Indeed. The problem is not tropes themselves, the problem is when writers just throw in tropes without really understanding them and their purpose in a story. Instead of trying to avoid them, it is better to understand them and use them with intent. As with the cooking analogy - it would be like one would-be chef just throwing anything into their dish without any regard for its texture, flavor profile and how it fits in with the rest of the dish as a whole; even if they cook something good, it's just by pure accident and probably still not as good as it could have been. Instead a chef who takes the time to understand their ingredients will make great dishes regularly with intent.
I feel like how often that is used and the writing itself kinda brings meaning to it. For example, in the East (Japan, Korea, China) there's this 3 whole ass cliche story genre where 90% is copied from each other. Japan: Isekai China: Sects Korea: Reincarnation/System (As in characters from one of the stories is nearly identical to other stories of the same genre) It's specifically getting horrible in the Isekai Genre. It's gotten to a point where the new ones doesn't really explain that much details because it assumes that you know something about the genre even before watching it. That's how many they're racking up every year. (Roughly 15-20 Isekai Shows every year) Anyway, the overall point here is that when a thrope is overused, you'd subconsciously hate on it regardless of how good written it is.
Everyone could go through a hero’s journey but every individual will experience a different journey because everyone is unique. Your character stands out when they are authentic.
Gotta admit that I have plenty of tropes I like, including the one where the male protagonist seems stoic, well put together and even flawless but only those close to him know how much of that is will power, determination, and lots of behind-the-scenes work. Then add the love interest, male or female, who is not only able to see his true self but also offer assistance, hard advice, and confort when needed.
00:01 Introduction 03:10 Tropes in general Do it because you love it - readers will notice 07:16 Six tropes 07:45 (1) The chosen one 13:35 (2) Love triangle 18:30 (3) Superpowers 21:40 (4) Apocalypse 24:40 (5) Pure evil villain 30:00 (6) Dysfunctional family 38:25 Recap Tropes are popular for a reason Make them unique, put your own spin Dig deeper into the characters and their internal conflict, fatal flaw, misbelief, goals, dreams, fears, layers Why it matters, not just what happens Believe your story is unique
How do you write a list of your favourite tropes or story elements that make you laugh, swoon, annotate and stay up till the wee hours of the morning reading, can you please explain how to do this?
All clichés are tropes, but not all tropes are clichés. A cliché is an overused trope. Tropes are the building blocks of a story. You can't write a story without using tropes.
I think tropes are unavoidable. For me they are a way to describe the book and make it more appealing to readers once it’s time to promote it (it’s a quick way to grab their attention). The problem comes when authors write a trope because it’s popular now, not because the story calls for it 😅 I feel like readers can tell the difference.
Agreed. Asking someone to write a story without tropes is like asking a composer to make music without notes and timing, or a chef to make a dish without using any flavors. It's just not really possible. Instead what is possible is that the writer understands the tropes they are using on an intimate level and use them with intent, creating an effect with purpose; when tropes are done right they are hardly even noticed by the audience. The problem crops up when the tropes are inserted by an author who doesn't really understand their purpose in the story, and then it just clashes with the rest.
I've read a book ( The Ember Blade by Chris Wooding ) with a pretty common quest based premise within fantasy and it ended up being my favorite book ever. There was so many other amazing things going on that I wasn't bothered in the slightest and the culmination and twist and turns of the quest was done so well despite it being an " overused" plot device.
I love what you said about villains. A good example of your suggestions is Marrissa Meyer’s Renegades. A story cannot exist without conflict, so having two people who have conflicting morals rather than a stark good vs evil is the best way to write a story, especially a super hero story.
I enjoy villains with backstory as equally as villains that are purely evil. Honestly, tragic pasts are becoming tired for me (whether hero, side character, or villain) because they’re rampant and almost always the same story anymore. And in the society we live in where you’re ostracized for not ever having enough empathy, it’s refreshing to just turn that off for a little bit. Empathy burn out is a real thing
How do you do write a villain that's purely evil without them coming off as one-dimensional and boring? While I prefer 3 dimensional villains, I have no problem writing villains, if I had to, without all the layers. The same goes for heroes.
@@Alexander-2956 there is a way to make your villain scary and unsympathetic without the tragedy while also giving them a desire, fear, and a misbelief. An example is from Alex Garland's Devs. No tragedy but a complex reason why this person is the way s/he is.
@GalaxiaPLAYZ so, what came to me about a "one dimensional" villain that isn't boring is the Joker from the Dark Knight. He has no backstory, but he isn't going after order for the sake of he hates it. He feels that everyone is a crazy person hiding under a flimsy moral code, and he believes he's the guy to stir crap up to reveal society's true colors. For the Joker, not having his backstory known is good for someone like Batman because the hero has NOTHING to try to reason with Joker. Joker is organized, agent of, and chaos walking, and he enjoys every bit of it. Not to mention a wonderful performance by Heath Ledger. So, he is one dimensional as he doesn't have internal conflict, but the Joker is far from interesting.
20:30 I needed that part. I've lost count how many times I've had an idea for story, that I haven't seen before, and then suddenly a year or two later I come across some book/movie/game/article/[insert medium of choice] with what feels like an identical premise, making me uncertain whether I should stick with my idea or if it's now "taken" and ill be labeled a copy-cat if I go through with it (even when the stories are decidedly different). I even had this happen with a character's name. One of my MC's "lost" her name to a rando HORSE in a comic just a week after I came up with it. I've never seen that name anywhere before or since😂 Thanks for your breakdown and great tips❤
Maybe it was in my head, lol, but I had wanted you guys to do a video where you some discuss cliches people are tired off and offer solutions to fix them. One idea to subvert the Chosen One story is to have it where the protagonist is chosen to save people, not his countryman but his enemies.
I agree remove the labels, labels tend to highlight the negative aspects of a subject. Example, labeling someone as socially awkward, why not someone who’s thoughtfully reserved. Keeping it positive!
Yes! This is what I have been trying to say to new writers who ask, "What do I do when my ideas are clichéd?" I first think, "Why do you want to write?" Because if you don't have something you're passionate about, you won't be happy. But if you are passionate and just feel lost, the answer is simpler than you might realize. Take a fresh approach or turn the clichés on their head. My favorite example is Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn. The idea came from his thinking, "What if the hero who was supposed to save the world failed to defeat the dark lord?" That's how he played with the Chosen One trope. Ask yourself questions like, "How do I make this cliché different from what's been done before?"
I saw someone else in a different comment section include their notes in the comment and it was really helpful, so I'm going to do that now. Write what you want to write and don’t think about if it is overdone Examine why you like the tropes you like. The Chosen one needs internal conflict so they aren’t the punching bag for the plot What is the character struggling with outside of the plot? Bring complexities and layers into your story. Like any other romance, the characters need to be developed separately outside of the romance. Develop your characters so they aren’t punching bags for the plot. Develop your characters and make them compelling. Make it personal to the characters and include their fears, goals, and dreams. Give the villain a reason; a misguided belief that turned them into a monster. Monsters aren’t born, they’re created. Don’t think of it as hero/villain, but rather as 2 different people who made vastly different choices, bringing them to vastly different places in life. Dive into complexities; families are complex Focus on past of the families+family relationship
How do you write a list of your favourite tropes or story elements that make you laugh, swoon, annotate and stay up till the wee hours of the morning reading, can you please explain how to do this?
I just found Abbie a few days ago and have been devouring her videos. And tonight I found this channel. I'm so excited and grateful for all the time and value you both provide! ❤
My issue with love triangles is that is usually obvious whom the main character is going to chose and I spend the story waiting for a plot twist that makes the heroine make the less obvious choice but oh, no. The problem with bad boys/girls/non-binary is that they will most likely abuse their partners, they should be avoided at all costs.
Agreed! The bad boy who suddenly stops being bad because of one person is honestly such a toxic trope, especially when the change to goodness happens almost overnight. For that change to be realistic, the change needs to take place over a long period of time, ie. Mr. Darcy.
I admit: I love the chosen one trope, but I absolutely hate love triangles, I REFUSE to write them. I hate reading about them as well, but common fantasy tropes 'the fellowship' and 'here comes the cavalry', I'm all in for, anything about comraderie and people coming together to support each other or a higher cause and it has my full support.
I think love triangles can be done well as long as it it feels like the relationships are built around the characters, not the characters being built around the relationship.
I have been watching Kate’s video and Abbie’s brainstorming video and what was said about making a list of attractive, addictive qualities we see in our favourite stories is very confusing and I want some clarification. What am I supposed to be looking for?
Every story has been told. Thus, every element of a story is both cliché and trope. They can't be avoided, but they _can_ be used to subvert expectations. Just make sure you're not subverting solely for the sake of subverting, because that's a quick way to lose your audience. They need to be in character, always.
Some twists I once listed for possible chosen ones: ✨They have a purpose, but might not have a predefined destiny; ✨ They might have a destiny, but many different possibilities could lead to that; ✨ They don't have to be the main character. Many times our conflicts revolve on other chosen people (presidents and teachers); ✨ To be chosen doesn't need to be a magical prophecy. It could be a choice of the people (election), a legacy (heritage) or a random event (lottery or Subpoena for pure bad luck of being there on the worst moment possible); ✨ They might have rules/obligations, but sometimes they can do the chosen one equivalent of a life hack, doing something in an unconventional way they were not supposed/expected to.
THANK YOU SO MUCH! These are all going in my notes for the podcast! Also, can I add to your list by saying that they could also be destined to do something horible and do everything in their power to stop it, but only end up causing the horible thing htey were trying to stop.
Another one: The people around them make a 'chosen one' position for them to fill in in order to fulfill their own personal goals, so maybe there is no chosen one in the first place, or the mc is put in a constructed role that they don't like? Kind of like Katniss from Hunger Games which is a good take on it.
I wrote a mguffin sword into my story. It is so common in fantasy but it was a simple way to make the storyline make sense. Plus you can make the background and magical properties of the sword unique.
I really have to thank you for the apocalypse trope, I've seen so many books and i wanted to make a zombie book that's really realistic, watching these videos have helped me think more about my characters and how they act. Thanks for all the great advice you guys share, have an amazing day!
I watch your videos as a guideline towards my writing. Your research on story structure increased my ability in crafting a better storyline. As each chapter gets written as each page gets turned It feels unworldly like I written all this before maybe in another time maybe in another life I had the same idea and maybe I just didn’t have the time. So I just wanted to say thank you for helping me bring this story of mine back to life.
the thing with the choosen one is that it not a main chararakter problem but a world building problem. To whom does it matter to the villian? is the choosen one somone for a reason to remove the ruling tyrant(s) from power? Do the villians try to stop stop it making it a self fulfilled thing or do the villians nor care at all and it is a creation by does opossing the villian. So how do others interact with the choosen one and how is the main charakter shaped by it.
I realized my story could possibly be seen as having a love triangle. The ML and FL are actually engaged by the halfway point, but a series of things going catastrophically wrong causes them to part ways for a little while without really clarifying where they're relationship is at now. While the FL is on her own, there is another guy who expresses interest in her, but she never is actually attracted to him. He's there more as a way for her to choose purpose over safety like she did at the beginning of the story, but this time with eyes wide open as to what that could cost her. In the end, the ML returns after working through some of his own baggage l, reconciles with the FL, and they start off on a new life together.
Example of a good love triangle.. vampire diaries. It’s one of those shows where you genuinely did not know which brother she would choose up until a certain point
If you ask me about villains who are evil for the sake of being evil, what I answer with sympathy for the world is that they can still have great internal conflict. Maybe they literally believe they must be evil because they failed many times in life, escaped an abusive home or were left alone and tried really hard to improve themselves only to be called a freak, but when they found no other means to survive besides something they considered evil, they finally found people who supported and loved them, giving them a reason to be loyal to evil itself, they could still be lovely and charming villains.
Hello, beautiful ladies with great ideas. Liked the point about the flatness of character who isn’t well developed or understood. We need to know their pain, and who betrayed them. With a love triangle, someone had to let the third one in. Or she let 2 guys in at the same time?
In terms of reading, sometimes I’m in the mood for great literature but these days I’m often in the mood for the comfortable pants books that are familiar and satisfying. I have a friend who writes those kinds of books and I love them.
How would you make a list of your favourite tropes or story elements that make you laugh, swoon, annotate and stay up till the wee hours of the morning reading, can you please explain how to do this?
Every time I watch one of these videos, I feel like I can't figure out which sister is older and it sends me into some kind of strange curiosity spiral and then I have to replay part of the convo.
They've got a video out there somewhere where Abbie says Kate talked her into writing, convincing her that writing is a viable career option. Doesn't mean Kate's older, but it does make it sound likely.
Funny when I hear you talk about clisheis being the story, I have an U.K. proofreader and when he tells me to avoid clisheis, he is talking about words, not the story itself. Is litature really that much diffrent in the U.S. and U.K.?
Hi Kate and Abbie! I love this podcast, and am looking forward to binge watching all the past episodes. I wonder if you, or any other authors in the comments, could give me some advice. I'm struggling with connecting events in my stories. I'm really good at coming up with interesting hooks, inciting incidents, plot twists, etc. but I struggle with connecting the events in way that makes sense and allows the story to flow smoothly and not be jarring. This is an issue I've struggled with my whole life with every single story I've tried to write. For example, one story I'm currently outlining is about a woman trapped in an abusive marriage who wants to get out. The hook is her confronting her husband about his chronic cheating and abuse, and then the inciting incident is her deciding to run away from him. I'm just struggling to connect the two events in a way that it makes sense why she chooses to run, when she's been putting up with her husband for so long. Any advice you could give or links to other videos you've already made would be helpful.
I know I'm not who you're asking but I really love Abbie's videos and blog posts on things like the hook and the inciting incident. And I think you're missing the mark about what each are. Her deciding to confront him and her deciding to run away from him are both actions she takes, decisions, choices of the protagonist's. What we want are things outside her control that trigger these choices. Maybe she didn't intentionally confront him, something is just happening between them that illuminates her internal conflict as the hook but isn't bad enough yet to be the final straw for her. But the inciting incident is the incident that would indeed incite her to decide to leave him, potentially. The inciting incident is what's right BEFORE this big decision. Why is her life flipped upside down. It's not because out of the blue she made a big life changing decision. It's because something happened that changed everything. A classic cliché example might be she's used to him hitting her but he physically abuses or threatens her child for the first time and finally that's the wake up call she needed. She doesn't feel like her own self deserves better but a line was very much crossed when her kid is involved. We learn a lot about the person by what kind of thing is inspiring the decisions they're making. And to help connect these story structure moments... What else is going on in her life and in her head? What does a day in her life look like? How can you make her a 3 dimensional character we're rooting for where we as readers see her in a way she doesn't yet see herself? Are there seeds of a subplot you could start planting in a carefully interwoven way with the main plot? All this stuff is useful to think about. Think about the first chapter or two of one of your favorite books. Think about what they did prior to the inciting incident. What kind of stuff is written?
I struggle with that too. What I try to do is write all the big interesting parts first and then fill in the gaps between the scenes. I don’t know if that’s the best way…
It seems to me that what you’re missing is the character’s goal. Specify her goal, not something vague, like, “getting away from her husband.” She needs a concrete goal, like make it to a family’s member’s home several states away. Then she needs a plan to make that happen: money, supplies, the best time to escape, etc. Once you know her concrete goal, you can plot the story and connect everything.
My current favorite villain is Jack of Hearts from 'Once Upon A Broken Heart' You're like 'wow he's such a manipulative dick' but also 'he's obviously really hurting and I feel for him and I just want him to find love and be happy' 😭
I'm watching this great video to procrastinate writing. I have only the last scene (1000 words) left to write for my first draft and I'm SCARED. I don't even know why
I would think you're nervous about "getting it right." After all, your future readers will have gone through a couple hundred pages to get here and read the "satisfying" ending. You may also be nervous about putting your now grow-up creative child out into the universe.
@@kathyl6677 You're probably right... but as it's the first part of a trilogy I was able to type those last words eventually, after all it's not the "big ending" yet😅
@@Financiallyfreeauthor Oh, thank you for asking! I'm almost done with the second draft and I'm already excited to start writing part two. So yes, it's going well
I have a query. So if the male is interested ( flirting and all but nothing serious) and the girl is annoyed by him but they later fall in love. So what is the trope called? Can anyone help 😭😭
#5 Give your villain some humanity. 👍 I see villians without reasons (a sub-chapter of Doctors Without Borders) in many short stories and it just feels so empty and artificial when just one or two sentences of backstory could make the character come to life.
I have so much difficulty with that type of video because it's so neurotypical type.... that I am like ; " when I try to understand the complexity of the movie or the book it's because I actually like it. It's interesting to me. "
This is why I was very much less impressed with the movie adaptation of Thanos than I was with the comic book adaptation. In the comics there is a romance with Lady Death and it is the bulk of the reason why Thanos is snapping people away, to give her souls that she craves to make her fall in love with him. In the movies, his concern about people and resources seems compassionate, however, it is lacking in basic math skills. When Thanos snapped his fingers and snapped half of life away, he snapped half of the resources away with those lives. For example, if you snap away half of the lions and half of the zebras; the lion to zebra ratio stays the same and nothing is gained. It is evident that when Thanos snapped his fingers he did not make a distinction between sentient beings like cat people and house cats because in The Avengers headquarters in the atrium when Dr. Banner snapped everyone and or everything back. He snapped back more birds that were missing from the atrium, cue the line where Ant-Man looks at the birds in the atrium and says, I think it worked. Ant-Man's observation is evidence that Thanos did not take into account that snapping half of life away would also take with it half of the resources; half of the food, definitely half of the farmers, half of the doctors, half of the philanthropists, half of the protectors, and half of the mothers. What happened to third trimester pregnant women when Thanos snapped people away did some of them automatically become not pregnant because the baby and or fetus was snapped and the mother was not. As much as I am a great fan of the Russo Brothers and I appreciate their works and I couldn't live without Captain America or The Avengers, I don't think either them nor Thanos inside of the fiction considered this when executing his plan to collect the stones and snap his fingers. To borrow a line from the movie Star Trek II TWOK; "Khan, I'm laughing at the superior intellect."
I am having trouble with tropes because I don’t understand how to use them and to engage readers, it is getting to the point that I am getting confused and desperate about understanding tropes. Please help.
Tropes aren’t bad things. They are tools every writer uses. It’s when they are cliche, that is, used the same way too often, that people get tired of them. If you put a new spin on an overused trope, the reader is less likely to groan when they see it used. For instance, the ‘chosen one’ trope- an instant groan from many readers. But if you put a new spin on it, like perhaps he is the villain’s chosen one, you have sparked readers’ interest.
@@robynevershed9292 Do you mean two characters’ romantic arc? Unless you are writing a romance novel, a romance arc would be a subplot, not the main plot. It’s not specific to any genre.
Regarding the apocalypse trope, I get bored with movies/shows/stories that focus more on the human element rather than the apocalypse. That is why I stopped watching the Walking Dead and was worried the Last of Us was going to turn into. It became more about the factions, the human vs human, the groups, and their conflicts rather than the fact that the entire world has been turned on its head. I like fiction, fantasy, and sci-fi because it contains things that don't exist, or can't exist. If I wanted to read/watch about human drama I would have chosen that genre. They can walk the line (and many do) between dealing with whichever particular type of apocalypse it is, but too far into the human element and I'm bored.
The only one I see differently than you ladies, is the evil villain for now reason. Look at the Joker. He is evil for evil sake. Yet he is such a masterfully written villain. It's like Alfred said. "Some people just want to watch the world burn."
Hazel, I must tell you and it’s because I want you to stop dreaming of things which cannot happen. Yes we are the same but it’s always going to be Abhigail. I would rather stand before a monster truck. I will die for her, if she makes me blind enough. I’m saying this because I love you more than anyone here.
Hi! Great video filled with even better advice as usual. Quick thought: tropes and clichés are different. All Clichés are tropes, but only a few tropes are clichés. Tropes also aren't defined by whether they've been used before or not. If your story has something that has never been done (improbable, but old tropes that can be made new-ish with a clever twist), it's still a trope, and you just invented a new one. Finally, tropes are plot devices are tropes. This is also valid for characters, settings... In other words, if it's in any sort of narrative (even real life ones), it's a trope. Not only are they unavoidable, but without them, no story, not even a single part, would be able to exist.
You kinda forgot to define trope. I guess you say it's synonymous with plot device. I think you're using a different definition of trope than Kate & Abbie are though. Tropes aren't tropes until there's a recognizable pattern that multiple stories all fall into, as far as I'm concerned. You wouldn't say any possible plot sequence of events is a trope.
@@VioletEmerald Fair enough, that's a perfectly valid opinion. That being said, nothing is new under the sun, and coming up with an entirely new trope is unlikely, imho. Anything one comes up with for their story is very likely to have past instances, even if one isn't aware of them. Food for thoughts: how many instances would be needed to make a pattern recognizable? More than one, obviously, but would 2 be enough? 3? a dozen, maybe?
My whole main character's struggle is imposter syndrome. Her oldest sister was supposed to inherit her mother's position (the mc is the youngest of the three siblings). Well when the mc is like 14 her sister disowns herself from the family and the responsibility of her mom's position and family heritage falls to her. She steps into swimmingly but she struggles so much with the anxiety and responsibility it brings. It puts her in positions of power and influence that she really feels like she's not qualified to be in and her decisions have consequences that she isn't ready for sometimes. I definitely think you can make that struggle of not being good enough their struggle. You can make it cloud their vision and as they progress have things slowly clear up as they learn their truth.
And then there's the love W (What is that? It's when Protagonist is wavering between a relationship with character B or character C; at the same time, Character B is wavering between a relationship with Protagonist or Character D).
I once heard someone say "A story without tropes is like a recipe without ingredients." They're needed and we shouldn't be afraid of them.
Indeed. The problem is not tropes themselves, the problem is when writers just throw in tropes without really understanding them and their purpose in a story. Instead of trying to avoid them, it is better to understand them and use them with intent. As with the cooking analogy - it would be like one would-be chef just throwing anything into their dish without any regard for its texture, flavor profile and how it fits in with the rest of the dish as a whole; even if they cook something good, it's just by pure accident and probably still not as good as it could have been. Instead a chef who takes the time to understand their ingredients will make great dishes regularly with intent.
I feel like how often that is used and the writing itself kinda brings meaning to it.
For example, in the East (Japan, Korea, China) there's this 3 whole ass cliche story genre where 90% is copied from each other.
Japan: Isekai
China: Sects
Korea: Reincarnation/System
(As in characters from one of the stories is nearly identical to other stories of the same genre)
It's specifically getting horrible in the Isekai Genre. It's gotten to a point where the new ones doesn't really explain that much details because it assumes that you know something about the genre even before watching it. That's how many they're racking up every year. (Roughly 15-20 Isekai Shows every year)
Anyway, the overall point here is that when a thrope is overused, you'd subconsciously hate on it regardless of how good written it is.
@@DarrylCross I agree, I don’t understand tropes at all and I want to better understand them, would you by any chance help me please?
We're just afraid of poorly written ones and bad writing.
Tropes are only bad if.....
THERE'S NO FREAKING INTERNAL CONFLICT!!!! 🤣
(Just guessing what they'd say)
Everyone could go through a hero’s journey but every individual will experience a different journey because everyone is unique. Your character stands out when they are authentic.
Gotta admit that I have plenty of tropes I like, including the one where the male protagonist seems stoic, well put together and even flawless but only those close to him know how much of that is will power, determination, and lots of behind-the-scenes work. Then add the love interest, male or female, who is not only able to see his true self but also offer assistance, hard advice, and confort when needed.
00:01 Introduction
03:10 Tropes in general
Do it because you love it - readers will notice
07:16 Six tropes
07:45 (1) The chosen one
13:35 (2) Love triangle
18:30 (3) Superpowers
21:40 (4) Apocalypse
24:40 (5) Pure evil villain
30:00 (6) Dysfunctional family
38:25 Recap
Tropes are popular for a reason
Make them unique, put your own spin
Dig deeper into the characters and their internal conflict, fatal flaw, misbelief, goals, dreams, fears, layers
Why it matters, not just what happens
Believe your story is unique
THANK YOU
How do you write a list of your favourite tropes or story elements that make you laugh, swoon, annotate and stay up till the wee hours of the morning reading, can you please explain how to do this?
How do I make a character development for my dysfunctional family and put my own unique spin on it?
All clichés are tropes, but not all tropes are clichés. A cliché is an overused trope.
Tropes are the building blocks of a story. You can't write a story without using tropes.
I thought it meant trope that's too popular.
@@skmuskanrahaman1690 If something is too popular, then it's overused. It's just two different ways of describing the same thing.
I think tropes are unavoidable. For me they are a way to describe the book and make it more appealing to readers once it’s time to promote it (it’s a quick way to grab their attention). The problem comes when authors write a trope because it’s popular now, not because the story calls for it 😅 I feel like readers can tell the difference.
Agreed. Asking someone to write a story without tropes is like asking a composer to make music without notes and timing, or a chef to make a dish without using any flavors. It's just not really possible. Instead what is possible is that the writer understands the tropes they are using on an intimate level and use them with intent, creating an effect with purpose; when tropes are done right they are hardly even noticed by the audience. The problem crops up when the tropes are inserted by an author who doesn't really understand their purpose in the story, and then it just clashes with the rest.
I've read a book ( The Ember Blade by Chris Wooding ) with a pretty common quest based premise within fantasy and it ended up being my favorite book ever. There was so many other amazing things going on that I wasn't bothered in the slightest and the culmination and twist and turns of the quest was done so well despite it being an " overused" plot device.
I love what you said about villains. A good example of your suggestions is Marrissa Meyer’s Renegades. A story cannot exist without conflict, so having two people who have conflicting morals rather than a stark good vs evil is the best way to write a story, especially a super hero story.
Those books changed my opinions on the super hero trope forever! And they shined a light on worldview and how our upbrinigng affects it so much!
I enjoy villains with backstory as equally as villains that are purely evil. Honestly, tragic pasts are becoming tired for me (whether hero, side character, or villain) because they’re rampant and almost always the same story anymore. And in the society we live in where you’re ostracized for not ever having enough empathy, it’s refreshing to just turn that off for a little bit. Empathy burn out is a real thing
How do you do write a villain that's purely evil without them coming off as one-dimensional and boring? While I prefer 3 dimensional villains, I have no problem writing villains, if I had to, without all the layers. The same goes for heroes.
And I hate that that's kinda becoming a quality ruler.
@@Alexander-2956 there is a way to make your villain scary and unsympathetic without the tragedy while also giving them a desire, fear, and a misbelief. An example is from Alex Garland's Devs. No tragedy but a complex reason why this person is the way s/he is.
@GalaxiaPLAYZ so, what came to me about a "one dimensional" villain that isn't boring is the Joker from the Dark Knight. He has no backstory, but he isn't going after order for the sake of he hates it. He feels that everyone is a crazy person hiding under a flimsy moral code, and he believes he's the guy to stir crap up to reveal society's true colors. For the Joker, not having his backstory known is good for someone like Batman because the hero has NOTHING to try to reason with Joker. Joker is organized, agent of, and chaos walking, and he enjoys every bit of it. Not to mention a wonderful performance by Heath Ledger. So, he is one dimensional as he doesn't have internal conflict, but the Joker is far from interesting.
@@jacindaellison3363The joker isn't one-dimensional at all
20:30 I needed that part. I've lost count how many times I've had an idea for story, that I haven't seen before, and then suddenly a year or two later I come across some book/movie/game/article/[insert medium of choice] with what feels like an identical premise, making me uncertain whether I should stick with my idea or if it's now "taken" and ill be labeled a copy-cat if I go through with it (even when the stories are decidedly different).
I even had this happen with a character's name. One of my MC's "lost" her name to a rando HORSE in a comic just a week after I came up with it. I've never seen that name anywhere before or since😂
Thanks for your breakdown and great tips❤
Thank you! This is something I worry about whenever I come up with a story idea. I tend to avoid using tropes, so I'm really curious about this!
it was wonderful. We all need a part two. You two must dive deep into another cliche tropes, we would love more advise and thought from you guys
Agree!😊
Maybe it was in my head, lol, but I had wanted you guys to do a video where you some discuss cliches people are tired off and offer solutions to fix them.
One idea to subvert the Chosen One story is to have it where the protagonist is chosen to save people, not his countryman but his enemies.
I am in love with your idea! :O
@@MaxineAndrew thanks!
I agree remove the labels, labels tend to highlight the negative aspects of a subject. Example, labeling someone as socially awkward, why not someone who’s thoughtfully reserved. Keeping it positive!
Yes! This is what I have been trying to say to new writers who ask, "What do I do when my ideas are clichéd?" I first think, "Why do you want to write?" Because if you don't have something you're passionate about, you won't be happy. But if you are passionate and just feel lost, the answer is simpler than you might realize. Take a fresh approach or turn the clichés on their head. My favorite example is Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn. The idea came from his thinking, "What if the hero who was supposed to save the world failed to defeat the dark lord?" That's how he played with the Chosen One trope. Ask yourself questions like, "How do I make this cliché different from what's been done before?"
This came at the perfect time! Thank you, Kate and Abbie!
I saw someone else in a different comment section include their notes in the comment and it was really helpful, so I'm going to do that now.
Write what you want to write and don’t think about if it is overdone
Examine why you like the tropes you like.
The Chosen one needs internal conflict so they aren’t the punching bag for the plot
What is the character struggling with outside of the plot?
Bring complexities and layers into your story.
Like any other romance, the characters need to be developed separately outside of the romance.
Develop your characters so they aren’t punching bags for the plot.
Develop your characters and make them compelling.
Make it personal to the characters and include their fears, goals, and dreams.
Give the villain a reason; a misguided belief that turned them into a monster.
Monsters aren’t born, they’re created.
Don’t think of it as hero/villain, but rather as 2 different people who made vastly different choices, bringing them to vastly different places in life.
Dive into complexities; families are complex
Focus on past of the families+family relationship
How do you write a list of your favourite tropes or story elements that make you laugh, swoon, annotate and stay up till the wee hours of the morning reading, can you please explain how to do this?
I just found Abbie a few days ago and have been devouring her videos. And tonight I found this channel. I'm so excited and grateful for all the time and value you both provide! ❤
My issue with love triangles is that is usually obvious whom the main character is going to chose and I spend the story waiting for a plot twist that makes the heroine make the less obvious choice but oh, no. The problem with bad boys/girls/non-binary is that they will most likely abuse their partners, they should be avoided at all costs.
Agreed! The bad boy who suddenly stops being bad because of one person is honestly such a toxic trope, especially when the change to goodness happens almost overnight. For that change to be realistic, the change needs to take place over a long period of time, ie. Mr. Darcy.
Oh wow, I didn't know you guys were indie! So am I, so cool!
Thank you!
Abbie, don't cut your hair! It is flowing BEAUTIFUL, girl! God has blessed you, let us enjoy it looking at it together with your writing advice.
She really does have gorgeous hair
She has gorgeous hair but it would be gorgeous shorter too ! :) it'll grow back
You're the best Kate!!!
I admit: I love the chosen one trope, but I absolutely hate love triangles, I REFUSE to write them. I hate reading about them as well, but common fantasy tropes 'the fellowship' and 'here comes the cavalry', I'm all in for, anything about comraderie and people coming together to support each other or a higher cause and it has my full support.
I think love triangles can be done well as long as it it feels like the relationships are built around the characters, not the characters being built around the relationship.
I have been watching Kate’s video and Abbie’s brainstorming video and what was said about making a list of attractive, addictive qualities we see in our favourite stories is very confusing and I want some clarification. What am I supposed to be looking for?
Every story has been told. Thus, every element of a story is both cliché and trope. They can't be avoided, but they _can_ be used to subvert expectations. Just make sure you're not subverting solely for the sake of subverting, because that's a quick way to lose your audience. They need to be in character, always.
Some twists I once listed for possible chosen ones:
✨They have a purpose, but might not have a predefined destiny;
✨ They might have a destiny, but many different possibilities could lead to that;
✨ They don't have to be the main character. Many times our conflicts revolve on other chosen people (presidents and teachers);
✨ To be chosen doesn't need to be a magical prophecy. It could be a choice of the people (election), a legacy (heritage) or a random event (lottery or Subpoena for pure bad luck of being there on the worst moment possible);
✨ They might have rules/obligations, but sometimes they can do the chosen one equivalent of a life hack, doing something in an unconventional way they were not supposed/expected to.
I LOVE THIS! THANK YOU!
@@worthfightingfor2299 You're welcome!
THANK YOU SO MUCH! These are all going in my notes for the podcast! Also, can I add to your list by saying that they could also be destined to do something horible and do everything in their power to stop it, but only end up causing the horible thing htey were trying to stop.
@@madelyn932 You're welcome! Go ahead and add it!
Another one: The people around them make a 'chosen one' position for them to fill in in order to fulfill their own personal goals, so maybe there is no chosen one in the first place, or the mc is put in a constructed role that they don't like? Kind of like Katniss from Hunger Games which is a good take on it.
I wrote a mguffin sword into my story. It is so common in fantasy but it was a simple way to make the storyline make sense. Plus you can make the background and magical properties of the sword unique.
I really have to thank you for the apocalypse trope, I've seen so many books and i wanted to make a zombie book that's really realistic, watching these videos have helped me think more about my characters and how they act. Thanks for all the great advice you guys share, have an amazing day!
I watch your videos as a guideline towards my writing. Your research on story structure increased my ability in crafting a better storyline. As each chapter gets written as each page gets turned It feels unworldly like I written all this before maybe in another time maybe in another life I had the same idea and maybe I just didn’t have the time. So I just wanted to say thank you for helping me bring this story of mine back to life.
How do I make a dysfunctional family character development and put it into my own unique spin on it?
the thing with the choosen one is that it not a main chararakter problem but a world building problem.
To whom does it matter to the villian? is the choosen one somone for a reason to remove the ruling tyrant(s) from power?
Do the villians try to stop stop it making it a self fulfilled thing or do the villians nor care at all and it is a creation by does opossing the villian.
So how do others interact with the choosen one and how is the main charakter shaped by it.
I realized my story could possibly be seen as having a love triangle. The ML and FL are actually engaged by the halfway point, but a series of things going catastrophically wrong causes them to part ways for a little while without really clarifying where they're relationship is at now. While the FL is on her own, there is another guy who expresses interest in her, but she never is actually attracted to him. He's there more as a way for her to choose purpose over safety like she did at the beginning of the story, but this time with eyes wide open as to what that could cost her. In the end, the ML returns after working through some of his own baggage l, reconciles with the FL, and they start off on a new life together.
Example of a good love triangle.. vampire diaries. It’s one of those shows where you genuinely did not know which brother she would choose up until a certain point
If you ask me about villains who are evil for the sake of being evil, what I answer with sympathy for the world is that they can still have great internal conflict. Maybe they literally believe they must be evil because they failed many times in life, escaped an abusive home or were left alone and tried really hard to improve themselves only to be called a freak, but when they found no other means to survive besides something they considered evil, they finally found people who supported and loved them, giving them a reason to be loyal to evil itself, they could still be lovely and charming villains.
Can someone explain how to write the list you are excited to read? I would like some advice because this is my first time doing this.
Hello, beautiful ladies with great ideas. Liked the point about the flatness of character who isn’t well developed or understood. We need to know their pain, and who betrayed them. With a love triangle, someone had to let the third one in. Or she let 2 guys in at the same time?
I like the love pentagram in the Fortuna Sworn series 😂
In terms of reading, sometimes I’m in the mood for great literature but these days I’m often in the mood for the comfortable pants books that are familiar and satisfying. I have a friend who writes those kinds of books and I love them.
How would you make a list of your favourite tropes or story elements that make you laugh, swoon, annotate and stay up till the wee hours of the morning reading, can you please explain how to do this?
@@robynevershed9292 I guess read a lot and see which things you find yourself enjoying most? It hasn't been hard for me to know what I like!
Yay, I’ve been waiting!
Every time I watch one of these videos, I feel like I can't figure out which sister is older and it sends me into some kind of strange curiosity spiral and then I have to replay part of the convo.
They've got a video out there somewhere where Abbie says Kate talked her into writing, convincing her that writing is a viable career option. Doesn't mean Kate's older, but it does make it sound likely.
I think Kate is the older sister
You'll pry the love triangle from my cold dead hands.
😂😂😂
Funny when I hear you talk about clisheis being the story, I have an U.K. proofreader and when he tells me to avoid clisheis, he is talking about words, not the story itself.
Is litature really that much diffrent in the U.S. and U.K.?
Hi Kate and Abbie! I love this podcast, and am looking forward to binge watching all the past episodes.
I wonder if you, or any other authors in the comments, could give me some advice. I'm struggling with connecting events in my stories. I'm really good at coming up with interesting hooks, inciting incidents, plot twists, etc. but I struggle with connecting the events in way that makes sense and allows the story to flow smoothly and not be jarring. This is an issue I've struggled with my whole life with every single story I've tried to write.
For example, one story I'm currently outlining is about a woman trapped in an abusive marriage who wants to get out. The hook is her confronting her husband about his chronic cheating and abuse, and then the inciting incident is her deciding to run away from him. I'm just struggling to connect the two events in a way that it makes sense why she chooses to run, when she's been putting up with her husband for so long.
Any advice you could give or links to other videos you've already made would be helpful.
I know I'm not who you're asking but I really love Abbie's videos and blog posts on things like the hook and the inciting incident. And I think you're missing the mark about what each are. Her deciding to confront him and her deciding to run away from him are both actions she takes, decisions, choices of the protagonist's. What we want are things outside her control that trigger these choices. Maybe she didn't intentionally confront him, something is just happening between them that illuminates her internal conflict as the hook but isn't bad enough yet to be the final straw for her. But the inciting incident is the incident that would indeed incite her to decide to leave him, potentially. The inciting incident is what's right BEFORE this big decision. Why is her life flipped upside down. It's not because out of the blue she made a big life changing decision. It's because something happened that changed everything. A classic cliché example might be she's used to him hitting her but he physically abuses or threatens her child for the first time and finally that's the wake up call she needed. She doesn't feel like her own self deserves better but a line was very much crossed when her kid is involved. We learn a lot about the person by what kind of thing is inspiring the decisions they're making.
And to help connect these story structure moments... What else is going on in her life and in her head? What does a day in her life look like? How can you make her a 3 dimensional character we're rooting for where we as readers see her in a way she doesn't yet see herself? Are there seeds of a subplot you could start planting in a carefully interwoven way with the main plot? All this stuff is useful to think about.
Think about the first chapter or two of one of your favorite books. Think about what they did prior to the inciting incident. What kind of stuff is written?
I struggle with that too. What I try to do is write all the big interesting parts first and then fill in the gaps between the scenes. I don’t know if that’s the best way…
It seems to me that what you’re missing is the character’s goal. Specify her goal, not something vague, like, “getting away from her husband.” She needs a concrete goal, like make it to a family’s member’s home several states away. Then she needs a plan to make that happen: money, supplies, the best time to escape, etc. Once you know her concrete goal, you can plot the story and connect everything.
My current favorite villain is Jack of Hearts from 'Once Upon A Broken Heart'
You're like 'wow he's such a manipulative dick' but also 'he's obviously really hurting and I feel for him and I just want him to find love and be happy' 😭
I’ve never heard of trope
I'm watching this great video to procrastinate writing. I have only the last scene (1000 words) left to write for my first draft and I'm SCARED. I don't even know why
I would think you're nervous about "getting it right." After all, your future readers will have gone through a couple hundred pages to get here and read the "satisfying" ending. You may also be nervous about putting your now grow-up creative child out into the universe.
@@kathyl6677 You're probably right... but as it's the first part of a trilogy I was able to type those last words eventually, after all it's not the "big ending" yet😅
Have you been able to push forward? Finishing a big project does come with some fear and trepidation ❤
@@Financiallyfreeauthor Oh, thank you for asking! I'm almost done with the second draft and I'm already excited to start writing part two. So yes, it's going well
@@german_equestrian6098 Oh my gosh that's wonderful! I'm so glad it's going so well :D
I have a query. So if the male is interested ( flirting and all but nothing serious) and the girl is annoyed by him but they later fall in love. So what is the trope called? Can anyone help 😭😭
The cad who grew up and became a serious love interest. Idk.
#5 Give your villain some humanity. 👍
I see villians without reasons (a sub-chapter of Doctors Without Borders) in many short stories and it just feels so empty and artificial when just one or two sentences of backstory could make the character come to life.
I just saw the title of this episode and clicked it before I even realised
I have so much difficulty with that type of video because it's so neurotypical type.... that I am like ; " when I try to understand the complexity of the movie or the book it's because I actually like it. It's interesting to me. "
This is why I was very much less impressed with the movie adaptation of Thanos than I was with the comic book adaptation. In the comics there is a romance with Lady Death and it is the bulk of the reason why Thanos is snapping people away, to give her souls that she craves to make her fall in love with him. In the movies, his concern about people and resources seems compassionate, however, it is lacking in basic math skills. When Thanos snapped his fingers and snapped half of life away, he snapped half of the resources away with those lives. For example, if you snap away half of the lions and half of the zebras; the lion to zebra ratio stays the same and nothing is gained. It is evident that when Thanos snapped his fingers he did not make a distinction between sentient beings like cat people and house cats because in The Avengers headquarters in the atrium when Dr. Banner snapped everyone and or everything back. He snapped back more birds that were missing from the atrium, cue the line where Ant-Man looks at the birds in the atrium and says, I think it worked. Ant-Man's observation is evidence that Thanos did not take into account that snapping half of life away would also take with it half of the resources; half of the food, definitely half of the farmers, half of the doctors, half of the philanthropists, half of the protectors, and half of the mothers. What happened to third trimester pregnant women when Thanos snapped people away did some of them automatically become not pregnant because the baby and or fetus was snapped and the mother was not. As much as I am a great fan of the Russo Brothers and I appreciate their works and I couldn't live without Captain America or The Avengers, I don't think either them nor Thanos inside of the fiction considered this when executing his plan to collect the stones and snap his fingers. To borrow a line from the movie Star Trek II TWOK; "Khan, I'm laughing at the superior intellect."
I have all of them 🤣 is that a good thing or a bad thing?
I am having trouble with tropes because I don’t understand how to use them and to engage readers, it is getting to the point that I am getting confused and desperate about understanding tropes. Please help.
Tropes aren’t bad things. They are tools every writer uses. It’s when they are cliche, that is, used the same way too often, that people get tired of them. If you put a new spin on an overused trope, the reader is less likely to groan when they see it used. For instance, the ‘chosen one’ trope- an instant groan from many readers. But if you put a new spin on it, like perhaps he is the villain’s chosen one, you have sparked readers’ interest.
@@oORiseAboveOo does romantic character development relate to any genre?
@@robynevershed9292
Do you mean two characters’ romantic arc? Unless you are writing a romance novel, a romance arc would be a subplot, not the main plot. It’s not specific to any genre.
@@oORiseAboveOo I am thinking relationships in a family that sticks together during hard times through thick and thin.
@@robynevershed9292
Yes, that could be used in any genre. It’s sounds like that is your theme-the message of your story.
27 dresses is the best love triangle film ever 😂 you can’t tell it’s a triangle 🎉😂
Regarding the apocalypse trope, I get bored with movies/shows/stories that focus more on the human element rather than the apocalypse. That is why I stopped watching the Walking Dead and was worried the Last of Us was going to turn into. It became more about the factions, the human vs human, the groups, and their conflicts rather than the fact that the entire world has been turned on its head. I like fiction, fantasy, and sci-fi because it contains things that don't exist, or can't exist. If I wanted to read/watch about human drama I would have chosen that genre.
They can walk the line (and many do) between dealing with whichever particular type of apocalypse it is, but too far into the human element and I'm bored.
The only one I see differently than you ladies, is the evil villain for now reason. Look at the Joker. He is evil for evil sake. Yet he is such a masterfully written villain. It's like Alfred said. "Some people just want to watch the world burn."
Will you show us how to use tropes in a video?
Hazel, I must tell you and it’s because I want you to stop dreaming of things which cannot happen. Yes we are the same but it’s always going to be Abhigail. I would rather stand before a monster truck. I will die for her, if she makes me blind enough. I’m saying this because I love you more than anyone here.
I love you more than anyone as a friend. Abhigail is not a friend. She’s not human either. She’s my pen.
Hi! Great video filled with even better advice as usual.
Quick thought: tropes and clichés are different. All Clichés are tropes, but only a few tropes are clichés.
Tropes also aren't defined by whether they've been used before or not. If your story has something that has never been done (improbable, but old tropes that can be made new-ish with a clever twist), it's still a trope, and you just invented a new one.
Finally, tropes are plot devices are tropes. This is also valid for characters, settings... In other words, if it's in any sort of narrative (even real life ones), it's a trope. Not only are they unavoidable, but without them, no story, not even a single part, would be able to exist.
You kinda forgot to define trope. I guess you say it's synonymous with plot device. I think you're using a different definition of trope than Kate & Abbie are though. Tropes aren't tropes until there's a recognizable pattern that multiple stories all fall into, as far as I'm concerned. You wouldn't say any possible plot sequence of events is a trope.
@@VioletEmerald Fair enough, that's a perfectly valid opinion. That being said, nothing is new under the sun, and coming up with an entirely new trope is unlikely, imho. Anything one comes up with for their story is very likely to have past instances, even if one isn't aware of them.
Food for thoughts: how many instances would be needed to make a pattern recognizable? More than one, obviously, but would 2 be enough? 3? a dozen, maybe?
I still don’t like love triangles- most of the time-
My MC wants to prove he's good enough, yet doesn't think he's good enough. It makes me wonder if his internal conflict is good enough.
My whole main character's struggle is imposter syndrome. Her oldest sister was supposed to inherit her mother's position (the mc is the youngest of the three siblings). Well when the mc is like 14 her sister disowns herself from the family and the responsibility of her mom's position and family heritage falls to her. She steps into swimmingly but she struggles so much with the anxiety and responsibility it brings. It puts her in positions of power and influence that she really feels like she's not qualified to be in and her decisions have consequences that she isn't ready for sometimes. I definitely think you can make that struggle of not being good enough their struggle. You can make it cloud their vision and as they progress have things slowly clear up as they learn their truth.
All the things I wrote about Abhigail are to be released to the girls.
you’re the librarian.
A true love triangle cant be heterosexual, otherwise its just a love angle.
And then there's the love W (What is that? It's when Protagonist is wavering between a relationship with character B or character C; at the same time, Character B is wavering between a relationship with Protagonist or Character D).
wow, what a change of speech, pace and coherency! not🗿