Here in Germany we are playing all to the WPA rules, no matter what league or tournament you play. It really confused me, when I found out about all the different rules you are using in the US. Some even make the game more difficult for amateurs.
As a very amateur but competitive pool player, it's the most annoying thing ever to go to a bar and have to go over every rule before you play someone you just meet. I have literally never been to a pool hall where they play the rules as they should be. Ridiculous.
Hi @Dr. Dave. Here is a suggestion. As pool is getting more and more traction on social media, I think it would be beneficial to all of us to have designated ambassadors of pool (such as yourself), in order to organize public opinion, drive much needed change, carry weight (based on your recognition/reputation), and put pressure on leagues. I'm sure other social media folks would be delighted to help you and all of us grow the sport and make it a more knowledgeable and enjoyable game for everyone. Thoughts?
I try to do these things already, partly through my involvement with the BCA and PBIA and through my posting of videos like this. FYI, I forwarded my video to the VNEA President and Rules Committee. Hopefully, it will help encourage them to make the recommended changes.
@@timanderson3136 he probably didn’t make it up, since I have also seen some people say the same to me about the “rules from where they’ve always played”, but nevertheless, no point in agreeing to a rule that make absolutely no sense (not only to you but to all well recognized official rules)
“Leagues should be fun, not demoralizing.” Well said, Dr. Dave! My local league is challenging, but everyone has fun. Our league director also does a fantastic job setting up different leagues for different nights, whether it’s 8 or 9 ball, singles, doubles, or scotch doubles, and hosts many local tournaments throughout the year. I may not always win, but I’m always learning, and having a good time doing so!
Agree 100%. Another thing that I hate on leagues is the handicap system. In APA, once you level up in 9 ball, it's extremely difficult to win. Play a SL9 against a SL1 (75 balls vs 14 balls)... it's ugly. Takes all the fun out of the game for the SL9 player.
Dave, as a head ref with ACS, I cannot agree more with this. Excellent video as always. I wish the leagues would follow the WPA rules. I feel so bad for players when they commit a foul because of a league rule difference. As I ref ACS only, I see lots of players taking ball in hand anywhere on the table after the break, not knowing that applies to BCAPL only. FYI, I do not agree with this rule, it's only benefit is to high level players who will most certainly run out.
i thought APA was the only one who had that weird "in the kitchen ball in hand after the break" rule.. turns out it's the norm and only applies to BCAPL? i never noticed before. i dont agree with that rule either.
@@breakthecode4047 bars hardly ever have ball in hand. But ball in hand is crucial. Its a penalty for nonsense in the game. Imagine no penalty for walking around with the ball in basketball? Playing pool without ball in hand is like playing basketball without calling travel. What happens in a bar if it's my turn, I have no shot so I just push the ball and lock it up with another ball? Nothing. That's a defensive play. But in any standard ruleset you have to work for that defensive play, otherwise you get a penalty - ball in hand. Which you do not want to do. It's part of a structured ruleset.
@@lugoheriberto that analogy does not line up at all though. Theres a huge difference in what allows ball in hand and just walking around with a basketball. Point is from my end. Playing kitchen in fact makes the game more skillful. And ball in hand does not.
@@breakthecode4047 it does line up. Bar pool has no penalties for anything. What if I hit your ball onto the rail? Does that sound like it makes sense? There's no structure at all in bar rules. Just a bunch of "you can't do that".. but no penalty for the things said you can't do. You know you have to hit your ball first. But what happens if you don't? Nothing. Nothing at all. Games all have penalties when you do something you aren't allowed to do. Any game, any sport. Except for bar pool. Ball in hand is intentionally lethal. But I've given ball in hand on purpose many times, as part of strategy. I'll accept the penalty. If you renig in spades and get caught you auto lose 3 books. That's a lethal penalty also. Imagine paying spades or any game with no penalty. Makes no sense in even playing.
Hey saw you out there at the VNEA--pretty cool... a rule I'd like to see changed is allowing for pattern racking. We had an opponent soft break a patterned rack leaving all the solids in a small cluster and all stripes out for an easy, unskilled run giving his team a 10-0 victory. Pattern racking should be prohibited.
@@leonardhpls6 - I asked a ref. He said pattern racking was allowed. I went and spoke to the head ref table and they affirmed it being permissible as well.
@@mike2687 it is prohibited, check out Dave's video about it, it talks about it in depth with Corey's pattern rack. ua-cam.com/video/kkAlntQrFo8/v-deo.html
@@ryanmoon05 - that’s surprising and disappointing to hear because I left mid match during the team event for those questions (just over 2 weeks ago) because we were going to call a ref to look at the racks if we noticed another one racked the same.
The "take what you make" break rule for APA 8-ball is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever encountered in literally decades of shooting pool. All that rule does is make 8-ball more frustrating, no matter if you're a 2 or a 7 in the APA. Let's say I make three stripes on the break, but then I get snookered behind a solid and have no shot on a stripe afterwards. Why should I be punished and have to kick at a stripe instead of being rewarded with choice after a nice break where I potted three balls? The other APA rule that I don't like is the point system for 9-ball. Why not play races for 9-ball like you do for 8-ball? There's been plenty of matches where I narrowly lost the point race, even though I made WAY more 9-balls than my opponent because they either couldn't get proper shape on it or missed the shot under pressure. League nights would finish faster too if 9-ball was done using a standard race instead of the point system.
I agree with you the take what you get rule in APA needing a change. I personally like the 9ball points over race. Mostly because if an accidental or early pocket of the 9 it's only 2 points instead of a won game. I've personally avoided pocketing the 9 early because it's more points to run out. Granted I'm only an APA 4.
Tap league uses a race rather than the point system but you can't fluke the 9 in and win. You have to call the 9 ball. If you don't call it then it's spotted and you continue with the rack.
"c140075" mentions a TAP League variant. How many variants are there? Without discussing any certain rule, and as a former TAP league operator, I assumed early-on that these leagues have to insert quirks in their rules as a way to avoid copyright/patent infringement. This might be regardless of if a given league thinks its quirk is more profitable or sportsmanlike. Several APA rules are designed to entice new membership, split teams, and tamp the best shooters.
I also do not like the "take what you make" rule because it goes against the "official rules of pool" and because it potentially puts a successful breaker at a huge disadvantage.
@@RichardBrainPoi Don't get me wrong. I understand why the APA uses the point system, as it discourages novice level players from simply smashing the balls around in hopes of potting an early 9-ball to win the rack. It helps to reduce sloppy play in a game that requires careful patterns to run out. However, I still wish the APA would adopt TAP's method of 9-ball, where you play races of racks instead of points, but you have to call the 9-ball with no slop allowed. That method minimizes the shenanigans from novices. I'm an APA 6/6 by the way. Not too bad, but not great either, LOL.
Hey Dr. Dave, you're absolutely right about trying to standardize rule sets. It can be complicated to keep the rules straight if you play one or more different leagues in a week. APA's rule set where if you unintentionally hit another ball on the table with your equipment requires that you move the ball back to the spot. This one seems to defeat the purpose of preventing the ball in hand foul, by allowing the opponent the chance to replace the ball at the previous spot.
To the best of my knowledge, the whole of South East Asia plays according to the WPA rule set. the only difference you MAY encounter between different open/official tournaments is whether the 9 is on the spot or not, but that's extremely rare. 8/10ball is exactly the same as the WPA rule set. And unlike the US, we only have 9foot pool tables or 12foot snooker tables in all the pool halls. 7foot tables are for kids birthday parties..
In Jakarta (Indonesia) we've used to have a lot of 7ft coin operated tables scattered around busy marketplace. Now, they were all gone except for pub decorations.
The marking the pocket makes a little sense to me. APA is mostly a bar league. There’s a lot of drinking going on. Marking the pocket leaves no interpretation where the ball was called and can possible help avoid drunken confrontations. My take at least. It is dumb though.
Dr. Dave, I see your point about the pocket marker on the 8 ball, and for league in APA we don't have to mark the pocket. They do however have the rule to where we do have to mark the pocket for "playoff" type scenarios (that being playoffs and high level tournaments). There is one more rule that you didn't cover in this video and that is lagging for the break. In Vegas for the APA National Team Championships, they make players lag for the break. In league, we just flip a quarter for the break. This is a really good video discussing rules and which ones should be used because like you said, a lot of pool sanctioning bodies are making up a lot of these rules.
Did you league codify that alternative patch rule in their local by-laws? League operators can make adjustments to the national rules, but it does have to be formalized.
Thank you for another great video and for providing outstanding resources! I'm glad you pointed out how large 45° actually is (you could probably infer that from something...haha). One interesting thing to me is the Open Table rule. Usually when I just shoot around (often I'll play games against myself for practice), aside from forcing myself to call all shots (including other affected balls), I also force myself to call which category of ball during an open table (and thus contacting a stripe first but pocketing/potting a solid and vice versa I would not allow). I should be using the official rules myself (and once again thank you for providing those great resources such as the rule booklet - yes I know I could just use a search engine, but you make it much easier (similar to the standing on the shoulders of giants idea). Similarly I could also just read your and Coriolis' books instead of watching your great videos, but again it's the idea of getting the information you want quicker, of course). I'm assuming the reason the different leagues having different rules is mostly politics and driven by desire for power, unfortunately. I've been in various sports leagues (including e-sports) and a lot of them have different rules and often you can tell (at least it seems) that it's a "power trip" to have differing rules. I've even seen leagues (usually the e-sports ones as they are easier to organize and get existing players to join as it doesnt' require the same level of commitment as a physical/irl sport league) created because of disagreement of rules and the league creator's desire to have their own set of rules. Anyway, again, thanks for the great video, as usual!
In my opinion touching any object ball with a shaft during a shot should be considered as a faul, the only exception if touching the ball doesn't cause it to move (the same might be related if you touch a ball with the piece of your clothes). Considering official rules (and official games), this is how we usually play for money, if such a thing happens on a friendly match well then player can pay no attention to this.
I agree with this segment. I recently came in second in a tournament because of a change of rules on the final game... At any rate thank you for all the hard work you do. I'm transferring to CSU after my sophomore year and look forward to learning from you.
You're welcome. I hope you enjoy your CSU experience. FYI, I retired from CSU a few years ago, but I still teach pool lessons and pool courses in Fort Collins.
Here's a copy and paste from the TAP pool league rule pdf. "Push Shot - If the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, pushing through the cue ball is a legal hit." It's worded in a way that would seem to indicate that push shots are actually legal. I would think pushing through is the one thing you shouldn't do with frozen balls. Hit through or stroke through, but not push through.
Agreed. That wording is less than ideal. You are allowed to hit into a frozen CB, but you are not allowed to push the CB (as with any other shot). Examples of "push" shots can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/
I've played in a VNEA league for the past 4 years and only recently heard of the marking the pocket for the 8 rule. I guess we don't bother with it where I play. And I also only found out we were a VNEA league recently as well. I just show up and play.
I wish "don't bother with it" could be made official in the rules, but it is not. See the last paragraph under "D" here: www.vnea.com/8-ball-rules.aspx
The VNEA push shot foul is probably created with the snooker rules in mind. In snooker if the target ball touching the cue ball moves in the direction that the cue ball is hit, it is considered a push shot. And in practice the cue ball must be hit in a very thin angle in terms of the touching ball, and effectively it’s smaller than 45 degrees. But in this context they should probably modify it towards the WPA rule
Everywhere should just play World Rules, in the push shot situation, what are you going to do if someone disputes whether or not you double hit it, play with a high-speed camera so you can watch every shot back?
My league has the 45 degree rule if distance is less than the width of a cue tip. This does include frozen. It is there during league matches so we don't need refs for league. It makes it simple to avoid double hits and less arguing between teams. During a tournament we have refs and that rule is not there.
Good points. I wonder if some of the dumb rules were written by people who don't really know much about pool? Another rule that's due for elimination is the APA prohibition of push out shots after the break, in 9 Ball. APA also requires you to be stuck with whatever group of balls you made on the break, in 8 Ball, unless you made both. Both rules potentially penalize a breaker needlessly, or (in 9 Ball) unjustly reward a breaker for not making a ball but burying the cue ball. Theoretically a skilled player could use that rule to his/her advantage, to get an early ball in hand.
Agree with the APA 9-ball take, push out should be allowed. The take what you make in 8-ball doesn’t bother me as much as there usually isn’t a situation where you’re stuck giving up ball in hand on the next shot.
@@mikekowalski3128 In the 8 Ball scenario, you could also be penalized by making a stripe and realizing the stripes layout is terrible, but solids are wide open. There's just no good reason for that rule.
eh, take what you make what make high level 8 ball more interesting. like 10 ball, it would force you to make more difficult shots early in the rack rather than the super boring usual scenario of trading breaks and runouts
Forgive me if you covered the following. What do you think the rule should be when a person verbally declares a numbered ball while obviously shooting at a different ball? Ala Earl Strickland accidentally calling the 2 when he meant the 10
Thank u dr dave for another great video! U and tor lowry have really helped to elevate my game and have given me the inspiration to create my own youtube channel . I ordered and have reallly learned from your book and wiil definitly utililize it in future videos i do Thanks again
I've played in leagues for more than 40 years now, and I am convinced some league organizers have their own unique rules simply because they are on some kind of power trip. Remember in elementary school when a classmate was designated The Crossing Guard and received a reflective belt to wear--and they became a bit of a tyrant? That's what I mean.
I think the main aim of the 45 degree rule is to prevent fights. Since the majority of their clientele can’t distinguish a double hit or a push, creating this technically stupid rule has a benefit if it keeps peace in a bar.
There is no chance for a double hit when the CB is frozen to the OB. A push doesn’t occur either. Now, if there is a tiny gap between the CB and OB, that is a totally different shot and a double hit is likely even at 45 degrees.
My 14.1 league has the following "cue ball only" foul rule. If you touch or move a single object ball BEFORE the shot and tell your opponent BEFORE the shot, opponent has option to replace that ball BEFORE the shot and no penalty. Otherwise it's a foul and you lose your turn. Amsterdam billiards NYC. I think this is the best approach for unrefereed matches.
Last I checked, in VNEA, if the table is open, you can claim your set of balls with a legal shot and also call a safety. I have, in one quick, yet clearly called shot, claimed my set and hooked my opponent behind my newly-claimed balls. He was not ready for that at all. Apparently some missing language in the VNEA Rules has resulted in this being legal, while not legal in WSR or BCAPL rules.
I could not agree more! Moving all league systems to the WPA standardized rules would help all leagues and all players a great deal! Thanks for another great insight Dr Dave. You say what we all are thinking once again! Also can we please have a potent governing body of pool and billiards!?... My vote for a new pool czar is Dr. Dave!
I'm 51 a Filipino living in Texas and have been playing Pool for 35 years. and have not played a competitive or money game for 15 years. The color of money is the name of the game. I don't know any of the WPA rules. We considered it a foul, for general reasons. We don't have the eyes like the slow motion in the camera, especially in money games a wrong call by a referee will cause chaos and violence in the pool hall/bar. We to hit it not exactly 45 degrees, but on an angle that won't look like a push in everybody's eyes in the pool hall. Filipino home-grown pool players are also hustlers, to make the games fair even without WPA rules we have general pool rules. Look back on old Efren Reyes video of a somewhat frozen ball, his stick angle is around 80. He carried with him by heart the rules we used back home and how not to get a foul. If WPA rules were implemented then, Efren would likely still do the same thing.
It seems to me the 45 degrees is not the angle of the cue but 45 degrees from straight on the frozen ball. Meaning you can shoot other balls just not the frozen ball unless the shoot is greater than 45 degrees to the line from the frozen ball to the pocket.
Can agree with you on everything except marking pockets. I will almost always cut a ball before banking even very thin cuts…my wife will always bank a thin cut …. So what is obvious to one person isn’t obvious to another
I know the cue ball fouls only rule is pretty standard in the absence of a ref but I've seen people take advantage of that to ridiculous levels - especially with their bridge. For example, I've seen some land the cue ball in a crowded area and then touch/move other balls trying to put their fingers on the table - when two or more balls are moved its kinda hard to know where they were. I've even had an instance where someone just bridged with their entire palm sitting on top of a ball and not even consider standing up and saying they touched the ball. I don't like conflict so I never call people on these things but it absolutely frustrates me.
Hi Dr Dave, Question about the last masse example in the middle section of the video. My biggest gripe with these rules is that they bring intent into question. Intent that wasn’t confirmed before hand. Why should it be left up to assumption that you were intending to masse and pocket the ball in the corner. A perfect rule set should remove as many elements of doubt possible. I play English 8 ball. World Rules (two shot fouls) have this as close as possible. The popular international rules, blackball rules or supreme rules enforce a “no deliberate fouls” rule. That is, if I’m snookered, a reasonable attempt must be made to make contact with an object ball of my group. But a refs call on this could be influenced by body language, or being a generally average player. In “attempting” to get out I could play a deliberate foul and make it look like a genuine attempt was made. Ask Dr Tyler for sandbagging tips. Anyway, like my blackball example, does your masse example encourage interpretation of intention? Assuming you intended to masse because of an elevated cue? What if your cuing just sucks? Thanks - appreciate the work you’ve done for the sport.
On a shot like this, one must call the ball and pocket. I did. It didn’t go exactly as planned, but it was a legal shot (under CB fouls only rules) and I did pocket the intended ball in the intended pocket, so it counts.
DD I totally agree with you, I'm on your side, but just to avoid all the hassle, I just go with the house rules, as ridiculous as they are. Some savvy comments on here. Yes you should be an ambassador to the game. Cheers.
One rule I think I don't like (paricularly in APA) is the ball-in-kitchen rule after scratching on the break. The APA tries to streaming their rules to make it faster to fit 5 matches in a target 4 hour period. However if that is true, this rule does not make sense at all. Ideally, it should be ball-in-hand after scratch on break. In games with low skill players, ball-in-kitchen rule extends the game a lot.
"Ball in hand in the kitchen after a scratch on the break" is actually the standard rule. Only CSI/BCAPL/USAPL has ball-in-hand anywhere on the table after a foul on the break.
@@DrDaveBilliards Interesting. I watch mostly the videos of matches of CSI tournaments and I don't remember seeing ball-in-kitchen on the pro-level (like on ESPN or Accu-Stats videos in the 90s). I was unaware that the ball-in-kitchen rule existed outside "bar rules".
Dave please explain to your viewers that professional pool tournaments should have alternating breaks format as well . I want to see both players shoot . I want both players to have an equal chance at the table .especially at the pro level , and if you don't win you know why .thanks
It's a 45° rule because the table stops your cue stick. In the examples you show you stop your cue stick after contact but that's not necessarily the case with every player, a player could push all the way through a shot when the balls are frozen.
I thought everyone in the world championships used WEPF rules. I’m lost to know which rules is used in an international scale. Just for clarity, I’m Australian, but I didn’t think that mattered in “world” rules
What most of the world thinks when you say "world rules" is the WPA "World Standardized Rules" (WSR). For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
APA rules are intentionally designed to boost weaker players and put the brakes on stronger players. So flukes tend to benefit weaker players, while "take what you make" reduces break and runs for higher rated players. I fully agree with the idea of a single standard rule set though. 8 balls been around long enough that we shouldn't have this confusing patchwork of rules that change everywhere you go.
That is an interesting comment about how the APA puts "the breaks on strong players". I am an SL7 in 8-ball and I feel their rules make it easier for me to win. I will freely admit that I am more of a tactical player that a "run out" player. So, I feel that I take advantage of a lot of the nuances of the APA rules, particularly when I have to play a lower skill players where those people would have to win 2+ less racks than I do.
@@coderz4life compared to other leagues and tournament rules, APA def favors lower players. Take what you make favors weaker players because they're not breaking and running anyway, but 6s and 7s will, and not having choice after the break makes a big difference in whether we get out. And slop favors weaker players because slop shots usually only happen when you whack it and miss by a wide margin. In 9 ball, no push and no jump cues tend to slow down the stronger player. If you're comparing APA rules to bar style play (i.e. "all offense no defense/no ball in hand") then I think you're right. But compared to other more formal rule sets found in leagues and tournaments, APA is def geared towards evening the playing field.
Reducing break and runs would be good for high level players. It would require more skill to run out with take what you make, which would be good for elite 8 ball players
i lost twice in different weeks, because i was so focused on running the rack and didnt mark the pocket on 8 ball. i was new. never again . never a 3rd time.
The only benefits of this rule are to prevent severe fights and to encourage team participation by overseeing rookie players. The former might be a liability issue for the league, and the latter, I think, is a roundabout way to teach teammates to closely watch their own players throughout the game. This would help prevent rookies from making mistakes and encourage them to be receptive to coaching.
Let's try to finally get it changed. Please forward the video to your league operator and send a message to the VNEA (at vnea.com) with the video link. If enough people complain, maybe they will listen.
Just to pick a nit on your CB foul only example, contact with the 13 resulted from the double hit. The second hit knocked your cue into the 13. I'm curious that you didn't notice and comment. More to the point, though, I'm not particularly worried about the final outcome when my opponent shoots so sloppily his follow through could knock balls willy nilly on each shot. ;-/ The reality of league play is I would suspect sandbagging and a deliberate nudge to clear a path for his next shot. Or, as in this case, be alerted to the double hit. Thanks for the vids. I learn something from each one.
@@KingNast I guess I should have filmed it again without the double hit to avoid all the confusion, but I decided to leave the shot in because I thought it was interesting (a double hit and "CB Fouls Only" ball bump).
I cannot stand the, no pushout rule in 9 ball in APA. You're punishing a player off the break, which can be very unpredictable, even when you have a ball that you pocket consistently. So dumb.
I've heard that the APA position is that the push out advantages the higher skilled players. Ridiculous. Break. Make a ball. Only option is a two rail kick at the one. No pushout. Which player has a better chance of making a legal hit? Not the lower skilled player.
Yes it's stupid to leave it out. Part of the APA mission statement is to introduce young or old inexperienced players to the game. How can you do that when you leave out some of the rules or add rules.
Hi @Dr. Dave. I would love to see you making a comprehensive video of ALL billiard disciplines that have EVER existed through out the history of the sport (i.e. Russian pyramid and it's variations, Snookered, 8 ball and it's variations, rotation games, etc.). I think that if you were to include the history, rules, and other subjects you could really have enough content for a video series. I would definitely tune in for that content. Who else better equipped than you to take on this task?
At my home bar outside of league, we play call pocket, ball in hand, open on the break. When I go up against someone I don't know, I always ask what rules they are using if I am the incoming player. If they are the incoming player, I will clarify the rules.
I got bars by me where people from equador... Mexico ect come to the table after i win and we play a game of 8 ball and i win and they will literally argue with you saying that i lost because I didn't put the 8 ball in the last pocket without ever agreeing to it before the game...i assume thats what they played in their country...i ask what rules people play at different bars but they don't do it in a different country
I play snooker where the push shot is not allowed. A push shot is defined where the tip of the cue touches the cure ball either in a prolonged manner literally pushing the cue ball as it rolls or where a double hit has occurred. A double hit can be defined as well as a single but prolonged hit. If the balls are touching then technically the balls are already touching the cue strikes the cue ball. If the object ball moves on this shot it is a foul because the logically the cure has struck the cueball which has hit the cobject ball more than once "at the same time". Therefore the correct way to play a touching shot is the play away from the object ball without moving it. Technically then the shot is good because you have hit the cue ball while it is touching the object ball and therefore a hit. If the object ball moves at all, it's a foul as it has been hit twice. The American 45 degrees rule makes no sense but I can imagine that it was created as a bad on not understood version of the snooker rule regarding touching balls and double hits and push shots. In snooker if the is say 1mm i.e. very very close space between the cue ball and the object ball but not touching, then how the shot is taken can be a push shot. Certainly if you strike the cue ball centre with no cu elevation you will make a push shot. To avoid this if you are close enough and tall enough you can elevate the cue to almost 90 degrees, strike the fine edge of the cue ball, causing reverse side and actually not do a push shot. If the cue and object ball were very close but not super close, say a few mm then it is possible with 45 or less degrees to strike the cue low and gentle and as well result in a good hit not cause ing a push or a double hit. I imagine the pool rule of 45 degrees striking has some how evolved due to being written with loss of translation or the understand of the physics of the balls and reasons why.
Under the WPA “official rules of pool,” with how a “push shot” and “double hit” are defined, it is not a foul to hit 8th a frozen CB. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/ and: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/ and: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
As a golfer, and PGA member, the variations I see and come across in pool drive me insane. There should be a single governing body who sets rules for everything.
There is a governing body for international pool rules ... the WPA. See: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/ But the league systems insist in "customizing" the rules: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences
Dr. DAVE! "Impress the ladies" - i laughed at this one. I did not realize the VNEA rules were so different. Thankfully we up North dont play under these. 2 things... The 45 degree rule is very silly especially when you can back it up with slow motion as well as cue ball roll after contact. My biggest issue ( i have many with APA ) is the 8 ball marker as you explained. Why should you mark an obvious shot or lose because A its stupid and B because you forgot. I enjoyed this clip! I have been back at the table a bit and should tackle some BU exams again. Thanks again!
@@DrDaveBilliards "Impressing the ladies" is a bit gender insensitive. Suggestion: Please consider using "Impressing the crowd" or "Impressing the fans". Thank you!
@@mdemarco42 You're point is well taken, but sometimes being a little "gender insensitive" (with good nature, and no bad intent) can be funny. I suspect most viewers of pool videos are straight men, and I suspect most of them found my innocent comment funny. Having said that, I know some people might be offended by my periodic attempts to be funny.
I play in apa what I find annoying is all the double hits that happen.... you might not see it but you can hear the contact. And if I am being completely honest this 45 degree rule doesn't preclude a double hit or object ball fouls but most either don't know or don't care but by gosh we got that 45 degrees nonsense.
When the CB is frozen to the OB, a "push" or "double hit" is impossible with a normal stroke. Only a non-normal pushing stroke can lead to a real foul on a frozen-CB shot (as it could on any other shot).
@@DrDaveBilliards I was agreeing but also including the position where the balls are close and this 45 degree rule doesn't automatically preclude a double hit. Which seems to be the case here that it can't be a double hit because of elevation..... sheer nonsense.
@@GarrethandPipa Agreed. Applying the 45 degree rule to small-gap shots is even more ridiculous. It just gives people a “free pass” to double-hit the ball. :(
I do prefer having a marker to nominate the 8 ball pocket. We do have some jerks in our league and having a marker eliminates any discussion about wether it was obvious or not. Less jerky players will state that they know which pocket you are going for and if agreed no marker is placed.
Hi Dave. Great comment on most of this. Completely agree on the frozen ball rule. VNEA put that rule in to prevent issues between teams when a trained ref is not available. The average player doesn't know enough to understand what a push shot is, never mind judging it. Patching 8 ball.... The 'patched' 8 ball pocket is important because the league is designed for new players. not calling an obvious pocket can become confusing when he missing a corner shot, and instead banks it.... shooter always wins any judgement that is not refed. It was obvious to the shooter he was going for a bank, it was obvious to everyone else that he was shooting the corner... Patch the damn pocket then. problem solved... Forgot to patch.. you've had 16 weeks to get used to patching.... too bad. This is for lower skilled players. If Effren Rayes decided to do a 5 bank side, I'd believe it, and he doesn't need a patch. If joe blow pulls a fluke, I want to know that he meant to do that carom/bank/weird cut. This isn't world class pool we are talking about. Open Table 8 ball usage.... You can end up with a bad table position after the break that does not give you a decent shot without using the 8 ball for combos. Since the table is open, why is the 8 ball any different then the rest. Once a ball is legally pocketed, they can only hit that type of ball. Allowing the 8 ball to be used allows more flexibility for the players of all skill levels. Do remember that the point of VNEA is to bring more people to the game. We need to have rules that allow long skill players to be able to have some leeway against the 'pros'. Keep up the great work, and please give some thought to the new players getting into the game. That's what VNEA/CCS leagues are for. Thanks!
@@DrDaveBilliards The problem is that official set may included rules that are hard to judge for low skilled levels, or that is so frequently broken that you won't be able to play if you call them all the time. Simply, for players who miss straight shots in open pockets, if you require to call every touch during the pot, there will be no legal pots. It is like kids playing soccer/football - you do not call off-sides, or surely do not measure them to video repeat accuracy. If you do that, kids will switch to other sports :)
@@dmitripogosian5084 Concerning the 45 degree rule, I was able to convince VNEA to change the rule (for all the reasons mentioned in the video). It was removed in August of 2023.
I have been away from the game forty years and now that I am playing again I am constantly bombarded with another rule that counters the rules I just played another person under. WTF People? Our desire to not be compliant here in the USA makes us look like toddlers to the rest of the world. Thanks for the videos.
in australia, we have a foul snooker rule in world 8 ball rules, (wont go into it), however, it works really well, and I think US pool should have it.... It's not in international or blackball rules which is taking over...
The reason why it isn’t in the WPA’s World Standardised Rules for Eight Ball is because the penalty for all fouls is the same, regardless of whether the cue ball is left in a snookered position or not; the incoming player has cue ball in hand to begin their inning, and they can place it anywhere on the playing surface. That penalty is much more severe, and I think it’s better suited to pool. More defensive rulesets, like the WEPF ‘world’ rules, which, to my knowledge as a New Zealander, are largely unknown outside of the United Kingdom and Australia (other users feel free to correct/inform me), give more of an advantage to the player sitting in the chair, which should not be possible, given that they aren’t at the table. The foul snooker rule just offers an easy way out of a really difficult shot, and, as a player of WPA rules for every discipline, it’s something that I can’t really see the appeal for. For English-style pool (the game on the 7’x3’6”, rather than the standard 9’x4’6”) the WPA’s Blackball rules seem to be much better than the WEPF rules. If you’re referring to the rules used by the Ultimate Pool Group (UPG) as ‘international rules’, from what I’ve read, they appear to be the intermediate/compromise between Blackball and Eight Ball (using WPA names). I think the UPG are doing quite a good job at making pool more popular in the U.K. and their ruleset’s similarities to WPA Eight Ball allows for viewers outside of the U.K. to follow along. Apologies for the length, hope this doesn’t get taken the wrong way.
I'm guessing the reason they have the 45 degree rule, is because there might not be a ref to call whether the balls are frozen or not. So they are basically treating frozen balls as if they are slightly apart.
It is important for the opponent to check if the balls are frozen or not. 45 degrees is not guarantee against a double hit. See examples here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/ If the 45 degree rules applies to small gap shots (which is not the case in VNEA or any other league I know of), then it would be a "free pass" to double-hit the ball.
@@Dhirallin With a very small gap, a double hit is possible at any angle. But a double hit is very easy to detect. For more info and examples of both, see the videos and info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
@@DrDaveBilliards One scenario that comes up in my games is where the balls are almost touching and you need to throw the object ball towards the pocket. I may have definitely been guilty of a double hit on this shot. Do you have any guidelines on what kind of angle and stroke I would need to avoid this and still throw the ball? That is, how can I legally maximise throw on these shots?
@@Dhirallin If the gap is small, it can be nearly impossible to avoid a double hit without a very large cut angle. To learn how to both avoid and detect double hits under all situations, see the videos here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/ For info on how to get maximum throw, see: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/maximum/ Enjoy!
I don't think there are problems with modifying rules as long as they aren't stupid. Like say the APA (any pocket asshole) rules. Yeah the 45 frozen ball hit is stupid, and useless, but no worse than that dumb ass 'three balls minimum, kitchen plus pocketed' rule for negating slow breaks. You know, the one where you can smash the pack and have that happen at times. And not slow break and have it happen A LOT. I've seen many times TWO balls go in on a nine ball break, and a ball lies within inches, to even requiring careful viewing for the in/out of the kitchen call. I think if they want to negate slow breaking they should just measure the break speed. I would guess that there is a FREE app out there that does that. i had the couple of dollar Predator app, and it seemed to work well. All you need is a mic, and someone to quickly place the cue ball reasonably accurately starting position in the app before the break, easy peasy. In some pro tourneys I've seen them go to the ref determining the slow break call, and they pretty much always give a warning before calling it, unless the ball just trickles up to the rack in an obvious slow break. Nice speed on that 9-11-13 combo, BTW. Honestly I don't see a problem with allowing an eight ball first strike on an open table. It seems kind of similar to the push in nine, just giving an option for the incoming player, who has no control over the table setup since his opponent broke. But for consistency I wouldn't care either way. Our little local league allows it, right now. Here's my pet peeve. CALLING not obvious BALLS IN EIGHT BALL should be a requirement of every league. Playing with somebody who thinks every shot should be hit at maximum break speed in the hope that some random ball will drop in some random pocket would just make me break down my cue and leave, permanently. It makes playing pool, for me, drop right down from the fun category into the 'please, just stick a pencil in my eye' so I'm having more fun category. Requiring a marker is inane, and if I lost for not moving a marker the entire match would be theirs, because I would walk away. I don't have to worry about that, though, because I wouldn't play in that league. Now forgetting to call the pocket, that is fine, a standard rule. But yeah, I think the rules should prob`ably be standardized, except maybe for obvious differentiators like all ball fouls, calling that is definitely a job for a ref, not your opponent or even a third party, since only a micro touch of a shirt or whatever is a foul. No ball movement is necessary for the foul call. And if they chose to make jumping allowable for PROS ONLY using their player's cue, that would probably not be a good rule to drag down to Wednesday night pool, as you might as well just outlaw jumping all together for the percentages on a typical amateur succeeding with that handicap. And I KNOW how much you like jumping, because you told me, and how little you would like to see that rule in amateur league, and I agree. Bottom line, you are NEVER going to get pool rules standardized. That would be like standardizing smart phone plugs. Good luck with that. CDs and a few others, were kind of the exceptions in the consumer arena. Computer manufacturers, at least PC manufacturers have done a MUCH better job with standardizing interfaces and specs.
APA has the "make it, take it" rule in 8-ball. Also, what's your thought on ball-in-hand behind the head string, shooting out of the kitchen rule for fouls on the break in APA 8-ball?
That is a pace of play rule in APA. Having it open table for lower skill levels can add minutes to every rack ending in an additional 30+ mins each league night.
@@redhare976 Pace of play as a reason makes no sense. Not having an open table can only make the game longer. Knowing how to choose a better side is a skill so I’m pretty sure it’s there to take the advantage away from higher-skilled players.
Most leagues make all their rules biased towards lower skill levels. Leagues grow based on adding new players which usually are lowered skilled. Lower skill level players will spend more time considering both solids and stripes vs only considering what the a required to shoot.
@@redhare976 Yes, That’s why I said that it’s there to take the advantage AWAY from higher-skilled players. There’s a shot clock in APA. Adding “minutes” to every rack because of one shot is impossible.
speaking on arbitrary rules: is it too difficult to explain a push out rule in 9 ball to a low skill level player in apa. the "No pushout" rule only perpetuates low level play, especially in a league where slop counts. ???
I agree with everything you said. Especially the 8 ball marking rule. I have seen it happen and also seen people call a foul because the marker was slightly over the diamond by the called pocket. Marker has to be completely inside the diamonds at each pocket and matches have been lost because it was not. Even thought the person shooting placed the marker there just before the shot. Takes a real ass to call this foul but it happens.
I understand a lot of the complaints mentioned by Dr. Dave here. But for some leagues, like the APA, the matches are handicapped. And the play is intended to make it easier for lower level players to have a chance to win against better players. So there are definite reasons for some of the exceptions to the WPA rules within the APA league. For example, slop counts will generally benefit the lower level players more often than the higher level players. Marking the pocket is intended to ensure there is no confusion about which pocket was intended. However, I have seen people lose, because they shot an 8-ball that was hanging in the corner pocket because they didn't mark the pocket. Most of the time your opponent is going to be cordial and not be a "jerk" and declare a win because of this. But sometimes, people do. Why? Because they are trying to take their team to Vegas to win the pot. The best thing to do, no matter what league you play in, is to follow the rules of the league. I agree that some rules are silly, like the 45 degree rule. And I agree that fouls should be the same across all the leagues. I personally don't like the APA rule that you have to take what you make on the break. But I can see the argument for making it more difficult for running the table and give a lower level player who lost the lag, a chance to shoot. But you should not be penalized for making a ball on the break. I haven't played in any other leagues other than the APA as of yet; but, the biggest problem I see in the league is too many players don't know how to spot a defensive shot, and people are often lazy and don't announce they are playing safe. And it seems to me that a lot of players who are Skill Level 5's should be skill level 6's. And the players who actually call out their defensive shots, end up with a valid Skill Level based on their algorithms, but often have to give handicaps to players who are just as skilled as they are or even better simply because so many defensive shots are not counted during matches... And we either have to be vigilant at pointing out our opponents defensive shots when they occur, which can make us look like jerks, or we simply have to accept the fact that we are often going to be handicapping more than is intended. Of course there are some players who intentionally sandbag, but I think the majority is simply score keepers not paying attention, or even caring enough, to keep accurate track of defensive shots, or simply not knowledgeable enough to recognize a defensive shot. But there is also the 23 cap on the total skill level points allowed to play for the team during the match... if you get too many 5's on your team or even a couple 6's or 7's, it's difficult to balance that with a 3 or a 2 since new players generally improve quickly. And I think I could teach almost anyone to be playing at skill level 5 in a short amount of time if they put in the practice.
This is why I hate APA. Such a drag. Don't know why any decent player would put themselves through it. "Calling" safeties? No thanks. Sitting around all night with a room full of 2's and 3's who can't manage a two ball run with their Meucci's whining about handicaps? I'd rather shave my head with a cheese grater.
@@davereloader8837 Haha, I love Meucci cues! I play with a Meucci Carbon Pro and I love it. (Though I replaced the Ultra Skin tip with a Water Buffalo tip.) I find I get less hop when shooting a draw shot with speed with a harder tip, compared to a medium tip that stays in contact with the cue ball longer.
I have a question. If only a blackball/8ball is the only object ball and it's touching cue ball, will it be foul to push the blackball or it has to be treated like others and one should play towards cushion?
Agreed, having played in VNEA, its rules about marking the 8 are ridiculous and childish. And the rule regarding the 8 can be struck first after the break on an open table is ultimately more confusing. Just prohibit the 8 from being struck first when not the object ball at ALL times. Keep it simple…
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm short myself. I guess if Earl Strickland can tape on finger extensions I should be allowed to wear platform shoes? Or what about a 45° angle bent cue stick?🎱😊
What if the player shoots his object ball and knocks the 8 ball in the pocket with his stick? Is it spotted or put back where the opponent thinks it was?
I was captain for over 10 years and have seen thousands of matches . The push rule has helped and hurt me many times . The only way I could think of remedy's is to go old school , I mean literally back in the 70s when you were too close to a rail cuz we were so little , ya put the butt of the stick to space it from being illegal . Perhaps make a spacer legitimate with league rules . But then an issue of making the balls lock to get a space would be a problem . Seems no matter how well you shape it , it still so hard to master your leave . The joys of pool haha
@@DrDaveBilliards I've been in apa since 2009 , almost 1000 matches combined 8&9 ball ,ten times that coaching , making sure to keep all team members involved . Take the opponent give him.or her the option of spacing the cue from the push OR , STALEMATE and re rack . The push rule has brought more headaches than hearing the word sandbagger . I've brought literally hundreds of new pool players into through the APA as captain, many who are now in tapp , Bca , upa etcetera and Captain's themselves . Most ALL my warriors ( my team name since 2010) started by saying " I'm not good enough to play in league or on a team " . If I had a nickel haha, . I'm a very strong empath , clairvoyant , alll that said you can take shots at APA but if not for them , none of them players take ease on their brutal workweeks at pool league . Lives changed in many ways , heck I might've not been interested either . If you're ever in Tacoma maybe we could shoot some games see how good a seasoned apa captain might be haha , happy billiards my friend 🎱
@@christopherframke3374 I've met and played many great pool players from APA leagues. I respect the playing ability of many APA players ... I just don't have respect for the APA "rules."
@@DrDaveBilliards you're funny , no you let the opponent not shooting have the option of allowing it , or a re-rack ,.But you already know it don't matter with any League , they won't change it . I don't care , I hardly ever come to that kinda shot cuz number 1 rule Know where your cue ball is going , number 2 you don't have to make every shot . That's only rules in my mind
Nice video, Dr Dave, as usual. I have a question for you. Do you play snooker apart from pool? If so, do you consider making a video about the differences between pool and snooker? I would like to see your take on that topic.
@@DrDaveBilliards I think you playing snooker for the first time would make for a great video. It would be interesting to see how much more difficult it is for a skilled pool player.
@@KingNast I have played before, and it was quite humbling. There is much less fear and more creativity in pool. That's why I like it better; although, as I mentioned, I do love watching world-class snooker.
in germanys leagues we play wpa rules with all ball fouls even without referee. i think it is the way how pool should be played. i never understood why american leagues even pro tournaments (accidental 10 ball for the win?! come on...the game was invented as a harder 9 ball) set their own rules. the only thing that makes somewhat sense to me is call shot/call safety wich i find interesting as an european. don't know if i would enjoy playing it though, because it takes away clever two way shots. what is your opinion on call shot/safety dave?
This was a great demo, but this rule is still the rule. Your demo should be taken to the appropriate leadership of each organization and given to them. Even if your right, this causes discussion at a level we can’t fix!
I don't understand why you say WPA doesn't consider as a foul the cue moving an object ball during a massé or jump shot. For me and anyone in my club, there is fault because nothing can interfere with the object ball except another ball : 6.6 Touched Ball It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-toball Jump or not, massé or not, if you touch any object ball with something else than a ball, there is fault.
Thank you for your answer. TBH, in 25 years of play, I’ve never use the regulation rule : I always played as if a ref was present, with sportmanship and gentlemen behavior, and naively, I thought every seasonned players played the same. But it seems US players plays pool quite differently than Europe. Of course, in France too, new or occasionnal players don’t know the correct rules and play some « bar rules », a mix of UK pool rules (ie 2 shots with ball in hand behind the kitchen line) and wierd things (ie if a ball is railfrozen, you can unfroze it with the butt of your cue 😂😂😂). But in tournament, WPA rules are mandatory and even if it’s very rare to have a referee (except for official tournaments), we never use the regulation case.
100% agreed to all points made in the video. But why not go one step further and get rid of "cue ball fouls only" altogether and play all-ball fouls all the time? It's frankly IDIOTIC to allow touching or moving *any* ball with the cue or clothing except the cue ball in any shot. Not using all-ball fouls make certain safeties (such as "Chinese" snookers) pointless and alters the game considerably.
Unfortunately, most Americans think "All Ball Fouls" is too severe or nit-picky, especially if there is no referee available. It is too easy for disagreements and arguments to occur. For example: "Your shirt touch that ball" ... "No it didn't!" etc.
@@DrDaveBilliards I can see that being a problem (though it should be clear to everyone that Pool is a game of skill), however over here in Germany we‘re playing all-ball-fouls in all leagues, some with no referee, and we hardly ever see discussions like that.
@@t_corte I wish all American pool players were as knowledgeable of and respectful to the rules as it sounds like German pool players are, but that is certainly not the case.
i agree with everything ,except"marking " pocket for8 ball,its so simple to just mark it,and the reason for it is that it stops arguments ,tooo many times people say they called a pocket the were not shooting at.ethics doesnt come in to play when "money"of trips to vegas come into play.and to be honest if you lose because you didnt mark your pocket thats just being stupid,on my team we always mark and remind each other in every match due to issues with it in the past
Great stuff again Dr. Dave, thanks for the well thought out suggestions here. My APA teams where I am Captain, we have an unwritten rule; we ALWAYS notify opponents if they have not marked the pocket, and they get a free pass the first time if they quickly shoot on an obvious 8-ball out and did not mark. It's good sportsmanship, and does the right thing, which is educate and start a discussion about the rulebook. About the table being committed after sinking after break, I agree, this is one I would hope the APA reconsiders. One other not covered here, is WAY too many double hits go uncallable in APA due to the requirement to "educate" the shooter prior to the shot. I disagree with this, but understand their need to accommodate low skill level players. IMO, this needs to be shifted to the responsibility of the shooting team, and allow them to explain prior to the shot.
I think it is great your team has “good sportsmanship,” but it would be better if marking were just not required. Again, if the shot is not obvious, it should be called, but that’s it.
Our APA division has the unwritten rule that if both players agree to no markers (call shots only) on the 8, then no marker is necessary for that match. But this is a smallish Southern town division and most of the players know each other quite well.
I had my own captain call me on it. I marked the pocket with the chalk, then picked up the chalk while re-examining the shot, and forgot to replace it. It was double-hill too!
Hi Dr Dave. What do you think about the 23 handicap rule in APA for 8 ball and especially in 9 ball. i was ranked as 9 in APA 9 ball league i know it was quite difficult for me to play unless i had a rank of 1 on the team which is hard to find.
Hi Dr. Dave from a big fan. I play in a league where they insist 9 ball is always a call shot game according to BCA and APA rules yet I cannot find such a rule. Please advise.
I am with him on all but the 45 degree rule. That should stay in place because not all can shoot frozen ball shots, and it is to hard to determine fouls.
I disagree. It is not difficult at all to detect a foul because there is never a double hit or push with a normal stroke into a frozen-CB shot. Now, when there is a small gap between the CB and OB, the shot is totally different because a double hit is a real concern, even at 45 degrees or more. Some people apply the "45 degree rule" to this case also, but that is not in the VNEA rules (or any rules I am aware of). The current VNEA "45 degree rule" applies only to the case where the CB is frozen to the OB, where a double hit or push shot is not a concern with a normal stroke.
@@DrDaveBilliards I agree for semi pro to professional players it not hard to determine if the shot is a foul, but from beginner to advanced shooters this is an argument waiting to happen because you would have to use a slo mo cam (as you displayed in the video) to determine the call. If the 45 degree rule is in place, you negate this argument, and the game continues.
Love this discussion! I am a fan of cue ball fouls only and see no real benefit to foul on all balls. And the stupid pocket marking cost me a clean sweep in an APA match once. I was left safe and went for an offensive kick on the 8 which was hanging in the pocket. The millisecond after the cue ball left the tip I realized I hadn't placed the marker. I immediately called the pocket before the cue ball was anywhere near the 8 sort of in panic mode, hoping that the other player would be a good sport about the shot if it went in, since it was literally impossible to make the 8 in any other pocket because it was so deep. Unfortunately I made the shot, and lost the game. I still won the match, but it violated the spirit of the game and I saw no real benefit to the rule in that instance. I realize that this may have also been a loss in other forms of 8ball since I didn't call the shot before hitting the cue ball, but there should be some common sense rule where if the object ball is on the shelf that the shooter doesn't have to call the shot--just for those players which will take any advantage possible and call a foul or loss for a shot even if it's literally the only shot possible. (I see that Toam chalk making an appearance! I'm a big fan of Toam chalk!)
He made you a pretty convincing case on why the all ball foul rule is better. I have lost matches because my apponnent was carelessly knocking balls with their cue freeing them up. Being able to just return balls where you think they were is wrong. They never return excatmctly where they were.
@@KarlsCracklingCottonMouth but the non shooting opponent has the option of placing the balls back to where they “think” they were originally, so you had the option to place the balls that your opponent was knocking around. It wasn’t up to him to place them as the shooter.
@@KarlsCracklingCottonMouth I agree that allowing fouls to turn into a strategic play by your opponent is less than ideal. The biggest thing that I leverage is the option to “not move the ball back” especially when the opponents fixes a problem for me. I rationalize it in my head as *punishment* for being careless, or sometimes I really wasn’t paying enough attention to know where it was-especially if I’m giving the shooting player their space. In the Philippines they just mark the balls when it’s likely to be hit inadvertently. The table gets covered with talc that way, but it’s definitely fair for both players. Idk if all pool halls would be cool with this in the US, but it’s definitely a fair system.
Another thing I want to add is that where I live no matter who has the right to replace the balls teams will fight it out and throw fits if it's not exactly where they think they go. So like dr. Dave says it just affects the spirit/ Integrity of the game.
Dr. Dave: What about rules right before a break. I cant get a clear answer. Can you put the cue ball directly on the head spot? I’ve heard you can, as long as more than 1/2 is behind head-string or it has to be completely behind the head-string. Which is it? Also, in 8ball lots of confusion on how to rack the balls in the triangle. Some say each end has to be alternate ball, alternate ball on ends and 3rd row, and cant have 3 in a row of same stripe/solid. Can you clear this up for me/us.
The resting point of the CB needs to be on or behind the head string. The only requirements for the 8-ball rack are: 8 in the middle, a stripe and solid on the corners. For more info, see: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
Tap league I went to nationals and called someone to watch a hit back in like 2012. And I didnt know the rule but the rule in tap is as long as you make an attempt not to foul you cant foul. Lol
That's a great rule. There are several shots that are impossible, until you have a no foul rule, and then they are infinitely easy. Hustlers used to use them on unsuspecting marks.
Some of these are plain ridiculous lmao. Played against my brother and he insisted that moving a ball with the shaft wasn't a foul, so whenever he did it, I placed the ball where I remembered it to be (troll face). Needless to say, we played WPA rules afterwards. Edit: But the worst of the worst is when people start using bar rules (8 in the last pocket, no foul when hitting the opponents ball first indirectly etc. it makes my skin crawl lol
@@DrDaveBilliards so, the ones I heard include: if you touch directly your opponent's ball first, it goes in the pocket and he gets his turn. From the kitchen shots must go over the half of the table (somewhere between the middle pockets). If you don't make a contact with anything, it isn't a foul. The first ball that goes in determines your balls, if 2 different balls go at the same time, you get to choose. Last pocket you potted your last ball is the one you must pocket the 8ball into, unless your opponent already has that pocket as his own for the 8, in that case, your pocket is the one opposite of that.
*UPDATE: In August, 2023, the VNEA eliminated the 45˚ Rule.*
*Content:*
0:00 - Intro
0:37 - 45˚ Rule
4:18 - CB Fouls Only
8:11 - Open Table
9:32 - Marking the 8
10:51 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- pool rules resources: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
- pool league rule differences: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences
- bar rules: billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/bar-rules/
- fouls resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/
- frozen CB resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/frozen/
- contact-point mirror kicking system: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/contact-point-mirror/
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's UA-cam Channel:*
ua-cam.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
So with the 45 removed, what is the rule? You can now do a throw shot and be legal?
Please dumb it down. Lol.
Here in Germany we are playing all to the WPA rules, no matter what league or tournament you play. It really confused me, when I found out about all the different rules you are using in the US. Some even make the game more difficult for amateurs.
Most of Europe follows the WPA rules. I wish this were the case in America also.
As a very amateur but competitive pool player, it's the most annoying thing ever to go to a bar and have to go over every rule before you play someone you just meet.
I have literally never been to a pool hall where they play the rules as they should be.
Ridiculous.
@@mapes0576 "Bar Rules" are even worse than "League Rules" per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/bar-rules
I tried a discussion about it there:
ua-cam.com/video/q-nJw44J7CQ/v-deo.html
However, not very successfull. ;-)
The uk also has weird regional rules... some don't even allow masse or jump shots
Hi @Dr. Dave. Here is a suggestion. As pool is getting more and more traction on social media, I think it would be beneficial to all of us to have designated ambassadors of pool (such as yourself), in order to organize public opinion, drive much needed change, carry weight (based on your recognition/reputation), and put pressure on leagues. I'm sure other social media folks would be delighted to help you and all of us grow the sport and make it a more knowledgeable and enjoyable game for everyone. Thoughts?
I try to do these things already, partly through my involvement with the BCA and PBIA and through my posting of videos like this.
FYI, I forwarded my video to the VNEA President and Rules Committee. Hopefully, it will help encourage them to make the recommended changes.
@@timanderson3136 That a good example where if you don’t use official rules, people can make up whatever they want to.
@@timanderson3136 he probably didn’t make it up, since I have also seen some people say the same to me about the “rules from where they’ve always played”, but nevertheless, no point in agreeing to a rule that make absolutely no sense (not only to you but to all well recognized official rules)
“Leagues should be fun, not demoralizing.” Well said, Dr. Dave! My local league is challenging, but everyone has fun. Our league director also does a fantastic job setting up different leagues for different nights, whether it’s 8 or 9 ball, singles, doubles, or scotch doubles, and hosts many local tournaments throughout the year. I may not always win, but I’m always learning, and having a good time doing so!
It sounds like you have a good thing going on.
Agree 100%. Another thing that I hate on leagues is the handicap system. In APA, once you level up in 9 ball, it's extremely difficult to win. Play a SL9 against a SL1 (75 balls vs 14 balls)... it's ugly. Takes all the fun out of the game for the SL9 player.
APA is definitely geared more toward unambitious and social players.
Dave, as a head ref with ACS, I cannot agree more with this. Excellent video as always. I wish the leagues would follow the WPA rules. I feel so bad for players when they commit a foul because of a league rule difference. As I ref ACS only, I see lots of players taking ball in hand anywhere on the table after the break, not knowing that applies to BCAPL only. FYI, I do not agree with this rule, it's only benefit is to high level players who will most certainly run out.
i thought APA was the only one who had that weird "in the kitchen ball in hand after the break" rule.. turns out it's the norm and only applies to BCAPL? i never noticed before. i dont agree with that rule either.
When I play at the bar we have a no ball in hand rule unless you somehow touch the cue ball with your hand. Otherwise its way too easy to run a board.
@@breakthecode4047 bars hardly ever have ball in hand. But ball in hand is crucial. Its a penalty for nonsense in the game. Imagine no penalty for walking around with the ball in basketball? Playing pool without ball in hand is like playing basketball without calling travel. What happens in a bar if it's my turn, I have no shot so I just push the ball and lock it up with another ball? Nothing. That's a defensive play. But in any standard ruleset you have to work for that defensive play, otherwise you get a penalty - ball in hand. Which you do not want to do. It's part of a structured ruleset.
@@lugoheriberto that analogy does not line up at all though. Theres a huge difference in what allows ball in hand and just walking around with a basketball. Point is from my end. Playing kitchen in fact makes the game more skillful. And ball in hand does not.
@@breakthecode4047 it does line up. Bar pool has no penalties for anything. What if I hit your ball onto the rail? Does that sound like it makes sense? There's no structure at all in bar rules. Just a bunch of "you can't do that".. but no penalty for the things said you can't do. You know you have to hit your ball first. But what happens if you don't? Nothing. Nothing at all. Games all have penalties when you do something you aren't allowed to do. Any game, any sport. Except for bar pool. Ball in hand is intentionally lethal. But I've given ball in hand on purpose many times, as part of strategy. I'll accept the penalty. If you renig in spades and get caught you auto lose 3 books. That's a lethal penalty also. Imagine paying spades or any game with no penalty. Makes no sense in even playing.
Hey saw you out there at the VNEA--pretty cool... a rule I'd like to see changed is allowing for pattern racking. We had an opponent soft break a patterned rack leaving all the solids in a small cluster and all stripes out for an easy, unskilled run giving his team a 10-0 victory. Pattern racking should be prohibited.
It is !
@@leonardhpls6 - I asked a ref. He said pattern racking was allowed. I went and spoke to the head ref table and they affirmed it being permissible as well.
@@mike2687 it is prohibited, check out Dave's video about it, it talks about it in depth with Corey's pattern rack.
ua-cam.com/video/kkAlntQrFo8/v-deo.html
@@ryanmoon05 - that’s surprising and disappointing to hear because I left mid match during the team event for those questions (just over 2 weeks ago) because we were going to call a ref to look at the racks if we noticed another one racked the same.
@@ryanmoon05 - also, there was no hesitation in the ref’s answer to me…. They seemed very aware of this.
The "take what you make" break rule for APA 8-ball is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever encountered in literally decades of shooting pool. All that rule does is make 8-ball more frustrating, no matter if you're a 2 or a 7 in the APA. Let's say I make three stripes on the break, but then I get snookered behind a solid and have no shot on a stripe afterwards. Why should I be punished and have to kick at a stripe instead of being rewarded with choice after a nice break where I potted three balls? The other APA rule that I don't like is the point system for 9-ball. Why not play races for 9-ball like you do for 8-ball? There's been plenty of matches where I narrowly lost the point race, even though I made WAY more 9-balls than my opponent because they either couldn't get proper shape on it or missed the shot under pressure. League nights would finish faster too if 9-ball was done using a standard race instead of the point system.
I agree with you the take what you get rule in APA needing a change. I personally like the 9ball points over race. Mostly because if an accidental or early pocket of the 9 it's only 2 points instead of a won game. I've personally avoided pocketing the 9 early because it's more points to run out. Granted I'm only an APA 4.
Tap league uses a race rather than the point system but you can't fluke the 9 in and win. You have to call the 9 ball. If you don't call it then it's spotted and you continue with the rack.
"c140075" mentions a TAP League variant. How many variants are there? Without discussing any certain rule, and as a former TAP league operator, I assumed early-on that these leagues have to insert quirks in their rules as a way to avoid copyright/patent infringement. This might be regardless of if a given league thinks its quirk is more profitable or sportsmanlike. Several APA rules are designed to entice new membership, split teams, and tamp the best shooters.
I also do not like the "take what you make" rule because it goes against the "official rules of pool" and because it potentially puts a successful breaker at a huge disadvantage.
@@RichardBrainPoi Don't get me wrong. I understand why the APA uses the point system, as it discourages novice level players from simply smashing the balls around in hopes of potting an early 9-ball to win the rack. It helps to reduce sloppy play in a game that requires careful patterns to run out. However, I still wish the APA would adopt TAP's method of 9-ball, where you play races of racks instead of points, but you have to call the 9-ball with no slop allowed. That method minimizes the shenanigans from novices. I'm an APA 6/6 by the way. Not too bad, but not great either, LOL.
9 ball rules in APA, points based, no push out allowed, early 9 ball ends the rack, even though it's only worth 2 points.
Hey Dr. Dave, you're absolutely right about trying to standardize rule sets. It can be complicated to keep the rules straight if you play one or more different leagues in a week. APA's rule set where if you unintentionally hit another ball on the table with your equipment requires that you move the ball back to the spot. This one seems to defeat the purpose of preventing the ball in hand foul, by allowing the opponent the chance to replace the ball at the previous spot.
To the best of my knowledge, the whole of South East Asia plays according to the WPA rule set. the only difference you MAY encounter between different open/official tournaments is whether the 9 is on the spot or not, but that's extremely rare. 8/10ball is exactly the same as the WPA rule set. And unlike the US, we only have 9foot pool tables or 12foot snooker tables in all the pool halls. 7foot tables are for kids birthday parties..
In Jakarta (Indonesia) we've used to have a lot of 7ft coin operated tables scattered around busy marketplace. Now, they were all gone except for pub decorations.
Dr. Dave doing a pool league video??? I smell a collaboration.
I'm happy to collaborate to help them fix their rules, but that's about it.
Actually, I'm in a pool league (VNEA), and I just wish they use the "official rules of pool." That's it.
@@DrDaveBilliards @DrDaveBilliards I feel the same with my pool league! The options in my area are so limited! its so frustrating.
Dr Dave deserves so much more recognition and views for his content but ppl.instead prefers to watch rubbish on yt.....
I cater my stuff to people who really want to learn and master the game. It doesn't bother me if I don't get many "banger" views. :)
The marking the pocket makes a little sense to me. APA is mostly a bar league. There’s a lot of drinking going on. Marking the pocket leaves no interpretation where the ball was called and can possible help avoid drunken confrontations. My take at least. It is dumb though.
Dr. Dave, I see your point about the pocket marker on the 8 ball, and for league in APA we don't have to mark the pocket. They do however have the rule to where we do have to mark the pocket for "playoff" type scenarios (that being playoffs and high level tournaments). There is one more rule that you didn't cover in this video and that is lagging for the break. In Vegas for the APA National Team Championships, they make players lag for the break. In league, we just flip a quarter for the break. This is a really good video discussing rules and which ones should be used because like you said, a lot of pool sanctioning bodies are making up a lot of these rules.
Did you league codify that alternative patch rule in their local by-laws? League operators can make adjustments to the national rules, but it does have to be formalized.
@@coderz4life I'm not sure. I think they did, but I really can't say if they did.
Thank you for another great video and for providing outstanding resources!
I'm glad you pointed out how large 45° actually is (you could probably infer that from something...haha).
One interesting thing to me is the Open Table rule. Usually when I just shoot around (often I'll play games against myself for practice), aside from forcing myself to call all shots (including other affected balls), I also force myself to call which category of ball during an open table (and thus contacting a stripe first but pocketing/potting a solid and vice versa I would not allow). I should be using the official rules myself (and once again thank you for providing those great resources such as the rule booklet - yes I know I could just use a search engine, but you make it much easier (similar to the standing on the shoulders of giants idea). Similarly I could also just read your and Coriolis' books instead of watching your great videos, but again it's the idea of getting the information you want quicker, of course).
I'm assuming the reason the different leagues having different rules is mostly politics and driven by desire for power, unfortunately. I've been in various sports leagues (including e-sports) and a lot of them have different rules and often you can tell (at least it seems) that it's a "power trip" to have differing rules. I've even seen leagues (usually the e-sports ones as they are easier to organize and get existing players to join as it doesnt' require the same level of commitment as a physical/irl sport league) created because of disagreement of rules and the league creator's desire to have their own set of rules.
Anyway, again, thanks for the great video, as usual!
You're welcome. I'm glad you liked it.
In my opinion touching any object ball with a shaft during a shot should be considered as a faul, the only exception if touching the ball doesn't cause it to move (the same might be related if you touch a ball with the piece of your clothes). Considering official rules (and official games), this is how we usually play for money, if such a thing happens on a friendly match well then player can pay no attention to this.
I agree. But if it ain't in writing, it ain't an "official rule."
I agree with this segment. I recently came in second in a tournament because of a change of rules on the final game... At any rate thank you for all the hard work you do. I'm transferring to CSU after my sophomore year and look forward to learning from you.
You're welcome. I hope you enjoy your CSU experience. FYI, I retired from CSU a few years ago, but I still teach pool lessons and pool courses in Fort Collins.
Curious to what rule changed during the final game.
Here's a copy and paste from the TAP pool league rule pdf. "Push Shot - If the cue ball is frozen to the object ball, pushing through the cue ball is a legal hit." It's worded in a way that would seem to indicate that push shots are actually legal. I would think pushing through is the one thing you shouldn't do with frozen balls. Hit through or stroke through, but not push through.
Agreed. That wording is less than ideal. You are allowed to hit into a frozen CB, but you are not allowed to push the CB (as with any other shot). Examples of "push" shots can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/
I've played in a VNEA league for the past 4 years and only recently heard of the marking the pocket for the 8 rule. I guess we don't bother with it where I play. And I also only found out we were a VNEA league recently as well. I just show up and play.
I wish "don't bother with it" could be made official in the rules, but it is not. See the last paragraph under "D" here:
www.vnea.com/8-ball-rules.aspx
The VNEA push shot foul is probably created with the snooker rules in mind. In snooker if the target ball touching the cue ball moves in the direction that the cue ball is hit, it is considered a push shot. And in practice the cue ball must be hit in a very thin angle in terms of the touching ball, and effectively it’s smaller than 45 degrees. But in this context they should probably modify it towards the WPA rule
Everywhere should just play World Rules, in the push shot situation, what are you going to do if someone disputes whether or not you double hit it, play with a high-speed camera so you can watch every shot back?
My league has the 45 degree rule if distance is less than the width of a cue tip. This does include frozen. It is there during league matches so we don't need refs for league. It makes it simple to avoid double hits and less arguing between teams. During a tournament we have refs and that rule is not there.
I see that just as a "free pass" to double hit the CB.
Good points. I wonder if some of the dumb rules were written by people who don't really know much about pool? Another rule that's due for elimination is the APA prohibition of push out shots after the break, in 9 Ball. APA also requires you to be stuck with whatever group of balls you made on the break, in 8 Ball, unless you made both. Both rules potentially penalize a breaker needlessly, or (in 9 Ball) unjustly reward a breaker for not making a ball but burying the cue ball. Theoretically a skilled player could use that rule to his/her advantage, to get an early ball in hand.
Agree with the APA 9-ball take, push out should be allowed. The take what you make in 8-ball doesn’t bother me as much as there usually isn’t a situation where you’re stuck giving up ball in hand on the next shot.
@@mikekowalski3128 In the 8 Ball scenario, you could also be penalized by making a stripe and realizing the stripes layout is terrible, but solids are wide open. There's just no good reason for that rule.
eh, take what you make what make high level 8 ball more interesting. like 10 ball, it would force you to make more difficult shots early in the rack rather than the super boring usual scenario of trading breaks and runouts
Forgive me if you covered the following.
What do you think the rule should be when a person verbally declares a numbered ball while obviously shooting at a different ball?
Ala Earl Strickland accidentally calling the 2 when he meant the 10
If the shot is obvious, the mistaken call should be overlooked.
Thank u dr dave for another great video!
U and tor lowry have really helped to elevate my game and have given me the inspiration to create my own youtube channel .
I ordered and have reallly learned from your book and wiil definitly utililize it in future videos i do
Thanks again
You're welcome. I'm glad to hear it. Good luck with your Channel!
I've played in leagues for more than 40 years now, and I am convinced some league organizers have their own unique rules simply because they are on some kind of power trip. Remember in elementary school when a classmate was designated The Crossing Guard and received a reflective belt to wear--and they became a bit of a tyrant? That's what I mean.
That’s funny and sad at the same time.
I think the main aim of the 45 degree rule is to prevent fights. Since the majority of their clientele can’t distinguish a double hit or a push, creating this technically stupid rule has a benefit if it keeps peace in a bar.
There is no chance for a double hit when the CB is frozen to the OB. A push doesn’t occur either. Now, if there is a tiny gap between the CB and OB, that is a totally different shot and a double hit is likely even at 45 degrees.
Can you believe that in APA 9-ball you CANT push out? Now that's a ridiculous rule.
My 14.1 league has the following "cue ball only" foul rule. If you touch or move a single object ball BEFORE the shot and tell your opponent BEFORE the shot, opponent has option to replace that ball BEFORE the shot and no penalty. Otherwise it's a foul and you lose your turn. Amsterdam billiards NYC. I think this is the best approach for unrefereed matches.
That seems like a good compromise. I like it.
Last I checked, in VNEA, if the table is open, you can claim your set of balls with a legal shot and also call a safety. I have, in one quick, yet clearly called shot, claimed my set and hooked my opponent behind my newly-claimed balls. He was not ready for that at all. Apparently some missing language in the VNEA Rules has resulted in this being legal, while not legal in WSR or BCAPL rules.
I could not agree more! Moving all league systems to the WPA standardized rules would help all leagues and all players a great deal! Thanks for another great insight Dr Dave. You say what we all are thinking once again! Also can we please have a potent governing body of pool and billiards!?... My vote for a new pool czar is Dr. Dave!
Thank you for your vote of confidence, but I defer to the WPA.
There is a CB only foul in the APA too.
APA has the same dumb 45deg. rule. to get a 45deg angle most have to raise the cue above the shoulder to do so, which violates another dumb APA rule.
I'm 51 a Filipino living in Texas and have been playing Pool for 35 years. and have not played a competitive or money game for 15 years. The color of money is the name of the game. I don't know any of the WPA rules. We considered it a foul, for general reasons. We don't have the eyes like the slow motion in the camera, especially in money games a wrong call by a referee will cause chaos and violence in the pool hall/bar. We to hit it not exactly 45 degrees, but on an angle that won't look like a push in everybody's eyes in the pool hall. Filipino home-grown pool players are also hustlers, to make the games fair even without WPA rules we have general pool rules. Look back on old Efren Reyes video of a somewhat frozen ball, his stick angle is around 80. He carried with him by heart the rules we used back home and how not to get a foul. If WPA rules were implemented then, Efren would likely still do the same thing.
It seems to me the 45 degrees is not the angle of the cue but 45 degrees from straight on the frozen ball. Meaning you can shoot other balls just not the frozen ball unless the shoot is greater than 45 degrees to the line from the frozen ball to the pocket.
The 45 degrees can be in any direction. Regardless, the rule is still dumb for all the reasons I point out in the video.
In the 5 man we played in Vagas it is a foul if you are using a tool and anything moves outside of your shot
I also lost to the patch rule there broke and ran out but didn't patch
Can agree with you on everything except marking pockets. I will almost always cut a ball before banking even very thin cuts…my wife will always bank a thin cut …. So what is obvious to one person isn’t obvious to another
If you ever think a shot might not be obvious to an opponent, just call the ball and pocket, as required by the WPA "official rules of pool."
I know the cue ball fouls only rule is pretty standard in the absence of a ref but I've seen people take advantage of that to ridiculous levels - especially with their bridge. For example, I've seen some land the cue ball in a crowded area and then touch/move other balls trying to put their fingers on the table - when two or more balls are moved its kinda hard to know where they were. I've even had an instance where someone just bridged with their entire palm sitting on top of a ball and not even consider standing up and saying they touched the ball. I don't like conflict so I never call people on these things but it absolutely frustrates me.
Hi Dr Dave,
Question about the last masse example in the middle section of the video.
My biggest gripe with these rules is that they bring intent into question. Intent that wasn’t confirmed before hand. Why should it be left up to assumption that you were intending to masse and pocket the ball in the corner.
A perfect rule set should remove as many elements of doubt possible.
I play English 8 ball. World Rules (two shot fouls) have this as close as possible. The popular international rules, blackball rules or supreme rules enforce a “no deliberate fouls” rule. That is, if I’m snookered, a reasonable attempt must be made to make contact with an object ball of my group.
But a refs call on this could be influenced by body language, or being a generally average player. In “attempting” to get out I could play a deliberate foul and make it look like a genuine attempt was made. Ask Dr Tyler for sandbagging tips.
Anyway, like my blackball example, does your masse example encourage interpretation of intention? Assuming you intended to masse because of an elevated cue? What if your cuing just sucks?
Thanks - appreciate the work you’ve done for the sport.
On a shot like this, one must call the ball and pocket. I did. It didn’t go exactly as planned, but it was a legal shot (under CB fouls only rules) and I did pocket the intended ball in the intended pocket, so it counts.
DD I totally agree with you, I'm on your side, but just to avoid all the hassle, I just go with the house rules, as ridiculous as they are. Some savvy comments on here. Yes you should be an ambassador to the game. Cheers.
Thanks.
One rule I think I don't like (paricularly in APA) is the ball-in-kitchen rule after scratching on the break. The APA tries to streaming their rules to make it faster to fit 5 matches in a target 4 hour period. However if that is true, this rule does not make sense at all.
Ideally, it should be ball-in-hand after scratch on break. In games with low skill players, ball-in-kitchen rule extends the game a lot.
"Ball in hand in the kitchen after a scratch on the break" is actually the standard rule. Only CSI/BCAPL/USAPL has ball-in-hand anywhere on the table after a foul on the break.
@@DrDaveBilliards Interesting. I watch mostly the videos of matches of CSI tournaments and I don't remember seeing ball-in-kitchen on the pro-level (like on ESPN or Accu-Stats videos in the 90s). I was unaware that the ball-in-kitchen rule existed outside "bar rules".
@@coderz4life Yep. It has been standard forever. Only CSI leagues and tournaments give BIH anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break.
it doesn't happen often enough to be a problem IMO
Dave please explain to your viewers that professional pool tournaments should have alternating breaks format as well . I want to see both players shoot . I want both players to have an equal chance at the table .especially at the pro level , and if you don't win you know why .thanks
I also prefer alternate break format, but many people prefer the excitement of racks strung together and big comebacks.
It's a 45° rule because the table stops your cue stick. In the examples you show you stop your cue stick after contact but that's not necessarily the case with every player, a player could push all the way through a shot when the balls are frozen.
Good point. A double hit or push is possible on any shot if your stroke is bad enough.
I thought everyone in the world championships used WEPF rules. I’m lost to know which rules is used in an international scale. Just for clarity, I’m Australian, but I didn’t think that mattered in “world” rules
What most of the world thinks when you say "world rules" is the WPA "World Standardized Rules" (WSR). For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
APA rules are intentionally designed to boost weaker players and put the brakes on stronger players. So flukes tend to benefit weaker players, while "take what you make" reduces break and runs for higher rated players.
I fully agree with the idea of a single standard rule set though. 8 balls been around long enough that we shouldn't have this confusing patchwork of rules that change everywhere you go.
That is an interesting comment about how the APA puts "the breaks on strong players". I am an SL7 in 8-ball and I feel their rules make it easier for me to win. I will freely admit that I am more of a tactical player that a "run out" player. So, I feel that I take advantage of a lot of the nuances of the APA rules, particularly when I have to play a lower skill players where those people would have to win 2+ less racks than I do.
@@coderz4life compared to other leagues and tournament rules, APA def favors lower players. Take what you make favors weaker players because they're not breaking and running anyway, but 6s and 7s will, and not having choice after the break makes a big difference in whether we get out. And slop favors weaker players because slop shots usually only happen when you whack it and miss by a wide margin. In 9 ball, no push and no jump cues tend to slow down the stronger player. If you're comparing APA rules to bar style play (i.e. "all offense no defense/no ball in hand") then I think you're right. But compared to other more formal rule sets found in leagues and tournaments, APA is def geared towards evening the playing field.
Reducing break and runs would be good for high level players. It would require more skill to run out with take what you make, which would be good for elite 8 ball players
i lost twice in different weeks, because i was so focused on running the rack and didnt mark the pocket on 8 ball. i was new. never again . never a 3rd time.
I think for the purposes of beginners and handicapping, APA rules are fine and most importantly fun.... except the marking the pocket rule
The only benefits of this rule are to prevent severe fights and to encourage team participation by overseeing rookie players. The former might be a liability issue for the league, and the latter, I think, is a roundabout way to teach teammates to closely watch their own players throughout the game. This would help prevent rookies from making mistakes and encourage them to be receptive to coaching.
I've been preaching this for years!
Let's try to finally get it changed. Please forward the video to your league operator and send a message to the VNEA (at vnea.com) with the video link. If enough people complain, maybe they will listen.
@@DrDaveBilliards been trying for years.
Just to pick a nit on your CB foul only example, contact with the 13 resulted from the double hit. The second hit knocked your cue into the 13. I'm curious that you didn't notice and comment. More to the point, though, I'm not particularly worried about the final outcome when my opponent shoots so sloppily his follow through could knock balls willy nilly on each shot. ;-/ The reality of league play is I would suspect sandbagging and a deliberate nudge to clear a path for his next shot. Or, as in this case, be alerted to the double hit.
Thanks for the vids. I learn something from each one.
I noticed this also but didn't mention it because it wasn't part of the point I was trying to make.
I'm glad you like my stuff.
The cue hit the 13 before the second hit on the cue ball.
@@KingNast I guess I should have filmed it again without the double hit to avoid all the confusion, but I decided to leave the shot in because I thought it was interesting (a double hit and "CB Fouls Only" ball bump).
@@KingNast Ah. I rewatched it, expecting to see some inside English applied that might knock the tip aside, but saw nothing obvious.
Tap has a rule about marking the 8 as well.
:(
@@DrDaveBilliards I guess no one does it unless it's higher level tournament though.
@@Drewdownkali ... still :(
I cannot stand the, no pushout rule in 9 ball in APA. You're punishing a player off the break, which can be very unpredictable, even when you have a ball that you pocket consistently. So dumb.
I've heard that the APA position is that the push out advantages the higher skilled players. Ridiculous. Break. Make a ball. Only option is a two rail kick at the one. No pushout. Which player has a better chance of making a legal hit? Not the lower skilled player.
Yes it's stupid to leave it out. Part of the APA mission statement is to introduce young or old inexperienced players to the game. How can you do that when you leave out some of the rules or add rules.
Hi @Dr. Dave. I would love to see you making a comprehensive video of ALL billiard disciplines that have EVER existed through out the history of the sport (i.e. Russian pyramid and it's variations, Snookered, 8 ball and it's variations, rotation games, etc.). I think that if you were to include the history, rules, and other subjects you could really have enough content for a video series. I would definitely tune in for that content. Who else better equipped than you to take on this task?
This is actually on my "list" already, but it is unfortunately pretty far down on the list for now. Maybe I'll think about bumping it up.
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks!
@@naonao76 You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
Great stuff. Any pool player knows the feeling of starting a game with "what rules?" and their opponent is "..."
Thanks.
At my home bar outside of league, we play call pocket, ball in hand, open on the break. When I go up against someone I don't know, I always ask what rules they are using if I am the incoming player. If they are the incoming player, I will clarify the rules.
I got bars by me where people from equador... Mexico ect come to the table after i win and we play a game of 8 ball and i win and they will literally argue with you saying that i lost because I didn't put the 8 ball in the last pocket without ever agreeing to it before the game...i assume thats what they played in their country...i ask what rules people play at different bars but they don't do it in a different country
That's the problem with "bar rules:"
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/bar-rules
I play snooker where the push shot is not allowed. A push shot is defined where the tip of the cue touches the cure ball either in a prolonged manner literally pushing the cue ball as it rolls or where a double hit has occurred. A double hit can be defined as well as a single but prolonged hit. If the balls are touching then technically the balls are already touching the cue strikes the cue ball. If the object ball moves on this shot it is a foul because the logically the cure has struck the cueball which has hit the cobject ball more than once "at the same time". Therefore the correct way to play a touching shot is the play away from the object ball without moving it. Technically then the shot is good because you have hit the cue ball while it is touching the object ball and therefore a hit. If the object ball moves at all, it's a foul as it has been hit twice. The American 45 degrees rule makes no sense but I can imagine that it was created as a bad on not understood version of the snooker rule regarding touching balls and double hits and push shots. In snooker if the is say 1mm i.e. very very close space between the cue ball and the object ball but not touching, then how the shot is taken can be a push shot. Certainly if you strike the cue ball centre with no cu elevation you will make a push shot. To avoid this if you are close enough and tall enough you can elevate the cue to almost 90 degrees, strike the fine edge of the cue ball, causing reverse side and actually not do a push shot. If the cue and object ball were very close but not super close, say a few mm then it is possible with 45 or less degrees to strike the cue low and gentle and as well result in a good hit not cause ing a push or a double hit. I imagine the pool rule of 45 degrees striking has some how evolved due to being written with loss of translation or the understand of the physics of the balls and reasons why.
Under the WPA “official rules of pool,” with how a “push shot” and “double hit” are defined, it is not a foul to hit 8th a frozen CB. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/push/
and:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
and:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
One thing is, people rarely play snooker casually in bars between pints
As a golfer, and PGA member, the variations I see and come across in pool drive me insane. There should be a single governing body who sets rules for everything.
There is a governing body for international pool rules ... the WPA. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
But the league systems insist in "customizing" the rules:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences
If they stick to all ball fouls, thered be less need to modify rules around fouling object balls.
Agreed, but most Americans unfortunately consider "All Ball Fouls" too severe and nit-picky.
Dr. DAVE!
"Impress the ladies" - i laughed at this one.
I did not realize the VNEA rules were so different.
Thankfully we up North dont play under these.
2 things...
The 45 degree rule is very silly especially when you can back it up with slow motion as well as cue ball roll after contact.
My biggest issue ( i have many with APA ) is the 8 ball marker as you explained. Why should you mark an obvious shot or lose because A its stupid and B because you forgot.
I enjoyed this clip!
I have been back at the table a bit and should tackle some BU exams again.
Thanks again!
You're welcome. I'm glad you liked it. Excuse me for now, but I need to get back to impressing the ladies. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards "Impressing the ladies" is a bit gender insensitive. Suggestion: Please consider using "Impressing the crowd" or "Impressing the fans". Thank you!
@@mdemarco42 You're point is well taken, but sometimes being a little "gender insensitive" (with good nature, and no bad intent) can be funny. I suspect most viewers of pool videos are straight men, and I suspect most of them found my innocent comment funny. Having said that, I know some people might be offended by my periodic attempts to be funny.
I play in apa what I find annoying is all the double hits that happen.... you might not see it but you can hear the contact. And if I am being completely honest this 45 degree rule doesn't preclude a double hit or object ball fouls but most either don't know or don't care but by gosh we got that 45 degrees nonsense.
When the CB is frozen to the OB, a "push" or "double hit" is impossible with a normal stroke. Only a non-normal pushing stroke can lead to a real foul on a frozen-CB shot (as it could on any other shot).
@@DrDaveBilliards I was agreeing but also including the position where the balls are close and this 45 degree rule doesn't automatically preclude a double hit. Which seems to be the case here that it can't be a double hit because of elevation..... sheer nonsense.
@@GarrethandPipa Agreed. Applying the 45 degree rule to small-gap shots is even more ridiculous. It just gives people a “free pass” to double-hit the ball. :(
Yeah we don’t mark the pocket in my APA league, I’ve actually never even heard of this before this video
Standard APA rules require marking the pocket for the 8. See the APA link and summary here:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/rule-differences
I do prefer having a marker to nominate the 8 ball pocket. We do have some jerks in our league and having a marker eliminates any discussion about wether it was obvious or not. Less jerky players will state that they know which pocket you are going for and if agreed no marker is placed.
... then you should require that every shot be called and marked.
Now that’s taking it too far - slops is 75% of my game.
@@graemehirstwood670 That is funny, but it is also sad that the APA rules seem to be written assuming slop is a huge part of the game. 🙁
My house, my rules. If they don't like it, they know where the door is.
Hi Dave.
Great comment on most of this. Completely agree on the frozen ball rule. VNEA put that rule in to prevent issues between teams when a trained ref is not available. The average player doesn't know enough to understand what a push shot is, never mind judging it.
Patching 8 ball....
The 'patched' 8 ball pocket is important because the league is designed for new players. not calling an obvious pocket can become confusing when he missing a corner shot, and instead banks it.... shooter always wins any judgement that is not refed. It was obvious to the shooter he was going for a bank, it was obvious to everyone else that he was shooting the corner...
Patch the damn pocket then. problem solved... Forgot to patch.. you've had 16 weeks to get used to patching.... too bad. This is for lower skilled players. If Effren Rayes decided to do a 5 bank side, I'd believe it, and he doesn't need a patch. If joe blow pulls a fluke, I want to know that he meant to do that carom/bank/weird cut. This isn't world class pool we are talking about.
Open Table 8 ball usage....
You can end up with a bad table position after the break that does not give you a decent shot without using the 8 ball for combos. Since the table is open, why is the 8 ball any different then the rest. Once a ball is legally pocketed, they can only hit that type of ball. Allowing the 8 ball to be used allows more flexibility for the players of all skill levels.
Do remember that the point of VNEA is to bring more people to the game. We need to have rules that allow long skill players to be able to have some leeway against the 'pros'.
Keep up the great work, and please give some thought to the new players getting into the game. That's what VNEA/CCS leagues are for.
Thanks!
I think new players can be taught any set of rules. I just think it is better if they are taught the official rules of pool.
@@DrDaveBilliards The problem is that official set may included rules that are hard to judge for low skilled levels, or that is so frequently broken that you won't be able to play if you call them all the time. Simply, for players who miss straight shots in open pockets, if you require to call every touch during the pot, there will be no legal pots. It is like kids playing soccer/football - you do not call off-sides, or surely do not measure them to video repeat accuracy. If you do that, kids will switch to other sports :)
@@dmitripogosian5084 Concerning the 45 degree rule, I was able to convince VNEA to change the rule (for all the reasons mentioned in the video). It was removed in August of 2023.
I have been away from the game forty years and now that I am playing again I am constantly bombarded with another rule that counters the rules I just played another person under. WTF People? Our desire to not be compliant here in the USA makes us look like toddlers to the rest of the world. Thanks for the videos.
It sure would be nice if everybody would just use the same official rules of pool.
in australia, we have a foul snooker rule in world 8 ball rules, (wont go into it), however, it works really well, and I think US pool should have it.... It's not in international or blackball rules which is taking over...
The reason why it isn’t in the WPA’s World Standardised Rules for Eight Ball is because the penalty for all fouls is the same, regardless of whether the cue ball is left in a snookered position or not; the incoming player has cue ball in hand to begin their inning, and they can place it anywhere on the playing surface. That penalty is much more severe, and I think it’s better suited to pool.
More defensive rulesets, like the WEPF ‘world’ rules, which, to my knowledge as a New Zealander, are largely unknown outside of the United Kingdom and Australia (other users feel free to correct/inform me), give more of an advantage to the player sitting in the chair, which should not be possible, given that they aren’t at the table. The foul snooker rule just offers an easy way out of a really difficult shot, and, as a player of WPA rules for every discipline, it’s something that I can’t really see the appeal for.
For English-style pool (the game on the 7’x3’6”, rather than the standard 9’x4’6”) the WPA’s Blackball rules seem to be much better than the WEPF rules. If you’re referring to the rules used by the Ultimate Pool Group (UPG) as ‘international rules’, from what I’ve read, they appear to be the intermediate/compromise between Blackball and Eight Ball (using WPA names). I think the UPG are doing quite a good job at making pool more popular in the U.K. and their ruleset’s similarities to WPA Eight Ball allows for viewers outside of the U.K. to follow along.
Apologies for the length, hope this doesn’t get taken the wrong way.
The APA "No pushout" because it favors the higher skill levels is ridiculous
Agreed.
APA has recently changed this rule to allow hitting a frozen cue ball without an angle.
Smart move.
I'm guessing the reason they have the 45 degree rule, is because there might not be a ref to call whether the balls are frozen or not. So they are basically treating frozen balls as if they are slightly apart.
It is important for the opponent to check if the balls are frozen or not. 45 degrees is not guarantee against a double hit. See examples here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
If the 45 degree rules applies to small gap shots (which is not the case in VNEA or any other league I know of), then it would be a "free pass" to double-hit the ball.
@@DrDaveBilliards Interesting. What kind of angle do you need to avoid a double hit for almost touching balls? Thanks, I'll check out those vids.
@@Dhirallin With a very small gap, a double hit is possible at any angle. But a double hit is very easy to detect. For more info and examples of both, see the videos and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
@@DrDaveBilliards One scenario that comes up in my games is where the balls are almost touching and you need to throw the object ball towards the pocket. I may have definitely been guilty of a double hit on this shot. Do you have any guidelines on what kind of angle and stroke I would need to avoid this and still throw the ball? That is, how can I legally maximise throw on these shots?
@@Dhirallin If the gap is small, it can be nearly impossible to avoid a double hit without a very large cut angle. To learn how to both avoid and detect double hits under all situations, see the videos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/double-hit/
For info on how to get maximum throw, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/throw/maximum/
Enjoy!
I don't think there are problems with modifying rules as long as they aren't stupid. Like say the APA (any pocket asshole) rules.
Yeah the 45 frozen ball hit is stupid, and useless, but no worse than that dumb ass 'three balls minimum, kitchen plus pocketed' rule for negating slow breaks. You know, the one where you can smash the pack and have that happen at times. And not slow break and have it happen A LOT. I've seen many times TWO balls go in on a nine ball break, and a ball lies within inches, to even requiring careful viewing for the in/out of the kitchen call. I think if they want to negate slow breaking they should just measure the break speed. I would guess that there is a FREE app out there that does that. i had the couple of dollar Predator app, and it seemed to work well. All you need is a mic, and someone to quickly place the cue ball reasonably accurately starting position in the app before the break, easy peasy. In some pro tourneys I've seen them go to the ref determining the slow break call, and they pretty much always give a warning before calling it, unless the ball just trickles up to the rack in an obvious slow break.
Nice speed on that 9-11-13 combo, BTW.
Honestly I don't see a problem with allowing an eight ball first strike on an open table. It seems kind of similar to the push in nine, just giving an option for the incoming player, who has no control over the table setup since his opponent broke. But for consistency I wouldn't care either way. Our little local league allows it, right now.
Here's my pet peeve. CALLING not obvious BALLS IN EIGHT BALL should be a requirement of every league. Playing with somebody who thinks every shot should be hit at maximum break speed in the hope that some random ball will drop in some random pocket would just make me break down my cue and leave, permanently. It makes playing pool, for me, drop right down from the fun category into the 'please, just stick a pencil in my eye' so I'm having more fun category. Requiring a marker is inane, and if I lost for not moving a marker the entire match would be theirs, because I would walk away. I don't have to worry about that, though, because I wouldn't play in that league. Now forgetting to call the pocket, that is fine, a standard rule.
But yeah, I think the rules should prob`ably be standardized, except maybe for obvious differentiators like all ball fouls, calling that is definitely a job for a ref, not your opponent or even a third party, since only a micro touch of a shirt or whatever is a foul. No ball movement is necessary for the foul call.
And if they chose to make jumping allowable for PROS ONLY using their player's cue, that would probably not be a good rule to drag down to Wednesday night pool, as you might as well just outlaw jumping all together for the percentages on a typical amateur succeeding with that handicap. And I KNOW how much you like jumping, because you told me, and how little you would like to see that rule in amateur league, and I agree.
Bottom line, you are NEVER going to get pool rules standardized. That would be like standardizing smart phone plugs. Good luck with that. CDs and a few others, were kind of the exceptions in the consumer arena. Computer manufacturers, at least PC manufacturers have done a MUCH better job with standardizing interfaces and specs.
APA has the "make it, take it" rule in 8-ball.
Also, what's your thought on ball-in-hand behind the head string, shooting out of the kitchen rule for fouls on the break in APA 8-ball?
That is a pace of play rule in APA. Having it open table for lower skill levels can add minutes to every rack ending in an additional 30+ mins each league night.
@@redhare976 Pace of play as a reason makes no sense. Not having an open table can only make the game longer. Knowing how to choose a better side is a skill so I’m pretty sure it’s there to take the advantage away from higher-skilled players.
Most leagues make all their rules biased towards lower skill levels. Leagues grow based on adding new players which usually are lowered skilled. Lower skill level players will spend more time considering both solids and stripes vs only considering what the a required to shoot.
@@redhare976 Yes, That’s why I said that it’s there to take the advantage AWAY from higher-skilled players.
There’s a shot clock in APA. Adding “minutes” to every rack because of one shot is impossible.
@@cwg73160 there is no shot clock in APA
speaking on arbitrary rules: is it too difficult to explain a push out rule in 9 ball to a low skill level player in apa. the "No pushout" rule only perpetuates low level play, especially in a league where slop counts. ???
Vnea is a sub branch of apa and neither of them tolerate being told what rules to change. That's another issue that should be addressed
I agree with everything you said. Especially the 8 ball marking rule. I have seen it happen and also seen people call a foul because the marker was slightly over the diamond by the called pocket. Marker has to be completely inside the diamonds at each pocket and matches have been lost because it was not. Even thought the person shooting placed the marker there just before the shot.
Takes a real ass to call this foul but it happens.
Great minds must think alike. :)
I understand a lot of the complaints mentioned by Dr. Dave here. But for some leagues, like the APA, the matches are handicapped. And the play is intended to make it easier for lower level players to have a chance to win against better players. So there are definite reasons for some of the exceptions to the WPA rules within the APA league. For example, slop counts will generally benefit the lower level players more often than the higher level players. Marking the pocket is intended to ensure there is no confusion about which pocket was intended. However, I have seen people lose, because they shot an 8-ball that was hanging in the corner pocket because they didn't mark the pocket. Most of the time your opponent is going to be cordial and not be a "jerk" and declare a win because of this. But sometimes, people do. Why? Because they are trying to take their team to Vegas to win the pot. The best thing to do, no matter what league you play in, is to follow the rules of the league. I agree that some rules are silly, like the 45 degree rule. And I agree that fouls should be the same across all the leagues. I personally don't like the APA rule that you have to take what you make on the break. But I can see the argument for making it more difficult for running the table and give a lower level player who lost the lag, a chance to shoot. But you should not be penalized for making a ball on the break. I haven't played in any other leagues other than the APA as of yet; but, the biggest problem I see in the league is too many players don't know how to spot a defensive shot, and people are often lazy and don't announce they are playing safe. And it seems to me that a lot of players who are Skill Level 5's should be skill level 6's. And the players who actually call out their defensive shots, end up with a valid Skill Level based on their algorithms, but often have to give handicaps to players who are just as skilled as they are or even better simply because so many defensive shots are not counted during matches... And we either have to be vigilant at pointing out our opponents defensive shots when they occur, which can make us look like jerks, or we simply have to accept the fact that we are often going to be handicapping more than is intended. Of course there are some players who intentionally sandbag, but I think the majority is simply score keepers not paying attention, or even caring enough, to keep accurate track of defensive shots, or simply not knowledgeable enough to recognize a defensive shot. But there is also the 23 cap on the total skill level points allowed to play for the team during the match... if you get too many 5's on your team or even a couple 6's or 7's, it's difficult to balance that with a 3 or a 2 since new players generally improve quickly. And I think I could teach almost anyone to be playing at skill level 5 in a short amount of time if they put in the practice.
This is why I hate APA. Such a drag. Don't know why any decent player would put themselves through it. "Calling" safeties? No thanks. Sitting around all night with a room full of 2's and 3's who can't manage a two ball run with their Meucci's whining about handicaps? I'd rather shave my head with a cheese grater.
@@davereloader8837 Haha, I love Meucci cues! I play with a Meucci Carbon Pro and I love it. (Though I replaced the Ultra Skin tip with a Water Buffalo tip.) I find I get less hop when shooting a draw shot with speed with a harder tip, compared to a medium tip that stays in contact with the cue ball longer.
@@dryclimateutah Whatever works for you man. I prefer hard tips, too. Not a Meucci fan, but I have not tried the carbon pro.
I have a question. If only a blackball/8ball is the only object ball and it's touching cue ball, will it be foul to push the blackball or it has to be treated like others and one should play towards cushion?
Sorry, but I don’t know BlackBall rules.
Agreed, having played in VNEA, its rules about marking the 8 are ridiculous and childish. And the rule regarding the 8 can be struck first after the break on an open table is ultimately more confusing. Just prohibit the 8 from being struck first when not the object ball at ALL times. Keep it simple…
Obviously, I agree. :)
I am from 🇯🇲 and still I believe this rules about touching the 8 ball or marking the pocket is absolute rubbish
Can you do a video about using car polish and wax on cue ball and silicon spray on how that will affect cue ball paths and performance of balls?
I already have some examples here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/ball/silicone/
I also show the effects of various cleaners and waxes here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/ball/cleaning/
The 45˚ Rule seems ridiculous no matter how you look at it. What if you are short?
It is even more ridiculous for short people (although, the angle can be horizontal instead of vertical).
@@DrDaveBilliards I'm short myself. I guess if Earl Strickland can tape on finger extensions I should be allowed to wear platform shoes? Or what about a 45° angle bent cue stick?🎱😊
What if the player shoots his object ball and knocks the 8 ball in the pocket with his stick? Is it spotted or put back where the opponent thinks it was?
I think that would be loss of game. You can try to look it up in the WPA rules here:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
I was captain for over 10 years and have seen thousands of matches . The push rule has helped and hurt me many times . The only way I could think of remedy's is to go old school , I mean literally back in the 70s when you were too close to a rail cuz we were so little , ya put the butt of the stick to space it from being illegal . Perhaps make a spacer legitimate with league rules . But then an issue of making the balls lock to get a space would be a problem . Seems no matter how well you shape it , it still so hard to master your leave . The joys of pool haha
That sounds like a perfect rule for the APA … use the butt to move the CB off the rail when it is too close. 🤪😂
@@DrDaveBilliards I've been in apa since 2009 , almost 1000 matches combined 8&9 ball ,ten times that coaching , making sure to keep all team members involved .
Take the opponent give him.or her the option of spacing the cue from the push OR , STALEMATE and re rack . The push rule has brought more headaches than hearing the word sandbagger . I've brought literally hundreds of new pool players into through the APA as captain, many who are now in tapp , Bca , upa etcetera and Captain's themselves . Most ALL my warriors ( my team name since 2010) started by saying " I'm not good enough to play in league or on a team " . If I had a nickel haha, . I'm a very strong empath , clairvoyant , alll that said you can take shots at APA but if not for them , none of them players take ease on their brutal workweeks at pool league . Lives changed in many ways , heck I might've not been interested either .
If you're ever in Tacoma maybe we could shoot some games see how good a seasoned apa captain might be haha , happy billiards my friend 🎱
@@christopherframke3374 I've met and played many great pool players from APA leagues. I respect the playing ability of many APA players ... I just don't have respect for the APA "rules."
@@DrDaveBilliards you're funny , no you let the opponent not shooting have the option of allowing it , or a re-rack ,.But you already know it don't matter with any League , they won't change it . I don't care , I hardly ever come to that kinda shot cuz number 1 rule Know where your cue ball is going , number 2 you don't have to make every shot . That's only rules in my mind
Nice video, Dr Dave, as usual. I have a question for you. Do you play snooker apart from pool? If so, do you consider making a video about the differences between pool and snooker? I would like to see your take on that topic.
Sorry, but I do not play snooker; although, I love watching it.
@@DrDaveBilliards I think you playing snooker for the first time would make for a great video. It would be interesting to see how much more difficult it is for a skilled pool player.
@@KingNast I have played before, and it was quite humbling. There is much less fear and more creativity in pool. That's why I like it better; although, as I mentioned, I do love watching world-class snooker.
in germanys leagues we play wpa rules with all ball fouls even without referee. i think it is the way how pool should be played.
i never understood why american leagues even pro tournaments (accidental 10 ball for the win?! come on...the game was invented as a harder 9 ball) set their own rules.
the only thing that makes somewhat sense to me is call shot/call safety wich i find interesting as an european. don't know if i would enjoy playing it though, because it takes away clever two way shots.
what is your opinion on call shot/safety dave?
I also do not like taking away the opportunity for two-way shots.
Hey Dave this Tyler. We met and played at the VNEA championship. Is there any way, other than commenting on videos, that we could talk?
You can reach me via any of the options here:
billiards.colostate.edu/contact/
This was a great demo, but this rule is still the rule. Your demo should be taken to the appropriate leadership of each organization and given to them. Even if your right, this causes discussion at a level we can’t fix!
I’ve already forwarded the video to the VNEA Rules Committee. I will also provide input to the WPA during their next rules revision cycle.
I don't understand why you say WPA doesn't consider as a foul the cue moving an object ball during a massé or jump shot. For me and anyone in my club, there is fault because nothing can interfere with the object ball except another ball :
6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-toball
Jump or not, massé or not, if you touch any object ball with something else than a ball, there is fault.
I was referring to "Cue Ball Fouls Only" Rules. See WPA Regulation 21 here:
wpapool.com/rule-regulations/#Cue-ball-fouls-only
Thank you for your answer. TBH, in 25 years of play, I’ve never use the regulation rule : I always played as if a ref was present, with sportmanship and gentlemen behavior, and naively, I thought every seasonned players played the same. But it seems US players plays pool quite differently than Europe.
Of course, in France too, new or occasionnal players don’t know the correct rules and play some « bar rules », a mix of UK pool rules (ie 2 shots with ball in hand behind the kitchen line) and wierd things (ie if a ball is railfrozen, you can unfroze it with the butt of your cue 😂😂😂). But in tournament, WPA rules are mandatory and even if it’s very rare to have a referee (except for official tournaments), we never use the regulation case.
@@fabienbedot9645 Understood. Unfortunately, most Americans think "All Ball Fouls" is too severe and nit-picky.
100% agreed to all points made in the video. But why not go one step further and get rid of "cue ball fouls only" altogether and play all-ball fouls all the time? It's frankly IDIOTIC to allow touching or moving *any* ball with the cue or clothing except the cue ball in any shot. Not using all-ball fouls make certain safeties (such as "Chinese" snookers) pointless and alters the game considerably.
Unfortunately, most Americans think "All Ball Fouls" is too severe or nit-picky, especially if there is no referee available. It is too easy for disagreements and arguments to occur. For example: "Your shirt touch that ball" ... "No it didn't!" etc.
@@DrDaveBilliards I can see that being a problem (though it should be clear to everyone that Pool is a game of skill), however over here in Germany we‘re playing all-ball-fouls in all leagues, some with no referee, and we hardly ever see discussions like that.
@@t_corte I wish all American pool players were as knowledgeable of and respectful to the rules as it sounds like German pool players are, but that is certainly not the case.
i agree with everything ,except"marking " pocket for8 ball,its so simple to just mark it,and the reason for it is that it stops arguments ,tooo many times people say they called a pocket the were not shooting at.ethics doesnt come in to play when "money"of trips to vegas come into play.and to be honest if you lose because you didnt mark your pocket thats just being stupid,on my team we always mark and remind each other in every match due to issues with it in the past
Why is the 8 different from any other shot? If the shot is not a simple cut shot straight to a pocket, it should be called … period.
Great stuff again Dr. Dave, thanks for the well thought out suggestions here.
My APA teams where I am Captain, we have an unwritten rule; we ALWAYS notify opponents if they have not marked the pocket, and they get a free pass the first time if they quickly shoot on an obvious 8-ball out and did not mark. It's good sportsmanship, and does the right thing, which is educate and start a discussion about the rulebook. About the table being committed after sinking after break, I agree, this is one I would hope the APA reconsiders. One other not covered here, is WAY too many double hits go uncallable in APA due to the requirement to "educate" the shooter prior to the shot. I disagree with this, but understand their need to accommodate low skill level players. IMO, this needs to be shifted to the responsibility of the shooting team, and allow them to explain prior to the shot.
I think it is great your team has “good sportsmanship,” but it would be better if marking were just not required. Again, if the shot is not obvious, it should be called, but that’s it.
Our APA division has the unwritten rule that if both players agree to no markers (call shots only) on the 8, then no marker is necessary for that match. But this is a smallish Southern town division and most of the players know each other quite well.
I had my own captain call me on it. I marked the pocket with the chalk, then picked up the chalk while re-examining the shot, and forgot to replace it. It was double-hill too!
Hi Dr Dave. What do you think about the 23 handicap rule in APA for 8 ball and especially in 9 ball.
i was ranked as 9 in APA 9 ball league i know it was quite difficult for me to play unless i had a rank of 1 on the team which is hard to find.
I don't like any rule that encourages people to not get better or not play with other people who want to get better.
@@DrDaveBilliards I agree
Hi Dr. Dave from a big fan. I play in a league where they insist 9 ball is always a call shot game according to BCA and APA rules yet I cannot find such a rule. Please advise.
I have never seen such a rule.
I am with him on all but the 45 degree rule. That should stay in place because not all can shoot frozen ball shots, and it is to hard to determine fouls.
I disagree. It is not difficult at all to detect a foul because there is never a double hit or push with a normal stroke into a frozen-CB shot. Now, when there is a small gap between the CB and OB, the shot is totally different because a double hit is a real concern, even at 45 degrees or more. Some people apply the "45 degree rule" to this case also, but that is not in the VNEA rules (or any rules I am aware of). The current VNEA "45 degree rule" applies only to the case where the CB is frozen to the OB, where a double hit or push shot is not a concern with a normal stroke.
@@DrDaveBilliards I agree for semi pro to professional players it not hard to determine if the shot is a foul, but from beginner to advanced shooters this is an argument waiting to happen because you would have to use a slo mo cam (as you displayed in the video) to determine the call. If the 45 degree rule is in place, you negate this argument, and the game continues.
Love this discussion! I am a fan of cue ball fouls only and see no real benefit to foul on all balls.
And the stupid pocket marking cost me a clean sweep in an APA match once. I was left safe and went for an offensive kick on the 8 which was hanging in the pocket. The millisecond after the cue ball left the tip I realized I hadn't placed the marker. I immediately called the pocket before the cue ball was anywhere near the 8 sort of in panic mode, hoping that the other player would be a good sport about the shot if it went in, since it was literally impossible to make the 8 in any other pocket because it was so deep. Unfortunately I made the shot, and lost the game. I still won the match, but it violated the spirit of the game and I saw no real benefit to the rule in that instance. I realize that this may have also been a loss in other forms of 8ball since I didn't call the shot before hitting the cue ball, but there should be some common sense rule where if the object ball is on the shelf that the shooter doesn't have to call the shot--just for those players which will take any advantage possible and call a foul or loss for a shot even if it's literally the only shot possible.
(I see that Toam chalk making an appearance! I'm a big fan of Toam chalk!)
He made you a pretty convincing case on why the all ball foul rule is better. I have lost matches because my apponnent was carelessly knocking balls with their cue freeing them up. Being able to just return balls where you think they were is wrong. They never return excatmctly where they were.
@@KarlsCracklingCottonMouth but the non shooting opponent has the option of placing the balls back to where they “think” they were originally, so you had the option to place the balls that your opponent was knocking around. It wasn’t up to him to place them as the shooter.
@@KarlsCracklingCottonMouth I agree that allowing fouls to turn into a strategic play by your opponent is less than ideal. The biggest thing that I leverage is the option to “not move the ball back” especially when the opponents fixes a problem for me. I rationalize it in my head as *punishment* for being careless, or sometimes I really wasn’t paying enough attention to know where it was-especially if I’m giving the shooting player their space.
In the Philippines they just mark the balls when it’s likely to be hit inadvertently. The table gets covered with talc that way, but it’s definitely fair for both players. Idk if all pool halls would be cool with this in the US, but it’s definitely a fair system.
Honestly I may have flipped the story on accident but it still cost me the game.
Another thing I want to add is that where I live no matter who has the right to replace the balls teams will fight it out and throw fits if it's not exactly where they think they go. So like dr. Dave says it just affects the spirit/ Integrity of the game.
Dr. Dave: What about rules right before a break. I cant get a clear answer. Can you put the cue ball directly on the head spot? I’ve heard you can, as long as more than 1/2 is behind head-string or it has to be completely behind the head-string. Which is it? Also, in 8ball lots of confusion on how to rack the balls in the triangle. Some say each end has to be alternate ball, alternate ball on ends and 3rd row, and cant have 3 in a row of same stripe/solid. Can you clear this up for me/us.
The resting point of the CB needs to be on or behind the head string.
The only requirements for the 8-ball rack are: 8 in the middle, a stripe and solid on the corners.
For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/
@@DrDaveBilliards Thank you!
@@danielvelkovski3156 You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
Tap league I went to nationals and called someone to watch a hit back in like 2012. And I didnt know the rule but the rule in tap is as long as you make an attempt not to foul you cant foul. Lol
That's a great rule. There are several shots that are impossible, until you have a no foul rule, and then they are infinitely easy. Hustlers used to use them on unsuspecting marks.
Dr dave really chose "controversy" for the flavor of the month.
Sometimes venting is healthy for the soul.
Dave I heard the magic rack being touched on the rail was now not a foul but I can't find the rule anywhere any chance you can lead me to it
Sorry, but I am not aware of any such rule.
Some of these are plain ridiculous lmao. Played against my brother and he insisted that moving a ball with the shaft wasn't a foul, so whenever he did it, I placed the ball where I remembered it to be (troll face). Needless to say, we played WPA rules afterwards. Edit: But the worst of the worst is when people start using bar rules (8 in the last pocket, no foul when hitting the opponents ball first indirectly etc. it makes my skin crawl lol
"Bar rules" are downright ridiculous per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/bar-rules
@@DrDaveBilliards so, the ones I heard include: if you touch directly your opponent's ball first, it goes in the pocket and he gets his turn. From the kitchen shots must go over the half of the table (somewhere between the middle pockets). If you don't make a contact with anything, it isn't a foul. The first ball that goes in determines your balls, if 2 different balls go at the same time, you get to choose. Last pocket you potted your last ball is the one you must pocket the 8ball into, unless your opponent already has that pocket as his own for the 8, in that case, your pocket is the one opposite of that.
20 second shot clock in APA is assinine.
I’d like to see somebody try to enforce that one. 🤪
@@DrDaveBilliards They do in my area. It's pathetic.