Build Science 101: #9 Vapor and Vapor Control

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  • Опубліковано 24 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 76

  • @nikojansen9648
    @nikojansen9648 Рік тому +6

    “Vapor can be a liability but it also is an asset” - great great building science quote.

    • @stipcrane
      @stipcrane 11 місяців тому

      "Vapor permeability" is a better term. Vapor per se is not an asset to building materials.

  • @DrSerendip
    @DrSerendip Рік тому +4

    We have seen houses, built in the 90’s, with the poly vapor “barrier”, that caused significant problems with condensation. We remediate mold and mold issues that cause health issues and building failures. The fiberglass insulation, which is hydrophilic adsorbs the moisture and the insulation is now saturated and enough to wring out the water from the insulation. Thanks for a great series that helps not just in building but in helping to correct issues homeowners run into.

    • @MrJohnboyofsj
      @MrJohnboyofsj Рік тому

      I've got a house build in 68 at some point was wrapped in Styrofoam on the outside has old fiberglass insulation in a 2x4 wall. The other day it was -4 C outside, the ambient air temp inside was 24 C humidity 50% and the wall surface temp was measured at 15 C at coldest in the corners. This is where I get occasional mold growth, and along the ceiling line or if any furniture is pushed up against the wall. Unfortunately the only retrofit solution I can imagine is tearing down the drywall and putting in sprayfoam to form a tighter envelope to replace that old fiberglass, increasing my wall surface temp reducing the risk of condensation and mold.

  • @pacodefrancis7235
    @pacodefrancis7235 Рік тому +3

    Great video Matt and Steve. Such an important and misunderstood topic. We all appreciate it!

  • @omarpopioco9997
    @omarpopioco9997 Місяць тому

    Absolutely, incredibly valuable information. (discussion @ 24:00) I actually ran into the exact same issue with my home built in 1989. IT took about 30 years for the problem to really tip me over the edge. We have some harsh winter climate in AB, Canada. Due to slowly gradual deteriorating attic insulation, I eventually experienced a more and more perfect condition (in attic and even some walls) to hit Dew Point under the Attic Floor Vapor barrier originally installed. For about a year I kept thinking it was a small roof leak or tiny plumbing leak that just couldn't be found. The years of collection under the barrier and not having the ability to escape at a manageable rate caused more and more favorable condition for condensing as the air gaps widened along top plates and seams and corner (not even visible the naked eye), and most noticeably around the Flue pipe chase through the first and second floor and then the penetration into the attic. It was so bad to the point where you could feel wet carpet at night as condensation accumulated once the temperature dropped and I forgot to turn up the heat a little more to fight the battle with the dew point. Extremely difficult to pinpoint, as it was more of a highly damp spray type of feel rather than a dripping pool of water.
    I had a few contractors try to help solve this (with no luck) - that didn't have the grasp of the building science. Not to blame them though, I probably was reaching out to the wrong avenues of contactors to identify the problem (roofer / plumber / hvac). It wasn't until I dove deeper into the education, and luckily very helpful videos such as this one, that I was able to solve my problem and put a stop to the cause onmy own I carefully ripped out the Vapor barrier underneath the already dying insulation, and did a proper air seal with foam around fixtures pipes and top plates. Careful application of Hi Temp Caulk to Fire stop penetrations for the Flue. And it's been quite a grateful experience since. It is quite a bit of work however - new attic installation was needed (remove of old at this point was necessary) - insulation around ducts improved a more balanced building envelope, I have not experienced any issues since.
    ***But I will admit, if I had kept up with the proper insulation R Value in the attic years ago, I could have avoided the slow accumulation under the vapor barrier over all those nights that it was unrealized. So, friendly reminder to fellow property owners - don't neglect inspecting things (we can't remember everything all the time), even if they appear like they are up to par. Open things up - take a close look... buying even a cheaper thermal camera just to get a grasp of where you are losing heat or where air can travel to can save you thousands or even tens of thousands of your hard earned coin. Understand how to apply some of this science and readings behind your tools, It's a beautiful thing to know whats happening where you can't see.

  • @robertlebaa5482
    @robertlebaa5482 Рік тому +11

    I really enjoy this show and am into the building science movement. I am not a home builder or even a remodeler per say. I have a restoration company focused on roofing, siding, and windows/doors. I would love to hear about better ways to rebuild according to building science on these restoration projects. Obviously when doing a full residing job with new windows it’s easier to see how to implement the modern products, but when doing repairs or partial replacements is it even worth “fortifying” that partial area?
    Anyways, please consider the restoration guys and show us how to do our jobs better.

  • @macoveialex6823
    @macoveialex6823 Рік тому +2

    I love this serios. All the informations needed in one place.

  • @valdius85
    @valdius85 Рік тому +2

    Thank you for tour hard work.

  • @superfunkysungod
    @superfunkysungod Рік тому +5

    This raised more questions than answers for me. The main one being do i put plastic over my insulated interior walls and ceiling, or not?

  • @marcodm
    @marcodm Рік тому +3

    Im in Montreal. I think barrier is fine for ceiling. Makes house more air tight. Winter is very dry so vapor is nice, summer is very hot and humid. AC drys it out

    • @james.telfer
      @james.telfer Рік тому

      In that case, why not have a warm roof (attic is conditioned space) and put the vapour barrier between the roof and outside air? Then you reduce winter heat loss and the entire building is the same humidity and more air tight. Also means attic space is usable year round for storage and access.

    • @marcodm
      @marcodm Рік тому +1

      I could, just means I have more space to heat/AC. Its not really that high so maybe just for storage which I really don't need. I heat 5 to 6 months so it matters

  • @ralphjean-pierre309
    @ralphjean-pierre309 7 місяців тому

    Community: I'm currently in the process of constructing a new home for my family and myself in Minneapolis, MN. I'm deliberating over whether to incorporate a vapor barrier before moving forward with drywall installation. Our building envelope consists of Zip sheathing 2.0, complemented by R17 EPS exterior insulation and R23 Rockwool insulation within the interior cavity. Additionally, we're considering integrating a Zehnder ERV system into the design. I'm particularly interested in the importance of including a vapor management, specifically a smart vapor management like INTELLO PLUS.

  • @tlangdon12
    @tlangdon12 Рік тому +1

    Vapour is your friend! While water is in vapour form, it is easy to move and get it out of the house before it becomes condensation.

    • @stipcrane
      @stipcrane 11 місяців тому

      I like your twist. H2O is the entity, vapor is Dr Jekyll, the healer; condensation is Mr. Hyde the killer.

  • @rs2024-s4u
    @rs2024-s4u Рік тому +1

    Vapor management is easier to understand if one knows that managing vapor is more about heat transfer than water all condensing surfaces are being heated by/during the transition of vapor to water and conversely all evaporating surfaces are being cooled by evaporation. Conditioning the air for comfort creates differences in inside versus outside temps. humidity between the inside and outside of a house will naturally attempt to equalize these differences unless steps are taken to replace these heat transfers either by adding heating/cooling and humidity control. Therefore most situations exterior surfaces will attempt to prevent water and water vapor from from moving into the structure and if carefully managed interior surfaces will allow/encourage water/water vapor to migrate inside providing a path for water in all its forms to dry/ equalize the conditioned spaces, this means that the interior wall temps. must be equalized with the interior air temp. as closely as practible to allow drying to occur w/o condensation. Ray Stormont

  • @greg925911
    @greg925911 Рік тому +1

    Ok, so, I'm going to go out on a limb here, I have a 7x14x 6 trailer and I have a air gap in the ceiling with thermo duct a r12 , it's amazing just how much Condensation is build up with 2 people sleeping over night, that after 8 hrs of sleeping, that it starts to drip with the Mini split at 70° and in the low 30's, do I need to close that air gap up or have more air to be moving in that area

    • @Dancing_Alone_wRentals
      @Dancing_Alone_wRentals Рік тому +1

      Didn't they say that water will condense on the cold surface? Does that mean that the outside cold is reaching your ceiling ...cooling it to the point where inside air is condensing? If I understood them, that trailer roof does not insulate well enough. How would you close that air gap?

  • @enriqueramos-castro2710
    @enriqueramos-castro2710 11 місяців тому

    you guys are thes best , can you do one video on how is the best way waterproof a flat roof on a house ?

  • @mikejarrells431
    @mikejarrells431 Рік тому +2

    Thanks guys. I'm a noob doing my first fixer upper remodel. I'm using your videos to educate myself so I build smarter, not harder. Right now I'm doing a crawl space encapsulation with poly (barrier?). You say avoid vapor barriers (poly), but you say air management is a higher priority than vapor management. Why not use poly as an air management layer? Will it encourage condensation & mold? Right now I'm using a paper vapor retarder (older leaky house) in zone 4. Current building theory suggests buildings in this zone need to breath (dry both ways).

    • @TheCookster64
      @TheCookster64 Рік тому +2

      The rule I go by is that in the North you want the vapor barrier to be on the inside of the home, in the South you want the vapor barrier on the outside.

  • @rikmorel4870
    @rikmorel4870 Рік тому

    I'm currently building a small RV camper made with 2x3 wall stud construction and 2x4 studs for the roof, plywood sheathing with a Soprema SOPRASEAL® STICK VP WRB, Rockwool insulation in the walls and pink insulation in the ceiling. The outer skin will be RV aluminum. I'm about to add poly on the inside walls as an air barrier and my thought is that the Soprema wrb will allow any moisture that penetrates in the wall to exit via that membrane. Thoughts? The outside roof material is EPDM rubber so what about putting poly on the inside roof? is this even needed?

  • @gastonignacioarias1894
    @gastonignacioarias1894 Рік тому

    SALUDOS DESDE ARGENTINA . EXELENTE APORTE A LOS AMANTES DE LAS CONSTRUCCIONES . GRACIAS POR EL APORTE

  • @TomDAwn1
    @TomDAwn1 8 місяців тому

    maybe not a vapor issue per se, but what is your opinion on the following - older house near Memphis, TN about 125 yrs. no A/C but they run dehumidifiers (but not all the time) in the summer. They're having mold problems. Is my thinking flawed - if moist air wants to move to drier air like warm goes to cold could dehumidifiers be making the RH problem in the house worse? There is an attic fan. Would air movement maybe be a better option than only running dehumidifiers occasionally? Thank you

  • @levijones7453
    @levijones7453 Рік тому +2

    What app is Steve using on his IPad?

  • @markstipulkoski1389
    @markstipulkoski1389 3 місяці тому

    I live in Florida with high humidity. My attic is vented, lots of soffit ventilation and much less ridge ventilation. My attic is extremely humid but my a.c. keeps my house near 50% RH. There is no vapor membrane whatsoever in the ceiling. Just paint, drywall, and blown-in insulation between me and my 140F 90% R attic. So the problem here in the humid South is keeping the humidity out, not trying to remove it as might be the case in Boston. I wish I had a vapor membrane with a low permeability in my ceiling to help keep the attic humidity out of my living space. Opposite of getting interior humidity buildup to the cold dry exterior. The climate zone needs to enter into these discussions.

  • @speedbird300
    @speedbird300 Рік тому +4

    I think Steve is wrong about the ceiling, it’s all part of the management approach. As ping as the interior air of the house has active management like MVHR then a barrier is a good idea - there’s probably insulation over the ceiling and you don’t want lots of moisture going up and condensing in the cold roof void even if it’s vented.

    • @andreycham4797
      @andreycham4797 Рік тому +1

      I would agree with you too . Besides that that poly works as air barrier which all together allows attic insulation to perform much better.

  • @billsnyder6945
    @billsnyder6945 8 місяців тому

    I watched these videos, and no idea the right answer for remodeling a bathroom in an 80s house in Colorado Zone 5, a very arid climate, but still not sure what is the right thing to do is. The outside wall had poly, guessing 6 mil. Parts of the ceiling to vented roof has some too. Do I remove it, keep it - fixing any holes, or replace it with something else, and what would that be?

  • @davidw7643
    @davidw7643 Місяць тому

    What's your opinion on sip walls?

  • @bols82
    @bols82 11 місяців тому

    What about below deck of a tub, I’d like to put mineral wool the one exterior wall opposite of spout side. Balloon framed. Kerdi board is going above deck. Thanks

  • @CMbassin
    @CMbassin Рік тому

    I bought a home here in VT. There was no WRB on the OSB sheathing from the beginning. Rot under the windows and deck let mice and bugs in. I replaced the sheathing, siding, doors and windows and deck. The sheathing is Zip system caulked on at the perimeter, nailed and taped. Now I’m trying to re do the inside and I have the drywall down. I can’t insulate the house more than one wall at a time without the exterior sheathing condensating on the back side if I don’t install 6mil poly as I go and it’s got to be caulked on and rolled. I’ve decided to install an hrv system to help deal with the vapor in the air but trying to live here and do the project in winter, by myself has been really difficult just because of vapor and not being able to close the walls up in a hurry.

    • @kk-pz8gn
      @kk-pz8gn 11 місяців тому

      what does hrv system stand for? thanks

    • @CMbassin
      @CMbassin 11 місяців тому +1

      @@kk-pz8gn heat recovery ventilator. ERV is Energy instead of heat and more common down south.

  • @Vladthelad129
    @Vladthelad129 Рік тому

    As somebody located in a very humid and cold Nordic environment, I see it being near impossible to leave out the usage of damp proofing membranes as you are inviting mold creation in the construction. We would avoid using even smart barriers since it is not guarenteed that temperatures get high enough during summer moths for a period long enough for them to release the accumulated dampness in the constructions. There have been some recent successful experiements with super-tight prefabricate housing that allows for them to be left out, however we do not know yet how these will perform in the next few years.

    • @inventor1214
      @inventor1214 Рік тому

      Do you put the membrane on the outside or inside of the insulation?

  • @AlaskaLivingTiny
    @AlaskaLivingTiny Рік тому

    Uggh, HeLP! i am under construction (12×32) in Alaska. 2x6 walls with: tyvek/ 7/16 plywood/ R21 fiberglass batts. DIY build. I have 6 mil poly almost everywhere. Had to do some wiring rework where I didn't have poly up for approx 2 weeks. Sub freezing temps hit and i noticed condensation behind insulation where no poly was. How worried should I be that this has the ability to dry/or be absorbed by plywood?

    • @rozinant1237
      @rozinant1237 Рік тому +2

      The whole reason you use Tyvek is because it has the ability to breathe out any trapped moisture in the wall. When the building envelope heats up again it should be released.

    • @CMbassin
      @CMbassin Рік тому +1

      I have a similar problem here in VT. Trying to redo my interior in winter and if I insulate a wall and go to bed and come back to work on it the next day, it’s wet on the backside of the plywood. I think it’s very important in a cold climate to install 6mil poly and be very detail oriented when installing it. I caulked it on and sealed around any penetrations that may allow air/vapor ridden air into the wall. Going to leave one wall with just the VB on it and peel it back in a couple months to see what I find. If not moisture or mold then I’ll know especially after drywall is installed over it we’re good. This whole thing has made me re think the holes in exterior walls we make when we hang pictures and things

  • @speedbird300
    @speedbird300 Рік тому

    Ping->long. Also familiar with barrier that stops liquid but vents vapour, as per roof membrane, but not selective directional vapour, be interested to hear more about that and related detaiiling.

  • @iztherelife1340
    @iztherelife1340 13 днів тому

    We have hot and cold and it can be a daily temp fluctuation. We are typically high humidity year around. There has to be a catch all tried and true system to follow But the more I watch these videos and read comments the more frustrated I get. We are just DIY home owners designing our next project and would like to get it right since we'll be retiring in the next one

  • @bryanthomas544
    @bryanthomas544 Рік тому

    So no plastic on ceiling, and only perm vapor barrier on interior or exterior wall but not both?

  • @ridethetalk
    @ridethetalk Рік тому

    @buildshow I'm considering using SIPs with colorbond steel skins - these are likely going to be a vapour barrier i.e. impermeable - is this a bad idea?

    • @stipcrane
      @stipcrane 11 місяців тому

      Probably depends where and how you use them. Alaska had a bad experience with SIPS used as cathedral ceiling/roof structures. Humid air rises, and in a vaulted ceiling will collect at the highest point and want to escape (or equalize, whatever your terminology). Few if any were able to seal that joint between the panels 100%. Vapor created lots of condensation in the cold temps. The OSB rotted quite quickly, and the roofing would fail as well soon after.

  • @Dancing_Alone_wRentals
    @Dancing_Alone_wRentals Рік тому

    After reading the comments.....I'm baffled and resort to facial expressions 27:33

  • @Dancing_Alone_wRentals
    @Dancing_Alone_wRentals Рік тому +1

    Okay, So what was the problem with the plastic sheet across the roof? tHanks all

  • @gpappas5833
    @gpappas5833 Рік тому

    I would never put plastic behind drywall. I've seen many service calls where the insulation is wet and moldy. Don't trap the moisture.

  • @jesinbeverly
    @jesinbeverly Рік тому

    I’ve noticed that interiors need to be at least primed in order to get a certificate of occupancy. Is this because paint is considered a control element?

    • @rozinant1237
      @rozinant1237 Рік тому +1

      Latex paints have a perm rating. It’s possible they meet the standard of vapor retarder in your area.

    • @stipcrane
      @stipcrane 11 місяців тому

      Latex paint has a perm rating of about 10. Vapor retarder primer has a perm rating of 1. It used to be part of Washington's energy code, but it wasn't ever inspected in earnest and builders quit doing it. I only do the ceilings under attics now. We've had occasional problems with mold/mildew growing on the underside of the roof sheathing on vented roofs. It could be simply horrible air sealing around recessed can lights and bath fans. Whether mold is caused by air flow or permeation, I don't take chances.

  • @Mcv2023
    @Mcv2023 Рік тому

    What about tyvec on outside does that breathe

    • @rozinant1237
      @rozinant1237 Рік тому +1

      Yes, it breathes water vapor and blocks water droplets. That’s the reason you are paying big bucks for it.

  • @charlesviner1565
    @charlesviner1565 Рік тому

    👍

  • @rozinant1237
    @rozinant1237 Рік тому +5

    You might want to be careful endorsing a concept of no vapor retarder at the ceiling plane. Both the US and Canadian building codes require it. Both of these organizations have done huge amounts of research in this area. Vented attic spaces are intended to ventilate excess heat not moisture. You yourself say that any humidity would be equalized down to a minimal point as soon as it mingles with outside air ( in the attic). Excess heat in an attic space can be damaging to roofing materials.

    • @stevenbaczekarchitect9431
      @stevenbaczekarchitect9431 Рік тому +1

      They are tied to climate zone, as I said in the video

    • @ladsonbeach5438
      @ladsonbeach5438 Рік тому

      Steve’s final comment regarding poly on a ceiling got my attention also. Relative humidity equilibrium is the key concept here. In a warm humid climate, such as we have here in South Carolina, outdoor relative humidity will almost always exceed a comfortable indoor humidity level. I would think that some type of vapor control membrane in the ceiling would be required, especially if thermal control is taken into consideration. Great video dealing with the fundamental concepts of building envelope design.

    • @ebros3
      @ebros3 11 місяців тому +1

      For majority of people that can’t afford a complex roof system and goes with asphalt shingles, but still want a tight house with Zip and spray foam, haven’t heard any discuss the fact that roofing manufacturers are excluding unvented roofs from warranty coverage. Suggestions? Looking at SmartBaffle, but that will create a massive challenge to air seal everything before insulation applied.

  • @jonerlandson1956
    @jonerlandson1956 Рік тому +1

    what's the order?... water... air... insulation and vapor?

    • @nikdoznamej7698
      @nikdoznamej7698 Рік тому +3

      depends on the climate zone. in hot humid climates the humidity is on the outside, while in cold climates in winter the humidity is on the inside

  • @deanpeterson3495
    @deanpeterson3495 Рік тому +2

    This is how it was explained to me in regard to vapor barrier in the ceiling: Here in MN with the cold winters and the far higher RH inside the house there is a great deal of latent heat energy in the water vapor. By just letting it out the ceiling and out the roof vents you are increasing energy loss. Air exchangers can recoup much of the latent heat instead of letting it escape up and out. I suppose a retarder would perform fine but poly in the ceiling with a properly functioning attic are the rule here.

    • @walterhiegel3020
      @walterhiegel3020 Рік тому +1

      So lets assume you are correct. My question to you would be how does the moisture inside the house get into the attic so that its excellent ventilation properties can remove that moisture? I am just trying to understand. I am not a builder just a dumb homeowner with an engineering degree who lives 30 miles from the gulf coast where the humidity is normally above 60% and usually higher.

    • @rozinant1237
      @rozinant1237 Рік тому

      @@walterhiegel3020Be very careful! What works in MN does not work in Florida. Consult builders in your local area, to see what works best in your locale.

  • @mojodojo5533
    @mojodojo5533 Рік тому

    Do I get some kind of professional credits watching this? If not WHY!!

  • @nannesoar
    @nannesoar Рік тому

    nice background music

  • @Knappconstruction
    @Knappconstruction Рік тому +2

    First!

    • @shawnshurtz9147
      @shawnshurtz9147 Рік тому

      You should probably use it to ask something profound, not be a tool.

    • @dbarrington1
      @dbarrington1 Рік тому

      your just mad he beat you... lol@@shawnshurtz9147

  • @alvaro_bf
    @alvaro_bf 8 місяців тому

    Matt, after a video like this, have you changed your mind about materials such on ua-cam.com/video/xPXcnioVBFw/v-deo.htmlsi=ovMritCvS1eUgNle
    wich was labeled as non permeable and efficient?

  • @coolestrock2008
    @coolestrock2008 Рік тому +1

    Yet again, i would like to point out that scientifically, water vapor is air. You *cannot* have a membrane that is an air barrier but not a vapor barrier. Steve and Matt, i love that you are getting rid of the word barrier for vapor. But that same logic should apply for air as well. because vapor is present in air. its not a separate thing.

    • @stevenbaczekarchitect9431
      @stevenbaczekarchitect9431 Рік тому

      So what do you say to Tyvek - It is basically vapor open, but is an air barrier? Or SIga Majvest?

    • @Jaker788
      @Jaker788 3 місяці тому

      You can absolutely transfer moisture from air into separate air through some type of barrier. Just look at ERVs, they use a vapor permeable heat exchanger to allow some movement of vapor, but there is no air mixing whatsoever.
      The air barriers that allow some vapor permeation are as far as you can measure and as far as it matters beyond tiny amounts of potential diffusion, air tight. But they allow a small amount of moisture in the air content to diffuse through the barrier to let things dry out. It's a very small amount compared to nothing, but it's a lot more than vapor barriers.

  • @Living_Despite
    @Living_Despite Рік тому

    Native tribes also practiced enslaving rival tribes so maybe some things were meant to end. It wasnt genocide, it was Conquerism. Y'all lost. Get over it.

  • @TheDanishGuy60
    @TheDanishGuy60 Рік тому +3

    Great videos, but no background music/noise - PLEASE.

  • @iztherelife1340
    @iztherelife1340 13 днів тому

    We have hot and cold and it can be a daily temp fluctuation. We are typically high humidity year around. There has to be a catch all tried and true system to follow But the more I watch these videos and read comments the more frustrated I get. We are just DIY home owners designing our next project and would like to get it right since we'll be retiring in the next one