It seems in so many novels and movies the villain of a hero romance changes to be good, but what if he was so corrupt by the chaos in his soul? Love was only a myth. A darkness that no light could bring in. Lives were merely pawns in his trickster schemes. The biggest lie he could ever get anyone to believe that he does not exist. It was simply unfortunate luck & bad dreams. She does not know she was hunting him.
I love platonic versions of this, like how Will Turner and Elizabeth Swann become fond of Jack Sparrow in the Pirates of Caribbean movies. Or Moana and Maui
The one I can think of is Caroline & Klaus, those were my favorite couple characters from the Vampire Diaries series, ,they had a good chemistry and a very slow burn romance between them however they never got together at the end of the show sadly 😥
OMG that's what I needed 💕 I already have my way to make it work. Kinda got it from enemies-to-lovers, bc I never found an article or video on people discussing it, so this video is perfect!
When you said shared secrets between the hero and villain that no one else knows, I thought: what if one of them had a severe, paralyzing phobia? They get into a situation where the phobia is revealed and the other one chooses to help the one with the phobia. The vulnerability shown and the choice of the one not to take advantage of the other’s vulnerability in the midst of their hero / villain fight dynamic could be a great opportunity to start that slow shift in perception. It could be that hint of the redemption that’s possible for the villain. Fear humanizes anyone. And it’s also telling how people react when they see that in another person especially their enemy. Do they take advantage or reach out a helping hand even if for only a few seconds! Say for instance the hero has a paralyzing fear of heights but can’t avoid being in a high place while fighting with the villain. When the villain sees the hero is in trouble they don’t press the advantage, they stand down and help. And not only that, they keep the secret so no one else can use it against them either. Then they’re both left asking themselves the question “Why did I (you) do that?” The answer to that question becomes the Story, even if the acrimony continues for awhile after that. The door has still been opened ☺️. This isn’t an example of this idea but I thought about Loki and how I always wished Marvel had him fall for someone in the feature films he’s in. Instead, they went with showing his humanity via his love for his brother (Thor) but that wasn’t the same for me 😂😂 Then the Loki series came out and Marvel must have heard me! 😂😂. Even if they made the person he fell for a female variant of himself, I was thrilled to see Loki navigating the space outside of his comfort zone. Truly compelling to watch. Love your videos Ladies! Hope you both are well!
@@SourGravity Hey thanks! I appreciate that. I’ve written the idea down in a “to consider” / brain dump file because I can see a scene up on a rooftop playing out in my head 🤔☺️. I’m thinking about an action scene but the beauty about the concept of fear is that it is so universal that you can use it in any genre and it will fit! Kate and Abbie often spark inspiration and insight and get me thinking of things in new ways. I’m really thankful for their generosity with their knowledge and the time they take to do these videos. Take care!
While watching this video, I had a thought of like... the hero getting corrupted by the villian through out the story/series. I am just unsure how to do that. Could you two possibly make a video covering that?
My favorite is Tanis and Kitiara in Dragonlance chronicles because that she constantly abuse him like a villain would, but he loves her all the same against his own better judgement. That felt like a realistic error on Tanis part.
As an Indian, I love the way Kate seems to have accepted our culture. The small things like her joining hands as greeting and writing Namaste in her posts or wearing beads in her hands... It is so good to see a foreigner respecting our ways.
The one book series I can recall with this concept is Kim Harrisons, the Hallows, series between the heroin Rachel and the primary antagonist Trent. Overall, it was done well, and by the end, you are rooting for them to be together. As it's 13 books, you get a decent slow burn and character progressing for both.
Dracula and other vampire stories have also been some of my favorite stories where the villain is in love with the protagonist. But these often tend to be one-sided love stories, or the protagonist develops Stockholm Syndrome. Needless to say, the trope is inspirational and makes for some interesting writing.
It's not in a book, but one of my favorite examples of a romance storyline (albeit one-sided) between a hero and a villain is in the musical Anastasia. The Bolshevik general Gleb falls in love with Anya, despite having orders to kill the Romanov family (and any remaining members of their line). It's this internal conflict makes his choice between honoring his duty and following his heart difficult for him to decide what he should do when he has the chance to kill her. He's a complex antagonist (and he's played by the gorgeous and very talented Ramin Karimloo, so that helps), not a caricature, which makes him so interesting and sympathetic.
@@LisaPais-e8d The part about Briennde being captured by the outlaws and Jaime following her didn't happen in the TV-show, so maybe their relationship would have happened differently in the books if GRRM had ever finished them.
@@larssjostrom6565 I believe though that GRRM told the show runners how the story ends and they had to hit those major beats. While they might get to that ending differently and probably much more gradually, it's likely that book Jaime will also leave Brienne to return to Cersei (if the books are ever finished, that is). I suppose though that GRRM may be aware of how unpopular that narrative was and change it if he is able to.
@@saoirserubio536 I hope that he write the books without changing anything. In the book the future-teller said that Cercei would be killed by her little brother, which she thinks means Tyrion. But since Jaime came out of their mother after her he qualifies as well, and that would be a twist typical of GRRM whom always to go against reader expectations. But most likely we will never know how it would have played out.
As always you'll really make us- listeners, fans, the mesmerized, whatever you may call us-sit back and contemplate. Your discourse is always, most eloquent, absorbing, and loaded with usable content. You two sisters have had a profound and positive impact on my writer's journey. 'Namaste' to Kate and 'Sis you Rock' to Abbie😄😁😃😊( Opp!s sometimes I tend to forget I'm a boomer and should be using more age-appropriate praise words...like positively stupendous I say!)😸
This is so great, I REALLY want to write one of these relationships now. And I haven't read one that I like yet, so your guys' is probably going to be the first one and I have a feeling I'm going to adore it!
My favorite is the carry on trilogy by rainbow Rowell. Neither of them are really heroes or villains they're just kids who were told to do shit by adults they trusted. It's a good trilogy.
That's a good point I hadn't thought of. Now that you did, I'm thinking Buffy and Angel. Though I liked them as a couple. Hated it when she was into Spike though.
@@LisaPais-e8d Buffy literally killed Angel and sent him to hell after he lost his soul. He was tortured for 400 hell years then returned with his soul. Giving him a second chance was not ignoring the harm he caused, although there was still a great scene where Giles called her on it. Now I’m the British version of Being Human and Vampire Diaries and far too many YA books, the vampire is spared by the heroine (or other) and goes on to kill again and I HATE that.
HEY ABBIE! I have a request for a video that may be difficult. I'm writing a high-fantasy adventure novel, and the two MCs are actually a couple planning to be married that are separated by extreme circumstances (a growing empire enslaving their village to grow their territory). I'm planning on a fake-out negative character arc for the man who SEEMS to be becoming the villain of the story but actually ends up being the ultimate hero in the end (risks his life for his people and the love of his life while they all still believe he's the villain). Here's my question: do you have any tips or tricks for writers like me who want to FAKE a negative character arc, but actually have it be a positive character arc? Can I accomplish this in first-person writing? Or will I have to write in third person if I really want my readers to be surprised by this type of development? THANK YOU!
I have thought of something similar with my story. I like the idea of lovers turning to enemies and then turns out the other person has not forgotten his/her promise but instead follow through a path that saves his/her love ones although at his/her expense. They say the best lies have some measure of truth. In my story, the female character went thru a negative arc but there will always be a part of her that equally loves / resents the other character. I woukd rather have an anti hero though. My "villain" character shifts allegiances but helps the "hero" in critical moments. However, realizing they are toxic, in my story she would stay away. They would eventually find peace but thinking that being together meant ruin, she would choose to finally leave. In my mind, the opposite of love is not hatred but apathy. Personally, I prefer a 3rd person POV. Maybe it's easier to show a person's thoughts in 1st person but it seems unnatural to me. That's just my preference though.
@@LemonLimeKingdom3000 the answer is "yes because it already exists" Adora(hero) and Catra(villain) are both women and were given as a (relatively) well known example
I love Cecilia Grant's historical romances. In A Gentleman Undone, an honourable Waterloo veteran teams up with a cardsharp concubine, who is really NOT a "nice" woman, for most of the novel. It's brilliantly done.
So in order to make this work there would have to be a very peculiar sort of dynamic between the two, founded on the pillars of mutual complementariness as well as necessity. You can't possibly get more toxic and codependent than that.😂
I think a key element would be for them to them both be vulnerable with each other to a degree. It would help if they were united in purpose and not directly competing, as trying to get the better of each other would incentivize them to take advantage and make restraint less believable. Perhaps in their efforts to achieve that common goal, they get to know one another really well, and when the time comes to put that goal above the other's wellbeing, villain A realize that villain B has become more important than their original goal. Could have some juicy drama if B still values the goal over love and feels betrayed, forcing A to confess their feelings for B and see how B reacts. Maybe knowing it's mutual changes B's perspective, or maybe not, in which case A will need to find a way to achieve that goal while not sacrificing B. Or if could be a tragedy where A helps B reach that goal even though it means losing B.
My favorite example of a hero/villain romance is [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] from our co-written series, [REDACTED] 😍😂
😂😂😂😂😂💕💕💕.
It seems in so many novels and movies the villain of a hero romance changes to be good, but what if he was so corrupt by the chaos in his soul? Love was only a myth. A darkness that no light could bring in. Lives were merely pawns in his trickster schemes. The biggest lie he could ever get anyone to believe that he does not exist. It was simply unfortunate luck & bad dreams. She does not know she was hunting him.
😮😄
I love platonic versions of this, like how Will Turner and Elizabeth Swann become fond of Jack Sparrow in the Pirates of Caribbean movies.
Or Moana and Maui
He isnt really evil though
The one I can think of is Caroline & Klaus, those were my favorite couple characters from the Vampire Diaries series, ,they had a good chemistry and a very slow burn romance between them however they never got together at the end of the show sadly 😥
OMG that's what I needed 💕
I already have my way to make it work. Kinda got it from enemies-to-lovers, bc I never found an article or video on people discussing it, so this video is perfect!
When you said shared secrets between the hero and villain that no one else knows, I thought: what if one of them had a severe, paralyzing phobia? They get into a situation where the phobia is revealed and the other one chooses to help the one with the phobia.
The vulnerability shown and the choice of the one not to take advantage of the other’s vulnerability in the midst of their hero / villain fight dynamic could be a great opportunity to start that slow shift in perception. It could be that hint of the redemption that’s possible for the villain.
Fear humanizes anyone. And it’s also telling how people react when they see that in another person especially their enemy. Do they take advantage or reach out a helping hand even if for only a few seconds!
Say for instance the hero has a paralyzing fear of heights but can’t avoid being in a high place while fighting with the villain. When the villain sees the hero is in trouble they don’t press the advantage, they stand down and help. And not only that, they keep the secret so no one else can use it against them either.
Then they’re both left asking themselves the question “Why did I (you) do that?” The answer to that question becomes the Story, even if the acrimony continues for awhile after that. The door has still been opened ☺️.
This isn’t an example of this idea but I thought about Loki and how I always wished Marvel had him fall for someone in the feature films he’s in. Instead, they went with showing his humanity via his love for his brother (Thor) but that wasn’t the same for me 😂😂
Then the Loki series came out and Marvel must have heard me! 😂😂. Even if they made the person he fell for a female variant of himself, I was thrilled to see Loki navigating the space outside of his comfort zone. Truly compelling to watch.
Love your videos Ladies! Hope you both are well!
@@SourGravity Hey thanks! I appreciate that. I’ve written the idea down in a “to consider” / brain dump file because I can see a scene up on a rooftop playing out in my head 🤔☺️. I’m thinking about an action scene but the beauty about the concept of fear is that it is so universal that you can use it in any genre and it will fit!
Kate and Abbie often spark inspiration and insight and get me thinking of things in new ways. I’m really thankful for their generosity with their knowledge and the time they take to do these videos.
Take care!
While watching this video, I had a thought of like... the hero getting corrupted by the villian through out the story/series. I am just unsure how to do that. Could you two possibly make a video covering that?
My favorite is Tanis and Kitiara in Dragonlance chronicles because that she constantly abuse him like a villain would, but he loves her all the same against his own better judgement. That felt like a realistic error on Tanis part.
Also because he finally realized he couldn’t fix her. Awww.
Good point.
As an Indian, I love the way Kate seems to have accepted our culture. The small things like her joining hands as greeting and writing Namaste in her posts or wearing beads in her hands... It is so good to see a foreigner respecting our ways.
Could you show examples?
Reminds me of Strange Magic.
The one book series I can recall with this concept is Kim Harrisons, the Hallows, series between the heroin Rachel and the primary antagonist Trent.
Overall, it was done well, and by the end, you are rooting for them to be together. As it's 13 books, you get a decent slow burn and character progressing for both.
Yes, that's a great series. I'm thinking about reading it again. I loved the way it started. A which, a vampire, and a fairy walk into a bar... 🤣
Dracula and other vampire stories have also been some of my favorite stories where the villain is in love with the protagonist. But these often tend to be one-sided love stories, or the protagonist develops Stockholm Syndrome. Needless to say, the trope is inspirational and makes for some interesting writing.
It's not in a book, but one of my favorite examples of a romance storyline (albeit one-sided) between a hero and a villain is in the musical Anastasia. The Bolshevik general Gleb falls in love with Anya, despite having orders to kill the Romanov family (and any remaining members of their line). It's this internal conflict makes his choice between honoring his duty and following his heart difficult for him to decide what he should do when he has the chance to kill her. He's a complex antagonist (and he's played by the gorgeous and very talented Ramin Karimloo, so that helps), not a caricature, which makes him so interesting and sympathetic.
I don't think this has ever been done better than Jaime and Brienne in GoT/ASOIAF.
Yes, it broke my heart when Jaime went back to Cerci.
@@LisaPais-e8d The part about Briennde being captured by the outlaws and Jaime following her didn't happen in the TV-show, so maybe their relationship would have happened differently in the books if GRRM had ever finished them.
@@larssjostrom6565 I believe though that GRRM told the show runners how the story ends and they had to hit those major beats. While they might get to that ending differently and probably much more gradually, it's likely that book Jaime will also leave Brienne to return to Cersei (if the books are ever finished, that is). I suppose though that GRRM may be aware of how unpopular that narrative was and change it if he is able to.
@@saoirserubio536 I hope that he write the books without changing anything. In the book the future-teller said that Cercei would be killed by her little brother, which she thinks means Tyrion. But since Jaime came out of their mother after her he qualifies as well, and that would be a twist typical of GRRM whom always to go against reader expectations. But most likely we will never know how it would have played out.
As always you'll really make us- listeners, fans, the mesmerized, whatever you may call us-sit back and contemplate. Your discourse is always, most eloquent, absorbing, and loaded with usable content. You two sisters have had a profound and positive impact on my writer's journey. 'Namaste' to Kate and 'Sis you Rock' to Abbie😄😁😃😊( Opp!s sometimes I tend to forget I'm a boomer and should be using more age-appropriate praise words...like positively stupendous I say!)😸
Wowowowow, I can't wait to read your guys' co-authored series!
This is so great, I REALLY want to write one of these relationships now. And I haven't read one that I like yet, so your guys' is probably going to be the first one and I have a feeling I'm going to adore it!
Here we gooooooo!!! This is what I've been waiting for!🤩
donno about romance but im simply inspired by the way kate looks at abbie
My favorite is the carry on trilogy by rainbow Rowell. Neither of them are really heroes or villains they're just kids who were told to do shit by adults they trusted. It's a good trilogy.
Perfect timing!!!
Good chat - thank you
You two are amazing as always!! Thank you so much!!!
Phoebe and Cole from Charmed!
That's also the one that came to mind. How I loved that series.
And Spike and Buffy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer! (Or Damon and Elena from Vampire Diaries 😊)
Thanks for the great tips, as always.
Hate it when the MC falls in love with someone who hurts and kills others, as if she just doesn't care what happened to the innocent victims.
*Cough cough* Rise of Skywalker
@@rubenduenas5881 🤣
That's a good point I hadn't thought of. Now that you did, I'm thinking Buffy and Angel. Though I liked them as a couple. Hated it when she was into Spike though.
@@LisaPais-e8d Buffy literally killed Angel and sent him to hell after he lost his soul. He was tortured for 400 hell years then returned with his soul. Giving him a second chance was not ignoring the harm he caused, although there was still a great scene where Giles called her on it. Now I’m the British version of Being Human and Vampire Diaries and far too many YA books, the vampire is spared by the heroine (or other) and goes on to kill again and I HATE that.
Acolyte, SNEEZE
HEY ABBIE! I have a request for a video that may be difficult. I'm writing a high-fantasy adventure novel, and the two MCs are actually a couple planning to be married that are separated by extreme circumstances (a growing empire enslaving their village to grow their territory). I'm planning on a fake-out negative character arc for the man who SEEMS to be becoming the villain of the story but actually ends up being the ultimate hero in the end (risks his life for his people and the love of his life while they all still believe he's the villain). Here's my question: do you have any tips or tricks for writers like me who want to FAKE a negative character arc, but actually have it be a positive character arc? Can I accomplish this in first-person writing? Or will I have to write in third person if I really want my readers to be surprised by this type of development?
THANK YOU!
I have thought of something similar with my story. I like the idea of lovers turning to enemies and then turns out the other person has not forgotten his/her promise but instead follow through a path that saves his/her love ones although at his/her expense. They say the best lies have some measure of truth. In my story, the female character went thru a negative arc but there will always be a part of her that equally loves / resents the other character. I woukd rather have an anti hero though. My "villain" character shifts allegiances but helps the "hero" in critical moments. However, realizing they are toxic, in my story she would stay away. They would eventually find peace but thinking that being together meant ruin, she would choose to finally leave. In my mind, the opposite of love is not hatred but apathy.
Personally, I prefer a 3rd person POV. Maybe it's easier to show a person's thoughts in 1st person but it seems unnatural to me. That's just my preference though.
Can there be a hero-and-villain romance with both of them having the same sex?
Adora and Catra from Netflix's "She-Ra and the Princesses of Power" comes to mind. It's also a really good show imo!
Can you please answer my previous question about hero-and-villain romance?
@@LemonLimeKingdom3000 the answer is "yes because it already exists" Adora(hero) and Catra(villain) are both women and were given as a (relatively) well known example
Fudo and Desumi from Love After World Domination 🤩
Adora and Katra from SHE-RA 😊❤
The first story of this sort that I have seen was You've Got Mail (1998; Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan).
One of the best examples of hero/villain love entanglements is in dragonlance between Tanis half elven and Kitara.
I love Cecilia Grant's historical romances. In A Gentleman Undone, an honourable Waterloo veteran teams up with a cardsharp concubine, who is really NOT a "nice" woman, for most of the novel. It's brilliantly done.
I'm curious to see a story where the villain falls in love with the hero, but the hero doesn't love them back. Any recommendations?
Red Queen
@@mrslisawiebe By Victoria Aveyard?
@@leigh-anjohnson Yes! I quite enjoyed the series.
@@mrslisawiebe What happens when the villain falls in love?
So in order to make this work there would have to be a very peculiar sort of dynamic between the two, founded on the pillars of mutual complementariness as well as necessity. You can't possibly get more toxic and codependent than that.😂
Beauty and the Beast!!
Kevin and Jane 27 dresses
Wow, ad account limits solved!
How to write a romance between two villains?
I think a key element would be for them to them both be vulnerable with each other to a degree. It would help if they were united in purpose and not directly competing, as trying to get the better of each other would incentivize them to take advantage and make restraint less believable. Perhaps in their efforts to achieve that common goal, they get to know one another really well, and when the time comes to put that goal above the other's wellbeing, villain A realize that villain B has become more important than their original goal. Could have some juicy drama if B still values the goal over love and feels betrayed, forcing A to confess their feelings for B and see how B reacts. Maybe knowing it's mutual changes B's perspective, or maybe not, in which case A will need to find a way to achieve that goal while not sacrificing B. Or if could be a tragedy where A helps B reach that goal even though it means losing B.
Samson & Delilah.
Undo the pain and make me enwrap her.
Abbie Emmons: the prettier and more youthful-looking sister
Kate Emmons: the older and seemingly more mature sister
I'm not sure why you thought this needed to be said.