Alright y'all I apologize for fast forwarding past the explanation of how God's die!! I made a short out of that bit and uploaded it at the link below! ua-cam.com/users/shortsrYHwZzUmOcw I appreciate you sounding off that you wanted to see it, more valuable than anything the analytics retention stat can tell me! ❤
Eh, in case you're worrying that some bits might be less interesting than others you can specify the chapters via timecodes, so people can easily fast-forward if they really don't care about something in particular. Anyway, thanks for the upload!
As an artist myself, I can imagine the artists of the game feeling one of two ways about this video: “YES FINALLY SOMEONE IS PUTTING TOGETHER THE PIECES” or “idk man I just thought it looked cool”
I think Mystryl, the goddess of magic preceding Mystra, makes the most sense. She was born of the conflict between Selune and Shar, though was more aligned with Selune, and sacrificed herself to prevent permanent damage to the weave when Karsus was overwhelmed when Mystryl's power overwhelmed him. Her symbol is a 4-pointed star, and she is strong in the weave. We might "feel safe" with the Divine Miasma because she was more aligned with Selune than Shar, and because she sacrificed herself to protect the Weave.
@@vorpal8285 Nothing official as far as I can tell, but I don't think that makes it not Mystryl. With the obvious exception of Mystra, the gods of DnD don't seem to make a habit of flaunting their true appearances, it's possible that Mystryl did possess those features. Four points to the star, four far-reaching limbs, four all-seeing eyes. Plus if nothing else, it makes thematic sense that the key to conquering the Crown of Karsus would reside within the body of the Crown's first victim.
My mind jumped to Mystryl, the first goddess of magic. Before she was killed by karsts, she had the four-pointed star as her symbol, and theirs a clear connection there.
@@quantumofzentrix2748 When has a little thing like mutual contradiction every prevented 2 things from being true in a fantasy setting? Sure this isn't Elder Scrolls but I could see this being the bits that didn't get reborn or something.
So something I’ve noticed about some media is that when they kill a god, often times it is that their name is struck from the annals of history and forgotten. Almost as if knowledge of them post-mortem is like a memetic hazard and it’s just removed from existence.
Yep, that's literally how gods work in most DnD settings (at least the ones set in the Forgotten Realms). Their power and dominance over their "portfolio" is canonically tied to the worship and following that mortals grant them. IIRC, in-lore this was put into effect by Ao, god of gods, during the Time of Troubles.
Vlaakith didnt usurp a god as far as I am aware, but she Usurped Gith and then started having the Gith'yanki worship her as a god to raise her to godhood status. The Gith dont really HAVE gods since they were formerly slaves to the Mind flayers which wouldn't leave much room for worship and the second they got out of that was when the Schism happened and when the first Vlaakith took to power.
Gith was never a god, she was the leader of the revolution. The Githyanki have no gods as they're species is to alien for that, their origins are purely as a slave race to the Ilithids, it's suggested in a previous timeline or whatever they were all humans but it's not confirmed. The closet thing they've ever had to a real god is Vlaakith.
I can’t shake the thought that popped up when you mentioned the fractured jaw. It’s mentioned so often in act 1. At the end of ceremorphosis, the jaw splits open to make space for four large tentacles
Uhh, it's in the Astral plane, it houses Vlaakith's living trophy (Orpheus), it's full of githzerai, and it appears to be an epicenter of psyonic energy. I think you wouldn't be far off to argue that you're looking at "Mother Gith" from 4e, laid to waste in the Astral Plane by Vlaakith. Gith did *die* out there, in the Astral Plane. If Vlaakith found her shattered remains, I would argue that she would be cruel enough to take it as a trophy, and stuff Gith's own son in there for good measure
I’m noticing the video creator and the comments are missing the name of the location: Tu’Narath. Laezel mentions it in the game, calling Vlaakith “God Regent of the six arms of Tu’Narath”.
@@BunnyDonutsTu’Narath is the name of the city in the astral plane where Vlaakith rules. The city is built on the body of another dead god, one with 6 arms which is what Lae’zel is talking about. That’s not the one in BG3 since it is way smaller and there is no city built on it
The god might not even have originated in Realmspace. Many other crystal spheres, each with their own independent pantheons, are accessible through the aether by spelljammer (the nautiloid is one of those). The Forgotten Realms are only one of many settings of 1st/2nd edition and aren't particularly special in relation to the story of the gith and illithids (first appearing in the 1st edition Fiend Folio). Lae'zel knows very little about Faerûn, even mispronouncing it and showing contempt for its self-perceived importance. Evidently although her crèche is within Realmspace, namely in Selûne's Tears, they roam quite widely and the corpse where the dream visitor resides could be from almost anywhere in the multiverse, including a crystal sphere for which no official setting exists.
Depends on the lore, SpellJammers aren't astral jammers the new half assed spell jammer crammed them into being. SpellJammers with actual lore content are vehicles that remain EXCLUSIVELY in the material plane. They travel from one sphere to another through the Phlogiston. So if we're talking about first or second edition lore then we're agreeing SpellJammers don't go into the astral plane. Sorry but this is a huge pet peeve of mine, WoTC WRECKED spelljammer lore just so they'd have an easier time releasing the book. Dead gods from all over are floating in the astral sea of course, you're right on the "it could be a dead god from any setting" but the SpellJamming has NOTHING to do with the Astral sea unless we're going exclusively with the 5e re-written lore. Actually in 2e if an Astral Jammer were to leave it's route early it'd be destroyed, etc; think of it like exiting 40k FTL prematurely, you're screwed. There was a module written around this, I've got all the 2e PoD they'll sale and I've got ALL the D&D PDF's including Dungeons Magazine and Dragons Magazine.
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket I mention spelljammers, crystal spheres etc because in that multiverse setting, each crystal sphere has its own pantheon. Even Ao has no authority outside Realmspace. Some are shared e.g. the Mulhorandi pantheon aren't native to Realmspace and Lolth is also a goddess of drow on Oerth (Greyhawk). But most gods are totally unknown outside their own spheres.
In a spelljammer game I once played, the party was resting in a small spelljammer port built from flotsam using the skeletal bones of a long dead and forgotten god the citizens called Lost To Time as core scaffolding. Forgotten Refuge became a base of operations for the party for quite a few levels until some rumors got back of a lich doing some time travel shenanigans trying to get to the Time of Troubles and replace Mystra by stealing the portfolio of Mystryl when the god of magic falls. Add in the bones of Lost To Time stirring more often than not and the party was curious. Adventures later we stumbled across a final encounter between a Netherese archmage trying to absorb all magic and replace Mystryl to keep the Age of Netherese alive while the lich tried to stop the archmage. The lich succeeded in stopping the archmage, but we stopped the lich from achieving godhood. Back at Forgotten Refuge we were winding down the adventure and a couple players were finishing taking notes. One asked the other to confirm the name of the archmage and the DM just stops midway picking up his books and asks "Is this an ingame conversation you two are having?" "Uhhh.. I guess?" With that he opened his binder and fished out a page from it, getting the group's attention he tells us about the moment the archmage's name is mentioned the entire port shuddered as the dead god stirred. The wizard player from Toril could feel all the arcane energy around him stretch and snap in half, with both halves layering on one another as echoes of each other. Streets collapsed and buildings crushed as flesh knits and grows around the skull. Long story short, the player of the cleric that uttered the name became the new chosen of the Netherese God Of Magic. The DM stopped there saying he needs to make some changes to things and we'll pick up next session in the ruins of Forgotten Refuge. And we never got to play again. Seasonal work got in the way for the DM, then us teens started school, then the DM's wife left him and he just up and moved away. Never heard from him again.
Just unlocked memories of reading one of my 2 "Dragon" magazines with a section about exploring dead gods, the enemies there, and the loot. For high level characters of course.
Garagos was a chaotic and bloodthirsty war god of Netheril who was slain by Tempus. He was a god with multiple arms and a bestial countenance. His holy symbol was multiple arms in a star shape, or a pointed star. That is my guess for this astral corpse.
@@Erier Sort of. Roughly 2,000 years after Tempus beat him, he was left without a home by the Spellplague and had to serve Tempus to keep his divinity. Just like Tiamat having to serve Bane though, Garagos wasn't happy about the situation.
My thought was Amaunator, read up on the Three Faced Sun heresy of the Church of Lathander. It links in Jergal aka Withers. Jergal's imagery is linked to the black swirling void and the Three Faced Sun heresy suggests Amaunator was one along with Jergal and Lathander, Morning, Day, and Night.
One thing that I would start asking is what is the possible "timeline" for the god's death. Remember this place was being used to hold the prison of Orpheus. Vlaakith 1 had him locked up for thousands of years at least.
I wondered how much this skeleton matched the form of the Slayer, and if Bhaal gifted the Slayer’s form to his Bhaalspawn not as something of his own creation, but stolen from a deity that he once knew (or challenged and defeated.)
That nerdy explanation you were going into about the death of Gods would have been great to hear! You have a decent voice and nice avatar, if you like BG3 a lot maybe try more lore type videos for it?
Thank you and thank you for the suggestion. Check my pinned comment, you're not the only one who would've preferred I did not cut that out. Lesson learned!
Given that Orpheus was imprisoned Inside the skeleton, I always assumed it had something to do with the Gith. Maybe Mother Gith, maybe Vlaakith 1? Who knows, but I thought that it Had to be related to the Gith in some way.
The Githyanki having spikey teeth too! Same as the skeleton. I figured the crown looked kinda of like the device before the door to Vlaakith at the Creche, with the red gems in it. I definitely felt like it could be Mother Gith.
@drdino2002 In one of his videos AJ Pickett talked about a dead gith god from when they were enslaved by the illithids. I'm spacing on the name at the moment, but if I'm remembering correctly they were a deity manifested from the perseverance of the gith in the face of ongoing enslavement at the hands of the mindflayers and was killed when during their war of independence. It would be fitting if the first Vlaakith hid Orpheus.
@@byuonesThe entire point of the third game’s story with Lae’zel is that it’s her realizing Vlaakith ISN’T a goddess, and in fact, she just uses a wish spell to kill you if you piss her off. No godly magic. You didn’t pay attention.
@@NoFlyZone31 i did pay attention actually! to, you know, the mechanics of the damn game? where Vlaakith is a fucking cleric option and not, say, a warlock patron like she's supposed to be? go condescend to someone else
Weavemoss and Cavern Creeper can both be found in act 3 within the city of Baldurs Gate. Weavemoss is in a few places, Cavern Creeper I only remember finding 1 under Cazadors palace.
My initial thought was that it was what remained of one of the Spellweavers. Most were killed in the Disjunction, an event predating everything, which should have ascended them, but instead killed all. Only one of those who was to ascend survived, and you do bring him up: Jergal.
I see many people parroting each other and saying it's Mother Gith but it can't possibly be her. Mother Gith is in the Nine Hells with Tiamat. Also, she wasn't an actual god, her corpse wouldn't be in the Astral Plane.
heard somewhere on YT a theory that this is an original god of absolute, that was infected with Illithid tadpole, thus the size of the elder brain. that would actually make alot of sense from the skeleton perspective, as back of his skull is broken like something got out of it, his jaw is split to made space for tentacles, and his potential power having to do with "safety" which absolute technically uses as lure for new cultists
Elder brains are all roughly the same size as the Absolute was (in its first scene). Its later, bigger, size was due to netherese magic, not due to its origins. It's probably just another ulitharid, just like the rest of them.
It is hard for tadpoles to transform creatures past a certain size. It takes a lot of work psionically for a dragon to survive the transformation for example.
My first thought when I saw the eye figure in the disc was neverwinter nights. And I dunno either, I personally couldn't find any links per se but there could be!
I love the Jergal as a Spellweaver idea. Even ran a whole campaign focused on that idea. Spellweavers just have such interesting lore, and it's a real shame 5e never ported them.
I love the weavers quite a lot. I was hoping eve of ruin would explore them and the whole Vecna stealing the obelisk stuff. But I have not had the gumption to get into it and I didn't see a single good word said about it so I have no idea if it does atm.
I just assumed it was myrkul from Neverwinter nights 2 and the book in bg3 about myrkuls wall of the faithless from Neverwinter nights 2 just made me think that even more.
Couldn't be her, she is most likely in the Nine Hells. And if she wasn't I can't see how she became a god that big and died in the short time between her being sent to the hells and the prism being created.
In my head cannon, it's Mother Gith who ascended to godhood and who was killed as part of the trade that the first Vlakith made with Tiamat. Tiamat gained the divine essence for whatever machinations she had going and the Vlakith got the Astral Prism containing Mother Gith's corpse which was used to imprison Orpheus (ironically with the residual energy of his mother which arguably makes the prison extremely strong due to the close familial bond between them).
Arguably, the Red Dragon's arrival and pronouncement of Mother Gith's death/Vlakith's ascension to the throne may have been what weakened her to the extent that Tiamat could actually kill her.
AJ Pickett's videos say that most of the god corpses in the astral plane died in The Dawn War, the war between gods and demons at the beginning of time. As for my own input, the multiple arms and vague aesthetic of the various adornments remind me of the Hindu gods, who have been notably absent form D&D canon for several editions, and are also notable for spending a lot of time fighting demons in real world Hindu lore. The divine bone shard making the PC "feel safe" may point to Vishnu, god of protection and preservation (the blue guy).
That seems a tad Oversimplified that it’s a Hindu deva Cause it has four arms… I think it’s probably some prehuman god irrelevant to the mortal civilizations of the current age.
really cool video! this is one of my favourite set pieces/levels in the whole game. seeing it for the first time was truly awe-inspiring and i am similarly awed by it every time i replay the game. i agree that this isn't any god in particular. i think the intention (from larian's side) is to give a sense of worlds and histories unfolding beyond your (the player character's) ability to conceive of or reckon with. to me it encapsulates both how small you are as just one little gang of miscreants out to save (or end) the world, and how much rests on your actions to save (or end) it. good video, loved all the closeup shots of the dead god, it is absolutely stunning and seeing more of it is always a treat!
I think it might be the corpse of Mother Gith, the skull kinda looks Githyanki to me and the crown points me towards a God-Ruler. It'd also make sense for her corpse to be there as Vlaakith is probably siphoning its power.
I like the snake connection to Yuan-ti. If I remember right, I think there is an implication that at least the current edition not like other deities. Being more a warlock than cleric. It could be that the Yuan-ti deities were killed and replaced by something less divine. True that they don't really have a connection to the Underdark, but the forces that killed and replaced the god might have more of a connection to the Underdark, like demons, or Great Old Ones.
He was my first thought as well. Thought those vortexes might be portals, and I'm not sure his race was ever specified, and being from sigil he could honestly be of any race. Would also be fitting when the Emperor opens a portal right inside his dead skull.
Except that the game is _Baldur's Gate 3_ set in Forgotten Reams, not Planescape Torment;_ and the Lady of Pain and Sigil the City of Doors have absolutely no narrative connection to the BG3 plot. Mystryl the Lady of Mysteries (the first incarnation of Mystra) is a far better match for the Dead God, sicne that's directly connected to the _Crown of Karsus_ plot, as Mystryl sacrificed herself to stop Karsus's folly.
@@TF2CrunchyFrog Forgotten Realms, Planescape and all other main settings (Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Mystara, Greyhawk...) are all in the Prime Material Plane. Planescape, takes place mainly in the Outer and Inner Planes, while all the mortal realms are their own spheres within the Material Plane (except Ravenloft, which is its own plane).
There's quite a few dead gods in the Astral that we know the identities of, and even dead gods can survive in another form called a vestige. That said, there are WAY more unknown god corpses than known.
I always just assumed that was the god/goddess of the mind flayers, since the fangs are kind of indicative of a nonhuman entity, and the holes in the sides of the skull could just be holes instead of eye sockets, like the mind flayers have squishy squid heads. It could also have been Vlaakith's predecessor.
From the forgotten realms wiki, on the entry for Jergal we have the following "Jergal was frequently depicted as a member of an ancient alien race that resembled a cross between a humanoid and a praying mantis."
It's just like seeing that giant dead drake in Elden Ring SOTE and seeing all the evidence of a huge anime battle, shaping the very land, makes you feel so tiny!
Great video! I love rampant speculation and cavalier connection making! P.S. many people assume withers to be Jergal, so that makes me lean away from that option.
Thank you for the support! I'm not much of an artist which is why you only ever see one version of Wiz and Pippy. I was very inspired by black mages and big hat logan!
This Might be Aoskar, the god of Portals who was killed by the Lady of Pain by attempting to take control of the Sigil and his body was removed into the Astral Plane
Has any Forgotten Realms media acknowledged which dead god was used for Tu'narath either? There appear to be many fallen gods' remains just floating around in the Astral Plane.
Fuck man I was not prepared for that feels trip at the end. Got me weeping while making breakfast. Good stuff, loved the video, and to anyone who reads this comment, you are deserving of love, empathy, and for nice things to happen to you.
To me it looks like a gith god. The crown is similarly proportioned to Vlaakith's... and the multiple arms just felt like something a gith god would do.
I always had the idea that it was either Gith (hence why Orpheus is there, can't explain the 4 arms though and the connection is really flimsy behind that) or Jergal, which would also explain why the Dead Three were aware of the Prism's existence. Glad that you mentioned Jergal as the final one, but your analysis was a lot more in depth than I ever went, honestly never even considered the jaw to be Serpent like for example
Excellent video! Love stuff like this. Liked and subscribed, with bell icon and everything. 🙂 Oh, and I thought Jergal, too, but you know. He's not quite dead, is he?
Ohhh, and iirc the Jergal Temple has a bunch of books/items with a flavour text along the lines "anyone who may be able to read this or remember anything about this is long dead". My initial thought was one of the previous Vlaakiths. Cause yanno, I don't think very far or complex and don't know lore lol. Really interesting video, thank you! :)
First time viewer here. Loved this video! You did well to stick to only known facts for this while at the same time doing a good job making the video interesting, engaging, and even respectful. This isn't something i expected about a video game mystery, but i hope to see more of your content in the future!
I like to imagine it's Orpheus' mother Gith. She was killed and Vlaakith took her place, then her son was imprisoned in her skeleton. Being from the Astral Sea seems to solve a lot of the Sun and star motifs, and Githyanki tend to have more aggressive features explaining the teeth. I think her being the queen of the Githyanki also fits the jewelry and the crown. The four arms are.....
Before i played, i was so fucking excited to seeing the skull of a dead god. I got curious and found the 'Withers is Jergal' theory before playing as well, so my first thought was Myrkul. I was so ficking excited to find the remains my Kalach-cha left behind.
Perhaps the gitth's Astral Prism is also worth considering. If it functions as a portal to the astral plane directly to Orpheus' prison, it may contain some sort of material or symbolic beacon to guide the way. Including a reference to the name or symbol of the dead god in whose body the prison is located.
It's literally Gales skeletal remains of his future Godly body. The symbols all point to him, the crown makes sense. And the four arms are his literal extensions of his being.
I distinctly remember when I first realized what I was hopping on there. So freakin cool. Also, I wondered who the god was too. It's possible they're unknowable, but I would be super surprised if no one on the team had an idea in mind for WHO the god is. There would be something cool af about it being Karsus, or I also considered something like it being what was left over when Withers decided on Withers instead. Or even it being Mystryl, although if it is a split lower jaw that's probably not it.
This was exactly my thesis for this video! Like, yeah I know it's probably nobody, but the folks at Larian are fans so did they have someone in mind? That's why I didn't narrow my search to exclusively canon dead gods. And hey, it's fun to talk about! I do really like the idea of it being someone plot relevant like Mystryl.
I believe I've seen a skull like this one in the thumbnail art for a Neverwinter campaign, might have nothing to do with one another but I think of it every time.
I choose to believe that it is the long dead body of Aoskar, the lord of portals, gateways and opportunities who fucked around with a goddess known as “The Lady Of Pain” and found out
Alright y'all I apologize for fast forwarding past the explanation of how God's die!! I made a short out of that bit and uploaded it at the link below!
ua-cam.com/users/shortsrYHwZzUmOcw
I appreciate you sounding off that you wanted to see it, more valuable than anything the analytics retention stat can tell me!
❤
@@Wiz_and_Pippy thank you!
Some of us have attention spans.
Eh, in case you're worrying that some bits might be less interesting than others you can specify the chapters via timecodes, so people can easily fast-forward if they really don't care about something in particular. Anyway, thanks for the upload!
Came to the comments to yell at you for that. Thank you.
😂 was puzzled why 😂 just leave it in next time and just take the bits out for shorts
Crowned skull? Bracelets? It's High Lord Wolnier.
Logical
I thought the same thing
That boss is always nerve racking when you start it, and then just super easy lol.
Wolnir*
Straight to the Carthus Worm you go
I am glad I'm not the only one to think that lol
As an artist myself, I can imagine the artists of the game feeling one of two ways about this video: “YES FINALLY SOMEONE IS PUTTING TOGETHER THE PIECES” or “idk man I just thought it looked cool”
I've had the exact same thought 😂😂
Knowing the BG3 team, it the former certainly wouldn't surprise me
I think Mystryl, the goddess of magic preceding Mystra, makes the most sense. She was born of the conflict between Selune and Shar, though was more aligned with Selune, and sacrificed herself to prevent permanent damage to the weave when Karsus was overwhelmed when Mystryl's power overwhelmed him. Her symbol is a 4-pointed star, and she is strong in the weave. We might "feel safe" with the Divine Miasma because she was more aligned with Selune than Shar, and because she sacrificed herself to protect the Weave.
You've convinced me!
I thought this as well. And, in fact, there's an in game reason for it - It's part of Gale's dialogue tree.
I interpreted it as Karsus, but I suppose there's not necessarily much difference what with Karsus' spell
Is there anything about Mystryl's appearance having 4 arms and 4 eyes?
@@vorpal8285 Nothing official as far as I can tell, but I don't think that makes it not Mystryl. With the obvious exception of Mystra, the gods of DnD don't seem to make a habit of flaunting their true appearances, it's possible that Mystryl did possess those features. Four points to the star, four far-reaching limbs, four all-seeing eyes. Plus if nothing else, it makes thematic sense that the key to conquering the Crown of Karsus would reside within the body of the Crown's first victim.
My mind jumped to Mystryl, the first goddess of magic. Before she was killed by karsts, she had the four-pointed star as her symbol, and theirs a clear connection there.
It would also make a connection to the plot
And the folly of greed
I believe she got reincarnated as mystra
@@quantumofzentrix2748 When has a little thing like mutual contradiction every prevented 2 things from being true in a fantasy setting? Sure this isn't Elder Scrolls but I could see this being the bits that didn't get reborn or something.
I like that and it would nicely connect to the plot!
So something I’ve noticed about some media is that when they kill a god, often times it is that their name is struck from the annals of history and forgotten. Almost as if knowledge of them post-mortem is like a memetic hazard and it’s just removed from existence.
That happens in the game. Right near the start when you find the book near withers.
Then I wonder how mystryl is remembered. Maybe because she was reborn
Yep, that's literally how gods work in most DnD settings (at least the ones set in the Forgotten Realms).
Their power and dominance over their "portfolio" is canonically tied to the worship and following that mortals grant them.
IIRC, in-lore this was put into effect by Ao, god of gods, during the Time of Troubles.
@@John_Doe4269 Yeah, specifically to get them to actually do their jobs iirc.
does the black moon howl?
I always kind of assumed this was a gith god, possibly one that Vlaakith usurped, and that was why orpheus was there in the first place
I honestly thought the same, particularly with the crown iconography.
We could compare it to gith skulls, perhaps?
Vlaakith didnt usurp a god as far as I am aware, but she Usurped Gith and then started having the Gith'yanki worship her as a god to raise her to godhood status. The Gith dont really HAVE gods since they were formerly slaves to the Mind flayers which wouldn't leave much room for worship and the second they got out of that was when the Schism happened and when the first Vlaakith took to power.
@@TheCeekon perhaps a god from even before their enslavement to the mind flayers. the Gith were regular people once
Gith was never a god, she was the leader of the revolution. The Githyanki have no gods as they're species is to alien for that, their origins are purely as a slave race to the Ilithids, it's suggested in a previous timeline or whatever they were all humans but it's not confirmed. The closet thing they've ever had to a real god is Vlaakith.
Aw damn, the fast-forward made me sad
Same, I would've loved to learn more
Like sir, yes i do care and yes i am a lore head 😭
Check the pinned comment, sorry!
My bad my bad, check the pinned comment
I can’t shake the thought that popped up when you mentioned the fractured jaw. It’s mentioned so often in act 1. At the end of ceremorphosis, the jaw splits open to make space for four large tentacles
Uhh, it's in the Astral plane, it houses Vlaakith's living trophy (Orpheus), it's full of githzerai, and it appears to be an epicenter of psyonic energy. I think you wouldn't be far off to argue that you're looking at "Mother Gith" from 4e, laid to waste in the Astral Plane by Vlaakith. Gith did *die* out there, in the Astral Plane. If Vlaakith found her shattered remains, I would argue that she would be cruel enough to take it as a trophy, and stuff Gith's own son in there for good measure
I’m noticing the video creator and the comments are missing the name of the location: Tu’Narath. Laezel mentions it in the game, calling Vlaakith “God Regent of the six arms of Tu’Narath”.
@@BunnyDonutsTu’Narath is the name of the city in the astral plane where Vlaakith rules. The city is built on the body of another dead god, one with 6 arms which is what Lae’zel is talking about. That’s not the one in BG3 since it is way smaller and there is no city built on it
That was my guess too
Exactly what I thought the developers were portraying here!
The astral plane in D&D is filled with probably millions of dead nameless gods it'd be practically impossible to figure out who any of them are
The god might not even have originated in Realmspace. Many other crystal spheres, each with their own independent pantheons, are accessible through the aether by spelljammer (the nautiloid is one of those). The Forgotten Realms are only one of many settings of 1st/2nd edition and aren't particularly special in relation to the story of the gith and illithids (first appearing in the 1st edition Fiend Folio). Lae'zel knows very little about Faerûn, even mispronouncing it and showing contempt for its self-perceived importance. Evidently although her crèche is within Realmspace, namely in Selûne's Tears, they roam quite widely and the corpse where the dream visitor resides could be from almost anywhere in the multiverse, including a crystal sphere for which no official setting exists.
Depends on the lore, SpellJammers aren't astral jammers the new half assed spell jammer crammed them into being. SpellJammers with actual lore content are vehicles that remain EXCLUSIVELY in the material plane. They travel from one sphere to another through the Phlogiston. So if we're talking about first or second edition lore then we're agreeing SpellJammers don't go into the astral plane.
Sorry but this is a huge pet peeve of mine, WoTC WRECKED spelljammer lore just so they'd have an easier time releasing the book.
Dead gods from all over are floating in the astral sea of course, you're right on the "it could be a dead god from any setting" but the SpellJamming has NOTHING to do with the Astral sea unless we're going exclusively with the 5e re-written lore. Actually in 2e if an Astral Jammer were to leave it's route early it'd be destroyed, etc; think of it like exiting 40k FTL prematurely, you're screwed. There was a module written around this, I've got all the 2e PoD they'll sale and I've got ALL the D&D PDF's including Dungeons Magazine and Dragons Magazine.
@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket 5e Lore is the only relevant lore, unfortunately. Things are the way they are.
@@GeorgeWashingtonLaserMusket I mention spelljammers, crystal spheres etc because in that multiverse setting, each crystal sphere has its own pantheon. Even Ao has no authority outside Realmspace. Some are shared e.g. the Mulhorandi pantheon aren't native to Realmspace and Lolth is also a goddess of drow on Oerth (Greyhawk). But most gods are totally unknown outside their own spheres.
@@cshairydude Goblin and Orc pantheons are also multi-prime, same for elves in general rather than just Lolth, and Dwarves.
@@Michael-bn1oi There is no such thing as a retcon, only a mistake.
Me and my physical anthropology background going "That's not an extra orbit..." And then you bust out the temporal fenestra, and I'm like "Yesssssss!"
We went on a journey :)
Myrkul's corpse in Neverwinter Nights 2 also has four arms.
You're kidding!? I didn't remember that and I even went and looked at old footage!
Yes, first time I entered Astral Plane, my thoughts went to NwN2:MotB
First thing i thought of too.
Baldurs Gate 3 would technically be after the events of NWN2
i was thinking the same thing. even the scene and the decor is the same. i was confused as why wiz though it was unknown. an old god corspe of death
@@AspieMemoires The timeline makes sense, at least.
In a spelljammer game I once played, the party was resting in a small spelljammer port built from flotsam using the skeletal bones of a long dead and forgotten god the citizens called Lost To Time as core scaffolding.
Forgotten Refuge became a base of operations for the party for quite a few levels until some rumors got back of a lich doing some time travel shenanigans trying to get to the Time of Troubles and replace Mystra by stealing the portfolio of Mystryl when the god of magic falls. Add in the bones of Lost To Time stirring more often than not and the party was curious.
Adventures later we stumbled across a final encounter between a Netherese archmage trying to absorb all magic and replace Mystryl to keep the Age of Netherese alive while the lich tried to stop the archmage.
The lich succeeded in stopping the archmage, but we stopped the lich from achieving godhood. Back at Forgotten Refuge we were winding down the adventure and a couple players were finishing taking notes. One asked the other to confirm the name of the archmage and the DM just stops midway picking up his books and asks "Is this an ingame conversation you two are having?"
"Uhhh.. I guess?"
With that he opened his binder and fished out a page from it, getting the group's attention he tells us about the moment the archmage's name is mentioned the entire port shuddered as the dead god stirred.
The wizard player from Toril could feel all the arcane energy around him stretch and snap in half, with both halves layering on one another as echoes of each other. Streets collapsed and buildings crushed as flesh knits and grows around the skull. Long story short, the player of the cleric that uttered the name became the new chosen of the Netherese God Of Magic.
The DM stopped there saying he needs to make some changes to things and we'll pick up next session in the ruins of Forgotten Refuge. And we never got to play again. Seasonal work got in the way for the DM, then us teens started school, then the DM's wife left him and he just up and moved away. Never heard from him again.
I just jumped to Mother Gith. The fact that Orpheus was trapped in there was just salt in the wound.
It's definitely not me, i'm a human and alive right now.
Just unlocked memories of reading one of my 2 "Dragon" magazines with a section about exploring dead gods, the enemies there, and the loot. For high level characters of course.
Garagos was a chaotic and bloodthirsty war god of Netheril who was slain by Tempus. He was a god with multiple arms and a bestial countenance. His holy symbol was multiple arms in a star shape, or a pointed star. That is my guess for this astral corpse.
Wasnt Garagos a vassal of Tempus after being defeated?
Garagos was never killed, only defeated.
@@Erier Sort of. Roughly 2,000 years after Tempus beat him, he was left without a home by the Spellplague and had to serve Tempus to keep his divinity. Just like Tiamat having to serve Bane though, Garagos wasn't happy about the situation.
I can't be the only one who read "Gyarados" first 😀
Sooo weirdly relieved they realized that was a fenestra and not an extra eye socket
I apologize for any momentary anxiety I may have caused! 😱
I was confused as well. That didn't strike me at all as another eye socket and wondered what the other eye holes were that you were calling out.
My thought was Amaunator, read up on the Three Faced Sun heresy of the Church of Lathander. It links in Jergal aka Withers. Jergal's imagery is linked to the black swirling void and the Three Faced Sun heresy suggests Amaunator was one along with Jergal and Lathander, Morning, Day, and Night.
One thing that I would start asking is what is the possible "timeline" for the god's death. Remember this place was being used to hold the prison of Orpheus. Vlaakith 1 had him locked up for thousands of years at least.
The astral plane is timeless. Its impossible to determine as it doesn't flow lineraly
I wondered how much this skeleton matched the form of the Slayer, and if Bhaal gifted the Slayer’s form to his Bhaalspawn not as something of his own creation, but stolen from a deity that he once knew (or challenged and defeated.)
Wow the slayer form stolen from another god? Now that's some clever stuff!
Even tho it probably isint him, Withers would look fabulous with that crown on.
Withers crown mod when
That nerdy explanation you were going into about the death of Gods would have been great to hear! You have a decent voice and nice avatar, if you like BG3 a lot maybe try more lore type videos for it?
Thank you and thank you for the suggestion. Check my pinned comment, you're not the only one who would've preferred I did not cut that out. Lesson learned!
Given that Orpheus was imprisoned Inside the skeleton, I always assumed it had something to do with the Gith.
Maybe Mother Gith, maybe Vlaakith 1? Who knows, but I thought that it Had to be related to the Gith in some way.
The Githyanki having spikey teeth too! Same as the skeleton. I figured the crown looked kinda of like the device before the door to Vlaakith at the Creche, with the red gems in it. I definitely felt like it could be Mother Gith.
@drdino2002 In one of his videos AJ Pickett talked about a dead gith god from when they were enslaved by the illithids. I'm spacing on the name at the moment, but if I'm remembering correctly they were a deity manifested from the perseverance of the gith in the face of ongoing enslavement at the hands of the mindflayers and was killed when during their war of independence.
It would be fitting if the first Vlaakith hid Orpheus.
Despite what BG3 claims, Vlaakith is not a goddess and none of them ever have been, so it isn't her, but it still could be related to the Gith
@@byuonesThe entire point of the third game’s story with Lae’zel is that it’s her realizing Vlaakith ISN’T a goddess, and in fact, she just uses a wish spell to kill you if you piss her off. No godly magic.
You didn’t pay attention.
@@NoFlyZone31 i did pay attention actually! to, you know, the mechanics of the damn game? where Vlaakith is a fucking cleric option and not, say, a warlock patron like she's supposed to be? go condescend to someone else
The whole point of a dead god is that they’ve lost all their believers. So there is no memory that could exist.
This question has haunted my nightmares for 8 months. Thank you for this, I can sleep once more.
The next question you'll need to think about is Is that blood? No, nevermind.
I like too imagine that skull was the place that was once the home of the Elder Brain 🧠 at one point
Man, this video is too darn good to only have 200 views, you deserve way more
You awoke the algorithm, all hail the algorithm awakener!
@@Wiz_and_Pippy remember me when you're famous o7
Me at the start of the video (as a joke): “Watch it be Jergal”
Later: …
Exactly
Weavemoss and Cavern Creeper can both be found in act 3 within the city of Baldurs Gate. Weavemoss is in a few places, Cavern Creeper I only remember finding 1 under Cazadors palace.
I was certain it was found only in the underdark area! 🤦♀️
My initial thought was that it was what remained of one of the Spellweavers. Most were killed in the Disjunction, an event predating everything, which should have ascended them, but instead killed all. Only one of those who was to ascend survived, and you do bring him up: Jergal.
I love this connection! Jergal is such a neat character 🙂
@@Wiz_and_Pippy Must admit I never used him in games. Just like I haven't really used Shar and Selune much either in campaigns I have run.
I see many people parroting each other and saying it's Mother Gith but it can't possibly be her. Mother Gith is in the Nine Hells with Tiamat. Also, she wasn't an actual god, her corpse wouldn't be in the Astral Plane.
The ending message made me subscribe. And I like the theory crafting method. Bravo friendo.
heard somewhere on YT a theory that this is an original god of absolute, that was infected with Illithid tadpole, thus the size of the elder brain. that would actually make alot of sense from the skeleton perspective, as back of his skull is broken like something got out of it, his jaw is split to made space for tentacles, and his potential power having to do with "safety" which absolute technically uses as lure for new cultists
That is mad cool. Makes a lot of plot sense too.
Elder brains are all roughly the same size as the Absolute was (in its first scene). Its later, bigger, size was due to netherese magic, not due to its origins.
It's probably just another ulitharid, just like the rest of them.
It is hard for tadpoles to transform creatures past a certain size. It takes a lot of work psionically for a dragon to survive the transformation for example.
Some people say that this might be linked to Neverwinter Nights 2 and the MOTB expansion. But... I dunno.
My first thought when I saw the eye figure in the disc was neverwinter nights. And I dunno either, I personally couldn't find any links per se but there could be!
I love the Jergal as a Spellweaver idea. Even ran a whole campaign focused on that idea.
Spellweavers just have such interesting lore, and it's a real shame 5e never ported them.
I love the weavers quite a lot. I was hoping eve of ruin would explore them and the whole Vecna stealing the obelisk stuff. But I have not had the gumption to get into it and I didn't see a single good word said about it so I have no idea if it does atm.
I just assumed it was myrkul from Neverwinter nights 2 and the book in bg3 about myrkuls wall of the faithless from Neverwinter nights 2 just made me think that even more.
So glad I discovered this channel. It’s soothing, interesting and fun
I honestly thought it was Mother Gith somehow. The sharp teeth, and the pure despicableness of imprisoning Orpheus there.
Couldn't be her, she is most likely in the Nine Hells. And if she wasn't I can't see how she became a god that big and died in the short time between her being sent to the hells and the prism being created.
In my head cannon, it's Mother Gith who ascended to godhood and who was killed as part of the trade that the first Vlakith made with Tiamat. Tiamat gained the divine essence for whatever machinations she had going and the Vlakith got the Astral Prism containing Mother Gith's corpse which was used to imprison Orpheus (ironically with the residual energy of his mother which arguably makes the prison extremely strong due to the close familial bond between them).
Arguably, the Red Dragon's arrival and pronouncement of Mother Gith's death/Vlakith's ascension to the throne may have been what weakened her to the extent that Tiamat could actually kill her.
I think the algorithm is watching my progress in bg3.Last night just finished this part.
No that was me, I'm a big fan of your tiefling paladin/sorcerer 😉
AJ Pickett's videos say that most of the god corpses in the astral plane died in The Dawn War, the war between gods and demons at the beginning of time.
As for my own input, the multiple arms and vague aesthetic of the various adornments remind me of the Hindu gods, who have been notably absent form D&D canon for several editions, and are also notable for spending a lot of time fighting demons in real world Hindu lore.
The divine bone shard making the PC "feel safe" may point to Vishnu, god of protection and preservation (the blue guy).
That would be a nice wink and a nod towards Vishnu
That seems a tad
Oversimplified that it’s a Hindu deva
Cause it has four arms…
I think it’s probably some prehuman god irrelevant to the mortal civilizations of the current age.
really cool video! this is one of my favourite set pieces/levels in the whole game. seeing it for the first time was truly awe-inspiring and i am similarly awed by it every time i replay the game. i agree that this isn't any god in particular. i think the intention (from larian's side) is to give a sense of worlds and histories unfolding beyond your (the player character's) ability to conceive of or reckon with. to me it encapsulates both how small you are as just one little gang of miscreants out to save (or end) the world, and how much rests on your actions to save (or end) it. good video, loved all the closeup shots of the dead god, it is absolutely stunning and seeing more of it is always a treat!
"hey wither, do you know about Jergal"
> insert Alec guiness obi wan meme: "of course I know him, it's me"
I think it might be the corpse of Mother Gith, the skull kinda looks Githyanki to me and the crown points me towards a God-Ruler. It'd also make sense for her corpse to be there as Vlaakith is probably siphoning its power.
3D artist at Larian Studios: Yeah this'll look really sick
I like the snake connection to Yuan-ti. If I remember right, I think there is an implication that at least the current edition not like other deities. Being more a warlock than cleric.
It could be that the Yuan-ti deities were killed and replaced by something less divine. True that they don't really have a connection to the Underdark, but the forces that killed and replaced the god might have more of a connection to the Underdark, like demons, or Great Old Ones.
I love this game and everything about it. Gimme more!
an excuse to play and talk about this game more? Well if you really insist...
Since it's in an ancient githyanki relic it'd stand to reason it's a githyanki god. So that's most likely Gith.
*you hear a distant "Hey! Vsauce, Michael here!"*
It's the God of Portals the Lady of Pain killed
Don't mention that, lest you attract Her attention.
Shiiiiii, the Lady will not like that
He was my first thought as well. Thought those vortexes might be portals, and I'm not sure his race was ever specified, and being from sigil he could honestly be of any race. Would also be fitting when the Emperor opens a portal right inside his dead skull.
Except that the game is _Baldur's Gate 3_ set in Forgotten Reams, not Planescape Torment;_ and the Lady of Pain and Sigil the City of Doors have absolutely no narrative connection to the BG3 plot.
Mystryl the Lady of Mysteries (the first incarnation of Mystra) is a far better match for the Dead God, sicne that's directly connected to the _Crown of Karsus_ plot, as Mystryl sacrificed herself to stop Karsus's folly.
@@TF2CrunchyFrog Forgotten Realms, Planescape and all other main settings (Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Mystara, Greyhawk...) are all in the Prime Material Plane.
Planescape, takes place mainly in the Outer and Inner Planes, while all the mortal realms are their own spheres within the Material Plane (except Ravenloft, which is its own plane).
Perfect timing! Me and my brother have been having lots of conversations about this forgotten space-God lately. xD
There's quite a few dead gods in the Astral that we know the identities of, and even dead gods can survive in another form called a vestige. That said, there are WAY more unknown god corpses than known.
I always just assumed that was the god/goddess of the mind flayers, since the fangs are kind of indicative of a nonhuman entity, and the holes in the sides of the skull could just be holes instead of eye sockets, like the mind flayers have squishy squid heads. It could also have been Vlaakith's predecessor.
I think the ambience sound is like that because of the constant attack from the gith to free orpheus
From the forgotten realms wiki, on the entry for Jergal we have the following "Jergal was frequently depicted as a member of an ancient alien race that resembled a cross between a humanoid and a praying mantis."
It's just like seeing that giant dead drake in Elden Ring SOTE and seeing all the evidence of a huge anime battle, shaping the very land, makes you feel so tiny!
Exactly like this. That ascent told a story!
BG3 lore channel who's chill is relaxing to listen to? Subscribed.
Great video! I love rampant speculation and cavalier connection making!
P.S. many people assume withers to be Jergal, so that makes me lean away from that option.
Thank you! It was fun! I like the theories that connect the skelly to somebody plot relevant the most.
Hey man this is a great vid. This has been in my brain since I first seen it. I also appreciate the Vivi-ish avatar.
Thank you for the support! I'm not much of an artist which is why you only ever see one version of Wiz and Pippy. I was very inspired by black mages and big hat logan!
This Might be Aoskar, the god of Portals who was killed by the Lady of Pain by attempting to take control of the Sigil and his body was removed into the Astral Plane
Very well made video, I'd love to see you go more in depth on your next topic!
If the fast forward fiasco is any indication, depth is good
Has any Forgotten Realms media acknowledged which dead god was used for Tu'narath either? There appear to be many fallen gods' remains just floating around in the Astral Plane.
I don’t know jack about DnD lore but this video was fascinating. Good work.
Thank you!
From what I've heard, Karsus turned into a Great Old One.
Fuck man I was not prepared for that feels trip at the end. Got me weeping while making breakfast. Good stuff, loved the video, and to anyone who reads this comment, you are deserving of love, empathy, and for nice things to happen to you.
To me it looks like a gith god. The crown is similarly proportioned to Vlaakith's... and the multiple arms just felt like something a gith god would do.
I always had the idea that it was either Gith (hence why Orpheus is there, can't explain the 4 arms though and the connection is really flimsy behind that) or Jergal, which would also explain why the Dead Three were aware of the Prism's existence.
Glad that you mentioned Jergal as the final one, but your analysis was a lot more in depth than I ever went, honestly never even considered the jaw to be Serpent like for example
Thank you! 🙂
Excellent video! Love stuff like this. Liked and subscribed, with bell icon and everything. 🙂
Oh, and I thought Jergal, too, but you know. He's not quite dead, is he?
Jergal is in camp burning people for not getting laid
Thank you so much, appreciate it, bell and everything! I think Jergal has much to answer for.
Very fun video 👍
Dang I was expecting a video about a dead god. I wasn't expecting to get in my feels at the end.
this big skelly in the astral plane is probably my favorite location in the whole game
Ohhh, and iirc the Jergal Temple has a bunch of books/items with a flavour text along the lines "anyone who may be able to read this or remember anything about this is long dead".
My initial thought was one of the previous Vlaakiths. Cause yanno, I don't think very far or complex and don't know lore lol.
Really interesting video, thank you! :)
Jergal also didn't die through violence, he willing gave his divinity to the dead three and faded to a support role.
Great point! I really wasn't able to narrow anyone down that would fit all the clues
First time viewer here. Loved this video! You did well to stick to only known facts for this while at the same time doing a good job making the video interesting, engaging, and even respectful. This isn't something i expected about a video game mystery, but i hope to see more of your content in the future!
Great video, just subbed and liked. I look forward to more.
In planescape there is a God that was killed by the lady of pain for trying to invade sigil. That's my best guess
I like to imagine it's Orpheus' mother Gith. She was killed and Vlaakith took her place, then her son was imprisoned in her skeleton. Being from the Astral Sea seems to solve a lot of the Sun and star motifs, and Githyanki tend to have more aggressive features explaining the teeth. I think her being the queen of the Githyanki also fits the jewelry and the crown. The four arms are.....
Before i played, i was so fucking excited to seeing the skull of a dead god. I got curious and found the 'Withers is Jergal' theory before playing as well, so my first thought was Myrkul. I was so ficking excited to find the remains my Kalach-cha left behind.
Banger video. Thanks man!
Appreciate it!
Perhaps the gitth's Astral Prism is also worth considering. If it functions as a portal to the astral plane directly to Orpheus' prison, it may contain some sort of material or symbolic beacon to guide the way. Including a reference to the name or symbol of the dead god in whose body the prison is located.
It's literally Gales skeletal remains of his future Godly body. The symbols all point to him, the crown makes sense. And the four arms are his literal extensions of his being.
FINALY
SOMEONE ASKING THAT QUESTION
THANKS
jergal can make sense but four arms and split lower jaw def made me think of the Slayer/Bhaal lol
It's only got two eyes dude. Those two small holes are the nostrils.
2:42 I love how "a dnd deity" sounds like an epic burn in a rap
"The Astral sea isn't quite space" Me looking over at "Spelljammers: Adventures in Space"
I always thought it was one of the 100+ Vlaakiths, It's so intresting seeing it on the map and from diffrent angles. I'M SO DESPRATE TO KNOW!!!
I distinctly remember when I first realized what I was hopping on there. So freakin cool.
Also, I wondered who the god was too. It's possible they're unknowable, but I would be super surprised if no one on the team had an idea in mind for WHO the god is. There would be something cool af about it being Karsus, or I also considered something like it being what was left over when Withers decided on Withers instead. Or even it being Mystryl, although if it is a split lower jaw that's probably not it.
This was exactly my thesis for this video! Like, yeah I know it's probably nobody, but the folks at Larian are fans so did they have someone in mind? That's why I didn't narrow my search to exclusively canon dead gods. And hey, it's fun to talk about! I do really like the idea of it being someone plot relevant like Mystryl.
Jergal sounds like the sound you make when you've had a little too much to drink and you try and burp quietly.
I have the strange feeling that in a few months I am going to be proud to be amongst your first 1000 subscribers….
I believe I've seen a skull like this one in the thumbnail art for a Neverwinter campaign, might have nothing to do with one another but I think of it every time.
The only way to bring a dead god back is to remember their name. That's old D&D lore. I don't know if it still holds.
I choose to believe that it is the long dead body of Aoskar, the lord of portals, gateways and opportunities who fucked around with a goddess known as “The Lady Of Pain” and found out
0:05 Well, i got the answer i came here for. Thanks!
If it had an exoskeleton instead, I might assume it was some forgotten god if the Thri Kreen.
Thank you for the interesting video!
I was convinced throughout my entire first playthrough that the emperor was Cyric
I didn’t learn he was Balduran until I saw it on a random UA-cam short