Love your insight. I had a campaign idea that involved a demonic invasion. Now I know how to make the demons interesting, and more align to my stile of DMing.
When it comes to how you want to fix demons I like where you head is at but I feel you shouldn't have them cause effects like you say unless they are insanely powerful named demons. I think a better way to do it is when demons show up the material realm gets a little more like the abyss. the abyss is what shaped demons into what they are so it wouldn't make much sense if they cause effects you can't find in the abyss. maybe where they step the rocks and plants get a little bit spiker or more wicked looking. some of the effects you described seemed more like Proteans from the maelstrom. absolutely do not do the misfiring spell effects as that is what spell resistance is the moment you add that you upset every caster at your table as you completely change the strength of the encounter.
The effects are to drum up the impact of Demons upon the material plane, to hammer home the idea that they are a proper crisis and potential world changing evens. I really like your framing of the material realm becoming more like the abyss. The effects I mentioned are just examples and ideas I've used to success in the past! It's all dependent on what an individual DM would like to convey. And certainly, the impact of having spells misfire is dependent upon circumstances and the player(s) it's happening to. Some players will outright be mad that their spell didn't function as written in *any* circumstances where others will appreciate the narrative that the GM is trying to set up. That's all unique to an individual DM's game and they would know their players better than anyone else. We agree here, but the spectrum of mechanic to flavor and advantage to disadvantage is dependent on the group and for an individual DM to decide! 🙂
@@Wiz_and_Pippy I've had too many dms in the past and it almost always ended up in a massive argument because more likely than not the mechanics you add are just going to skyrocket the CR of the demon. there is also the fact of how the demon came into being in the material plane. if they were summoned reality is going to be constantly trying to force them back to the abyss, if they got to the material plane under their own power I could see them warping reality a bit, if there is an open portal to the abyss yes affect the world in many ways. Just a demon existing should have the affect on magic of players as player character magic is a lot more powerful than npc magic. Another issue is what if a massively powerful creature of order goes to the abyss will the abyss get less chaotic? The biggest thing is the material plane isn't so weak that any strong creature can affect it like that and the weave itself can't be affected unless by 9th level magic. when it comes down to it the effects you are giving to demons are in the high 7th to 9th level magic. Though again I like the idea of demons having more presentation and I like the place you are coming from you just have to be careful when adding mechanics.
One thing that threw me off from the whole devil and demon dynamic at odds with each other because of the law/chaos access is the fact that evil gods of lawful and chaotic alignments would work together and also exist in the same plane and court of the gods. The goblin gods for example. As soon as you get the fiends all collected into the same place with similar goals the line between devils and demons blurs. Like you would look at a Hobgoblin and Bugbear, both fulfill a purpose one lawful one chaotic and have the same goals. Since demons and devils are harder to pin down in there uniqueness, to the players their Identity is lost. Any player that has not read the monsters manual will not be able to tell the difference between a Balor and a Pit Fiend. I found it best to mold fiends after identifiable concepts. like the seven deadly sins. Wrath would cover your concept of a "demon", but breaking free of the two tiers system of demons and devils you can create new monsters around entirely new themes without ever being limited to force your creation into a specific mold. IE my players are currently fighting the forces of Gluttony fat fiends that want to devour everything. they have lawful and chaotic versions, some are trying to make deals with the party and npc's in the world. Others are rampaging engines of destruction set to devour everything in their path. My players that know of the demon and devil divide wont find this strange at all because I linked all these monsters under the same banner. But if I was using. Pit Fiends to make deals and Hezrou or Mariltihs to cause rampant destruction, my more astute players would find that odd as devils and demons would be working together.
This is awesome, thank you for sharing! Sounds like you've thought of this problem and found an excellent solution to thread the needle between demonic and devilish identity
@@Wiz_and_Pippy Yeah because monster Identity is important. The simpler the theme the easier it is for players to understand the concept. Lots of old lore is cool and all but its far too convoluted for most players. If you need to explain something in more than a paragraph with the current monster at hand its probably going to be mostly forgotten by the next session. But then each monster becomes a new pice of the puzzle. Such as think Dragons by color to a noob D&D player. the first dragon they meet is a firebreathing red dragon, easy concept to understand. And then they are thrown off by the poison breathing green dragon, thats when you establish the theme of dragon breath. I actually ran a one shot the other day where a new player was asking if the blue dragon breathed cold....
Something I keep in mind is that just because all they care about death and suffering does not make them STUPID. They are chaotic, not mindless. As intelligent as any devil, but they don't want power. They want YOU, specifically, to suffer agony beyond mortal comprehension. And they know many creative ways to break you. "It's fine. The minute the demon walks through that gate, we blast him with our Divinely blessed crossbow bolt of Abyysalba... wait, hold your fire! That's my daughter! Honey what are you doing here? Why are your eyes glowing? What's that crawling out of your- OH GOD, NO!!!!"
Excellent comment and example, thank you! You reminded me of an experience I once had with an extremely enterprising (and high level) group of players that went on to "adopt" a Tanarukk. I very much did not want them to do that but their plan and powers were too much for me to really deny in the cirumstances without a shitty deus ex machina. So they captured him, but he always messed with them in those kinds of ways and eventually they realized they couldn't reason with him as he only sought their destruction. Good memories 🤣
Love your insight. I had a campaign idea that involved a demonic invasion. Now I know how to make the demons interesting, and more align to my stile of DMing.
Thank you Heck yeah that's awesome! I love demonic invasions as a real end-game crisis!!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, BABY!!!
Skulls for the skull throne! 💀💀💀
When it comes to how you want to fix demons I like where you head is at but I feel you shouldn't have them cause effects like you say unless they are insanely powerful named demons. I think a better way to do it is when demons show up the material realm gets a little more like the abyss. the abyss is what shaped demons into what they are so it wouldn't make much sense if they cause effects you can't find in the abyss. maybe where they step the rocks and plants get a little bit spiker or more wicked looking. some of the effects you described seemed more like Proteans from the maelstrom. absolutely do not do the misfiring spell effects as that is what spell resistance is the moment you add that you upset every caster at your table as you completely change the strength of the encounter.
The effects are to drum up the impact of Demons upon the material plane, to hammer home the idea that they are a proper crisis and potential world changing evens. I really like your framing of the material realm becoming more like the abyss. The effects I mentioned are just examples and ideas I've used to success in the past!
It's all dependent on what an individual DM would like to convey. And certainly, the impact of having spells misfire is dependent upon circumstances and the player(s) it's happening to. Some players will outright be mad that their spell didn't function as written in *any* circumstances where others will appreciate the narrative that the GM is trying to set up. That's all unique to an individual DM's game and they would know their players better than anyone else. We agree here, but the spectrum of mechanic to flavor and advantage to disadvantage is dependent on the group and for an individual DM to decide! 🙂
@@Wiz_and_Pippy I've had too many dms in the past and it almost always ended up in a massive argument because more likely than not the mechanics you add are just going to skyrocket the CR of the demon. there is also the fact of how the demon came into being in the material plane. if they were summoned reality is going to be constantly trying to force them back to the abyss, if they got to the material plane under their own power I could see them warping reality a bit, if there is an open portal to the abyss yes affect the world in many ways. Just a demon existing should have the affect on magic of players as player character magic is a lot more powerful than npc magic. Another issue is what if a massively powerful creature of order goes to the abyss will the abyss get less chaotic? The biggest thing is the material plane isn't so weak that any strong creature can affect it like that and the weave itself can't be affected unless by 9th level magic. when it comes down to it the effects you are giving to demons are in the high 7th to 9th level magic. Though again I like the idea of demons having more presentation and I like the place you are coming from you just have to be careful when adding mechanics.
I didn't know about the lore behind alignment, was fun
Thank you! I'm always trying to sprinkle in some history or knowledge into these videos so I'm glad it is appreciated!
One thing that threw me off from the whole devil and demon dynamic at odds with each other because of the law/chaos access is the fact that evil gods of lawful and chaotic alignments would work together and also exist in the same plane and court of the gods. The goblin gods for example. As soon as you get the fiends all collected into the same place with similar goals the line between devils and demons blurs. Like you would look at a Hobgoblin and Bugbear, both fulfill a purpose one lawful one chaotic and have the same goals. Since demons and devils are harder to pin down in there uniqueness, to the players their Identity is lost. Any player that has not read the monsters manual will not be able to tell the difference between a Balor and a Pit Fiend. I found it best to mold fiends after identifiable concepts. like the seven deadly sins. Wrath would cover your concept of a "demon", but breaking free of the two tiers system of demons and devils you can create new monsters around entirely new themes without ever being limited to force your creation into a specific mold. IE my players are currently fighting the forces of Gluttony fat fiends that want to devour everything. they have lawful and chaotic versions, some are trying to make deals with the party and npc's in the world. Others are rampaging engines of destruction set to devour everything in their path. My players that know of the demon and devil divide wont find this strange at all because I linked all these monsters under the same banner. But if I was using. Pit Fiends to make deals and Hezrou or Mariltihs to cause rampant destruction, my more astute players would find that odd as devils and demons would be working together.
This is awesome, thank you for sharing! Sounds like you've thought of this problem and found an excellent solution to thread the needle between demonic and devilish identity
@@Wiz_and_Pippy Yeah because monster Identity is important. The simpler the theme the easier it is for players to understand the concept. Lots of old lore is cool and all but its far too convoluted for most players. If you need to explain something in more than a paragraph with the current monster at hand its probably going to be mostly forgotten by the next session. But then each monster becomes a new pice of the puzzle. Such as think Dragons by color to a noob D&D player. the first dragon they meet is a firebreathing red dragon, easy concept to understand. And then they are thrown off by the poison breathing green dragon, thats when you establish the theme of dragon breath. I actually ran a one shot the other day where a new player was asking if the blue dragon breathed cold....
@@scetchmonkey007 Shows the new player is paying attention at least!🤣
Something I keep in mind is that just because all they care about death and suffering does not make them STUPID.
They are chaotic, not mindless. As intelligent as any devil, but they don't want power. They want YOU, specifically, to suffer agony beyond mortal comprehension. And they know many creative ways to break you.
"It's fine. The minute the demon walks through that gate, we blast him with our Divinely blessed crossbow bolt of Abyysalba... wait, hold your fire! That's my daughter! Honey what are you doing here? Why are your eyes glowing? What's that crawling out of your- OH GOD, NO!!!!"
Excellent comment and example, thank you! You reminded me of an experience I once had with an extremely enterprising (and high level) group of players that went on to "adopt" a Tanarukk. I very much did not want them to do that but their plan and powers were too much for me to really deny in the cirumstances without a shitty deus ex machina. So they captured him, but he always messed with them in those kinds of ways and eventually they realized they couldn't reason with him as he only sought their destruction. Good memories 🤣