Metatron, I trust your pronunciation. You obviously have the background and honest interest in Linguistics. I love your in depth content and discussion.
This ai -> ae change is really interesting because, as a Portuguese native speaker, when I speak Latin with the classical pronunciation I normally tend to pronounce ae as ai simply because it's much more natural for a me to diminish the e vowel into an i when it's weakened. Perhaps this intuition comes from Latin itself.
That's just a credit to the brilliance of Fallout: New Vegas fam if you keep learning about it then the developers did more good than they might ever realize :)
Whenever I explain how spelling mistakes are phonetic representations of a word, I use "school". Like... you go to school, but some people think they're too "kool for skool." So in 1500 years archeolinguists will know that "sch-" has a hard "K" sound. Being English, I'm slightly afraid people are gonna think we said "Keers".
I would like to see a 40K movie where the Astates and Custodies version of High Gothic is Classical latin while the Ecclesiarchy (including the Black Templars) and Administratum uses Ecclesiastical latin as a subtle hint at how they view the Emperor.
Mr. McHaxxornoob really interesting, and it's curios how the word didn't survive as well in former roman provinces. At least I can't find any similar word in spanish.
Santiago Boo It survived as a given name in Italy, but it's not very popular. Maybe it's because it used to be a specific title for a political figure with a specific function, and their was no point in using it for later rulers because they preferred to use their own terms. I read a very interesting book on the roman concept of 'empire' and the way it was later used by other powers who wanted to claim to be 'empires'. It was ''Rome: history of an empire'', by Greg Woolf. Probably these countries were close enough geographically to the empire to be able to use the name 'Caesar' to aggrandize themselves, but not close enough to the old roman territories for it to mean something too specific.
And that demonstrates a third way how the scholars know. The fourth way is then the fact that there were people writing scholarly articles about speech even back then. Rhetoric was considered important, and pronunciation is part of that, so there were people who wrote about pronunciation,. and some of those writings survived.
@Hiponakte The point he was making was precisely that - use the pronunciation appropriate to the author. English poetry and literature works the same way
For us Arabic speakers, the classical Latin pronunciation is generally the same as the Arabic pronunciation of Caesar, I always found the English pronunciation odd.
Why would one prefer Classical Latin over Ecclesiastical Latin or other way around? I mean, the Romans of Old spoke the Classical version, but Latin existed as a language long after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and people used Ecclesiastical Latin for a thousand years, so it's not incorrect aswell. You just use the form of Latin that was used in the period. For example, if you are reenacting Republican period, you use Classical Latin, but when you're doing the Medieval and Reneissance you use Ecclesiastical. Just as you would Old English when reenacting Anglo-Saxon period and Early Modern English when playing "Romeo and Juliet". As for actually reading Latin text, I think it's up to each person individualy. What you personally prefer. I, for one prefer Ecclesiastical Latin for my pronunciation, but it doesn't mean that it's correct or not. It's just that that it's easier for me to use that form of Latin. Of course if I had to reenact a scene or read Classical writing to the public, I would use Classiccal pronunciation.
XYU He's right, the italian language was only adopted in 1861 when Italy was unified as a single kingdom, although in that period people still spoke their local languages or "dialects". The italian language comes from Firenze's language (fiorentino) in the 1300 A.C. influenced by 1200 sicilian scholar language that in turn was influenced by Vulgar Latin (the spoken latin of common people, which is different from written latin that was adopted by classical authors and used by higher social classes), but keep in mind a language evolves really fast, so 1300' fiorentino was a lot different from 900' fiorentino, much closer to vulgar latin, but still a vulgar "italian". That said, the Church latin couldn't be influenced by italian since it wasn't even a language, the Church has always been very conservative so the latin liturgy couldnt really change from past to modern days.
Metatron, love your distinction in ecclesiastical and classic Latin. As an amateur linguist, myself, (I've studied Koine Greek from Dr. Patricia Berkram) I've seen the differences between Attica Greek and Koine Greek and the accidence of the two languages. Most of the Latin I've seen was ecclesiastical being born to the Catholic church. Later I studied Latin mottoes alongside Emblazon in the Society for Creative Anachronism. Percussus Resurgo
This video was quite interesting, particularly the method of reconstructing a dormant language. I had kind of assumed that the Caesar of Rome would have been pronounced as Kaisar due to the Holy Roman Empire using that pronounciation for the German equivalent. I was actually quite surprised in an earlier video where you brought up Ecclesiastical Latin and it's equivalent pronounciation as I wasn't aware of Ecclesiastical Latin before then.
I am a classical singer, so I sing in Ecclesiastical Latin, and Italian, a lot. I do also sing in German. I am also a spiritual healer and I am interested in how a sound feels, how the pronunciation of a word changes its feeling or impact. (Although maybe it is ultimately down to how we say it, the emotion behind it, rather than pronunciation). So my mind is blown listening to your video! I had never heard Classical Latin pronunciation before today! What gives me some chills is how Cæsar sounds so similar to Kaiser. That puts a whole new slant on how I psychologically perceive a Roman emperor. Although obviously they were who they were, and people are multi faceted. I do associate the Italianate pronunciation with greater romance, passion and love; whereas I associate languages that feature more clipped consonants with law and order. I don't know if this is just me! I definitely want to hear more of all the different Classical pronunciations and absorb myself in the sound world, so I will check out your other video! Thank you!
Ave, Metatron! Grazie per un altro video splendido. An Italian raised in an Anglophone country, I prefer the classical pronunciation of Latin as long as the "r" is rolled.
Ma che POTERI MAGICI hai, Metatron? No perchè ho malsopportato 5 anni di latino al liceo e invece adesso mi ritrovo a esultare di gioia nel leggere il titolo di questo nuovo video: "OOOOOH... INTERESSANTE!!!!". Mannaggia a te!!! :D :D :D ps. grazie! ;)
The one thing that's always been interesting to me is that even though I studied Latin for four years, and all those years I was only learning the classical pronunciation, I can still pretty easily understand someone who's speaking ecclesiastical Latin. It's kinda like listening to it in a different accent to me.
I've noticed the same effect, just from the other side. I've been learning ecclesiastical Latin for about six years now, and I've found that I can effortlessly switch to classical even though I rarely use it.
Enjoyed this video and learned ALOT. As a transplanted Catholic of Italian ancestry, I have new appreciation for thinking about classical and ecclesiastical latin. This is why I love youtube and your channel - learning is eternal
thanks for that explains much to me i am 70 but never too old to learn new/ historical things thanks for the info an Italian telling me things about the English language i never knew.
I really enjoyed this video. It made me reflect on how I pronounce things in different languages. Please make more content on reconstruction/changes. However, I got one little problem with the reconstructions: For instance if someone speaks German and writes it accordingly like this: _Isz nix drunter_ it does by no means indicate that the majority pronounced things like that. On the other hand writing it _es ist nichts darunter_ doesn't prove that the majority pronounces every syllable correctly. A much better indication are puns and rhymes. E.g. when someone rhymes _mood_ with _blood_.
Ciao Metatron! Ti ho scoperto per caso qualche giorno fa per caso e volevo dirti che il tuo canale è fantastico! Continua così. Probabilmente hai un pubblico molto internazionale e sei poco conosciuto presso gli italiani.
XYU The language survived through catholic liturgy and chori till nowadays, it didnt survive through a bunch of intellectuals who think they can revive the exact pronunciation from comparisons or some shit.
This can only come from people who have no idea neither about Latin nor about historical linguistics :-) There is nothing like a "true Roman", there were different ways Latin was spoken.
@@MusaPedestris Salve, amica. I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about there being "no such thing as a true Roman". The original Romans were the very Indo-European Latin stock of that specific area of Italy. The ruling class of Rome was distinct from the peoples it ruled on the Italian peninsula, who were not Indo-European but still Caucasoid nonetheless. The Romans had a tendency to blondism, red hair, blue eyes and fair or ruddy skin. Very Roman characteristics, for those who think the typical Roman was olive-skinned (more of an Etruscan, Sardinian or Southern Italic trait). At least about 10-20 or so Emperors were either light eyed or blondish or both. I do agree that there were many different ways of pronouncing Latin through the centuries. However, Classical and Ecclesiastical pronunciations are the only ones that are intelligible to modern ears, and therefore standards, because if people were to hear the way Latin was spoken by rustic folk even in Classical times, or in the 5th century AD, they would have a hard time understanding.
I also would think there are differences between Ecclesiastical Latin and late Byzantine Empire Latin. As well as between Latin from the time of Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, the time of Augustus and say the time Constantine. If you think it that way, then there's a time frame of over 2000 years active use of Latin, and no one would assume its even remotely the same. Good video
I think there is evidence of (e g.) palatalization of c before front vowels by 450 C.E. (CIL VIII 21801 [or CIL XIV 2165] "intcitamento" for "incitamento").
Excellent. I do love the way you provide such a detailed and descriptive way of proving your points. I do not understand why someone would criticize your comments or the way you pronounce words. You are a scholar and (even though you are still doing research) know what you are talking about. But, there will always be those who feel they know best even though they do not have the knowledge to back up their negative comments. Continue on providing the knowledge you have learned. It helps those of us who love history and all things historical. Speech is about as historical as you can get. The development of languages has come a long way. The English I learned to speak as a child in the Southern United States is very different than what you learned as when you lived in England. Yet with the advent of modern television and now with UA-cam and other internet videos, it is evolving into a much more readily understandable language world wide. Thank you, and have a great day.
Haha my comment liked by the great Metatron himself, i feel honored :D You are a machine man, keep it up! Amazing video as well, i wanted to ask , although it may sound silly because i don't know much latin, but trying to understand languages, i found a lot of letters are not pronounced in the western world, unlike in eastern europe where i am from. I was wondering if something like this was happening with the classical latin. For example, for me personally (im no expert by any means), it would sort of make sense that the "s" at the end of some words or names was not even pronounced or it was very quiet. Try it out it ,sounds kind of cool, but i want to know if there is this would even make sense to you or if there some basis to this theory. Thanks :)
Could you make a video about why vulgar latin (or Proto - Romance) differs so much grammatically from classical latin? Their grammars seem so different where it's just surprising to know those languages are related.
Would love a video like this about the Greek language about Ancient Greek, Koine, Byzantine and that, as I understand it is even more of a mess there when it comes to understanding what is what and why.
Nice video :) I personally prefer the pronuntia restituta, IMHO it sounds way better especially with the classical works. Nice new place where you record too :)!
I really hope you did not consider my comment in the other video an attack, it would be a first time in many many years of internet :) And you are the last one to deserve such attack. As I wrote I just wanted to stimulate a clarification as you promptly did. Really thank you. The suggestion to put in the actual context the pronunciation is a valid one. Said that i will continue my research, I want to find also how the "evidences" and their logic of deduction from the other party (the ones that say that even with its centuries long evolution some pronunciations are not like reconstructed by the methods you described) are confuted.
Here in ex-Yugoslavia we are taught ecclesiastical in high school and both ecclesiastical and classical in university. What surprises me here, though, is your pronunciation of C in ecclesiastical latin. We do not pronounce it as the soft "ch" sound you demonstrated, but rather like the "zz" in pizza, or "ts" in tsunami. In the ecclesiastical pronunciation, as we are taught, Caesar is pronounced like "Tse-zar", not "Che-zar". Maybe the way you presented is a product of a specifically italian development of ecclesiastical/vulgar latin? Or maybe our way is adapted to the slavic languages?
When I took Latin in Canadian public school in the 1960s we were taught the classical pronociation which makes sense since much of the reading material was by classical speaking authors like Caesar. As I understand it speach and retoric was a significant part of Roman upper class education. The pronouciation of Gordon would vary by where it was being spoken. In Canada you would not make that mistake. Canadians in many words pronounce ou as a diphthong such as in about which Americans mistakenly think sounds like aboot but to Canadians it sounds nothing like that. There was research in Japan that suggested that if a baby does not hear a sound in the spoken language it hears it looses the ability to differentiate it.
A propos, the proper pronounciation of the word CAESAR with the diphthong "ay" is also preserved as a loanword in few languages. This pronounciation can be found for example in Arabic "qaysar" (قيصر), which stands for caesar or emperor same goes for Hebrew "qeysar " (קיסר). Propably there are more languages that preserved this pronounciation, but the only I know about are Arabic and Hebrew. This is the way linguists can base on their ideas about the ancient pronounciation of the words in Latin and other ancient languages. Loanword is the keyword here.
Thank you thank you. I don't have a preference for either Latin...only an emotional ' I love it and that because you try to avoid rigid thinking I am so so honoured to be able to learn from you.
Could you do a similar video to Koine vs Attic Greek? Also, when I attended a Christian university, I studied Classical Latin (although we pronounced V's as V's, not U's), but Koine Greek. This could be due to different teachers of each, but I thought it was strange.
this might be weird but i love your intro music! could tell what it is and where to find it? also fantastic video please do some more on Latin Italian etc....
I've also heard from others that we also know how it sounded by the critque left behind by ancient Romans on the spelling changes of dialects and on vulgar latin.
Dutch (Nederlands) has quite a few Latin words and expressions, like 'keizer' (Caesar) etc. comparing your teachings we pronounce them closer to classical Latin.
Very interesting. I would only add that there are varieties of pronunciation for ecclesiastical Latin as well. For example, in the Middle Ages ecclesiastical Latin, as spoken in the British Isles, was something closer to what we would call "Legal Latin."
Bel video! Devo dire che hai trattato la questione, molto delicata, in modo preciso ed efficace, seppur sinteticamente. Comunque, in caso tu non lo sappia già, quella che comunemente è chiamata “pronuncia classica” o “classical pronunciation” non è, in realtà, la pronuncia più dettagliata e completa del latino d’età classica; infatti essa deriva da una semplificazione abbastanza significativa di quella che è conosciuta in àmbito accademico come “pronuncia ricostruita” (restored classical pronunciation) e che - questa sì - riesce a rappresentare con notevole precisione quella che doveva essere la pronuncia del latino parlato dal ceto istruito nel periodo classico. Tanto per farti un esempio di un elemento di questa pronuncia non presente nella pronuncia classica, sappiamo quasi con assoluta certezza che le -m finali di parola non fossero più pronunciate, ma causassero, invece, la nasalizzazione della vocale precedente (fenomeno il cui inizio è da rintracciarsi già nel periodo arcaico, vd. in alcune iscrizioni VIRO per VIROM, forma arcaica di “virum”). Anche alcune vocali, come la i e la u brevi, suonavano in maniera diversa da come sono pronunciate in italiano (la i breve era molto simile alla i inglese di “pit”, mentre la u breve era più o meno come la u di “put” o il digramma oo in “good”). In caso tu volessi approfondire la questione ed imparare una pronuncia ancora più precisa e vicina a quella che doveva essere di Cesare o Cicerone, ti consiglio di cercare il PDF di Vox Latina, trattato molto importante per tali studî, in inglese, scritto da W.S. Allen ed edito dalla Cambridge University Press (il PDF posso facilmente mandartelo per mail).
Video molto interessante! Metatron, io ho sentito parlare poco tempo fa di alcuni graffiti risalenti all'epoca Imperiale (se non erro) che hanno permesso di ricostruire la pronuncia del latino contemporaneo proprio grazie allo stesso tipo di errori commessi di cui tu hai parlato, ne eri a conoscenza anche tu, suppongo? Sempre grande, continua così!😁
This was very useful. I find this topic fascinating. In my country, in high school we learned something completely different. We were taught that in classical latin it's pronounced /kaisar/ (like in old latin), and in ecclesiastical /tsezar/ (with c, not tʃ, and z, not s). So, neither was correct! I will investigate further, but I guess at university level it should be better.
"c" like a "tz" is the modern German way of pronouncing Ecclesistical. The pope actually spoke about it and asked all Catholic countries to stick to Rome Italian pronunciation of the "c"
You are absolutely right, Metraton, on the other hand this is not just your speculations about such differences, I remember reading this in old Latin textbooks, so if people say you're wrong it's just their fault, they're are ignorant!
Good video! Yeah, I know that! Some Italians criticized my videos because I use the classical pronunciation. They don't consider that there are different ways of pronouncing Latin and think there's only one true method. Beautiful British English, by the way! :-) It seems to be that you're fluent in Italian, too?
Sorry, this is pretty off topic, and it's a bit later than the time period you usually cover, but I was just thinking about late 18th century to Napoleonic era naval combat, which featured fairly regular boarding actions and subsequent hand to hand combat. Why was armor not (to my knowledge) used in these cases? I understand not carrying enough to equip the whole ship's company, but surely officers could easily afford and stow at least a mail shirt and helmet. Thanks!
i'm italian and my teacher when she was first introducing my class to Latin told us about classical latin and how it is pronounced and that we were going to use the ecclesistical pronunciation. I think every teacher does that, those who told you were ignorant I guess were the ones who didn't care at all about the subject at School and the only thing they knew was how to read "ae"
May I ask, can you make a video about your opinion with Google translations; since when you said “The Germans and the Greeks said Caesar with a hard c and not a soft c” made me checked and most of the translations, thus I did not do all, but mostly said Caesar with the soft c except Greek.
Metatron, I have begun utilizing transparent language to learn Latin. I'm doing OK with it. I am in the United States or in Okinawa, Japan at any given moment. I don't have the luxury to meet people to practice. Any advise on how to learn either version. For example; when I was a child I had a kids book with pictures and a teacher in Puerto Rico thought me how to read, write and speak in Spanish; I was in second grade. Can you advise of any kids references (i.e. texts, books and videos) that can use to aid me in my literacy and conversational skills with the language? Perhaps the material being used in the Italian school system?
I would say it should depend on what the author would have used. Using the same pronunciation set for the writings of Cicero as for, say, those of Bernard of Clairvaux would just seem off.
Honestly i like both if im talking in an informal or more common folk context ecclesiastical pronunciation if im talking about official and to nobles i will always use classical
I mostly care about Latin in the Roman context, and have never had anyone teach me ecclesiastical pronunciation. Curiously, aside from being more interesting, I also consider the classic way considerably easier for a Finnish speaker to pick up. A lot of it comes very naturally.
That's incredibly interesting, as I find the ecclesiastical alot easier. I speak Italian, Spanish, and English, and for some reason I find ecclesiastical much simpler. I can see how the classical has so much in common with Finnish, german, Dutch, etc. Gotta love how language is just a constant changing thing!
Anakin Skywalker I speak English and I’m learning Spanish and Classical Latin. I’ve barely starting learning Latin and I’ve already seen and heard so many connections it has with French, Spanish, and a little bit of English so far.
This was really interesting! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Latin pronounciation that is taught in high schools, for instance, depends a lot on what country you're from and what sounds you have in your language. I watched a video made by a native English speaker and your video speaking Latin you made some time ago and honestly there are a bunch of differences in pronounciation that I found compared to how you both pronounced it and to how I was taught to read Latin. We'd never say "Cesar" with the "ch" sound because it's pronounced with a "ts" sound in our native language (ooor we could read it with a "k" if we're really trying xD). I understand it's probably wrong but I'm talking about studying Latin for a few months, nothing too advanced and complicated, more like a basic course on the language's grammar. I expect that if one is studying Classical Studies they'd go into pronounciation in depth and not just adopt the sound of their mother tongue when reading Latin.
Gratias Metatroni ago ob pelliculam optimam. Consentio, non decorum est de enuntiatione conqueri. Tamen, velim plus discipulorum Latinae loqui cum enuntiatione Classica.
Hi. I am from Iran and Cesar is written سزار and pronounced Sezar. In response to your question, I should say I'm a fan of ancient languages so I prefer Classical but man pronouncing C like Ch seems way cooler :)
About a month ago you did a video about knife fights. I'm sorry if this has nothing to do with this video, but where do you get the chainmail from? I live in Italy as well, close to Milan, and I'm really interested in getting one for obvious reasons. I'd appreciate it a lot if you could answer. Great videos by the way, I love them. One of the best English-speaking Italians right here
Question. What pronunciation is used by modern day protestants who read, say, Calvin or other Reformed or Protestant Latin Texts. Do they still use the Ecclesiastical style or Classical style?
Hi Metatron! I just want to ask, how should we pronounce magna cum laude? Should we follow Classical Latin or Ecclesiastical? Personally, if Classical Latin is the form of Latin used in universities we should pronounce it as (mag-na) and not (maña) like Ecclesiastical would put it. Hope you can shed light to this. Thank you and more power! PS. I really love your hair.
Thanks for your interesting videos, Metatron! I've got a few questions about s and x in ecclesiastical Latin. 1. I've seen ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation guides which mention that the intervocalic s is pronounced as a z. I've been studying Latin for a few years and have switched from the classical pronunciation to Modern/Ecclesiastical for fun. I've heard several speakers of ecclesiastical Latin pronounce the intervocalic s as a z and others who do not. What's your preference? Is this influenced by where in Italy you are from? I watched your video about the differences between Northern/Southern Italian. 2. I've read Latin pronunciation guides which mention that ex followed by a vowel or h in ecclesiastical Latin is pronounced as 'egz' instead of 'eks' in words like exaudi. Is this true for most Italian speakers of Latin or does the egz/eks choice depend on clear regional differences? What is your preference? Gratias tibi ago!
Hi, As far as I understand, the way that classical latin was pronounce is not known for sure, there are only logical deductions or there is a writen document from that period stating the classical latin phonetics ?
Very good video. I can vouch for this information with my five and a half year education on Latin. Don't ask me to translate anything, though. I have enough trouble tutoring my brother
fun fact - traditional church latin is different here ( Croatia) and closer to Croatian pronunciation of letters c or g for example ( classical used in schools though). Wonder about other countries.
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. I'm looking into learning Latin right now and I'm wondering if you think it would make a big difference which of these two I learn if I might be mingling between people who prefer either one. I get the impression that the differences are not too significant and that someone who knows one would be able to speak with and understand someone who knows the other but they would hear each other's accents. Comparable to how someone with a German accent might speak English with the common mispronouncing of W as V as well as S as Z, among other notable differences that do not prevent or significantly hinder communication. Is that accurate?
Just the first few seconds of you actually talking about pronunciations and I already learned something.. I always thought Caeser was just pronounced "Seezer" But then, I guess that's just an English pronunciation for a Latin word.
Don't necessarily have preference but I know all languages change over time and what were regional dialects can become new languages that may have a certain level of intelligibility with one another (like Germanic or Romance languages). I don't think one is necessarily more correct than another but rather that the construct of the language changes with the people that speak it. I am currently focusing on Classical Latin as it is the tools for learning are very abundant but I have every intention of looking/sounding as many of the different forms of Latin as I can. I think ultimately I will focus on Vulgar Latin however mainly as a way of understanding how Romance has come to be
I was taught Classical Latin. When I read Catholic prayers, I say them in Classical, which no doubt sounds strange. However, in reading prayers to the Roman Gods, I expect I sound right. By the way, is "Venus" declined as a masculine noun (i.e. Is there a vocative "Vene"?)?
I like the ae sound and I am used to it because in Spain teachers don't have those problems. But I also love the v sound as a Romanian I am used to it speaking Romanian. Sooo... I don't like hearing "facta non uerba" instead of "facta non verba" am I crazy? Caesar sounds nice to me but not uici. Why can't we use both? Oh fortuna. Do you know any dialect which combines both? Or I'll have to create my very own perfect cool sounding Latin modern dialect...
I think the pronunciation should be based on from where the quote is from, for example if youre quoting romans, you should use the classic pronunciation, if youre quoting the pope or something, then the ecclesiastical pronunciation
Metatron, I trust your pronunciation. You obviously have the background and honest interest in Linguistics. I love your in depth content and discussion.
Thank you for trusting me
This ai -> ae change is really interesting because, as a Portuguese native speaker, when I speak Latin with the classical pronunciation I normally tend to pronounce ae as ai simply because it's much more natural for a me to diminish the e vowel into an i when it's weakened. Perhaps this intuition comes from Latin itself.
This might be a little embarrassing to admit, but my first introduction to classical latin was Fallout: New Vegas.
Arcade Gannon got me into Latin
Ave, true to Kaesar
ikr
You have to start somewhere. ;-)
That's just a credit to the brilliance of Fallout: New Vegas fam if you keep learning about it then the developers did more good than they might ever realize :)
Nothing embarrassing about it. We all have to start from somewhere, even if that is a video game that has little to do with the subject. :)
Whenever I explain how spelling mistakes are phonetic representations of a word, I use "school".
Like... you go to school, but some people think they're too "kool for skool." So in 1500 years archeolinguists will know that "sch-" has a hard "K" sound.
Being English, I'm slightly afraid people are gonna think we said "Keers".
That made me kuckle.
I would like to see a 40K movie where the Astates and Custodies version of High Gothic is Classical latin while the Ecclesiarchy (including the Black Templars) and Administratum uses Ecclesiastical latin as a subtle hint at how they view the Emperor.
their archaeologists will be well kuffed when they find this out
Classical every time. Loving your channel
So does the german word kaiser come from latin caesar?
Santiago Boo It sure does! As does the Slavic word "Czar/Tsar" Scandinavian "Kejsare" Norse "Kjarr" and so on.
It's strange how the word survived in places the roman empire never reached.
Mr. McHaxxornoob really interesting, and it's curios how the word didn't survive as well in former roman provinces. At least I can't find any similar word in spanish.
Santiago Boo It survived as a given name in Italy, but it's not very popular. Maybe it's because it used to be a specific title for a political figure with a specific function, and their was no point in using it for later rulers because they preferred to use their own terms.
I read a very interesting book on the roman concept of 'empire' and the way it was later used by other powers who wanted to claim to be 'empires'. It was ''Rome: history of an empire'', by Greg Woolf. Probably these countries were close enough geographically to the empire to be able to use the name 'Caesar' to aggrandize themselves, but not close enough to the old roman territories for it to mean something too specific.
Yes, but Kaiser and Caesar are pronounced different in German.
In Portuguese high schools we teach the classical pronunciation, also called 'restored pronunciation' :)
Thank you for you videos!
Thank you Carla for watching my video :)
Pronounce it the way the author would have. That way it gives the context by sound and keeps rhymes working
Exactly, reading the Carmina Burana in classical Latin would make no sense, as would Ovidius in ecclesiastical.
And that demonstrates a third way how the scholars know.
The fourth way is then the fact that there were people writing scholarly articles about speech even back then. Rhetoric was considered important, and pronunciation is part of that, so there were people who wrote about pronunciation,. and some of those writings survived.
@Hiponakte The point he was making was precisely that - use the pronunciation appropriate to the author. English poetry and literature works the same way
For us Arabic speakers, the classical Latin pronunciation is generally the same as the Arabic pronunciation of Caesar, I always found the English pronunciation odd.
Italian pronunciation of Caesar sounds like cheese commercial. Latin pronunciation of Caesar sounds like a conqueror.
XD
I was not expecting that comparison
Why would one prefer Classical Latin over Ecclesiastical Latin or other way around? I mean, the Romans of Old spoke the Classical version, but Latin existed as a language long after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, and people used Ecclesiastical Latin for a thousand years, so it's not incorrect aswell. You just use the form of Latin that was used in the period. For example, if you are reenacting Republican period, you use Classical Latin, but when you're doing the Medieval and Reneissance you use Ecclesiastical.
Just as you would Old English when reenacting Anglo-Saxon period and Early Modern English when playing "Romeo and Juliet".
As for actually reading Latin text, I think it's up to each person individualy. What you personally prefer. I, for one prefer Ecclesiastical Latin for my pronunciation, but it doesn't mean that it's correct or not. It's just that that it's easier for me to use that form of Latin. Of course if I had to reenact a scene or read Classical writing to the public, I would use Classiccal pronunciation.
Well said.
Vitalis - This.
XYU He's right, the italian language was only adopted in 1861 when Italy was unified as a single kingdom, although in that period people still spoke their local languages or "dialects". The italian language comes from Firenze's language (fiorentino) in the 1300 A.C. influenced by 1200 sicilian scholar language that in turn was influenced by Vulgar Latin (the spoken latin of common people, which is different from written latin that was adopted by classical authors and used by higher social classes), but keep in mind a language evolves really fast, so 1300' fiorentino was a lot different from 900' fiorentino, much closer to vulgar latin, but still a vulgar "italian". That said, the Church latin couldn't be influenced by italian since it wasn't even a language, the Church has always been very conservative so the latin liturgy couldnt really change from past to modern days.
XYU I agree with you about the "classical pronunciation"
Italian and vulgar Latin of the fifth century are identical in their sounds.
12:43 This is the internet, we do not do that here.
Mi dispiace che ti abbiano attaccato, sai l'ignorante è convintissimo di avere ragione. Continua così stai facendo un ottimo lavoro.
Grazie mille!
Metatron, love your distinction in ecclesiastical and classic Latin. As an amateur linguist, myself, (I've studied Koine Greek from Dr. Patricia Berkram) I've seen the differences between Attica Greek and Koine Greek and the accidence of the two languages.
Most of the Latin I've seen was ecclesiastical being born to the Catholic church. Later I studied Latin mottoes alongside Emblazon in the Society for Creative Anachronism. Percussus Resurgo
This video was quite interesting, particularly the method of reconstructing a dormant language.
I had kind of assumed that the Caesar of Rome would have been pronounced as Kaisar due to the Holy Roman Empire using that pronounciation for the German equivalent.
I was actually quite surprised in an earlier video where you brought up Ecclesiastical Latin and it's equivalent pronounciation as I wasn't aware of Ecclesiastical Latin before then.
I've been to a town in Turkiye called Kayseri which settled the k sound for me. Greetings from South Africa
I am a classical singer, so I sing in Ecclesiastical Latin, and Italian, a lot. I do also sing in German. I am also a spiritual healer and I am interested in how a sound feels, how the pronunciation of a word changes its feeling or impact. (Although maybe it is ultimately down to how we say it, the emotion behind it, rather than pronunciation).
So my mind is blown listening to your video! I had never heard Classical Latin pronunciation before today!
What gives me some chills is how Cæsar sounds so similar to Kaiser. That puts a whole new slant on how I psychologically perceive a Roman emperor. Although obviously they were who they were, and people are multi faceted. I do associate the Italianate pronunciation with greater romance, passion and love; whereas I associate languages that feature more clipped consonants with law and order.
I don't know if this is just me!
I definitely want to hear more of all the different Classical pronunciations and absorb myself in the sound world, so I will check out your other video! Thank you!
My preference is Classical Latin. I just found your channel today and your work is awesome! Thanks a lot!
Ave, Metatron! Grazie per un altro video splendido. An Italian raised in an Anglophone country, I prefer the classical pronunciation of Latin as long as the "r" is rolled.
Ma che POTERI MAGICI hai, Metatron?
No perchè ho malsopportato 5 anni di latino al liceo e invece adesso mi ritrovo a esultare di gioia nel leggere il titolo di questo nuovo video: "OOOOOH... INTERESSANTE!!!!".
Mannaggia a te!!! :D :D :D
ps. grazie! ;)
The one thing that's always been interesting to me is that even though I studied Latin for four years, and all those years I was only learning the classical pronunciation, I can still pretty easily understand someone who's speaking ecclesiastical Latin. It's kinda like listening to it in a different accent to me.
I've noticed the same effect, just from the other side. I've been learning ecclesiastical Latin for about six years now, and I've found that I can effortlessly switch to classical even though I rarely use it.
Enjoyed this video and learned ALOT. As a transplanted Catholic of Italian ancestry, I have new appreciation for thinking about classical and ecclesiastical latin. This is why I love youtube and your channel - learning is eternal
thanks for that explains much to me i am 70 but never too old to learn new/ historical things thanks for the info an Italian telling me things about the English language i never knew.
Language is fascinating, the way we humans express our thoughts through words.
I really enjoyed this video. It made me reflect on how I pronounce things in different languages. Please make more content on reconstruction/changes. However, I got one little problem with the reconstructions:
For instance if someone speaks German and writes it accordingly like this: _Isz nix drunter_ it does by no means indicate that the majority pronounced things like that. On the other hand writing it _es ist nichts darunter_ doesn't prove that the majority pronounces every syllable correctly.
A much better indication are puns and rhymes. E.g. when someone rhymes _mood_ with _blood_.
Come al solito mi dai motivazione per i miei studi classici, anzi mi permetti di approfondirli senza che siano pesanti. .
Ciao Metatron! Ti ho scoperto per caso qualche giorno fa per caso e volevo dirti che il tuo canale è fantastico! Continua così. Probabilmente hai un pubblico molto internazionale e sei poco conosciuto presso gli italiani.
I have almost no exposure to Latin. Listening to you, I would have to go with classical.
True Roman pronunciation for true Romans.
XYU The language survived through catholic liturgy and chori till nowadays, it didnt survive through a bunch of intellectuals who think they can revive the exact pronunciation from comparisons or some shit.
This can only come from people who have no idea neither about Latin nor about historical linguistics :-) There is nothing like a "true Roman", there were different ways Latin was spoken.
“True roman bread for true Romans.”
@@MusaPedestris Salve, amica. I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about there being "no such thing as a true Roman". The original Romans were the very Indo-European Latin stock of that specific area of Italy. The ruling class of Rome was distinct from the peoples it ruled on the Italian peninsula, who were not Indo-European but still Caucasoid nonetheless. The Romans had a tendency to blondism, red hair, blue eyes and fair or ruddy skin. Very Roman characteristics, for those who think the typical Roman was olive-skinned (more of an Etruscan, Sardinian or Southern Italic trait). At least about 10-20 or so Emperors were either light eyed or blondish or both.
I do agree that there were many different ways of pronouncing Latin through the centuries. However, Classical and Ecclesiastical pronunciations are the only ones that are intelligible to modern ears, and therefore standards, because if people were to hear the way Latin was spoken by rustic folk even in Classical times, or in the 5th century AD, they would have a hard time understanding.
@@MusaPedestris woosh
I really enjoyed your video. You are a natural born teacher!
I also would think there are differences between Ecclesiastical Latin and late Byzantine Empire Latin. As well as between Latin from the time of Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, the time of Augustus and say the time Constantine. If you think it that way, then there's a time frame of over 2000 years active use of Latin, and no one would assume its even remotely the same. Good video
I think there is evidence of (e g.) palatalization of c before front vowels by 450 C.E. (CIL VIII 21801 [or CIL XIV 2165] "intcitamento" for "incitamento").
Excellent. I do love the way you provide such a detailed and descriptive way of proving your points. I do not understand why someone would criticize your comments or the way you pronounce words. You are a scholar and (even though you are still doing research) know what you are talking about. But, there will always be those who feel they know best even though they do not have the knowledge to back up their negative comments. Continue on providing the knowledge you have learned. It helps those of us who love history and all things historical. Speech is about as historical as you can get. The development of languages has come a long way. The English I learned to speak as a child in the Southern United States is very different than what you learned as when you lived in England. Yet with the advent of modern television and now with UA-cam and other internet videos, it is evolving into a much more readily understandable language world wide. Thank you, and have a great day.
How do you manage to keep up with the upload regime is beyond me, still i get excited whenever i see that you have a new video :D
And yesterday I taught 5 hours of language lessons too :D ahah
Haha my comment liked by the great Metatron himself, i feel honored :D You are a machine man, keep it up!
Amazing video as well, i wanted to ask , although it may sound silly because i don't know much latin, but trying to understand languages, i found a lot of letters are not pronounced in the western world, unlike in eastern europe where i am from. I was wondering if something like this was happening with the classical latin.
For example, for me personally (im no expert by any means), it would sort of make sense that the "s" at the end of some words or names was not even pronounced or it was very quiet. Try it out it ,sounds kind of cool, but i want to know if there is this would even make sense to you or if there some basis to this theory. Thanks :)
You cleared up a lot of things for me, thank you!
Could you make a video about why vulgar latin (or Proto - Romance) differs so much grammatically from classical latin? Their grammars seem so different where it's just surprising to know those languages are related.
You impresse me with how many videos you put out so fast :D
Would love a video like this about the Greek language about Ancient Greek, Koine, Byzantine and that, as I understand it is even more of a mess there when it comes to understanding what is what and why.
Your Classical Latin is excellent, and you're an excellent teacher as well.
Nice video :)
I personally prefer the pronuntia restituta, IMHO it sounds way better especially with the classical works.
Nice new place where you record too :)!
Metatron is the reason why i'm learning classical Latin, he made me fall in love with Rome.
Your videos are great.
Hey Metatron, here's a video idea for you; predictions of what the languages you speak might sound like centuries from now.
I really hope you did not consider my comment in the other video an attack, it would be a first time in many many years of internet :) And you are the last one to deserve such attack. As I wrote I just wanted to stimulate a clarification as you promptly did. Really thank you. The suggestion to put in the actual context the pronunciation is a valid one. Said that i will continue my research, I want to find also how the "evidences" and their logic of deduction from the other party (the ones that say that even with its centuries long evolution some pronunciations are not like reconstructed by the methods you described) are confuted.
Here in ex-Yugoslavia we are taught ecclesiastical in high school and both ecclesiastical and classical in university. What surprises me here, though, is your pronunciation of C in ecclesiastical latin. We do not pronounce it as the soft "ch" sound you demonstrated, but rather like the "zz" in pizza, or "ts" in tsunami. In the ecclesiastical pronunciation, as we are taught, Caesar is pronounced like "Tse-zar", not "Che-zar". Maybe the way you presented is a product of a specifically italian development of ecclesiastical/vulgar latin? Or maybe our way is adapted to the slavic languages?
When I took Latin in Canadian public school in the 1960s we were taught the classical pronociation which makes sense since much of the reading material was by classical speaking authors like Caesar. As I understand it speach and retoric was a significant part of Roman upper class education. The pronouciation of Gordon would vary by where it was being spoken. In Canada you would not make that mistake. Canadians in many words pronounce ou as a diphthong such as in about which Americans mistakenly think sounds like aboot but to Canadians it sounds nothing like that. There was research in Japan that suggested that if a baby does not hear a sound in the spoken language it hears it looses the ability to differentiate it.
I will love to see a video about how many variations of Latin exist.
A propos, the proper pronounciation of the word CAESAR with the diphthong "ay" is also preserved as a loanword in few languages. This pronounciation can be found for example in Arabic "qaysar" (قيصر), which stands for caesar or emperor same goes for Hebrew "qeysar " (קיסר). Propably there are more languages that preserved this pronounciation, but the only I know about are Arabic and Hebrew. This is the way linguists can base on their ideas about the ancient pronounciation of the words in Latin and other ancient languages. Loanword is the keyword here.
Tomorrow I'll be doing an exam in Latin. I'm afraid but I won't be defeated! :D Wish me luck, noble ones!
Thank you for an interesting video.
Thx for sharing you knowledge, learned alot from your videos ! Kind regards.
Thank you thank you. I don't have a preference for either Latin...only an emotional ' I love it and that because you try to avoid rigid thinking I am so so honoured to be able to learn from you.
What's wrong with rigid thinking?
Prefer? Classical, classical, classical!
Could you do a similar video to Koine vs Attic Greek? Also, when I attended a Christian university, I studied Classical Latin (although we pronounced V's as V's, not U's), but Koine Greek. This could be due to different teachers of each, but I thought it was strange.
Yes please.
interessante ed educativo come sempre
Your content is just awesome!
Thank you very much!
Fascinating, thanks - very interested to have heard how mistakes can aid in research and learning.
Yes it does and from caesar derived zar too
Awesome vid, Rafa. Hey, can you make a video telling more about the greek language for us? I find greek very interesting.
this might be weird but i love your intro music! could tell what it is and where to find it? also fantastic video please do some more on Latin Italian etc....
I've also heard from others that we also know how it sounded by the critque left behind by ancient Romans on the spelling changes of dialects and on vulgar latin.
Dutch (Nederlands) has quite a few Latin words and expressions, like 'keizer' (Caesar) etc. comparing your teachings we pronounce them closer to classical Latin.
Ja inderdaad, mee eens
I don't speak either version of Latin, but I prefer the sound of classical just from what you have described here.
Very interesting. I would only add that there are varieties of pronunciation for ecclesiastical Latin as well. For example, in the Middle Ages ecclesiastical Latin, as spoken in the British Isles, was something closer to what we would call "Legal Latin."
Metatron, I love your closing music. Where can I get a complete version?
I personally prefer the method that upsets people the most , because people love nothing more than to complain & whine.
Just make sure you pronounce "Karen" the correct way !
I prefer classical Latin. I think it sounds better.
And classical music
Yes, and metal, neoclassical metal \m/.
Ken MacMillan \m/
Rhapsody of Fire?
Never heard of them but listening to them now. They sound good.
Bel video! Devo dire che hai trattato la questione, molto delicata, in modo preciso ed efficace, seppur sinteticamente. Comunque, in caso tu non lo sappia già, quella che comunemente è chiamata “pronuncia classica” o “classical pronunciation” non è, in realtà, la pronuncia più dettagliata e completa del latino d’età classica; infatti essa deriva da una semplificazione abbastanza significativa di quella che è conosciuta in àmbito accademico come “pronuncia ricostruita” (restored classical pronunciation) e che - questa sì - riesce a rappresentare con notevole precisione quella che doveva essere la pronuncia del latino parlato dal ceto istruito nel periodo classico. Tanto per farti un esempio di un elemento di questa pronuncia non presente nella pronuncia classica, sappiamo quasi con assoluta certezza che le -m finali di parola non fossero più pronunciate, ma causassero, invece, la nasalizzazione della vocale precedente (fenomeno il cui inizio è da rintracciarsi già nel periodo arcaico, vd. in alcune iscrizioni VIRO per VIROM, forma arcaica di “virum”). Anche alcune vocali, come la i e la u brevi, suonavano in maniera diversa da come sono pronunciate in italiano (la i breve era molto simile alla i inglese di “pit”, mentre la u breve era più o meno come la u di “put” o il digramma oo in “good”). In caso tu volessi approfondire la questione ed imparare una pronuncia ancora più precisa e vicina a quella che doveva essere di Cesare o Cicerone, ti consiglio di cercare il PDF di Vox Latina, trattato molto importante per tali studî, in inglese, scritto da W.S. Allen ed edito dalla Cambridge University Press (il PDF posso facilmente mandartelo per mail).
Brilliant, enjoyed very much
Grazie, questo video mi ha chiarito diverse cose..
Video molto interessante! Metatron, io ho sentito parlare poco tempo fa di alcuni graffiti risalenti all'epoca Imperiale (se non erro) che hanno permesso di ricostruire la pronuncia del latino contemporaneo proprio grazie allo stesso tipo di errori commessi di cui tu hai parlato, ne eri a conoscenza anche tu, suppongo?
Sempre grande, continua così!😁
This was very useful. I find this topic fascinating.
In my country, in high school we learned something completely different. We were taught that in classical latin it's pronounced /kaisar/ (like in old latin), and in ecclesiastical /tsezar/ (with c, not tʃ, and z, not s). So, neither was correct! I will investigate further, but I guess at university level it should be better.
C - you too? I think I can guess roughly WHERE you were taught. xD
"c" like a "tz" is the modern German way of pronouncing Ecclesistical. The pope actually spoke about it and asked all Catholic countries to stick to Rome Italian pronunciation of the "c"
You are absolutely right, Metraton, on the other hand this is not just your speculations about such differences, I remember reading this in old Latin textbooks, so if people say you're wrong it's just their fault, they're are ignorant!
Good video! Yeah, I know that! Some Italians criticized my videos because I use the classical pronunciation. They don't consider that there are different ways of pronouncing Latin and think there's only one true method. Beautiful British English, by the way! :-) It seems to be that you're fluent in Italian, too?
He is italian
Sorry, this is pretty off topic, and it's a bit later than the time period you usually cover, but I was just thinking about late 18th century to Napoleonic era naval combat, which featured fairly regular boarding actions and subsequent hand to hand combat. Why was armor not (to my knowledge) used in these cases? I understand not carrying enough to equip the whole ship's company, but surely officers could easily afford and stow at least a mail shirt and helmet. Thanks!
i'm italian and my teacher when she was first introducing my class to Latin told us about classical latin and how it is pronounced and that we were going to use the ecclesistical pronunciation. I think every teacher does that, those who told you were ignorant I guess were the ones who didn't care at all about the subject at School and the only thing they knew was how to read "ae"
May I ask, can you make a video about your opinion with Google translations; since when you said “The Germans and the Greeks said Caesar with a hard c and not a soft c” made me checked and most of the translations, thus I did not do all, but mostly said Caesar with the soft c except Greek.
I love classical Latin. Such an interesting topic. Thank you.
Metatron, I have begun utilizing transparent language to learn Latin. I'm doing OK with it. I am in the United States or in Okinawa, Japan at any given moment. I don't have the luxury to meet people to practice. Any advise on how to learn either version. For example; when I was a child I had a kids book with pictures and a teacher in Puerto Rico thought me how to read, write and speak in Spanish; I was in second grade. Can you advise of any kids references (i.e. texts, books and videos) that can use to aid me in my literacy and conversational skills with the language? Perhaps the material being used in the Italian school system?
I would say it should depend on what the author would have used. Using the same pronunciation set for the writings of Cicero as for, say, those of Bernard of Clairvaux would just seem off.
Honestly i like both
if im talking in an informal or more common folk context ecclesiastical pronunciation
if im talking about official and to nobles i will always use classical
I mostly care about Latin in the Roman context, and have never had anyone teach me ecclesiastical pronunciation. Curiously, aside from being more interesting, I also consider the classic way considerably easier for a Finnish speaker to pick up. A lot of it comes very naturally.
That's incredibly interesting, as I find the ecclesiastical alot easier. I speak Italian, Spanish, and English, and for some reason I find ecclesiastical much simpler. I can see how the classical has so much in common with Finnish, german, Dutch, etc.
Gotta love how language is just a constant changing thing!
Anakin Skywalker I speak English and I’m learning Spanish and Classical Latin. I’ve barely starting learning Latin and I’ve already seen and heard so many connections it has with French, Spanish, and a little bit of English so far.
This was really interesting! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Latin pronounciation that is taught in high schools, for instance, depends a lot on what country you're from and what sounds you have in your language. I watched a video made by a native English speaker and your video speaking Latin you made some time ago and honestly there are a bunch of differences in pronounciation that I found compared to how you both pronounced it and to how I was taught to read Latin. We'd never say "Cesar" with the "ch" sound because it's pronounced with a "ts" sound in our native language (ooor we could read it with a "k" if we're really trying xD). I understand it's probably wrong but I'm talking about studying Latin for a few months, nothing too advanced and complicated, more like a basic course on the language's grammar. I expect that if one is studying Classical Studies they'd go into pronounciation in depth and not just adopt the sound of their mother tongue when reading Latin.
Man coming back to watch this video, super awesome to watch, I prefer and study classical latin
Gratias Metatroni ago ob pelliculam optimam. Consentio, non decorum est de enuntiatione conqueri. Tamen, velim plus discipulorum Latinae loqui cum enuntiatione Classica.
I needed this refresher
To answer your question you should read a text in both classical and ecclesiastic Latin to compare.
Hi. I am from Iran and Cesar is written سزار and pronounced Sezar.
In response to your question, I should say I'm a fan of ancient languages so I prefer Classical but man pronouncing C like Ch seems way cooler :)
About a month ago you did a video about knife fights. I'm sorry if this has nothing to do with this video, but where do you get the chainmail from? I live in Italy as well, close to Milan, and I'm really interested in getting one for obvious reasons. I'd appreciate it a lot if you could answer. Great videos by the way, I love them. One of the best English-speaking Italians right here
Question. What pronunciation is used by modern day protestants who read, say, Calvin or other Reformed or Protestant Latin Texts. Do they still use the Ecclesiastical style or Classical style?
Hi Metatron!
I just want to ask, how should we pronounce magna cum laude? Should we follow Classical Latin or Ecclesiastical?
Personally, if Classical Latin is the form of Latin used in universities we should pronounce it as (mag-na) and not (maña) like Ecclesiastical would put it.
Hope you can shed light to this.
Thank you and more power!
PS.
I really love your hair.
Thanks for your interesting videos, Metatron! I've got a few questions about s and x in ecclesiastical Latin.
1. I've seen ecclesiastical Latin pronunciation guides which mention that the intervocalic s is pronounced as a z. I've been studying Latin for a few years and have switched from the classical pronunciation to Modern/Ecclesiastical for fun. I've heard several speakers of ecclesiastical Latin pronounce the intervocalic s as a z and others who do not. What's your preference? Is this influenced by where in Italy you are from? I watched your video about the differences between Northern/Southern Italian.
2. I've read Latin pronunciation guides which mention that ex followed by a vowel or h in ecclesiastical Latin is pronounced as 'egz' instead of 'eks' in words like exaudi. Is this true for most Italian speakers of Latin or does the egz/eks choice depend on clear regional differences? What is your preference?
Gratias tibi ago!
Hi,
As far as I understand, the way that classical latin was pronounce is not known for sure, there are only logical deductions or there is a writen document from that period stating the classical latin phonetics ?
Logical decuctions is all we have at the moment
Ok, thanks
Metatron
Don't we have treatises from Roman grammarians ?
There are descriptions by Roman writers about the various sounds, so it isn't just logical deductions.
Thank you for your information Equationist, I will look forward to find more about the subject.
Very good video. I can vouch for this information with my five and a half year education on Latin. Don't ask me to translate anything, though. I have enough trouble tutoring my brother
fun fact - traditional church latin is different here ( Croatia) and closer to Croatian pronunciation of letters c or g for example ( classical used in schools though). Wonder about other countries.
Can you post an example of that please? I've been trying to find recordings of church Latin from different countries
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this. I'm looking into learning Latin right now and I'm wondering if you think it would make a big difference which of these two I learn if I might be mingling between people who prefer either one.
I get the impression that the differences are not too significant and that someone who knows one would be able to speak with and understand someone who knows the other but they would hear each other's accents. Comparable to how someone with a German accent might speak English with the common mispronouncing of W as V as well as S as Z, among other notable differences that do not prevent or significantly hinder communication. Is that accurate?
Just the first few seconds of you actually talking about pronunciations and I already learned something.. I always thought Caeser was just pronounced "Seezer" But then, I guess that's just an English pronunciation for a Latin word.
Don't necessarily have preference but I know all languages change over time and what were regional dialects can become new languages that may have a certain level of intelligibility with one another (like Germanic or Romance languages). I don't think one is necessarily more correct than another but rather that the construct of the language changes with the people that speak it. I am currently focusing on Classical Latin as it is the tools for learning are very abundant but I have every intention of looking/sounding as many of the different forms of Latin as I can. I think ultimately I will focus on Vulgar Latin however mainly as a way of understanding how Romance has come to be
I was taught Classical Latin. When I read Catholic prayers, I say them in Classical, which no doubt sounds strange. However, in reading prayers to the Roman Gods, I expect I sound right. By the way, is "Venus" declined as a masculine noun (i.e. Is there a vocative "Vene"?)?
I like the ae sound and I am used to it because in Spain teachers don't have those problems.
But I also love the v sound as a Romanian I am used to it speaking Romanian.
Sooo... I don't like hearing "facta non uerba" instead of "facta non verba" am I crazy? Caesar sounds nice to me but not uici. Why can't we use both? Oh fortuna.
Do you know any dialect which combines both?
Or I'll have to create my very own perfect cool sounding Latin modern dialect...
I think the pronunciation should be based on from where the quote is from, for example if youre quoting romans, you should use the classic pronunciation, if youre quoting the pope or something, then the ecclesiastical pronunciation