the messy rise and fall of Victoria's Secret
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- Опубліковано 24 тра 2024
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Edited by Israh S.
SOURCES
Decoding Victoria's Secret: The Marketing of [redacted] Beauty and Ambivalence: www.jstor.org/stable/23415007
A [redacted] Femininity? Telling and Selling Victoria's (Dirty) Secrets: www.jstor.org/stable/466785
Chapter 11: The Secret of My Desire: Gender, Class, and [redacted] in Lingerie Catalogs: www.jstor.org/stable/42975211
Unattainable Standards of Beauty: Temporal Trends of Victoria’s Secret Models from 1995 to 2018:
thecrimsonwhite.com/82028/cul...
www.theatlantic.com/ideas/arc...
www.nytimes.com/2021/06/21/st...
www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/bu...
www.nytimes.com/2019/02/21/fa...
www.businessinsider.com/victo...
www.businessinsider.com/victo...
www.businessinsider.com/victo...
www.washingtonpost.com/news/a...
slate.com/business/2021/06/vi...
bobcutmag.com/2022/04/19/is-v...
BRANDS
AmaElla
Anekdot
Araks
Aurore Lingerie
Between The Sheets
Botannica Workshop
ColieCo
Cosabella
Eco Intimates
Fruity Booty
Maylyn & Co.
Savara Intimates
Underprotection
Uye Surana
0:00 - introduction
1:42 - the rise of VS
15:41 - the scandals
26:41 - the fall of VS - Фільми й анімація
I've also noticed that whenever clothing company's (not necessarily all) are being promoted as diverse wherever its skin colour or size, they make the models wear neutral colours instead of bold colours that could complement their tone. It could be nothing and I could be reaching but it feels odd to me how these brands won't let bigger women wear brighter clothing.
You're spot on. Larger bras are function only. They lift and separate only and sometimes I'd love a pushup bra in my size to fill in a neckline nicely instead of making a gaping hole straight down to my stomach.
Not to mention that the larger women end up being midsize (around size 10-16) and stops there .
totally agree! It's not just underwear and lingerie, but it's very much like everything outside the still existing "ideal" body should please fade into the background as one muted blobs of shades of pinks and browns and be happy to be allowed even just that. I would like to see more group shots of diverse models that wear rainbow-coloured clothing and/or bold patterns.
I think the only brand i’ve seen that produces colourful underwear for everybody is parade!! their marketing is like the anti VS lol. idk how good their plus size quality is tho
Yes! I think the most sickening thing about the "oh plus size women can shop at Lane Bryant" is that their shit is ugly! It's boring! Fat women also look awesome in fun colors and textures. Not about lingerie, but when I had an office job where I needed to shop for office appropriate clothes, I kinda had a meltdown when I realized I could no longer fit into anything at H&M (wouldn't shop there anyway knowing what I know now) so I went to Lane Bryant. They just had the ugliest clothes to me that made me feel sad and depressed, but I bought them anyway because I was panicking that nothing else would fit me, and they were so expensive too. I cried on the way home.
And the VS rebrand was not giving AT ALL. It’s almost as if women who aren’t the standard don’t get to be sexy!! We were expecting the wings and the glitz and glam, but it was so BORING. It literally shows that they don’t give a damn about inclusivity, they just did it so they can try stay relevant…
exactlyyy. it just perpetuates the idea that in order to be sexy you have to be thin/white/het. which is honestly more sexist if anything.
yeah like ppl enjoyed the wings and the campness they just wanted different kinds of angels. felt rlly telling that when they felt they had to be inclusive they dropped it
Exactly! They decided “you are fat? LGBT? Disabled? POC? fine. We will include you, but no wings. No pink. No glitter. No showcase and concert with gaudy costumes, which arguably could be male gazey or for once combat it. No fun. Just nude underwear. There you go”.
I mean I'm okay with neutral colors and everything but I think it would be badass if they pioneered inclusivity with underwears and still use the neutral colors as the main theme, people would have in awe and their sales would be so $$$$$. And considering they're a big brand, it would be a big thing. I personally think they've missed their chance to be the pioneer of inclusivity. But since it was already late, and newer brands already pioneered inclusivity and the use of neutral colors, it was as if VS just used what's "in there" and what was the current trend (which was again neutral colors) just to stay relevant. Sad.
Exactly! I thought I was the only one It was so boring Where’s all the glitz and glam and pink? It looks like a knockoff version of skims Won’t be purchasing SavagexFenty has a lot of bright colors and cool things but I’ve heard bad things about that company too…
I actually respect Adriana Lima for being honest about her horrible diet regimen. At least she did not blatantly lie e.g. saying it was all clean eating, salad, lots of plain water, and enough rest.
oh shit like a cry for help kind of thing. She's not advocating for it, she's telling us so we can get mad and fight it.
@@mmm.mmm.mmm.idk she didn't look mad while saying it
Yeah that’s a good point. It was common at that time to hear thin celebrities say they “ate whatever” they wanted or that they like just had a burger before such and such event.
The brand's marketing is so male gazey that the stores almost felt more like a place for men than a place for women, in a way. The few times I walked in there the pictures on the walls felt like they were there to give the husbands and boyfriend's something to ogle while the wives and girlfriends shop idk.
@@itsthefarrahmonsterthat’s definitely the way it used to be marketed. Now, when I go in there, it feels like it’s marketed towards teenage girls. Either way, it’s pretty gross.
I’m just so stuck on Rupert Everett kissing Heidi Klum’s legs… he’s gay, which means that the kissing her legs thing was likely a performance for straight men fantasizing about kissing Heidi Klum’s body and for some reason I find that fascinating (still creepy)
Goes to show that even a gay man saw these women as sexual objects. I’m often baffled at how mysogny has nothing to do with a persons gender or sexual orientation. It’s awful.
i literally gagged when he kissed her leg and had to skip ahead. so gross
@@PunkHime89 i know its so ingrained in all of us, women have been some of the worst misogynists I've met. thankfully I can recognise it now
@@clairedear8320 Yeah, women would be harsher critics than men because they care more. The whole "please your man" responsibility/mentality would lie on the women more and not the man. They're the one's who'd put more effort into it, and criticize others who don't do "enough"- and it's because men set those standards for them in the first place. Standards that are hard to maintain and follow.
At least that's what I think.
There's also the other side, that leans more towards masculinity and the whole "not like other girls" mentality, who criticize women for doing anything feminine or "stereotypical".
People are really disgusting. For me it took a lot of unlearning when it comes to how we see people deemed as conventionally attractive, especially women. I swear folk just turn into base creatures around people who they think are pretty, and I think sexual repression has something to do with that. This definitely includes how some people who are not attracted to women, still objectify women.
I've hated VS ever since they started doing the angels fashion show. It was all about the male gaze and not about what women wanted. So yucky!
Yes. Exactly. It was ALWAYS about the male gaze.
a child under 10 tell me i was his baby sitter real woman are only the angels ! of course his father told him that i was so shoked he was 8ish ...
As if women don’t pander to the gaze, build their beauty around it.
@@ferrisbueller9991 idk if ur agreeing or disagreeing but yes women pander to the gaze but that doesn’t mean they should ban trans women and plus size women from modeling bc it isnt “attractive” to them,etc.when they make their models obsess pver their bodies,the company was found to make men comfortable shopping for lingerie for womwn then they trued makinh the lingerie what the men shopping would think is s3xy
@@ferrisbueller9991 also the owner is friends with jef epstein which tells u enough already
I think by the time Victoria's Secret tried to change their marketing to be a more 'inclusive' brand, it was too late. The 90s kids who watched VS fashion shows every year outgrew the brand. And younger girls are growing up in a culture that's hyperconscious about body image + inclusivity. Especially with the diversity of social media & the rise of alternative brands, VS's curated, mannequin-glossy image has fallen out of style. Beauty that feels superfluous and hollow.
There are also companies that make better bras...
as a young girl of gen-z, i COMPLETELY disagree. it hasn’t fallen out of style. have you seen the video mina made about the new “femcels”? yeah, the number’s bigger than it seems. the skinny beauty standard has not left at all. look at today’s famous models. the aesthetics. not trying to be negative, but it hasn’t left *at all*.
@@lm-zy1xt agree im so tired of people acting like being skinny isnt "trendy" anymore... it always has been and always will be.
Never is too late to change 👍🏻
I agree that Victoria’s Secret’s change was too late, but for a different reason. I think the people who wanted more inclusivity had already been seeking that out by the time VS changed to be more inclusive. At least in my local mall, Aerie was a couple stores down and that’s where I liked to shop. Victoria’s Secret was intimidating (and expensive) and it’s where the pretty rich girls shopped. Later when I learned more about inclusivity and VS’s lack thereof, I steered even more clear of VS because inclusivity was something I personally valued. I don’t think inclusivity is something everyone values, but those who do have certainly already found other retailers who fit with those values. VS was just late to the game and isn’t getting those customers back. Plus, they truly aren’t inclusive still. Like Mina said, they don’t have a plus size range and their bra sizing range is pretty abysmal.
I think the culture has shifted a bit to be more inclusive generally, but young girls are still growing up watching Instagram models and aspiring to be “pretty and skinny like them”. If you look at who is popular with Gen z, it’s still skinny women with lighter skin in the majority. I’m an elder Gen z and I can see now how toxic that culture was and I try to stay away from it, but it is still very alive and well for the majority of those young girls.
I never knew Pink was targeted towards teens. I thought it was just the more athletic/casual side of the store. It also was the most affordable side as well.
I didn’t either!
Lol that is common knowledge!
@@di3486 and some people aren’t aware of it. it’s almost like….different people possess different knowledge? blasphemy!!! how ridiculous!!
I helped open some of the stores in my state. It was a BIG deal with teens. Our meetings were interesting.
i also didnt know this but 🫣 i also wasnt allowed to shop there until i had my own money and space so like 18-19 lol
i remember being like 13 and feeling too shameful and scandalized to even walk into a Victoria’s Secret shop like… why was that why did I feel that way
you're gay 👀
Dude I felt the exact same way!!
It is wild how many young girls felt like that. I went to one when I was an adult and had a realization how ridiculous that feeling was.
I feel this especially as I have always had a larger chest and whenever I had to buy a bra as a early teenager I would always need to get the more adult appropriate bras. (If that’s a way to say it)
Hah I still buy my underwear only online, because if I am in one of these underwear sections in shops I fell shameful, like doing sth wrong you know drinking alkohol/smoking in high school and hiding it so my mum won't know about it 😅
Your channel is a solid 10/10. The work that goes in to the research, the cutting and the esthetics is amazing. Love you Mina
And her themes/subjects are always on point!
truly!! she is so so on it!
Absolutely agree. Love her
Mina is satisfying a strong demand for high brow content about fashion.
My theory is that old print medias used to reserve intelligent analysis for politics, business, sport... Meanwhile, topics associated with female readership (fashion, home interior) were often editorially "dumbed down".
I love to see such an ACADEMIC, straight-forward yet un-patronising perspective on a very important art form... for me, the everyperson ♥️
EXACTLY! i love her videos. im not watching or following any youtubers but since i discovered her channel, im obsessed
I sometimes see men on podcasts being angry about "plussize models" and I always ask myself why they are so concerned about the body that advertise clothing that isn't meant for them?! Even complaining about "why are there no plussize male models" like that's somehow womens fault...
the funny thing is there ARE male plus size models but they're not saying a word about that
They're just sad that they don't get 'entertained' anymore by skinny, sexy white models. It's not about them caring about skinny v fat, it's about appealing to the male gaze.
I would also say that, crucially, they don’t want plus sized women who aren’t models to feel good about themselves. These men don’t find them sexually attractive and feel as if all women should cater to their desires, so they deride their very existence. Any woman who doesn’t fit the fantasy (which is usually a skinny and hairless white woman who conforms to feminity and beauty standards) they treat like a personal affront. Like straight men who try to insert themselves into queer wlw relationships or act disgustingly homophobic to butch women - they feel entitled to women’s bodies and the fantasies they make of them.
So true.
I love when they then use “health” as a crutch to criticise bigger women. “It’s not healthy to look like that. What are they promoting? Obesity is a problem in society?
But they never bring up health with thin models. They don’t care if a thin model lives on green juice and amphetamines, as long as they cater to his sexual desires.
Doesn’t matter if she has a BMI of 19, guess what fellas… it’s not healthy to look like that! What is she promoting? Disordered eating is a problem in our society!
@@ginao6810 Not to mention that it isn’t a brands job to only promote the upmost ”healthy” bodytypes. Brands need to make clothes that people can wear, clothes that fit people who exist. It doesn’t matter if your bodytype is ”healthy” or not, you still deserve clothes that fit you.
When it was revealed that Victoria's secret was originally made with MEN'S comfort in mind, everything really clicked. I never ever felt comfortable shopping in Victoria's secret (including pink) whereas places like aerie felt a lot more welcoming... And also just sold more stuff that I would actually wear. I don't wear bras anymore but still wouldn't go to VS for them if I did, even after their "rebrand"
For some reason, the whole idea of a guy (even my boyfriend/husband) buying me "sexy" lingerie creeps me the f*ck out. Please, please, PLEASE just buy me some chocolate. Even flowers would be better.
@@christiesanchez4013 i wouldn't mind if he were buying in my taste, like i know you like this colour in this texture, so i got you this, then if i were comfortable would be another thing he'd factor in
I had no idea it had men's pleasure in mind cause I and many other women loved how cute the undergarments were. They were so much more comfortable then normal underwear
that guy kissing her leg and being creepy was possibly the most disturbing thing I've ever seen. I can't imagine how she must have felt
It was gross 😖
I'm so happy you higlighted the issues with savage x fenty as everyone seems to think that anything rihanna touches is sent from heaven
Fr... The hype rihanna gets from her fans blinds people
Girl, this issue has been brought several times. The solution is READ
Yeah. It's Rihanna as a brand ambassador for Fabletics as far as I'm concerned.
Lizzo’s new line is the same
Like everyone can shop where they want to shop but it’s not better just because they’re celebrities
@@jennawar13 that's because she's also just putting her name on fabletics crap
On the topic of problematic clothing companies targeted to girls, you should totally cover Brandy Melville. The racism and accusations of rape on the owners is just insane, and the prices and exclusivity is sooo problematic I can’t believe they’ve been thriving for so long
yes yes yes! i would love to hear more about this
!!!!
I would love to see Mina talk about why Limited Too turned into Justice in the early 2000s... basically how it basically was VS but targeted at the under twelve age group... oof-
Brandy Melilville was IT for me when I was 12-15...this is so hard to hear...
iilluminaughtii made a video about brandy melville and I was listening to it recently and it was bringing to mind memories of me, at age 14, receiving an order of brandy melville stuff that I’d been anxiously awaiting in the hopes that it would fit. Some of the stuff I bought _did_ indeed fit me and I was ecstatic. Looking back on that, I can’t believe it’s acceptable for ANY clothing company to operate the way they do, “one size fits most” is such complete bullshit. I was 14, weighed maybe 100lbs and had not finished going through puberty yet. I didn’t even really have boobs at that point. And even then I had to return a dress and a skirt that I’d bought because they were too small. Absolutely fucking insane
I'll always remember how VS measured me as a teen and told me my bra size was 36C. I struggled to find bras that actually fit me for years. I basically only wore sports bras, or squeezed myself into a 34 C that never gave proper support and had me a sneeze away from a massive wardrobe malfunction if I had no other option, until my grandma took me to a small shop, that actually measured me as a 32D. When I told the lady what VS had said, she just shook her said and told me "They don't carry a 32D, so they lied because they could only sell you the wrong size. They do it all the time."
I never went back to VS after that, even once they did start selling my size.
I just posted about this! I would a 32G back in the day and they would try to fit me in 36s and 38s. It made zero sense. They just did it to see to us! Going up or down a sister size can work on occasion but going up/down several is just not good overall.
I bought 32D bras from VS for years… not sure what stores you were visiting but they definitely made that size, and still do.
I was an AA when they measured me but they didn't carry bras that small at that time. They tried to upsell me a B.
I’m from Uruguay and until VS opened a franchise here (around a year ago) we didn’t had separate measures for cup and contour. If you had a 90cm bust, the importers assumed that measurement contemplated the contour also, so the cup was standardized. It was horrible. I’m 31 and for the first time ever I could get myself a bra that actually fits my boobs without being all lose everywhere else. We live in the dark ages here.
@Ppossum Not sure when you went & they told you this, but the specific reason I started shopping at VS was because I'm a 32D to 32DD and I couldn't find any bras under 34 from Macy's to Target. In fact, I was horrified to find I was a 32D when VS measured me. I'd been doing the 34C thing for so long but it's bad for your shoulders & back if the band doesn't fit correctly & pulls more on your shoulders. Maybe the person that fitted you didn't know what they were doing or maybe when you went they really didn't make that size. Can't imagine how long ago that could've been, but they definitely do now & have for the last 10 yrs. Occasionally, in some of the VS lines they even have 30D's. I know the women that work there both in person & online have to take classes to learn this stuff (like how to measure you properly) but I don't know when that started.
That perverted man scene is ingrained in my mind. It's horrendous what models and women in general endure.
Women should run the female fashion industry. We should all support women owned brands.
man, same. that was rape and I won't hear any argument. Heidi literally got sexually assaulted on live TV and he just got away with it. I feel. fucking. sick. I honestly gagged at the thought of that happening to me, it made me so enraged.
@@mmm.mmm.mmm. It’s nauseating. It’s not surprising though. Not to be overly political, but just look at SCOTUS. Men get away with worse than that every day and they still think they have it worse.
@ Emily, sounds great, lets start gender apartheid, total polarisation. Iam sure society will turn out much happier. Gender politics must be the norm. Let's demonise little boys and men or encourage them to become "trans women". 🤤
That was bizarre, literally broadcasted SA. Rupert Everett is gay, which makes sense since he acted like he had never seen a woman before. I wonder if he was overcompensating. Anyways, I wish I could forget
I'm from Montreal and I remember like a decade ago, they shut down the biggest bookstore in our downtown area (Chapters) and turned it into the "largest VS store in North America". Let me tell you, locals were furious
as they should. that's a crime.
I’d be pissed too
😂😂😂😂😂😂
It reminded me! In Warsaw, PL, in one of the city's most popular malls a few years ago they downsized a pretty popular chain bookstore(also had movies, music, toys etc) for a VS Store next door. Also, it was right next to one of the entries of the mall. So before you'd see the bookstore, you would see VS..
I'd be furious too.
One of my complaints as a plus size woman is that for some reason all these Skinny People Only™️ companies that go the diversity route think that diversity = beige. We want the same glitz and glamour and opulence, we just want it to be available for our bodies too.
FAHKIIING PREAAAACH YA LEGEEEENNND!
I HATE beige. I’ve always had larger breasts and finding cute, functional bras was impossible for the longest time. Now they make them but we have to order them online. I’m a 15 and the average US woman is an 18 last I checked. So by my math instead of my size being impossible to find there should be lots of even bigger sizes.
Im not overweight but has bug breast and there were no good looking options. So it’s not only if your big, but if you are small with big beast there is nothing out there. Today there are more options but they still are massive expensive. I had a breast reduction btw, now have a 65/70 B/C instead of a 65/70 F.
The owner doesn't want to see "diverse" girls in their specific sexual fantasy gear. Your mistake is thinking that the point of VS was ever to sell undergarments to women. The point of VS was to get his "angels" (girls aged 16-22 of his preferred weight, height, measurements and skin tone) in the lingerie he wanted to see them in!
You aren't one of his sweet teen angels. He doesn't want to sexually assault you on a vacation island. So what would be the point of dressing you up for it?
It's so sad that the best clothes are never designed for us. It almost feels like we don't deserve it :/
the thing that frustrates me the most besides this obvious performative shift is the fact they got rid of the angels, like once they added plus sizes they removed that aspect, as if plus size bodies can’t be angels.
LOL They CANT in his eyes. The point is definitely to make softcore porn for him, he literally says it multiple times, in public, in interviews, etc. No shame. "The shows are a (my) fantasy." He has no desire to make lingerie for women (I should say girls) he doesn't want to see in that lingerie. That's it. That's all.
His "angel" is a girl aged 15-22 who's a particular weight, size, and skintone. This entire billion-dollar culture-forming enterprise is to get his sweet 17 year old angel in the lingerie he wants to see her in.
It's hard to swallow that that pedophile passion-project got so big and was still JUST that- a pedophile passion project, but it is. I'm sorry. But he bought a lingerie store for 4 million and made it into that fantasy, and that's our culture.
Old Gen Xer here - while I'm here for Victoria Secret being evil, I think Gen Z needs to also see the thru line to the Kardashians, Kim K's SKIN line, Rianna's Savage Fenty lingerie brand and Lizzo's shape wear brand, etc - Gen Z seems to love and admire constricting shape wear, painful Brazilian waxes, and expensive plastic surgery even at young ages. Seems like the same old misogyny to me.
Gen Z here and I have to AGREE like. Now thay Y2K is back again I see people getting skinnier in very unhealthy ways as well. When will this end??
Gen Z and I completely agree, I think the way to go is body neutrality, my body is a body that what it is!
It is the same old misogyny and you all are eating it up! Gen X here.
and call it "empowerment"
I've seen so many folks younger than me who are obsessed with botox and fillers when they have nothing that needs adressing? They don't need botox yet, and absolutely don't need a lot of fillers. And now they look much older than they should, which is a sad irony.
hot take but i hateee when big brands define themselves as "inclusive" and when they show "plus sized" models it's just a slightly curvy woman with a small waist and small belly with 0 stretch marks like.... they claim inclusivity yet they're afraid of showing real fat people with stomach rolls and broad shoulders and stretch marks 🤨
agree
Fax
!!! exactly. a lot of these 'inclusive' brands claim to celebrate *all* body types, but still only represent bodies that adhere to the beauty standard, even with their 'plus-size' models who still have small waists, perfect proportions and airbrushed skin
Girl, I just want to see some cellulite
girl this isn't a hot take this is like, a widely accepted one
im so happy that you bought up the unethical sweatshops used by fenty. a lot of ppl ignore that cuz it’s rihanna and not only is it so hypocritical as u pointed out to be using sweatshop labor while pandering to feminism, i also think women in countries like bangladesh shouldn’t have to get paid so little that they can’t afford milk for their babies and work in horrible work conditions just cuz someone in america wants a cute lingerie.
100%, how can anyone be ok with these workers being exploited for their expensive, badly fitting bras???
@@jifij89 it’s simple ppl just don’t care about poor ppl especially ones that are poc
And yet every time I see a new startup offering ethically sourced and manufactured clothes, half the comments are like "that's too expeeeensive 😭😭😭😭😭😭" You can't win 🤷
@@JP-ve7or it’s a bunch of self righteous people
All of them brands are working these Bangladesh women for penny and i know you most likely buy from all of these brands. And also, the vip membership it's just about deleting the subscription before paying. That's why. Nobody is paying no mind to y'all's complaints because it's dumb.
This was a fascinating, really well researched video. The rot runs deep huh? My sister was a lingerie model... so I saw the industry treat her like trash first-hand. Anyone who calls body types 'fantasies' doesn't think models who have to live that 'fantasy' are real people. She got implants for her career when busts were in, then had them taken out when busts went "trashy". (When they were removed, it turned out they'd been the hazardous ones.) She dieted until she passed out, then when the strong-empowered-he-for-she! body came into fashion, she exercised until she passed out.
She also spent a lot of her teen and adult life involved with older rich men to help her career. Or for financial support, which is common because modelling pays horribly. At least here, the whole industry is at the mercy of old gross men-- if models tried to unionise they'd never get another job. Models _badly_ need unions though.
Sorry to say this story didn't end happily for my sister. I'm still trying to cope with losing her. It feels like my fun, glamorous sister was sucked in by this machine that sells dreams to teenage girls, chews every drop of capital it can make out of them, then spits them out when their souls and bodies are exhausted by these impossible demands.
I love fashion but the industry is so scummy. I don't think it's a coincidence that a "women's sector", which isn't taken seriously as real work, is so open to workplace exploitation.
Im so sorry you lost your sister. That must hurt like crazy especially seeing through the industry BS.
I'm sorry for your loss💔 thanks for sharing
So sorry for your loss 💙💙💙
I’m so sorry my jaw dropped when you said she died that is so upsetting
Thank you for sharing. It’s made me realize that what we’re now learning about these gross industries are from people who made it out/we’re a witness and we’re missing a lot of people who may never get to share their own story. I’m sorry for your loss💔
Apart from the misogyny and body dysmorphia issues, I remember their bras and underwear being extremely uncomfortable. Solely meant for the male gaze and not for utility. I didn’t know any better. I thought it was normal, until I tried new brands
literally never had a bra of theirs that fit me well, and i'm of average size
I thought what the (stereotypical) male ultimately wants to gaze at is . . . nothing at all! Aka a nude woman.
@@alisonjane7068 VS sells only the smallest cup sizes, and the small (but not the smallest) band sizes. Their range is tiny. So if you're average sized, your cup size should be somewhere in the E-G range, which VS does not sell.
I mean, he SAID it's for men.
@@AnnekeOosterinkE-G isnt average, i though B-D/DD was average.
WHAY THE FUCK?? PINK WAS CREATED AND MARKETED TOWARDS TEENAGERS??? In a company ran mostly by men, that is CREEPY.
Yep. I figured it was the entry to get them early and hook them to later buy VS
Teenagers? I sometimes go in there and I would never think it was solely for teenagers like....😐😐😐😐
there are SEVERAL brands for teens that are ran by men... it doesnt mean all those dudes are creeps lol if you look it up all the brands for teens and younger kids are basically all run by men, it doesnt mean anything
@@KippeA Nah. Bullshit. We see the signs. Nice try apologist.
I feel like it's always been clear it was for teenagers because it has a lot of college apparel type stuff.
I am from Germany and I just can remind how everybody was crazy about the Victoria’s Secret body sprays which were available in one German drugstore chain …. And everybody who were on vacation in the US or another come free with Victoria’s Secret stores was like look at my beautiful Victoria’s Secret shopping bag and bring it every time to university to carry some books in there😹It was really a thing back then
Oh my god yes I remember that! I was still in school back then but we were obsesseed! Your comment just gave me major flashbacks😂
@@Hello-guys420 and I have to confess that I was kind of addicted to them too 🫣 my ex-boyfriend was totally into the smell of them so I had several body sprays
Really off topic , but it’s so cute how you said “made vacation“ for “Urlaub machen“ ! 🥹 As a multilingual person myself I always find it so wholesome when people translate phrases directly. Especially with jokes!
Also their shoes in 2015-2016 ! I always found them super ugly but my classmates were crazy about them
it was like that here in sweden too!
I remember as a teen/young 20s I ONLY wore VS cause it made me feel grown and sexy. Now Ive done a 180 and rarely wear underwear with lace etc and much more comfortable bralettes. The hyper sexualisation and ultra ultra skinniness of VS bothers me and Im not sad to see them struggle. It felt like soft porn for guys. Lingerie and bras can be beautiful but more geared towards actually making normal women empowered.
Thats also really sick how so many women were assaulted in relation to the biz.
interesting. I agree about the lack of diversity that has always bothered me, but in terms of the product I sort of loved the glamour of the brand and some of the lingerie. to me it never felt like it was for men. I remember it made me feel excited about being a woman. when I'd buy those things it made me feel like I deserved to feel glamorous and like I was treating myself.
@@au7115 I think it depends a lot on multiple factors. For me there was this idea that teenager boys and young adult men thought all women were always wearing sexy lingerie. And if you didn't, you'd be the odd one out. So if this came up, they'd mock the girl or woman for being 'dirty' because it was regular used clothing.
The point is definitely to make softcore porn for him, he literally says it multiple times. "This store is for men" "The shows are a (my) fantasy." He has no desire to make lingerie for women he doesn't want to see in that lingerie. That's it. That's all.
The lingerie industry has always felt like a trick to me.
Because underwear is so personal, most people don't divulge their drawer inventory, which leaves room for companies to convince you that it's completely normal to have expensive bras in every bright colour, garter sets, bustiers, and impractical itchy lace. Textures that aren't made for daily use.
Buy what you find comfortable and useful. Save your money, and spend it on beautiful clothes that are made to be seen. That's my advice.
THIS
Exactly, I used to have a colorfull Beautiful drawer on underwear, until I realized I was basically only wearing the same type of black underwear every single day xD
Most of the time we’re just trying to figure out what bra won’t be visible under our clothes!
The Victoria's Secret lingerie always looked SO uncomfortable. Even if it's just for "seducing your man," WHY would you wear anything uncomfortable to do so? Couldn't you just not wear anything? Or wear a shirt with nothing underneath? Or did I miss some sacred secret of womanhood?
Lace is a crime against humanity. It should be considered a sin against the Geneva conventions. Lace is by FAR the worst human invention known to man.
And we put pineapple on pizza.
I wish I could find panties that were made to be worn by actual living women... You know, women who have vaginal discharge, and sweat, and other things that Living Bodies have in the genital area. But also is not cotton "granny panties," nothing against granny panties but damn am I not allowed to get something that feels s3xy and is also functional? Half the time, the second layer of fabric (for the vaginal business) is too far back to actually.. you know... "catch" any vaginal discharge. It is so enraging.
I know talking about sweat and vaginal discharge is like.. "gross" and tmi, but. It's underwear, it's SUPPOSED to be made to deal with this. Sorry not sorry that women's bodies have Functions and our clothes (especially the ones made to be worn on that area) should be designed to withstand "gross bodily functions"
Like you just know the vast majority of panties are made by men who only have this p0rnified fantasy in their mind of what a woman is, because they are always so BAD. The slightest bit of moisture will just soak right on through.
You know your company is trash when walmart granny panties unironically function better than yours lmao
We need to bring back “crusty” as an insult. Top tier.
Isn’t it ageist af tho?
@@edienandy not really tho. It just refers to someone sleazy who doesn’t take care of there appearance mostly
@@xXAcidBathXx huh. I’ve only ever personally heard/seen it used against people over 40. It’s so interesting how slang use varies
Mike's Mic is bringing it back!
@@edienandy in all fairness a lot of older people tend to have outdated mindsets. Especially around women and race. So they get the ‘crusty’ insult
Restricting drinking water in diet is still a big thing in Hollywood. Every actor who plays a super hero is advised not to drink water before take so they can look very ripped on camera when they’re shirtless. Henry Cavill actually shared this fact that they told him
NOT to drink any water a whole day before shooting a shirtless scene in The Witcher
Yep, those popping veins are from dehydration.
yeah also big in sport too
It’s an old bodybuilder trick. It’s common to do it before competitions.
So how did they survive? Like, his throat must be uncomfortable.
@@alebaobao over time your body can get used to anything to a certain degree. Physical pain, dehydration, starvation. Many people enjoy the feeling of sleep deprivation
my favourite time is literally now because iconic ex-angels like Elsa Hook, Romee Strijd, Candice Swanepoel and Taylor Hill are openly going against everything victoria's secret was and they're living their best life. I remember I was watching an interview by Elsa Hosk where she straight out said she was using drugs during that time to cope with everything and that it's one of the worst period of her life.
Also, side note, it felt so uncomfortable looking at that man kissing legs I had to pause the video and still felt grossed out ewww
not "literally"
I can't even look at that I had to scroll my page down to skip through it, being gay should not compensate misogyny or even racism.
I definitely remember when i was in high school in 2003-2007 and some girls would carry things in Victoria Secret bags and they wore thongs you could see pop out of their low rise jeans. I always thought it was creepy for a 14 year old to dress like that. And someone even made fun of me for not wearing sexy underwear. I'm like "I am a child"
I do think vs bags are cute and as a 14year old there are still girls thats buy and show off there vs thongs and underwear i dont see anything wrong with a bra strap showing however i feel like the whole thong strap thing is a bit to much for someone our age
Yeah it's wild now seeing people, specifically millennials, say that their generation were being "real kids doing real kid things" in the 2000s and not buying drunk elephant skincare and stanley cups,
um Stacy your aspirations at 13 was to be a VS model and had a tantrum because you wanted to buy literally anything there, don't pretend I didn't forget.
i remember being SHOCKED when barbara palvin was hired as their "plus sized" model?! LIKE WTF
not to defend the brand or anything but it was the press that call her plus size not VS themselves
@@Sonmmmxuan vs still played into it.
if shes plus size what am i ??
That strange period of time when Gigi Hadid was being referenced as having a “different” more athletic body type than the other VS models…😳
I'm glad you mentioned that people with larger busts need the support that bras offer. Everytime I see posts or hear comments about how we all should get rid of bras and such because "they are useless" and that we are forced to wear them it makes my skin crawl, mostly when it comes from women who have a small bust. I would hate to go every single day without a bra because it would make a lot of activities more uncomfortable for me, especially the ones that require a lot of movement.
Same. It happens without fail and I'm just sitting here with spine damage like wow, must be nice
I’m A cup and need the support of a bra too, I don’t know how these girls chests don’t hurt from the gravity at the end of the day. Shocker, undergarments have a practical function lol
Having larger chests are what keep me from exercising more intensley, large sports bras are expensive and hard to find. It really is so uncomfy
I literally have a bra for everyday, a bra for working out, and a bra for work. I get terrible headaches just lounging around the house without a bra, my shoulders even crack horribly whenever I try sitting up straight without one. I work a very physically demanding job and I seriously couldn't even imagine trying to do my job without a bra. I'm tossing 50-180lbs boxes and items and I'm sure as hell not going to be doing that while my girls are swinging wild. The pain would be beyond fucked up and my skin has literally ripped in the past because I didn't have the proper support when doing rigorous work
Same, I am much much more comfortable with «the girls» not bouncing and flapping all over the place 😝
Only if I am lounging on the sofa at home in my lounge pj’s do I go bra-less 🤔
So my boyfriend and I were talking about VS once and he told me this joke he heard about it. At Victoria's Secret, if you have small boobs, you get lace and bows and fun colors! Anything over a C Cup? Enjoy these two burlap sacks held together with some fishing line and wire.
And in their big size-inclusice launch, all the plus size models... were in the same boring bras as ever.
This is how it is/was anywhere that carries underwear, except actual plus size stores
Well.... he says it multiple times, in public, in interviews, etc. "The shows are a (my) fantasy." He has no desire to make lingerie for women (I should say girls) he doesn't want to see in that lingerie. That's it. That's all.
His "angel" is a girl aged 15-22 who's a particular weight, size, and skintone. This entire billion-dollar culture-forming enterprise is to get his sweet 17 year old angel in the lingerie he wants to see her in.
It's hard to swallow that that pedophile passion-project got so big and was still JUST that- a pedophile passion project, but it is. I'm sorry. But he bought a lingerie store for 4 million and made it into that fantasy, and that's our culture.
Corsets and bustles/petticoats were also not only for getting the ideal body shape for the era but also to literally support the clothing’s weight. Lots of layer heavy and a tight well fitting under layer helps disperse the weight and anchor the clothing to the body. Don’t forget a lot of clothing wasn’t perfectly tailored and was pinned to the wearer to be flexible with size and silhouettes.
Corsets and stays also gave better support than most bras today especially for larger chests (bras today don't support as well because it puts the weight on the shoulders whereas corsets place it on your core meaning less backpain)
I think it’s also worth pointing out that wanting to feel sexually attractive isn’t a bad thing - what’s bad is when we are told we have to fit into a restrictive, very gendered, and very oppressive way of looking to be seen that way. As someone isn’t really attracted to men and someone who identifies as nonbinary, I still want to feel sexy. I just want to express that in a way that embraces who I am
Very well put 👏👏👏 i wonder how, in your experience, you navigate trying to be sexy as non binary, when sexyness is sooooo gendered (if that's a word) i'm super curious !
@@capucnechaussonpassion14 I’m not the original poster, but I would like to tell you that sexiness isn’t gendered. There is a specific connection of sexiness and gender expression that is seen as society norm, in the same way people thought only skinny body type transfer sexual appeal. It also depends on how you define sexiness, really, but sexiness may just be a feeling that appears when you know and feel you are attractive, no matter in a way that is the society norm or not :D
It’s not a bad thing at all. Unfortunately nuance was lost long ago.
Is there something wrong with living your entire life to please someone else (a man or woman…) and neglecting your own wants and needs in the process? Yes.
If you are a heterosexual - bi woman is there anything wrong with dressing up for an evening in order to look and feel sexy for a man in your life and yourself?
Not a damn thing.
Is there anything wrong with dressing up and looking/feeling sexy for another woman if you are lesbian/bi?
Not even close.
Is there anything wrong with dressing up and looking sexy for a man if you are a gay or bi man?
Hell naw.
It’s human. It’s what we do.
Wanting to please your partner is not bad. Wanting them to please you is not bad.
You shouldn’t ever expect someone to live to please or assume that people are living their lives to please based on a flashbulb moment/snapshot. It’s not going to happen. No one has that level of time or energy.
In the 1970s - 80s feminist critiques on makeup, flattering dress and more took a hardline lesbian separatist radical feminist turn and it wasn’t a healthy one. Lesbian separatism was rejected by the majority of lesbians and hetero women for good reason. Their ideology went to such a bizarre extreme that it ended up sitting in the laps of the religious right and that is where it remains today.
In one decade hetero women went from being shamed by their families and communities - being locked up in houses of ill repute for having sex outside of marriage to fighting for liberation on this front to feeling the need to officially and loudly state that they only dressed up and felt sexy for themselves.
All while most true fighters for sexual liberation continued to fight for gay men, lesbian women and trans men/women being jailed, shunned, harassed, sent to homes of ill repute.
Some radfems started declaring hetero women the “sex slaves of left wing men” early on during the sexual revolution and started to work closely with the right (well documented) to roll back freedoms won.
I will never forgive them for it.
@@narcissistsanonymous3904 Not at all. The pendulum unfortunately swings too far in relation to most things.
Hetero girls/women started being hounded to defend perfectly natural behaviors when I was a girl. It’s completely dishonest to say that you only do a, b and c for yourself, and never because you are interested in - love a guy. Don’t get me wrong. You can and will get gussied up for yourself. You’ll do it to make yourself feel better, to get out of a funk, or simply because you love to play with clothes and makeup. There is nothing wrong with also doing it for someone you like. The idea that it’s only done to please men and that you have to start defending your every move at 13 years old because it is practically a social crime to do so is a bit much (to put it mildly).
@@pollysshore2539 hm I misread your intent here. Im a butch lesbian and nonbinary and I feel equally objectified by men and women for different reasons and I am constantly made to feel bad because I don’t value my sexual attractiveness above my own mental health and my desire to be seen as a human being. im not a terf or radical feminist, but it is in fact mostly feminist adult women who pressured me into wearing make up and dressing hyper-femininely in order to be “reclaiming my womanhood against the patriarchy.” meanwhile the religious right i was raised in was shaming me for wanting to be with women and not want to act in a way befitting a future wife and mother, and a huge emphasis was placed on traditional white femininity in my household. i dont feel like there is a place for me as someone who rejects the modern pressure to be sexually attractive, whether it’s for straight men or what most queer women expect from a masculine woman. im simply not important to either movement.
I feel like the new generation is all about inclusivity and body positivity/diversity yet everyone on social media filters and photoshops the crap out of their videos/photos to the point where they're almost unrecognizable. So which is it? It's super contradicting. I feel like a lot of people are just hypocrites. They support and encourage others to not fall within the beauty standard, but they themselves need to look beautiful and perfect
HOT TAKE BUT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAY ABOUT PLASTIC SURGERY. I disagree that plastic surgery is "feminist" because I believe feminism is empowering women and encouraging them to love themselves the way that they are rather than changing their bodies to fit the beauty standards! Seems backwards doesn't it?
And being Filipino, I noticed that women get surgery to get more Eurocentric features, such as a pointier nose.
The body positivity movement still focuses heavily on beauty. For example, it's fine if a woman is plus sized as long as she has a pretty face and hourglass silhouette.
This is why I'm with body neutrality, while I love seeing women feel empowered, it just feels like such a mess as a whole. Outside of what you said you also see people going "yas quEen" for the big girls while bullying the smaller girls, maybe its just me but it feels very performative sometimes.
@@johannaelloso9418 As a fellow Pinay, I agree and this rings so true. I now I remember that one post that blew up over someone's rhinoplasty lately. Sadly the only thing they even mostly argued about was it going against religion, and not the problem that might have lead them to going under the knife in the first place.
Well I mean if they don’t fit the standard or focus of beauty in their daily lives, they’ll be oustrizied and be mistreated. For example there are feminist that don’t shave and or dress that does not fit the standard.but if u see online sometimes they get harassed and bullied. and plus they’ll be ignored by the general public.
"There is over 19 cup sizes"? Girl, how?? Panache alone offers at least 72 cup sizes! Really, the world needs a discussion how we were all robbed of our true bra sizes and forced into mismatched, shabby crap made by people who have no idea about breasts besides "if visible, then it's 34B".
19 cup sizes - not bra sizes. Because of sister sizing, a 30DD is the same cup size as a 32D or a 34C etc. At least I think that’s what they meant, but idk!
@@emilyanne9513 I'm guessing they meant purely the letter sizes. As in AA to N with all the double letters in between. 19 cups in combination with say 15-ish band sizes gives you 285 individual sizes.
@@AnnekeOosterink yeah that’s probably it!
Victoria Secret's being created for men makes so much sense. Personally, I enjoy simple silk lingerie without patterns or lace. I owned three VS bras when I was a teen and I found them being very poor in quality and staby in the underbust area. A storebrand bra was way more comfy and provided more support then them. Maybe the runway pieces were good and those being selled of a lower quality.
I totally agree! I think they should focus on product quality more, 100% polyester pajamas, are you kidding me, how am I supposed to sleep in this?
Well duh, the men aren't wearing them! And the runway models only wear them for a few minutes, plus they're paid to look like they're having the time of their lives.
The point is definitely to make softcore porn for him, he literally says it multiple times. "This store is for men" "The shows are a (my) fantasy." He has no desire to make lingerie for women he doesn't want to see in that lingerie. That's it. That's all.
You can’t, come on, fat women ain’t sexy. And transgender men are stealing modelling jobs from female models more and more , why aren’t the female models up in arms that men are getting two bites of the cherry, they can model in men’s and women’s shoe. No way. Get them out.
Unpopular opinion: I sometimes question Rih’s authenticity when it comes to diversity… of course she’s done so much for inclusivity but she’s also with a man who has made many colorist remarks, so does she truly “advocate” black women especially dark skinned women? Or she just uses “diversity” as a selling point? Even with the sweat shops where Fenty items are made, most of those women are women of colour who are being exploited! And also not to mention the islamphobia…..
exactly i also remember seeing a video about this and how on her savage x fenty website the darker and bigger models were at the bottom. of the website rather than the top. and also how the clothes that she shows the plus size models in her fenty show are different to the ones she's actually selling for bigger people.
It has always really bothered me that when you click on a bra or underwear if you select a “larger” size the style changes! Like excuse me Rih I would actually like the same exact bra thank you. You don’t need to cover my breast up more because I am a 40 instead of 38!
I agree. Rihanna is not Mother Theresa. She’s a pop star / businesswoman. People should stop assuming that the people who they are fans of are completely authentic.
@@ltaylor3033 yup, I watched a video about that as well. And I haven't bought from her brands in years; ever since I discovered the VIP was sketch and where the garments came from, I stopped. Plus, sis is a whole billionaire, and we know to get there exploitation happened somewhere.
Fenty bills itself as having inclusive sizing but selling bras in only band sizes 32-38 and cup sizes A-D is literally the industry standard range, in no way is that inclusive sizing, literally you can find a wider size range almost anywhere else, other than maybe somewhere extra bad like brandy Melville(if they sell bras idk).
Obviously the rebrand was long overdue but why did they decide get rid of all the more colourful, intricately designed garments. Inclusive fashion can still be fun and fanciful. Of course I appreciate comfort but it’s not an either or. Just because I’m buying for myself instead of to pleasure a man, doesn’t mean I want something demure, simple and neutral.
"Angels" are Wexner's angels. His exact size, weight, age, height, breast size and skin tone of girl he wants to have sex with. That's all. That's why he bought those stores.
You aren't one of his little "angels" that he wants to have sex with, so why dress you up for it? That's the reasoning there, I'm afraid.
I work in a lingerie brand and y’all would be terrified by number of women being told which underwear to buy and being bullied by their own husbands&boyfriends into wearing something they themselves don’t even like
Omg I didn't know Pink was catered to "teens". I thought it was a more casual wear and more affordable option compared to their regular items
Pink execs tried to say it was aimed at undergrads. Friend of mine worked there and went to a conference where she brought up her concerns about marketing that shit to teens. She was told “ we aren’t marketing to teens”. Le sigh.
Well, it's not appropriate for teens, so it makes sense. But it's "appropriate" I suppose for wexner's "angels"- girls of a particular size, weight, race, height, skintone, and.....age.
8:20
Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.
- Margaret Atwood
i remember hearing this is a jordan theresa vid and ive never been the same
@@strawberrymilk418 because we’re all affected by the society around us. It’s okay for you to do those things that make you feel good though. I don’t think it’s judgement
@@strawberrymilk418 I think you can still enjoy all those things just be critical of why you enjoy them.
@@strawberrymilk418 everything is politicized because everything we do,like it or not,IS subconsciously influenced by the politics of the world to a certain extent
Did anyone see Heidi Klum's weird reaction to the doc? She said it was "quite boring" and didn't get why people were making such a fuss. She's always been sus to me. Of course her experience was different because she was treated like royalty....just because it didn't affect her negatively doesn't mean shadiness wasn't going on.
Heidi Klum is an awful person in general.
She benefitted greatly from VS financially, so I highly doubt that she had any bad experience. Which is really dissapointing coming from a women that came from the ED era of modeling.
If I’d pocketed $20million from VS I probably wouldn’t find it an issue either.
She’s the woman who was on the runway weeks after giving birth. If she examines it too closely she’ll probably have a mental breakdown.
Why weren’t you at home bonding with your baby rather than working out for hours every day?*
What did she compromise to do all that?
*not that you can’t have a baby and do other things. I’m talking about the extreme. Extreme workouts weeks after birth purely to look thin on a runway. You are compromising your recovery and the needs of your newborn for this.
Yep... She was like : 'I didn't recognize any of the models in the documentary and I was lucky to not have experienced anything that bad.....' What does it matter if she recognizes the models participating in the doc? Their experiences matter. She likely blocked out the cringeworthy Rupert Everett experience, because... She sounded wayy too nonchalant and dismissive in that interview
In Germany, her general bad vibes are quite well known. Dunno wether the current Germany's Next Topmodel leaks already fizzled out or not, but considering the Internet has an attention span of like 5 seconds, probably.
Id love to see more big brands showing models with muscular builds because as someone who has somewhat muscular arms and legs, it makes me feel “less feminine” in a way whenever I wear “girly” clothes (even though I love them) and usually models with a more athletic build are sent directly to sports companies and never to anything else.
Well, Epstien and Wexner don't find that arousing, so they won't be making it, lol. I don't get why people don't understand that the "angels" are...his angels. His desired woman. Nothing more.
your bit about the panopticon, self-surveillance, and just this topic in general really took me back to the experience of being a pre/early teen in the mid 2000's, and the additional feeling of not just self-surveillance, but (in a sense) learning/having self-surveillance pushed onto me and normalized as i saw others in my circle of peers do the same.
Victorias secret and its branches (VS PINK, etc) were absolutely HUGE at my middle school- we had open-style change rooms and I vividly remember feeling so...ashamed(?) embarrased(?) by my run-of-the-mill convenience-pack 'granny panties' while others (the popular crowd, if you will) wore lacy thong-cuts. There was never any outward judgment, but an unsaid sort of pressure to 'catch up'. I talked to some friends about this after watching your video and they had the same sentiment. It's so insane to me that this was on our minds at such a young age- why were we even thinking about 'looking good' when we were just kids? Ugh.
Love that you talk about the size ranges AND mention that a DDD is not that big! Made me feel so seen 😭 finally somebody gets it
Oh my god yes. Especially with how ducked up the system of sister sizes can be! I wear a 75 DDD, and I recently did … „inherit“ a 85 DD form my mom, and while the back is definitely way to big, the cup is also clearly on the big side. It’s … not as frustrating as it could be, for me at least, as I can afford buying bras for 50€. But kinda still sad, because for some of the very nice sets I see in the window of our local lingerie chain, I know: yeah, I’ll never fit those properly.
And don’t get me started on sports bras.
I wear a 28DD/30D in bras and shopping for those sizes WITHOUT buying overseas (UK lingerie stores) is fucking impossible. I’m really lucky if I can score a 30D bra at Aerie but that’s rare bc they’re sold out. I just go bra-less 98% of the time. Although I wear a D cup, my girls are pretty small and I’m also probably on the “larger” end of the Itty Bitty Titty Committee (I.B.T.C).
Growing up as a lesbian and a very feminine teen I genuinely found the VS brand aspirational. My family was very disapproving of it, and a big part of my teenage rebellion was secretly shopping there. I was, and am, super gay so I liked the fashion shows and models. After becoming more socially conscious and hearing about all of the terrible conditions the company lost a lot of its appeal and I stopped shopping there. However, replacing the aesthetic of the brand has been almost impossible. I still like the hyper-feminine glam look and the essentialist approach to underwear is honestly not for me. I recently heard about their rebrand and tried out their products again, and it was refreshing to actually see styles that appealed to me. I totally understand and anticipate that their offerings seem outdated, objectifying, and even garish to most people, but I wish other brands would at least take notes from their aesthetic choices. Fun and flirty can be sustainable too.
Yes!!! 100% agree
Thank you, some of their aesthetic choices resonate more with my taste than most lingerie I see nowadays
When I was a teen, I loved the Victoria angels. Yes, they were beautiful and aspirational, but the actual wings they wore were what I was most attracted to.
As a girl I liked watching the fashion shows too! The angels were just so beautiful and I loved how glamorous the styling was on the runway. The hair, makeup, heels, bling, THE WINGS! etc. It was such an amazing aesthetic. I know it's sad because they didn't want to include plus size or trans women etc, but I wish that they'd keep the beautiful aesthetic and the glamorous fashion shows and just have diverse angels
Yes that's it. I 100% agree. Despite all the scandals I love VS aesthatic. I grew up watching their show, and fortunately now maturing I never even once wanted to change myself into their angels body goal. I love my body, and I love their hyper feminine glam aesthetic. I think no brand can compare to them in this aspect.
You hit the nail on the head with your comment about support garments not being inherently oppressive. The way they are marketed can be (and often is) problematic, but as someone with a larger chest, I am literally never NOT wearing support. I need it regardless of what a man thinks. I am totally a feminist, but the point is for women to have the choice.
As a Victoria’s Secret employee and a fan of Mina Le’s with her opening remark about her perception of the term “lingerie” reminded me how a few days ago the company released a message mentioning how we Weill be changing the company’s term “lingerie” into intimates. Interesting
VS has dug its grave at this point, the styles are out dated and the branding is no longer grabbing the public. Their stance on body type and presentation have solidified them as one of the most non inclusive and toxic brands on the market. The glitter and rhinestone panties can only be redone so many times. And yes I used to wear their items as teen and into my early 20’s. There are now so many unproblematic,sustainable, ALL body friendly brands there’s no need to shop with them anymore. 🤷🏾♀️
I remember them giving a freaking official statement when asked a few years ago if they'd start being more inclusive and the company said no because it wasn't the fantasy. Then like a year later they reported a massive dive in sells and then a few months later they were very loud about becoming inclusive, but by that time there were SO many other companies with better quality products that had already done it. I think the only reason the doors are still open is because certain women still cling to their teen/early college years and believe it's the epitome of brand names
@@hambone4984 totally agree! The styles are very dated, and no practical for every day usage no matter what age is wearing the items. It’s unfortunate but it’s good the public/consumers see who they really are so a business!
While I agree with the rest of your comment, I definitely don’t think it’s totally true that the brand is outdated. 2000’s nostalgia and the trashy y2k trend has been going strong for a few years now, pink and vs are inherently tied to these things and as a college aged girl the large majority of my peers still idolize the brand because its what they grew up seeing the women in their life wear
@@Clown-Boy it’s not as strong as you think. It’s a micro trend highlighted by Tiktok, Pinterest and shein
@@Imxel21 definitely not a microtrend, the y2k subculture has been huge for quite a while now, and started back as early as 2014. Maybe it’s popularity in the bigger fashion sphere fluctuates, but it’s always had a decent sized home based imo
I gotta say that wearing lingerie, matching underwear, cute bras, etc. make me feel happy and pretty. Nobody has ever seen me naked in a sexual context, I do it for myself cause I like to feel nice. We need feminism and we need to renounce dressing only for men (unless you want to) but we also need to embrace just feeling yourself. Wonderful video, Mina. Ily ✌️
I think the issue is that we don't often step back and question *why* it makes us feel confident/beautiful/sexy... Those standards have been drilled into our heads all of our lives and we play onto them whether it's conscious or not, I think.
I relate so much! wearing a well-fitting and beautiful set of underwear/lingerie is such a confidence boost (and umcomfortable ones are such a pain)!
@@lacey892 While that definitely is true for an unfortunate lot of women/enbies/transfolks, pushing it onto absolutely everyone is a bit patronizing. For some of us, it's not even about feeling beautiful or confident. We love lace and beautiful fabric and we want to have clothes made of such fabric, undergarments included. Easy as that.
@@lacey892 Why do Crows like shiny things? They just do. No one forced that on them. If you like a color, like a fabric, like the way it looks on your body and it makes you feel good then you just like it. Not everything is for/because of the male gaze and societal standards. People have been expressing themselves, wearing makeup, making and wearing jewelry, wearing stylized clothing since the beginning of time! Not everything has to be boring and egalitarian. It’s our natural instinct to be creative, and everyone has a different way. There doesn’t have to be a rhyme or reason to it. Some people just enjoy dressing and being in a way that society might deem as overtly “feminine”.
@@lacey892 bright colors, nice patterns, loving my body for all that it does for me, appreciating all that I am and accepting it 🤷
Thank you for mentioning the harmful fabrics used in underwear! It's something no one talks about and it changed my life. I used to experience terrible cramping nearly every day for years, and I was told it was just normal menstrual or ovulation cramping. I tried lots of options to mitigate the pain but when I started switching to pure cotton underwear and menstrual products I finally started feeling better. Now I almost exclusively wear cotton on my lower half and I'm no longer guzzling ibuprofen all day. If a brand says they support women and they're using synthetic materials for underwear or menstrual products they're liars.
I am suddenly grateful that my mom ALWAYS bought me 100% cotton underwear . . . she wasn't just being petty!
i would really like to see you do a breakdown of bodybuilding culture too bc the dieting, eds, and image obsession is pretty similar. i love these
Yes, please!!!
I’m happy that the company has finally been exposed and being held somewhat accountable for the amount of damage it has caused to the female population and how society in general views and treats people based on their weight and appearance. It’s probably going to take decades to reverse the damages caused…
I had so many bad experiences at VS as a curvy woman. When I was a 32F cup, I was looking for something sexy and the shop assistant informed me that the entire room I was looking in didn't go above a C cup because "us small chested women need cute bras too", as though they actually carried anything frilly or beautiful in my size. I walked out with a plain black and a plain pink t-shirt bra because they they were literally the only colors and styles carried in my size. Another time an assistant tried to insist that I would fit into a 38D when I told her all I wanted was underwear, and she wouldn't let me have a dressing room until I tried it on and lo and behold, the cups were too small and the band was too large so I had zero support. I was so irritated and flustered by the experience that I bought the underwear I had originally came in for and walked out of the store holding the tote bag that she had shoved all of my try-ons in, meaning that I inadvertently shoplifted a tote bag because I was made so uncomfortable. That was the last time I stepped foot in a VS.
God. That's terrible. Some people are just.... 😒
Last time I went in I was 19 or 20 and only a DDD cup. This was in the 90s. When I asked if they carried my size the shop assistant looked at me like I was a mutant and told me I would have to get that specially made.
So I went to Nordstrom where I got one off the shelf. Eesh. VS has never been about serving women.
I'm a DDD and the amount of times I've been told "there's no such thing as a DDD, it's just a DD" and then I try it on and wow! Who could have predicted that the cups were too small and I was spilling out of it, but the employees at VS would just go "bras are supposed to fit like that when you have big boobs" and then they'd try to sell me in extenders because a 36 wouldn't fit... And don't even get me started on the lack of support those bras had. I've had quite a few VS employees tell me over the decades that bras "that big" in the store are catered towards women with implants. Like ok? Then why not just tell me at the door you don't have the size instead of wasting my time
I’ve had similar experiences at VS, although not as dramatic as yours. I’m glad to know I’m not the only one that had issues shopping there.
i have D cups and i couldn't find anything online. Seriously??
something you didn't mention but I immediately thought of was the fact that they would fire angels for gaining weight or getting pregnant and it caused a lot of controversy and years later (2010s I think?) they tried patting themselves on the back by keeping on a model who had given birth like "look she's back! see we didn't fire her! good on us!"
I remember in the early 2010s Cara Delevine was marketed as the "relatable" model for girls my age. She would eat whole pizzas like all of us but was also celebrated for how fit she was. Still kinda mad at her for contributing to this culture but I also know she was so young and probably didn't have that much control in her image.
yeah she stayed skinny by doing coke. like a lot of models and actors
That guy kissing Heidi Klum’s legs made me sooooooo uncomfortable. Like my stomach churned. And the Epstein stuff makes my body quiver.
It’s funny though because somehow I was able to separate the models from the clothes? I just liked the clothes because I like colorful, sparkly, and lacey things. And I hate to say that most of my loungewear is Pink, but it is. It’s actually super comfy and high quality… and I own only VS and Pink everyday intimate wear.
But for women and girls who looked up to this, no. Men don’t determine your value, every woman is beautiful. Disgusting and vile men especially. I’m kind of excited to see women taking over the narrative now for the brand, I would want them to make a comeback because their stuff is pretty good quality. Really we need a female CEO, all female heads. Pink is also going towards gender neutral too. I’m still upset my favorite body mist is gone and the underwear quality went downhill, but it’s fine for me not to spend more money lol
It’s annoying because I had to buy a 40D online as a gift for someone, and they don’t have it in store. Yet they can measure you and say you’re that size. Fenty’s brand also still has problems, but it’s slightly better. The show looks great! And I got a VS commercial for their Tease perfume while watching lmao
The very sad thing is that Heidi apparently internalized these creepy behaviour herself or got brainwashed into thinking this is somehow "normal". She still has a model show in German TV (very much like Tyra has in the US) and for over a decade now she still teaches young aspiring models there (minimum age was rather recently raised from 16 to 18) to do whatever the client wants them to do, even if that makes them uncomfortable or causes pain.
I studied fashion and if a mom/dad were to ask me if it's safe for their teens to get into modeling, I would say no. It's s a system that caters to predators that range from designers to photographers and chair board members. It's a cesspool and no, I'm not exaggerating.
@@gloriaherrera9876 I got invited when I was in 6th grade to a scouting/audition but my dad was the one against it over my mom and I. Thank god I didn’t lol One thing I’m proud of myself is for always having a healthy body image. My parents never emphasized looks. But performance… yes. Hence my anxiety lol
Is he the gay guy from my best friends wedding ? That character is ruined for me now
The man, Rupert Everett came out as gay in 1989. But the scene, the choice to shoot it and it’s implications are still nauseating, even knowing that he didn’t personally had sexual pleasure out of it.
I think the word you’re looking for is “intimates” 😊 As an intimates designer, we consider “lingerie” to be the sexy stuff, lace and satin and all that and usually sold in matching sets.
As far as modern intimates go, I think brands like Parade, Aerie and CUUP are killing it. VS is still huge, the products are still pretty cute but their marketing is inauthentic and feels generic, at least in my opinion. But what do I know, I’m just a humble lingerie designer 🤷🏾♀️
I am Latin and here women are voluptuous and thick or this at least this is the beauty standard. I’ve always been really thin and tiny and I’ve always felt rejected for that, and the VS models were a standard I felt I could achieve. But since I knew it wasn’t even real and those women were suffering, I was so disappointed
Don't feel bad. The entire point when he bought those lingerie stores was to dress his sweet teen angels (girls of a certain weight, height, measurement and skintone) in the kind of lingerie he'd like to take off of them. You didn't want to be on that island.
I love your panopticon mention on why women claim to love wearing lingerie "for themselves". I love wearing it too, because I feel pretty for myself. But the concept of looking pretty in THAT way wasn't made up by me out of thin air, it was injected in my subconscious. Also, I feel like the panopticon concept is the justification to why some women SWEAR they shave/wax because THEY like, and not because men expect them not to have body hair. Like, girl, please, you wouldn't feel the urge of shaving your legs or armpits if you were born and lived in a desert island, completely isolated from beauty/feminine standarts representation. So no, it's not for "comfort" or "hygiene".
"I wear makeup for myself"
"I did plastic surgery for myself"
Cut the crap tbh.
I don’t like having leg hair but pre social media i never even noticed it…sooOoOoO
I would feel that urge because I am autistic and certain body hairs bug me. Would I get over it? Ya.
I'm neurodivergent, and the texture of my body hair has always irritated me, especially my underarms, starting from around 11 right up until today. at 11, I was completely unaware of any societal hairlessness norms, and I'm a lesbian so I definitely don't do it for men. There are definitely those who do it for comfort, we aren't the majority but we do genuinely exist.
I'm the type of person who will feel the movement of my arm and leg hair against clothing and wind, and will feel uncomfortable by it. I only shave my arm pits because I don't like feeling the movement of hair against my clothes, and the feeling that sweat is trapped there instead of getting on the clothes and drying.
I also noticed that I have more dead skin and dirt coming off when I have hair than when I'm shaved. So to me, hair traps dead skin and dirt more than be shaved and therefore is less hygienic. I really hate _hate_ the feeling of being sweaty or dirty. The urge to shave to avoid it is there.
I'm not the majority but I definitely shave for comfort. Feeling hygienic is very much a comfort thing as well.
P.S. The movement of hair can feel like bugs crawling on the skin. If a bug was on me, I don't know where and what the bug has been or landed on. Even if there wasn't a bug, the fact that it feels like it was on me is ick! The urge to get rid of the feeling is high.
(I don't think I have any OCD or whatever else. If I did, it would be undiagnosed and would likely never be diagnosed.)
whenever you say "hello my beautiful doves" its the most calming thing I've heard omg
I see a few people saying they don't need bras in a way that suggest they think NOBODY needs bras. Not even just in this comment section, I see it every single time bras are mentioned.
Even if not a bra, there are people that definitely need them. I'm one of them, I have constant back pain that only reduces when I wear a well-fitting bra but my size changes so much it got too expensive to keep trying to find a good fit. I have actual damage to my spine partially from how heavy mine are (moderate spine deterioration, a bone spur that caused so much damage my back is entirely numb in the area, and two Pars fractures likely also caused by my chest. Individually they way 5 lbs 11oz. That's more than 10 lbs hanging on my chest.)
It's fantastic when someone can get away with little to no support without risking their health but please realize y'all are lucky because of it.
This!
I prefer corsets and stays and wear those mostly..I absolutely hate bras!! Corsets are so much more supportive.
Holy crap. I weighed 5 pounds, 11 ounces when I was born. It’s insane that boobs can get that big. Wow.
@@-alovelygaycat- Honestly, while that's pretty big, it's not all that big tbh. Mine weigh approximately the same, and while I do wear a larger cup size, I'm definitely not wearing the biggest size.
Most people have in their heads that D is HUGE, but 1 size of the cup depends on the band size and 2 D is actually pretty small. The average size is somewhere in the E-G range.
As a fat kid that later became anorexic, the first time that I made an unhealthy diet was when I was 12 and saw a VS runway, so maybe it is problematic to not be inclusive in brands, but I feel like brands aren't quite there yet, we as a society are still obsessed with looks and there's still a very long long way until it changes
When Victoria's Secret tried to market their brand as "inclusive" it felt a little bit too unauthentic. Savage X Fenty felt more inclusive and appealed to more people. When I learned about Savage's controversies, I couldn't help but feel disappointed. As I gotten older, I learned to care more about the quality of a product than anything else besides price
Such an informative video! As a plus size woman I was always too scared to shop at Victoria's Secret because I thought it was only for skinny, thin women. I also felt like their underwear, especially bras, were catered towards women who already had a "perfect" breast shape. If you didn't have perky medium-sized breasts, there was no way your boobs were fitting comfortably in a VS bra. I'm glad we're moving past the need for "male gaze" clothing.
I was obsessed with the Victoria’s Secret UA-cam channel circa 2011. I was in 6th grade. Wildly unhealthy shit
Same ikr, I thought they all looked super healthy and not skinny, my mum thought otherwise lol
I think the most empowering thing they could've done would be getting inclusive plus sized + transgender models...WEARING THE SEXY LINGERIE! It's almost worst what they did with their campaign now with having all of these inclusive models wearing boring and plain looking undergarments because it basically says only the thin/tiny models get to wear sexy lingerie but not everyone else? Like they did not understand the assignment
To show curvy women in their lingerie they would have to actually make lingerie that would fit and flatter the bodies of curvy women
@@HerWanderlust They had to make new lingerie anyway so why not just take what you already have and make it fit a bigger body???
The girls in the lingerie were the sexual fantasy of the owners. His shows were ways to get his fantasy live. He's not attracted to fat or transgender people- there's no point in putting them into his personal softcore porn machine.
Your mistake is thinking that there's any point to this sexy lingerie besides looking sexy for the owner(s) specifically. There isn't. There never was. His "Angels" in his shows, and the pleasure of knowing he'd spread his preferred lingerie to more "Angels" around the world that he'd never meet. It's not for the wearer. It's for him to watch. They said it themselves.
I think they refused trans models from being casted was obviously cause the people in charge are transphobic and feared it would scare off their horny male demographic from watching their shows.Honestly trans models dont need to work for a problematic brand like that and deserve to work for brands that are more inclusive.
They’ve done plus sized vs shows and they weren’t well received for the brand and effected sales or something
Bernadette Banner is a fashion historian and has a lot of videos on historical underwear that are super interesting! she also recently did a video attempting to clean a dress created according to historical methods, using historical methods to clean it
as someone with large breasts, I avoid wearing a bra as much as possible. Bras give me back pain much more than not wearing one, but I wear them to try to conform to the ideal beauty standard of small perky breasts, not large saggy ones. I have also received a lot of negative messaging about my breasts that they should be covered up and controlled as much as possible.
Yeah that makes much more sense to me, since after all humans didn't wear bras for most of history and prehistory.
Same same same. I despise that I’ve grown to feel uncomfy w showing my (large) boobs as they are because of what you said, as well as sexualization. Smh.
I know, people are much more forgiving of small-breasted women going braless but not large ones? Fuck that.
Same girl my back hurts and the bras pinch me stab me and dig into my skin
I wish I could do this 😭
thank you for mentioning the fact that bras essentially hold boobs - for women, especially if the boobs are big and women are working. If you analyze traditional clothing around the world, a lot of it has some kind of boob support in it. And a lot of it is also nicely decorated (because why not)
this was great!! you should talk about old navy’s plus size line and huge inclusivity push, and then they secretly removed plus sizes for 70% of their stores
I love the way you break down this complex topics. As a millennial who was in high school in the late 00's, I find your videos that explore culture and sexuality during this time period to be oddly helpful in pinpointing some of my own insecurities and worldviews that I've worked on over the years. Please keep putting out this quality content!!
I'm from Uruguay, and last year Victoria's Secret opened a store here. Not many big US brands come here, so the fact that they started to open stores here really says something about the state of the bussiness atm. And still, noone really goes there so idk how much theyll last
they still have their supermodel angels, they're now For Love and Lemons' models. FLL only uses super skinny models for reposts and campaign ads, and never show mid sizes despite carrying them.
not to mention FLL uses VS' manufacturing and still charges their level of pricing for the poor quality, sad.
I love FL and L designs but i'm unimpressed with the quality. I''m not just paying for how it looks, I expect something designer to be of good quality as well.
Personally, every time I've worn lingerie for a man, they didn't appreciate it as much as I did! I like to wear it for myself. It's pretty.
Your work and channel has become one of my favorite go-to’s while I am doing chores or hanging out. Very very well done, like a breath of fresh air back to college critical thinking days.
And god its so icky, I was a teen 2003-2009 and there were 2 choices: you were either pick-me misogynistic tomboy, or bimbo-esque mall fodder PINK girl. My friend group had both and I always felt bad that my girl Amanda looked like a VS model and got treated the worst by boys trying to commodify her, and I got treated terribly because I was too fat and not sexy enough. I DON’T MISS THAT TIME. Today’s era post-Me Too has been so much more enjoyable to live in 😅
You know Victoria’s Secret is toxic when you recognize how terribly oppressive they are for women and young girls but while watching this you have the urge to watch the fashion show. Like a toxic boyfriend.
the bts permission to dance vcr audio in the intro was EVERYTHING!!!!! 🤍🤭🫠
i love how well put together your videos are and how they feel like documentary girl you have skill AND talent and that's hard to come by.
I think one other issue is cultural appropriation in the VS shows. It doesn’t help that it was a lingerie show that sexualises these cultural garments.
Creepy and utterly disrespectful.
I'm asian and I never had an issue with some of the costumes. Anyone that spews "cultural appropriation" is anti- cultural exploration
@@peacockcrowe2718 rlly depends how "cultural appreciate" they are, as well more wut the majority think.
The fact that they have been very vocal about not including all body types and sizes in the past, definitely makes this rebrand seem less genuine in comparison to other company’s who have become more inclusive in the last few years. Not to mention the fact that their inclusive lingerie is not sexy-even though that’s what their brand is known for. So even in their “inclusivity” it seems like they are still perpetuating this idea that bigger bodies can’t be desirable or sexy.
I loved that you mentioned how bras themselves aren't "evil" regarding how big busted women sort of need bras for health reasons. If I don't wear a bra, I have SEVERE back and shoulder and neck pain, can't breathe comfortably, and it's just painful to walk. I wish bras could be marketed less towards being sexy and more towards being comfortable and practical and good for your health.
So glad to hear you mention the hood on you app! I literally use it whenever I need to buy new clothing/accessories, love it!
I think the funny thing about Victoria Secret trying to be inclusive is that it’s “plus size” ends at like size 14, which isn’t even that big at all. In fact, I’m size 12-14 and I am still hourglass and tall. It’s still part of that body standard of model but with a bit more tummy and chubbier . No where near inclusive because not everyone is hourglass or that toned rectangle body .
Isn’t 14 or 16 also like the average size of an adult woman in the US?
@@drawingwithezra4212 yep, at least the last time I checked
I thought 14 was like a medium.
VS trying to sell Barbara Palvin as a model fitting the diversity box always has me shocked, the woman is no doubt beautiful but still probably UK size 8 maximum! It's just like when in the early 2000s Scarlett Johansson was presented as some sort of extremely curvy, resembling the size of a regular person actress while the reality is she's not...
I used to work at a lingerie store and got to see a variety of beliefs. But it all comes down to comfort.
I personally feel comfortable in a silk slip or Lacey sets, it flatters my body, and mind. Its an accessory that helped me to love my body. Others liked more private pieces and others went all out to show the world their beauty. Life is art and art is subjective. 💕🥰
Coming back to watch your videos after a lil crisis gives me sooo much peace, I really love all ur videos girl 💖💖💖
i never felt sexy/pretty in lingerie, i tried getting into it when i was like 18-20 but it always felt uncomfortable and costumey on me, i think it's cute on other people but i'm a boyshorts + no cups or wires gorl and i feel cute when im comfy 😌
"Bitch what the fuck" 😂 almost fell from my chair 😂🙏
😭 caught off guard
I love your channel because I can see other videos of the same topic and scandal but your views and videos have so much more information in depth, I love that you use big words and you spoke out about VS pink brand
i always love the education you give me, and all your inputs. i try to share your every single videos bc i believe we can all learn from them. love your work so much!!!! 💗
When I was younger I pronounced lingerie the way it’s spelled (lingery) and all the adults laughed and went “it’s lawn-sheray” like why are you laughing at me it’s not my fault I can read
Same thing happened to me when I was like 9, lol ugh
I heard it spoken before I ever read the word, I thought people were trying to make "laundry" sound all fancy lol
You and Jordan Theresa released a video on the same day, on the same topic! I love it! It's good to get different perspectives and you both put some much work and research behind your videos.
loveeeee your look in this video omg! The pink, the hair with barrette, make up on point! Also the content
Love you so much Mina! Your work is outstanding, I really appreciate how much effort you put in the research for each video you make 🧡 Always a treat when you upload!
The last time I went into a VS it dawned on me that most of their products are designed around guilt tripping women into fitting into their unrealistic ideal. Flat chested? Here is enough padding to jump ship on. Large chested? Lack luster bras ( if they even have your size) or don't shop here. It never was a " let's find you something comfortable" scene
Yep. I’m pretty flat and the last time I went to VS I had to beg for the sales girl to tell me where the comfortable bras were. She kept insisting that I needed a padded push up so I could feel sexy. I didn’t want to feel sexy, I wanted a bra that fit so I wouldn’t be uncomfortable all day working at the office.