I never imagined living in a timeline where I wouldn't just not care about Star Wars or Star Trek, but actively hate both properties and the people making them. And yet, here we are.
@@LawfulBased there are millions of things to do these days. I used to love both, but over the last decade of so, I moved on to indifference and now spend my free time playing video games . Its been years since I watched a new movie now too
May not have been an accident. Mike McMahan is a big fan of OG Trek (even Tawny Newsome is too). It could have been a very subversive jab since it happened in the very last episode of the show’s very last season. It certainly was at least a shot at the awful “Kling-orc” designs from Disco. If your show was getting the axe, why not take a parting shot?
It has been pointed out that 'Lower Decks' has been used a number of times to 'fix' various plot holes and continuity errors. The people in charge have said that 'Lower Decks' and these 'fixes' are absolutely canon. So it's quite possible this was no accident at all.
@@allthingsnerd.4484 it could also be that basically everyone, probably even Kurtzman, knows he's on the way out at the earliest possible opportunity... so why defend his failures? Kurtzman spent years pushing for a 'section 31' show and the best he could get was a direct to streaming one shot movie. Anyone who has any ambitions of working with Star Trek long term can read between the lines on that one : his 'timeline' is a lame duck, so time to push your alternatives
It was not mistake and sorry, but nothing has been decanonized. The Star Trek Multiverse was established in TNGs Season 7 episode "Parallels" where Worf jumps from one multiverse too another and each is slightly different. All that the Lower Decks episode shows is that there is at least one universe where the Klingorks exist in the TNG era. And if we took that as a sign that Discovery is in another timelime we would also have to assume that all other changes, e.g. the Cerritos changing into a Sovereign-class vessel, are from another timeline, meaning that Lower Decks itself can't be in the classic TNG timeline. And if Lower Decks is not in the TNG timeline than it doesn't matter that Discovery is not in the same timeline as ower Decks... Sorry, but that the decanonization of STD is wishful thinking with a dose of cherrypicking. The only real thing is Lower Decks writers kind of acknowledging how bad Discovery was by making the transformation something horrible happening to the Klingons.
6:45 Die-hard DS9 fan here. Garek and Bashir never had any s*xual tension, never. Bashir was quite overtly straight, and, frankly, with that show its unclear if Garek was ever actually Bashir's friend. Having the two of them kiss is Twilight-fanfic levels of stupid. Like having Worf and Riker kiss. If you think about it for more than 30 seconds, the issues go beyond the absurdity of it and start digging at the core of who those characters are, the relationships they've had with other characters, how they actually have viewed each other in the past, etc.
Andrew Robinson, in an interview, related that he would liked to have seen Garak be outright gay for Bashir. But this is a far cry from such a relationship being canon. I am glad that the show never went this direction. It's as cringe as the "K/S" fanfic out there.
@@monkeytime9851so the actors wanted something even though bit wouldn’t have been in accordance with the characters. Perhaps that’s why they’re paid to be dancing monkeys and nothing else
They'll never touch my dvd boxsets, star trek will always stay alive in my house. Everything that happened after those box sets is irrelevant, only 20th century counts.
Best of all, NO ONE can "improve" or "correct" your physical media. Too many movies, TV shows and other entertainment options are actively being destroyed. Or taken out. WB Discovery has a LOT of pissed off people who thought they had permanent ownership of shows they bought, thinking they were saving space in their homes, and having access to these shows on some streaming like service. I would rather have the clutter, and any time access to my favorites.
I watched it last night finally and I have to be honest, it felt really dull. I don’t think it was pointless and it did make me smile but it was just cringey enough to also make me laugh and I feel bad about that.
Sorry, in this case your analogy doesn't stand. Stewart had a lot of artistic input into the direction of the Picard series as well as how the character of Picard was developed from that point. I get that you like and respect Patrick Stewart, but he holds some responsibility in regard to the poor direction and performance of season one and two of Picard.@@kathleenhensley5951
@@kathleenhensley5951 I read that he had a lot of input into how his character acted. He was pissed off about Brexit and Trump and took it out on the rest of us with is crappy story.
The 3rd season was bursting with fan service so I enjoyed it mostly. The first 2 seasons were garbage. Honestly, they could have stretched the 3rd season into more episodes
Even in the later years Voy an Ent could still hit you with some deep quintessential Trek. Zero of the new shows have any of that hopefulness, problem solving, or moral dilemma, just vapid flashy bullshit that means nothing.
@moffant4916 I found it kind of fitting. Being as the entire show was trying to show the struggles of becoming a space fairing civilization. What can go wrong will go wrong. It isn't quite the utopia future Star Trek is yet.
@GrandAdmThrawn. I won't rewatch the last episode of the Enterprise. Once they mindlessly killed off Trip...I was like " SERIOUSLY???? WHAT THE HECK??!!!!
As much as I love the positive vision of the future Roddenberry designed, he was also a total pervert and would've added a lot more sexuality to Trek if the culture allowed it, including homosexuality.
After they ridiculed Gene Roddenberry by name on camera on STD I turned it off canceled my subscription to the streaming service and donated all my merchandise to the Salvation Army. After being a Trekker for 45 years it finally became dead to me with that straw.
@@gloriathomas3245 Funny given everyone hated him when he worked on TNG and when he was gone the show actually got good and everyone was happier. Gene's vision would of been boring BS nothingburgers. He wanted no conflicts between people, so in other words lame and boring.
09 was the death of Trek for me. I really disliked the J.J. Abrams movies. Everything afterward is just exceptionally bad fanfic. Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who. All the old cornerstones of geek culture was pummled to dust.
I thought that by Star Trek 3 they were almost able to make an okay movie. 1 and 2 had ridiculous plot. Compared to them, the average 3 felt almost Shakespearean.
Its what happens when opinionated, untalented nepo babies are just put in charge of shit. Just like all the other asslicker celebrities: your job is to entertain us, not deliver a sermon, no one cares what you think beyond the characters you play or crappy screenplays you write.
I have lived through the Birth and Death of Star Trek, never thought I'd see the day honestly. Same thing going on with Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Dr. Who, Super Hero Movies......... They sure are kicking the body to make sure there is no life left.
You make it sound like you're waiting on word from the Vatican. This is all just arbitrary legalese, dude. You're giving copywrite lawyers WAY too much power over your mindscape.
You make it sound like you're waiting to hear from a prophet. This is all arbitrary copyright legalese dude. Stop letting lawyers live rent-free in your head.
Hanlon's Razor is "do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity". Occam's Razor is "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one".
Occam was right but Hanlon was wrong. Evil is evil, whether it's done on purpose or by accident because of "stupidity". And it's exactly what an evil person would say to cover their tracks. Believing in Hanlon leaves you open to being abused. A kindergartener knows the difference between malice and stupidity.
It died when Rick Berman was no longer at the helm of the franchise and when Kurtzman took over for him. It was brought back to life by Terry Matalas, but died again when they axed him from making Star Trek Legacy. Kurtzman knows very little about this amazing franchise and cares so little about it but just won't loosen his grip on it, which is why Star Trek is limping along now.
@@garethmorgan8326 First ever I heard about Berman, it was a criticism that no one was opposing, so it was creating an impression a lot of people agree. Back then I didn't know so much about ST, so I thought all those people must know things I don't when they make such strong statements. So, I tried to learn more about who Rick Berman actually is and why is he so criticized. I read what decisions he made, why he made it, how it all works, and I still didn't understand why such strong criticism. So, believing I'm still missing something, I read more. Until I realized that I actually know more than many of those who criticize Berman so fiercely. I can talk about several things I think should have been done differently in ST, but generally speaking, Berman did the best job he could, given the circumstances. You cannot have a franchise shining if the top producer is bad. And Berman was the head of ST during its golden era. I think that says something. Gene Roddenberry picked Berman to be his successor. I think now Rick Berman should be involved in finding his own successor.
The franchise was going well stagnant under Rick Berman though too. After DS9 they just did more or less TNG re-treads with Voyager and Enterprise (neither worthless shows by any means, but it was getting laaaazyyyyy). Then JJ turned Star Trek into Star Wars, and then Star Wars into putrid garbage. Then his buddies turned Trek into more putrid garbage.
@@breach005 I agree. Involving Manny Cotto in the middle of ENT was the right decision that gave the show freshness. But Berman should have done this much much earlier. However, part of that stagnation was due to the studio that was pressuring Berman to recycle what was working before. That's why he, for example, prepared for Voyager some potentially thrilling themes like 1/3 of crew being Maquis, or ex-convict Tom Paris and then it all turned out to be just a happy family show.
I've loved Trek since I was a kid. I remember seeing Wrath of Khan and being blown away by how amazing it was. I went to conventions as it was so much fun. Now I can't bring myself to care. It just is so stupid, and it never seems to be trying to actually inspire us to be great. They all seem just preaching and crapping on the history.
Agreed. I discovered Trek in my mid 20's and feel like it truly made me a better person. I can't imagine what modern Trek is doing for people that's positive or life changing.
@@christopherbrooksoregonboy The first season was oookkk. Episode 1 of season 2 I realised it's just a bait n switch. It's just more Woke bullshit like STD.
I remember how Script Doctor said that in addition to giving Kurtzman a contract extension, Moonves also secretly sold him a piece of the rights as well. If that is true, then Moonves *REALLY* succeeded in killing Star Trek worse then we thought
If that is true, I'd LOVE to know where he got the money to purchase those rights from? Star Trek was a premium brand back then, so it wouldn't have been cheap, and Kurtzman doesn't strike me as someone with the financial resources to buy rights like those.
I don't know if it was Kurtzman, who was only a writer at the time of '09, but it's long been suggested that JJ Abrams has partial ownership. That's why even the recent rumors of a new Star Trek theatrical film (unrelated to the so-called Kelvinverse) mentioned him as being involved. They can't make it without him at this point, legally.
It's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it. It's life, Jim, but not as we know it not as we know it…Captain. Mr. Spock 🖖
The Firm:- "It's a franchise Jim but not as we know it. Not as we know it. Not as we know it. It's a franchise Jim but not as we know it, Jim; It's worse than that it's dead Jim. Dead, Jim. Dead, Jim. It's worse than that it's dead Jim. Dead, Jim. Dead....."
It's worse than the bit with Dave and Holly In Red Dwarf with Holly ending his long slightly differentiated very simple explanations/statements with a closing line that certainly applies to what Star Trek became. Holly: They're all dead. Everybody's dead, Dave. Lister: Peterson isn't, is he? Holly: Everybody's dead, Dave! Lister: Not Chen! Holly: Gordon Bennett! Yes, Chen. Everyone. Everybody's dead, Dave! Lister: Rimmer? Holly: He's dead, Dave. Everybody is dead. Everybody is dead, Dave. Lister: Wait. Are you trying to tell me everybody's dead? Holly: Should've never let him out in the first place....
I'm going to admit that Lower Decks was a guilty pleasure of mine, and the only Trek thing I've seen in years I enjoyed. Yes, it's basically just Rick and Morty with a Star Trek license... but I liked the first two seasons of Rick and Morty.
It's actually worrying that, Imo, the best of new Trek is the 2 animated series with Prodigy being a good "my first Trek" for kids, but also entertaining for adults. Lower Decks didn't hook me until the end of Season 1 with the "Sir, there's another Starship coming in".......but it isn't the Enterprise, it's the USS Titan! 😄
I think that ST Continues is in many aspects similar to Kurtzman Trek. (I certainly don't want to insult ST Continues.) It is a high-quality non-professional project with good costumes, sets and some skilled professionals involved, that like many fan films is still rather weak in acting and script. Considering this is just a passion project of some fans, this is very good result. Though still not a TV level quality. Kurtzman Trek is in a sense similar; a good costumes and sets (I'm not saying I like it, just acknowledging it wasn't cheap.), but also suffering from weak acting and script. So, also not a TV level quality.
@ I think the difference is the people who made STC are passionate and knowledgeable fans. I do consider that series as an actual fourth season in my head canon
The question to ask is: if they actually were trying to take these franchises down, what would they have done differently? If the answer is "nothing", there's your answer.
Star trek used to be a bold, exciting and hopeful image of human future..now it puts a mirror in front of current day society, media and writing and shows us a morally bankrupt system trying to suck out the last penny from the few 'fans' left.
Well, old Trek also put a mirror up to modern problems, but the difference is the writers actually had the talent to put it into a story that wasn't just a naked and opinionated sermon from these dickhead Hollyweirds, and/or a self-insert fantasy for the showrunner to justify their professional victimhood. Remember that time Riker caused an intergalactic incident because he was trying to bang an androgenous alien that wanted to have a recognized race in their own society? More than one like that in TNG that explores heavier topics like that, and DS9 too. But this was still entertaining television, while still delivering often a moral question to sit with. The new stuff just rams it down your throat with a battleship sized plunger
I just fell in love with Star Trek in the past 9 months. I started with DS9, and i just ended with TNG. I truly feel that it is my favorite group of shoes of all time. Modern Star trek is absolutely dog poop.
I keep remembering that Simpsons episode with Lisa trying to sell a Barbie doll to modern girls . The company sell just one , Lisa get happy because she could "save" ate least one girl , and all that Using the money from other people now that has a big money debt .
Star Trek lives on in the hearts of the ones who truly loved it. Share it with your kids, your family, your friends. We got six mostly excellent television shows, an uneven but largely enjoyable collection of movies, and a ton of tie-in novels, comics, and games. That’s a hell of a lot more than most franchises get. Trek is over, and the property will never move forward, but it will only truly be dead when we forget what made it special in the first place.
@breach005 🤣🤣🤣 I see what you did there with the Annorax reference. I think I know which TNG movies you're referring to; but I don't think they should be erased, but more like, rewritten. 🤔🤔
@@christopherbrooksoregonboy Really? Where everything is played for a laugh and no chain of command or discipline exists? I guess if you say so, but not my Trek
@993mike I've never watched SNW, but I've heard enough about it from various content creators on UA-cam to know it's not a good show. 🤔🤔 That musical episode though. Definitely a low-point. 😒😒
I'm somewhat ambivalent about the idea of getting Star [Trek, Wars] back onto some prior evolutionary track. We no longer have any _new_ shows in the sense of those franchises: all we get are rehashes of previous properties or content lifted from already-popular book series. None of it is original.
I don't think the talent exists to create quality TV writing anymore. For every Breaking Bad there are hundreds of garbage shows that die out after a season or two. Now AI is about to enter the field. The woke destruction of the entertainment industry has just turned me off watching altogether. I'm discovering other hobbies now.
Sorry, but the lack of originality has IMHO become a lame excuse. We have got 31 seasons of old trek (including TAS). Add to that 5 seasons of Babylon 5, ca. 15 seasons of Stargate and so on. Some thousand episodes. Add movies like Alien. Also add computer games (Picard season 1 reminded many of Mass Effect). Good luck writing a story that is truely original, that we haven't seen before. It may not be not impossible (see Nolans movies Tenet and Inception), but its very rare. If it is well written and entertaining I won't care that those X-wing flying through the trench of the Death Star are similar to Lancasters attacking a dam in Germany - or Tom Cruise flying an F/A-18 Hornet through a canyon to take out a nuclear facillty.
A good story teller can turn the unoriginal into something original. While all the originality in the world will not matter, if the one telling the story, cannot tell it well. A story might have been told before, but *who* is telling it matters most
My wife didn't really watch Start Trek when she was younger, so we're slowly watching Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and all the older movies. Great stuff, and honestly, there's so much of it there's no need to watch the newer stuff.
Gene Roddenberry's concept of a future to be aspired to - the kind of future that you'd want humanity to have - was what made Star Trek special. Combine that with infinite adventures exploring an infinite galaxy, and you've got something that should be hard to screw up. But (imho) you can see how things started to go off the rails as soon as Gene Roddenberry was no longer able to veto stuff (he had a stroke or something, iirc) Suddenly you had stuff he would never have okayed, like Shatner doing his "search for god" movie - a subject that Roddenberry didn't want anywhere near Star Trek - and a new TV series set on a space station _that didn't go anywhere_ rather than on a starship that arrives at a new world every episode. Of course shows like Voyager and Enterprise now look good, like "proper Trek," thanks to the dreck that came after them, but I can't honestly say I loved anything past TNG while those shows were actually aring. I struggled to ever give a toss for DS9, never really warmed to most of the Voyager cast, and thought making Enterprise a prequel was a terrible idea, espeically in a franchise that's all about boldly going forward into the future and exploring the unexplored.
I'm sick of hearing about "Occam's Razor"... James Forestall said to Joe McCarthy, "consistency has never been a mark of stupidity. If they were merely stupid, they would occasionally make a mistake in our favour." When was the last time they did anything in our favour??? Anywhere, in anything? It's ALL in one direction with EVERYTHING... media... politics... you name it...
Do you remember that companion chap in Doctor Who - can’t remember his name - who was nervous and unconfident and bit of a wimp and the girlfriend of Karen Gillan. And there was an episode where he was sent back in time and he spent a literal *thousand years* guarding Karen Gillan’s tomb, or something. And you thought, wow can’t wait to see how such an incomprehensible experience changes a man. Answer: they argue a bit for one episode and then he was back to normal.
Rory. There _is_ a character change, but it's much more subtle than it ought to be for such a big thing in his life. He becomes a lot more confident in himself, like when he faced an entire warfleet of cybermen on their own flagship just to demand information from them.
You forget that one movie where he fights a never-ending fight against the Cyber-men (I think), which given the current Dr Who episodes, makes absolutely no sense.
@danlucraft Eh. A few weeks ago I ran through a list of Matt Smith era episodes and came to the conclusion that I didn't think _any_ of them were stand-out good. I can understand not giving Moffat the benefit of the doubt.
Lower Decks should’ve continued. Who would have thought when we heard about a batch of new Trek series that I would’ve loved the animated comedy most of all of them?
Most people don't give a shit about Lower Decks?? Sorry Drinker, I generally agree with you, but you are way off base on that one sir. I know you didn't like it when it came out, but I'm going to recommend a re-watch - it turned into one of the most amazing Star Trek series and was a hugely enjoyable and entertaining show throughout its whole run. A huge number of people would dearly like to see it get more episodes.
In slight defense of Prodigy... Did Drinker or anybody in the panel EVER watch Prodigy S1 and S2, completely? It's like an animated show of Star Trek: Elite Force. I feel that Prodigy as a show is getting WAY too much flak from you guys who haven't seen it. "It's a kids (Pixar) show", yes, but it at least has been doing stuff that is nothing like Discovery or New Trek in general. It isn't shitting on original Trek. On the contrary. It's even given VOY characters interesting plot lines.
The guy in charge of Axanar is still busy doing extended work on the project. So far, it looks like we WILL get it, just not the full movie because the rights holder killed that - if it wasn't for the bug, we would have gotten it already. Last I heard, the shooting was almost completed, and then final post would have started.
That is a pretty clever way of putting it. Plus, it treated the source material with respect. Kirk dies, sacrificing himself to save everyone, not only once, but twice!
I like that, but in retrospect what did we get out of that torch being passed? Four ok-to-pretty-awful movies, and a spin off series nearly 20 years later that really did torch everything we loved. I can live happy with All Good Things being the last time we see TNG'S crew together.
I think Lower Decks was actually pretty good after they toned down the comedy, it felt like really tried to actually be trek with a balance of serious and lightheartedness that was found in TNG. That just my opinion though.
@ that’s fair, I wasn’t a fan of that myself. I did enjoy the series much more when that type of humour was toned down from the 3rd season but hey if you didn’t like it still after that then that’s fine.
It's insane that the genuine canon hasn't advanced forward since Voyager. They should get Brannon Braga back. He knew how to write Trek, and knew how important the canon is, but he got burnt out with so many shows and movies in a really short span of time.
Brannon was a producer/writer on The Orville, too. Macfarlane knew if he wanted the essence of Star Trek as it used to be, he needed the people who used to make the show back in the day. Smart move.
People do watch lower decks and people do enjoy it, i agree that “woke” Star Trek Discovery has been more of an advertisement for inclusivity and forgetting that, in my opinion ,people are interested in a good “Science Fiction story” not a sermon on why it’s important for me to know the sexual preferences of the crew , I don’t care where they get there kicks and care even less about romantic storylines, straight or gay, I want Science Fiction in
I think it can be done - look at the Orville, which is pretty much Seth MacFarlane's version of Star Trek with the names changed. The problem is not that they can't, it's they don't want to (though producers and writers can't). Another non Trek example is the popularity of the (very simple) Mandolorian.
Orville is painfully woke. It literally had an episode where GIRLBOSS overthrows a whole society because PATRIARCHY (the exact opposite of the Prime Directive, but nobody cares because GIRLBOSS), and she succeeds in doing so because GIRLBOSS. This was considered to be one of the best episodes.
Unpopular opinion: I liked lower decks. It was a running joke of Star Trek lore that also paid homage to all series of the past. Very meta but very funny
The thing I see nobody addressing about this... If people accept Lower Decks as canon, so they can claim Discovery is non-canon, they're also accepting that Discovery IS actually CANON. You cannot accept one without the other, because while LD says Discovery isn't canon to the Prime Timeline, that just puts it in the alternate universe canon. Meaning, if you accept Lower Decks, you MUST also accept Discovery as a mirror universe situation. And same with that trashy Kelvin timeline reboot, because LD apparently shoves Discovery into Kelvin. If you accept Lower Decks, you MUST accept Discovery. They go hand in hand, because Lower Decks canonized Discovery.
I think one the main things that keeps killing franchises is when they mess with the past. It's bad when a show just has a lousy series or season, but it's worse when it goes onto some how devalue the original series through time travel or prequels. Shows like Picard did nothing but absolutely destroy the character and make even watching the Next Generation painful as you can't help but know where they all end up.
The more that modern franchises do this, the easier I find it to kick the newer versions to the curb and just draw a line between old and new. I'm just about at the point where all Doctor Who after 1989 doesn't count for me again, there were only 3 Star Wars movies, James Bond ended after Pierce Brosnan's last movie, and Star Trek TNG didn't even get movies in the 1990s let alone a disappointing spin off series 20 years later. It's incredibly freeing to be able to say to oneself, "No, nothing they did to these characters later on matters, *this* is where the franchise starts and *this* is where it finishes".
@@lancebaylis3169 Very true and kind of sad. As some one who was a huge Sci nerd growing up to just not care enough to even watch most of the modern shows. I cared enough to write down all the Rules of Acquisition from Deep Space Nine into a notebook and yet I haven't seen a single episode of Lower Decks or STD. Frankly I started to get annoyed with the Enterprise series. Which is sad in some ways, a lot of modern shows would almost be decent to good if it was just an original show and not tied to an existing brand. But that attempt to tie in sours the whole deal.
"Picard" is only acceptable as "Jean Lucs Nightmares". Dark, gritty, illogical and with all his traumata: The Borg (again, (sigh)), Datas death, Q, his mother who was sad when he left the family for the academy (she didn't die, he recognized her when he met her as an old lady in this other episode of TNG). Not to forget that he betrayed his friend Jack with his wife, so he imagines a son in the wrong age by the name of Jack. And at the end of each episode Beverly asks "Have you had a bad dream again my dear?"
@JustaGuy_Gaming Oh for sure. And I say what I say as someone who should be the target audience. I love these franchises. I should get excited every time a new movie or show based on them gets announced. But they bled all of that enthusiasm out of me.
I was really enjoying Strange New Worlds until Anson Mount posted some crazy tweets on X. His woke tweets were just too much for me, effectively ruining the show for me. Thanks for that, Anson.
Why deprive yourself of great television over an actors personal life or politics? That's a slippery slope. If you only knew the personal feelings of every CEO of the products you regularly purchase. Just saying
You're supposing a lot about SNW being good. At best, it's a TOS derivative that is only better relative to the shows surrounding it; at worst, it's as bad as the rest of them.
Ever since The Last Jedi, and probably long before, I have believed that the people in charge deliberately want the franchises to die. Because they are miserable people and they saw their chance to destroy other people’s happiness and enjoyment. That’s not the only reason (some of these “creatives” actually believe they are compelling and interesting) but I think it’s a majority of the reason. They saw how much we loved Star Wars and Star Trek and they were furiously jealous. So they convinced people that they were actual fans, wormed their way into the company, and set it on fire.
To this day i still watch star trek the original, generations, ds9. Ive only watched a couple of episodes of the other series, ive never gone back to them, same with the movies.
Unfortunately, nutrek tarnishes the brand, especially for new audiences. If Discovery was your first exposure to Star Trek, would you go back and watch any of the other shows? The same thing is happening with Star Wars. Disney has made so much crap that younger audiences are ignoring it now.
@rxtsang Old Star Trek was inspiring and gave hope about a better future. A good example is when President Lincoln apologizes to Lt. Uhura when he thinks he said something racist (he didn't). Uhura briefly replied that it had been a long time since they had been afraid of words.
Oh, I also wanted to say my younger brother isnt really a Trek fan, but likes some sci-fi, and is a “normie”. He called me the other day and said to me “so I watched SNW for the first time the other day…” I said oh no. What did you think?” Because he’s familiar with classic Trek and movies. He has a point of reference. And he said to me “Chris, omg, its TERRIBLE.” And he lambasted it like its nobody’s business. Only episode 6 of season 1 actually feels like Trek. One episode. And they couldn’t latch on and go with it.
@Mereologist The irony that by moving it to a future where it did led to actually ruining even more legacy - as we see how badly things have ended up, and by inference how everything ever made in the show prior to it led to something pointless - actually ended up being worse than a prequel that has no relationship to later versions of the same universe and actively undermined them. Discovery ended up undermining Star Trek from both ends of it's timeline.
It found itself when it stopped trying to be _Rick And Morty_ in the first couple episodes. Got better from there, ran out of steam a bit in season 4, season 5 wasn't amazing but it was alright.
Absolutely. They may have made fun of many things in Star Trek but they did it in a way that was respectful to the original. At their best they showed us a glimpse of the Star Trek I would have loved to see: Riker and Troi aboard the Titan, Rom and Leeta negotiating the Ferengi joining the Federation and so on. They "fixed" a lot of things the right way. And they always got the original actors to do the voice-acting, even if they hadn't been acting for decades. Sad that it ended, but given the lesser quality of the fifth season I have to wonder if they just decided it was time to stop before they ran out of stories.
Well I consider the end of Enterprise as my cutoff point. The 'Enterprise' series had a very rough start, but was doing a great job by the end of its to short run. Clearly treated the 'pre TOS' era far better then Discovery or SNW did. What little I watched of those last two pieces of garbage.
@@doberski6855: Same for me. Star Trek ended when Enterprise ended. The thing I would have changed for Enterprise is scrapping the temporal cold war/Xindi arc and instead covered the Earth-Romulan War while keeping the MACOs as a spec ops unit.
I think RazörFist has a good point. The people in charge of Star Trek nowadays, have no clue what made the francise tick in the first place. Either that or they simply refuse to understand, because in their mindset, everything old must be replaced with something new, no matter if it's worse or not. (Because you HAVE to keep up with the times! No matter what.) Which is a mindset one can see in almost every aspect of western society (idk if eastern society does the same thing) imo.
I call BS. I've watched both Season 1 & 2 of Strange New Worlds and it recaptures the campy feel of TOS spectacularly. It's a true spiritual successor. Now, it certainly doesn't have the "mature" feeling of DS9 or TNG but that wasn't their intent. It's set during Kirk's era and the original timeline. Strange New Worlds is the best Trek since Enterprise (better) and I'll live on that hill
@@christopherbrooksoregonboy The thing is TOS was not supposed to be campy in its time. (The TOS movies captured the orignal feel we had back then the best (especially ST:4 imo)). SNW is a parody of something that never was. You can stay on that hill, and i stay on mine.
I have a friend who hated Trek, felt it was for nerds. He enjoys new Trek cuz its "for him". Thats their target demographic: those who hated the originals.
To the whole Garak/Bashir shipping business, one is a hologram, and neither are from each other’s universe. And considering “Gayrak” is a doctor, it’s not our Garak any more than “Julian BaQueer” is ours either. That’s why they squabble about who is moving to whom’s universe once the mission to stop all rifts is completed. And I liked _Lower Decks_ as well as _Prodigy_ a lot. It’s just too bad the latter shit the bed at its end and was victim of the execs and bullshit if NuTrek. And I never considered them canon. Taking out what befell _Prodigy_ in Season ,2 even if both shows actually adhered properly to the original ‘64-‘05 lore, they’re animated which gives them as dubious a canon as TAS which was never acknowledged except maybe a detail or two here or there.
Oh, come on. If you're going to screw with the main-timeline character arcs that much, just make them actually different people. I loathe Multiverse writing since it's the laziest way to do a deus ex machina. It's a sign of bad writing.
@@TheJohn8765 And that little tirade has what to do with my comment? By your ranting, the Mirror Universe (as novel or overplayed as it may be) is an affront to everything because it changes everyone so profoundly. Also, the two-parter itself actually makes a very interesting counterpoint to the laziness that multiverses have been accused of where it’s nothing more than retreads of known characters being that it’salso an exploration of what we as Humans _can_ be as opposed to discovering all these non-Humans and what they are/did compared to us. Plus, while I find the whole GarakxBashir business one of the shittier parts of the two episodes, it allows them to toy with the nonexistent sexual tensions between the two for the perverted slashficcers out there without violating any canon by making straight characters magically gay while still irritating the fans nonetheless.
Star Trek needs to follow the Lucas rule: it has to go away for a while so people can miss it. It needs 10-20 years to where it becomes niche and for nerds again. I mean true pussy repellent, non-normie stuff. Then maybe… MAYBE… it can make a comeback.
I don't get this guys issue with Lower Decks. It's way more like old trek than he gives it credit for.. has he actually watched it properly or just got put off by the family guy art style like everyone else did before they watched it
i can explain it, he saw 1st season and saw a female characters and that's it, that's why he dislikes lower decks. I mean this dude literally shat on it after watching a pilot episode ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@goshtin Yeah, i have this feeling that he would be ripping TNG as well if it came out today! Seriously imagine this dude watching TNG pilot for the first time, i mean can you imagine all the whining about woke stuff? Dudes a grifter with a rather moronic community orbiting him , that's all there is to it , its not really about Star trek with him
I grew up with TNG and the later shows and love them with all my heart, but if I had to say only one thing is Star Trek then it's the original 79 episodes and 6 original movies. Everything else is second tier.
Not for the first 2 seasons...and tbh Season 3 was just a member berry exercise. The story was utterly stupid and had the Enterprise flying around like the Millenium Falcon.
@aldunlop4622 Picard S3 was just as bad as the first two, and suffered from all the same problems. It just had the benefit of nostalgia to help gloss over the deficiencies. But that only works so many times. Once those member berries have done their tricks, and you return for rewatches? The story falls apart as quickly as either of the other seasons. Completely smoke and mirrors.
The problem with modern Trek, Wars & Who compared to the classic versions is that they feel like two different versions now, sacrificing lower budget well written intelligent drama, to now being told on a bigger budget, with flashier effects, zero character development and rushed plot. All 3 franchises ended in 2005 for me, the biggest problem now is that its written by fans of the originals and is essentially big budget fan-fic with personal views/agendas shoehorned in.
I' used to try and justify keeping parts of modern Doctor Who that I liked, at least initially. But it has collapsed under it's own steam, and the Davies Mark II era has highlighted a lot of things I disliked even about his first go in the showrunner chair. So, I've more or less done the same thing, and cut loose the whole modern version from 2005 onwards. Cut off the arm to save the patient, as the old saying goes.
@lancebaylis3169 Good Analogy. Glad you agree. At this point since RTD2, I now consider any Nu-Who from RTD1 onwards (this includes Moffatt & Chibnall) just as big budget poorly imitated/written fan-fic with modern agenda/sensabilities, just like JJ Wars & Kurtzman Trek. Fans of originals trying to mould it in their own image and not succeeding particularly well, tainting the original legacy. I did watch the majority of Nu-Who and enjoyed some of it, but something just didn't feel quite right - RTD2 has now cemented that something was off introducing sex & relationship stuff all the time. Just like Wars & Trek, am just sticking to classic OG Who going forwards. Also the colourised War Games was the cherry on top as they totally butchered and retconned it - an absolute travesty! .
I've fully embraced the concept of 'personal canon', drawing my own arbitary lines for where franchises start and end and refusing anything after said points. It's actually quite empowering to be able to say, "No, nothing you did to this character later counts".
I have long separated True Trek from NuTrek (everything from 2009 on). For those old enough to remember, I compare this to the difference between Coke and New Coke. The “new” version was resoundingly rejected by the public. However, back then Coca-Cola had enough sense to stop selling New Coke and restore Coca-Cola Classic to prominence. But alas, Paramount is not as sensible as Coca-Cola. So, for worse, we’re stuck sucking down NuTrek.
Post-Enterprise Star Trek: Lower Decks is the only canon show. Picard, Discovery, and the upcoming Section 31 and Starfleet Academy bullshit are just trash that only idiots enjoy. A case can be made for Picard season 3, but the corrective turn was a little too late, tbh. That final scene of the ginormous Galaxy-class juking and skidding like it's a fighter plane was really fucking stupid.
I personally considered the legitimate Star Trek Universe was over after Voyager, not Enterprise, Enterprise had way to many continuity issues and they did not care about it - Archer met Ferengi in the 22nd Century for the first time only for Picard to first encounter them centuries years later, Archer was the only man to escape Rura Penthe - until Captain Kirk was the first to escape the inescapable Prison.
Yeah because it's such a stretch that the Klingons wouldn't tell people that someone escaped their inescapable prison..... Picard did not "first encounter them" centuries later. They were explicitly mentioned by Riker as "like the old river traders of the 19th century" when they came across the Ferengi....
What about that episode in Voyager where they went back in time to the 90s, wouldn't that be considered a continuity issue? I don't really know, I haven't seen that one in a while and I'm genuinely curious.
ENT can get buy on it beign a direct result of First Contact. and Frengi is the one you point out. note noting said the two groups never fully met before. the cloakign devices is the one I would pull out
And Amok Time is really no big deal, Vulcans talk about it all the time. And Romulans? WTF happened to the 100 years war between Earth and Romulus? Romulans just start out in charge of the Federation? There were SO many things wrong with that show that it was like none of the writers had even heard of Star Trek before.
You don't need to "give (Star Wars/Star Trek) a good long rest." You just need to start making good stuff again. If something new in either of those franchises premiered tomorrow, fans would eat it up. The right people just need to be put in charge.
They need to make people care about these franchises but unfortunately these companies have done so much damage and pushed so many people away it's going to be very difficult.
Yep. It died when Enterprise ended. I liked Enterprise, overall, though the time travel stuff really are up a lot of episodes. However, everything after Enterprise, especially Pukeard, sucks!
I would argue Star Wars is far better of, though its hard to compare. Disney produced are a lot more movies and series and on aggregate I would say half of it is actually good or at least decent (YMMV). Problem is they failed on the important half. I don't mind Rogue One and Andor being part of my personal SW-canon, same with Rebels and at least the first two seasons of the Mandalorian. And their place in the SW-timeline actually allows them being there without having to accept trash like the Sequel-trilogy, Kenobi, Book of Boba etc. But what will always mystify me is how the same people who created the first two seasons of the Mandalorian managed to make season 3 so crappy.
anything 2009 and beyond is terrible fanfiction, I even consider Ds9 to simply be Discovery with a leash, since it brutalized the canon in its own right. it was just the stewards of the canon had a tighter leash on the creatives until 2009 then they just let go to let them do whatever they liked. TOS, TNG, ENT, VOY, and the two sets of original/TNG movies are all I consider to be Star Trek, the rest can be dumpster'd.
I have been a Star Trek fan since 94 and I don’t understand that “hate” for Star Trek Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks. I think Strange New Worlds is one of the best new Star Trek shows around. And Lower Decks is really funny as well. I am a big fan of Simpsons, Family Guy, South Park and Rick and Morty, so maybe I’m partial to animation, but it really is good. I would love for Drinker to watch ALL of both series and let us know what he thinks. If he could have watched all of Attack on Titan and come out with a review out of nowhere he can watch Lower Decks.
SNW is awful mate. Truly awful. Dancing Klingon boy band was the jumping the shark moment for me. That said, compared to Discovery, SNW is the greatest TV show ever made.
100% agree! I did not like JJ Abrams Movies, could not stomach Discovery and Picard at all (S3 was nice though) and was therefore sceptical regarding SNW and Lower Decks. But both shows in their own way only work, if you know your Trek! Especially lower decks is a love letter to Trek. Drinker should watch it!
@@angermanagementstudios I don’t know. I liked the musical episode. I also liked the musical Buffy one too. SNW explores a lot more of Trek. And I enjoy the new Kirk as well. The cliffhanger of season 2 was great and I am eagerly waiting for season 3.
I'll defend Lower Decks excluding season one where Kurtzman was clearly involved. But the fact that the best content an IP is putting out is from a light hearted comedy series about itself that only exists because of neglect is a clear sign that the franchise is dead. When the characters from the animated spoof show cross over into the 'real' show and those animated parody characters come off as the most real and responsible subjects in the show compared to the rest of the cast and the writing something is wrong with your franchise. At this point I think our only real chance at decent high Sci-fi shows is for Paradox or Digital Extremes to step up and make a series about Stellaris or Warframe.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I never imagined living in a timeline where I wouldn't just not care about Star Wars or Star Trek, but actively hate both properties and the people making them. And yet, here we are.
Transcend even further, beyond h@tred and into the realm of indifference.
Cause as we all know: _" H@tred leads to the dark side. "_
We were naive kids and teens back then thinking things could NEVER go wrong. Now as adults we're aware things can go very wrong.
I swear if these people remake Stargate SG1... It's the only thing I have left.
@@LawfulBased there are millions of things to do these days. I used to love both, but over the last decade of so, I moved on to indifference and now spend my free time playing video games . Its been years since I watched a new movie now too
@@christopheryoung2874 Relatable.
Just like me for real for real. 😆
The REAL Star Trek will never die. It’s here, alive, in my mind.
A few great episodes, the rest ranging from ho-hum to skinpeelingly BAD. No thanks.
And in the mind of Mike Stoklasa.
@@daveroche6522 Utter nonsense.
Same with the real Star Wars
But you'll die...
I find it hilariously just that kurtzman trek is so incompetent that it accidentally de-canonized itself.
May not have been an accident. Mike McMahan is a big fan of OG Trek (even Tawny Newsome is too). It could have been a very subversive jab since it happened in the very last episode of the show’s very last season. It certainly was at least a shot at the awful “Kling-orc” designs from Disco. If your show was getting the axe, why not take a parting shot?
Please, dont insult his GREATEST idea 😂
It has been pointed out that 'Lower Decks' has been used a number of times to 'fix' various plot holes and continuity errors. The people in charge have said that 'Lower Decks' and these 'fixes' are absolutely canon. So it's quite possible this was no accident at all.
@@allthingsnerd.4484 it could also be that basically everyone, probably even Kurtzman, knows he's on the way out at the earliest possible opportunity... so why defend his failures?
Kurtzman spent years pushing for a 'section 31' show and the best he could get was a direct to streaming one shot movie. Anyone who has any ambitions of working with Star Trek long term can read between the lines on that one : his 'timeline' is a lame duck, so time to push your alternatives
It was not mistake and sorry, but nothing has been decanonized. The Star Trek Multiverse was established in TNGs Season 7 episode "Parallels" where Worf jumps from one multiverse too another and each is slightly different. All that the Lower Decks episode shows is that there is at least one universe where the Klingorks exist in the TNG era. And if we took that as a sign that Discovery is in another timelime we would also have to assume that all other changes, e.g. the Cerritos changing into a Sovereign-class vessel, are from another timeline, meaning that Lower Decks itself can't be in the classic TNG timeline. And if Lower Decks is not in the TNG timeline than it doesn't matter that Discovery is not in the same timeline as ower Decks...
Sorry, but that the decanonization of STD is wishful thinking with a dose of cherrypicking. The only real thing is Lower Decks writers kind of acknowledging how bad Discovery was by making the transformation something horrible happening to the Klingons.
We didn't know how good we had it with Star Trek: Enterprise.
I know I'm in the minority but I liked the show start to finish (and it finished strong...other than the last episode).
@archstanton9073 I really dug the show too. Scott Bakula from Quantumn Leap as a Star Trek captain? Sign me up.
I liked Enterprise. That was the last Star Trek series I bothered with.
*Squirts out a handful decontamination gel* "Alright everybody, strip."
Just because it got worse doesn't mean _Enterprise_ was any good.
Here's a take that everyone can agree on: "Galaxy Quest is more like Star Trek than anything that's come out after 2005".
...and the Orville as well. Star Trek Continues is better that Kurtzman Trek.
The Orville basically was star trek.
YES
GC is awesome fanfic.
Add artist Daniel Warren Johnson's bootleg comic book "Martok" to that list.
6:45 Die-hard DS9 fan here. Garek and Bashir never had any s*xual tension, never. Bashir was quite overtly straight, and, frankly, with that show its unclear if Garek was ever actually Bashir's friend.
Having the two of them kiss is Twilight-fanfic levels of stupid. Like having Worf and Riker kiss. If you think about it for more than 30 seconds, the issues go beyond the absurdity of it and start digging at the core of who those characters are, the relationships they've had with other characters, how they actually have viewed each other in the past, etc.
True. Hell Garek was instantly in love with Gul Dukat's daughter Ziyah when she was aboard the station.
@@kaijuking3216 *Ziyal
The producer didn't want to allow sexual tension between Garak and Bashir. Both actors thought they could make it work.
Andrew Robinson, in an interview, related that he would liked to have seen Garak be outright gay for Bashir. But this is a far cry from such a relationship being canon. I am glad that the show never went this direction. It's as cringe as the "K/S" fanfic out there.
@@monkeytime9851so the actors wanted something even though bit wouldn’t have been in accordance with the characters. Perhaps that’s why they’re paid to be dancing monkeys and nothing else
They'll never touch my dvd boxsets, star trek will always stay alive in my house.
Everything that happened after those box sets is irrelevant, only 20th century counts.
We have your name and number. We will be around to erase the heretical past. Resistance is futile.
Absolutely.
Rewatching the Star Trek TOS, right now and it's still fantastic sci - fi.
Same here, the franchise ended with Enterprise.
Best of all, NO ONE can "improve" or "correct" your physical media. Too many movies, TV shows and other entertainment options are actively being destroyed. Or taken out. WB Discovery has a LOT of pissed off people who thought they had permanent ownership of shows they bought, thinking they were saving space in their homes, and having access to these shows on some streaming like service. I would rather have the clutter, and any time access to my favorites.
“If Beyond and Discovery killed the franchise then Picard bent its corpse over a table with the teddy bear from my Doctor Who analogy” - Drinker
The best Star Trek of the past 20 years was a 10 minute UA-cam video with Shatner and an A.I. Nimoy.
Made by actual fans for fans.... imagine that.
I watched it last night finally and I have to be honest, it felt really dull. I don’t think it was pointless and it did make me smile but it was just cringey enough to also make me laugh and I feel bad about that.
@@evam4182 the fact that it made you smile is enough to make it the best Star Trek of the past 20 years!
The Orville tbh
@ can’t argue with that!
The worst part is that Patrick Stewart helped kill it. I can't tell u how betrayed I felt when Picard aired.
An actor isn't his Character ...just like the coffee cup isn't the coffee. It is a vessel to carry the coffee.
@@kathleenhensley5951 very profound.
Sorry, in this case your analogy doesn't stand. Stewart had a lot of artistic input into the direction of the Picard series as well as how the character of Picard was developed from that point. I get that you like and respect Patrick Stewart, but he holds some responsibility in regard to the poor direction and performance of season one and two of Picard.@@kathleenhensley5951
@@kathleenhensley5951 I read that he had a lot of input into how his character acted. He was pissed off about Brexit and Trump and took it out on the rest of us with is crappy story.
The 3rd season was bursting with fan service so I enjoyed it mostly. The first 2 seasons were garbage. Honestly, they could have stretched the 3rd season into more episodes
TNG/DS9/Voy/Ent whilst they had their flaws, didnt have the written by a teenager with ADHD mentality. The writing makes a show
And TOS as well. All you just typed are actual Star Trek.
Voyager added a character just because the character had boobs, and chose the character from a race that absolutely wouldn't have boobs.
Even in the later years Voy an Ent could still hit you with some deep quintessential Trek. Zero of the new shows have any of that hopefulness, problem solving, or moral dilemma, just vapid flashy bullshit that means nothing.
Ent? Naaah, overwise valid
@@Ky0l go back and take a watch of seasons 3 and 4
Star Trek ended on Friday, May 13, 2005 (last episode of Enterprise).
What a shit way to go.. the holodeck ending was dumb..
@@moffant4916It was crap but at least it was still Star Trek.
@@WillCamx 100% agree
@moffant4916 I found it kind of fitting. Being as the entire show was trying to show the struggles of becoming a space fairing civilization. What can go wrong will go wrong. It isn't quite the utopia future Star Trek is yet.
@GrandAdmThrawn. I won't rewatch the last episode of the Enterprise. Once they mindlessly killed off Trip...I was like " SERIOUSLY???? WHAT THE HECK??!!!!
Gene Roddenberry once stated that the human adventure was just beginning. If he could see current year "Star Trek," he'd recant that statement!
To be fair, he probably would’ve been raising hell since the third season of TNG. He certainly would’ve hated DS9 and I honestly wouldn’t blame him.
As much as I love the positive vision of the future Roddenberry designed, he was also a total pervert and would've added a lot more sexuality to Trek if the culture allowed it, including homosexuality.
After they ridiculed Gene Roddenberry by name on camera on STD I turned it off canceled my subscription to the streaming service and donated all my merchandise to the Salvation Army. After being a Trekker for 45 years it finally became dead to me with that straw.
I'm pretty sure if Roddenberry were alive today he would think differently. In fact Trek hasn't wavered one bit from his vision.
@@gloriathomas3245Speak for yourself, then come out of the holodeck into reality.
@@gloriathomas3245 the hell it hasn't.
@@gloriathomas3245 Funny given everyone hated him when he worked on TNG and when he was gone the show actually got good and everyone was happier.
Gene's vision would of been boring BS nothingburgers.
He wanted no conflicts between people, so in other words lame and boring.
💯💯💯
09 was the death of Trek for me. I really disliked the J.J. Abrams movies. Everything afterward is just exceptionally bad fanfic. Star Trek, Star Wars, Doctor Who. All the old cornerstones of geek culture was pummled to dust.
Ah I really liked 09 except that Vulcan was destroyed and the bad guy won. Ending your movie in apocalyptic failure, such an odd choice.
I thought that by Star Trek 3 they were almost able to make an okay movie. 1 and 2 had ridiculous plot. Compared to them, the average 3 felt almost Shakespearean.
At least we have a good Dune film now
Only saw the FIRST J.J. movie. Been done ever since. Thank God for my TOS & TNG DVD sets.
@@DeltaDragon79 BINGO!
Modern Star Trek is what happens when writers trade their own fanbase for woke people.
No, it is 'woke' people writing for producers and themselves.
Woke people without talent or imagination
Its what happens when opinionated, untalented nepo babies are just put in charge of shit. Just like all the other asslicker celebrities: your job is to entertain us, not deliver a sermon, no one cares what you think beyond the characters you play or crappy screenplays you write.
Another interpretation is sub-standard hacks living off the legacy of geniuses.
I have lived through the Birth and Death of Star Trek, never thought I'd see the day honestly. Same thing going on with Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Dr. Who, Super Hero Movies......... They sure are kicking the body to make sure there is no life left.
Same here. And I thought I had it bad when they stopped going to the moon!
One can only hope its de-cannonised. Can we please do the same to the ladt 10 years of Star Wars.
We can wipe everything post-1997, I'd say. Take out those "Special Edition" garbage remasters of the OT and the prequels too!
You make it sound like you're waiting on word from the Vatican.
This is all just arbitrary legalese, dude. You're giving copywrite lawyers WAY too much power over your mindscape.
You make it sound like you're waiting to hear from a prophet.
This is all arbitrary copyright legalese dude. Stop letting lawyers live rent-free in your head.
nothing Disney made is canon
@@ephraimwinslow actually it's not arbitrary copyright legalese - Star Trek was divided up into 4 licenses, that's reality.
Hanlon's Razor is "do not attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity". Occam's Razor is "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one".
Philosophy 101 - gotta love it! I do!
Occam was right but Hanlon was wrong. Evil is evil, whether it's done on purpose or by accident because of "stupidity". And it's exactly what an evil person would say to cover their tracks. Believing in Hanlon leaves you open to being abused. A kindergartener knows the difference between malice and stupidity.
And how many times must we attribute it to random stupidity before the pattern of malice emerges?
@@funkydiscogod Do no underestimate human beings capacity for stupidity.
@@funkydiscogod How many stupid people have you met? The universe seems to have a limitless supply of stupid.
It died when Rick Berman was no longer at the helm of the franchise and when Kurtzman took over for him. It was brought back to life by Terry Matalas, but died again when they axed him from making Star Trek Legacy. Kurtzman knows very little about this amazing franchise and cares so little about it but just won't loosen his grip on it, which is why Star Trek is limping along now.
Berman was loyal to Trek and to the fans, it is sad how many attacked him over things he could not do.
It's not limping along. It's DEAD at least NuTrek anyway. Thanks JJ Abrams and Alex Kurtzman. 🤣😅
@@garethmorgan8326 First ever I heard about Berman, it was a criticism that no one was opposing, so it was creating an impression a lot of people agree. Back then I didn't know so much about ST, so I thought all those people must know things I don't when they make such strong statements. So, I tried to learn more about who Rick Berman actually is and why is he so criticized. I read what decisions he made, why he made it, how it all works, and I still didn't understand why such strong criticism. So, believing I'm still missing something, I read more. Until I realized that I actually know more than many of those who criticize Berman so fiercely. I can talk about several things I think should have been done differently in ST, but generally speaking, Berman did the best job he could, given the circumstances.
You cannot have a franchise shining if the top producer is bad. And Berman was the head of ST during its golden era. I think that says something.
Gene Roddenberry picked Berman to be his successor. I think now Rick Berman should be involved in finding his own successor.
The franchise was going well stagnant under Rick Berman though too. After DS9 they just did more or less TNG re-treads with Voyager and Enterprise (neither worthless shows by any means, but it was getting laaaazyyyyy). Then JJ turned Star Trek into Star Wars, and then Star Wars into putrid garbage. Then his buddies turned Trek into more putrid garbage.
@@breach005 I agree. Involving Manny Cotto in the middle of ENT was the right decision that gave the show freshness. But Berman should have done this much much earlier. However, part of that stagnation was due to the studio that was pressuring Berman to recycle what was working before. That's why he, for example, prepared for Voyager some potentially thrilling themes like 1/3 of crew being Maquis, or ex-convict Tom Paris and then it all turned out to be just a happy family show.
I've loved Trek since I was a kid. I remember seeing Wrath of Khan and being blown away by how amazing it was. I went to conventions as it was so much fun. Now I can't bring myself to care. It just is so stupid, and it never seems to be trying to actually inspire us to be great. They all seem just preaching and crapping on the history.
Agreed. I discovered Trek in my mid 20's and feel like it truly made me a better person. I can't imagine what modern Trek is doing for people that's positive or life changing.
Agree. Although, Star Trek Strange New Worlds is legit. And I will live on that hill
@@christopherbrooksoregonboy The first season was oookkk. Episode 1 of season 2 I realised it's just a bait n switch. It's just more Woke bullshit like STD.
They put creatures in our bodies, to control our minds!
I remember how Script Doctor said that in addition to giving Kurtzman a contract extension, Moonves also secretly sold him a piece of the rights as well. If that is true, then Moonves *REALLY* succeeded in killing Star Trek worse then we thought
If that is true, I'd LOVE to know where he got the money to purchase those rights from? Star Trek was a premium brand back then, so it wouldn't have been cheap, and Kurtzman doesn't strike me as someone with the financial resources to buy rights like those.
I don't know if it was Kurtzman, who was only a writer at the time of '09, but it's long been suggested that JJ Abrams has partial ownership. That's why even the recent rumors of a new Star Trek theatrical film (unrelated to the so-called Kelvinverse) mentioned him as being involved. They can't make it without him at this point, legally.
I've been saying for years that the destruction of IP's was deliberate. People called me paranoid.
I used to think that the destruction of the major geek franchises was more down to incompetence rather than malice. Now, I think the reverse is true.
Well, they've destroyed the entire western world! So why not the pop culture, too
Buy popular thing with built in fan base, change popular thing for new nonexistent fan base, lose money, sell company to larger company, be forgotten.
No, it's all malice, it's all part of the plan.
It’s worse than that it’s dead Jim! Dead Jim! Dead Jim! It’s worse than that it’s dead Jim! Dead Jim! Dead!
-Dr McCoy
*worse
It's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it. It's life, Jim, but not as we know it not as we know it…Captain.
Mr. Spock 🖖
The Firm:- "It's a franchise Jim but not as we know it. Not as we know it. Not as we know it. It's a franchise Jim but not as we know it, Jim;
It's worse than that it's dead Jim. Dead, Jim. Dead, Jim. It's worse than that it's dead Jim. Dead, Jim. Dead....."
There's Kurtzman off the starboard bow, scrape him off, Jim!
It's worse than the bit with Dave and Holly In Red Dwarf with Holly ending his long slightly differentiated very simple explanations/statements with a closing line that certainly applies to what Star Trek became.
Holly:
They're all dead. Everybody's dead, Dave.
Lister:
Peterson isn't, is he?
Holly:
Everybody's dead, Dave!
Lister:
Not Chen!
Holly:
Gordon Bennett! Yes, Chen. Everyone. Everybody's dead, Dave!
Lister:
Rimmer?
Holly:
He's dead, Dave. Everybody is dead. Everybody is dead, Dave.
Lister:
Wait. Are you trying to tell me everybody's dead?
Holly:
Should've never let him out in the first place....
I'm going to admit that Lower Decks was a guilty pleasure of mine, and the only Trek thing I've seen in years I enjoyed. Yes, it's basically just Rick and Morty with a Star Trek license... but I liked the first two seasons of Rick and Morty.
I watched a few episodes and while I didn't find it laugh out loud funny it was amusing enough.
I feel it just gets discredited because it’s a cartoon
It's actually worrying that, Imo, the best of new Trek is the 2 animated series with Prodigy being a good "my first Trek" for kids, but also entertaining for adults.
Lower Decks didn't hook me until the end of Season 1 with the "Sir, there's another Starship coming in".......but it isn't the Enterprise, it's the USS Titan! 😄
Sadly, it just wasn't Trek.
Starfleet officers don't act like that.
Everyone should watch Star Trek Continues
I've tried. BORING!
I think it's good.
@@daveroche6522 boring?! it’s a perfect continuation of TOS
I think that ST Continues is in many aspects similar to Kurtzman Trek. (I certainly don't want to insult ST Continues.) It is a high-quality non-professional project with good costumes, sets and some skilled professionals involved, that like many fan films is still rather weak in acting and script. Considering this is just a passion project of some fans, this is very good result. Though still not a TV level quality. Kurtzman Trek is in a sense similar; a good costumes and sets (I'm not saying I like it, just acknowledging it wasn't cheap.), but also suffering from weak acting and script. So, also not a TV level quality.
@ I think the difference is the people who made STC are passionate and knowledgeable fans. I do consider that series as an actual fourth season in my head canon
The question to ask is: if they actually were trying to take these franchises down, what would they have done differently? If the answer is "nothing", there's your answer.
In MY head opinion, if ur FIRST introduction to Star Trek is DUHscovery or anything that came after......u have no idea what actual Trek is.
Star trek used to be a bold, exciting and hopeful image of human future..now it puts a mirror in front of current day society, media and writing and shows us a morally bankrupt system trying to suck out the last penny from the few 'fans' left.
TOS put a (often times ham-fisted) mirror up to 60's America. The one with the black and white aliens and the space hippies to name a couple.
@archstanton9073 I loved those episodes...but remember...the crew were above all that and tried to teach...or dare I say, preach;)
Well, old Trek also put a mirror up to modern problems, but the difference is the writers actually had the talent to put it into a story that wasn't just a naked and opinionated sermon from these dickhead Hollyweirds, and/or a self-insert fantasy for the showrunner to justify their professional victimhood.
Remember that time Riker caused an intergalactic incident because he was trying to bang an androgenous alien that wanted to have a recognized race in their own society? More than one like that in TNG that explores heavier topics like that, and DS9 too. But this was still entertaining television, while still delivering often a moral question to sit with. The new stuff just rams it down your throat with a battleship sized plunger
@@archstanton9073But TOS showed that humanity would surmount our problems and build a bright future. Modern sci fi is obsessed with darkness.
@@RCAvhstape because the modern writers are a tenticle of that darkness...
I just fell in love with Star Trek in the past 9 months. I started with DS9, and i just ended with TNG. I truly feel that it is my favorite group of shoes of all time. Modern Star trek is absolutely dog poop.
There was never any dogshit in the original series. Just sayin'.
@@daveroche6522Well, except for that salt sucking monster episode anyway. But most of TOS is great.
@@RCAvhstapedon't forget when Spock's brain was stolen.
@@RabbitShirak hahaha Spock's brain episode is still better than the vast majority of this current era of Trek 😂
Star Trek Strange New Worlds is legit. I will live on that hill
The advantage of long running franchises is you can just rewatched the older media (movies, TV shows, books, games, etc) and ignore the newer media.
Star Trek “I’m a dead franchise”
Star War “Right there with you”
At least with Trek we have Q who, if a brave enough team take over, could erase everything after All Good Things.
I keep remembering that Simpsons episode with Lisa trying to sell a Barbie doll to modern girls .
The company sell just one , Lisa get happy because she could "save" ate least one girl , and all that Using the money from other people now that has a big money debt .
"But she has a new hat!" lol, Simpsons as usual called it forever ago. Hollywood got taken over by a bunch of Lisa's
Star Trek lives on in the hearts of the ones who truly loved it. Share it with your kids, your family, your friends. We got six mostly excellent television shows, an uneven but largely enjoyable collection of movies, and a ton of tie-in novels, comics, and games. That’s a hell of a lot more than most franchises get. Trek is over, and the property will never move forward, but it will only truly be dead when we forget what made it special in the first place.
Well said.
As far as I'm concerned, STD was never canon to begin with. Anything made after 2004/05, isn't canon. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Everything after Enterprise can be erased from history, also a few of the TNG movies as well because they suuuck. Where is Annorax when you need him
@breach005 🤣🤣🤣 I see what you did there with the Annorax reference.
I think I know which TNG movies you're referring to; but I don't think they should be erased, but more like, rewritten. 🤔🤔
Star Trek Strange New Worlds is legit. I will live on that hill
@@christopherbrooksoregonboy Really? Where everything is played for a laugh and no chain of command or discipline exists? I guess if you say so, but not my Trek
@993mike I've never watched SNW, but I've heard enough about it from various content creators on UA-cam to know it's not a good show. 🤔🤔
That musical episode though. Definitely a low-point. 😒😒
I'm somewhat ambivalent about the idea of getting Star [Trek, Wars] back onto some prior evolutionary track. We no longer have any _new_ shows in the sense of those franchises: all we get are rehashes of previous properties or content lifted from already-popular book series. None of it is original.
Exactly. Leave it alone if you refuse to respect the IP. Same thing with comic books or video games or Tolkien. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS respect the IP.
I don't think the talent exists to create quality TV writing anymore. For every Breaking Bad there are hundreds of garbage shows that die out after a season or two. Now AI is about to enter the field. The woke destruction of the entertainment industry has just turned me off watching altogether. I'm discovering other hobbies now.
Sorry, but the lack of originality has IMHO become a lame excuse. We have got 31 seasons of old trek (including TAS). Add to that 5 seasons of Babylon 5, ca. 15 seasons of Stargate and so on. Some thousand episodes. Add movies like Alien. Also add computer games (Picard season 1 reminded many of Mass Effect). Good luck writing a story that is truely original, that we haven't seen before. It may not be not impossible (see Nolans movies Tenet and Inception), but its very rare. If it is well written and entertaining I won't care that those X-wing flying through the trench of the Death Star are similar to Lancasters attacking a dam in Germany - or Tom Cruise flying an F/A-18 Hornet through a canyon to take out a nuclear facillty.
A good story teller can turn the unoriginal into something original. While all the originality in the world will not matter, if the one telling the story, cannot tell it well. A story might have been told before, but *who* is telling it matters most
It's unfathomable that Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr. Who, Marvel, DC and LoTR all actively hate their fan base and want to drive their IP into the ground.
Yet, here we are...
My wife didn't really watch Start Trek when she was younger, so we're slowly watching Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and all the older movies. Great stuff, and honestly, there's so much of it there's no need to watch the newer stuff.
she better watch the TOS, they are worth it for the escapism
I like lower decks … there , I said it , it keeps the spirit of the 90s shows and it’s fun and self aware , maybe too much random fan service..
Writers and producers with no skills killed Star Trek, Star Wars and Doctor Who in record time. Some kind of achievement, right?
Not just no skill, but an agenda of destruction.
Gene Roddenberry's concept of a future to be aspired to - the kind of future that you'd want humanity to have - was what made Star Trek special. Combine that with infinite adventures exploring an infinite galaxy, and you've got something that should be hard to screw up. But (imho) you can see how things started to go off the rails as soon as Gene Roddenberry was no longer able to veto stuff (he had a stroke or something, iirc)
Suddenly you had stuff he would never have okayed, like Shatner doing his "search for god" movie - a subject that Roddenberry didn't want anywhere near Star Trek - and a new TV series set on a space station _that didn't go anywhere_ rather than on a starship that arrives at a new world every episode.
Of course shows like Voyager and Enterprise now look good, like "proper Trek," thanks to the dreck that came after them, but I can't honestly say I loved anything past TNG while those shows were actually aring. I struggled to ever give a toss for DS9, never really warmed to most of the Voyager cast, and thought making Enterprise a prequel was a terrible idea, espeically in a franchise that's all about boldly going forward into the future and exploring the unexplored.
I'm sick of hearing about "Occam's Razor"... James Forestall said to Joe McCarthy, "consistency has never been a mark of stupidity. If they were merely stupid, they would occasionally make a mistake in our favour."
When was the last time they did anything in our favour??? Anywhere, in anything? It's ALL in one direction with EVERYTHING... media... politics... you name it...
It's Hanlon's Razor they're talking about. Edgy McLeatherjacket got it wrong.
All brainwashed in universities by toxic feminists.
it is a combo of both malice and incompetence
people giving them the benefit of the doubt of either is giving them way too much credit
Do you remember that companion chap in Doctor Who - can’t remember his name - who was nervous and unconfident and bit of a wimp and the girlfriend of Karen Gillan. And there was an episode where he was sent back in time and he spent a literal *thousand years* guarding Karen Gillan’s tomb, or something.
And you thought, wow can’t wait to see how such an incomprehensible experience changes a man.
Answer: they argue a bit for one episode and then he was back to normal.
Rory.
There _is_ a character change, but it's much more subtle than it ought to be for such a big thing in his life. He becomes a lot more confident in himself, like when he faced an entire warfleet of cybermen on their own flagship just to demand information from them.
You forget that one movie where he fights a never-ending fight against the Cyber-men (I think), which given the current Dr Who episodes, makes absolutely no sense.
@@ReddwarfIVah really! Thanks for info I’ve never rewatched it from first airing so maybe I was a little harsh
@danlucraft Eh. A few weeks ago I ran through a list of Matt Smith era episodes and came to the conclusion that I didn't think _any_ of them were stand-out good. I can understand not giving Moffat the benefit of the doubt.
Lower Decks should’ve continued. Who would have thought when we heard about a batch of new Trek series that I would’ve loved the animated comedy most of all of them?
Except it wasn't Trek...? Starfleet officers don't act like that.
@ I think there’s room for a comedy in the ST world.
Most people don't give a shit about Lower Decks?? Sorry Drinker, I generally agree with you, but you are way off base on that one sir. I know you didn't like it when it came out, but I'm going to recommend a re-watch - it turned into one of the most amazing Star Trek series and was a hugely enjoyable and entertaining show throughout its whole run. A huge number of people would dearly like to see it get more episodes.
People always discredit animation, it’s sad to see 😢
In slight defense of Prodigy... Did Drinker or anybody in the panel EVER watch Prodigy S1 and S2, completely?
It's like an animated show of Star Trek: Elite Force.
I feel that Prodigy as a show is getting WAY too much flak from you guys who haven't seen it.
"It's a kids (Pixar) show", yes, but it at least has been doing stuff that is nothing like Discovery or New Trek in general.
It isn't shitting on original Trek. On the contrary. It's even given VOY characters interesting plot lines.
Star Trek has been dead since they dropped a bridge on Captain Kirk.
...Oh My....
Not a great ending for him to be sure, but let’s give some credit to First Contact.
Sorry you're one of those whiners, I love Generations. Kirk dies heroically TWICE, so grow up and realise people die.
@@aldunlop4622 He died like a pig. Don't reply to me if you have nothing of value to say.
And just think: for THIS they denied us Axanar
"I DO NOT FEAR THE KLINGON EMPIRE!"
- Tony Todd
The guy in charge of Axanar is still busy doing extended work on the project. So far, it looks like we WILL get it, just not the full movie because the rights holder killed that - if it wasn't for the bug, we would have gotten it already. Last I heard, the shooting was almost completed, and then final post would have started.
No, thst was Axanar producer doing illegal shit
Star Trek is alive and well, because nothing after Enterprise is Star Trek
Kelvin Star Trek is a completely different product with a different look and feel and different values than the original Star Trek.
Honestly, Lower Decks is decent, there is a love for the franchise in it. Discovery was an abomination.
Generations was a passing of the torch, not a torching of the franchise.
That is a pretty clever way of putting it.
Plus, it treated the source material with respect. Kirk dies, sacrificing himself to save everyone, not only once, but twice!
I like that, but in retrospect what did we get out of that torch being passed? Four ok-to-pretty-awful movies, and a spin off series nearly 20 years later that really did torch everything we loved. I can live happy with All Good Things being the last time we see TNG'S crew together.
I think Lower Decks was actually pretty good after they toned down the comedy, it felt like really tried to actually be trek with a balance of serious and lightheartedness that was found in TNG. That just my opinion though.
It's predeliction towards gross-out humor decants it for me. I tried to give it the benefit of the doubt, but it really was just more of the same.
@ that’s fair, I wasn’t a fan of that myself. I did enjoy the series much more when that type of humour was toned down from the 3rd season but hey if you didn’t like it still after that then that’s fine.
It's insane that the genuine canon hasn't advanced forward since Voyager.
They should get Brannon Braga back. He knew how to write Trek, and knew how important the canon is, but he got burnt out with so many shows and movies in a really short span of time.
He's a bit of a creep though tbh.
Brannon was a producer/writer on The Orville, too. Macfarlane knew if he wanted the essence of Star Trek as it used to be, he needed the people who used to make the show back in the day. Smart move.
Lower Decks was after VOY. They weren't allowed to do many changes, I think, but we got the Ferengi joining the Feds at least.
You want the guy back that wrote "Threshold?"
People do watch lower decks and people do enjoy it, i agree that “woke” Star Trek Discovery has been more of an advertisement for inclusivity and forgetting that, in my opinion ,people are interested in a good “Science Fiction story” not a sermon on why it’s important for me to know the sexual preferences of the crew , I don’t care where they get there kicks and care even less about romantic storylines, straight or gay, I want Science Fiction in
I think it can be done - look at the Orville, which is pretty much Seth MacFarlane's version of Star Trek with the names changed. The problem is not that they can't, it's they don't want to (though producers and writers can't). Another non Trek example is the popularity of the (very simple) Mandolorian.
Orville is painfully woke. It literally had an episode where GIRLBOSS overthrows a whole society because PATRIARCHY (the exact opposite of the Prime Directive, but nobody cares because GIRLBOSS), and she succeeds in doing so because GIRLBOSS. This was considered to be one of the best episodes.
Orville is woke as hell. They have a damn transgender baby episode in the first season
The Orville went Woke though, then died.
Unpopular opinion: I liked lower decks. It was a running joke of Star Trek lore that also paid homage to all series of the past. Very meta but very funny
Like how Deadpool is a satire that still respects marvel properties.
@@ParkerCS2exactly. Yeah was some of it cringy sure but the meta jokes if you got the references were amazing.
Lower Decks was thoroughly entertaining--and should have been viewed as fan fiction or parody.
We need an AI generated episode where Jim Kirk is in a Sonic Shower joined by Edith Keeler 'resetting' just about everything:)
The thing I see nobody addressing about this... If people accept Lower Decks as canon, so they can claim Discovery is non-canon, they're also accepting that Discovery IS actually CANON. You cannot accept one without the other, because while LD says Discovery isn't canon to the Prime Timeline, that just puts it in the alternate universe canon. Meaning, if you accept Lower Decks, you MUST also accept Discovery as a mirror universe situation. And same with that trashy Kelvin timeline reboot, because LD apparently shoves Discovery into Kelvin.
If you accept Lower Decks, you MUST accept Discovery. They go hand in hand, because Lower Decks canonized Discovery.
9:14 Niyat here gets what I'm getting at! Somebody actually addressed it, wow!
I think one the main things that keeps killing franchises is when they mess with the past. It's bad when a show just has a lousy series or season, but it's worse when it goes onto some how devalue the original series through time travel or prequels. Shows like Picard did nothing but absolutely destroy the character and make even watching the Next Generation painful as you can't help but know where they all end up.
The more that modern franchises do this, the easier I find it to kick the newer versions to the curb and just draw a line between old and new. I'm just about at the point where all Doctor Who after 1989 doesn't count for me again, there were only 3 Star Wars movies, James Bond ended after Pierce Brosnan's last movie, and Star Trek TNG didn't even get movies in the 1990s let alone a disappointing spin off series 20 years later. It's incredibly freeing to be able to say to oneself, "No, nothing they did to these characters later on matters, *this* is where the franchise starts and *this* is where it finishes".
@@lancebaylis3169 Very true and kind of sad. As some one who was a huge Sci nerd growing up to just not care enough to even watch most of the modern shows. I cared enough to write down all the Rules of Acquisition from Deep Space Nine into a notebook and yet I haven't seen a single episode of Lower Decks or STD. Frankly I started to get annoyed with the Enterprise series.
Which is sad in some ways, a lot of modern shows would almost be decent to good if it was just an original show and not tied to an existing brand. But that attempt to tie in sours the whole deal.
"Picard" is only acceptable as "Jean Lucs Nightmares". Dark, gritty, illogical and with all his traumata: The Borg (again, (sigh)), Datas death, Q, his mother who was sad when he left the family for the academy (she didn't die, he recognized her when he met her as an old lady in this other episode of TNG). Not to forget that he betrayed his friend Jack with his wife, so he imagines a son in the wrong age by the name of Jack. And at the end of each episode Beverly asks "Have you had a bad dream again my dear?"
@JustaGuy_Gaming Oh for sure. And I say what I say as someone who should be the target audience. I love these franchises. I should get excited every time a new movie or show based on them gets announced. But they bled all of that enthusiasm out of me.
Remember Kids! If you don't watch it, it goes away!
I was really enjoying Strange New Worlds until Anson Mount posted some crazy tweets on X. His woke tweets were just too much for me, effectively ruining the show for me. Thanks for that, Anson.
Really? I did not know that. I really love SNW.
Why deprive yourself of great television over an actors personal life or politics? That's a slippery slope. If you only knew the personal feelings of every CEO of the products you regularly purchase. Just saying
You're supposing a lot about SNW being good. At best, it's a TOS derivative that is only better relative to the shows surrounding it; at worst, it's as bad as the rest of them.
Ever since The Last Jedi, and probably long before, I have believed that the people in charge deliberately want the franchises to die. Because they are miserable people and they saw their chance to destroy other people’s happiness and enjoyment. That’s not the only reason (some of these “creatives” actually believe they are compelling and interesting) but I think it’s a majority of the reason. They saw how much we loved Star Wars and Star Trek and they were furiously jealous. So they convinced people that they were actual fans, wormed their way into the company, and set it on fire.
They've made it pretty clear they hate the fans and are trying to destroy the IP.
@ Couldn’t agree more.
To this day i still watch star trek the original, generations, ds9. Ive only watched a couple of episodes of the other series, ive never gone back to them, same with the movies.
The old Star Trek is not dead. It will live forever.
But the new woke Star Trek rots in its grave💀☠️💀
Unfortunately, nutrek tarnishes the brand, especially for new audiences. If Discovery was your first exposure to Star Trek, would you go back and watch any of the other shows? The same thing is happening with Star Wars. Disney has made so much crap that younger audiences are ignoring it now.
We are well past the point where the younger audience, who grew up with "modern" Disney and Hollywood, can be saved😂
Wasn’t Star Trek always woke for its time? It just that the ST:D writing is bad.
@rxtsang Old Star Trek was inspiring and gave hope about a better future. A good example is when President Lincoln apologizes to Lt. Uhura when he thinks he said something racist (he didn't). Uhura briefly replied that it had been a long time since they had been afraid of words.
Oh, I also wanted to say my younger brother isnt really a Trek fan, but likes some sci-fi, and is a “normie”. He called me the other day and said to me “so I watched SNW for the first time the other day…” I said oh no. What did you think?” Because he’s familiar with classic Trek and movies. He has a point of reference. And he said to me “Chris, omg, its TERRIBLE.” And he lambasted it like its nobody’s business. Only episode 6 of season 1 actually feels like Trek. One episode. And they couldn’t latch on and go with it.
Agreed.
Did ST:D actually get *worse* after Season 1 ? Really ? I thought it was unwatchable.
(In the UK STD means things like Syphilis ... seems appropriate)
Means the same thing in the US. The showrunners tried to get people to call it "Disco" but nothing doing.
STD destroyed so much canon that they literally had to move the entire show to the super-future, where it proceeded to tear down the entire universe.
@Mereologist The irony that by moving it to a future where it did led to actually ruining even more legacy - as we see how badly things have ended up, and by inference how everything ever made in the show prior to it led to something pointless - actually ended up being worse than a prequel that has no relationship to later versions of the same universe and actively undermined them. Discovery ended up undermining Star Trek from both ends of it's timeline.
Lower Decks rocked. It was my kind of humor sometimes. This was a funny jab from their writers, that got out of hand
It found itself when it stopped trying to be _Rick And Morty_ in the first couple episodes. Got better from there, ran out of steam a bit in season 4, season 5 wasn't amazing but it was alright.
Absolutely. They may have made fun of many things in Star Trek but they did it in a way that was respectful to the original. At their best they showed us a glimpse of the Star Trek I would have loved to see: Riker and Troi aboard the Titan, Rom and Leeta negotiating the Ferengi joining the Federation and so on. They "fixed" a lot of things the right way. And they always got the original actors to do the voice-acting, even if they hadn't been acting for decades. Sad that it ended, but given the lesser quality of the fifth season I have to wonder if they just decided it was time to stop before they ran out of stories.
Has been since the end of DS9
DS9 sucked. Don't believe me? Rainbow cult adored it.
@ that’s just like your opinion man
@@Skitdora2010
Do you drink water? Because every monster who has ever lived did too.
(For shame.)
Well I consider the end of Enterprise as my cutoff point. The 'Enterprise' series had a very rough start, but was doing a great job by the end of its to short run. Clearly treated the 'pre TOS' era far better then Discovery or SNW did. What little I watched of those last two pieces of garbage.
@@doberski6855: Same for me. Star Trek ended when Enterprise ended. The thing I would have changed for Enterprise is scrapping the temporal cold war/Xindi arc and instead covered the Earth-Romulan War while keeping the MACOs as a spec ops unit.
I think RazörFist has a good point. The people in charge of Star Trek nowadays, have no clue what made the francise tick in the first place. Either that or they simply refuse to understand, because in their mindset, everything old must be replaced with something new, no matter if it's worse or not.
(Because you HAVE to keep up with the times! No matter what.)
Which is a mindset one can see in almost every aspect of western society (idk if eastern society does the same thing) imo.
I call BS. I've watched both Season 1 & 2 of Strange New Worlds and it recaptures the campy feel of TOS spectacularly. It's a true spiritual successor. Now, it certainly doesn't have the "mature" feeling of DS9 or TNG but that wasn't their intent. It's set during Kirk's era and the original timeline. Strange New Worlds is the best Trek since Enterprise (better) and I'll live on that hill
@@christopherbrooksoregonboy The thing is TOS was not supposed to be campy in its time. (The TOS movies captured the orignal feel we had back then the best (especially ST:4 imo)).
SNW is a parody of something that never was. You can stay on that hill, and i stay on mine.
I have a friend who hated Trek, felt it was for nerds. He enjoys new Trek cuz its "for him". Thats their target demographic: those who hated the originals.
To the whole Garak/Bashir shipping business, one is a hologram, and neither are from each other’s universe. And considering “Gayrak” is a doctor, it’s not our Garak any more than “Julian BaQueer” is ours either. That’s why they squabble about who is moving to whom’s universe once the mission to stop all rifts is completed.
And I liked _Lower Decks_ as well as _Prodigy_ a lot. It’s just too bad the latter shit the bed at its end and was victim of the execs and bullshit if NuTrek. And I never considered them canon. Taking out what befell _Prodigy_ in Season ,2 even if both shows actually adhered properly to the original ‘64-‘05 lore, they’re animated which gives them as dubious a canon as TAS which was never acknowledged except maybe a detail or two here or there.
Oh, come on. If you're going to screw with the main-timeline character arcs that much, just make them actually different people. I loathe Multiverse writing since it's the laziest way to do a deus ex machina. It's a sign of bad writing.
@@TheJohn8765 And that little tirade has what to do with my comment? By your ranting, the Mirror Universe (as novel or overplayed as it may be) is an affront to everything because it changes everyone so profoundly. Also, the two-parter itself actually makes a very interesting counterpoint to the laziness that multiverses have been accused of where it’s nothing more than retreads of known characters being that it’salso an exploration of what we as Humans _can_ be as opposed to discovering all these non-Humans and what they are/did compared to us. Plus, while I find the whole GarakxBashir business one of the shittier parts of the two episodes, it allows them to toy with the nonexistent sexual tensions between the two for the perverted slashficcers out there without violating any canon by making straight characters magically gay while still irritating the fans nonetheless.
It lives now…only in my memories.
Imagine being given the Golden Geese of Star Wars and Star Trek, and you kill them.
How talentless do you have to be to take a winning formula and ruin it.
TOS, 6 movies, TNG, DS9, some of Voyager. That's all I need. And Galaxy Quest. And some of the Seth whatshisname show.
Star Trek needs to follow the Lucas rule: it has to go away for a while so people can miss it. It needs 10-20 years to where it becomes niche and for nerds again. I mean true pussy repellent, non-normie stuff. Then maybe… MAYBE… it can make a comeback.
Star Trek is a 20th century phenomenon. This 21st century content is something else entirely.
Startrek died with Archer, I wish they'd stop pissing on its corpse
I don't get this guys issue with Lower Decks. It's way more like old trek than he gives it credit for.. has he actually watched it properly or just got put off by the family guy art style like everyone else did before they watched it
Hell.. Prodigy and SNW are good too
i can explain it, he saw 1st season and saw a female characters and that's it, that's why he dislikes lower decks. I mean this dude literally shat on it after watching a pilot episode ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@Silentbob515that somehow doesn’t surprise me
@@Silentbob515 but he was ripping on SNW too, which turned out to be good after all too.. and that's a man leading the ship
@@goshtin Yeah, i have this feeling that he would be ripping TNG as well if it came out today!
Seriously imagine this dude watching TNG pilot for the first time, i mean can you imagine all the whining about woke stuff?
Dudes a grifter with a rather moronic community orbiting him , that's all there is to it , its not really about Star trek with him
I would disagree with TOS being the only Star Trek people really care about. TNG is as nostalgic and part of the legacy by now imho
I grew up with TNG and the later shows and love them with all my heart, but if I had to say only one thing is Star Trek then it's the original 79 episodes and 6 original movies. Everything else is second tier.
Lower Decks was actually pretty good. It was the bright spot of modern trek along with Picard season 3.
Another billion dollar franchise killed by the message
Never attribute malice to what can easily be explained by stupidity, BUT don’t rule out malice.
Kurtzman: "Continuity is irrelevant. Good writing is irrelevant. You must comply."
Picard: That'll be the day.
Not for the first 2 seasons...and tbh Season 3 was just a member berry exercise. The story was utterly stupid and had the Enterprise flying around like the Millenium Falcon.
@aldunlop4622 Picard S3 was just as bad as the first two, and suffered from all the same problems. It just had the benefit of nostalgia to help gloss over the deficiencies. But that only works so many times. Once those member berries have done their tricks, and you return for rewatches? The story falls apart as quickly as either of the other seasons. Completely smoke and mirrors.
I thought people actually liked 'Lower Decks'.
The problem with modern Trek, Wars & Who compared to the classic versions is that they feel like two different versions now, sacrificing lower budget well written intelligent drama, to now being told on a bigger budget, with flashier effects, zero character development and rushed plot. All 3 franchises ended in 2005 for me, the biggest problem now is that its written by fans of the originals and is essentially big budget fan-fic with personal views/agendas shoehorned in.
I' used to try and justify keeping parts of modern Doctor Who that I liked, at least initially. But it has collapsed under it's own steam, and the Davies Mark II era has highlighted a lot of things I disliked even about his first go in the showrunner chair. So, I've more or less done the same thing, and cut loose the whole modern version from 2005 onwards. Cut off the arm to save the patient, as the old saying goes.
@lancebaylis3169 Good Analogy. Glad you agree. At this point since RTD2, I now consider any Nu-Who from RTD1 onwards (this includes Moffatt & Chibnall) just as big budget poorly imitated/written fan-fic with modern agenda/sensabilities, just like JJ Wars & Kurtzman Trek. Fans of originals trying to mould it in their own image and not succeeding particularly well, tainting the original legacy. I did watch the majority of Nu-Who and enjoyed some of it, but something just didn't feel quite right - RTD2 has now cemented that something was off introducing sex & relationship stuff all the time. Just like Wars & Trek, am just sticking to classic OG Who going forwards. Also the colourised War Games was the cherry on top as they totally butchered and retconned it - an absolute travesty!
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I've found it never easier to ignore and drop franchises I used to love since they have become not only unrecognizable but just flat out terrible.
I've fully embraced the concept of 'personal canon', drawing my own arbitary lines for where franchises start and end and refusing anything after said points. It's actually quite empowering to be able to say, "No, nothing you did to this character later counts".
Star Trek missed out by not creating a series for Riker as captain of his own ship and show after TNG.
I will NEVER stop watching TOS + the first 6 movies.
I’ll always watch TNG.
I will never let them take them away from me.
Even Star Trek V?
I have long separated True Trek from NuTrek (everything from 2009 on).
For those old enough to remember, I compare this to the difference between Coke and New Coke. The “new” version was resoundingly rejected by the public. However, back then Coca-Cola had enough sense to stop selling New Coke and restore Coca-Cola Classic to prominence.
But alas, Paramount is not as sensible as Coca-Cola. So, for worse, we’re stuck sucking down NuTrek.
The "New Coke" is a fantastic analogy, it is a shame the producers are not as wise.
Post-Enterprise Star Trek: Lower Decks is the only canon show. Picard, Discovery, and the upcoming Section 31 and Starfleet Academy bullshit are just trash that only idiots enjoy. A case can be made for Picard season 3, but the corrective turn was a little too late, tbh. That final scene of the ginormous Galaxy-class juking and skidding like it's a fighter plane was really fucking stupid.
I personally considered the legitimate Star Trek Universe was over after Voyager, not Enterprise, Enterprise had way to many continuity issues and they did not care about it - Archer met Ferengi in the 22nd Century for the first time only for Picard to first encounter them centuries years later, Archer was the only man to escape Rura Penthe - until Captain Kirk was the first to escape the inescapable Prison.
Yeah because it's such a stretch that the Klingons wouldn't tell people that someone escaped their inescapable prison..... Picard did not "first encounter them" centuries later. They were explicitly mentioned by Riker as "like the old river traders of the 19th century" when they came across the Ferengi....
What about that episode in Voyager where they went back in time to the 90s, wouldn't that be considered a continuity issue? I don't really know, I haven't seen that one in a while and I'm genuinely curious.
ENT can get buy on it beign a direct result of First Contact. and Frengi is the one you point out. note noting said the two groups never fully met before.
the cloakign devices is the one I would pull out
And Amok Time is really no big deal, Vulcans talk about it all the time. And Romulans? WTF happened to the 100 years war between Earth and Romulus? Romulans just start out in charge of the Federation? There were SO many things wrong with that show that it was like none of the writers had even heard of Star Trek before.
@@scottwyatt2614 Absolutely right - I personally see Enterprise as where the continuity broke.
You don't need to "give (Star Wars/Star Trek) a good long rest." You just need to start making good stuff again. If something new in either of those franchises premiered tomorrow, fans would eat it up. The right people just need to be put in charge.
They need to make people care about these franchises but unfortunately these companies have done so much damage and pushed so many people away it's going to be very difficult.
Been following you for a while, love it!
Yep. It died when Enterprise ended. I liked Enterprise, overall, though the time travel stuff really are up a lot of episodes. However, everything after Enterprise, especially Pukeard, sucks!
On the question regarding which is worse, Star Wars or Star Trek, i think im non binary.
Dog shit vs cat shit
I think that question is comparatively playing in the minor leagues. What they ultimately did to Doctor Who was a degradation of epic proportions.
I would argue Star Wars is far better of, though its hard to compare. Disney produced are a lot more movies and series and on aggregate I would say half of it is actually good or at least decent (YMMV). Problem is they failed on the important half. I don't mind Rogue One and Andor being part of my personal SW-canon, same with Rebels and at least the first two seasons of the Mandalorian. And their place in the SW-timeline actually allows them being there without having to accept trash like the Sequel-trilogy, Kenobi, Book of Boba etc. But what will always mystify me is how the same people who created the first two seasons of the Mandalorian managed to make season 3 so crappy.
@@gildor8866
Star Wars is too sh*t-scared to go into the Rey-era.
It's either post-ROTJ
or
Early-rebellion/post ROTS
@@gildor8866
Mind, the Reyverse was just ANH, ESB and ROTJ but copied over someone's shoulder.
anything 2009 and beyond is terrible fanfiction, I even consider Ds9 to simply be Discovery with a leash, since it brutalized the canon in its own right. it was just the stewards of the canon had a tighter leash on the creatives until 2009 then they just let go to let them do whatever they liked. TOS, TNG, ENT, VOY, and the two sets of original/TNG movies are all I consider to be Star Trek, the rest can be dumpster'd.
I have been a Star Trek fan since 94 and I don’t understand that “hate” for Star Trek Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks. I think Strange New Worlds is one of the best new Star Trek shows around. And Lower Decks is really funny as well. I am a big fan of Simpsons, Family Guy, South Park and Rick and Morty, so maybe I’m partial to animation, but it really is good. I would love for Drinker to watch ALL of both series and let us know what he thinks. If he could have watched all of Attack on Titan and come out with a review out of nowhere he can watch Lower Decks.
SNW is awful mate. Truly awful. Dancing Klingon boy band was the jumping the shark moment for me.
That said, compared to Discovery, SNW is the greatest TV show ever made.
100% agree! I did not like JJ Abrams Movies, could not stomach Discovery and Picard at all (S3 was nice though) and was therefore sceptical regarding SNW and Lower Decks. But both shows in their own way only work, if you know your Trek! Especially lower decks is a love letter to Trek. Drinker should watch it!
@@angermanagementstudios I don’t know. I liked the musical episode. I also liked the musical Buffy one too. SNW explores a lot more of Trek. And I enjoy the new Kirk as well. The cliffhanger of season 2 was great and I am eagerly waiting for season 3.
@michaelleone9931 I like things about strange new worlds but I do agree that it has made some questionable choices.
I'll defend Lower Decks excluding season one where Kurtzman was clearly involved. But the fact that the best content an IP is putting out is from a light hearted comedy series about itself that only exists because of neglect is a clear sign that the franchise is dead.
When the characters from the animated spoof show cross over into the 'real' show and those animated parody characters come off as the most real and responsible subjects in the show compared to the rest of the cast and the writing something is wrong with your franchise.
At this point I think our only real chance at decent high Sci-fi shows is for Paradox or Digital Extremes to step up and make a series about Stellaris or Warframe.
Jean-Luc Picard: "Engage!"
*loud fart noise!