@@zanzaboonda Agreed. Writing, casting, and directing something as painful as the Anakin/Padme dialogue and dynamic requires a lack of talent and skill. A writer's lack of affinity for a genre can spawn a unique strain of bad writing.
@reyaThe problem is that it's dreadfully written and the relationship between Anakin and Padme never feels real. It feels like two working colleagues standing next to each other feeling visibly uncomfortable because the script tell them to get intimate with each other.
Sad thing is, a lot of people felt and reacted the same way. My friends and I did. Honestly, a silent message or even a hug would not have been so jarring.
@@fallen_Spartan79 so did I, the same saga that gave us “I am your Father”, then Luke using his connection with Leia to call her to him and save him. The saga that gave us “if you strike me down i shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine”, Luke choosing death and the belief there is good in his father over falling to the darks side in ROtJ. The same saga that gave us “you’re all clear kid, now let’s blow this thing go home!” …Also has Leia flying through the vacuum of space. I can still only consider episodes 1-6 as my head canon aha.
I hate, hate, HATE cliche #2 - the contrived, almost never believable breakup due to a misunderstanding. One variation of this (common in Korean dramas), is when one of the characters temporarily becomes a voluntary mute. The character with the misunderstanding clearly communicates the misunderstanding to the other character, who could then correct the misunderstanding with a single sentence. But instead of speaking this sentence, they just stand in silence (usually with a blank look on their face), as if they temporarily forget that their mouth can be used for talking. It's terrible, lazy and just stupid writing, yet it still happens.
Yes. I don't understand, because one of the goals if not the major goal in the romance genre is to create the feeling that these characters belong together. So, why do they break up, don't wanna talk, or "give up" on the relationship so easily? It doesn't make sense to me. Because that doesn't give the emotion to the audience to be rooting for them. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy break-up arcs, but it has to be well written, with the character's communication, and have a REASONABLE motive. But unfortunately, a lot of writers are scared to give the characters flaws and mistakes. Instead, the only way they can include this type of arc with these perfect angel beings is through miscommunication.
@@iago2682u The first Shrek is a good example of how to do a miscommunication break up. its down perfectly, and at just the right moment in the movie. also it doesn't feel contrived because Shrek has no reason to think fiona would refer to herself as a monster
@@benjaminwatt2436 Yes, Jane Austen also uses miscommunication in Pride and Prejudice and it's done very well, I think that every rule has its exceptions. But unfortunately, a lot of stories that use this type of arc don't explore it to its full potential
Dragged out "will they, won't they" has to be my #1. There is nothing that frustrates me more about romance subplots than when the characters _do_ have that chemistry that makes them a fun and sweet couple, but they keep dancing around it and never get together until the very end of the story, and you never actually get to see their relationship.
This was a TV series issue. This was the sole plot of Moonlighting, Remmington Steele, Scarecrow and Mrs. King, ad. infinitum. Once the main characters finally got together, the writers didn't have anything else and the shows died off pretty quick.
@@blshouse That's why I liked it in Brooklyn Nine-Nine when Jake and Amy got together at the end of the second season and that was just how it stayed for the rest of the series. Instead of having them break up for drama every 10 episodes, the writers just developed their relationship further and created all-new chemistry between them alongside building off of the chemistry that was already there. Turns out you can decide not to drag it out forever and _still_ hook your audience, who knew!
@@blshouse Actually, it's the other way around. Once the chemistry moves into fulfillment, the audience stops watching. TV romances where they marry the couple or they have sex finally is like having an orgasm for the viewers. Foreplay is anticipation. Foreplay appeals to women. Build romance, they have years of foreplay, and finally the couple have sex. That sex is the mental orgasm of viewers. And like real sex, you're done until the next time you begin building with foreplay. And it's that first time that;s the sweetest. Any producer will tell you to can any sex if you have romantic leads, because that become a major factor of what is keeping you watching. Remove that and the show tanks.
The interrupted kiss is one cliché I hate. Two characters are having a romantic moment, they are moments away from kissing, and then the wacky sidekick barges in and stops them, oops!
The miscommunication one is the worst for me. Especially if the entire conflict depends solely on two people not being able to have a normal conversation and say things any normal, sane person would say.
Yea, this is my most hated clechè too. Especially when you watched it and think how can this to people to be so dumm and are unable to comunicate when I was 13 I always wished to jump in the movie/series and jealed to the main couple to just comunicate becouse I couldn't stand it anymore to wach this
I only have three examples of this trope that I don't hate: -The Nightmare Before Christmas. The miscommunication comes as a result of character clash. Sally tries to warn Jack about her vision, but she's not an assertive character, so she can't get him to understand what she's trying to tell him, and Jack is too wrapped up in his excitement to hear what Sally is actually saying. It's a believable scenario that happens all the time IRL, and Sally did try a few times to make Jack understand. -Shrek, which has a similar premise where what Shrek overhears Fiona saying is understandable, and serves as an example of how your own self-loathing can unwittingly affect others. Fiona's talking about herself, but it's understandable that what Shrek overhears can apply to himself. -Gravity Falls. One episode has Dipper and Mabel going off to do different things, and they have walkie talkies to communicate. It's understandable there's a communication issue when Dipper's adventure leads him to accidentally activate a UFO that pulls him out of range when Mabel is trying to call him, so her messages either get cut off or only partially get through. But the fact that I have very few examples of this trope working for the plot is pretty telling. It *can* work, if the writer is willing to put in the effort to make it work. But most writers don't.
For me, it's the COMPULSION for a relationship to become romantic. Like, if these two characters are best friends, then CLEARLY they must be romantically involved, desperately thirsting for each other, practically having babies already... Or they could just be good friends and leave it at that? Honestly, I feel romance is the lazy cop-out and a deep, meaningful platonic relationship (especially between a guy and a girl) is the harder one to write.
There's an Indie movie I saw a year or so back. I can't remember the name, but it did that. They stayed friends all through the movie and didn't even kiss. I was surprised. It struck me harder than all that shallow Rom Com bullshit.
I hate gaymances in general, because I'm a bigot and all that, but still even I was on board for shipping Finn and Poe. Damn if those two didn't have on-screen chemistry together! At the very least the writers should have really given them a stronger bromance, even if they kept it straight.
I have it on good advice that the Love Triangle is the best of all ideas, and that every single story should have one. Wait... not "good" writing advice... Terrible Writing Advice.
Like "accidental" cheating. I hate when they have a character play dumb, and they get in a moment where basically they cheat on their partner, but the movie acts like it doesn't count because the character didn't notice.
Example of #4 except when it works is ending of Shrek when Donkey motivates Shrek and has Dragon fly them to stop Fiona's wedding. Also Dragon eats Farquad.
Plus that "Shrek" is a satire on fairy tale movies, with even the wedding scene having cue cards and Farquaad choosing Fiona earlier in the movie as if it was a dating program
The romance cliche I hate is the lazy underdog guy winning the girl at the end simply because her current boyfriend treats her so horribly she has to run to the protagonist for a slightly less awful relationship.
I think the mutual breakup scene works in You've Got Mail because it was really on point for the rest of their relationship - they weren't really lovers so much as friends, and they had slowly fallen out of love with each other over the years without some impetus that warranted a breakup. They were both just kind of waiting for it to end, and when it finally did, it was a relief.
Also, I think it’s fair to say that Kathleen Kelly would’ve worked harder to maintain that relationship with Frank (and been jealous of his flirtation with the reporter) if she hadn’t already developed feelings for Joe’s online persona and was actively looking for an exit strategy to pursue him. So she jumped at the chance to give Frank his freedom without a fight. Had Frank wanted to break up in the first minute of the movie we surely would’ve seen Kathleen crying about it then. It was all consistent with the timing and development of the side relationships. And Frank probably felt her pulling slightly away which emboldened him to press for the breakup. It works in this nearly perfect movie.
Plus, if she had broken up with Frank to be with Joe, it'd be too much like Sleepless in Seattle, which played out that exact scenario with the same two leads. Bill Pullman rocked that scene, IMO.
Yeah; I think it was more of a surprise in You've Got Mail than fulfillment of a cliche. If they were interested in clichés, the moment would have been less mutual, thus checking off the "love triangle" box.
The miscommunication trope immediately kills the likeability of both the characters involved. They "suffer intense emotional pain" and "existential loneliness" which could be completely avoided by saying a simple sentence out loud. When characters act like stroppy teens, they become as disliked as stroppy teens.
Not only that, there are fanfiction stories where it shows the consequences of the miscommunication trope, while there are fanfiction stories where the couple try to make up for that mistake. Even then, the miscommunication trope isn't something I want to include in my stories.
I personally don't think that line is that bad. Because in context, Poe is just telling the Resistance what he's heard. He has no idea how Palpatine returned. Just that word got out that somehow Palpatine returned. It was never intended as an explanation of how Palpatine returned or exposition. He was just informing the Resistance. The real lazy line is at the bigenning when Palpatinees excuse is "The Dark side is the pathway to many abilities some may consider unnatural." Ok? Palpatine, but like how?
I often find it weird when an entire romance happens within the span of a single movie. Even if there's chemistry between them, it'd be interesting to see more stories that end with characters deciding to go on a date and seeing where it goes instead of going right to kissing/canoodling.
That's one of the reasons I've been watching a lot of Korean and Chinese dramas. These are usually 15 to 30 hours of total runtime, which gives plenty of time for a satisfying romance to realistically and organically develop. That simply can't be done in a 90 minute movie.
One of the things I love about the animated Mulan movie. So much more believable and realistic. And nothing more is needed since the audience can just fill in what happens after the movie themselves. :)
@@leigh-anjohnson Yes! Been watching kdramas for years and recently started watching cdramas. One thing I give really refreshing is they don't seem to follow Western conventions for pacing and structure.
The tacked on romance was also between Finn and Rose in The Last Jedi. The part I really hated was when they kissed as the wall exploded behind them. Felt like something out of Starship Troopers.
my least favorite romance trope has gotta be the slow burn romance that goes nowhere. mordecai’s failed romances in regular show *did* develop him as a character but my god it was painful to see ride out
Regarding tacked on romance, I have an anecdote about it. Many years ago I wrote a script for a crime movie and I asked a friend, who is a professional actor, to take a look at it. The script wasn't good for many reasons (too much description, too many details, too much dialogue, etc.) But he told me something important was lacking: a romance subplot between the male lead (a private eye) and the female lead (the widow of a reformed mobster). He told me one of the things producers wanted to make a movie profitable was a romantic subplot with two good looking (and as famous as possible) actors getting it on.
In this case, the viewers will expect a romance between the private eye and a female character involved in the case. You will have to work in telling the viewer that this isn't going to be part of the story to work. How Frame Roger Rabbit is a good example of how to do this right.
@@ShinGallon And that's largely because Rian Johnson ended the trilogy in "The Last Jedi". I suspect that just as J. J. Abrams was instructed to make "The Force Awakens" analogous to "A New Hope" (even to the point of having X-wings flying down a trench to destroy a superweapon), Rian Johnson was directed to make "The Last Jedi" analogous to "The Empire Strikes Back" -- except he went one further and merged ESB with "Return of the Jedi" to make TLJ (right down to having a throne room sequence with the new evil guy in charge). By the time TLJ was over, both ESB and ROTJ's material had been covered. Episode IX, then, could've gone *anywhere* -- it didn't even have to be an end to a forced trilogy, it could've been Episode IX of who knows how many Star Wars episodes. But the studio was so locked into its plan to have a final trilogy that it returned unopened every gift Rian Johnson had given them.
@@MichaelJPartyka The entire sequel trilogy is just one big case study in why you should have your entire trilogy already written before you film a single scene.
I think it's valid, but only if it isn't presented as a good and valid relationship. I'm not saying the writing should judge the relationship, but don't hide what's terrible about it either.
5:44 Why is he breaking up with her in a restaurant? He must have thought that she would probably get emotional, so it seems odd that he chose a public place where it would cause embarrassment for both of them.
One of the ones I hate is the abusive/toxic relationship that becomes at least semi-healthy. The "I can change him" or "He is an asshole to everybody, but eventually loves/adores me" trope. While that's a great story, or it can be, showing development and growth... It perpetuates this really unhealthy, and unsafe, idea in the (largely female) audience's mind. It perpetuates the "He'll change" and "but I love him" mindsets in toxic, abusive relationships IRL. It perpetuates the continual acceptance of these relationships, right on into domestic violence territory.
Also Mr Darcy. And somehow he is the best loved hero in Austen's works. There is no denying how great an appeal this stuff has (and always has had) for women.
@@patnor7354 In the case of Mr Darcy, it works because the character does genuinly change for the better and his rude behaviour has real consequences. Elizabeth Bennet rejects his proposal and really tears him down, says his manners aren't gentlemanly and that he was the last man in the world she would marry. To Darcy who is very much in love with her, that last line must've hurt like hell. And his rudeness damaged his reputation in Meryton and made the people there, and the Bennets, more inclined to believe and trust Wickham and his lies.
#2 really irritates me. I've seen several movies (in different genres) where the woman breaks up with the man because of a misunderstanding, which is then resolved entirely by (drum roll please)... the man apologizing for hurting her without giving any explanation. A couple of examples off the top of my head are one in which the lead female was walking past a hallway at a party and looked up in the split second that the male protagonist was kissing another girl. The other girl was evil, and had come out of another room and surprised the man, who was disgusted by her and the kiss, because she hated the other woman and wanted them to break up. The other was in a comedy about a man who was addicted to sex, but began to find it unfulfilling. Near the end, he handcuffed himself to the bed to keep from touching himself while waiting for the girl he'd fallen in love with to stop by. When that girl came to his place, *he was literally being raped* by another woman, who was doing it to get money. In the end of both of these, there was no discussion with the two romantic leads. It was entirely the woman saying "You hurt me", and the man saying "I'm really sorry and it will never happen again.".
The second one is 40 Days and 40 Nights and i've found that part of the movie utter ridiculous even the first time i saw it and at the time i was a teenager affected by hormones that wanted to be in the guy's place cause i didn't know any better.
Yes, that scene at the end of 40 days and 40 nights was so unrealistic and a real vibe killer. I think anyone of us could've written a better replacement scene. Love that movie but wth was that??
The only thing is that movie sounds all too weird. Movies about sex and not love I find totally uninteresting. Rape movies, either the man or woman raping, isn't a recipe for love.
There are a few examples of miscommunication causing a break up. In the first Shrek, he hears Fiona talking about not wanting to be with a monster. Shrek would have no reason to think she was talking about herself in the 3rd person, so the comment makes sense with the plot but also works with what Shrek knows by that point in the movie. it really adds a lot of tension and allows Shrek to act like a selfless hero in the third act
I hate tropes that pass off unhealthy relationship dynamics as romantic. For example, when one character obessively chases a reluctant love interest; when there is a huge power dynamic; jealousy disguised as love. Even the belief in soulmates can be a red flag.
@@oliverford5367Exactly. I know this dilemma when it comes to Teen Dramas (PLL and Gossip Girl come to mind), but I want an unrealistic love sold to me. I like those dramatic (not melodramatic!) characters and toxic love relationships. But they could be less romanticized, that‘s one thing I agree on.
I hate when shared traumatic events turn suddenly into sexual encounters ("we escaped the terrorists, let's go to bed right now."). This is especially grievous when the characters are ostensibly intelligent and mature, and the event was brief. Also, when characters who are virtual strangers to each other suddenly become amorous midway through an unresolved encounter: like if they're fleeing from pursuers and get a brief respite to sleep in the woods or a cheap hotel. It doesn't makes sense that these two would feel safe enough to let their guard down and get romantic in that setting.
The first I thought of was Speed. But that "romance" was both so obviously tacked on and so shallow it didn't even disrupt much. And the film was well aware of it as well.
I don't think I agree. High emotions and sudden feeling of relief, and you need the connection to someone. It's pretty common for people to seek intimacy after big, stressful, emotional moments.
The worst for me is the misunderstanding/miscommunication because it's just predictable that they'll get together again or when characters break up off screen because of a miscommunication. Another is when characters break up, get back together break up again and so on and so on. My final one is when a character (an obsessed on at that) is able to hook up with the girl/guy after doing stalker like behavior such as following, trespassing or disguising themselves just to get closer to the girl/guy even for comedy purposes it's just weird.
I can understand that last one but I still think it can work as long as the 2 characters are actually good friends to each other. Idk maybe I just have a soft spot for things like that but I can understand why one would dislike it.
I especially hate miscommunications where the issue can be solved in the span of two sentences ("I saw you kissing that woman!" "She's my sister!"), but the story contrives to never let the characters have a scene where they talk to each other about it. This is especially common in historical romance. And, sure, partly it's the social conventions at the time, but often it just feels like the writer is struggling to figure out a way to extend this super-easily-solved conflict. I want to shake the characters by the lapels and shout "USE YOUR WORDS DAMNIT!"
Miscommunication is one of my pet peeves for sure. Not just in romances, but in general. "I have to tell you this super important thing that's integral to the movie's conflict!" "...not now, we don't have time. We have to go on this super unnecessary side mission that we could totally avoid if I let you tell me what you know!"
I hate the conflation of infatuation and love, as if couples who aren't passionately distracted by each other somehow don't love each other. That flare of excitement is great, but it's useless, like the blazing flash when you light a match vs the useful but less sensational steady flame that follows. I hate seeing a couple break up because "the passion is gone". If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, water your own lawn.
Ah, the misunderstanding. My absolute least favorite. That is probably every single Hallmark Channel movie back to the beginning of HC. I’d love to get more Do’s and Don’ts on romance in writing.
I hate 90% of the miscommunication breakup. The last book I read that had it at the 75% mark and was the last conflict of the story and it took everything in me to not throw my phone down and quit reading. It was so cliche it physically hurt to read. I want a character like me, who over communicates/explains to the point where once I'm in a steady relationship I simply cease the over communication and assumes that my partner, friend or family member can read my mind and inherently decode what was said into something that makes more sense. Words are so hard sometimes.
I hate when one or both of the love interests exhibit a series of toxic behaviour that in many cases is borderline abusive and in the end they still get together or all is forgiven because "love makes you do crazy things." See Ross and Rachel. By the end I don't feel like they're gonna live happily ever after. I feel like they're gonna end up killing each other because their relationship is so volatile and they're always hurting each other. Now he's convinced her to give up her dream job to be with him in the end and we've just to assume that it's gonna be different than the other 999 times they've gotten back together? How? There are hundreds of shows and movies that follow couples like this where they keep doing terrible things to each other and you're supposed to want them to make it and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me.
Also when there is a break up and both couples start having wild sex with other partners, only to get back together. it makes both characters seem shallow
One thing for sure: Enough with introducing the character’s love interest by having her or him walking down the hallway in slow motion, smiling at their friends, and waving their hair to the side acting like they are tough, hot shit.
I don't mind mutual breakups IF the characters are clearly in a bad relationship but as the story goes on they come to realize that through trials and tribulations. What I don't like about the mutual breakup is exactly as you said, the lack of conflict. If there is going to be a mutual breakup it would be more interesting if both parties were still hurt during the breakup but they knew they had to go through with it because things would only get worse if they stayed together. I'd prefer if the ending was bittersweet like that.
I agree with this. It's not that mutual breakups are inherently bad, or that breakups without conflict are unrealistic, but for the former it's more about how they're handled, and for the latter it's about what's realistic isn't always good for a story, since real life is very often undramatic and plain. For mutual breakups to work, the relationship needs to be shown as not working out for either of the involved. Having a working relationship but a newer, hotter flame shows up that breaks it apart (especially on both sides) just feels cheap. In essence, the breakup needs to be a plot in itself, not a driver to free a character up for a different relationship.
I hate love triangles and the fucking childhood friends to lovers trope (because of how unrealistic and overused it is). Watching people meet and genuinely fall inlove with each other, while having undeniable chemistry is just perfect.
I hate tense and jealous filled romance tropes. I don’t remember any examples, mostly because I’ve purged them from my memory, but I hate it when the two are constantly stepping around each other and so sensitive about every little detail. “What were you doing”? “Were you cheating on me”? “Do you think she’s hot”? “What would you do if I left you”? AHHHH!!! Stop!! I hate it so much!
Astute observations, Brandon! Insightful, as always. I think the most overdone cliche is the concept of "love at first sight." One can't really "fall in love" with a person's physical appearance and while we may initially be drawn to someone's looks, it's what's inside that counts!
There's nothing worse than when a character keeps yelling "Listen to me!" instead of just finally say what they want to say despite another one yelling back "No I don't want to listen to you." xD
My biggest romance cliche is when a romantic partner is in the story for the sake of it. The romance doesn't feel earned, it feels forced because it is. And yes, people can fall in love with each other just like that but for a story perspective you gotta do it better than that. My protagonist crushes on the friend group's girl but does not talk about his emotions, because he's afraid he will lose control of his anger once/if a break up happens. I want to use this as a way of telling that everyone deserves love. Though, sometimes it can be too late, like with Kylo here. But the point is, this romance doesn't just happen, it has purpose and meaning and both sides are deep characters, not just romantic devices to make the character feel better or whatever.
Someone professing their love to someone else in public and the people watching these two having their climatic kiss responds in clapping, whistling, cheering, screams and crying. *UUggghhh*
I love the content in these videos but your delivery is the rocket fuel behind them. Word choices, tone, pacing. I smile through the whole thing and I learn from them. You're really good at this. 😊
The tropes I hate are: 1) girl pursues toxic relationship just because the guy is hot (and / or rich), without any character development toward recognizing the unhealthy situation and moving on. The stories that glorify abuse as okay as long as the partner is aesthetically pretty. 2) Love triangles. Either make a choice and commit, or walk away. If you can't decide, I'll have enough self respect to decide for you and walk away. Sometimes this ties into #1, with the girl who can't choose between the "hot, dangerous guy" and "the boy next door". There are more that irk me, but those two are dealbreakers.
The sad part is how true to life it rings. In at least a few reports, the top two things by far girls look for in a guy is being tall, and money. It might be skewed more towards the dating sphere, but still.
Public declaration of love - at the airport, in the airplane, at a wedding, a company event. Sometimes they are handled well (The Wedding Singer). I prefer a more grounded renconciliation. Home For the Holidays is just right. She is on the plane. He gets on and they talk. And the ending is not fairy tale.
This may not qualify as a hated cliché, but it’s a writing technique in romances I hate. The author has the man withhold something about his past from the woman leading to conflict. But the information is also withheld from the reader, which is frustrating, especially if it’s written in 1st person. It’s no secret to the man, we’re inside his head, so wouldn’t letting the reader know the secret while keeping it from the woman make me more invested in them? When I know what he’s not sharing and why, the suspense isn’t ME finding out, but watching how the woman is reacting to his odd behavior and how she’ll react when she finds out.
Not just in romance, but in general, writing in first person and hiding things from the audience that person knows feels forced. It can be used well, but like with most things, it often isn't. I've read stories where the main character had something planned in advance, but that plan was never shown until execution, which would be where the protagonist seems to be losing. However, those that work either have explicit mentions of a plan, or good foreshadowing so it's obvious there is a plan. Otherwise it feels like an asspull. While it's still something the reader should know, it's a way to increase tension and keep the readers guessing what the protag will pull out. But it's more a matter of _what_ than _if,_ so at least for me it works a little better.
Currently writing a sci-fi romance movie and I was very excited to see this upload. Do you happen to know any tips for writing good romance? I’ve got a good dynamic between the 2 currently but I’d love any tips.
I second this as a video idea for you, Brandon McNulty. :) In the meantime, I'd recommend a video on youtube - channel is "English Nerd" and video is called "Tips for Writing Romance." It's an efficient checklist you can use.
Anime has a lot of those. Protagonist dragging on decision until the very end, where authors are too afraid to alienate fans of some girls too early, so nothing conclusive happens for as long as possible. The other one is the unnecessary potential romance interests. Happens in the same genre most often, we have a promising budding relationship, but then a new female character is added, and we get teased a romance between them, even though everyone knows it's not going to happen. Then another one, and another one. You had it just right already, stop adding more participants, it's just getting excess.
Thank you so much for this Brandon! I’m really struggling with a romantic story right now and I couldn’t quite put it into words as to why I was having so much trouble piecing my scenes together. These tips will definitely help me!
Oh, I have a list. All of yours are on it, but also: -A male character kissing a female to get her to shut up. *Especially* if she's rightfully pissed about something. That's so rude and disrespectful. -The "wear her down until she gives in" trope, and it's almost always a she. Actually, I'm going to expand this to any time a female character's agency is ignored/sacrificed to push her into a romantic plot. -A beautiful, smart, funny, amazing woman ends up with a bland, mediocre man Because The Plot Says So. -The double standard where a woman can look past a man's ugliness to love him, but you rarely see it in reverse. -The "big romantic gesture" that's more often than not humiliating at best and the culmination of a character basically stalking/harassing the love interest at worst. -That trope where the ex wife/girlfriend is about to remarry, and the loser protagonist manages to win her back at the last second. I either feel sorry for the guy left at the altar if he didn't do anything wrong, or roll my eyes if the story demonized him to make the plot work. Either way, the woman looks like an idiot. In the first case, she's often ditching a healthier relationship for her ex, where she knows she's taking a risk. In the second, she's not only about to marry this loser, but taking her ex back because even though the *audience* saw him change, she rarely does in-story. Exception: Shrek. Probably the ONE movie where this worked, and it worked because Shrek and Fiona weren't longterm before the wedding and still sorting their feelings for each other out. Also the rare exception where the miscommunication trope worked in the story's favor, because yes, it made Shrek and Fiona split until it got sorted out, but it was also a rare instance that shows the reality of how your own self-loathing can unwittingly affect others. -Abusive behavior portrayed as love. Some major ones: stalking, controlling behavior under the guise of "caring," public romantic gestures meant to pressure the love interest into saying yes, sabotaging the romantic competition, treating the love interest like a reward. -Love triangles in-general, but I *especially* hate ones where one potential love interest is demonized to the point you're wondering what she (and it's almost always a she) sees in him, and it's clear she'll pick the "good" guy in the end. Like, why bother? It's still a shitty trope, but you also took out what little conflict this trope actually had. -Chickening out of queer romance because the author clearly wants diversity points, but won't actually let the couple be together. At best, they'll get some moments, but the relationship is so vague, you wonder why they bothered. Cororally to this: I'll forgive this teasing in older works that were published in times where queer romance was less accepted, but in the modern day? No. Either do it or don't.
All excellent points. Romance stories have this really awful habit of portraying abuse and possessiveness as love and not, you know, horrifying. Also thank you for reminding me how utterly masterfully written Shrek was.
Although slightly f=different from your scenario, the very last scene of the "The Graduate" undermines the left-at-the-altar trope... those "Oh ****, what have we done?" looks on the faces of Benjamin and Elaine.
Some of your points on the list boils down to you wish men and women were the exact same sex and were treated as such. Sorry, but that’s asking for the whole history of mankind to be as impotently irate as you about reality. Never gonna happen. You have every right to be upset about whatever irks you but writing it down here where we can see it gives us a very revealing window into many things you are grossly missing in life. 🍿
As an aspiring romance novelist, this one resonated! There’s a fine line in that world between using tropes that elicit an eyeroll and using tropes to, er, elicit eyes rolling back 😅The ‘because the leads are hot and the plot says so, story be damned’ cliché grinds my gears - I saw this recently in a police thriller series, and it brought the whole series down because there was no chemistry, and there was no attraction conveyed in the script. Even the actors looked a bit like ‘are we gonna get this over and done with?’ They could have kept it and make the characters earn their romance, or even better, a friendship. And misunderstandings work well in farce (Frasier did this SO well), but unless it’s a screwball romance it’s just a lazy device to keep engagement for 100 more episodes/chapters.
So in the case of Hitch I think the misunderstanding is more forgivable in context. 1. It's not accidental, it's intentionally malicious misinformation from an antagonist (Charles Munse). 2. She comes at him aggressively because she's assuming he's playing her. 3. He becomes understandably defensive because it looked unlikely that she would stop and listen in her aggressive state and both thought they had the full story. It's the most realistic breakup I've seen in a movie.
I also hate the tacked-on romance (along with the overidealistic type of romance a la Hallmark) and often prefer to have a man and a woman being close companions without any romance involved. I especially can't stand the type of romance where the man is a simp/"nice guy"", and therefore only does good things for a woman to get into her pants. A lot of people complain about Quasimodo not getting the girl in Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", but the point was that Quasimodo is able to move on and save Esmeralda because it's the right thing to do
#5 is so true. Green arrow and black canary's relationship in justice league unlimited feels so forced. We knew green arrow had feelings for her in the beginning episode and the episode with her in it they just automatically get together without proper buildup. If they had been together in previous episodes or at least had that feeling of friendship they would actually work as a couple, but nope. They rushed their relationship, just like how they rushed the show.
The miscommunication trope is the worst, and that goes for regular friendships too; it's just one of the worst tropes in general. Aside from the reasons given, it's also just childish and often melodramatic. Adults should talk to each other if there's a perceived misunderstanding, not immediately fly off the handle. When I see or read characters doing that, I start to tune out.
Wow, when you mentioned the cliche for number 10, the first example that popped into my mind was Jurassic World. Was surprised when that was the exact example you went with. I’m listening to the video at work, so I didn’t even see the clips of the movie you used to tip me off.
#2 basically describes the plays Othello and A Midsummer Night's Dream. Though for sure Shakespeare isn't for everyone, and many things became cliché specifically by adapting his works for the Nth time, which can get annoying, I guess.
I really don't like the analysis of this topic because it assumes everyone's rational. But love and sexuality isn't rational! Othello is irrationally jealous, Iago is whispering in his ear and stirring. Yet that's real. People don't always open up and talk, they make assumptions, they get upset over silly things.
The one cliche that is used way too often (at the end of the movie) is when the loved one is about the leave the country by airplane. (Because of a stupid misunderstanding or whatever). And the main character has to rush to the airport to stop her (or him) before it's too late.
The worst Romance cliche is the female lead being desired by the male lead despite her not having any distinguishing qualities or features. Best example is Twilight. The girl has no character or personality. And she's not even attractive, yet both male leads obsess over her for no reason.
@@Halliwell0Rain that only makes sense if the girl is attractive, but in this movie she's not. It makes no sense!!! Another example is spider man. Mary J is not special AT ALL and for some reason Peter Parker is obsessed with her even after her becomes spider man and could get literally any woman.
As a person who doesn't really enjoy most romance plots, sub or otherwise, numbers 2-4 would actually get on my list of favorite romance cliches. I think it's because they take focus away from internal emotions and either make it an external conflict, like with #4, or make it more about resolving a more concrete issue, like with #2. #3 is just good because it means the plotline is ending usually, and it feels less "toxic" than other depictions.
Nice list. Some readers can become challenged in certain types of romances because they themselves just never experienced it in real life, first hand or otherwise. This can really swing for or against the cliche they're reading. Keep the videos coming 👍
I'm so glad you included Rey and Kylo Ren. That was one of the worst I have seen. There was not enough build up to it that it just felt so out of nowhere. I remember telling people after walking out of the theater how much I hated that moment. Great list! I also hate the miscommunication trope. Drives me crazy because it feels so unrealistic.
As someone who honest-to goodness likes Rey, I feel like their were so many better paths to take her character (while similarly promoting diversity) -Pairing Rey with Finn -Making Rey asexual -ANYTHING OTHER THAN REYLO!
Watching cheers and realizing most tv shows do the "will they won't they" because when your running for an indeterminate amount of seasons that's the easiest way to keep the story going and if it need be resolved it can be done in the last 5min.
That's where I think The Big Bang Theory really worked. Spoiler Alert! Leonard and Penny get together by about the third series, I think. The writers keep things interesting by having other characters have love interests. Howard and Bernadette, Sheldon and Amy's relationship, while happening fairly quickly, slowly burns with the physical side of the relationship, but that fits Sheldon's character well. And of course, Raj and his entourage of love adventures and mishaps. So, by introducing new characters and love interests it kept the show from getting old with cliches. The Big Bang Theory and perhaps Friends, and let's not forget Seinfeld are sitcoms that didn't get old and drag out. They should be compulsory study for writers of sitcoms.
@MyMusic-cd3do even though I'm not a big bang theory fan I can respect adding to the main cast later on. Like scrubs or how I met your mother or most shows, you meet the couple that's bound to get together in episode one. I understand in TV a second season isnt guaranteed, but I'd prefer new characters to join the fold later on especially if it's a long running series because thats more indictive of real life.
The miscommunication drama is top tier stupidity. So insulting to the audience. Arrogant fools that stupid are impossible for me to root for. I just put down the story. ... People can and do get stuck on miscommunication in real relationships, but that tends to happen over perspective, especially with feelings vs facts interpretations where the issues are difficult and long-entangled and the sides both become defensive. Miscommunication drama over the most shallow, easily-cleared-up matters, cause my eyes to hurt from rolling too hard.
Is it possible you'll make a video on ki-sho-ten-ketsu sometime? It's an alternative storytelling structure, like the western hero's journey. I think it could really profit some of us to raise awareness to it!
Is she worth it? To die for? Absolutely. That exchange from Robin Hood really sums up my worst annoyance if a heroine (or hero) isn't shown as earning or being worth the sacrifice of the hero (or vice versa) of course in a Samson and Delilah type story where the unhealthy relationship leads to The heroes downfall that's a different thread altogether
I haven’t read it in too many books, so it might not be an official trope yet, but the backed-into-a-corner sexual encounter makes me livid. It’s that moment in a romance where the experienced guy manipulates a situation so that the virgin/ good/ not interested girl ends up in his bed, usually reluctantly or absolutely petrified to give in. But he’s so tender, so charming, so commanding, that she doesn’t fight back. The marital assault scene in Gone With The Wind has traces of this trope. The worst offender though has to be this book by a prominent romance author where the virgin lead is terrified of the dark because it takes her back to the memory of hiding from her mother’s murderers in a hidden compartment in the floor while the slain woman’s blood dripped down onto her. This poor traumatized girl goes catatonic in the dark. The male lead kidnaps her and discovers her weakness. One night, after she makes him angry because he can’t take seeing her every day and not having her, he tells her that if she comes to his room for any reason during the night, she will be forfeiting her body. He then makes sure the only room with a light source in the house that night is his. And knowing she’ll seek the light he just leaves his bedroom door open so the light pours from the room. As he knew she would, the girl has a panic attack of paralysis and barely manages to crawl across the hall to his open door. He is standing in the glowing room, just waiting with a smile. When she gets to the threshold of his bedroom door, she’s shaking, crying, and somehow still not there. He picks her up, carries her to his bed and waits for her to cling to him in desperation before he coaxes her into sex. The worst part is, in the morning she’s not even angry about his manipulation. She’s just like “eh, he did warn me.” Any story where a girl is manipulated into giving a guy sex in exchange for something is an example of the backed-into-a-corner sexual encounter trope.
#1 is my most hated and the one I probably notice the most. I think it's the reason why I never appreciated romance in stories until fairly recently in my life. #4 I hadn't thought of why it was a bad idea before, but I agree it is ultimately unsatisfying.
I absolutely despise the "I can fix him/her" dynamic. Especially when the one who "needs to be fixed" is overly pushy and makes the other person's relationship fall apart because their partner is not as bad-boyish or confident.
Although not exactly a trope, it's disturbing to me that, ever since Twilight, a lot of Teen/YA stories pretty much *ROMANTICIZES* toxic relationships.
Something that really get to my nerves is when two characters, who met for about a couple of days, by the end of the movie are declaring eternal love for each other. I've noticed this happening the most in non romantic movies.
Ugh that last one was so painful and awkward and, as you said, unearned. When I saw Episode 7, I thought they were building a foundation for Finn and Rey to be endgame, and I was so onboard for that! And then all that was dropped in Episode 8. I haven't sat down to watch 7-9 through in one/close watchings, but even so I get the feeling that my takeaway will be that they are very disjointed stories that don't feel like parts of the same whole. It's kind of how I feel about the current phase of the MCU, expect those films do feel like they're somewhat trying to connect to each other, and most of them are not direct sequels of each other.
I like your commentary on these various films. I do disagree with your criticism of You've Got Mail. Your suggestion, that the breakup with the rival should have been more difficult would have been more dramatic is right. But YGM is a near-perfect rom-com, IMHO. The writers took a lot of risks with the plot, and made unexpected and often quirky decisions. The mutual breakup in YGM fits perfectly with the ethos of the story, which is full of ironic departures from established romance tropes. I thought it was a good choice at the time, and I still do. But everyone has their own opinion about these things. Also, you were spot-on about Hitch. Misunderstandings are always a weak plot-point in Romance, though they can sometimes work, as in the case of An Affair to Remember.
The soulmate trope is what gets me. And not the idea that you can BECOME soulmates with someone. But the pre-determined idea of soulmates, not having a choice in who you love. It seems so toxic and maybe it's because I like having control of my own life, but it gives me the ick everytime.
#2 is one the things I hate in stories the most, and that goes beyong just romance and relationships, using miscommunication as the crux for an entire story is VERY common, I've seen this a lot not just in movies, but also series and even video games. When all the problems in the story could have been prevented by ppl simply acting like adults and talking to clear up the miscommunications and wrong assumptions, well that's the momento I tap out, I simply can't get immersed when I see this stupid and lazy cliche.
Romantic storylines are one of my personal ways to explore characters and the dynamics between them (not just the characters who are getting romantically involved, but also the characters in their immediate orbit). However, it's one of those things that definitely needs effort to make work effectively, and even moreso to make it engaging and thematic. Personally, I believe romances are easiest to write when you view them as the "reward" for the characters involved; having it be directly tied to their respective character growth and only pulling the trigger at the end of a respective arc, once both are fully developed. Or for characters who are already in established relationships, use whatever challenges confront them (be they internal or external) as a vessel to make it stronger at the end, even if it means temporarily pulling the two apart (or even permanently, in order to transition the relationship in a new direction other than romantic, if that is what works best for your story). Of course, this doesn't work for all stories or writers, but it's what works for me.
I think this video is spot on, as usual. I don’t even think they are cliche they are just bad. But I also think all five work well for comedic effect. Also, in the case of Star Wars, Kilo and ray could have been used to bolster the characters. Either ray rejecting him or kilo killing her. It would have been legendary either way
The cliche i hate the most is the forced toxic relationship. Movies like 50 shade, after, the kissing booth and 365 days have EXTREME TOXIC MALE and they make you believe they are the good one for the girl that sacrifice everything just to be with him.
When one lover takes the other to somewhere closed. A museum, stadium, train station, whatever. An example thats easy to find on television would be Ross and Rachel first time on Friends.
None of the Rom Coms I saw in the last 20 years do it for me and you did a great job explaining why. I'm a screenwriter. The Sidekick one is the one that bothers me the most. Your friends don't do that for you in real life, they don't care. And you're totally right, it diminishes the reunion. It's like there's no conviction of them wanting each other. It was just the doing of the friends. The only good ones were Say Anything, Pretty Woman, and She's All That. In those ones, it wasn't their friends, it was them. Their friends just sat back and admired them, which is what happens in real life too. My Rom Com does that.
I hate the love polygon, where the romance interest is somehow subverted by other relationships only to get together in the end for any of the reasons listed in the video. And we all knew it was going to happen from the beginning. Probably higher on my romance cliche hate list is the big speech/confession at a huge event in front of an audience of people who patiently stand around and let them say what they have to say. No one cuts the sound, drags them off stage, heckles them, etc. etc. I know they''re going for the big climax scene, but I think it is just lazy writing that makes me cringe every time it happens.
What I hate most about miscommunication the way it usually plays out in media that the takeaway to me seems to always be "one or both of these people isn't mature enough to talk about an issue directly, let alone tackle a problem together, thus proving they're not fit to be in this relationship" but then the story pretends they're meant to be TM and at this point I can't buy it. If you're jerks and can't hold a conversation why would I root for you?
The biggest cliche is putting two characters together for simply existing in the story as two attractive people 🤷♂️
A forced romance in movies when there is no chemistry between the actors is just awful.
@@zanzaboonda Agreed. Writing, casting, and directing something as painful as the Anakin/Padme dialogue and dynamic requires a lack of talent and skill. A writer's lack of affinity for a genre can spawn a unique strain of bad writing.
🎯
@@super-luckabsol4834Am I the only one on this entire planet who thinks Anakin/Padme isn’t bad? It’s just misunderstood and makes sense in context.
@reyaThe problem is that it's dreadfully written and the relationship between Anakin and Padme never feels real. It feels like two working colleagues standing next to each other feeling visibly uncomfortable because the script tell them to get intimate with each other.
“When I saw this in theatres I flinched like a truck had run over my foot”
The Star Wars sequels never fail to get memorable reponses
Sad thing is, a lot of people felt and reacted the same way. My friends and I did.
Honestly, a silent message or even a hug would not have been so jarring.
@@fallen_Spartan79 so did I, the same saga that gave us “I am your Father”, then Luke using his connection with Leia to call her to him and save him. The saga that gave us “if you strike me down i shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine”, Luke choosing death and the belief there is good in his father over falling to the darks side in ROtJ. The same saga that gave us “you’re all clear kid, now let’s blow this thing go home!”
…Also has Leia flying through the vacuum of space. I can still only consider episodes 1-6 as my head canon aha.
I fell asleep in the theater 😂 I woke up just as Kylo sacrificed his life and I thought I missed this great romance that had developed. Nope!
A really good couple that breaks up because they writers don't know what to do with the two characters and they need drama
Fox and Krystal in Command fit this
I hate, hate, HATE cliche #2 - the contrived, almost never believable breakup due to a misunderstanding. One variation of this (common in Korean dramas), is when one of the characters temporarily becomes a voluntary mute. The character with the misunderstanding clearly communicates the misunderstanding to the other character, who could then correct the misunderstanding with a single sentence. But instead of speaking this sentence, they just stand in silence (usually with a blank look on their face), as if they temporarily forget that their mouth can be used for talking. It's terrible, lazy and just stupid writing, yet it still happens.
Voluntary mute? How can I persuade my wife to try this?
Yes. I don't understand, because one of the goals if not the major goal in the romance genre is to create the feeling that these characters belong together. So, why do they break up, don't wanna talk, or "give up" on the relationship so easily? It doesn't make sense to me. Because that doesn't give the emotion to the audience to be rooting for them. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy break-up arcs, but it has to be well written, with the character's communication, and have a REASONABLE motive. But unfortunately, a lot of writers are scared to give the characters flaws and mistakes. Instead, the only way they can include this type of arc with these perfect angel beings is through miscommunication.
@@iago2682u The first Shrek is a good example of how to do a miscommunication break up. its down perfectly, and at just the right moment in the movie. also it doesn't feel contrived because Shrek has no reason to think fiona would refer to herself as a monster
@@benjaminwatt2436 Yes, Jane Austen also uses miscommunication in Pride and Prejudice and it's done very well, I think that every rule has its exceptions. But unfortunately, a lot of stories that use this type of arc don't explore it to its full potential
That sounds hideous!
Dragged out "will they, won't they" has to be my #1. There is nothing that frustrates me more about romance subplots than when the characters _do_ have that chemistry that makes them a fun and sweet couple, but they keep dancing around it and never get together until the very end of the story, and you never actually get to see their relationship.
This was a TV series issue. This was the sole plot of Moonlighting, Remmington Steele, Scarecrow and Mrs. King, ad. infinitum. Once the main characters finally got together, the writers didn't have anything else and the shows died off pretty quick.
@@blshouse That's why I liked it in Brooklyn Nine-Nine when Jake and Amy got together at the end of the second season and that was just how it stayed for the rest of the series. Instead of having them break up for drama every 10 episodes, the writers just developed their relationship further and created all-new chemistry between them alongside building off of the chemistry that was already there. Turns out you can decide not to drag it out forever and _still_ hook your audience, who knew!
Love Is War
@@blshouse Actually, it's the other way around. Once the chemistry moves into fulfillment, the audience stops watching. TV romances where they marry the couple or they have sex finally is like having an orgasm for the viewers. Foreplay is anticipation. Foreplay appeals to women. Build romance, they have years of foreplay, and finally the couple have sex. That sex is the mental orgasm of viewers. And like real sex, you're done until the next time you begin building with foreplay. And it's that first time that;s the sweetest. Any producer will tell you to can any sex if you have romantic leads, because that become a major factor of what is keeping you watching. Remove that and the show tanks.
The interrupted kiss is one cliché I hate. Two characters are having a romantic moment, they are moments away from kissing, and then the wacky sidekick barges in and stops them, oops!
But then it takes 4 more episodes for the characters to find that moment again....
I personally don't mind it too much, but that's probably cause it means less kissing and I'm not a fan of kissing
Along with this, I hate the “wacky” side kick who is only good for a comic relief. “Stupid” characters are stupid.
@@modestfirerpuOda’s Usop “The GOD!” Says otherwise. (from One Piece)
I'm fine with the interruption if it's funny, if not than it feels kind of pointless. If there's no one to laugh at than just have them kiss.
The miscommunication one is the worst for me. Especially if the entire conflict depends solely on two people not being able to have a normal conversation and say things any normal, sane person would say.
Sooo many movie conflicts would be resolved by a 5 min conversation
Yea, this is my most hated clechè too. Especially when you watched it and think how can this to people to be so dumm and are unable to comunicate when I was 13 I always wished to jump in the movie/series and jealed to the main couple to just comunicate becouse I couldn't stand it anymore to wach this
I only have three examples of this trope that I don't hate:
-The Nightmare Before Christmas. The miscommunication comes as a result of character clash. Sally tries to warn Jack about her vision, but she's not an assertive character, so she can't get him to understand what she's trying to tell him, and Jack is too wrapped up in his excitement to hear what Sally is actually saying. It's a believable scenario that happens all the time IRL, and Sally did try a few times to make Jack understand.
-Shrek, which has a similar premise where what Shrek overhears Fiona saying is understandable, and serves as an example of how your own self-loathing can unwittingly affect others. Fiona's talking about herself, but it's understandable that what Shrek overhears can apply to himself.
-Gravity Falls. One episode has Dipper and Mabel going off to do different things, and they have walkie talkies to communicate. It's understandable there's a communication issue when Dipper's adventure leads him to accidentally activate a UFO that pulls him out of range when Mabel is trying to call him, so her messages either get cut off or only partially get through.
But the fact that I have very few examples of this trope working for the plot is pretty telling. It *can* work, if the writer is willing to put in the effort to make it work. But most writers don't.
For me, it's the COMPULSION for a relationship to become romantic. Like, if these two characters are best friends, then CLEARLY they must be romantically involved, desperately thirsting for each other, practically having babies already... Or they could just be good friends and leave it at that? Honestly, I feel romance is the lazy cop-out and a deep, meaningful platonic relationship (especially between a guy and a girl) is the harder one to write.
There's an Indie movie I saw a year or so back. I can't remember the name, but it did that. They stayed friends all through the movie and didn't even kiss. I was surprised. It struck me harder than all that shallow Rom Com bullshit.
I'm surprised you didn't mention The Last Jedi. The romance between Finn and Rose made my eyes roll to the back of my head
And then they threw it out the next movie. Huge waste of time. They should’ve just made them good friends
You forgot the scare quotes around "romance".
I hate gaymances in general, because I'm a bigot and all that, but still even I was on board for shipping Finn and Poe. Damn if those two didn't have on-screen chemistry together! At the very least the writers should have really given them a stronger bromance, even if they kept it straight.
The last Jedi is a stand alone chapter on history telling. It's so awful you can make a 2h documentary on how it sucks.
I'd say the Love Triangle is the worst romance cliche. 99% of the time it's just used to drag stuff on for a long time in a TV series.
I have it on good advice that the Love Triangle is the best of all ideas, and that every single story should have one. Wait... not "good" writing advice... Terrible Writing Advice.
This list is mostly about cliches that are 100% guaranteed to be bad. 99% doesn't cut it.
As someone who've spent many years reading mostly jap light novels, I'll take a triangle over a god forsaken harem any day. Send help.
Enter: The Love Rhombus
@@Scantronimus466why stop there? How about a love octagon?
When one person does something to the other that crosses the legal line but it's ok because love.
Like "accidental" cheating. I hate when they have a character play dumb, and they get in a moment where basically they cheat on their partner, but the movie acts like it doesn't count because the character didn't notice.
@@benjaminwatt2436I think they mean stalking or assault as courtship or expression of love
Example of #4 except when it works is ending of Shrek when Donkey motivates Shrek and has Dragon fly them to stop Fiona's wedding. Also Dragon eats Farquad.
Plus that "Shrek" is a satire on fairy tale movies, with even the wedding scene having cue cards and Farquaad choosing Fiona earlier in the movie as if it was a dating program
A lot of films unnecessarily include a romantic interest for the protagonist, when instead they should simply focus on the main story goal.
The romance cliche I hate is the lazy underdog guy winning the girl at the end simply because her current boyfriend treats her so horribly she has to run to the protagonist for a slightly less awful relationship.
It’s a crappy trope and I hate it, it’s just lazy. …And I hate to admit it but Little Shop of Horrors is still one of my favorite movies ever
I think the mutual breakup scene works in You've Got Mail because it was really on point for the rest of their relationship - they weren't really lovers so much as friends, and they had slowly fallen out of love with each other over the years without some impetus that warranted a breakup. They were both just kind of waiting for it to end, and when it finally did, it was a relief.
I agree this was a great moment in the movie it fits the tone of the movie
Also, I think it’s fair to say that Kathleen Kelly would’ve worked harder to maintain that relationship with Frank (and been jealous of his flirtation with the reporter) if she hadn’t already developed feelings for Joe’s online persona and was actively looking for an exit strategy to pursue him. So she jumped at the chance to give Frank his freedom without a fight. Had Frank wanted to break up in the first minute of the movie we surely would’ve seen Kathleen crying about it then. It was all consistent with the timing and development of the side relationships. And Frank probably felt her pulling slightly away which emboldened him to press for the breakup. It works in this nearly perfect movie.
Plus, if she had broken up with Frank to be with Joe, it'd be too much like Sleepless in Seattle, which played out that exact scenario with the same two leads. Bill Pullman rocked that scene, IMO.
@@radmomthoughts3507 I haven't watched Sleepless in Seattle in many years. I'll have to give that scene a rewatch!
Yeah; I think it was more of a surprise in You've Got Mail than fulfillment of a cliche. If they were interested in clichés, the moment would have been less mutual, thus checking off the "love triangle" box.
I've had all five of these things basically happen in my own life. They don't even feel realistic when they're actually happening to you.
You must have an eventful life lol
Nickname checks out
Same but it's tired and boring as shit to read
SOOO glad you touched on the Rey and Kylo fiasco... I felt exactly the same way and actually cringed as well as dropped my jaw from shock.
I started laughing in the theater because it was so bizarre. XD
The miscommunication trope immediately kills the likeability of both the characters involved. They "suffer intense emotional pain" and "existential loneliness" which could be completely avoided by saying a simple sentence out loud.
When characters act like stroppy teens, they become as disliked as stroppy teens.
Not only that, there are fanfiction stories where it shows the consequences of the miscommunication trope, while there are fanfiction stories where the couple try to make up for that mistake.
Even then, the miscommunication trope isn't something I want to include in my stories.
Somehow Palpatine returned. The best line in the last decade.
😂
I'll buy that for a dollar!
Better than studying spiders in the Amazon?
@@blshousea dollar? Take your hat off son it’s a dollar!
I personally don't think that line is that bad. Because in context, Poe is just telling the Resistance what he's heard. He has no idea how Palpatine returned. Just that word got out that somehow Palpatine returned. It was never intended as an explanation of how Palpatine returned or exposition. He was just informing the Resistance. The real lazy line is at the bigenning when Palpatinees excuse is "The Dark side is the pathway to many abilities some may consider unnatural." Ok? Palpatine, but like how?
I often find it weird when an entire romance happens within the span of a single movie. Even if there's chemistry between them, it'd be interesting to see more stories that end with characters deciding to go on a date and seeing where it goes instead of going right to kissing/canoodling.
That's one of the reasons I've been watching a lot of Korean and Chinese dramas. These are usually 15 to 30 hours of total runtime, which gives plenty of time for a satisfying romance to realistically and organically develop. That simply can't be done in a 90 minute movie.
One of the things I love about the animated Mulan movie. So much more believable and realistic. And nothing more is needed since the audience can just fill in what happens after the movie themselves. :)
@@1970PhoenixI got sucked into k and c dramas recently. Moon Lovers and The Untamed are my favorites right now
@@leigh-anjohnson Yes! Been watching kdramas for years and recently started watching cdramas. One thing I give really refreshing is they don't seem to follow Western conventions for pacing and structure.
@@leigh-anjohnson You might try Meteor Garden and Boys Over Flowers. My wife and daughter love both and I find them very tolerable.
The tacked on romance was also between Finn and Rose in The Last Jedi. The part I really hated was when they kissed as the wall exploded behind them. Felt like something out of Starship Troopers.
So romantic when she talked about “saving what we love” as everyone died.
I can forgive that for the simple fact that Finn was as utterly confused as we were. I could buy that Rose was that kind of idealist.
How dare you! Starship Troopers is a cinematic masterpiece! While being the absolute worst😂
my least favorite romance trope has gotta be the slow burn romance that goes nowhere. mordecai’s failed romances in regular show *did* develop him as a character but my god it was painful to see ride out
Regarding tacked on romance, I have an anecdote about it. Many years ago I wrote a script for a crime movie and I asked a friend, who is a professional actor, to take a look at it. The script wasn't good for many reasons (too much description, too many details, too much dialogue, etc.) But he told me something important was lacking: a romance subplot between the male lead (a private eye) and the female lead (the widow of a reformed mobster). He told me one of the things producers wanted to make a movie profitable was a romantic subplot with two good looking (and as famous as possible) actors getting it on.
In this case, the viewers will expect a romance between the private eye and a female character involved in the case. You will have to work in telling the viewer that this isn't going to be part of the story to work.
How Frame Roger Rabbit is a good example of how to do this right.
"The Rise of Skywalker" alone could probably provide a whole video series on bad writing choices.
It's like a masterclass in how NOT to end a trilogy.
@@ShinGallon And that's largely because Rian Johnson ended the trilogy in "The Last Jedi". I suspect that just as J. J. Abrams was instructed to make "The Force Awakens" analogous to "A New Hope" (even to the point of having X-wings flying down a trench to destroy a superweapon), Rian Johnson was directed to make "The Last Jedi" analogous to "The Empire Strikes Back" -- except he went one further and merged ESB with "Return of the Jedi" to make TLJ (right down to having a throne room sequence with the new evil guy in charge). By the time TLJ was over, both ESB and ROTJ's material had been covered. Episode IX, then, could've gone *anywhere* -- it didn't even have to be an end to a forced trilogy, it could've been Episode IX of who knows how many Star Wars episodes. But the studio was so locked into its plan to have a final trilogy that it returned unopened every gift Rian Johnson had given them.
@@MichaelJPartyka The entire sequel trilogy is just one big case study in why you should have your entire trilogy already written before you film a single scene.
Let's just acknowledge that all Disney SW movies are dumpster fires of writing and directing, including TFA and R1.
Agreed. I was really disappointed with that movie. Granted, I shouldn't have had my hopes up that high.
What romantic cliche do I dislike?
Two words: Stockholm Syndrome.
Whoa that’s a good one.
Michael De Santa: I hear Stockholm Syndrome is very nice this time of year
I think it's valid, but only if it isn't presented as a good and valid relationship. I'm not saying the writing should judge the relationship, but don't hide what's terrible about it either.
5:44 Why is he breaking up with her in a restaurant? He must have thought that she would probably get emotional, so it seems odd that he chose a public place where it would cause embarrassment for both of them.
One of the ones I hate is the abusive/toxic relationship that becomes at least semi-healthy. The "I can change him" or "He is an asshole to everybody, but eventually loves/adores me" trope. While that's a great story, or it can be, showing development and growth... It perpetuates this really unhealthy, and unsafe, idea in the (largely female) audience's mind. It perpetuates the "He'll change" and "but I love him" mindsets in toxic, abusive relationships IRL. It perpetuates the continual acceptance of these relationships, right on into domestic violence territory.
Christian Grey entered the chat
Thank you 😊. I prefer childhood friends to romance trope. Cleo & Lewis is a good example. So is Tom and Shannon in Wolfblood.
Also Mr Darcy. And somehow he is the best loved hero in Austen's works. There is no denying how great an appeal this stuff has (and always has had) for women.
@@patnor7354 In the case of Mr Darcy, it works because the character does genuinly change for the better and his rude behaviour has real consequences. Elizabeth Bennet rejects his proposal and really tears him down, says his manners aren't gentlemanly and that he was the last man in the world she would marry. To Darcy who is very much in love with her, that last line must've hurt like hell. And his rudeness damaged his reputation in Meryton and made the people there, and the Bennets, more inclined to believe and trust Wickham and his lies.
@@patnor7354 but people know Darcy is a bad person, right ?
#2 really irritates me. I've seen several movies (in different genres) where the woman breaks up with the man because of a misunderstanding, which is then resolved entirely by (drum roll please)... the man apologizing for hurting her without giving any explanation. A couple of examples off the top of my head are one in which the lead female was walking past a hallway at a party and looked up in the split second that the male protagonist was kissing another girl. The other girl was evil, and had come out of another room and surprised the man, who was disgusted by her and the kiss, because she hated the other woman and wanted them to break up. The other was in a comedy about a man who was addicted to sex, but began to find it unfulfilling. Near the end, he handcuffed himself to the bed to keep from touching himself while waiting for the girl he'd fallen in love with to stop by. When that girl came to his place, *he was literally being raped* by another woman, who was doing it to get money. In the end of both of these, there was no discussion with the two romantic leads. It was entirely the woman saying "You hurt me", and the man saying "I'm really sorry and it will never happen again.".
That’s so insufferable. Especially the second one, what the fuck.
The second one is 40 Days and 40 Nights and i've found that part of the movie utter ridiculous even the first time i saw it and at the time i was a teenager affected by hormones that wanted to be in the guy's place cause i didn't know any better.
Yes, that scene at the end of 40 days and 40 nights was so unrealistic and a real vibe killer. I think anyone of us could've written a better replacement scene. Love that movie but wth was that??
The only thing is that movie sounds all too weird. Movies about sex and not love I find totally uninteresting. Rape movies, either the man or woman raping, isn't a recipe for love.
"I flinched like a truck had run over my foot" OMG 😂😂😂
There are a few examples of miscommunication causing a break up. In the first Shrek, he hears Fiona talking about not wanting to be with a monster. Shrek would have no reason to think she was talking about herself in the 3rd person, so the comment makes sense with the plot but also works with what Shrek knows by that point in the movie. it really adds a lot of tension and allows Shrek to act like a selfless hero in the third act
I hate tropes that pass off unhealthy relationship dynamics as romantic. For example, when one character obessively chases a reluctant love interest; when there is a huge power dynamic; jealousy disguised as love. Even the belief in soulmates can be a red flag.
I agree. These toxic tropes are extremely common in Korean and Chinese Dramas, which I find frustrating.
You sound gay
But that makes it exciting and dramatic. Realistic and healthy = uncinematic
@@oliverford5367Exactly. I know this dilemma when it comes to Teen Dramas (PLL and Gossip Girl come to mind), but I want an unrealistic love sold to me. I like those dramatic (not melodramatic!) characters and toxic love relationships. But they could be less romanticized, that‘s one thing I agree on.
oh boy a tumblrite
I hate when shared traumatic events turn suddenly into sexual encounters ("we escaped the terrorists, let's go to bed right now."). This is especially grievous when the characters are ostensibly intelligent and mature, and the event was brief.
Also, when characters who are virtual strangers to each other suddenly become amorous midway through an unresolved encounter: like if they're fleeing from pursuers and get a brief respite to sleep in the woods or a cheap hotel. It doesn't makes sense that these two would feel safe enough to let their guard down and get romantic in that setting.
The first I thought of was Speed. But that "romance" was both so obviously tacked on and so shallow it didn't even disrupt much. And the film was well aware of it as well.
@@AnotherDuck The movie I think of is The Chase, with Charlie Sheen. They literally have sex while driving in a high-speed chase.
I don't think I agree. High emotions and sudden feeling of relief, and you need the connection to someone. It's pretty common for people to seek intimacy after big, stressful, emotional moments.
The worst for me is the misunderstanding/miscommunication because it's just predictable that they'll get together again or when characters break up off screen because of a miscommunication.
Another is when characters break up, get back together break up again and so on and so on.
My final one is when a character (an obsessed on at that) is able to hook up with the girl/guy after doing stalker like behavior such as following, trespassing or disguising themselves just to get closer to the girl/guy even for comedy purposes it's just weird.
I can understand that last one but I still think it can work as long as the 2 characters are actually good friends to each other. Idk maybe I just have a soft spot for things like that but I can understand why one would dislike it.
I especially hate miscommunications where the issue can be solved in the span of two sentences ("I saw you kissing that woman!" "She's my sister!"), but the story contrives to never let the characters have a scene where they talk to each other about it. This is especially common in historical romance. And, sure, partly it's the social conventions at the time, but often it just feels like the writer is struggling to figure out a way to extend this super-easily-solved conflict. I want to shake the characters by the lapels and shout "USE YOUR WORDS DAMNIT!"
Tbh if I saw my significant other kissing their sister like that...
Miscommunication is one of my pet peeves for sure. Not just in romances, but in general. "I have to tell you this super important thing that's integral to the movie's conflict!" "...not now, we don't have time. We have to go on this super unnecessary side mission that we could totally avoid if I let you tell me what you know!"
I hate the conflation of infatuation and love, as if couples who aren't passionately distracted by each other somehow don't love each other. That flare of excitement is great, but it's useless, like the blazing flash when you light a match vs the useful but less sensational steady flame that follows. I hate seeing a couple break up because "the passion is gone". If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, water your own lawn.
I like that! Water your own lawn! Love it.
Ah, the misunderstanding. My absolute least favorite. That is probably every single Hallmark Channel movie back to the beginning of HC. I’d love to get more Do’s and Don’ts on romance in writing.
I've got another romance-related video planned for next week, so keep an eye out for it
I look forward to it. It’ll probably help with the one I’m working on now, as well as a few others I’m considering.
I hate 90% of the miscommunication breakup. The last book I read that had it at the 75% mark and was the last conflict of the story and it took everything in me to not throw my phone down and quit reading. It was so cliche it physically hurt to read.
I want a character like me, who over communicates/explains to the point where once I'm in a steady relationship I simply cease the over communication and assumes that my partner, friend or family member can read my mind and inherently decode what was said into something that makes more sense. Words are so hard sometimes.
I hate when one or both of the love interests exhibit a series of toxic behaviour that in many cases is borderline abusive and in the end they still get together or all is forgiven because "love makes you do crazy things." See Ross and Rachel. By the end I don't feel like they're gonna live happily ever after. I feel like they're gonna end up killing each other because their relationship is so volatile and they're always hurting each other. Now he's convinced her to give up her dream job to be with him in the end and we've just to assume that it's gonna be different than the other 999 times they've gotten back together? How? There are hundreds of shows and movies that follow couples like this where they keep doing terrible things to each other and you're supposed to want them to make it and it's like nails on a chalkboard to me.
Exactly what I thought, when I saw it
Also when there is a break up and both couples start having wild sex with other partners, only to get back together. it makes both characters seem shallow
One thing for sure: Enough with introducing the character’s love interest by having her or him walking down the hallway in slow motion, smiling at their friends, and waving their hair to the side acting like they are tough, hot shit.
literally an average Disney channel film
I don't mind mutual breakups IF the characters are clearly in a bad relationship but as the story goes on they come to realize that through trials and tribulations. What I don't like about the mutual breakup is exactly as you said, the lack of conflict. If there is going to be a mutual breakup it would be more interesting if both parties were still hurt during the breakup but they knew they had to go through with it because things would only get worse if they stayed together. I'd prefer if the ending was bittersweet like that.
I agree with this. It's not that mutual breakups are inherently bad, or that breakups without conflict are unrealistic, but for the former it's more about how they're handled, and for the latter it's about what's realistic isn't always good for a story, since real life is very often undramatic and plain.
For mutual breakups to work, the relationship needs to be shown as not working out for either of the involved. Having a working relationship but a newer, hotter flame shows up that breaks it apart (especially on both sides) just feels cheap. In essence, the breakup needs to be a plot in itself, not a driver to free a character up for a different relationship.
I hate love triangles and the fucking childhood friends to lovers trope (because of how unrealistic and overused it is). Watching people meet and genuinely fall inlove with each other, while having undeniable chemistry is just perfect.
I hate tense and jealous filled romance tropes.
I don’t remember any examples, mostly because I’ve purged them from my memory, but I hate it when the two are constantly stepping around each other and so sensitive about every little detail.
“What were you doing”?
“Were you cheating on me”?
“Do you think she’s hot”?
“What would you do if I left you”?
AHHHH!!! Stop!! I hate it so much!
Jealousy and tense can work very well, but it‘s the shitty writing that ruins those aspects.
When a stalker gets what they want with no character building and their reasons is justified for simply being love
Astute observations, Brandon! Insightful, as always. I think the most overdone cliche is the concept of "love at first sight." One can't really "fall in love" with a person's physical appearance and while we may initially be drawn to someone's looks, it's what's inside that counts!
There's nothing worse than when a character keeps yelling "Listen to me!" instead of just finally say what they want to say despite another one yelling back "No I don't want to listen to you." xD
My biggest romance cliche is when a romantic partner is in the story for the sake of it. The romance doesn't feel earned, it feels forced because it is. And yes, people can fall in love with each other just like that but for a story perspective you gotta do it better than that. My protagonist crushes on the friend group's girl but does not talk about his emotions, because he's afraid he will lose control of his anger once/if a break up happens. I want to use this as a way of telling that everyone deserves love. Though, sometimes it can be too late, like with Kylo here. But the point is, this romance doesn't just happen, it has purpose and meaning and both sides are deep characters, not just romantic devices to make the character feel better or whatever.
Tacked on romance and toxic romance seen as sweet are the worst
Someone professing their love to someone else in public and the people watching these two having their climatic kiss responds in clapping, whistling, cheering, screams and crying. *UUggghhh*
I LAUGHED OUT LOUD at the subtle Star Wars dig. “After somehow Palpatine returned”. I chuckled to myself for at least a minute
The central romance in Stardust is full of clichés and it still works for me. You can make clichés work.
Yeah but stardust is half fairy tale, half comedy. In that genre, you can get away with anything as long as it's well written
Stardust is littered with cliches by design, and it knows it. When something is as self aware and well written as Stardust you will forgive it.
I just said you CAN make clichés work. Stardust might be a good example as to how.
Stardust is based on the book by Neil Gaiman, and he intended it to be a fairytale for adults.
My mother, who watches Hallmark movies for a living, had the exact same reaction to the Rey/Ren kiss. Its that bad
"who watches Hallmark movies for a living" Hahaha!
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty A hell of a way to make a living!
I love the content in these videos but your delivery is the rocket fuel behind them. Word choices, tone, pacing. I smile through the whole thing and I learn from them. You're really good at this. 😊
The tropes I hate are: 1) girl pursues toxic relationship just because the guy is hot (and / or rich), without any character development toward recognizing the unhealthy situation and moving on. The stories that glorify abuse as okay as long as the partner is aesthetically pretty. 2) Love triangles. Either make a choice and commit, or walk away. If you can't decide, I'll have enough self respect to decide for you and walk away. Sometimes this ties into #1, with the girl who can't choose between the "hot, dangerous guy" and "the boy next door". There are more that irk me, but those two are dealbreakers.
The sad part is how true to life it rings. In at least a few reports, the top two things by far girls look for in a guy is being tall, and money. It might be skewed more towards the dating sphere, but still.
Public declaration of love - at the airport, in the airplane, at a wedding, a company event. Sometimes they are handled well (The Wedding Singer). I prefer a more grounded renconciliation. Home For the Holidays is just right. She is on the plane. He gets on and they talk. And the ending is not fairy tale.
The last example is for sure one of the worst. Thank you for another great video!
Thanks for watching!
This may not qualify as a hated cliché, but it’s a writing technique in romances I hate. The author has the man withhold something about his past from the woman leading to conflict. But the information is also withheld from the reader, which is frustrating, especially if it’s written in 1st person. It’s no secret to the man, we’re inside his head, so wouldn’t letting the reader know the secret while keeping it from the woman make me more invested in them? When I know what he’s not sharing and why, the suspense isn’t ME finding out, but watching how the woman is reacting to his odd behavior and how she’ll react when she finds out.
If it was at least in 3rd person, it would make somewhat of a sense, but you‘re right, this kills all the immersion.
Not just in romance, but in general, writing in first person and hiding things from the audience that person knows feels forced. It can be used well, but like with most things, it often isn't.
I've read stories where the main character had something planned in advance, but that plan was never shown until execution, which would be where the protagonist seems to be losing. However, those that work either have explicit mentions of a plan, or good foreshadowing so it's obvious there is a plan. Otherwise it feels like an asspull. While it's still something the reader should know, it's a way to increase tension and keep the readers guessing what the protag will pull out. But it's more a matter of _what_ than _if,_ so at least for me it works a little better.
Currently writing a sci-fi romance movie and I was very excited to see this upload. Do you happen to know any tips for writing good romance? I’ve got a good dynamic between the 2 currently but I’d love any tips.
I second this as a video idea for you, Brandon McNulty. :)
In the meantime, I'd recommend a video on youtube - channel is "English Nerd" and video is called "Tips for Writing Romance." It's an efficient checklist you can use.
Anime has a lot of those. Protagonist dragging on decision until the very end, where authors are too afraid to alienate fans of some girls too early, so nothing conclusive happens for as long as possible. The other one is the unnecessary potential romance interests. Happens in the same genre most often, we have a promising budding relationship, but then a new female character is added, and we get teased a romance between them, even though everyone knows it's not going to happen. Then another one, and another one. You had it just right already, stop adding more participants, it's just getting excess.
I agree with *ALL* of these!!! *ESPECIALLY* number 5!! 🎯
This will always be my favorite writing channel! Brilliant work as always. Great insight.
Thank you so much for this Brandon! I’m really struggling with a romantic story right now and I couldn’t quite put it into words as to why I was having so much trouble piecing my scenes together. These tips will definitely help me!
Thrilled to hear it helped. Best of luck with your story!
Oh, I have a list. All of yours are on it, but also:
-A male character kissing a female to get her to shut up. *Especially* if she's rightfully pissed about something. That's so rude and disrespectful.
-The "wear her down until she gives in" trope, and it's almost always a she. Actually, I'm going to expand this to any time a female character's agency is ignored/sacrificed to push her into a romantic plot.
-A beautiful, smart, funny, amazing woman ends up with a bland, mediocre man Because The Plot Says So.
-The double standard where a woman can look past a man's ugliness to love him, but you rarely see it in reverse.
-The "big romantic gesture" that's more often than not humiliating at best and the culmination of a character basically stalking/harassing the love interest at worst.
-That trope where the ex wife/girlfriend is about to remarry, and the loser protagonist manages to win her back at the last second. I either feel sorry for the guy left at the altar if he didn't do anything wrong, or roll my eyes if the story demonized him to make the plot work.
Either way, the woman looks like an idiot.
In the first case, she's often ditching a healthier relationship for her ex, where she knows she's taking a risk. In the second, she's not only about to marry this loser, but taking her ex back because even though the *audience* saw him change, she rarely does in-story.
Exception: Shrek. Probably the ONE movie where this worked, and it worked because Shrek and Fiona weren't longterm before the wedding and still sorting their feelings for each other out. Also the rare exception where the miscommunication trope worked in the story's favor, because yes, it made Shrek and Fiona split until it got sorted out, but it was also a rare instance that shows the reality of how your own self-loathing can unwittingly affect others.
-Abusive behavior portrayed as love. Some major ones: stalking, controlling behavior under the guise of "caring," public romantic gestures meant to pressure the love interest into saying yes, sabotaging the romantic competition, treating the love interest like a reward.
-Love triangles in-general, but I *especially* hate ones where one potential love interest is demonized to the point you're wondering what she (and it's almost always a she) sees in him, and it's clear she'll pick the "good" guy in the end. Like, why bother? It's still a shitty trope, but you also took out what little conflict this trope actually had.
-Chickening out of queer romance because the author clearly wants diversity points, but won't actually let the couple be together. At best, they'll get some moments, but the relationship is so vague, you wonder why they bothered.
Cororally to this: I'll forgive this teasing in older works that were published in times where queer romance was less accepted, but in the modern day? No. Either do it or don't.
yeah that's bad
All excellent points. Romance stories have this really awful habit of portraying abuse and possessiveness as love and not, you know, horrifying.
Also thank you for reminding me how utterly masterfully written Shrek was.
Although slightly f=different from your scenario, the very last scene of the "The Graduate" undermines the left-at-the-altar trope... those "Oh ****, what have we done?" looks on the faces of Benjamin and Elaine.
Some of your points on the list boils down to you wish men and women were the exact same sex and were treated as such. Sorry, but that’s asking for the whole history of mankind to be as impotently irate as you about reality. Never gonna happen.
You have every right to be upset about whatever irks you but writing it down here where we can see it gives us a very revealing window into many things you are grossly missing in life. 🍿
Well put!
As an aspiring romance novelist, this one resonated! There’s a fine line in that world between using tropes that elicit an eyeroll and using tropes to, er, elicit eyes rolling back 😅The ‘because the leads are hot and the plot says so, story be damned’ cliché grinds my gears - I saw this recently in a police thriller series, and it brought the whole series down because there was no chemistry, and there was no attraction conveyed in the script. Even the actors looked a bit like ‘are we gonna get this over and done with?’ They could have kept it and make the characters earn their romance, or even better, a friendship.
And misunderstandings work well in farce (Frasier did this SO well), but unless it’s a screwball romance it’s just a lazy device to keep engagement for 100 more episodes/chapters.
So in the case of Hitch I think the misunderstanding is more forgivable in context. 1. It's not accidental, it's intentionally malicious misinformation from an antagonist (Charles Munse). 2. She comes at him aggressively because she's assuming he's playing her. 3. He becomes understandably defensive because it looked unlikely that she would stop and listen in her aggressive state and both thought they had the full story. It's the most realistic breakup I've seen in a movie.
I also hate the tacked-on romance (along with the overidealistic type of romance a la Hallmark) and often prefer to have a man and a woman being close companions without any romance involved. I especially can't stand the type of romance where the man is a simp/"nice guy"", and therefore only does good things for a woman to get into her pants. A lot of people complain about Quasimodo not getting the girl in Disney's "Hunchback of Notre Dame", but the point was that Quasimodo is able to move on and save Esmeralda because it's the right thing to do
Hallmark's more about feel-good, so over-idealistic is preferred over over-dramatic. I kind of agree with that, but I prefer neither.
#5 is so true. Green arrow and black canary's relationship in justice league unlimited feels so forced. We knew green arrow had feelings for her in the beginning episode and the episode with her in it they just automatically get together without proper buildup. If they had been together in previous episodes or at least had that feeling of friendship they would actually work as a couple, but nope. They rushed their relationship, just like how they rushed the show.
"How did Trinity and Neo fall in love again?"
"By being the male and female protagonists"
I'd say that was a little of subverting that, as she was prophesied to fall in love with him.
For me it's a tie between "miscommunication" and the compulsory "grand gesture makeup scene" at the end... it's a double whammy
The miscommunication trope is the worst, and that goes for regular friendships too; it's just one of the worst tropes in general. Aside from the reasons given, it's also just childish and often melodramatic. Adults should talk to each other if there's a perceived misunderstanding, not immediately fly off the handle. When I see or read characters doing that, I start to tune out.
Wow, when you mentioned the cliche for number 10, the first example that popped into my mind was Jurassic World. Was surprised when that was the exact example you went with.
I’m listening to the video at work, so I didn’t even see the clips of the movie you used to tip me off.
Haha mind reader!
#2 basically describes the plays Othello and A Midsummer Night's Dream. Though for sure Shakespeare isn't for everyone, and many things became cliché specifically by adapting his works for the Nth time, which can get annoying, I guess.
I really don't like the analysis of this topic because it assumes everyone's rational. But love and sexuality isn't rational! Othello is irrationally jealous, Iago is whispering in his ear and stirring.
Yet that's real. People don't always open up and talk, they make assumptions, they get upset over silly things.
The one cliche that is used way too often (at the end of the movie) is when the loved one is about the leave the country by airplane. (Because of a stupid misunderstanding or whatever). And the main character has to rush to the airport to stop her (or him) before it's too late.
Loving your channel, I think the takeaway in this video is don’t write in rewards that are unearned 👍
The worst Romance cliche is the female lead being desired by the male lead despite her not having any distinguishing qualities or features. Best example is Twilight. The girl has no character or personality. And she's not even attractive, yet both male leads obsess over her for no reason.
That's exactly what happens. Old men latching onto young women who haven't even figured themselves out yet. Easy to control.
@@Halliwell0Rain that only makes sense if the girl is attractive, but in this movie she's not. It makes no sense!!! Another example is spider man. Mary J is not special AT ALL and for some reason Peter Parker is obsessed with her even after her becomes spider man and could get literally any woman.
@Halliwell0Rain
Okay but we're talking about stories here. That's fucking boring to read and it reeks of self-insert
@@sheila19954 you know it's true!!
As a person who doesn't really enjoy most romance plots, sub or otherwise, numbers 2-4 would actually get on my list of favorite romance cliches.
I think it's because they take focus away from internal emotions and either make it an external conflict, like with #4, or make it more about resolving a more concrete issue, like with #2. #3 is just good because it means the plotline is ending usually, and it feels less "toxic" than other depictions.
When Ne-Yo and Trinity started falling in love with each other that didn't make sense
Nice list. Some readers can become challenged in certain types of romances because they themselves just never experienced it in real life, first hand or otherwise. This can really swing for or against the cliche they're reading. Keep the videos coming 👍
Thanks!
I'm so glad you included Rey and Kylo Ren. That was one of the worst I have seen. There was not enough build up to it that it just felt so out of nowhere. I remember telling people after walking out of the theater how much I hated that moment.
Great list! I also hate the miscommunication trope. Drives me crazy because it feels so unrealistic.
I think I am glad that I skipped that film.
As someone who honest-to goodness likes Rey, I feel like their were so many better paths to take her character (while similarly promoting diversity)
-Pairing Rey with Finn
-Making Rey asexual
-ANYTHING OTHER THAN REYLO!
Watching cheers and realizing most tv shows do the "will they won't they" because when your running for an indeterminate amount of seasons that's the easiest way to keep the story going and if it need be resolved it can be done in the last 5min.
That's where I think The Big Bang Theory really worked. Spoiler Alert!
Leonard and Penny get together by about the third series, I think.
The writers keep things interesting by having other characters have love interests. Howard and Bernadette, Sheldon and Amy's relationship, while happening fairly quickly, slowly burns with the physical side of the relationship, but that fits Sheldon's character well. And of course, Raj and his entourage of love adventures and mishaps.
So, by introducing new characters and love interests it kept the show from getting old with cliches.
The Big Bang Theory and perhaps Friends, and let's not forget Seinfeld are sitcoms that didn't get old and drag out.
They should be compulsory study for writers of sitcoms.
@MyMusic-cd3do even though I'm not a big bang theory fan I can respect adding to the main cast later on. Like scrubs or how I met your mother or most shows, you meet the couple that's bound to get together in episode one. I understand in TV a second season isnt guaranteed, but I'd prefer new characters to join the fold later on especially if it's a long running series because thats more indictive of real life.
The miscommunication drama is top tier stupidity. So insulting to the audience. Arrogant fools that stupid are impossible for me to root for. I just put down the story. ... People can and do get stuck on miscommunication in real relationships, but that tends to happen over perspective, especially with feelings vs facts interpretations where the issues are difficult and long-entangled and the sides both become defensive. Miscommunication drama over the most shallow, easily-cleared-up matters, cause my eyes to hurt from rolling too hard.
Is it possible you'll make a video on ki-sho-ten-ketsu sometime? It's an alternative storytelling structure, like the western hero's journey.
I think it could really profit some of us to raise awareness to it!
I'll have to look this up. Thanks!
Is she worth it? To die for? Absolutely. That exchange from Robin Hood really sums up my worst annoyance if a heroine (or hero) isn't shown as earning or being worth the sacrifice of the hero (or vice versa) of course in a Samson and Delilah type story where the unhealthy relationship leads to The heroes downfall that's a different thread altogether
I haven’t read it in too many books, so it might not be an official trope yet, but the backed-into-a-corner sexual encounter makes me livid.
It’s that moment in a romance where the experienced guy manipulates a situation so that the virgin/ good/ not interested girl ends up in his bed, usually reluctantly or absolutely petrified to give in. But he’s so tender, so charming, so commanding, that she doesn’t fight back.
The marital assault scene in Gone With The Wind has traces of this trope.
The worst offender though has to be this book by a prominent romance author where the virgin lead is terrified of the dark because it takes her back to the memory of hiding from her mother’s murderers in a hidden compartment in the floor while the slain woman’s blood dripped down onto her. This poor traumatized girl goes catatonic in the dark. The male lead kidnaps her and discovers her weakness. One night, after she makes him angry because he can’t take seeing her every day and not having her, he tells her that if she comes to his room for any reason during the night, she will be forfeiting her body. He then makes sure the only room with a light source in the house that night is his. And knowing she’ll seek the light he just leaves his bedroom door open so the light pours from the room. As he knew she would, the girl has a panic attack of paralysis and barely manages to crawl across the hall to his open door. He is standing in the glowing room, just waiting with a smile. When she gets to the threshold of his bedroom door, she’s shaking, crying, and somehow still not there. He picks her up, carries her to his bed and waits for her to cling to him in desperation before he coaxes her into sex. The worst part is, in the morning she’s not even angry about his manipulation. She’s just like “eh, he did warn me.”
Any story where a girl is manipulated into giving a guy sex in exchange for something is an example of the backed-into-a-corner sexual encounter trope.
50 shades
#1 is my most hated and the one I probably notice the most. I think it's the reason why I never appreciated romance in stories until fairly recently in my life. #4 I hadn't thought of why it was a bad idea before, but I agree it is ultimately unsatisfying.
I absolutely despise the "I can fix him/her" dynamic. Especially when the one who "needs to be fixed" is overly pushy and makes the other person's relationship fall apart because their partner is not as bad-boyish or confident.
Although not exactly a trope, it's disturbing to me that, ever since Twilight, a lot of Teen/YA stories pretty much *ROMANTICIZES* toxic relationships.
It's _much_ older than that.
Something that really get to my nerves is when two characters, who met for about a couple of days, by the end of the movie are declaring eternal love for each other. I've noticed this happening the most in non romantic movies.
Ugh that last one was so painful and awkward and, as you said, unearned. When I saw Episode 7, I thought they were building a foundation for Finn and Rey to be endgame, and I was so onboard for that! And then all that was dropped in Episode 8. I haven't sat down to watch 7-9 through in one/close watchings, but even so I get the feeling that my takeaway will be that they are very disjointed stories that don't feel like parts of the same whole. It's kind of how I feel about the current phase of the MCU, expect those films do feel like they're somewhat trying to connect to each other, and most of them are not direct sequels of each other.
The stadium confession. You can't say 'Sorry, I love you' without the undivided attention of at least 10,000 strangers.
I like your commentary on these various films.
I do disagree with your criticism of You've Got Mail. Your suggestion, that the breakup with the rival should have been more difficult would have been more dramatic is right. But YGM is a near-perfect rom-com, IMHO. The writers took a lot of risks with the plot, and made unexpected and often quirky decisions. The mutual breakup in YGM fits perfectly with the ethos of the story, which is full of ironic departures from established romance tropes. I thought it was a good choice at the time, and I still do.
But everyone has their own opinion about these things.
Also, you were spot-on about Hitch. Misunderstandings are always a weak plot-point in Romance, though they can sometimes work, as in the case of An Affair to Remember.
The soulmate trope is what gets me. And not the idea that you can BECOME soulmates with someone. But the pre-determined idea of soulmates, not having a choice in who you love. It seems so toxic and maybe it's because I like having control of my own life, but it gives me the ick everytime.
#2 is one the things I hate in stories the most, and that goes beyong just romance and relationships, using miscommunication as the crux for an entire story is VERY common, I've seen this a lot not just in movies, but also series and even video games.
When all the problems in the story could have been prevented by ppl simply acting like adults and talking to clear up the miscommunications and wrong assumptions, well that's the momento I tap out, I simply can't get immersed when I see this stupid and lazy cliche.
Romantic storylines are one of my personal ways to explore characters and the dynamics between them (not just the characters who are getting romantically involved, but also the characters in their immediate orbit). However, it's one of those things that definitely needs effort to make work effectively, and even moreso to make it engaging and thematic.
Personally, I believe romances are easiest to write when you view them as the "reward" for the characters involved; having it be directly tied to their respective character growth and only pulling the trigger at the end of a respective arc, once both are fully developed. Or for characters who are already in established relationships, use whatever challenges confront them (be they internal or external) as a vessel to make it stronger at the end, even if it means temporarily pulling the two apart (or even permanently, in order to transition the relationship in a new direction other than romantic, if that is what works best for your story).
Of course, this doesn't work for all stories or writers, but it's what works for me.
I think this video is spot on, as usual. I don’t even think they are cliche they are just bad. But I also think all five work well for comedic effect. Also, in the case of Star Wars, Kilo and ray could have been used to bolster the characters. Either ray rejecting him or kilo killing her. It would have been legendary either way
The cliche i hate the most is the forced toxic relationship. Movies like 50 shade, after, the kissing booth and 365 days have EXTREME TOXIC MALE and they make you believe they are the good one for the girl that sacrifice everything just to be with him.
When one lover takes the other to somewhere closed. A museum, stadium, train station, whatever. An example thats easy to find on television would be Ross and Rachel first time on Friends.
None of the Rom Coms I saw in the last 20 years do it for me and you did a great job explaining why. I'm a screenwriter. The Sidekick one is the one that bothers me the most. Your friends don't do that for you in real life, they don't care. And you're totally right, it diminishes the reunion. It's like there's no conviction of them wanting each other. It was just the doing of the friends. The only good ones were Say Anything, Pretty Woman, and She's All That. In those ones, it wasn't their friends, it was them. Their friends just sat back and admired them, which is what happens in real life too. My Rom Com does that.
I hate the love polygon, where the romance interest is somehow subverted by other relationships only to get together in the end for any of the reasons listed in the video. And we all knew it was going to happen from the beginning.
Probably higher on my romance cliche hate list is the big speech/confession at a huge event in front of an audience of people who patiently stand around and let them say what they have to say. No one cuts the sound, drags them off stage, heckles them, etc. etc.
I know they''re going for the big climax scene, but I think it is just lazy writing that makes me cringe every time it happens.
What I hate most about miscommunication the way it usually plays out in media that the takeaway to me seems to always be "one or both of these people isn't mature enough to talk about an issue directly, let alone tackle a problem together, thus proving they're not fit to be in this relationship" but then the story pretends they're meant to be TM and at this point I can't buy it. If you're jerks and can't hold a conversation why would I root for you?