duel wielder feat so you can 2 weapon fight with the non-light gauntlets would really skew this in favour of not cantripping. likewise shield master for a shove prone for advantage in between your first and second extra attack.
@@samuelbroad11 I'd prefer the shield for the +2 AC, +3 with Repulsion Shield next level, especially because I don't think both gauntlets can be infused so the 2nd would hit less often for less damage. If you're talking with infusions at level 11, that's a missing +2 to attack and damage, so 55% hit chance, for (1d8+5)×0.55 = 5.23 DPR. EDIT: And you can't add your ability damage to the 2nd attack without the fighting style, so that's actually just 1d8×0.55 = 2.48 DPR. The +1 AC from Dual Wielder sorta helps too, but I'd still be missing +2 AC. A homunculus servant doing (1d4 + 3[PB]) × 0.65 = 3.6 DPR isn't exactly bad DPR here, considering PAM giving you 1d4+STR damage. Granted, that's boosted by the GWM combo, but GWM gets most of its power when you have advantage. Shield Master also does regular shoves which requires you to not dump STR or would force you to use the Magical Strength infusion instead of getting a +2 defense infusion, and RAW you have to complete both attacks before you can use the bonus action shove, so it might not even apply until next round if the target simply *stands up* (which doesn't provoke an attack).
@@AnaseSkyrider yeah, there's been some discussion about when the shield shove bonus can happen, understood. Standard shields are great! Homunculus are handy.
I disagree about dissonant whispers etc, the magic influences them to make the choice, so they are willing. But with say command, if they know what will happen they dont have to follow a command that is directly harmful showing it is them making the choice while being influenced by the magic.
I feel like Eldritch knights should get the extra attack feature that bladesinger's get. They can replace one of their attacks with a cantrip.
Yep absolutely agree. That subclass is fairly weak and this would have been a nice little bump to throw it’s way.
Yeah War Magic feels like a waste once you get your third attack.
I guess the idea there is that bladesingers are limited in their weapon options, whereas eldritch knights can use heavy weapons and such and take advantage of GWM and stuff like that. Regardless I think that wizard spellcasting more than makes up the difference so I'm in full support of the idea.
if we are lucky, maybe in 5.5... let's remember the original bladesinger in SWAG didn't had it neither. It's a brand new idea from the team in Tasha.
I really hope that in 5.5 they revise the original race, class and subclass and improved them using what they learned with Tasha, Fizban and monster of the multiverse
Dragon sorcerer with 10 extra spell, able to transmuste them for free to the dragon ancestor (similar to the Abberant mind casting it's psionic spell subtlely) elemental type would be awesome and all those sorcerer points heavy ability being useable profiency number per long rest would also greatly help the sorcerer
Yes, this is a genius idea, gonna put this ina revised version of the class where most of everything is the same except for that one change
For me booming blade shines the brightest for rogues, which makes sense, no extra attack.
It does wonders for your damage, but watch out for your survivability. A rogue that sticks around in melee too much can easily become a dead rogue.
Swashbuckler + booming blade
"Of course things like mirror image, shield and disengage certainly help" says my Arcane Trickster/Warlock.
It's feels somewhat dirty if truth be told. :)
If you feel confident that your one and only attack a round will hit, the it’s great, but in situations where you’re not sure booming blade damage is not a good replacement for TWF to try and secure that sneak attack damage for the turn.
@@jonathanwynes2542 Yeah for sure. It depends on other things and I don't use BB every round.
If I have hex 1d6 up I'm less likely to. It helps that the character has a magic dagger that gives an extra 1d6 psychic damage as well. So 5d6 damage every hit is common since I'm usually 1 square behind our Paladin and Forge Cleric. 😆
BB is just to make the DM cry 🤣
Paladin’s extra attack DOES scale at 11, though, just not in the same way. Improved Divine Smite is adding to each attack, so you get more from it with 2 attacks than from 1 booming blade.
Throw in a few levels of Sorc, and Quicken that Booming Blade into a BA for a 3rd attack
One big sticking point is just the fact that if you attack twice, you're more likely to hit at least once vs. a single attack with Booming Blade. Mediocre damage is always better than no damage.
But my favorite use of Booming Blade is having it on a Cleric once they get their Divine Strike feature, because then you have an extra 1d8 of damage scaling every three levels from 5-17. I think that can be fun if you have a Cleric you like to take into battle, want to conserve spell slots, and want something more interesting to do than Toll the Dead. But Booming Blade in general is just better for characters who will never get Extra Attack.
It should be noted that the first point is a bit of a two sided coin. Yes, two attacks means you are more likely to do at least some damage, but it also means you need to succeed twice to get full damage, vs BB's only 1 required success. So BB has a more favorable chance when it comes to all or nothing, while attack normally has more consistent performance in the long term with a lower ceiling
I wonder if there is a build here where using compelled duel would increase the odds of success at getting the extra damage to apply...
@@TheProgenitor Yes, and the more your chance to hit goes up, the lower your chance of doing 0 damage. But conversely, the more attacks you make the less likely it is that you do full damage.
5:43 Imagine if the Cleric was the one with both BB + Spirit Guardians, damage fleeing or staying.
I have a tempest cleric thats recently reached 5th level. Once 8th comes around that divine strike dmg + booming blade (from aberrant dragon mark) is just do nice, especially if i take pole arm master as well
My favorite thing to do as a bladesinger: here’s a flame sphere! Here’s an attack and booming blade! You want another 2d6 fire damage or the 1d8 thunder damage?
The best kind of choice for the enemy: lose / lose!
I always take Variant Human with the War Caster feat SPECIFICALLY for this build. No escape, especially when your only chance to run hits you with ANOTHER booming blade.
I feel like no one mentions Booming Blade is a freaking weird spell. Thunder damage can be weird to visualize already. Having precise sound flow through a blade, then patiently wait for a turn and intelligently decide if the target moved willing or not. That is some Far Realms shit right there.
I much prefer the aethestics of Green Flame Blade. Stab somewhere with a sword wreathed in flames, then sling the excess off at somebody nearby. (I know that's not how the spell describes it, but it's easy to head cannon without changing the mechanics).
To explain the initial damage when one of my character used booming blade I made a small bit of flavour text. This character use sound to make their sword vibrate allowing it to rip through targets better.
Edit: no explanation for the secondary damage, it kinda just happens.
I always imagined it as raw magic charged into your weapon that explodes on impact. The magic bursts out into a 5-foot wide forcefield and if they touch it from the inside, it implodes on them. If they get pushed through, they're pushed too quickly for the spell, and it implodes in itself after they're out of harms way. Still jank tho
I like to think of it as almost a sort of brown note or tiger's roar type of thing. There's this sonic disruption ripping through their body and they to take a second to let it pass through them. If they don't, then it'll throw the sound into chaos and set their organs bouncing around inside of them.
I had a hexblade bladelock (previously GOO), that had dissonant whispers and booming blade, along with warcaster. Booming blade for AoO, then dissonant whispers in my turn to force them to move.
I themed it as howling wraiths that I channelled through my weapon with booming blade, then mentally tore out of the targets’ mind with my whispers. That visual of the wailing shadows clinging to the victim, tearing into their mind, was really cool, I thought.
@@DrakusLuthos I'm pretty sure that doesn't work. Booming blade requires willing movement, while dissonant whispers forces movement.
The point of Booming Blade is to lock down an enemy and prevent its movement, not to cause additional secondary damage.
If your Booming Blade forces a creature to waste its action staying put and dodging, rather than attacking, you've done well.
Yeah I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the video. The cantrip is for tanking. You want to punish it for attacking someone else. Damage doesn't make a tank, if anything it might encourage moving to attack your sorcerer nearby. This can be really reinforced if someone else has create bonfire with your booming blade.
100% agree that a 50/50 chance to proc the extra damage is optimistic. Using booming blade on a sort of melee druid build has been pretty frustrating, in truth. I thought I made the *perfect* booming blade build... shillelagh for max hit accuracy, crusher to guarantee the secondary effect. Hit em, push em 5 feet away, leave them helpless. And if that wasn't enough, park a flaming sphere next to them! Use Summon Fey to dunk a cube of darkness on them! I had *every* tool at my disposal to maximize the damage of booming blade... I even considered taking polearm master, war caster and three levels of Swarmkeeper ranger to push the concept to it's limit and do it all twice a round.
But in the end, it's just not as practical as I had hoped. It doesn't matter how far away you knock them back if a melee ally parks themselves beside the enemy next turn. Even if the initiative order works out and the ally goes first there's only so many places to push the enemy. And every level you progress enemies will have greater movement, reach and an ever-growing arsenal of tools the DM can tap into to avoid dealing with the bind you've supposedly put them in with the booming energy...
To me, booming blade damage is as dependent on your party and even the battle map design as it is on your build. You can negate some of the party dependency by breaking off from the party's main target and 1-v-1'ing a different target but that's usually suboptimal.
Forced movement doesnt trigger the secundary dmg of BB
It depends on tactics and your DM. If you hit a melee enemy with BB and then move (without OA due to Mobile feat) just out of range, I would expect the DM to justify why the enemy doesn’t chase my character. If there isn’t a really good reason, then the DM is metagaming, at least for the first application of BB. I would at least expect a clever enemy to have to roll a wisdom, arcana, or insight check to suspect that moving isn’t a good idea.
I know this video is a year old, but it's subject is relevant to my new character. It's why I'm here now, but I just realized that I've been coming to your channel for at LEAST a couple years now without subscribing! Thanks for your in depth work on these ideas and builds, but more importantly thank you for doing the math!!
So many people conflate things that provoke opportunity attacks and "willing" movement. I'm glad you took the time to iron that out here.
It hurts that booming blade (or GFB) is the only way to make a melee cleric really work (lack of extra attack)
It makes the decision easy I guess.
I made one a melee cleric build without it. Mark of Making human can provide Elemental Weapon spell to a Tempest Cleric. Logically, the weapon damage occurs before added elemental damage, so, when you hit with the quarterstaff, you can use Crusher to knock them 5 ft up, then use Thunderous Strike to push them diagonally in the air 10 ft with no save. They fall, take 1d6 damage, and are prone. Prone is a great debuff to give, even if it the damage is crud and it eats concentration. Once you have Polearm Master, you can do this twice per turn, plus an additional time whenever you are approached.
I agree and I'd like to be able to play a melee Cleric but y'know...they're arguably the second best caster class in the game to begin with. Clerics get some really good stuff with their subclasses to begin with.
One thing that makes Booming Blade great that I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned is that because it's a spell, you can use Quickened Spell on it, giving you a total of 3 attacks when you include Extra Attack. Because the damage is as comparable as it is, a character can deal massive damage for a couple rounds just with the help of a feat or a few levels in Sorcerer. Instead of choosing between ([weapon die] + mod)*2 or ([weapon die] + mod + d8s), you can have ([weapon die] + mod)*2 + ([weapon die] + mod + d8s). The only downsides I see to this are that it may require you to change your build to allow it and that it takes up a consumable resource each round. I recently designed a Sorlock build based around this concept and at level 20 it was ably to consistently deal around 86 DPR without Hexblade Curse.
A few combos I like:
- Rogue : Booming Blade + Cunning Action
- Cleric : Booming Blade + Spirit Guardians -> If the target moves..Bam, if it doesn't Boom !
- Eldritch Knight (lvl7) or Bladesinger (lvl6): Attack + Booming Blade + Crusher Feat -> Attack then Boom the target and move it 5 feet away
- Various (1 attack): Warcaster + Dissonant Whisper + Booming Blade (Better with a rogue that got access to DW spell as it can also sneak)
A full level 20 Eldritch Knight + Feats can spam both Blooming Blade and Green Flame very consistently. On top of Lesser War Magic and Eldritch Strike being used in each melee attack from the two spells. While Booming Blade carries over to the Lesser War Magic.
Then Warcaster up Green Flame... For the entire turn order, Blooming and Green Flame will be active with Adv sprinkled here and there. And extra attack with Booming Blade + Action Surge or Booming + Action Surge Green Flame are great options.
Just remember to Shove/Prone and Grapple (and use Dual Wielder) for extra stuff.
I agree with your conclusions, in general, but I feel like you kind of half-assed the math on this one. You didn’t account for the penalty to hit with Great Weapon Master, which, unlike the regular calculations, doesn’t actually equal out when using BB. You also didn’t add Improved Divine Smite to your Paladin example.
Again, I believe your conclusions are mostly valid, but you usually work the math a bit better.
Edit: I hope this didn’t come off as dickish. I really like your videos and I think you usually do an excellent job providing good math for things that can’t easily be quantified. I just feel like maybe you rushed this one, a bit.
No, that's a fair criticism. I started out the math not taking GWM into account so I figured accounting for chance to hit was pointless math because it was the same chance, but once GWM was on the table I should have accounted for it.
I was also thinking on that, but It seamed like picking, since the reasoning behind It makes sense, at lvl 17 with bonus action it is almost Double dmg, even If you add the decreased atk chance It wont hold. And to be honest what melee character at lvl 17 is doing dmg so low? Imo BB is Just a remedy to casters being able to contribute in weapon dmg somehow, unless you have very specific builds
I had the same thought like I rarely try to follow DPR type math since it's complicated and also seems to assume a lot of factors that can be variable, but you're absolutely right that these things were off and a bit unfair not taking into account the penalty with GWM or the extra damage from Improved Divine Smite. So good calls. Also wondering how your comment says you posted it three weeks ago if the video came out today.
@@TheBucketOfTruth if you support Treantmonk on Patreon, you get to see some of his videos early. :)
@@theresnoracelikegnome Yeah I figured it might be something like that but yours was the only top comment that wasn't 2 hours old at the time so I had to ask.
This advice lines up pretty well with my experience playing multiclass paladins. Even support builds that don't optimize for damage at all (shield > heavy weapon, cha > str, warcaster/sentinel/alert/inspiring leader > gwm/pam, etc), extra attack still wins out over booming blade or gfb when you factor in magic weapons, improved divine smite, the option for divine smite, etc.
It does help smooth over the added wait for extra attack on multiclass dips, though, and can stay relevant even at later levels when combined with war caster to use on opportunity attacks if a build doesn't have room for sentinel.
I always defaulted to just saying "on-hit effects", and those include pretty much everything. Hunters mark, giants might, gathering swarm, hexblade curse, geenies wrath, enlarge, flametongue, magical bonuses and your strenght/dexterity modifier.
If they happen on every hit, just that additional bonus can be more than the scaled damage and the secondary damage added together. Just something as simple as increasing your strenght can make extra attack more worth it.
If you have things that only happen once (geenies wrath, giants might, swarmkeeper), it becomesa question of hit%. Do you feel lucky enough that you can hit once, or do you believe you will need 2 attacks for it?
If you have effects that only help you with 1 attack (guiding bolt advantage), BB gets more weight.
I love my Arcane Trickster with Elven Accuracy and Booming Blade! No extra attack to choose from but still fantastic damage and chance to hit and definitely getting the extra damage more than 50% of the time.
Find familiar help action, run in BB with super high accuracy against a foe that isnt next to another party member, bonus action disengage. :)
Feels like the best Booming Blade candidate honestly.
Topics like this always make me wish I were better at charts, graphing, and maybe calculus. Convenient, specific topic video of a ~perfect~ length given its subject.
I use booming blade as a form of crowd control, I'm less concerned about the damage, and more about keeping enemies in place
Thanks! Sometimes the answer is obvious, but other times...I appreciate your taking the time to crunch the numbers... though I'd think secondary damage about 35% of the time (for attacks made on your own turn)...which just reinforces your basic conclusion.
I actually think this is an occasion where averages don’t really work that well. There are several situations where whether you get that damage or not is going to make the difference in whether you choose to use BB. I think it might have been more useful to show both numbers and say, “If you think you’re going to get the extra damage, you should use it here, if not then don’t use it.” Because I think you’re right; the average is probably lower than 50%, but most of the time, in actual play, you’ll know whether or not you’re likely to get it.
Very good and educational video. Thank you for the detailed explanation.
This actually illustrates a change that should be made to D&D in general:
Weapon attacks (normal/magical/natural) base damage should scale like cantrips do with character tier. This would greatly diminish the gap between martial and casters which grows with as levels go higher. The standard would become 1d4/2d4/3d4/4d4 at 1/5/11/17 for a dagger, which for most classes will be two attacks with extra attack and perhaps a bonus attack. The class which benefits most from this will be pure fighter as they could get four 8d6 attacks for a spread of 0-4-48 base damage (all misses, all hits minimum, all hits maximum) for a "bounded accuracy" average of 16.8 base damage per round at 20th level, still a far cry from the potential a caster can do with leveled spells, but on par with hit or miss cantrips cast at this level and on the same level as a Warlock Agonizing Blast for any d8-2d12 weapon.
Great video. I do think not taking into account to hit percentages has a bit of an effect on this. For example, it would add in the loss to hit from Great Weapon Master. Another aspect, that you can't really account for with stats but I think is important, is advantage. There are lots of ways you might have advantage on your first attack but not others, which boosts booming blade, but then if you have advantage on all attacks extra attack looks better. It's definitely one of those things you really do need to be thinking about a few different probability factors to get the most out of it.
Teleporting triggers Booming Blade. I'm going to have to disagree with you on your interpretation that it doesn't.
Jeremy Crawford writes in Sage Advice that standing up from prone does not trigger Booming Blade because, "Standing up costs movement but moves you nowhere. To move while prone, you crawl or use magic (PH, 191)."
There is a distinction between "moving" (leaving one location and arriving at another) and "movement speed" a distance you can walk/climb/fly/swim on a turn. Standing up costs "movement" but it does not move you. Misty Step does not use up any of your "movement speed" but you are indeed moving from one place to another (up to 30 feet). You are willingly using magic to move, as referenced in the tail end of the above quote: "To MOVE while prone, you crawl or USE MAGIC". Booming Blade requires you willingly move, not that you use any of the movement afforded by your character's speed.
If we look at the rules, movement has a definition: "Your movement can include jumping, climbing and swimming. These different modes of movement can be combined with walking, or they can constitute your entire move. However you are moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving." In other words, movement uses your movement speed.
If we want to mine JC quotes though, how about this one: "When booming blade refers to moving, it means movement in the game's normal sense"
@@TreantmonksTemple I wouldn't want to argue for arguments' sake, but I think there is a discussion to be had here if you want to have it. I believe your response actually supports what I said as opposed to refuting it; particularly the bit about your speed (as opposed to 'movement') being used up in order to move. I should have clarified, Crawford's quote I gave is taken directly from the Players Handbook. It is not just some random thing he said.
While I’d like to agree with you, you’re incorrect. Misty Step specifically states that you teleport not move. No where does it state moving. Teleporting is different from moving mechanically.
@@Almighty_Mage I can understand why you would think that, but there is nothing in any of the rulebooks which supports your statement that teleporting isn't moving. I think this is something people misinterpret/gloss-over without realizing, similar to the bonus action spell rules. The Players Handbook gives many examples of 'moving' which are entirely unrelated to your 'movement speed' stat.
Maybe it would help to look at the rules surrounding Opportunity Attacks. If teleporting was not moving, there'd be no need to list it as an exception:
"You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach.
You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction."
Your 'movement speed' is how far you can move in a turn via walking/climbing/swimming/flying. However, it is not the only way to move.
@@Kniraven So would you rule that teleporting across Spike Growth still triggers 2d4 damage for every 5ft teleported? After all Spike Growth states: "When a creature moves into or within the area, it takes 2d4 piercing damage for every 5 feet it travels." If teleporting is moving then teleporting through Spike Growth should procc damage.
Like others here pointed out, I feel BB and/or GFB work best with rogues and clerics, but I especially like them with the latter. It really works well with the scaling effects of divine strike, and the cleric classics of spiritual weapon and spirit guardians.
My main character in a campaign right now is a 6th lvl tempest cleric/ 1 lvl wizard multiclass and he's the main front liner in our party, with an echo knight also in tow. Our DM jokingly called bull during the first big encounter, where I faced off with a stone giant homebrewed monster that summoned an earth elemental lol (shield spell + plate armour really helped me out, and +1 greatsword for damage with BB), while the rest of the party were dealing with 2 other normal stone giants. The damage was plenty good, got a cheeky chromatic orb channel divinity combo that hurt but afterwards it was a scary melee faceoff that surprisingly went to my favor. Once the other spellcaster banished the other giant, concentration fire on the other 2 ended the encounter. This was a 6 man party (3 of which are DMPc's) against 3 giants for context.
Just wanted to share that semi-relevant story since the game just happened on Wednesday and were all still hyped about it lol.
The "Crusher" feat allows you to automatically push a creature one size larger then you or smaller 5' away from you. I used this to trigger booming blade. Cast booming blade...hit with bludgeoning weapon..push creature away that is enveloped with booming blade..they step back up to hit (boom)
This video was the exact thing I needed to make up my mind on my character build. Thank you!
One point that Chris overlooked, that I feel is relevant. If you're building a "tank" character that is intended to front line and prevent enemy mobility... than combining Sentinel and Booming Blade will allow you to prevent / deter movement of 2 enemies rather than 1. Simply Booming Blade one, so that IF they move they take bonus damage, and rely on Sentinel to stop / deter another. Granted, any subsequent enemies COULD move past you, but no build is perfect. I think if preventing movement with BB is going to save lives or reduce the total damage the party takes, then it is probably worth using over extra attack.
Damage now is almost always better than damage later, but if the party doesn't take damage at all... it doesn't matter how long the fight lasts. If you prevent their movement, and they can't consistently hit you... you win.
Lv20 Warforged Eldritch Knight Unarmed Fighting Style - With Dual Wielder/Warcaster/Polarm Master/Sentinel/Mage Slayer/Magic Initiate/Eldritch Initiate. Plus a bunch of 4th Level and below Illusion Spells on top of Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade... ... ... "Sorry, I forgot to turn off my theme song, Burry the Light."
These kinds of video are seriously, really really helpful. Keep the good work!
Wow. I really though Booming Blade damage triggered with Dissonant Whispers 😯 nice catch
This video initially made me think I've been playing my bladesinger wrong by adding my Dex modifier, magic item extra damage, and Song of Victory extra damage to booming blade. But the text of the cantrip states that if the melee attack hits, the target suffers the weapon attack's normal effects. To me, that means the relevant ability modifier is added to the damage, as are any other modifiers, such as those coming from a magic weapon or other effects such as Song of Victory. I know bladesinger is an outlier on this topic because of the ability to extra attack and use the cantrip, but it made me question your calculations quite a bit on this one.
Awesome video. I love booming blade, but as I've played more D&D 5E, I generally use it now on bladesingers and warcasters, where its primary damage is worth taking that Cantrip. It's REALLY difficult to get that secondary damage in our campaigns because we usually focus-fire kill a monster before it thinks to flee. You have to have party buy-in on all skirmishers or ranged to get that secondary damage reliably. I love your optimism of 50%. I feel like it's 5 - 10% for the campaigns I play in.
Great analysis.
One thing that is not considered here is that the calculations for Booming Blade are not done to full accuracy. Yes, there are going to be plenty of times where Extra Attack is going to be the optimal choice, but if your calculations for Extra Attack include attack modifiers, feats, etc... these need to be put into consideration for Booming Blade as well. There are plenty of abilities like Sneak Attack that only occur once per turn, so even if you have extra attack, it cannot be added a second time. Cases like this are important to consider when you're thinking about dealing the extra thunder damage or doing something else.
Each does have their specific purpose for a martial character, so really if you're optimizing, you're going to want both :)
My favorite is a Sorcerer base, Booming Blade remains a cantrip, so it's fairly cheap to metamagic, specifically you're looking at Twinned and Quickened booming blade for a total of 3 booming blades per round, or 2 booming + 1 green flame
“DND is for everyone”. The more we play the truer is gets. Thank you for your video!
I´ve had a Bladelock of the Genie for whom this was a good question. I had the mobile feat which, in combo with booming blade, becomes really useful, but at level 5 when I got Thirsting Blade, I also got Spiritual Shroud, and I got Two Weapon Fighting (we modified it, basicaly I wouldn't have to use a bonus action for an offhand attack, it'd just be an extra attack without the modifier). And at level 6, I could fly concentration free because of the Genie´s Vessel
If all attacks hit, that would go up to 3d6 + 8 (dex modifier was 4) + 3d8 damage on a turn. And that would only increase as I would cast level 5 spell slots with Spirit Shroud.
The other thing to consider is using Booming Blade for the threat of additional damage, in order to keep an enemy adjacent to the warrior? Yes it may not always be better for pure damage but it could be useful to make the warrior "sticky" to keep them off an ally. That's how I see it being useful.
The War Caster feat would be required in this case, of course.
Agreed, 5E needs more sticky tank options beyond the Sentinel feat.
I feel like Booming Blade is frankly a lot like illusion magic. Its usefulness depends massively on the DM.
Some DMs are going to make their enemies avoid damage at all costs, some dms are going to make the enemies absolutely ignore the Booming Blade effect and do whatever they would have done before, and some are going to do the smartest move every turn regardless. And many are going to end up somewhere between, with maybe their animals and magical beasts ignoring the effects, and their humanoids avoiding damage.
Exactly what casting Booming Blade means is going to vary a lot by table, which will make it end up feeling very different.
Green Flame, by contrast, is a lot more consistent in what it does.
I am a war caster 3rd level with a gish in the group that uses booming blade I took flaming sphere and will send crossbow bolts in later rounds. I am having fun thx for all the work.
Crusher. Booming blade. Warcaster polearm master. Quarter staff and shield.
BB attack and move enemy back 5 ft from crusher. Enemy closes back to melee taking 2ndary damage. Take attack of opportunity via polearm master as enemy enters your reach. Cast BB via warcaster. Hit and move enemy back 5ft again via crusher. Allow enemy harsh decision to close again and take a second instance of secondary damage.
Booming blade is always better for opp attacks if you have warcaster than a plain attack.
dang, potentially 2 full BB's is bad ass, lol. Bonus points if you have a magic staff with on a hit charge effects like staff of striking, withering or thunder and lightning. Also colossus slayer or Death cleric's CD* [if cleric is 6+] could apply to each.
@@elliotbryant3459 it's one of my favorite artillerist builds making strong use of action and reactions and use of innate artillerist strong bonus actions. Round over round strong damage with little resource cost.
don't forget the crusher feat; while it won't force the extra damage from it's movement, it can leave a creature stranded, either making it move and causing the extra damage more consitantly, or leaving a melee creature stranded without movement for a turn.
I’ve been going back and forth on two rogue builds, and I think the difference overall ends up being if I’m playing from low level or starting at a higher level.
Build one is Battle Master 4/Swashbuckler 16. Simple build that gains Booming Blade either from High Elf lineage or (my preference) Magic Initiate from Variant Human/CL which also gives me find familiar. This build is super simple, but a bit limited on utility or anything that’s not just damage.
The other build is Battle Master 3/Arcane Trickster 4/Bladesinger 2/Arcane Trickster 11. Grabbing the Mobile feat from Variant Human/CL. This one gets online later, but I get a lot more defensiveness, utility, and just in general options. It comes online much later, but if I’m starting at a high level this could be great.
Booming Blade works really good with the Crusher feat, if you are looking for an alternative to Mobile.
Provided the creature is no more than one size bigger than you, you push it 5 feet away as part of the Attack you make with booming blade. Only downside is, you need to deal bludgeoning damage, and most weapons with that damage type suck... (Though one Level of Genie Warlock can solve that)
True... Or as an Eldritch Knight... Just combine 2 attacks for damage and Shove. (You're rolling two dice for the Hit and for the Contested Skill Roll).
I guess Booming Blade is a place where I’m just a crank. I feel like the attack cantrips were an awkwardly designed patch that cause some issues. The Extra Attack interaction is frustrating, particularly since they released with a power creep version with Bladesinger. Rogue and Cleric scaling become really strange. They maybe should be scaling damage better by default, but it’s still a really frustrating tax.
Meanwhile, they’re also cantrips with full scaling but can also proc twice, and inherently add ability scaling to damage. There’s a reason Acid Splash is a d6 rather than d10 scaling like Firebolt. BB and GFB put the other close-range cantrips (like Poison Spray, Primal Savagery, and Shocking Grasp) utterly to shame in a rather depressing way.
They just irk me, since they feel like they’re not quite in line with the rest. Or maybe it’s that BB/GFB highlight broader issues in weapon-user scaling. For example, there never should have been effects to ignore the loading property, but loading weapons should have had some other sort of scaling with a single attack. Making Crossbows and Bows feel different would have been great. But that of course runs into Sharpshooter issues, although SS/GWM are also a problem, in the way that they form a tax on weapon attackers, and just about mandate bonus action attacks and rule out tonnes of weapons simply because they don’t qualify.
This is really just touching on the worst part of 5e. The spells are inconsistent in balance, interactions with other rules, and poorly described.
@@Jabberforce it really just galls me that a Wizard or Sorcerer without a subclass--who ought to the the weakest of anyone in melee combat--deals more damage than a War or Storm or Forge or other Cleric with a subclass designed around being something of a Gish. The combination of Martial Weapons, Heavy Armor, Divine Strike signal that this is a character who is supposed to be a partial weapon user. And either Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade outclasses that at any level, with no subclass selection, and no effort other than a Cantrip. That's just irksome.
Not sure if anyones mentioned it but one of the reasons EK is better than blade singer when it comes to BB is the versatillity in the options surrounding it. You wanna proc the secondary damage from BB? Use your shove action using your strength thus allowing you to move away to bait the creature into moving or simply staying put and letting it walk 5 feet to hit you either way your much better off in terms of procing than a bladesinger will ever be because they arent gonna put points into strength.
Lots of Bladesingers take Mobile though which lets them even more effectively procc BB
I hear what you're saying here, Chris, but I want to suggest that the basic premise of this video sort of briefly acknowledges, but then largely blows past something very significant, which I was recently made aware of by Colby over at D4: sometimes maximizing damage isn't the best play. Sometimes doing good damage - but not the best damage - but otherwise shaping the battle can be huge. Here's where Booming Blade can come in. Say you've got an Eldritch Knight. And yes, this is a non-random example, as I'm currently playing an EK 10/War Wizard 5 (about to level to WW 6), with the intention of getting to EK10/WW10, so that I can finish with War Magic's Durable Magic feature as my ersatz capstone.
So Mr. Eldritch Knight has a flame tongue greatsword (as it happens, I do), and access to Hex. Clearly, three attacks gets you more damage. That's clearer than day. But Mr. EK also has the mobile feat, and has lots of squishy party mates he wants to protect, with lots of big nasty giant-types featuring among the cast of villains. I've been doing a lot of going in, hitting with booming blade, hitting again with bonus action, and getting back out. Baddie has to chase me to hit me, they have to chase my fellows to hit them, which means they're either eating damage or twiddling their thumbs. Basically, this specific cantrip has the meta effect of forcing enemies to think about the choice to move. Extra attack doesn't do that. If you're a fighter (even an Eldritch Knight) with three attacks and you hit something with a nasty melee-range ability with those many attacks, you'll hurt it. Maybe quite badly. But if it ain't dead, it can go after squishy people. We all know that tanking is very, very hard to actually do in 5e. One might argue that if the bad guy moves and eats the secondary damage off of BB they still come out ahead of the scenario where they got hit with three attacks, because either way they moved and BB did less damage. But that assumes they move - maybe the creature chooses not to. Maybe the eldritch knight is still in range of them and they decide that fine, they'll stick around and hit the annoying zappy-sword guy. For someone trying to draw aggro, that's a win, and it might even be a bigger win than doing all that damage. Cause maybe you have a sorlock in the back who's about to go full Eldritch Blast machine gun on them, or a wizard or bard about to drop a massive battlefield control spell and you just really need to keep that big nasty baddie off them until they cast it.
Point is, yeah - no question. Extra Attack 2 is gonna be better if the secondary damage doesn't trigger, and also better if you're stacking on per-hit bonuses... in terms of raw damage. But if the secondary damage does trigger, we're talking relatively small margins of difference one way or the other. And there's the conversation about what your goal with your attacks is - is it exclusively to do damage, or is it also to attempt to shape your foe's choices, and so the direction of the battle?
Also, this gets us totally and completely off-topic, but it's worth keeping in mind that comparing something like Extra Attack (2) in the case of the EK and a situation where an EK/Wizard multiclass has access to certain higher-level spells in exchange for forgoing level 11 in Fighter can narrow that damage gap SUBSTANTIALLY, or indeed totally bridge the gap. Example case: Ftr 10/Wiz 9 (yes, this is 19th level, so things are bonkers as it is). You have animate objects up and running. After an initial round of ordering the objects to "Kill X creature", which puts them on lethal autopilot, you spend subsequent rounds using the War Magic feature to BB + bonus action attack. That's a ton of damage those objects are doing - a hell of a lot more than your third attack would do. And you would not have access to that spell if you were a Ftr 11/Wiz 8.
My point isn't that Eldritch Knights shouldn't take 11 levels of fighter; my point rather is that the above analysis is undeniably correct...when considering a very specific question. The question of "which is better" or "which should you use" is, I argue, ultimately even more complex than you state in your conclusions. Really the only way to think about it is in a holistic sense. And so I do think it's a bit misleading to suggest that going the BB route instead of Extra Attack 2 is unoptimized, or less optimized. It can be very optimized...just for a different purpose.
I honestly lean towards green flame blade being more reliable.
There’s another thing to consider in the choice between booming blade or extra attack: you can miss. Doesn’t matter how much damage you can do with BB if your one and only attack that turn misses. With two (or more) attacks you increase the likelihood of hitting. So in a scenario where a fighter using BB attacks and misses, that’s it until their next turn. If a fighter using extra attack misses they have a second opportunity to hit and do damage. True, they can miss the second attack too, but they still have another chance to land a hit
For the Eldritch Knight. You can use Lesser War Magic + Eldritch Strike. Or spam Extra Attack if the Dice Gods don't want any business in luck. lol
Goblin Armorer Artificer in Guardian armor.
Booming Blade with the Gauntlets that give Disadvantage if the target attacks someone else and Bonus Action Disengage.
I've always wanted to find the "best" build which uses booming blade. Here's my findings:
-You want a martial with no extra attack, because you want armor and high hit points, but do not want 50% of your power budget being eaten by something you won't use. That means cleric, rogue, hexblade, or artillerist/alchemist.
-There's a combo of feats which really works well with booming blade: crusher/warcaster/polearm master + a quarterstaff. Crusher pushes enemies away, meaning they have to move towards you to hit you, unless they have 10ft reach. Warcaster lets you get a second booming blade per round as an opportunity attack, and polearm master makes it much more likely for you to get those opportunity attacks because the enemy provokes it if they try to get close to you - at which point you can push them back for a second round of secondary damage. With a variant human or a Tasha custom race, you can get this build online at 8th level, and already get some decent mileage out of it from 4th level.
-You want as many "1/turn" rather than "1/hit" damage boosts. That means VGM Aasimars, eldritch smite, sneak attack, and to a lesser extent smite spells such as searing smite
Unfortunately, sneak attack and crusher are a non-starter, there are no finesse bludgeoning weapons in the game. Same with sneak attack/polearm master.
Artillerist *is* a pretty good one. You get medium armor + shields, the shield spell, and the protector turret, which makes you extremely tanky. And then you get a good 1/cast damage boost at level 5. Not to mention you can create your own magic weapons and armors for extreme tankiness. The one issue is, artificers get a LOT out of their INT modifier, so being MAD really hurts them badly.
Hexblade is, as always, a good pick. You get medium armor + shields, very limited uses of the shield spell, and the spirit shroud spell, but the main attraction is SADness and eldritch smite. The thing about hexblade is, they get two very good per-hit bonuses, hexblade's curse and lifedrinker. So instead of picking 3 feats, you're usually better off either getting multiattack + GWM/SS, or spamming eldritch blast, which feels pretty bad.
For clerics, there's a bunch of good options. Nature domain gets access to shillelagh for SADness, war domain's channel divinity can turn a missed booming blade into a hit and basically guarantees your DPR, peace/twilight are OP as usual, forge gets searing smite, etc... And all of them get heavy armor. You can use the optional class feature Blessed Strikes, which doesn't care whether or not booming blade is a cleric cantrip. All that's left is getting that cantrip to begin with, and there's a few options for that, ranging from taking a 1 level dip in a class that gets it, taking a magic initiate feat, to being a high elf.
Overall, all of those are still going to be noticeably weaker than a straight up martial with a big ole greatsword and GWM. You do get a few extra things to to on the side, on account of being a martial, and the gish aesthetic is just chef's kiss, but it's definitely one of those builds where even scratching the bottom of the barrel for every single bonus you can find, you still end up with only something that's just barely usable.
Another build that kind of "just works", is bladesinger. Just, bladesinger, by itself. You're tanky (AC of 13+dex+int, shield spell, etc...), you're mobile, you get a multiattack with a cantrip inside of it, and you're **a wizard**.
Very useful information, thank you. I have been contemplating taking my Psi Warrior a couple levels into wizard and was trying to decide if I wanted extra attack or booming blade first. I might just stick with my current class and use feats to get spells.
It also depends on how metagamey your DM is. Does the creature automatically know it shouldn’t move once it’s hit with a booming blade? Or does your DM take the position that if a creature isn’t intelligent, it’s not a spell caster, or they haven’t seen the spell used against themselves or another creature then that creature should have no idea that it’s not supposed to move?
Very valid point. For me, I follow your example, but for especially stupid enemies like zombies that are not being actively directed by a necromancer, I let them continue walking if that achieves their initial goal. Feels like good roleplay to me, and someone who went warcaster for the BB interaction gets to feel great about it
This is definitely a grey area. It all depends on what it looks like or feels like to be surrounded by the rider effect. If the enemy can feel it pulling at them or if they could tell it would hurt to push forward or if it’s a more hidden booby trap type of effect like they know there’s something there but not sure what will happen or what could trigger an effect. Beasts generally have 3 or less Int and I’m pretty confident they would stop moving if they felt magic pulling at them or the beginnings of pain from moving.
@@jonathanwynes2542 that interpretation of the rider effect is stretching it a bit, don't you think? Since to feel the pain, per the spell, the rider would have triggered already. So this interpretation is out the window. Pulling would imply some form of restrainment, where does it come from?
Sure, after being affected once one can argue that a beast, if not 'bloodlusted', can recognize the effect, but can it put 1 and 1 together? That it was the movement and not simply delayed? Imo you give too much credit to a random beast.
Sometimes people make the mistake of thinking like you don't experience what's going on. Imagine this scenario. You have a character that is bending backwards really far. You personally know that will break your back. Let's imagine we have a character that has never experienced anyone see a back bent so far it breaks the person. Would it be logical to assume that as this character starts bending their back, it would continue until it's broken simply because it doesn't have knowledge ahead of time? No, absolutely not. Even if they don't understand the concept of a breaking back, they can start to feel the pain BEFORE the back is broken.
Okay, that was a pretty lame scenario, so lets use a better one. Imagine a metal object that you have never seen before. You start to touch it, but you feel immense heat that will burn your hand. You pull your hand away before it hurts you. This is how I imagine booming blade. You start to move, but you feel the pain that is going to happen, so you have a choice to not hurt yourself. Just like a limb that is suffering and you can't move it. To move it hurts badly, so you take a moment to massage the muscles rather than attempt a movement that is just going to put you in pain.
We D&D players need to stop thinking about this game as if the characters as video game characters that don't respond to standing in fire. By not being a video game, we can make it more realistic and have characters respond as they should, not the way a video game character would. We don't need advance knowledge to prevent taking extra damage. The character can feel what is happening to their body and respond accordingly EVEN IF we don't feel it.
@@jfast8256 I agree in general. The problem with BB, is that the effect is outside most people's experience. It's not clear from the spell just how the "boom" interacts with reality. What does "sheathed in booming energy" feel like? Is it a visible ripple of sound that hurts if you reach toward it? (Like your heated metal example) Or is it mostly invisible?
the fact that the spell also only works if you willingly move, breaks the suspension of disbelief for it being an effect expressed in "real world" terms. If someone were to press your hand against your will against the hot metal, it'd still burn you. But if someone pushes you through the sheath of booming energy, nothing happens. This sort of design choice takes players focus away from how an effect might work in reality, and pushes them to concentrate on the "game" elements (for better or worse).
Since I'm playing with an alternate rule set, Giffyglyph's Darker Dungeons, booming blade ends up working out in my favor. Part of this rule set is a set of blacklisted feats that DMs shouldn't allow players to take, which includes Great Weapon Master. Im glad it's a requirement too, because it really does make builds so bland and stale when you see the same broken feats pop up in every character.
Anyway, I'm playing an armorer artificer so I'm doing 2d8+10 with two thunder gauntlet attacks. With BB, I do 3d8+5 and my target has disadvantage on attack roles against everyone but me. So with the mobile feat, I can mvoe away and then I either get an extra 3d8 tuunder damage or I get to force my opponent to waste their turn. Those are both pretty great options for a cantrip. And I have my homunculus dealing extra damage with a magic missile SSI. Or if I get Dimir Gloves, then I can get the two attacks anyway thanks to two booming blades.
I'm just happy that at least the build is viable thanks to the ban on some feats like GWM.
After monsters of the multiverse ,Kobold swashbuckler probably makes the best use of starting with booming blade .using draconic cry as your bonus to give advantage and no need to disengage
Booming blade works pretty well in concept for a barbarian/sorcerer character (like my attempt to make a meme-build of mine a bit more serious, abyssal tiefling barb./sorc., both wild magic subclasses [originally with more random-effect-having classes]). Lightning lure to get the enemy close (or simply advancing) + quickened spell booming blade to dissuade the enemy from attacking allies seems a decent way to fulfill the tank role.
My favorite use of Booming Blade has been with my dwarven Artificer/Battle Smith using a warhammer and the Repulsion Shield that he has made. Hit the enemy w/a booming blade warhammer attack, then wait for the enemy to hit you. Boom, trigger Repulsion Shield and knock them back 15 feet. "Come get me, orcie!" If they move, extra damage kicks in. If they have multi-attack, the Repulsion Shield (as a reaction) kicks in, moves them out of melee combat range and disrupts their attack sequence.
Hexblade swashbucklers over here grinning.
Just building a dwarf sorcerer with a maul and the crusher feat to push people away. Looking forward to playing it :-)
The Telekinetic feat allows you to attempt to push away opponents as a Bonus Action after hitting with Booming Blade. If they attempt to move back towards you, or towards an ally, then they take the extra damage.
This is interesting and I broadly agree with your conclusions. Personally, I homebrew that EKs get the same style of Extra Attack that Bladesingers get, as I think it just makes sense.
I do want to ask, though, as last night our Warforged Rune Knight reached level 5. He had been using Green Flame Blade up until now and was excited to get extra attack, but then realized he would have to decide between which to use and wasn’t sure which was better since he liked GFB thematically and for RP, but Extra Attack also has benefits for him as he has a 20 in Strength and will be using a big weapon, in addition to other damage bonuses. I initially told him there probably wouldn’t be much of a point in using GFB as regularly any more, if at all, though I think after watching this video, the strategy would depend on whether or not there are enough creatures nearby that provoking the secondary damage would make a big difference.
I guess my question would be how does this calculation change for a spell like GFB?
My DM is awesome and if you have booming blade it's flavored to be your blade breaking the sound barrier, also it has to be used on the first attack that hits. That way your fighter still gets the extra attacks of it's class
With polearm mastery, you chance of actually getting the bonus damage from Booming Blade is less since you might miss and not get it. This would make Booming Blade look a little better. This should be a part of the calculation. Also, a use of Booming Blade is to glue an opponent to you. They could move to engage one of your allies, but then take Booming Blade damage. I feel this use is the most important part of Booming Blade - but this use is situational.
Eldritch Knight + Feats: "I just let them willingly walk into the Booming Cage and/or burn them on top of Green Flame with Adv from Eldritch Strike. As I use Lesser War Magic, Dual Wielder, or Action Surge Extra Attack with Booming. Then Warcaster up either spell while every Melee Weapon Attack applies Eldritch Strike."
Fighter/Sorcerer: "Same here but with Meta Magic + Extra Attacks."
Sorcerer: "Just Meta Magic for Booming on top of Green Flame."
Artificer Armorer - use sword to booming blade, then use Boots of the Winding Path to teleport out. No attack of opportunity, and if they want to hit you, they have to take damage.
Its very worth mentioning that if you got booming blade via a wizard dip of magic initiate, you have access to find familiar which tilts the math more in favour of booming blade. Only having one attack to boost with advantage is way better for booming blade users
As far as I'm concerned the main use for booming blade is builds that don't have extra attack, and don't have a bonus action tied to strictly the attack action--stuff like clerics. Melee rogues if you can manage to use the focused aim feature.
(For examples of how melee rogue might work, maybe your DM lets you get away with being mounted and having the mount move cause "you didn't use your movement". Or failing that, Scout Rogue being able to move as a reaction can set up focused aim booming blades decently often, though they may want a 1 level dip to pick up some AC so that they can stand in melee).
Hey Chris, love your videos and content. Here's a thought I had and seems to work according to RAW:
If I have both the Sentinel and War Caster feats and the enemy moves away from me it provokes an AoO from my Sentinal feat regardless of whether or not it takes the disengage action, but my Warcaster feat allows me to alternatively cast a spell if it's 1 action casting time and only targets the AoO provoker.
I cast Booming Blade doing all the stuff and damage that I can get away with doing with that spell, and since I alternatively used my reaction to cast a spell instead of taking a weapon AoO that means I did not take an AoO, and therefore the Sentinel feature of reducing a target's movement to 0 when hitting it with an AoO doesn't trigger that means right after my reaction spell, Booming Blade is cast, the target will finish it's already stated movement which triggered my Warcaster feat in the 1st place and move away from me... that will trigger the Booming Blade's secondary damage automatically.
The target cannot change it's already performed action of moving away which triggered your ability to cast Booming Blade in the 1st place, so it auto triggers the secondary damage as it moves away. After that it can stop 10 feet away from you or continue moving or whatever. It doesn't really matter as the all the damage, primary and secondary, from Booming Blade has already occurred.
Good luck and have fun!
Where does it say he cannot stop his movement after the AoO? If you hit with sentinel it automatically stops it so why should he not be able to do so freely? If the circumstance set for your move change surely you can stop moving.
I agree with JC's ruling on this. The reaction occurs before they leave your reach, therefore they can choose not to move. They have not "already performed" the [movement] because then they'd be out of your range.
@@totalutilitarian3292
Sentinel: "When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn."
War Caster: "When a hostile creature's movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."
Sentinel's root effect relies on making an opportunity attack. War Caster explicitly replaces the opportunity attack. Sentinel stops it automatically because it's a feature of the feat. See MrKostrom's comment for why they would not be able to stop moving.
EDIT: Somehow I read his comment wrong. Amazing. 10/10. Shot myself right in the foot.
The reason i love the blade cantrips, is for characters without extra attack. Rogue, or warlock who wants to take a different invocation. Bard, or cleric. Much fun with a blade cantrip.
I use booming blade on my tempest cleric. It's thematic and matches well the plus 1d8 you gain at level 8. Booming blade is basically a 8th level ability you gain at level 4. At 8th level I'm hitting 3d8+4 (I have gauntlets of ogre power). 11th 4d8+4 and 17th 5d8+4. In a critical I could use my channel divinity do deal 2d8+64+4 damage. It's not a martial focused build. I'm a Frontline caster, but it's still better than casting sacred Flame.
I think when talking dpr for booming blade it's probably best to just state the with or without secondary damage figures, since as you mentioned you can usually tell if you'll get it or not.
Call me crazy but I feel like all of the Gish subclasses should have a "second attack can be substituted for a cantrip " feature. Swords bard, Hexblade, EK, Bladesinger and so on.
And I think that feature is already busted on bladesinger. Cantrips already scale. Don't make the Gish subclasses' resource-free martial damage be near that of a pure martial character. That would be way out of balance. You are already a full caster with AC comparable to a martial. The Gish subclasses are supposed to be not-helpless in melee, not best pure martials at their specialty.
@@DvirPick you aren't wrong but I want my cake and want too eat it too!
Hey Chris, I noticed you weren't (at least) always taking taking the chance to hit into account when comparing damage. You need to do that to determine average damage for the round. You can't simply say, 'dueling gives you +2 damage for each attack so +4 damage per round'.
Booming blade, the rogue and sorcadin spell!
There's a reason Booming Blade is a lvl1 cantrip, and multiattack is at least lvl5 feature.
My observations:
1. I find that BB is often best used with War Caster, since in that said case, you get to replace your one opportunity attack with a spell that has 1 action.
2. I find that BB often only works better when the PC only gets one attack and then can disengage as a BA (e.g., Rogues via Cunning Action).
3. As a general point of notice, I've noticed that once PC's hit tier 2 and above, monster tactics tend to "shift" in a more intelligent direction. In a semi-practical world setting, where the monsters aren't stupid (or are for lack of a phrase, are "less stupid"), once they feel the effects of BB, they're much less inclined to use their actual movement in those situations, and instead would (as suggested by you) make use of either minor teleportation or a ranged attack of some sort to compensate for lack of movement.
4. In circumstances involving the Bladesinger at tier 2 and above, where cantrip casting can be done as a part of the same attack action, then sure, BB can eek out some extra damage if:
A. You hit with your extra attack, and
B. The creature willingly moves after said attack, while not under any form of duress.
But those instances are generally the exception, and not the rule.
{This, I think, is what makes BB relatively weak; the requirement for "willing" movement from the creature to conduct non-spell based movement in order to trigger extra damage.}
5. As someone mentioned earlier, I think you may have accidentally left out some GWM math (the to-hit penalties in this case) in doing your calculations, as well as other sources of on-board damage associated with attacks (e.g., Eldritch Smite, Improved Divine Smite, etc.). A minor oversight, but one of which, I think, only strengthens the argument in favor of extra attack over a single attempt at BB.
{In saying that, I wonder about situations involving the Quicken Metamagic feat during a person's BA (more aptly, if it can be done in order to allow for an attack, in order to eek out more damage), notwithstanding any prepared actions prior to.}
In general, if you're not either a Bladesinger, or in a class that gets an extra attack, then BB is the go-to option. Otherwise, extra attack outclasses BB convincingly.
I feel like there is only one use for booming blade: if you are a gish with reach weapon, warcaster and poleatm master feats, you counterattack your enemies on the distance out of their reach with booming blade reaction attack, and if they CHOOSE to go on attacking, they get thunder damage as well.
Melee Sorcerers (generally Hexblade Sorlocks or some stranger multiclass build) can get a lot of extra damage with a Quickened or Twinned Booming Blade/GFB. It's not what you want to rely on, but when you need it, it's a nice trick.
Thematically it is pretty awesome. Mechanically, you might as well just focus on Eldritch Blast (with the various modifiers) and Quickening that - much safer so less resources expended for similar results.
Perhaps slightly off topic...I never hear anything about Sword Burst, I think it's cool and would like to learn it's strengths and weaknesses and how to make the most of it...here's hoping you make a video about it 🤞🏼
Booming Blade is useless to any character that has the Extra Attack feature, with the exception of characters with the War Caster feat (and that's situational damage).
But this was probably made for spellcasters to give them an extra option when the enemy gets close. They can boost their abysmally low melee damage, and if they enemy tries to chase them they take extra damage and may likely die (the extra damage is high for low level enemies). A caster with Shadow Blade and Booming Blade is no joke.
It may be a bonus for melee characters with the Extra Attack only in certain cases like the high level character I am playing now (6 Devotion Paladin, 5 Hexblade Warlock, 6 Divine Soul Sorcerer), and that's because I can make the 2 attacks and then use the Quickened Spell metamagic to cast Booming Blade as a Bonus action for a 3rd attack with all the extra benefits plus one more smite...
For the Eldritch Knight + Feats. Blooming + Green Flame stack is pretty good. Just use Warcaster if Action Surge is a resource to save.
I would avoid Casting these Cantrips as an Action unless you have Action Surge ready to use. Just cast both under Warcaster. Especially Booming since it lasts 1 turn, with Green Flame stacking DPR on to it, during your turn.
Fighter/Sorcerer can do this better and the Eldritch Knight has Lesser War Magic + Eldritch Strike.
For what it’s worth (and I know that’s not much) i’ve always ruled at that dissonant whispers and command spells would trigger the effect of booming blade at my table. Basically if the enemy had to put 1 foot in front of the other they take the damage because mechanically that makes sense imo. If they are shoved or otherwise moved maybe with telepathy then they don’t take the damage, similar to opportunity attack provocation. The number of times this is become a problem is zero for me at least 🤷♂️ .
I think booming blade is a good incentive for the enemy to stay there and attack you. And that's a minor control option you wouldn't get with extra attack. As an eldritch knight with high ac and warcaster, I want the enemy to focus me and the secondary damage of two booming blades is a good motivation for a free cantrip. The dpr is lower, but the enemy behavior has values as well
4:20 You cannot safely move out of combat with the Mobile feat because you did not perform a melee attack, you cast a spell (Booming Blade). I hope i'm wrong. I am wrong. The spell says you make a melee attack, even though it is a spell. They do synergize. I have learned.
I recently finished off Acererack in Tomb of Horrors with the extra damage from booming blade. It was a magical moment.
I think part of the issue with booming blade's secondary damage is the dm playing the enemy as if they know they'll take extra damage from moving. How common is the booming blade cantrip that a standard bandit would recognize it and switch to ranged attacks?
Also if played by strict rules interpretations, enemy would likely need to waste a turn readying weapons.
I mean, it's a cantrip.
Cantrips aren't that rare.
Recognizing it quickly on the spot is probably outside the purview of a first level street thug, but if a bandit has made it to third level, they probably know what it is.
I think you could also interpret that you feel a bit of pain by trying to move and stop before moving far enough. It's so nebulous honestly. That's TTRPGs though!
If the enemy is a humanoid and making more than one attack per turn they are experienced enough to recognize BB. Plus BB's flavour description clearly indicates that the target knows something is up - "surrounded in booming energy". They only need to trigger it once in their life to know what that means if they experience it again.
Agree with your conclusion, but this does show that the games you play in are very different than the ones I play or run. I'd never assume a 50% chance of the secondary damage -- that just doesn't happen in games I play. You did say you're now seeing below that, but I am used to way below that. Without planning to make the target move, I'm used to that secondary damage approaching 0. It does make the answer to the question posed much easier to figure.
Bladesingers- "Why not Both"
I think you are being INCREDIBLY generous by saying you get the secondary damage 50% of the time. In my experience 10% is probably closer to reality.
My Battlemaster/War Wizard is a fan of dropping Sickening Radiance, then combining Booming Blade with Pushing Attack.
Would love to see a breakdown for a Hexblade Pact of the Blade pure Warlock where this discussion is very relevant but has additional things to consider like Eldritch Blast scaling. I'm using a Greatsword so my Green Flame Blade seems basically useless after level 5 when I got Thirsting Blade for Extra Attack on a heavy weapon such as mine. So I think I know I'm coming out ahead vs either melee cantrip until level 11, but then it gets more complicated because Hexblade never gets a third weapon attack, but you do get a third beam of Eldritch Blast at level 11. I have 18 CHA and am considering grabbing GWM at level 8 instead of capping my stat. I am not good at DPR math but to me it seems I may actually need GWM at higher levels if I don't want Eldritch Blast to outscale damage from my Greatsword pact weapon? I just started using Spirit Shroud at Warlock level 6 for 1d8 extra damage per hit having dropped Hex for now. I think the move after level 7 is Shadow of Moil combined with Great Weapon Master at level 8. But I do wonder how all the math looks after level 11 or 12 or so with EB scaling up again. But then you can also take Lifedrinker at level 12 for an extra +5 necrotic damage per hit if you have capped Charisma. So a lot of moving pieces. Could make for another good video similar to this one.
I think part of it depends on whether you are using war caster and can afford 5 levels in an extra attack class. A war caster'd booming blade is in all aspects better than any plain weapon opportunity attack, and if going 5 levels into a multiclass doesn't work for you, then the opportunity cost of getting extra attack isn't worth it.
True, but unless you are constantly concentrating on a spell, you're probably better off taking Sentinel for more reliable reaction attacks than Warcaster.
@@agilemind6241 warcaster has 1 or 2 other benefits
I use Booming blade on my Swashbuckler Tabaxi rogue. The ability to run 120ft in a single round (movement, BA Dash, feline agility), hit a creature for 2d8 + 3d6 + 2d8 at level 5. I was lucky enough to find a +2 sword and just maxed my Dex so I have a higher chance of hitting now. Really sucks when you do miss, but when it works its sooo good.
I'm currently playing a swashbuckler3/genie (efreeti) warlock 2. Without eldritch blast and going with booming blade(+sneak attack) + disengage/fancy footwork... and my very generous DM allowed me to expend my ALL my accumulated loot to get a Illusionists bracers (copy a cantrip from action with bonus action...). Just got it and have not tested in combat, just double mage hand for shenanigans...
I'm curious about yourview on this character: A Warforged Artificer (Armorer) with the Crusher Feat. He can use his fists which count as bludgeoning weapons which will cause the enemy to move 5 ft away. Thanks to the Thunder Gauntlets, the enemy will be "taunted" to attack you or have a disadvantage to attack your friends. Wouldn't Booming Blade be a nice option here? Or use the booming blade on a tripped opponent?
I think you misunderstand how the Armorer features work. If you're attacking with your fists, you're doing 1+STR bludgeoning damage. If you attack with the gauntlets, then you do 1d8+INT thunder damage and apply the taunting effect. You can't combine bludgeoning damage with your gauntlets.
*Arcane Armor*
> Each model includes a special weapon. When you attack with that weapon, you can add your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, to the attack and damage rolls.
> Thunder Gauntlets. Each of the armor's gauntlets counts as a simple melee weapon while you aren't holding anything in it, and it deals 1d8 thunder damage on a hit. A creature hit by the gauntlet has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn, as the armor magically emits a distracting pulse when the creature attacks someone else.
@@AnaseSkyrider damn you are right. We have been using it wrong the whole time. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
@@Entifidich No problem. I'd ask for a feat refund. Sentinel is a good one if you're really going for guardian. Maybe Mobile instead if you want the free disengage. Extra Attack plays nicer with Mobile since two attacks lets you disengage with two targets if you hit them both. Otherwise, take your pick of the standout artificer feats like Telekinetic, Telepathic, or Fey-Touched. If your DM treats Magic Initiate like other spell feats, including Artificer Initiate, and lets you use artificer spell slots on Wizard spells, then it's also a good way to get Shield.
I should note as well: an unarmed strike does not have to be with your fists. You can attack with any body part, in theory. Features like natural weapons are what give you guidelines on stuff like needing an unoccupied hand to attack with claws, assuming the weapon is a claw and not fangs. So you can still 'headbutt' the enemy with Crusher, you just need a decent STR score to attack with, unless you wanted to do something interesting like multiclass with Monk to get Martial Arts for 1d4 DEX attacks. Unfortunately, you need proficiency with a martial weapon (something Armorer doesn't get) to get Fighting Initiate to pick up Unarmed Fighting. Tavern Brawler is still an option.
@TheAIGoreRhythm999 your wish has been granted
Hah, I was just putting together some calculations comparing attacks vs attack cantrips!
I roughly came to the same conclusion: Extra Attack is much more reliable, but there are circumstances where the cantrip can be useful. I think Defenders will probably get more mileage out of attack cantrips than max DPR Striker. I'd also like to highlight the interaction between Booming Blade, War Caster, and Sentinel to make the most of your Reaction attack if you have the spare feats lying around.
I agree that your assumption for Booming Blade's proc chance is very generous, and I wish that unreliability would come up more often in discussions on this topic.
Personally, I've found Green-Flame Blade much more reliable in my games at low/mid-tier, despite the damage type and extra enemies required. Crusher can be a decent way to ensure GFB's extra damage, but make sure you discuss it with your GM beforehand since that that order of operations is up for interpretation.
It should be noted that Sentinel only contributes to that combo because it makes Disengage provoke attacks. The attack you get when a creature attacks another ally is not stated to be an opportunity attack, but rather an event that allows you to use your reaction to make an attack. If you're tight on feats, War Caster alone will give you the most mileage.
Green flame blade is better in tier one where you are more likely to face opponents with pack tactics then fire resistance.
I love it on a melee rogue, but that's a different calculation. And if you don't need to use your bonus action for advantage twf is still a really good option to consider over bb.
My very mobile high dex Harengon wizard/cleric multiclass (Wizard X/Cleric 1), likes to use it when a single enemy chooses to single me out. In all other cases, I will generally resort to ranged cantrips or spells.
My Tabaxi Bladesinger "Both? Both is good."
Something which wasn't considered but probably doesn't change the outcome that much. Many effects provide advantage on a single weapon attack: familiar taking the help action is the most relevant case given it often comes hand in hand with booming blade through spellcasting. In these cases, the single weapon attack made by booming blade is a little better than the usual case as you have a higher hit rate on the stronger attack. Additionally the crit chance is higher and pairs well with the extra dice damage for the primary booming blade damage.
But ultimately I don't think it changes the math that much. What booming blade does well however is make waiting for extra attack less painful on multiclassing builds. E.g. dipping spellcasting before reaching lvl 5 with a martial class. Soradin comes to mind, but I've personally got experience dipping wizard on eldritch knight. Not having extra attack hurts, however having an EK with mobile, owl familiar and booming blade is still a very fun build in my experience, and very satisfying on the occasions where a crit happens.
I feel like this question is most relevant for "tank" builds that have sword and shield and want to deal a bit more damage to feel like they are contributing to the team. It's tough seeing the dps do 100 pts of damage on their turn and the tank does ~30. True they didnt optimize for it, but sometimes not every enemy group needs a dedicated tank. Paladins, warlocks, and barbarians have extra damage riders (and clerics...) to make their weapon attacks deal more damage at higher levels. Fighters get extra extra attack. So sword bards, monks, artificers and rangers are really the only ones who might need to decide on this. Booming blade doesnt require optimized spellcasting to be effective.
Also for archer builds that get stuck in melee with no easy escape
I recently considered this video's very topic because I'm playing a fresh level 5 Armorer Artificer (Guardian), meant to be 'the tank', and he doesn't get much extra rider damage like you mentioned. Probably a good example for the 'tank' role that's doing suboptimal damage. I've considered picking up Booming Blade on my next level-up.
Assume your gauntlets count as 'a weapon worth at least 1 sp' because you attack using the weapons that are *part of your armor* which does have value. I'm lazy so I'm not factoring fumbles and crits into this. If you think it's likely to significantly swing this data, go for it.
*Level 1-4*
Point-buy. INT: 15 [base] +1 [VHuman] +2 [lv4 ASI] = 18 INT. VHuman feat could be a half-feat like Fey-Touched or Telekinetic; or Sentinel, Mobile, etc. If you take a half-feat here, you're at 19 INT and could take another half-feat at level 8, or if you take a regular feat then you could still be at 20 INT from a regular ASI. If you get a +2 INT from a racial instead, that leaves you in the same position of 19 INT then taking a half-feat at level 8.
I'm going with the VHuman with two half-feat options since that's what I did when I made my lv5 character (got a free extra feat because my DM likes feats, but that's not included here because that's a houserule).
*Level 5*
19 INT, PB is +3. Gauntlet does 1d8+4 = 8.5 average damage per hit. You have a +7 to hit against an average CR 5's 15 AC, for 65% hit chance. Booming Blade just adds d8s, so 4.5 average per d8.
Extra Attack: 8.5×0.65 + 8.5×0.65 = 5.53 + 5.53 = 11.06 damage per round
Booming Blade: (8.5+4.5)×0.65 = 8.45 damage per round.
Target moves half the time: 8.45 + (9/2)×0.65 = 8.45 + 2.93 = 11.38 damage per round
Target moves all the time: 8.45 + 9×0.65 = 8.45 + 5.85 = 14.3 damage per round
If you have the Enhanced Weapon infusion, this gets better for Extra Attack due to the bonus damage being added on the 2nd attack that's only added once to Booming Blade. It would be 0.65 more damage for Extra Attack.
*Level 11*
20 INT, PB is +4. We have armor modifications by now, so assume the improved Enhanced Weapon for +2 to attack and damage. Gauntlet does 1d8+7 = 11.5 average damage per hit. You have +11 to hit against an average CR 11's 17 AC, for 75% hit chance. Because it's a Treantmonk video, though, I'm sticking with 65% hit.
Extra Attack: 11.5×0.65 + 11.5×0.65 = 7.48 + 7.48 = 14.96 damage per round
Booming Blade: (11.5+9)×0.65 = 13.33 damage per round
Target moves half the time: 13.33 + (13.5/2)×0.65 = 13.33 + 4.39 = 17.72 damage per round
Target moves all the time: 13.33 + 13.5×0.65 = 13.33 + 8.78 = 22.11 damage per round
*Conclusion*
Because all you're gaining from Extra Attack at this level is going from +4 to +7 for two attacks, all you're adding is 6×0.65 = 3.9 DPR. Booming Blade is adding another 1d8 for 4.5×0.65 = 2.93 DPR. But the added D8s from the occasional triggering of Booming Blade outmatches this minor difference.
And when you reach level 17, it becomes even more in Booming Blade's favor since our DPR just punching can't really go up from here unless we multiclass or take a feat to get the Dueling fighting style [EDIT: You'd need a martial weapon proficiency, which Armorer doesn't have]. Sentinel is situationally helpful here, combining it with Warcaster could make Booming Blade even more potent.
Perhaps an ability like Hunter's Mark or Hex could be thrown on (say, via Fey-Touched) to get some more on-hit damaging effects to boost this DPR a little bit more, and would favor Extra Attack a bit more. Would be 1d6×0.65 = 2.3 damage per round with booming blade, 4.6 with extra attack.
@@AnaseSkyrider duel wielder feat so you can 2 weapon fight with the non-light gauntlets would really skew this in favour of not cantripping. likewise shield master for a shove prone for advantage in between your first and second extra attack.
@@samuelbroad11 I'd prefer the shield for the +2 AC, +3 with Repulsion Shield next level, especially because I don't think both gauntlets can be infused so the 2nd would hit less often for less damage. If you're talking with infusions at level 11, that's a missing +2 to attack and damage, so 55% hit chance, for (1d8+5)×0.55 = 5.23 DPR.
EDIT: And you can't add your ability damage to the 2nd attack without the fighting style, so that's actually just 1d8×0.55 = 2.48 DPR. The +1 AC from Dual Wielder sorta helps too, but I'd still be missing +2 AC.
A homunculus servant doing (1d4 + 3[PB]) × 0.65 = 3.6 DPR isn't exactly bad DPR here, considering PAM giving you 1d4+STR damage. Granted, that's boosted by the GWM combo, but GWM gets most of its power when you have advantage.
Shield Master also does regular shoves which requires you to not dump STR or would force you to use the Magical Strength infusion instead of getting a +2 defense infusion, and RAW you have to complete both attacks before you can use the bonus action shove, so it might not even apply until next round if the target simply *stands up* (which doesn't provoke an attack).
@@AnaseSkyrider yeah, there's been some discussion about when the shield shove bonus can happen, understood. Standard shields are great! Homunculus are handy.
I disagree about dissonant whispers etc, the magic influences them to make the choice, so they are willing. But with say command, if they know what will happen they dont have to follow a command that is directly harmful showing it is them making the choice while being influenced by the magic.