Hi Josh. I can't decide if I have been had or naive but I recently bought a load of Birch Ply which I "allowed" myself to think was genuine Baltic Birch. The 18mm has 13 good solid even laminates and is pretty weighty although not weighed a sheet yet, but as I work with it I notice the faces are a very thin veneer which if I'm not very careful when sanding especially near the edge of a panel I quickly get through to what appears to be a darker glue(?) layer. I saw a youtube clip from KJP Select Hardwoods (Canada) talking of ALL Birch plywood. I suspect this is what I have but how on earth do I tell? Are you aware of this stuff being sold in UK? I'm stuck with the stuff for this kitchen project But any advice on how best to deal with it? Cheers
So the supplies are a bit sketchy right now so don't beat yourself up over it. Have you watched my other Birch Ply video? That goes into more detail on types and cores etc. Might be worth a view to see if what you have looks like it should be proper Birch Ply. The other thing you might find is that the quality may be dropping due to the factories trying to make it go further, just the same as food etc seem to be going at the moment. I've seen a few people talk about super thin top faces where they used to be a minimum of 1.5mm thick.
I have purchased the same material at KJP all birch and the top vernier is VERY thin. These are the30” x30” sheets. The 12” x20” are still the regular Baltic birch but will likely disappear soon
I just got hit by this as well. Naked eye was 13 ply, but it's actually 15 - whatever 'Baltic' providence it may be. If you take a jewelry loupe to it, you can see the glue line and the 0.3mm veneer layer right above it. At least KJP all-birch isn't marketed as baltic birch. I'm guessing some upstream suppliers are labelling things as baltic birch because technically, the birch is baltic (rus) - since China and Vietnam doesn't actually have any production birch. These are hefty sheets, but likely core CP/CP with BB/BB veneers slapped on top.
US keeps importing baltic birch like there is no tomorrow. And I wish people would rather look for local options - like maple. Our manufacturers are capable - they just need to understand this.
Hey, apologies for the late reply, work has been manic! Yeah I understand, Im guessing that the importers are getting it for cheap as the US is one of the few places that are still importing it at the moment.
I was listening to a podcast and the syrup drinkers are developing a maple ply now , costs more than Birch did but think it might be that wee bit nicer
Syrup drinkers.....😂 Yeah I've seen some maple ply but it's ridiculously expensive at the moment! Maybe when they make more of it, the price will go down. I would be tempted as I love working with maple but the big thing these manufacturers seem to skimp on is the face veneer. The birch would be around 1 - 1.5mm where as a lot of the replacements seem to be less than half a mm which is no good. Might have to see if I can get hold of some I think!
Hi Josh, you mentioned Eucalyptus Ply, Am I right in thinking it's Red Grandis which is a member of the Eucalyptus family?. If so I use it it a bit in engineered form making windows ,doors etc. It's grown in Uruguay , managed forests and no Koala's are harmed in processing it.. Birch ply is the top one as you say but the quality has gone downhill in the past 20+yrs. Back in the day A-B graded sheets were the standard but now it seems B-B is which is a shame. Trying to process sheets around the butterfly inserts/patches is a nightmare when you aren't painting it.
Hi Adrain, apologies for my poor response, I had to take some time away as work was just too busy. Lots of last-minute jobs and difficult people lol, hope you can understand! I totally agree, I don't mind the B grade too much but the BB grade is just a pain when trying to create paint/stain grade work. I've used Red Grandis a lot in its real timber form, its a nice, cheap substitute for oak I've found!
@@TheNaturalWorkshop Hi Josh, nice to hear from you and no worries,fully understand. I'm the same and still having issues with suppliers. The country has gone to pot. Re: Red Grandis, the engineered stuff is a bit more expensive than solid but far less waste as it comes already planed up close to standard finish sizes so 98mm x 75mm 98mmx98mm and their enginnered anti bend stuff is very good for door stiles, rails etc. Worth considering in the future. All the best and hope life is good. 🙂
Hasnt it! Its a little soul destroying at times thats for sure. I dont think I've seen the engineered stuff anywhere to be honest. Do you mean the PAR/PSE type stuff or is it engineered board? Sounds tempting though, where do you pick it up from?
It's bad we don't have much forests of our own, Birch is like a weed it grows anywhere, it's used to establish hardwood forests and protect young saplings in the early years, then it's thinned out, it's also used to establish old landfill tips and coal mine stacks because it can grow in very poor soil, so much land being wasted for game birds when we could have our own sustainable and profit making industry on our door step.
Yeah its a weird one. Its one of those where I guess its been cheaper to import than it is to grow our own. Not that I agree with it, its a real shame, that's for sure! Interesting to know about the poor soil though, Poplar is a bit like that I think isnt it?
I have "heard" some people are having allergic reactions to eucalyptus wood, so there's that to take into account. I can only afford recycled /found wood or from a local guy cutting timber as a side job. So that's as green as grass and wetter. Hey ho. Work with what ye got till better comes along. Thanks for the presentation, ye've a few questions I've had. Take care & stay safe!
I hadnt thought about that. Thats a good shout, might even be worth doing a video on issues like that. Especially with everyone using pallet wood and not knowing what they have! Hey, we all start somewhere and no shame in working with what you have, Ive found it makes me a better woodworker to be honest, it makes you more creative I think as you have to make it work...thats what I tell myself anyway lol. Glad it helped, same to you 👍🏼
Yeah I think Oak is going up and up as the UK used to source a lot from Ukraine and so that has made our local supplies a lot more strained. You would be surprised the nice work that can be turned out with PAR/PSE Doug Fir and Prices are coming down at the moment.
@@TheNaturalWorkshop I was talking about oak veneer plywood. I should have been more specific. I can get them for about $100 a sheet locally in the Seattle area.
They have but most of the raw materials come from Russia and there lies the problem. Well-used sizes like 18, 12 and 9mm are starting to come back into stock but are priced accordingly, which is another issue lol.
Yeah I think they are working their way through it. The thing to remember is that most of the western world has banned Birch imports from Russia and the US have either stopped buying it or have to pay a 50% additional tax so the demand way outstrips the supply. Like I said, things are starting to settle down, we will just have to see how things pan out over the next 12 months, I think its going to be very interesting!
I miss Birch :( have you rated Q-ply 18mm £45 full sheet:Grade: B/BB Technical Class: EN636-3 Glue Class: EN314-2 Class 3 Structural: CE2+ (Structrural) EN Standard: EN13986:2004
For years most plywood other than Birch has been pretty crappy rubbish! Even simple Far Eastern used to be pretty good stuff, unlike the Chinese 'paper overlay' ply as I like to call it....that stuff warps and delaminates if you breathe on it! I tend to use Wisa spruce ply for a lot of jobs, but it doesn't have the strength and resilience of birch. One alternative might be gaboon marine ply...but god only knows how expensive that is these days!
Ha overlay Ply, that sounds like that stuff I have laying on my floor!! Absolutely terrible, not sure what I can use it for lol. Yeah, I really like the Wisa spruce ply, Ive cut it down before into strips and used it for a desk top, worked perfectly! The Performance Ply I mentioned is like the old school Gaboon Ply, not sure I would want to try and buy the old school stuff now though lol..very expensive Ive no doubt!
Great video. Have you used much formwork ply? I know it's not everyone's colour scheme 😅
🤣 I havnt but would use it if it was cheap lol
@@TheNaturalWorkshop £34 a sheet online for 18mm. That seems just as cheap as normal plywood.
Not a bad price then, I will have a look into it!
Yeah, we're having the same issue over here in the States. I've yet to find a satisfactory replacement. :(
Yeah, it sucks to be honest and I am still on the lookout. The kicker is the density, nothing really comes close to the density of the Birch.
Would love to see a video of the different products available
Ok cool, Ill get it on the list!
Hi Josh. I can't decide if I have been had or naive but I recently bought a load of Birch Ply which I "allowed" myself to think was genuine Baltic Birch. The 18mm has 13 good solid even laminates and is pretty weighty although not weighed a sheet yet, but as I work with it I notice the faces are a very thin veneer which if I'm not very careful when sanding especially near the edge of a panel I quickly get through to what appears to be a darker glue(?) layer. I saw a youtube clip from KJP Select Hardwoods (Canada) talking of ALL Birch plywood. I suspect this is what I have but how on earth do I tell? Are you aware of this stuff being sold in UK? I'm stuck with the stuff for this kitchen project But any advice on how best to deal with it? Cheers
So the supplies are a bit sketchy right now so don't beat yourself up over it. Have you watched my other Birch Ply video? That goes into more detail on types and cores etc. Might be worth a view to see if what you have looks like it should be proper Birch Ply.
The other thing you might find is that the quality may be dropping due to the factories trying to make it go further, just the same as food etc seem to be going at the moment. I've seen a few people talk about super thin top faces where they used to be a minimum of 1.5mm thick.
I have purchased the same material at KJP all birch and the top vernier is VERY thin. These are the30” x30” sheets. The 12” x20” are still the regular Baltic birch but will likely disappear soon
I just got hit by this as well. Naked eye was 13 ply, but it's actually 15 - whatever 'Baltic' providence it may be. If you take a jewelry loupe to it, you can see the glue line and the 0.3mm veneer layer right above it. At least KJP all-birch isn't marketed as baltic birch. I'm guessing some upstream suppliers are labelling things as baltic birch because technically, the birch is baltic (rus) - since China and Vietnam doesn't actually have any production birch. These are hefty sheets, but likely core CP/CP with BB/BB veneers slapped on top.
US keeps importing baltic birch like there is no tomorrow. And I wish people would rather look for local options - like maple. Our manufacturers are capable - they just need to understand this.
Hey, apologies for the late reply, work has been manic! Yeah I understand, Im guessing that the importers are getting it for cheap as the US is one of the few places that are still importing it at the moment.
@@TheNaturalWorkshop it would probably be fine, but the business owners… are directly tied in a lot of things…
I was listening to a podcast and the syrup drinkers are developing a maple ply now , costs more than Birch did but think it might be that wee bit nicer
Syrup drinkers.....😂 Yeah I've seen some maple ply but it's ridiculously expensive at the moment! Maybe when they make more of it, the price will go down. I would be tempted as I love working with maple but the big thing these manufacturers seem to skimp on is the face veneer. The birch would be around 1 - 1.5mm where as a lot of the replacements seem to be less than half a mm which is no good.
Might have to see if I can get hold of some I think!
Hi Josh, you mentioned Eucalyptus Ply, Am I right in thinking it's Red Grandis which is a member of the Eucalyptus family?. If so I use it it a bit in engineered form making windows ,doors etc. It's grown in Uruguay , managed forests and no Koala's are harmed in processing it.. Birch ply is the top one as you say but the quality has gone downhill in the past 20+yrs. Back in the day A-B graded sheets were the standard but now it seems B-B is which is a shame. Trying to process sheets around the butterfly inserts/patches is a nightmare when you aren't painting it.
Hi Adrain, apologies for my poor response, I had to take some time away as work was just too busy. Lots of last-minute jobs and difficult people lol, hope you can understand! I totally agree, I don't mind the B grade too much but the BB grade is just a pain when trying to create paint/stain grade work. I've used Red Grandis a lot in its real timber form, its a nice, cheap substitute for oak I've found!
@@TheNaturalWorkshop Hi Josh, nice to hear from you and no worries,fully understand. I'm the same and still having issues with suppliers. The country has gone to pot. Re: Red Grandis, the engineered stuff is a bit more expensive than solid but far less waste as it comes already planed up close to standard finish sizes so 98mm x 75mm 98mmx98mm and their enginnered anti bend stuff is very good for door stiles, rails etc. Worth considering in the future. All the best and hope life is good. 🙂
Hasnt it! Its a little soul destroying at times thats for sure.
I dont think I've seen the engineered stuff anywhere to be honest. Do you mean the PAR/PSE type stuff or is it engineered board? Sounds tempting though, where do you pick it up from?
It's bad we don't have much forests of our own, Birch is like a weed it grows anywhere, it's used to establish hardwood forests and protect young saplings in the early years, then it's thinned out, it's also used to establish old landfill tips and coal mine stacks because it can grow in very poor soil, so much land being wasted for game birds when we could have our own sustainable and profit making industry on our door step.
Yeah its a weird one. Its one of those where I guess its been cheaper to import than it is to grow our own. Not that I agree with it, its a real shame, that's for sure! Interesting to know about the poor soil though, Poplar is a bit like that I think isnt it?
I have "heard" some people are having allergic reactions to eucalyptus wood, so there's that to take into account. I can only afford recycled /found wood or from a local guy cutting timber as a side job. So that's as green as grass and wetter. Hey ho. Work with what ye got till better comes along. Thanks for the presentation, ye've a few questions I've had. Take care & stay safe!
I hadnt thought about that. Thats a good shout, might even be worth doing a video on issues like that. Especially with everyone using pallet wood and not knowing what they have! Hey, we all start somewhere and no shame in working with what you have, Ive found it makes me a better woodworker to be honest, it makes you more creative I think as you have to make it work...thats what I tell myself anyway lol. Glad it helped, same to you 👍🏼
Oak seems to be available for me but at a huge $$$
Yeah I think Oak is going up and up as the UK used to source a lot from Ukraine and so that has made our local supplies a lot more strained. You would be surprised the nice work that can be turned out with PAR/PSE Doug Fir and Prices are coming down at the moment.
@@TheNaturalWorkshop I was talking about oak veneer plywood. I should have been more specific. I can get them for about $100 a sheet locally in the Seattle area.
Ah ok, I get you! Is that Birch core? A lot of what Ive seen in the US seems to have a softwood core.
Why haven't the manufacturers stepped up and started producing their own from now conflict timber. Feels like they are missing a trick.
They have but most of the raw materials come from Russia and there lies the problem. Well-used sizes like 18, 12 and 9mm are starting to come back into stock but are priced accordingly, which is another issue lol.
@@TheNaturalWorkshop Why can't they use European Beech, that very plentiful and sustainable.
Yeah I think they are working their way through it. The thing to remember is that most of the western world has banned Birch imports from Russia and the US have either stopped buying it or have to pay a 50% additional tax so the demand way outstrips the supply. Like I said, things are starting to settle down, we will just have to see how things pan out over the next 12 months, I think its going to be very interesting!
I miss Birch :( have you rated Q-ply 18mm £45 full sheet:Grade: B/BB
Technical Class: EN636-3
Glue Class: EN314-2 Class 3
Structural: CE2+ (Structrural)
EN Standard: EN13986:2004
No, not heard of that. Where can you get it from in the UK?
For years most plywood other than Birch has been pretty crappy rubbish! Even simple Far Eastern used to be pretty good stuff, unlike the Chinese 'paper overlay' ply as I like to call it....that stuff warps and delaminates if you breathe on it!
I tend to use Wisa spruce ply for a lot of jobs, but it doesn't have the strength and resilience of birch. One alternative might be gaboon marine ply...but god only knows how expensive that is these days!
Ha overlay Ply, that sounds like that stuff I have laying on my floor!! Absolutely terrible, not sure what I can use it for lol. Yeah, I really like the Wisa spruce ply, Ive cut it down before into strips and used it for a desk top, worked perfectly! The Performance Ply I mentioned is like the old school Gaboon Ply, not sure I would want to try and buy the old school stuff now though lol..very expensive Ive no doubt!