Let's Talk about Procedural Generation
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- Опубліковано 21 вер 2024
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Longer Description:
We've been making a survival meets automation game called Atrio: The Dark Wild in the Unity Game Engine for the last 3.5 years. It's kind of like factorio meets don't starve, maybe a little bit of Minecraft, and it's finally coming out on Steam this August 10, 2021. And don't forget, if you buy the game on release, you'll get the live laugh love item! Don't miss out. We've introduced a new creatured called the pickerpal that automatically picks up plans for you
About:
Hey! We're Isto Inc., a three-man team working on our survival meets automation game, Atrio: The Dark Wild. This is our vlog where we show off the progress. We typically try to post once a month, but don't quote me on that
Check out my other videos:
IstoInc - Atrio: The Dark Wild - Official Launch Trailer (Early Access)
• Atrio: The Dark Wild -...
IstoInc - I'm Being Sued By This Streamer
• I'm Being Sued By This...
IstoInc - 3 Years of Unity Game Development - Atrio
• 3 Years of Unity Game ...
#devlog #unity #indiegame #madewithunity #unity2d #indiedev #istoinc #gamedev #atrio
i kinda missed the point where you point out why your game isnt exactly as boring as no mans sky.. looks pretty much the same endless mining grind..
One option is to use the procedural stuff to fill the gaps. That’s true. Another alternative is to figure out how your game generates meaning and then generate meaning. Understanding story arcs like “Safe the Cat” is where I’m thinking to go exploring next. If you can create events randomly that generate experiences in such an order for the player, then the player might interpret them as meaningful, even though they are all generated and there are trillions more out there in the generator.
the only way to have a truly replayable game, that stays relevant, is to have procedurally generated content. games nowadays only focus on graphics and mediocre story writing but fail when it comes to creating interesting mechanics and scripts
terraria is still being played, minecraft still being played, starsector is really popular still as well. your average little story game or AAA game only stays relevant for about a year, at most 4 years.
Go even a level further with a systemic approach. Use data from simulations, such as climate, or even player input to feed into your procedural framework. Simple example: Generate a forest and create a rule which will block vegetation from placement. Collect data from players and how they traverse your world, create a heatmap and use that as input. The results will be excluded vegetation where players traverse very often, aka a path through the forest. You want to create replayability? Use data, which is generated by players themself, while they play your game. Another example: Use data simulated based on the terrain, including steepness, roughness etc. Allow players to change terrain, and use those changes as the new input for your simulation = the whole world will react to what the player does.
Procedural generation is a tool, and does nothing spectacular on its own. It just places things. The magic arrives with the framework of rules and data.
The player doesn't care how the content is created; he cares whether the content is interesting.
In Dwarf Fortress, I would argue procedural generation is a mechanic. Like you said, pretty much everything is procedurally generated, including the lore and dungeons and all that, so you can still find cool things like that pot. (not actually a giant pot I don't think but you get the idea)
I think it's moreso the History Generation that is more important. You can always generate a map, but you can't generate entire history. Speaking of which, funfact, DwarfFortress generate its history by using a GameMaster rather than pure random gen.
These videos are awesome! I know alot about procedural generation, because I've made multiple Terraria-like prototypes, and I'm currently working on a top down ASCII / ANSI roguelike :)
I just discovered your channel and you're criminally underrated.
You know what else is criminally underrated?
Atrio: The Dark Wild, which you should definitely go check out and wishlist on Steam.
What I like about generated worlds is the replayability - if the game's foundation is strong. Like, a game of civilization is always different. You have to use your skill to figure out how to proceed instead of memorizing a handcrafted world. True, the trade off is generated content isn't as finely crafted. I
Great video! I found your channel back in 2020 and to see how the game has progressed has been super neat. Best of luck with the new update
The funny thing is - you can in theory create stories and characters procedural.. Its all well discovered, the story circles.. they rise and fall of civilizations.. you could just take a coordinate pair + time and generate it all from there.. quests.. characters.. go full dwarf fortress..
I think one misconception here (specially around the elden ring metaphor bit) is that procedural generation can't create memorable adventures. Procedural generation that iterates on itself with rules can ABSOLUTELY make interesting situations, it just needs to be done right. A procedural adventure could start with a gate locked behind a random code, which players look at for a bit, then leave. Later, they may find a randomized note which has been made to sync with said randomized gate. If a player realizes this and opens the door, they may find a reward, or a challenge. Maybe it's been overgrown, infected, or perhaps it just contains a clue to another secret.
Maybe a procedural generation system that simulates, iteration-by-iteration, natural disasters. So a player might see how a meteor's crater scorched down the earth, but that heavy rainfall drowned the fires and grass is starting to regrow.
My favorite game is called Delver. A lot of what happens is procedurally generated but the content is fresh almost every time. Another game that's kind of like Delver is Slasher's Keep. And uses procedural generation for everything practically in the entire game however, The combat mechanics are so silly and fun that you don't realize you're seeing the same 40 or 50 textures and 10 or 20 enemies repeatedly.
I think you're completely wrong, PG can create varied, unique experiences. It just takes more effort on the developer's part. The Wave Function Collapse used in Unity (and other engines) can create a virtually infinite range of conditions. You just have to take the time to define those conditions. The exact same tool you used to control resource spawning can control anything from buildings, to plants, to events. You can add more layers to give more options. So maybe you have certain animals prefer certain plants. Since those plants grow in certain conditions, you now see different types of animals in different areas. Use a noise "layer" as a rainfall map to determine what plants grow where. Use another map to blend different terrain algorithms so you don't have an entire planet of rolling hills. I know they can procedurally generate cities, can't be that hard to define different architectural styles for different regions. Even with handcrafted stuff, you can procedurally determine where to place it.
I'm not saying any of this is necessarily easy. I'm just saying that the problem isn't PG.
procedural generation can absolutely be a game mechanic, since the basis of the generation is based off an input, if the player is the one that inputs something, procedurally generated gameplay is definitely possible, like how octodad uses procedurally generated arm movement to control the character, who knows what may be created in the future with it
I have a personal obsession with RNG and procedural generation in games, i love randomness because i am indecisive and these systems are great for ppl like me, ARPGs, looters and roguelites are my favorite genres to play
Yeah, Procedural Generation is a tool that can complement a good experience for games when executed right, usually with games that make obstacles like Deep Rock Galactic use it to generate maps from pieces to provide obstacles to your objectives, which can only be overcome completely with a coordinated team, with Rimworld it's the inhabitants and events, most recently a game I played called Shadows of Doubt uses it to generate crimes and the city they take place.
It certainly enhances the experience by offering some unpredictability as how things may turn out, making it more difficulty depending on the gameplay, or good for sightseeing in games like No Man's Sky and Starfield.
You mentioned Dwarf Fortress, which is a story generator game. The game is entirely procedural but it trusts the mind of the player to create a story from the pieces they've been given. I think the main difference between Dwarf Fortress and No Man's Sky is that every generated NPC in Dwarf Fortress has a personality, thoughts, goals, emotions, flaws, and so on. The characters are complex and so their actions are complex, which makes interacting with them so interesting. The NPCs and animals in No Man's Sky are barely interactable so there's not much story for our minds to create.
It's just an interface, with user input triggering sub routines, which activate further sub routines, so on and so forth, with the subroutines being used to develop the world around the choices, playstyle, focus, stuff like that of the user.
I think, in manufacturing, you could take neural scans of people, and procedurally generate customized objects and machines and vehicles for individuals based on their personality and life experiences...
Really liked the Elden Ring example. Interesting new video type.
I'm sorry but it can definitely be used as a game mechanic, think outside the box.
just found your channel - you should have way more views. You give me Mark Rober vibes with the way you present and your videos are edited really well - awesome
I do think that people obsess a little too much on what procedural generation can do, especially for myself, but I feel like when people create stuff procedurally, they take it in a way where it's uninspiring, like I think there are still ways to make procedurally generated content better in a way where it feels like every time you play, it genuinely adds something to the gameplay experience that feels almost the same as a handcrafted experience.
The only issue with this thinking is just because no one has done it, doesn't mean that it should be done, like at what lengths do I go to create a truly procedural experience that doesn't remove the handcrafted-ness of something purposely done by hand. So far, I haven't seen any games push the boundaries of what procedural content can do.
For myself, I'm planning to do something that relates to story telling and gameplay chunks like Spelunky, but since no one has done it before, I think the hard part is to just break that barrier. Thank you for the video about this topic and also if you read this far, thank you as well
You’re welcome, great commentary!
Awesome video. Procedural generation is great and it's cool to see how you're using it in your game!
idk if this helps but Crashlands would be a good example for the generation
Oooooh true!!
Technically when you fill an area in photoshop (or any other painting program since forever and a day) using a "paint bucket" you're using procedural generation. :P
When games companies say they made an infinite universe yet all they have is a terminal that prints hello world.
Procedural generation isn't a game mechanic, it's a game designer's mechanic.
yes its a game mechanic
minecraft uses procedural generation AS A FEATURE, same with no man's sky
wake up babe new atrio vlog just dropped
procedural games feel like there wasn't put any love in them because it's just generated and not placed by hand.
All that said, witht he evolution of modern AI we will in future have Neural NEtwork systems creating content on the fly for these games and we will have a much more interesting content.
Agreed. Unique experiences like in Elden Ring need to be thoughtout. Procedural generation is a great tool as you said but not the panacea of game development. Also ... man how...much...time ... did you spend recording that Elden Ring walkthrough to the giant pot? O.O
SO LONG and editing it down to 6 seconds took eeeeeeven longer. But it was worth it
in 1994 i wrote the? first lyrical procedural music engine. i do games and stuff.
the marketplace doesn't necessarily have terms for talking about media without valuing commerce, which limits your concept of a valid experience. we, me and others, can't really talk about it yet because valuing commerce means holding an ideal that games always equal entertainment and that entertainment (and thereby consumerism) is always valid. it's not.
Great video!
Procedurally generated compliment: very good video!
YES IT IS
I think procedure gen would be the best for creating complex landscape before the designer decides to keep that or not,it should only be 20% of the creation of the map.But is not it obvious that procedure gen map only for sandbox games?
I am completely obsessed with procedural generation. Pretty much every project I make now has to include it in some form.
Do animal rights excist in Atrio?Just a question for worldbuilding...
SCP: Contaiment Breach uses this in a very interesting way.
It's a facility with a procedually generated layout. The rooms are the same, but their placement is always different. This is excelent when playing a scary game since every time you play it, you will have a different experience.
Most scary games don't have good replay value since, once you beat them, the surprise factor is gone and you know how to beat the game in a specific manner.
But, in SCP: CB, even though you can learn the conditions to win the game with enough time, the game is still very unpredictable, which makes it scary since you WILL get caught off-guard from something you don't expect.
L4D approach is not procedural generated. It is a game design approach called "Director".
im so glad they did actually make the game good tho :) its fun now
Couldn’t disagree more
From what game is that turtle-like monster 0:42-0:43.
Procedurally generate my procedural generation please
You are about to wage war against him , why should he say anything ?
there is a place for procedural generation and the core feature of the game isn't that place.
so
xD
Well yeah, any game developer can tell you that Procedural Generation is a tool. Everyone forgets that procedural generation is practically coding a machine to do your work for you. Unfortunately, we're not all geniuses in the art of designing creative thinking AI so that everything (such as in art) isn't so... logical and bland.
Procedurally generated is not randomly generated, the developers still have to create each individual asset, so if anything its more work and anything but lazy, theres an entire genre based on procedural generation, roguelikes are incredibly popular nowadays and these games would be incredibly boring with this GAME MECHANIC, imagone playing through a roguelike with the same maps, same enemies and same item drops every time you play, the genre would have died years ago, theres a reason why arpgs, looter shooters and roguelikes are among the most popular genres now, its because of variety, diversity and infinite replayability, hades winning every award there was to win in 2020 is proof that procedural generation isnt going anywhere and is a great system to use, Especially for indie developers with limited budgets
i really loved the video but the elden ring example felt off as it was mostly an example of manual game design leading players to disappointment rather than an exciting secret that a robot could never have put together on its own.
It is a Generation mechanic. Bye.
To me, procedural generation is almost never something to brag about. It's a cool tool, not something to whip out and pretend it makes your game good.
NMS interesting procedural creation of words (interesting, not astounding) but terrible gameloop...
The updates only added alternative gameloops, the problem is they are only at the superficial lvl, the maingame loop feels the same uninspiring and retetitive content from the minute one... It wouldnt be that bad if the game had enough deep at least the first hours, and the procedural elements could get seen like "a bonus to invest more time in the game" but the problems is they never added enough deep content...
There is people that says is more important the way than arriving at your destiny... but I guess this kind of people never have been 12h on a train looking to a desert outside... this is mostly the NMS experience.
So atrio is the game you made?
Yup!
@@isto_inc cool
Yipes. Scary to hear a successful game designer claim procedural generation can't provide you with unique experiences. While naming all the games where it does.
Ah, I remember that giant stupid Pot.. in Elden Ring.
I did the same damn thing you did.
That was such sh-tty game design.
The reason I say this, is b/c of how the rest of the game is set up, and they just decided to be REALLY different in this ONE particular thing..?!
Yeah it works out once you open up "fast travel"... but it's garbage until then.
why did you make this video it looks not thought out enough but good edit.
very interesting
hello neight developer
@@Dorbellprod hello doorbell producer
give me my brugs back...
I’m sorry. I don’t SPEAK BROKE MUHAHAHAHAHA
@@isto_inc ratio sadly...
cool
plz add linux support
if you're on steam it works just fine with proton, I'm playing it on pop os