Do Latter-day Saints Baptize Dead People? - Pastor Explores
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2022
- I am a Pastor reacting to a video released by the Mormon Church explaining Baptism for the Dead, a.k.a. proxy baptism. Learn with me!
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Hello Saints! My name is Jeff McCullough and I'm a Christian Pastor.
This channel is devoted to fighting criticism with curiosity as I invite dialogue between Christians and Mormons. Are Mormons christians? What do christians and Latter Day Saints agree and disagree about? Join me as I compare and contrast the lifestyle, culture and beliefs of Mormons and non-LDS Christians.
If you enjoyed this video, you might enjoy a similar video I made learning about the Mormon afterlife: • Pastor learns about Mo...
#LatterDaySaints #Baptism #BookofMormon
My late father was a convert to the LDS church. He asked countless pastors/miniters what happened to the people who had died without ever even hearing about Jesus Christ. All of them told him all those people were going to Hell. He couldn't believe in a God who would do that. When he heard of baptism for the dead and the gospel being preached to the dead as it speaks of in one of the epistles of Peter, he felt he had found his spiritual home.
So true and it's common sense. We must be Baptized and Father loves all his children. Everybody will have the chance for that sacred ordinance.
@Rich Rogers How does baptism for the dead help the majority of people who ever lived for whom there is no record of their existence? How do you begin to do baptisms for the dead for the billions upon billions of people who have lived and died in India and China alone? The majority of these would have left no records from which you could baptize for them. The number of temples is in no way keeping up with the rate of population growth in the world.
@@KD-bn8uq proxy baptisms will continue through the Millenium when deceased spirits can make their desires, and existence, known to physical proxies. thats why its a thousand years.
@@KD-bn8uq That is a very good point KD. I would ask what is the use to spread the gospel when so many will not hear it. Here is the answer - we do what we can to the best of our abilities. We are living in what is called a Telestial State since the fall of Adam when the Earth was changed from it's paradisiacal glory - the state the Garden of Eden was in. This work of Redeeming the Dead will carry on through the Millennium when Christ reigns upon the Earth for 1,000 years. Most Christian churches believe that he will come again and reign during this period. During this time the Heavens will be opened and everybody will be accounted for. All of God's children will have the opportunity to receive their sacred ordinances because of his love for them.
Being a long time member, I do not believe that the statement is true that not knowing Jesus means you are going to hell. After all, what about the religions who don’t espouse to Jesus? Try telling them they are going to hell and see how far you get!
Pastor Jeff, your respectfulness and true curiosity is so very refreshing. There are several temples under construction right now. After the building has been completely finished, and before it has been "dedicated," there is a period of time where an open house is held. Visitors are very welcome and many non-LDS people are given tours of our temples. It would be a wonderful experience for you to be able to attend an open house. We would love to have you!
I love your videos. I’m a long time member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day saints but I really appreciate your respectful and honest take on the doctrine of baptism for the dead. Keep doing these videos. You are a wonderful pastor and a disciple of Jesus Christ.
Most of the dead would in no way ever accept your "forced" conversion of them. It's disgusting to even think that or try to do that. It's an absolutely abhorrent, weir, utterly wicked practise.
@@heathermcdougall8023 You apparently do not know what you are talking about. Where did you get your information - wherever it was it was completely wrong! The ordinance is given to complete an ordinance which is required as the Savior stated with Nicodemus. People (those in spirit) can either accept it or reject it - they have their agency. They are very much alive and can think for themselves. Before you make statements as you did with such venom, you should know what you are talking about.
Don't you know that this ordinance is mentioned in the Bible once and it is not condemned at all?
Not acquiring knowledge is ignorance.
@@donlechon9381 I believe whole-heartedly what the Savior of the World told Nicodemus is true - you apparently don't or don't know about that conversation - I suggest you read it and pray about it - it's in the Bible (New Testament). You mentioned that it is only mentioned "one time" I don't keep a tally my friend and place my importance on sacred ordinances that way. If the Savior said it, it must be very important. (Matt 4:4) "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." If he himself was Baptized it must be very, very important. I do know what the Savior himself stated to John.
Matt 3:14-16 -
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh "US" to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
The word "US" is very important. The Lord even includes himself to state the importance of this sacred ordinance. He was completely obedient to his Heavenly Father - our Heavenly Father.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God like a dove, and lighting upon him:
We choose to follow the example of the Jesus - apparently you don't. We believe Baptism is very important - you don't. We believe Baptism is an essential ordinance for Salvation - you don't. You have your own belief and I have mine. We shall see who is right in the end.
Ignorance is NOT bliss!
@@supertal6074 The LDS agreed to stop baptizing dead Holocaust victims, due to Jewish outrage. So the LDS in fact do recognise, that some people/groups find it deeply offensive. If God is all powerful and knowing, as well as just, then it's up to God to sort it out. If God is unable to do this, without the help of LDS humans, then God starts to sound weak and not all-knowing and not just and not powerful and thus starts to sound unworthy of worship.
I think that we, as Latter-day Saints, would agree with almost everything you say about the spiritual and symbolic and communitarian significance of baptism. Within Mormonism baptism is associated with a specific covenant by which we promise to bear the Savior’s name, bear witness of Him, and bear the burdens of our fellow believers. There’s nothing particularly mystical or magical about the physical act itself; baptism is just the mechanism through which God has asked us to proclaim our entry into that covenant relationship. But it *does* , we believe, need to be proclaimed.
(I obviously can't speak as to whether the rest of Christianity believes that baptism is a necessary element of proclaiming your new walk with Christ or whether, as you seem to suggest, Christians see it as "good but ultimately nonessential". The Baptists, at least, seem to consider baptism to be enough of a big deal that when they saw other churches doing it wrong, they went off and formed their own denomination! ;-) And Methodists and Presbyterians, for their part, at least *used* to believe that baptism was essential for salvation; because Joseph Smith’s family was stridently informed by preachers of both denominations that Smith’s older brother Alvin, who died unbaptized in any sect, was irretrievably hellbound. Early Mormonism was full of converts whose former pastors had said similar things about those converts' own deceased, unbaptized loved ones.)
It should also be noted that immediately after baptism we Latter-day Saints undergo another liturgy, “confirmation” or “receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost” (by laying on of hands), after which we expect to have the ongoing presence of the Holy Spirit which, among other things, functions as an earnest of our salvation as spoken of in Ephesians 1. Proxy confirmations are also done in LDS temples once the proxy baptism for that individual is complete.
I think Latter-day Saints would also agree with you that Christian baptism was a continuation of Jewish mikvot. It’s just that we would suggest that Jewish mikvot themselves were a vestige of an earlier divinely-instituted baptism ritual that, by the time of Monarchical Israel, had largely lost its covenant significance due to apostasy. The penal substitution theory of atonement that you cite amongst Christians is, I think the predominant theory within Mormonism as well; though elements of other theories are also present.
I do wonder whether you overstate your case in suggesting that all Christianity agrees that the possibility for salvation-influencing choices ends at death. My understanding is that there is a palpable divide amongst mainline Christians as to whether deceased souls awaiting resurrection are conscious in any form; and at least our Catholic friends seem to believe that prayers, candle-lighting, etc. can have a positive effect on those souls in Purgatory who are awaiting final disposition.
One nuance to baptism for the dead that is often overlooked, is that the ritual is not intended to give bad people a “second chance” to turn good. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is instructive here: Abraham denies the rich man’s request, saying that the living “have Moses and the prophets; let [the living] hear them” and goes on to say that “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead”. (Luke 16:29, 31). Baptism for the dead is intended for those who, in life, were sincere seekers of divine truth who simply didn't have a chance to hear the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ or to receive the covenants affiliated with it--who never got "Moses and the prophets” in the first place, as the parable might put it. What we do in the here-and-now with whatever amount of light and knowledge that God sees fit to give to us, and the degree to which we allow ourselves to become reconciled to Him during our lifetime, remains of immense importance.
A couple of Mormon historical tidbits that may interest you: The first baptisms for the dead were done in the Mississippi River at Nauvoo, and were done without regard for gender (ie a person might act as proxy either for deceased male or deceased female ancestors). Over time, the current policy was adopted in which males are baptized for deceased males, and females for females. A claimed revelation by Joseph Smith from January of 1841 specified that baptisms for the dead are supposed to be done in a temple whenever possible, and that non-temple proxy baptisms were acceptable only “in the days of your poverty” (D&C 124:29-35). Authorization for proxy baptisms to be done in the river was revoked around 1842 once the basement and baptismal font of the Nauvoo Temple were finished; and proxy baptisms thereafter were performed there even as construction continued on the rest of the building.
@J. Smith ... Great stuff in this comment! I love the insight into the history of baptism in Mormonism in Nauvoo. I also think your statement about Catholicism is fair. When I speak about the rest of Christianity, I'm speaking primarily of protestant Christianity. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Yes, baptism for the dead is for those who were never given the chance to hear Christ’s word. We are all judged according to our works in the flesh, but because Christ is the judge, He knows whether a person was sincere. That way someone born in example rural China in 1200 AD who never met or heard of Jesus Christ but did follow the light of Christ given to all men from birth will be received to the Father’s house in Heaven.
@@HelloSaints Also an important thing to keep in mind is the term "Mormonism" is a tricky one because there are People who Fractured off starting their own Denominations many of which no longer exist. Russell M Nelson April 2020 Gen. Conference "As we commemorate the event that was launched in 1820, it is important to remember that while we revere Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, this is not the church of Joseph Smith, nor is it the church of Mormon. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. He decreed exactly what His Church should be called: “For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”. . "Opening the Heavens for Help" April 2020.
@@HelloSaints i also think this stems back to the Death of Alvin and also many of his and Emma's children who died in early childhood which is why i think joseph really gravitated to baptism as i think him losing his older brother was a big emotional trauma. with the death of children i would say this is why he focused on the age of accountability for a persons actions and at what point can a child determine between right and wrong action.
As a former member (convert), my wife is also a former member (raised in the Church). We both know all of the doctrine taught. And really very little is actually biblical. Plus, everything contradicts itself. The BoM contradicts prophets, and vice versa. Prophets contradict previous Prophets. And if the church is the “restored” church, and you claim to have the “fullness” of the gospel, then why the need for so much revelation? Why has the BoM been altered multiple times? Why has the temple ceremonies been changed multiple times? At one point during the endowment ceremony, the member was completely naked and bathed by another member and their privates were touched and blessed. Then it was changed to wearing a thing robe but their privates were still lightly touched and blessed, then it changed again to what we have now.
Ignoring the fact that Joseph had been arrested around 40 different times, and they were legitimate reasons why he was. He claimed to have the fullness and restored church. But yet so much “new revelation” has come forth.
Ever since the church was started blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood. LDS leaders were actually against the civil rights movement. They didn’t change their stance until the civil rights movement finally won. Then, they had a revelation from God that blacks may hold the priesthood. Hmm…rather convenient timing there after they lost their fight against the civil rights movement.
My friend is Mormon and was doing genealogy for his family. There was a relative that she couldn't find, she was praying to find her and she did. She told me that she has a dream, where this lady came to her and told her: thank you for finding me, I was waiting.
Wow that’s beautiful
That’s amazing.
@@apologiamixer 🙄
@apologiamixer Just because we don't believe what they do doesn't mean they can't feel the spirit. This works for them, this experience confirmed their faith which the Bible applauds. Spread the love ❤️
@apologiamixer The Holy Spirit? The Holy Ghost, the comforter. The 3rd member of The God head, whichever works for you.
As a Baptist I was taught of the importance of Baptism, how essential it was to enter the kingdom of God. I was taught early on in my life that those who did not cross the threshold of Baptism were doomed to hell. That bothered me, I was told that the missionaries throughout the world would reach everyone. Only a fool would believe that, many have and will yet die without ever having the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ into their hearts. Because of one's misfortune of being born where Christianity is unlawful, or because Christian missionaries have not reached the outskirts one was doomed. The relationship I personally have with my beloved Savior tells he loves all his children and His work will not be finished until all have had an equal opportunity to accept his atonement.
Now, as a member of the Church of Jusus Christ of LDS, I can share my first temple experience doing Baptism for my ancestors who are dead. The Temple President explained the importance of Baptism and how in mortality this ordinance must be completed, by proxy we do work for those who cannot do it for themselves. They still have the choice to accept or reject, it's all up to them.
In the Old Testament the book of Obadiah 1: 21 21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s. notice the word saviors, the lower case "s" at the beginning and that the word is plural, meaning in the Temple, "mount zion" we are doing for others, what the Savior did for all something we couldn't do for ourselves.
Our will have the gift of Baptism sitting on a shelf (if you will) waiting, the work is done, and my ancestors can be judged by the Lord and hear the words "Well done thou good and faithful servant, enter"
Very nice words indeed!
Thanks for sharing your story. I'm so glad you joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as I know it truly does hold simple and profound truths that aren't found anywhere else.
@@johnmarquardt1991 Who are you to say that someone is doomed? It is God's to judge and His alone. It is Christ's mission to save as many children as possible. Do you think He would dare leave so many billions out of this salvation? Billions who never heard His gospel? It is only the ignorant who cannot see that God is still performing His work, He is still gathering Israel. He speaks now, just as He did before. Only the ignorant would believe He would be silent and allow His blind children to interpret the Bible arbitrarily as you have.
@@johnmarquardt1991 It isn't based on good works, it never was. But there is a reason God asks you to show whether you really believe or not. Baptism is a "work" but it hardly would save us. Only Christ's grace saves us. But there still has to be a way to show you truly believe. If you truly believe then you will be baptized and you follow God's commandments. This carries you to have more faith in Christ which carries you to be more like him. That results in you working to be better and repenting. But that is "all you can do."
The issue with "christianity" is that they think they can declare they believe in Christ and that is it, they don't need to follow the commandments anymore, they are automatically "saved" no matter what. They could murder, steal and continue to sin and Christ will just brush that off as if there is no judgement. When in reality, if you truly believe, your belief would carry you to be more like the Savior and He performed many great works.
@@johnmarquardt1991 Absolutely.
Thank you for being a bridge of understanding between faith traditions. Your videos are so professional!!
In reference to the question about the LDS perspective on faith and works, the talk “His Grace is Sufficient” by Brad Wilcox, a well known LDS speaker and now General Authority in the church, gives the best explanation that I have found. The talk can be found on UA-cam.
After all you can do
Brad Wilcox is not a general authority. He is in the Young Men’s general presidency. That calling is not considered a general authority.
@@mckster56 That quote is often misunderstood. It means that no matter what you do, you cannot save yourself, we are only saved by the gift of grace. The extra stuff is more about a desire to obey the commandments of the savior and ultimately to serve others as He did.
@Rachel Aitken I LOVE that talk by Brad Wilcox. Thank you for bringing it up.
After all that you can do.......
Jesus will build 99% of the bridge to heaven, but you still have to build that 1% ....according to mormonism.
It just simply isn't Biblical.
It's so nice to hear Christians talking about other Christians with such respect and curiosity. As a member of the LDS church myself, I can confirm that baptism is very important and must be done with proper authority.
@ Movieclipz - could you explain what you mean by proper authority? Sorry, I’m a non-LDS Christian trying to understand this a little better.
>F in lds we believe that someone can only baptize people if they have the Melchizedek priesthood and I’m pretty sure you have to be a member and 18.
@GTF there are also things you can probably learn on the website or app on gospel topics if you’re curious
Also look at the comment J. Smith posted.
Ok thanks. I’ll check out gospel topics as you suggested as I’ve been to that section before. I’m just wondering what would happen to a person in a poor country that accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior but doesn’t have access to anyone with Melchizedek priesthood. Similarly, what about the millions of non-LDS Christians as we’ve never been baptized by anyone with that priesthood title.
Loved your explanation of baptism symbolism! We 100 percent agree with you on that. The physical ritual doesn’t save, but rather the meaning and promises behind it.
I have just a thought on not being able to do anything to save ourselves.
Obviously we agree with that. It’s all Jesus. However, I think it’s important not to exceed the boundaries of the model.
Take faith in Christ for example. We certainly have the power to turn to Christ and accept Him. Yet we don’t count that as work for our own salvation. Same with repentance.
In the same way, The Restored Church doesn’t teach that the ritual act of baptism saves you, but rather teaches it as a step in the full acceptance of Christ. Meaning and promises from God are the saving power behind baptism, and really all the rituals that we do.
Great explanation! I would add to your comment to say that we believe that God requires it of us. We believe that Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost which is tied to it (Acts 19 among others) is part of a covenant with God. God sets the terms. It is not to say that baptism saves us. Christ himself said, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21) So works do not save but Christ himself said that doing the will of the Father is required to receive salvation and enter into the kingdom of heaven. And it is indeed a free gift because we believe that all will have the opportunity to accept or reject baptism by proper authority so that everybody can make the promises and commitment to God as we believe God intended.
I think it is also important to note that we believe that at the time of judgment and resurrection you are no longer able to make choice and that your path is fixed from that point on or at least you are no longer able to make choices that change your outcome. We believe there is a space between death and resurrection where there is some limited ability to choose as spirits. Not the same level of choice as there is in mortality but enough to fill in the gaps of what we could not act on in this life because of lack of knowledge or opportunity. What level of choice we have in the spirit world is not something that has been revealed but if spirits of the deceased did not choose then why was the gospel preached to the dead? (1 Peter 3:19) If there is nothing to choose or nothing to change then teaching is pointless. You may as well consign them to their fate and proceed to eternity.
@@VandarAlden I wanted to make note of something about Luke 16 and the freedom of spirits to cross the gulf. The thing is that spirits cannot cross the gulf on their own they may learn things down there as spirits or angels tell them but they cannot cross that gap without living people preforming proxy ordinances for them. So they can walk the bridge opened to them by baptism for the dead. This was something that my father said and I thought it was an interesting perspective.
@@ammonater interesting point, question: who did the spirits need help from to cross the gulf?They had to rely on people not Jesus. They looked to the work of others to save them not Jesus. If it came down to Only Jesus for your exaltation, to live in the presence of God, could you say all you need is Jesus? Or would your list include a temple recommend, baptism, laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost, temple marriage, tithing? If you choose not to rely on these saving ordinances of works that depend on your ability to obey them could you then say it is only through faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross that saves? Do you believe Jesus when He said “ It is finished.”
@@sandrachanin2326 I like what you are saying. Jesus saves us it him who is the only word to which salvation follows. But I ask you this... If Jesus told you to do something such as be ye baptized, follow me, and serve your fellow man in my name would you do it or would you say "You took care of it Jesus Your work is finished. I only need to trust in you for my own benefit."
The answer would probably be "If you trust in me, If you believe in me... Do as I say."
I often use the phrase that marriage isn't about saying "I do" it's about saying "I do" and doing it. Should the person who says I do and does nothing receive the same reward as the person who says I do and does everything? Jesus tells his apostles you shall be in my father's mansions. Does everyone receive a mansion. It seems like Christianity became a game of participant rewards instead of justice.
The meaning behind it saves, you’re saying, not the physical act. You also mentioned in order to receive the fullness of Christ, baptism is a part of that covenant. To be honest, this sounds like a very nice way of telling people what to do without telling people what to do… it probably makes members feel like they are supposed to do baptism whether they realize it or not.
First off, I love talking about my faith, and learning about the faith of others. Thank you for producing a thoughtful and respectful video!!!
As best I can tell, to many Christians, baptism is a means to confess Christ, which is a beautiful and powerful spiritual principle.
To members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, baptism is a means to make a covenant with God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. And, by covenant, it means so much more than a contract. Rather, it should be thought of as a close familial relationship between an individual and God, similar to covenants made in marriage, or adoption. In that relationship, we promise to repent of our sins, to exercise our faith in him to become all that His grace allows and to serve all of God's children. He promises to forgive our sins when we repent, to grant us His grace and to save us despite our faults and weaknesses. That covenant relationship with God is necessary for salvation, and hence the work of baptism for the dead.
love that explanation.
If death/judgment is final when one dies why did Jesus Christ, upon His death, go preach to the spirits in Spirit Prison? (1 Peter 3:19-20) Paul knew and perhaps practiced baptism for the dead: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Corinthians 15:29)
Does one need authority to perform sacred ordinances like baptism? “And no man taketh this honour unto himself (performing ordinances like sacrifice/baptism/etc), but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” Hebrews 5:4
An early example of priesthood being required to perform ordinances during the time of Moses and Aaron is the Levitical priesthood (we call this the Aaronic priesthood or preparatory priesthood today). Only the Levites were ordained to perform certain ordinances and do that which was needed in the tabernacle (temple). We see early on in scripture how important it was not to perform ordinances, like sacrifice, without authority. In fact, those in the Old Testament times who administered outside of these bounds were cursed by the Lord.
As members of The Church of Jesus Christ, “We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.” -Articles of Faith 1:5
Now, is baptism required for salvation? Absolutely. It’s what Heavenly Father commands us to do in order to begin taking upon ourselves the name of His son Jesus Christ.
Jesus himself taught “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, HE CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God.” Why is it required? Those who are baptized enter into a sacred covenant with God to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, keep His commandments, and serve Him to the end. In other words, ordinances are the Lord’s way to help us make and keep sacred covenants.
We are baptized by one in authority to enter into a covenant with God (little children do not need to be baptized because they don’t know the difference between good and evil yet) and in so doing God promises to wash away our sins. Jesus Christ himself, who was perfect, chose to be baptized to be obedient to the Father: “And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!” (2 Nephi 31: 5)
As Jesus taught, baptism is required to be born again, and begin a new life. But this is only the beginning. “And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.” (2 Nephi 31: 19-20)
Finally, each week, members of The Church of Jesus Christ partake of the Sacrament (another ordinance like baptism) which help us renew those covenants we made in baptism. Here is the blessing on the bread: “O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen.”
We read about Christ giving priesthood power to His Apostles in Matthew 10:1-8. This higher priesthood (we call it the Melchizedek priesthood in The Church of Jesus Christ) is given by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority. This is traced back to the resurrected Peter, James, and John (who received this power and authority from Jesus himself) appearing to the prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in 1829. Jesus Christ himself was a priest after the order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 5:6)
The Lord has said in these last days regarding the priesthood: "Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest." (D&C 84: 20-21)
Everyone watching: PLEASE UNDERSTAND that Proxy Baptisms are done for people and THEY get to decide whether to accept it on the other side of heaven. No one is forcing baptism on anyone.
Oh... "THEY get to decide whether to accept it on the other side of heaven." I see. I see. And how do you know whether or not they accept it?
@@davidstork5604 that’s for them to choose, we don’t need to know what they choose. That’s between them and God
@@davidstork5604 you don't need to know. but after this life you will know for sure
@@davidstork5604 It isn’t important to know if they accept it or not. The act of doing the baptism for them is an act of charity. That’s why we do it. The works show faith. It is similar to what the Levites would do, acting as a proxy for Israel.
I will say though, in doing the temple work, I have felt impressions from the Holy Spirit of those who are especially excited to have their temple work (baptism for the dead, etc) done.
I never understood why people get so offended about this practice.. I’ve heard some people literally believe we are forcing these souls into hell. Like, do they really believe their God would allow us to force people to hell without their choice?
Two of the reasons that proxy baptisms are restricted to Temples in LDS theology, is first the Temple symbolizes a unity between the Spirit world and that of the living. The second has to do with the division between Aaronic and Melchizedek ordinances. The Bishop is the president of the Aaronic Priesthood, which has responsibility for physical ordinances, like Baptism and the Sacrament of the Last Supper (often abbreviated in LDS culture as just "the Sacrament"). Most of the Melchizedek ordinances take place in the Temple, with Confirmation or Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost the rare exception.
While the Bishop and/or Mission President has the keys of authority for living Baptisms, it is the First Presidency who has the Keys for ministering to the dead. That authority is delegated to the Temple Presidency. A whole "my House is a House of order" thing. Saints Unscripted recently posted a decent explanation of the difference between authority and keys if you are interested.
For the longest time it was believed that the only reason Melchezdick Priesthood holders(that were endowed) could perform work in the temple is because of the spiritual nature of it. But now they allow priests(Aaronic Priesthood) to perform the baptism in the temple and allow unendowed Melchezdick Priesthood holders perform confirmations in the temple.
@@jackiechoate6163 Your understanding of the history is not entirely accurate. It was not until the 1950s that policy limited proxy baptisms to endowed elders. The recent policy changes are a reversion to an older tradition in the Church. The point is that it is the Temple President, and not local bishops, that have the delegated authority over proxy baptisms.
You may be correct that was the justification that some members told themselves following the earlier policy changes. There were many other changes made in the 50s, like assigning the Techers quorum responsibility for providing the bread for the Sacrament. Prior to that it was the Relief Society. Often policy changes are not explicitly explained and so folk traditions arise. The Temple is still repetitive of the border between the Spirit World and the mortal one. That is what is important.
@@brettmajeske3525 Yes, many many changes. I agree with your assessment of folk tradition reasoning especially if you grow up thinking this is how it's always been.
Going further, the first baptisms for the dead were done outside of a temple, because there wasn't one. Joseph then taught the members that as they approached the construction of the Nauvoo temple, that it was the place where baptisms for the dead were meant to happen, not outside of it. I don't remember his exact reasoning though.
A change as the practice was being refined is that males would get baptized for either gender, same with females, which, with the adding of the restriction that the temple is the place to do the ordinance, also started being split as males getting baptized for males and females getting baptized for females.
Living baptism can be performed by priests in the Aaronic Priesthood.
I really enjoy these videos for two reasons: 1) As you explore the teachings of The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints you are exposing others to these teachings in a fair and respectful manner, and 2) I learn so much from you about the beliefs and teachings of other Christian faiths. The purpose of your videos is to not judge but understand. And that is exactly how I feel as I understand more about your beliefs.
Hey I have to say I love that you’re actually trying to understand the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Because most videos I see of people interacting with this church is one of automatic dismissal.
Again huge respect to you for being this way as a person!
I am loving this channel. I have been a member of the LDS church my whole life. We lived all over the world growing up so my friends were all different cultures and faiths. I loved seeing how others worshiped. Do you like CS Lewis? He talks about faith and works working together like a pair of scissors. Neither blade will work on its own. So no, we cannot work our way to heaven, we have to have faith in Christ. But, if we have faith in Crist, than we try to keep his commandments, and He works in us to make us better. Your thoughtful comments have helped me to understand some mainstream Christian ideas that I wasn't getting before. I had a couple Methodist friends tell me those that did not know of Christ throughout history were doomed to Hell. I am not sure if their understanding was mainstream for Methodists, but that bothered me. You seemed to say that Christ saves all who would have chosen to follow him if given the chance? Not sure if you said that or I imagined it. Anyway, your thoughtful and patient curiosity gives me hope that even though we may have differences we can work together to celebrate Christ and make the world a more joyful place. God bless you!
For the parable you quoted, I think the rich man couldn't do anything for himself in the after life because even though he knew the law, he didn't follow it on purpose.
Disobedience to God's law on purpose (having the knowledge of God's law) will be the reason of our fall.
Pastor Jeff another great video!
We too believe in the burying of ones old self and becoming a “new creature” it isn’t the act alone that does this but the act helps symbolize ones faith journey.
We too believe that it is very very important for people to act and choose while in this life. Baptism for the Dead isnt a 2nd chance for those who reject it while on earth. Our scripture in the Book of Mormon sheds light on this subject as well.
Alma 34:33
“33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.”
No labor can be performed for those that rejected it here.
Baptism for the dead is for those who never had a chance to hear of Christ and in the context of our Faith, accept Jesus through a covenant relationship covenants established through ordinances.
Ordinances like Baptism :)
Keep up the great work and Keep The Faith!
Love this!
I had no idea LDS church member did this until recently. What other important LDS beliefs aren't widely known by other Christians?
Iv gone through all your videos and I enjoy them very much. I was a convert to the mormon church 11 years ago knowing close to nothing about Christianity so I took everything they were saying as true, from Christ, pure saving gospel. as the years went on I started to realize that salvation isnt the goal at all, almost never do you hear about salvation on sunday mornings in church, general conference, church media, or publications. The main goal for members of this church is to progress to godhood. to be exalted to the highest degree of heaven. to do as God has done, create worlds and spirit children. and if your a female your job is to (i guess) birth all those spirit children. some people will tell you the following is not LDS doctrine but it certainly is. "as man is god once was, as god is man may become". This is the ultimate goal for members of the church, this is doctrinal (according to church leaders) and its what we should all be working towards. so... I give you the doctrine and belief of exaltation, heres another. Forever families. super important in LDS beliefs. its said "families can be together forever" im going to repeat that with emphasis on the word can. "families CAN be together forever" that word "can" instead of "will" is what keeps members in line and always working towards the highest degree of heaven. outside of the highest degree of heaven families will be separated "there will be empty chairs" as its said to encourage you to stay on the covenant path. so.. unless you do XYZ your entire mortal existence you will not fulfill gods plan for you (exaltation) and you will not have your forever family. everything that is taught in mormon theology in meeting house, general conference, church media ect points towards this, including baptisms for the dead. baptisms for the dead is one of the works that must be done for you to reach the highest degree of heaven, it is what god commands and we know this from the prophet. failure to do so is will stop you from progressing towards godhood.
@@jessea2871 A lot of what you said is close to truth, but not quite, and your spin doesn't really help make things clear. But you do know that God being man so man can become God is the entire premise of all Christianity right? and The general idea that most of the Christian world has regarding Families in heaven is that families WON'T and CAN'T be together forever? Almost all Christian faiths testify that through Christ men and women can become gods, they just aren't quite as blunt about it as we are, they don't say "gods" but they describe gods.
@@justiningham187 you may be right about other Christian faiths, i don't pretend to know and that's why I spoke in terms of Mormon belief. if it makes you feel better that other faiths believe this, im happy for you. personally i dont believe this and i dont believe this is what god wants for us. I am interested tho, if you could direct me to biblical teachings that God being man so man can become God being the entire premise of all Christianity I would gladly study it and thank you for showing me the way. Also, you said im only close to the truth, I, in no way want to start an argument but could you please tell me where i went wrong. TY
@@jessea2871 John 1:1-14 is the first one I can think of off the top of my head, pretty much all of Romans Chapter 8 describes this as well. This next one isn't the Bible itself, but the man who first compiled the New Testament, Athanasius, in an attempt to summarize Christian beliefs said, "God became man, that man might become God." this is still recited in various catechisms of different Christian denominations. The Whole idea of Christianity, is that God was once a man who suffered and died for our sins, and conquered death. And because God was a mortal man like us, through his grace we can be made perfect, immortal, and glorified, living in heaven. What else do you call a perfect, glorious, immortal being, that lives in heaven and is a co-heir with Christ if not a god? This idea is universal among all Christian denominations because it is what Christianity is. Sorry if this comes across as hostile it isn't meant to.
@@jessea2871 you asked me about where you went wrong, I would say you started going slightly wrong almost immediately. for example we talk about salvation all the time, probably to the same degree we talk about exaltation, which itself includes salvation. When I type in salvation while searching for LDS conference talks I get 10 pages of results, the same amount I get when I type Exaltation. Stating the main goal of members of this Church is to attain godhood (to become like God) as if that isn't the goal of every Christian on the planet, was a mistake, literally every denomination teaches this. I appreciated how you said "(I guess)" when referring to women giving birth to spirit children, because if we are to assume things such as the King Follet Discourse which when into the idea of becoming like God heavily are 100% correct, then it is safe to say no women is giving birth for eternity, as all Spirits are uncreated and eternal. Truth be told almost anything regarding what "godhood" entails is speculation, and anything regarding what God the Father was doing "before" he was God is speculation as well. There are many different interpretations of "as man is God once was, and God is man may become."
Regarding forever families, frankly I have never heard this said in church, I have only really heard it mentioned by those who want to attack the idea that families can be together forever, perhaps I missed it. The word "can" is not designed to be nefarious to "keep members in line." I have never heard, nor do I know anybody who has ever heard "there will be empty chairs" nor any kind of threat to take away someone's family.
You have showed a complete misunderstanding of the covenant path/what covenants are, I am really sorry that nobody ever explained it correctly. If you understand that we believe the Bible, including the words of Paul, that we believe in making and keeping covenants with God, and think their is a conflict/contradiction, then I have to say that you probably misunderstood what we are saying. The act of being dunked in water doesn't save anybody, we don't believe it does, it is Christ's grace that saves us. we simply accept Christ through these covenants. if we don't accept Christ then we cannot be saved, because God will not force us. It is not about doing, it is about becoming, allowing Christ to change us.
Thank you for your respect and kindness to us as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I love the Lord Jesus Christ with all my heart and am so grateful that I am blessed to be a member of this church.
Performing sacred temple work is a great privilege, which I continually strive to do.
I can’t wait to meet my ancestors one day and know that I’ve given them a wonderful opportunity, if they choose to accept.
Thank you Brother
Great video! If I may, let me attempt to explain how we (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) view salvation with an analogy:
I love skiing. There is something so freeing about flying down a beautiful mountain with the wind blowing in your face, taking in breathtaking views. There are so many moments that seem surreal, and even absolutely perfect.
For the sake of the analogy, let’s say that skiing represents something so good that it naturally invites joy; that is, it represents goodness itself.
Now, for the analogy: there was a great skier. He was the best of the best. Skiing at such high level brought him indescribable joy. He wanted to share that joy with as many people as he could. This man had two children. The much older one was already an unbelievably great skier, on par with his father. The youngest child had not much experience yet. On the younger child’s 12th birthday the father gifted him with brand new skis, the best gear, and an unlimited pass to any ski resort for the rest of his life. This man, unfortunately was going to be away for eight years, but he promised his son that He would be back and if the son used his gift wisely, he could experience all the joy the father had and they could ski together for the rest of their lives. The father employed the young son to go skiing with his older brother, and that his older brother was so skilled that only by really listening to him could the young boy get to the level his father was. The elder brother also said he would be ever ready to teach him and guide him in learning how to ski whenever he needed.
Time passed and initially the son was excited and grateful for the gift. He went with his older brother. He started out and fell repeatedly on the bunny hill. The snow felt colder than he would have liked and by the end of the day his feet started to hurt in his boots. He thought… maybe this is not all it’s made out to be. He went a half a dozen more times, but with only little improvement. His older brother was ever patient and willing to help and teach, but still The younger boy thought, “that’s it, this is not what I thought it would be”…. And he stayed home for the rest of the season. Three years went by and he did other things. Many times the older brother would call and knock his younger brothers door, but his younger brother shut him out. Then, eventually the boy met some friends who really liked, and even loved skiing. Many of them knew his father and brother and had utmost respect for them, being the greatest skiers in the world. This enchanted the boy and reignited the flame of excitement in him to learn how to ski. It wasn’t easy, and many friends helped him along the way. He even started to ask his older brother for help again, who was eager and ready to give it. The last few years he went from bunny hills, to green hills and then to blue. He started to really like skiing, but only to a point. Some friends would go on black diamond runs, and he hated that. Too steep, too scary, too technical. The boy stuck with those who would go on green and blue hills, and that is where he truly felt comfortable and happy.
Eventually the father returned. “My boy! Are you ready to ski?” The father asked excitedly.
“Yes, I do like to ski. Thank you for your gift!” Replied the boy. “But, I don’t know if I will be able to ski with you. I know you choose the hardest hills and runs…. And I’m just not at that level, I not even sure that I want to be.”
The older brother chimed in, “He’s right Papa. He didn’t always want to ski, but he has done some practicing and is certainly comfortable with green and blue hills.”
The father was visibly disappointed, however, with all the warm and love he had he told his son, “I understand. You are right, we will not be able to ski together. If I were to ski down to a lower level, I would not be who I am, nor would it as fulfilling as where I now ski. I also teach many others at such a high level, and I can’t break my commitment to them. However, I am so happy that you have come to feel some of the joy I have. You can have a season pass for the rest of your life and all the skis and gear you need.”
“Thank you so much” replied the boy gratefully.
In this analogy, skiing represented goodness itself. The father as our Heavenly Father and the older brother as Jesus Christ. The gift represents salvation and all it entails. Skiing isn’t always easy and can be rough learning at times, but for those who know and stick with it, it is always worth it. The gift was free and unmerited, but in the boy’s current state he could not fully receive such an amazing gift. He had to develop the capacity to receive it. He needed the lessons only his older brother could teach.
Though the gift was so freely given, it did not obviate the effort needed by the boy. In-fact, the boy was using the very free gift in seeking to fully receive all that the whole the gift entailed.
This is salvation. We are not earning salvation, we are learning salvation. In this analogy the younger boy received the gift, but could never experience it in its entirety. In-fact, he didn’t really want to. You could say he was “saved” but not “exalted.”
I hope this analogy helps with how we view salvation as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
God bless.
Chris I would say you could add one more clarification. the Green, Blue and Black runs can equate to the degrees of glory, bodies Celestial, bodies Terrestrial, and bodies Telestial, (sorry, don't remember Paul or Peter or both) only those who learn to ski like the father enjoy the fullest joy and exaltation in the Celestial kingdom. The loving father however allows everyone who learned to ski at all - learned of our Savior and tries to follow him - are welcome to enjoy whatever level of slope - the degree of heaven/salvation they choose. excellent analogy. though not good for me. In AZ i dont get to ski much. I'm green sloped all the way.
THANK YOU SO MUCH for referring to non-LDS Christianity. It's just such an accepting and non-polarizing way of acknowleding the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a Christian theology. As a person who grew up with her friends and teachers telling her that she, as a strong believer in Christ, wasn't a Christian -- that really means a lot!! 🥰
Agreed 100%
Additionally, (and without malice I might add) whose job was it to define a Christian in the first place? Bible scholars? In what world can you call someone not Christian, even though their church is named after Christ, they pray in the name of Christ, they believe in and teach about Christ, and of all else....refer to themselves as Christians. Just saying....
mormons aren't Christians though.....
They believe in a totally different Chist
@@DrDoerk
How so? We believe in the Jesus Christ that we learn about in the Bible. How is He different from the Jesus Christ you believe in?
@@melissasonntag347 mormons believe Jesus is the offspring of God the Father and his goddess wife.... they also believe that Jesus and lucifer are brothers....
John 1:1-14 tells us that Jesus is the eternal God and the creator of all things.... so how could he be lucifers brother if he created lucifer? And how could he have been born from a godess if He has always been?
@@melissasonntag347 mormonism also teaches polytheism, when the Bible is clear that God is monotheistic.
Great videos! I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints and appreciate your rational approach to helping us all learn about each other. Regarding the practice of baptism for the dead, have you discussed 1 Cor. 15:29? It reads, "Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?" It may have been discussed in one of the other 829 comments, but I can't go through them all to find out! Thanks and keep up the great videos!
This is the scripture I keep thinking of through this line of comments. Thank you for bringing it up!
I am LDS and have always been curious as to how this particular scripture states doctrine. It's just a question that appears to say, "Why do it at all?"and does not really promote any importance to baptism for the dead. Also, this is the only scripture in the bible which mentions anything about proxy baptisms for deceased individuals.
It’s saying if the dead did not rise then there would be no reason to baptize them. Earlier in the chapter it actually rebukes those who say the dead rise not again. So it’s confirmation that since they rise again there is a need for them to be baptized
Thanks for the respectfulness and curiosity! I’ve enjoyed your videos so far. Keep them coming!
I follow the logic of your points and I’ve had similar conversations with other Christians sharing those views. In fact, if I agreed with the assumption about no progression after death, I would also agree that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. It simply wouldn’t make sense for only a select few of God’s children to be saved because they were baptized in life.
However, I believe that strong doctrinal support exists for some degree of spiritual progression after death. 1 Peter 3-4 and John 5 both reference preaching the gospel to the dead. I’m sure you’ve also heard references to 1 Cor 15 about the ancient practice of baptisms for the dead. And then there’s John 20 which mentions that Jesus didn’t ascend directly to his father after death but had a period for at least 3 days in between (I don’t think the Bible alone implies what he was doing during this period, but LDS interpretation and revelation teaches that he was organizing the work of the preaching the gospel among the dead (D&C 138)).
What are your thoughts on this? If death is final concerning our standing with God, then why bother preach the gospel to the dead?
To be clear, we do hold a strong belief that THIS life is our time to prepare to meet God, repent & show faith. And that our dispositions and desires won’t really change after death (Alma 34).
But to me, baptism and temple work is one of the most beautiful doctrines of our faith. It answers one of most important questions of the soul in Christianity, about the millions of people who didn’t have the chance to accept Christ during their lives. This work goes hand in hand with the work of preaching the gospel to the dead, allowing all God’s children the chance to accept Jesus as their savior.
@9:37 In the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, we have a saying that goes “Baptism is an outward expression of an inward commitment.” We use that saying for all our temple covenants too and the wearing of the temple garments.
Dear Pastor, it really does boil down to whether the Book of Mormon is the 2nd powerful witness of Jesus Christ. If Joseph Smith really translated the plates from reformed Egyptian to English by the power of God. Then all the other revelations he received can be read, discussed & prayed about. The place to START, the place to be is sincerely reading. Searching...and asking God (our Heavenly Father) by the power of the Holy Ghost if this book is true...and weaves itself beautifully with the Holy Bible. I testify with all my mind, heart, and soul that this Book of Mormon is filled with the light of Christ and will (can) illuminate his truths--in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Please don't ask us to decide whether the BOM is true or not. There is much more to this religion than what is written in the BOM. New revelations happen everyday, and it changes the culture of the people who follow this religion. Even though the book stays the same, the culture and teachings and rules change. Do I believe the BOM is true? I prayed and researched and listened to the spirit and got my answer. And I believe that answer.
BOM is #1. C'mon?
@@jalobatime don't ask us to not ask that. If you want to know anything we ask God.
If Joseph Smith is false then so is the book of Mormon. You are making this harder than it needs to be. The Bible is not the only book of prophets. There are books missing from the Bible. So we are missing valuable teachings. This is why we say that the book of Mormon is the most correct. We are not trying to be boast full about it, just trying to state the facts. If you want more wisdom and need answers God has told us to ask.
I promise you that the doctorine and principals never change. It's policy's will.
If you believe your answer was no then don't live it. You will find amazing miracles if it was yes. I know I have.
There’s definitely a bias here tho. Have you read every other religious text out there to know if it also does the same thing. You hav the same testimony throughout the world for almost every religion.
❤❤❤
I would like to commend you on the way you handled this subject on LDS baptism, without condemnation and lies.
In John chapter 3 verse 5, Jesus put it in a way that we can all understand, King James Bible
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
What about all of God's children that have died and not had a chance to be baptized through no fault of their own, surely God provided a way.
Jeff, my friend, another solid video with fantastic insight into your beliefs along with mine! I remember, when I was a kid, my classmates used to ask if we unburied people and threw their corpses into water. Lol! Absolutely not. Baptisms for the dead, in my view, is a very loving and caring thing to do for our ancestors. Thanks for hitting on this topic.
First of all, wonderful video. I knew it was going to be good because you habitually used the entire name of the Church as opposed to just calling members of the Church "Mormons." I agree with pretty much everything you presented.
Now, I must say something pertaining to the need of priesthood authority to baptize. LDS members believe that baptism is more than an outer manifestation, but a covenant one makes with the Lord, and to make such a covenant (or contract) it must be officiated by one the Lord recognizes. They see priesthood holders as a divine version of a notary public. The role to perform all sacred ordinances from sacrifice to Tevilah (or sacred washing for a rebirth of spiritual life, what we refer to with the Greek word Baptism) was performed by, and limited to, the Sons of Aaron and the sons of Levi, which is where the Word "Aaronic Priesthood" or "Levitical Priesthood" comes from. The Sons of Aaron and the Sons of Levi were the Lord's notary public and represented the Lord. Their role was to prepare the people spiritually through the administration of these ordinances for the Lord's (or the Messiah's) coming. Since members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints perceive Jesus Christ as literally the Messiah and Jehovah incarnate, (a.k.a.: the one who spoke to Moses and commanded that the sons of Levi and Aaron, through the authority He bestowed upon them through Moses), Latter-day Saints do not perceive Jesus as merely a someone who has adopted a Jewish practice as a means of welcoming new members into a religious community, but someone who was reaffirming the very same priesthood order and authority he (as Jehovah) established long ago through Moses to welcome those to enter his literal kingdom upon Earth through covenant.
Is it any wonder that in the Gospel of Luke 1:5, Luke describes in detail the lineage and background of John the Baptist? Luke writes that John the Baptist's father, Zacharias, was of the "course (or house, or order) of Abia," the same house listed in 1 Chronicles 24: 5, 10, & 19 (v.5 lists this house as "Abijah") as one of the Aaronic Priesthood houses called and set apart to preside in the temple and to administer temple ordinances. Luke also describes John the Baptist's mother, Elizabeth, as "being of the daughters of Aaron" (Luke 1:5). Why go through such lengths to describe the lineage of a single prophet? And why all the connection to the Priesthood Order to the Sons of Aaron and Levi? Latter-Day Members of the Church believe, as did Jews of that period, that both priesthood lineage as a son of Levi along with personal worthiness qualified John to be bestowed the authority necessary at that to baptize in the Lord's behalf, which is found through the Aaronic Priesthood. That is why when John said that he was in need to be baptized of the Savior, Jesus explained to John his need to be baptized of John "to fulfill all righteousness." In the eyes of Latter-Day Saints, they reason that Luke felt it was necessary to stress this point regarding John's priesthood lineage in his gospel because John the Baptist, the son of Zacharias and Elizabeth, would be the one who would need such authority to baptize the Savior himself. In the great relay in Levitical/Aaronic Priesthood holders, John the Baptist was their "Michael Phelps" (pardon my Olympic swimming reference) in preparing the people for the coming of the Savior. Later, when Jesus began his ministry of re-establishing his kingdom upon the Earth, he gave bestowed his priesthood power (both the Aaronic/Levitical, and the Melchizedek) upon all worthy disciples, starting with his Apostles.
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints testify that this priesthood was restored back to the Earth on May 15th, 1829 by Jesus Christ through a heavenly messenger who identified himself as the one once called John the Baptist (Doctrine and Covenants Section 13). According to Joseph Smith's account, this angel placed his hands upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery's Heads as if to administer a blessing (as was done to ordain priesthood candidates in ancient days) and said the following:
"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the key to the ministering of angels, and the gospel of repentance and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the Earth until the Sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness." (D & C 13:1).
I hope this wasn't too long. If it is, I do apologize.
As a member of the church and a returned missionary, I greatly appreciate the respect and reverence with which you speak of my faith! Thank you!
I love all your videos! I served a mission in Indiana and loved speaking with members of various Christian churches, their faith and reliance on Christ is inspirational. You have so many great questions! I bet you have some friends who are members of the church or other people online who you connect with, but I’d be happy to answer any questions. Next time you’re watching one of these videos and wish you could talk back to the video, I’d be happy to be the one to answer. Thanks for your kindness and positivity and for sharing your faith as well!
I have always believed if people would come together to have respectful conversations about religion, we would find we have far more in common than different. I love inter faith discussions and I really love what you are doing. honestly, I have had really bad experiences with non denominational christians judging me as an LDS member. You have reminded me that not everyone is like that!
I loved when you spoke about the symbolism of death and rebirth in baptism! the LDS teaches the exact same symbolism and I didn't realize other religions believed that as well!!
I also wanted to add to the conversation to say we do believe Christ is the only way we can return to God and receive salvation. we do believe that we need to enter into certain covenants with God during our lifetime. we make those first covenants at baptism. we do believe it's a necessary step to take to more fully understand God and to form a special relationship with Him. it's a commandment that we believe Jesus modeled for us and is necessary for us to do. however, it isn't the baptism that brings us Salvation. without Christ a baptism would be meaningless and would do us no good at all. He is the one who saves us. We just believe that to truly accept this gift we need to follow His example by keeping the commandments.
I love these videos. I want to take a moment to add, if it was important enough for Jesus to be baptized, there is value in it for us... as we are commanded to follow Jesus.
I was inactive for 22 years. I came back to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints a year ago. After a couple of months of attending church again, having gone through the repentance process, I received a personal revelation that made clear to me; Where we end up, which kingdom we go to is up to us. This life, in my opinion, is about building our relationship with God and Christ. When I was inactive I didn't want to be around my family as much even though we have always been very close as a family. I was uncomfortable in certain situations, ie being at church, etc.
Brad Wilcox gives a talk entitled His Grace is Sufficient, that gives a great explaination.
I believe, those who do not develop a relationship with our Heavenly Father and Christ, will not *want* to be in the presence of God.
This idea manifested itself to me last summer while I was attending my uncle's funeral.
My best friend who is gay and doesn't practice any sort of religion, drove with me from Salt Lake to Dallas. My cousin lives in a large beautiful home, full bar, swimming pool, etc. they do quite well for themselves. When we left to go to my other cousins house where we were staying, my friend said "When people tell you to 'Make yourself at home', I've never felt like they really mean it. *That* was the first time I felt like they meant it."
The cousins house we stayed at (also not religious) was a nicer home, not as extravagant, but again, my friend felt right at home. On Sunday morning we were invited to have breakfast with my cousins at their grandparents home. They were devout Christians, lived in a beautiful home that looked and felt very much like the Celestial room in a Latter Day Saint temple. Although he was greeted with the same kindness and hospitality after about 10 minutes he left the house and I found him later scrolling through social media on his phone in the car. He just wasn't comfortable in that environment. Coming to that realization, that's when Brad Wilcoxs' talk really hit home and made sense to me.
I may be way off base, but those are my thoughts about where we end up, be it the highest glory in Heaven, or a lesser Kingdom.
I have really enjoyed watching your journey of exploration. I have learned a lot of things from you that I had forgotten about in the past 2 decades.
Thank you for your insight and open-mindedness.
1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will THEY do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are THEY baptized on behalf of the dead?”
We do know by comparing it with the rest of Scripture that it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by someone else being baptized on his or her behalf, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4). The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the surety of the resurrection, not about baptism for the dead.
The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died-and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses "THEY," not "we"). Paul certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place?
The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural nor sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn’t change a person’s eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
There are no 'levels of heaven.'
Revelation 21 and 22 tell us what heaven will be like.
Believers will be all together on the new heaven and the new earth serving God and Christ. People will not be separated on different planets. People will not be separated on different 'levels.'
God will not damn those who deny the 'eternal principle' of polygamy (D&C 132). God will not destroy women who don't abide by their husband's adultery. (D&C 132:54). God is not having women share there husband's with other women for all eternity and the 'other women' will not be serving as sex objects for LDS men who happen to get to the 'top level' of heaven.
Only an evil Heavenly Father will do these things. Heaven is not a house of horrors. God loves everyone including women!
If God's grace, unmerited favor, is sufficient, then I don't have to tithe to the LDS church, go through a 'worthiness interview,' get a temple recommend, go through a masonic Endowment Ceremony, get married, etc..
Ok.
Enjoyed your insights. When you take the time to really listen you find we believe much more the same then we believe differently. Yes you have different conclusions which I would love to discuss but I feel this forum makes it more difficult to have a discussion. Keep up the good work
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I want to say that I appreciate the respectful way you explore our religion. It's refreshing. A note about people being taught in the spirit world after this life, before the final day of judgement, is that we are so grateful that our Father in Heaven recognizes that not all of His children will ever even be in a position or have the opportunity to even hear of Christ, let alone worship him, obey His commandments and live right. It is to these that The Plan of Salvation, as it's called, allows for every single person born on this earth to have the opportunity to be taught, so that each person can choose to accept or reject for him/herself. But because there are saving ordinances, baptism being one of them, that have to be performed in the flesh, that baptism by proxy is performed - and you're right, only in the temple.
He is not trying to explore our religion.
well of course there has to be an after death back up plan. the LDS members only make up 0.2% of the world's population
Thanks for doing these Hello Saints videos - love it! At least part of the answer to your question of why baptisms for the dead are done in the temple is found in D&C 124 (start with verse 29 or so). There is additional info on baptism for the dead in sections 127 and 128. I believe historically, the first baptisms for the dead were done in the Mississippi river, just before section 124 was received.
This is helpful. Thanks!
I love your videos. My children were raised as LDS and I was a convert at 21 after being raised in the Catholic church. After graduating from Catholic school, I went to a different church every week until I found the LDS faith. Later in life I had an agonizing personal review of my life, and felt I was in the wrong church, wrong line of work, and in the wrong marriage. I appreciate how God helped me through this trial. I changed careers to something I loved, divorced my ex, and married a wonderful man, and had a very profound experience where Jesus came to me and I was born again. I love my youngest daughter, who is very faithful in the LDS faith. I believe all who truly come to Christ will be saved. I so appreciate how you've verbalized what I learned in my life. I am grateful for your kindness to Mormons. They were some of the best people I knew.
I am so grateful for your willingness to share your perspective and helping us to learn how to interact with with others respectfully when we when we have different beliefs.
Listen to learn and understand.
Thank-you so very much
Honestly you should read the book of mormon I have been in out and in of the church and I didn't think I would come back until I read it all
Dear Pastor, Thank you for the time that you are spending to better understand the teachings and beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We totally agree with you that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is a gift from Him and that salvation and resurrection are given without the requirement of the covenant of baptism. Baptism, as we believe, is a covenant that is required to enter into the highest degree of heaven (the Celestial Kingdom). All of the covenants made and ordinances performed in the temple are done for our preparation to enter into that Kingdom. You have previously discussed our beliefs in the three degrees of glory (Telestial, Terrestrial & Celestial). We belief that all of the Kingdoms of Heaven are a blessing and gift from a loving Heavenly Father who wants our happiness. This beautiful doctrine brings together two teachings in perfect harmony..."Faith without works is dead" and "Saved by Grace". We are all saved by the Grace of Jesus Christ.
Thank you for your insight. First, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints. I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this matter. As someone who was raised near a Baptist church we were often criticized heavily for Baptisms for the Dead among many other issues. Saying we were a cult without a word of discussion was often a daily occurrence. I appreciate your willingness to understand what we believe even if you don't agree with it. On this topic:As you know, even most Christian faiths acknowledge that baptisms for the dead occurred during the time of the Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 15:29). Some Evangelicals frown upon this event, saying that it was done incorrectly, and believe that an unbeliever who dies simply will not go to Heaven. However, even thinking about how this could be shakes my foundation in Christianity. One of my core beliefs in God is that he is just. Other Christian faiths believe this as well, saying that he is perfectly righteous in his treatment of his creatures - that he is consistent, virtuous, and right. Not everyone receives the gospel of Jesus Christ in their lifetime. The thought of someone not even having the opportunity to live with God, in my opinion does not feel right or just. In Psalm 11:7 it says that the "Lord is righteous, he loves justice; the upright will see his face”. I've heard some Evangelicals who list this verse as exclusionary. My interpretation of it is more inclusive.
This channel is great! You are doing a fantastic job!! Thank you!
How much of the world has never even heard of Christ? Doesn’t it just make sense that they would have the opportunity to embrace Christ as their Lord and Savior before judgement.
@11:05 Pastor Jeff: The things we do are signs to God that we believe. They are a token of our faith. That’s why we do them. I am interested in what you think of the “8 souls saved by water” phrase. But even so, we do baptism for the dead because it is symbolic of the atonement. That in becoming “new creatures” in Christ we would do the works of Christ, and so baptism is a form of Levitical atonement. It is something we are asked to do because it helps us remember His sacrifice. We become exalted in our character when these things are done in truth.
Remember that:
•Salvation refers to a resurrection, the salvation of the body, and being given an immortal life.
•Exaltation refers to the CHARACTER one has when they are resurrected. A person who is exalted will live by all the laws that proceed forth out of the mouth of God by choice. They are they who WANT to live all and not just some of God’s laws.
Therefore, everyone will receive a degree of heaven due to the grace of Christ. There are some few who will not be saved that we call “sons of perdition” and Cain is one of them. Jesus is the judge of who receives heaven in part or full. That’s what is meant by the three degrees of glory.
Hey, thanks for making this video. I'll be watching the rest of them.
I have been loving the insight you share. Really has helped me examine my own faith. Thank you!
“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”. John 3:5 It seems pretty straightforward. Keep the videos coming, they are very thoughtful and I love hearing your perspective.
Water and spirit is referring to living water as Ezekiel prophesied. It’s not referring to baptism. Living water is from the Holy Spirit
@@maxstooksberry9458 Max - So if I'm understanding you correctly, your view is that when Jesus referred to being born of water, it's more of a spiritual source and not necessarily the water used in baptism?
@@mdaley4390 correct. Because baptism is a work, and works do no part in gaining eternal life. It’s all of what Jesus has done
@@maxstooksberry9458 I didn't quite catch on until this last reply and now I understand. Thanks!
Great Explanations! From what I know the definition of being a Christian is following Christ and following his teachings so the LDS Church would definitely qualify as one of the most christian churches I know because (1) Their church is named after him (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) (2) They believe in the birth, atonement, death and resurrections of Christ like other fellow christians. (3) The same makeup of apostles, prophets, along with Temples exist as in days of old today. (4) So as per an LDS member being a Christian - that would be a very strong case. I don't know why many other Christian sects sometimes don't refer or recognize or call them that. However what differentiates their religion is that the believe in continuing revelation (not just ending in the biblical times, but continuing on now). As per Temples & baptism for the dead, the whole world can receive these ordinances (not just of one sect). Being just, non-inclusionary and fair - it really makes it a one world religion in a sense. So I believe God is a God of more, not less and a don't think he would leave anyone out! So as per that principal (Baptisms for the dead) it seems to follow good principals.=. Okay enough said - but thanks for your great video!
How would you interpret Matthew 7:14, when Jesus says the way is narrow and only a few find it?
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ, I love your videos, Jeff! Your devotion to our Savior Jesus Christ and your sincere desire to follow in His footsteps are evident by the respectful approach you take when comparing different understandings and doctrines among other Christian faiths. Thanks for your beautiful example. God bless you in your efforts. 😊
@LucianaFerreiraHervey Thanks ... lets follow together!
@3:52 Baptism for the Dead purpose is an act similar to the Levites offering atonement for Israel back in Moses’ day. We do it to show our faith and hope and charity. It’s a sign to God that we believe Him and don’t just ‘say Lord, Lord’. So just as Jesus was proxy for us, we show our belief in Him by being proxy for others. (See Obadiah 1:21 - saviours shall come up on mount Zion)
In 1 Corinthians 15: 29 It says:
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
It would be interesting to hear your take on this. As I am sure you know, this was in a chapter trying to teach the people of Corinth about the resurrection. The most interesting thing to me is that the way Paul was talking about it was in a way that made it seem like it was a common practice at the time. It sounds like he was saying, “why are we doing this baptism for the dead thing if it doesn’t make sense to do it?”
I am really curious about this one because I don’t understand how it could be interpreted to be anything other than baptisms for the dead was a thing since Jesus’ time. Unless I guess the same, “it’s good, but not necessary” answer as regular baptism. But even then, if it wasn’t necessary for salvation (for you or the dead), why bring it up in the first place?
I hope this reaches you; I see that you search through old video comments every now and again.
Great video. The example of how you teach your congregation about what baptism should mean to the person being baptized - born again, showing faith in Christ publicly, etc. I like how you lay out the differences without trying to condemn or belittle one over another. People who have found and accepted Christ in their lives and chose to strive to live according to His teachings have so much in common. I like how you point out those common things before identifying what some differences are.
You are absolutely amazing!! Thank you so much for your diligent research. I love your videos!
I find these videos super, super helpful. I subscribed and share these videos with my friends as a model on how to be genuinely interested and respectful in learning and appreciating similarities and differences among religions. Well done!
I do wish the Mormon video (and this Pastor's commentary) would have addressed 1 Corinthians 15:29 when speaking of the early Christian practice of baptism for the dead in relation to the resurrection. I am interested in his thoughts on that.
How much does it cost to do baptism for the dead ?
@@emmanueloshaddai3259
The only price is obedience to the Lord's commandments. Other than that, come buy milk and honey, without money and without price.
@@tbarron1631 I was told you have to pay tithes to get baptised. But maybe I'm just misinformed.
@@emmanueloshaddai3259 in order to hold a temple recommend which is required to enter into a dedicated temple (not during an open house), one has to indicate that they obey the law of Tithing, law of Chastity, what we call the Word of Wisdom - no alcohol, illegal drugs, coffee, tea or cigarettes; and answer a few more worthiness related questions in the affirmative.
In order to be deemed worthy of baptism as a living person, one basically commits to keep these same laws. The questions for a baptismal interview are of the "will you" nature, and and of the "do you" nature to enter the temple.
@@VRGuy286 Sounds like a reasonable way to increase the chances that people of good character are the ones doing the recommends.
Does it not still feel like a mechanism for people of a preferable character to alter the eternal fate of people who out of their own free will did not want to be part of that group?
One thing I would clarify a little, and I know you said in your video that there were some differences in Christianity. When my nephew passed away at just under 1 years old, the evangelical protestant minister that I was meeting with let me know that because the child was not baptized he would go to hell. He said that the child didn't have faith in Christ and wasn't able to be saved. That didn't jive with me. It didn't line up with the God I understood that was merciful and graceful. Now certainly I am sure there are some Christians that believe similar to Mormons that those children won't end up in hell. And whether it be through the grace of God, or through baptism for the dead - I think we all can agree that God wouldn't send to hell those who are innocent.
This is why my great grandmother in England was first interested in the LDS faith her brother had died at only a few days old and her mom was told by a priest the boy would go to hell if he wasn't basically emergency baptized. She refused to believe it and so the damnation on non-baptized individuals and infant baptism were always a big issue in the family.
@ zackwagner01 - I am so sorry for the loss of your nephew. My niece passed away at 2 years old a few years back. I am a Christian (non-LDS) and I want to assure you we believe my niece (and your nephew) is in Heaven. The Bible does contain verses about the innocents. We’ve also had friends who have miscarried and both we and the pastor believes those babies are in Heaven. So, the I can assure you the pastor you are referring to and the comments he made do not represent the Protestant Christian view.
@ zackwagner01- Also, that pastor’s comments on baptism are very strange. We believe one is saved when they place their faith in Jesus and make Him lord of their lives. After that, they choose to be baptized as a public declaration of their faith in Jesus.
@@gtf5392 He said because the child didn't ever accept Jesus, the same way we can he needed baptism. It's interesting that even within the Christian circles that there are differences of belief on certain things. I don't know if that makes once person wrong and one person right. Or one person ending up in hell and the other in heaven. I think things will work out in the end the way they should.
That child is NOT in hell!
Great video. I love learning new things about other cultures and religions and it was nice to see your reaction to some of those things you were learning. I love your phrase that "Baptism is a physical representation of a spiritual reality." I often say that rituals (we call them ordinances) are a physical expression of things spiritual.
Re: Teaching spirits of the deceased - in 1 Peter we find some hints of this. When we die our spirits separate from our bodies; but judgement does not immediately occur. Our spirits still dwell here on earth; but as spirits we call it the Spirit World. They interact with other spirits who have also passed on before them. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20) And also "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6) There is also a scripture in 1 Corinthians where Paul makes a comment about something because the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection. "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Corinthians 15:29) This was a comment, not about baptism for the dead; but about the fact that we are indeed resurrected. His comment infers that baptism for the dead was an obvious practice and here it is used as an argument for the resurrection, otherwise why baptism for the dead be performed? The Sadducees must have believed in baptism for the dead. The dead sea scrolls also mention baptism for the dead. I think we are very closely aligned with each other on what baptism is for. And yes, the water does not really do anything; but it is very symbolic, and if we move away from that symbolism then it loses its meaning and power. We understand salvation differently. All will be resurrected (one aspect of salvation). All have the opportunity to repent of their sins and be forgiven (a different aspect of salvation). One need not be baptized for salvation (resurrection); but one does need to be baptized to show we are willing to follow him.
Love your quest. Keep going! -Gabe (Member of this church)
We do believe that in a way death is final and even the book of mormon is clear on that. But there is a lot of nuance here. Part of our theology is the acceptance that God will judge us according to our knowledge, that means that each individual will be judged by how they grew, what they knew to be right or wrong and which commitments to God they had done in their life, this aligns with the idea of the 3 degrees of glory in the sense that the kind of law people chose to live in life, so will they be recompensed.
But there is a conundrum. If Jesus said that baptism is necessary for salvation (He who is born of water and the spirit). Peter said that Jesus preached to the incarcerated spirits (1 Peter 3 and 4), which preaching implies some degree of choice. Choice after death is part of our beliefs, but so is the idea that some things can only be performed in life. When you join John 3:5, 1 Peter 3 and 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 as well as the parable of the rich man, you get the idea that choice after death is a complicated problem, not so easily a black and white one.
There isn't complete consensus in the church as to which degree there is choice after death and to which there isn't. What we do know is that God will be the judge in everyone's life to know how much post-mortem choice and growth they can have and how much they can't. Ultimately God wants all his children to have the opportunity to go to him, and if they were born Hindu and died Hindu and never met Jesus, they would then be preached to and have a chance to accept a proxy baptism.
I figure the call for choice would be different to someone that knew about Christianity, was preached to many times in life and always rejected the idea of changing their life, and thus chose never to get baptized. But ultimately God makes that call, not us, and we always give the benefit of the doubt. A lot of this nuance and fine print is within the definition of D&C 76. But the general principle is God is a righteous judge, and nobody will receive an unrighteous judgement.
Great video, Pastor. What in your opinion happens to those who’ve never had an opportunity to learn about Christ and accept His Gospel?
@1830 S Thank you for watching!
As far as those who have never had the opportunity to learn about Christ and accept his Gospel, most in my protestant circles hold to two principles:
1. The New Testament makes only commands Christ's disciples to go into the world and make disciples and to love those around us. There's nothing that speaks to our responsibility to reach those who are deceased. This leads to the second principal:
2. God is perfectly righteous, perfectly just and perfectly good. This means we can 100% trust all souls in his hands because in his righteous, just goodness, he will never invite anyone into his eternal presence who isn't supposed to be there and he will never prohibit someone from his presence who isn't supposed to be there.
@@HelloSaints thank you for your answer 🙂
@@HelloSaints but, I've heard people who say they are Christian...born again, evangelical specifically say that in order to go to heaven in eternal life that a person ,while living on earth, has to proclaim their faith in Jesus Christ and be baptized. So, while I get in part what your saying, what about people who lived prior to Jesus Christ and people living now who may or may not have heard his name, but obviously weren't taught enough to know Jesus and accept him as their Savior...or even those who seem to have lose their faith in God/Jesus after going through life's trials, yet remain good people..then do they get to heaven simply because Jesus died for everyone. This is my belief. I was raised Catholic, but have been LDS for almost 30 years. This is what I love about LDS Temple work...that the living proxy for the dead, but the dead have the opportunity to accept this work or reject it. Therefore, giving them an opportunity to rejoice in Jesus Christ. Whereas, I think too many Christians take literally the Bible. I take it more openly that Jesus opens the door to heaven to all whether or not they actually "accepted Jesus personally before taking their last breath on earth". It's also one of the reasons why I remain LDS. Some others weekly partaking of the sacraments, also priesthood blessings. These are called sacraments in the Catholic church. However, in many other Christian churches, who often reject Catholics and LDS (Mormons) as Christians don't offer their believers, yet they were set up,and performed by Jesus Christ.
@@HelloSaints thank you for that answer.Big help
@@HelloSaints To the first point, we would respectfully disagree, The very existence of Baptism for the dead is evidence that we have a 'responsibility' to reach those who are dead: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Corinthians 15: 29). Context: Paul uses the ordinance to prove that there is in fact a resurrection. Yes, I know we will not agree on the interpretation of that verse. That`s ok, just sharing our paradigm. There is a great book regarding the early Christian belief (by some not all) that the dead could be saved. See
the Non-LDS author Jeffery Trumbower in his book titled Rescue for the Dead: The Posthumous Salvation of Non-Christians in Early Christianity. ‘Early Christians did believe that the dead could be saved’ -(Trumbower, J. A. (2001). Rescue for the Dead: The Posthumous Salvation of Non-Christians in Early Christianity (Oxford Studies in Historical Theology) (1st ed.). Oxford University Press.). Additionally, The Prophet Malachi records, “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.” (Malachi 4: 5-6). Which we interpret to speak of the requirement of both the ministry to the living and the dead. There are other verses which make this point, but in short we do believe there is a call to reach out to our dead. To the second point, you seem to either be saying that 'all those souls will be damned and it`s just because God is just,' Or you are saying there are two ways to enter the gate... To the first, I could never agree that justice could be fulfilled in that way (justice demands equal opportunity) and thankfully my belief does have Biblical support. And to the second, Jesus was quite clear that He is the way (John 14: 6). There is no other way given for man to live with God than the path which Christ gave us to follow. I do sincerely hope you are interested in trying to understand our faith; but that does require knowing why we believe what we do.
As a lds, I give you respect my friend..hearing others beliefs is why God sent us here, it helps me with understanding what's right and what's wrong in its simplest form..its amazing
What an incredibly cool video you have produced. This is the faith of my youth and the faith of my eternities.
I love how you connect the dots between the two Christian faiths. Some thing that is not easily done.
We can all be wonderful friends even though we have different faiths.
I grew up in Utah. I love that state. I really love living in the south!!
Living next to people like you. Who are open and curious about anything that’s virtuous and lovely and praiseworthy and of gonna report.
We as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints seek after these things.
1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will THEY do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are THEY baptized on behalf of the dead?”
We do know by comparing it with the rest of Scripture that it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by someone else being baptized on his or her behalf, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4). The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the surety of the resurrection, not about baptism for the dead.
The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died-and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses "THEY," not "we"). Paul certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place?
The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural nor sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn’t change a person’s eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Please read your Bible.
Nothing is more important than where you spend eternity.
Ok, much context needs to be given for the LDS paradigm as it was not present in this video. Firstly, it needs to be pointed out that 'Mormons' believe Baptism is not simply 'a celebration' for being saved, it is for the purpose of remission of sins; which is necessary: "…be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" Acts 2: 38. "John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4). "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" (Luke 3: 3). See also (Luke 24: 46-47). Secondly, Baptism is required as part of the redemption path which Jesus gave: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16: 16), (see also John 3: 1-5, et al). This being the case, we believe that everything Jesus taught is necessary for those to whom He is their Lord (see Luke 6: 46). Thirdly, we are dealing with an incredibly large issue: 'What happens to those who die, who have not heard of or accepted Jesus?' This is the VAST majority of the human family (hundreds of billions of people). This was the primary reason why I converted to the LDS faith from being a Baptist. I do not see anyway that God could be just and merciful without His Gospel being offered to every soul which has walked this earth. How could I love that god that did`nt or wouldn`t? Fourthly, regarding the use of the parable about Lazarus and the rich man, there is a reason why it was speaking of Abraham rather than God in this parable; before Christ’s death, spirits from paradise could not visit those who were in spirit prison/Hell. His ministry in the spirit world bridged the gulf between paradise and the spirit prison, making it possible for the spirits in prison to receive the message of the gospel sent from paradise (see John 5:25-29; 1 Peter 3:18-21; 4:6) (Note: Jesus did not ascend unto the Father until the third day (see John 20: 17) because He was in the world of Spirits proclaiming the Good News (as stated in 1 Peter)). This is why we do not see work for the dead until Christ accomplished His work. Furthermore, Paul utilizes the practice of vicarious Baptism (part of that Gospel message) to prove the resurrection by saying, “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Corinthians 15: 29).
Thank you for beautifully explaining the Believers baptism doctrine. Yes, Jesus is the final judge for where we spend eternity. I didn’t catch where we disagreed on that principle. Proxy work for the deceased doesn’t earn me more grace. If I may, I’d like to share a recent Family History trip I took to South India in a former Portugese colony to find baptismal records of the first convert to Christianity in my ancestry. From Going in search for my roots the Lord taught me many lessons through my father’s and his father’s eyes. For example, I learned that many of the talents I have came from them. The stories I collected and Picture albums brought me to tears. I am sure you’ve had similar experiences going in search of your ancestry
I am 7th generation of a family who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The first generation was baptized in a river in Michigan. My grandfather was baptized at the age of 9 in a bend of a creek in southern Utah. My father was raised in Cardston Alberta Canada. Shortly after the Cardston temple was completed the youth who were worthy for baptism after their 8th birthday were able to use the baptismal font in the Cardston temple to perform their baptism which was preferable when Lee’s Creek ( the only open water source in the community) was either frozen over or was deep enough from cold spring runoff to try to be totally immersed. Fortunately for me, the more modern chapel in Calgary Alberta where I was raised had a baptismal font that was temperature controlled with a room open to it so my family could watch while I received my baptismal ordinance performed with my father officiating.
Years later I served as a Missionary in Italy where the church had only recently been given status. Our meeting places were often rented apartments. I was even allowed to perform baptisms in Aegean sea by Taranto in the heal of the Italian boot.
I am so glad to see more Christians treating LDS as a human faith rather than demonic. I'm more open to questions and insights instead of accusations and assumptions/judgements. Subscribing now. I hope you keep this up thank you for caring. And I want to see some reactions to Saints Unscripted Faith and Beliefs sometime. They go into the disagreements and misunderstandings well and I appreciate their work and information. There may be some biased endings of sorts like I've heard the ending of some of their videos where they make it like logically there may not be other reasons to not believe but they occur most often in the church history based videos.
I think when you say "most Christians" you are actually meaning, "most American Christians". In both Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox two of the largest denominations, it is just as important. Even in "high church" Protestantism such as Lutherism, which is admittedly more common in Europe and Asia, Baptism is seen as a requirement. While your comments seem accurate for the United States, Christianity worldwide is far less of a monolith than your comments would seem to suggest. For instance the Church of Denmark, which is a state sponsored religion who recognizes the monarch as both head of church and state, requires baptism before one can partake of communion, and they consider themselves Protestants.
American Christianity is not the only way it is practiced throughout the world. Just something of which to be aware.
@Brett Majeske... Fascinating. Thanks for commenting. Follow up question: Does the Church of Denmark's requirement of baptism before communion mean that someone who is not baptized is not saved?
@@HelloSaints I dislike answering on behalf of other religions, since theology can get rather convoluted. My understanding is that officially they follow the same conservative understanding shared with Lutheranism, Catholicism, and Orthodox that baptism is a requirement. Conversations with different priests suggests to me that unofficially there is more nuance. They seem to accept that other churches baptisms are valid for salvation, but if one wants a church wedding, both must be baptized in the Church of Denmark.
The whole concept of "limbo" was created as a way to explain what would happen to the innocent unbaptized. It is a non-Biblical belief that is still rather common accepted in many European countries.
My understanding is that both the Catholic Church and Orthodox accept any baptism, not just their own, would fulfil this requirement. Although it was not until the 1960s when such liberal acceptance became common. I attended a Catholic school growing up, and the nuns certainly expressed the idea that unbaptized could not go to Heaven.
I have had conversations with members of all three religions that basically devolve into, "God can do whatever he wants." which I certainly agree with, but from my reading of the various dogmas it seems to me that the base assumption for the majority of Christianity up until 200 years ago, was that Baptism.
One of the reasons the Huguenots were so hated in France was because they didn't believe that any sacrament was essential. Both the Catholic and Lutheran attacks against them forced them to flee to the Americas just to survive. In French trials of the time other Protestant groups denied that the Huguenots were even Christian. I know modern history blames the Catholic Church for the Huguenot discrimination, but other Protestants were almost as bad.
If you look into the Amish and Mennonite immigration to the Americas, they experienced simular persecution for their Anabaptist views.
I do not think modern Americans realize to what degree the American traditions of Christianity arise from Old World persecution.
A Danish sociologist friend of mine thinks one of the reasons religion in Europe is declining so rapidly is that it tends to be harsher than in America.
That’s a good point and makes me curious if the belief that baptism is not a requirement for salvation is unique to American Protestantism. While in Brazil I talked with many evangelical Christians and none of them seemed to disagree about the necessity of baptism for salvation. Given that these were people off the street and not trained ministers, so I can’t speak for their religion as a whole.
Our Lord chose Apostles, instructed them. founded His Church, the Roman Catholic Church, on Peter as its head on earth (Matt 16:18-19), sent them to baptize and teach all nations to observe ALL that He has commanded, and promised to be with them until the end of ages (Matt 28:20), so that they may believe in Him through their words (John 17:20) and thus may have eternal life (John 3:16).
Our Lord said, "Whoever listens to you, listens to Me. Whoever rejects you, rejects Me and rejects the One who sent Me (Luke 10:16; John 13:20; Matt 10:40)," and "He that believes shall be saved and he that believes not shall be condemned (Mark 16: 15-16)." Whoever rejects Me and does not accept My Words has something to judge him; the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day (John 12:48). If anyone loves Me, he will keep My words (John 14:15,21,23), he that loves Me not, keeps not My words (John 14:24). Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life in you (John 6:53)."
Protestant churches reject Our Lord by rejecting teachings of His Church whom He heads and saves (Eph 5:23). People following protestant churches do not realize that they are following wolves in sheep's clothing and, thereby, walking on the broad way to perdition. They say, "Lord, Lord", with insincere hearts and hypocrisy, to deceive unsuspecting souls, but, at judgement, will hear "I never knew you, depart from Me, you evil doers (Matt 7:23)." Whoever revolts and continues not in the doctrine of Christ has not God (2 John 1:9). Our Lord desires to save you, sheep that do not belong to His Sheepfold, and said "Them also I MUST bring, so that they will hear My Voice and there will be One Fold and One Shepherd (John 10:16)." Please don't be a fool and so gullible. Open your eyes, brothers and sisters, and understand the Truth; and save yourselves by returning to His Church where He is present always (Matt 28:20) and awaits you with open arms like the father of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32)! As we are now living through the tribulations in the end times, time is urgent!
@@hyeminkwun9523 Well, since I am not a Protestant, I am not sure why you posted this as a response to my OP.
Your videos have been recommended to me for a while and I enjoy them. I would recommend to you to check out an LDS scholar well versed in LDS theology as well as traditional biblical teaching. His name is Jared Halverson. He just did an excellent hour long video on the book of Esther on his "Unshaken" UA-cam channel. Research his history as well. He studied at Bible colleges back east, in Nashville, Tennessee. It may help you understand the LDS beliefs and faith even more.
I second this! Jared is a wealth of information and has had a lot of inter-faith discussions and such 👍
I have really enjoyed watching your videos, I think it's SO important today that Christians of all denominations show respect for each other, and maybe even more importantly, Christlike love. You do that and I think it's amazing that we can discuss differences in such a positive way.
Of all your videos that I've watched, this is the first one that has made me curious of something you taught about your particular denomination, and I'd love it if you could clarify one thing for me. You said that after this life there is not more choices and we are judged finally from our earth life. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and one of the reasons that I find peace in the doctrine of continual learning choices after this life is because this world is so unfair. I've always felt that having more time with an eternal perspective brings more equality to man who has lived in that unfair world.
So with that background, here is my question for you. I like your explanation of why you don't view baptism as essential, but what about people who have not had the opportunity to learn about Christ and accept him as their Savior in this life? Even more important to me, what about small children who never grew old enough to understand good/bad choices, and most important of all, to me personally, what about people who lived a bad life but didn't know better? A man who was abused all his childhood, for example, and grew up not knowing better, perhaps in dangerous circumstances... or someone who did wrong things, such as killing, to protect and save family and lived his/her whole life with cruelty because they thought it was the only way to protect family, but without having an opportunity to learn of Christ and repent in this life?
I believe God is perfect in both justice and mercy, both made possible through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and I think we agree on that. I'd really like to know where you see that mercy come in if this life is all we have.
Thanks again for these wonderful videos that open so much uplifting dialogue! I hope you read my message and I can learn further from you as we build understanding of faith together.
Thank you for a thoughtful and fair review of this topic.
Thank you Pastor Jeff! I live in Cincinnati and have several co workers and neighbors who are evangelical Christians, so I am truly enjoying these videos. I’d be curious to get your perspective on 1 Corinthians 15:29 where it refers to the practice in that time of being “baptized for the dead.” Thanks again!
1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will THEY do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are THEY baptized on behalf of the dead?”
We do know by comparing it with the rest of Scripture that it does not mean that a dead person can be saved by someone else being baptized on his or her behalf, because baptism is not a requirement for salvation in the first place (Ephesians 2:8; Romans 3:28; 4:3; 6:3-4). The entire passage (vv. 12-29) is about the surety of the resurrection, not about baptism for the dead.
The plain meaning of the Greek in verse 29 is that some people are being baptized on behalf of those who have died-and if there is no resurrection, why are they doing this? Paul is referring to a pagan custom (notice he uses "THEY," not "we"). Paul certainly does not approve of the practice; he merely says that if there is no resurrection, why would the custom take place?
The Mormon practice of baptism for the dead is neither scriptural nor sensible. Baptism for the dead is a practice that was common in the pagan religions of Greece and is still practiced today by some cults; but it doesn’t change a person’s eternal destiny, for that is determined while he lives (Luke 16:26).
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Everybody will be resurrected regardless.
@@ieamkb Agreed. Women do not need to be married to be resurrected. Christ has already told us that no one will be married in heaven, no 'eternal' families, no one is separated on different planets and no one is separated on different 'levels of heaven.'
Revelation 21 and 22.
And of course Latter day Saints will not have the ability to resurrect their wives. They are only men.
Only God the Father and Jesus Christ can resurrect the dead.
The LDS Church is still teaching that the husband will call the wife from the grave. However, there is no such teaching in the Bible. Jesus is quoted in the book of John as saying:
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. (John 5:21 ESV)
Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. (John 5:25 ESV)
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:40 ESV)
I Thessalonians 4
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
We can’t save ourselves But we earn the level we receive when we arrive. Those who don’t care of work to attains a higher spiritually would not feel comfortable living on that level. It’s our choice how and where we ascend to in Eternity.
This channel is a gift. Thank you.
Thank you for researching all these topics with an open mind! Keep it up. (I’m a Latter-day Saint)
The Scriptures teach clearly that to inherit the kingdom of God, a person must be baptized:
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5
Obviously, it’d be unjust to condemn those who never had an opportunity to learn and to accept the Gospel of Christ. Hence baptisms for the dead.
I had the same thoughts. It is also stated in Mark 6:16. I was rather surprised when he said we didnt baptism to be saved
@@evaj558 grateful for the restoration and prophetic guidance 😃
You are awesome
@Eric Smyth Nuh uh, you're awesome.
I am Impressed with your videos. You are fair and balanced. I am a convert to the LDS Church of 46 years. I was a Baptist before my conversion. I would love to give you a tour of an LDS meetinghouse, if you lived close to me.
Really appreciate the respectful conversation and the back and forth on the teachings and concepts of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Even if you don't fully agree your perspective and comments show a very respectful conversation that more of us should be able to do.
I haven't finished the video yet but wanted to pause and say that it is refreshing to hear a video from a pastor of another faith wanting to genuinely learn and understand even if they do not agree or believe what we believe. Thank you for being civil and open to discussing ideas of faith even if different from your own. We love our friends of other faiths who are genuinely trying to be better and hopefully all following Christ to the best of their ability. God bless!
What you aren't grasping is that the Luke 16 parable concerning the rich man and Lazarus relates conditions in Sheol ( the realm of departed spirits ) BEFORE Jesus Christ died and went there himself. Jesus bridged that gap between Abraham's bosom ( Paradise ) and the Hell we call the Spirit Prison.
Jesus made it possible for the spirits in prison to be taught His Gospel allowing them to accept it upon condition of repentance. If they accept Christ's conditions, the Baptism for the dead performed on their behalf will be counted for them.
Except ye be born of the WATER and the SPIRIT ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
See: 1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6
Please please find a temple open house to go to for newly built temples. Love this channel! Love hearing your perspective!
1) There are multiple stages of after life in LDS doctrine. First level is a spiritual prison/spiritual heaven.
1 Peter 3:19
“By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”
By proxy baptism, spirits recieve a chance to go to the spiritual heaven.
After life in spiritual prison/heaven, there will be the day of judgement, that would start our final stage of being. There, we would be redistributed between Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial kingdoms of glory (and there inner levels), or will went to the outer darkness (but still receive eternal life there).
2) How do Christians interpret Paul words:
1 Corinthians 15:29
“Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”
I volunteered to be taught by the missionaries. After the first lesson with them I already made that firm decision to be baptized by those with the proper authority. I lost my brother a few months before meeting the missionaries. When I asked the question about how my brother could join the church. The missionaries helped me understand the significance of the temple and explained to me Baptism by Proxy for the dead. (See 1 Corinthians 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?") Luckily for my brother a dear Uncle acted as proxy for him. Pastor I really appreciate your effort to understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I hope one day you could provide a video after reading the Book of Mormon side by side with the Bible. I will continue to pray and fast for you Brother.God bless you.
Hello Jeff. Jesus taught that we need to be baptized to return to live in God’s presence after this life is over.
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” -John 3:5
As a ladder day Saint myself I am highly impressed by your understanding of reading the Book of Mormon. I can tell you have a great understanding of gospel doctrine being a pastor already. You are a great teacher.
I will be interested in seeing your thoughts about this after reading the Book of Mormon.
Some things are clarified very thoroughly.
5:05 Like the Tabernacle of Moses or the Temple of Solomon, modern LDS Temples hold the presence of God. There's no pillar of cloud or fire, but there are many accounts of people meeting or seeing angels in temples. (As an example, during the Kirtland temple dedication in 1836, people in the neighborhood saw angels congregating on the roof.) We sometimes use the phrase "where Heaven touches Earth." Heaven has touched Earth in other places, of course - generally mountaintops like Sinai - but the temple is a set-apart, dedicated space constructed for the purpose of interacting with Heaven in such a way as to allow the living to stand as proxy for the dead.
6:26 I've come to equate our understanding of the ability to choose after death with the Catholic conception of Purgatory - a space between Death and the Resurrection/Final Judgment where it's not EASY to change, but also not IMPOSSIBLE. We believe that someone who WOULD have accepted the Restored Gospel in this life (given the right circumstances) often will accept it at this point. And then their proxy baptism is available for them to accept as well.
10:55 One way to look at our perception of the interplay between Faith (or Grace) and Works is demonstrated by the way Simon Peter walked on water. Jesus enabled him to do it. He had the faith to do it. But he also had to make good on his faith and use the ability Jesus gave him by physically getting out of the boat, showing his faith "by his works" as James teaches. There's more to this discussion about baptism in particular (What did Jesus mean by needing to get baptized "to fulfill all righteousness"?) but that's a simple explanation.
Talk to missionaries in your local area. They can help you answer your questions. Very helpful. I’m a recent convert and was raised and lived my life as a Christian having had attended many different churches and denominations but once I prayed on if the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, and the Book of Mormon is another true scripture of Jesus Christ and I got that revelation answer from God. And I’m still learning. Now I still hold to my beliefs of the Trinity, We are saved by Grace by Faith alone in Jesus Christ, and not by works, etc. but I’ve just added to my beliefs.
That’s wonderful that you’ve had spiritual experiences. We all are learning. If you don’t mind, could you please clarify what you mean by “hold to my beliefs of the Trinity”?
@@Tova-Barin I believe in God the father who sent his son Jesus is the one and only son who is the second part of the trinity and the Holy Spirit being the third person of the trinity one God and three persons all in the same purpose and simpler terms God the father is Jesus son in the flesh and never Jesus his ascension into heaven after his resurrection he left his Holy Spirit be here to draw with us since he was not physically with us no longer until the second coming until he calls his church his bride to meet him in the clouds during the rapture that’s what I mean by I still believe in the trinity one God and three persons I don’t believe that God Jesus and Holy Spirit are three separate beings that doctor and I don’t believe in but I do agree that they are one and purpose But our one God and three persons equivalent into the Tryon the trinity of one entity
These videos are awesome!
Interesting perspective Jeff, thanks for sharing
I’m a little confused by something you said, and I need to be careful because I’m genuinely trying to see how this works in your mind, and the mind of other Christians. But you said that not choosing to be baptized is a choice, kind of making the Mormons our own saviors, because we make that choice. But doesn’t everyone make that choice. Christians make the choice to believe in Christ. Belief is a choice. Our action of baptism is just a symbolized action, of making that official choice to follow God. Again I need to be careful, but I seriously wonder this about Christians. The perfect relationship between two people, is one where they are independent but choose to be with each other and love each other. But don’t need it. But I see how a lot of believers in God have co dependant relationships with God. And I can see why, because he’s God, and he’s perfect. So it makes sense to depend on a perfect being. But if God loves us, why would he intentionally have us have the worst type of relationship with him.
How I love the LDS religion, and how I see my relationship with God, is that I’m gonna serve God, love, and worship him. Not so that I can gain something from him. But because I love him and I know that I’ll be fine with what ever happens because of what I’ve chosen. And I’ve chosen to follow God. So yes God saves us, but so do we, because this is a relationship with God that we have.
We do not believe baptism saves you. When I dunk someone in the water literally nothing happens. it is the Grace and Power of Christ that makes anything happen. in this case, during baptism we form a covenant with God, that meaning we are submitting ourself to become one with God, since that what a covenant means. we are submitting ourselves wholly to the saving grace of Christ and not our own works. Becoming one heart and one mind with God, though we fall short of the glory and short of this unity in this life, through Christ we will eventually become perfect our will becoming subsumed in his, for a lack of a better way to explain it. All must receive these covenants of God, because receiving these covenants is to accept Christ, to reject them is to deny him. everyone deserves a chance to accept and have faith in Christ.
Proxy ordinances, such as baptism for the dead, might not be unique to our faith, from what I have heard (though I could be mistaken), some really old German churches still practice it.
Regarding living baptisms in the temple, from what I understand, a long time ago, you used to be able to be baptized for yourself there as well.
Something you might not have picked up on. Every baptism is witnessed and recorded, this is necessary. Filling out paperwork properly in part of it.
We believe the Gospel is preached to the dead because the Bible says it is, specifically so that the dead can "live according to God in the Spirit," that meaning accept Christ and have faith. However, I want to make it clear, this isn't a second chance to respond to the call, for them, it is a first chance.
I also want to point out it is "baptism for the dead" or "vicarious baptism for the dead," not "baptizing the dead" or any other variation of that. it is something performed for not something done too. The prayers for vicarious work say "in behalf of" not "on behalf of" there is a huge difference between the two. "in behalf of" means "for the benefit of" while "on behalf of" means "in place of" or as "an Agent of." For example: a Lawyer can speak on behalf of his client, while a Church can raise money in behalf of hurricane victims.
"Baptism is a physical representation of a spiritual reality" is almost exactly how we describe all the various things we do, though we would use different words.
Like you and Like a said earlier we believe the actual act of baptism does nothing, the water doesn't save you. It is symbolic. If you are under the impression we believe that dunking someone in water and saying magic words suddenly causes something to happen, you are mistaken. We do not believe we are wizards.
The idea that we are saved solely by the grace of Christ and that baptism is required do not conflict. Because baptism is accepting Christ, Baptism does nothing, same with the bread and water, and the temple stuff, and placing your hands on someone's head to give them a blessing. It is the power of God that actually does something here. these are all symbolic actions. that are necessary only in the sense that accepting Christ in necessary and they are how one accepts Christ. If you reject baptism, you reject Christ, you reject God. Like most of Christianity we believe that if one doesn't accept Christ they cannot be saved, however like a lot of Christianity we also believe that we accept Christ through baptism, so therefore everybody needs to be baptized. If you reject the Temple stuff, you reject Christ at least to a certain degree, since all the various ordinances is just us making covenants with God, becoming unified in him. It is how we accept Christ and allow his grace to change us. God isn't going to force anything on you.
Long story short, when learning stuff about the Church, remember these Points: we do not believe we are wizards, we believe in salvation through the grace of Christ and not our own works, We believe the Bible as well. Interpret things through these lens. If what you learn seems to conflict with these notions, then your interpretation of what we believe is probably wrong, and there may be a language barrier causing miscommunications. Do not assume that the Bible clearly demonstrates how we are incorrect, if it was that easy, we wouldn't be where we are, and we wouldn't have absorbed entire congregations and their highly educated religious leaders early on in our history.
I wish you did videos more often! Love them!
Great video! Man I love watching and seeing your reactions to learning new things, If only more people could be like that!!!
Just one thought though, as the LDS video said, what about all those people who never heard about Jesus Christ or knew there was a savior? 6:30. What hope do they have if they die never knowing? Yes when we die, we only take with us who we are or became in this life, but is that it for them? No chance to receive God in their life or act on the call to be reconciled to God how can that be if they die never knowing who he is?
That’s why we put so much emphasis on Temples, so much money in the building of those buildings all over the earth, so their work can be done, here on earth where it can only be done, they are taught the fullness of the gospel on the other side, and as I said in the beginning they take with them only who they are, so having been taught they then choose whether they would except it, if given the opportunity in this life, they reject it, the same would happen on the other side, they won’t accept it there, but at least all sons and daughters of a loving GOD would have a chance, making HIM a true perfect, fair and loving GOD,
God Bless
Thank you, Pastor, for this opportunity to clarify to LDS people about the flaws I found in the LDS doctrine. I have many good friends in that church, wonderful people. I have nothing bad to say about their intentions. I can tell that many truly want to serve the Lord. I believe He has many of His chosen children among of the LDS. I pray everyday that His Holy Spirit goes into more and more hearts and starts a wonderful and tremendous work in them, as He’s done unto me. I am so much happier and peaceful after I let go all the extra requirements that Joseph Smith added without any biblical back up for most of what they do. The peace and mercy of God be with each one of us. God be praised always. Amen.
Can I just say that Joseph Smith did not add extra requirements but that our Lord and Saviour gave us those requirements. Do you really think that Christ, in the 40 days after His resurrection, did not teach his Apostles anything new?
@@l.hansens9060 , read the very end of the book of Mathew. His instructions are very clear. And, yes. I believe His doctrine is all delivered to us in the Bible, about marriage (it ends with death), about the word of wisdom (what defile a man is what comes out of our mouth, and not what goes in…), and much more. Now, read the beginning of the epistle to the Galatians. Even if an angel comes and delivers another gospel that the apostles didn’t, dismiss it. Satan pretend also to be an angel of light. We have to read the Bible and meditate, so we won’t be tricked. I was for many years, but now “I see”. Jesus opened my eyes.
I like your videos, and appreciate the honest questioning that you are doing. One thing that might be helpful is a clarification on our view of salvation. From my readings of the bible and the Book of Mormon I have come to believe that salvation is more of a choice than simply the only alternative to eternal punishment. God created us with agency (the ability to choose) and obviously wants us to choose to come back to him. But unfortunately many people do not want to do this, many people would rather hold onto their sins than live with God as they are more comfortable that way. This is why we believe in multiple kingdoms of heaven, with only those who reject Christ even after having a perfect knowledge of him, going to dwell with Satan.
To connect this to the video, baptism does not really contribute to your salvation, as we believe everyone who ever lived will have sufficient opportunity to accept Christ. Rather, it is us showing to God that we want to follow his higher law and strive to follow the example of his Son, Jesus Christ. This we call a covenant, where we show the desire of our heart to follow God and he promises blessings to us. Similar covenants are performed in the temple along with their accompanying blessings. I hope this comment is helpful and I have tremendous respect for you and what your doing. Also if you are interested in learning more about agency I recommend 2 Nephi chapter 2 in the Book of Mormon, where the prophet Lehi teaches about the garden of Eden and gives further information about what took place there. Sorry for the long comment.
I think it is a great point to say that baptism itself doesn't contribute to salvation but rather it is a covenant. I think it is important to say that we believe that obedience (not perfection or perfect obedience) and covenants are required by God. Just as Jesus said: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." It is also important to note that while we believe the covenant is necessary, we believe what the bible says that obedience is better than sacrifice. If God told us by his prophets that we needed to change something we would.
Also, I think it is important to note that in Mark 16:16 it says: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." if Jesus didn't care if we were baptized then why did he list it as at least helping us to be saved if not required. Do we have faith in Christ if we do not do the things we ask? Can accept grace without faith in his word? Christ saves us not baptism but faith does connect us to the grace that Christ has provided. It is not works that save us but Christ has asked us to do works
In 1st Corinthians 15:29 the Apostle Paul was making a point that Jesus WAS resurrected and paved the way for all of us as we will all be resurrected at some point in our existence. In reference to the Resurrection, Paul asked, “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?” . We are baptized for the dead because it is required of us to be baptized or we cannot enter the Kingdom of God, (King James Bible, John 3:5). Back in Paul's day they were baptizing for the dead, but some of the people did not believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and that's why Paul asked the question, (why are you doing it if the dead don't rise?).
Hi Jeff! Another great vid.
Re: 1 Pet. 2:9, we (LDS) read this as indicating that in the Church of Peter's time, as in the restored Church, worthy but ordinary members in general were ordained to priesthood offices. We strike a balance between the common priesthood of believers and the need for a specific authority and order.
Except that the authority of Saint Peter did not pass to Joseph Smith. Jesus never said the church would need to be restored. He stated the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church which means there would be no need for a restoration. This makes Smith a false prophet obviously since he contradicts Jesus himself.
@@dman7668 under the direction of Jesus Christ, Peter, in company with James and John, conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, and ordained them as apostles in 1829.
As to your misuse of Matt. 16, Jesus doesn't promise that the Church will not fall away, but that the keys of the priesthood could be used to open the gates of hell. Which is one very important use of the keys: to provide saving ordinances to those people who never had the chance to receive them in life.
John foresaw the angel bringing the gospel back to the earth (Rev. 14:7). Why would it need to be preached again if it was still present in its purity from the initial apostolic dispensation?
Much of the NT following the Acts bears record of the encroaching apostasy of the Church.
@@Empisee
There is no mention of a complete apostasy requiring the Church to need to be restored. Jesus states the gates of hell will never prevail against the Church. If it were true that there was a complete apostasy that would necessitate restoring the Church, that would mean Jesus was a liar and a false prophet. Also, Joseph Smith contradicts his own angel Moroni who himself mentions that God remains the same, yet Smith himself states God does change and was once a man who then becomes God. This an example of a person holding two contradictory positions at the same time. One cannot believe the earth is flat and round at the same time. No, when the Bible says the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church that means there would never be a time where the true Church would not exist on earth. If Jesus knew that the Church would need to be restored, why did he waste his time sending out his apostles to establish a Church he knew would just fail and need to be restarted later? Think about it!
@@dman7668 sorry for the delayed response.
The Bible doesn't describe the apostasy in any detail because it wasn't complete until after the Bible was written - after those with apostolic authority had been taken from the earth.
However, in most of the epistles you see indications that it was ongoing even then. Nearly all the epistles represent the apostles' attempts to quell the flames of apostasy licking at the church.
As for Jesus's promise to Peter, that was conditioned upon the church actually building upon the rock - which was not Peter, by the way but himself, Christ, and the revelation of his Divinity. With the loss of the apostles and the authoritative prophetic leadership they provided, many truths were lost, and many falsehoods were introduced to the church, and so it was no longer built upon that Rock.
@@Empisee
Thank you for the response.
The Bible doesn't describe there being a complete apostasy because there simply wasn't one to talk about. When Jesus wrote that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, he said so as a matter of fact. The Church we are told in the Bible is the body of Christ. We the people of the Church being Christ's body therefore means that hell would never prevail against us. So to believe that there was a complete apostasy necessitating the reboot of the Church does not make any logical sense. That's just me spit balling those thoughts in between things at work .
The Bible never mentions that the plan was for God's apostolic authority to end transmission for THOUSANDS of years just to hand it over to Joseph Smith. I understand that's what you believe, but to believe that raises alot of questions about Jesus, and why he bothered even gathering 12 apostles just to fail at establishing his Church here on Earth. If I could make that leap I'd convert and be a Mormon, but I can't. It's a huge mental leap to come to that conclusion for anyone rationally thinking about that idea. Why do you believe Jesus made a Church that he intended to fail and re establish later?
Moving right along, no, when we look at the Bible it's insane to take the position that Jesus is referring to himself as the rock on whom the Church would be built and not Saint Peter. One doesn't have to be a genius to read what happens in that conversation: to paraphrase
Jesus: Who is it that you say that I am?
"you are the Christ" Saint Peter obviously identifies Christ.
Then Peter logically is then identified by Jesus in return. That's obviously what's going on here Michael and to spin it any other way goes against grammatical discourse, your so wrong on that subject.
"You are Peter (rock his is actual name) and upon this rock I shall build my Church. Obviously since Peter's name means rock it would be weird and confusing Mike if we are meant to read that statement and assume Jesus is referring to himself. The discourse of the conversation is obviously about Saint Peter. Not Jesus. To further elaborate why you have wrongly understood what frankly is a very obvious discourse about Saint Peter I will try to elaborate even more.
Matt. 16:18 - also, in quoting “on this rock,” the Scriptures use the Greek construction “tautee tee” which means on “this” rock; on “this same” rock; or on “this very” rock. “Tautee tee” is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”
Matt. 16:18-19 - to further rebut the argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.
No, it's clearly saying the Church will be built on Peter by Jesus the builder.
Matt. 7:24 - Jesus, like the wise man, builds His house on the rock (Peter), not on grain of sand (Simon) so the house will not fall.
Apostolic succession doesn't end at some obscure point just because Smith said it did. We should consider the possibility Smith is wrong. It didn't cease because hell triumphed and needed a reboot Mike. That makes no sense to me or I'd join you in mormonism.
Jeff you said that Christians now believe that baptism is not always necessary to be saved. That must have changed since my childhood. When I was about 15 I read the conversation between Christ and Nicodemas in the New Testament and it struck me that there was millions of people who had lived and died without baptism. I rode my bicycle to my Methodist preacher’s house and asked him what would become of those people. He said they were all going to hell. That was the start of my journey to find a church that offered salvation to all. At 21 I was baptized by one of my friends who is LDS. My old preacher sure thought baptism was necessary. Without it he condemned 90 % of the population of earth. My research has show that the ancient church practiced baptism for the dead up to about 600 ad.
This is really interesting! Thank you for sharing your experience, @slowhypno!
I didn't realize they had practiced baptism for the dead so late. I thought closer to 300's AD when Constantine held the councils of nicea to collect writings and declare the "trinity." That is interesting that they had practiced this for so long, yet it is nearly forgotten by the Christian denominations.