Nothing better than spending a Saturday morning arguing about who's more jacked! I must say however that Milo didn't play fair; by revealing that he hated Paris, he made himself immediately likable to me, greatly impairing my impishness. Outside of that, great debate, one that the community will greatly benefit from. Thanks for hosting this Alex!
Haha I couldn't agree more! Much love NH, this debate was the perfect conclusion to all the responses. Thanks again for doing this, as the source of this hot topic.
Made me jump out my skin cuz the bald giga chad is also named Paris🤣 why would the noble natties hate such a huge contributor to the community lmao. they are just frenchmen hating Paris
Was an honor to host, thank you Milo! This discussion was packed with nuanced takes that really got me thinking. I know the viewers will feel the same way.
Tbf, Milo is pursing the competitive builybuilding physique where shoulders matter more. He has probably chosen not to emphasize them any more than that for competitive reasons, though I personally think big arms are cooler.
Excellent discussion, thank you for hosting this Alex and your inputs were very valuable to. 13:20 I'm glad NH started off with questioning the '80-90% of the gains of BB' figure, as that was exactly what caused me to raise my eyebrow in Milo's initial statement and IG post. 15:36 True, and I have lived this myself. When I finished 14 years of PL, I didn't have good arms. Not only that but I didn't even have the practical knowledge of how to build big arms because that had never been my focus. It took years to learn and apply and build a good set of arms. Any lifting endeavour is a journey, and you have to live that journey fully if you want to excel. 22:06 But this is a problem with powerbuilding, we can't just leave it undefined because the more you define it the closer it becomes to either PL or BB and that IS the practical application. So this rebuttal does not hold up. 37:20 Does seem like it's theoretical musings vs practical outcomes. What happens in theory vs practice, theory doesn't always pan out. 50:06 This is one of the (many) good things coming out of the low vol/high intensity community which is very prevalent here in the UK, and has been for decades. It gets people focused on progression, form and intensity and away from just dossing around. 1:12:55 Lol!
80% might make sense if we're talking about total volume of muscle..glutes, quads, chest, etc are the largest muscle groups 80% of how you look might be different story
@@slee2695 man it's really very little extra fatigue to just add an arm day to even a full powerlifting program. Most of the top IPF/USAPL lifters nowadays have jacked arms too from some accessory work.
And with this completely unexpected debate, a great war among naturals has ended peacefully, living in harmony happily ever after. Really enjoyed this Alex!
It's kind of obvious that powerlifting and bodybuilding are entirely different endeavors and attempting to blend them just leads to doing both badly. Furthermore, powerbuilding was created by powerlifters because they needed it if they didn't want to look weird as fuck. Bodybuilders don't need powerlifting at all. The SBD can be entirely ignored. And I'm saying all this as an SBD strength enthusiast.
@@anonemoose102 you absolutely can, the only thing is if you wanna be the best you can potentially be, specificity is what's gonna ultimately matter the most
I do agree but I also would add I don't think any competent powerlifter are doing only SBD all year round. All powerlifters will do accesories (not just variations of sbd) not just because they want to not look weird but also stuff like a larger upper back or stronger triceps will help improve their SBD. I would argue that all powerlifters are actually diet powerbuilding lol.
@@anonemoose102 for sure. Especially if you get a body part to an aesthetic level you're happy with. For example, my legs are a genetic strong point. They don't need to be any bigger (at this moment with the context of my upper body). This gives me a great opportunity to focus on strength. Something I've been working on with getting my squat numbers up. Just because I want to get strong at that.
I think NH's point about how he judges bodybuilders based on their arms was the most important in the whole debate. Yes, the chest, the glutes, quads, etc. grow pretty darn well from the powerlifts, even with sub-par programming. But to grow the arms, it takes a stupid amount of grit and consistency. And quite frankly, I feel that THIS is where these science guys fail. They are a bit too sciencey with their arm training, and it shows. They are too smart for their own good, and their bias against anecdote is the source of their downfall.
This Milo guy looks like he has skinny bones. He's small, doesn't lift heavy weight and it shows. He has tons of training on the smith machine at all doing shitty movement patterns. His forearms look like a teenagers'. Taking this guys advice will keep you small.
@@TCGdp He posts videos of him atg barbell squatting 365 lbs for reps. If you're gonna make shallow arguments at least know what the basic facts are lol
Yes , it pissed me off a little bit the smirking that Milo made when NH mentioned the arms being neglected in "powerbuilding" like if its something that doesn't matter just because some bodybuilding judges arbitrarily decided torso and waist ratio is more important and the rest doesn't matter. Getting big arms is really grindy and takes allot of time.
Tbh I was expecting a video review, not a debate having both of them. This was crazy cool man. Your channel is top notch. This discussion is crazy exciting too man.
Great debate, really enjoyed this video. I’m suprised the basement bodyybuilding anecdote didn’t come up tho, where people who powerbuild and do the big lifts subconsciously start widening their grip or legs to get better leverage on these lifts to lift more, causing artificial progress
@@deansheppard1104 it was a solid debate. Most points covered. There are a handful of things I’d add, but nothing I haven’t covered in my content already so I don’t plan on making a response or a follow up.
This fucking debate has gone on for too long and is being taken far too seriously by everyone involved and I'm somehow here for it. Time for the popcorn.
I really felt the part in which NH talks about bodybuilding being part of our existence and criticizing modern productivity and meritocracy aspects and how they can take away our passions.
44:00 I highly agree with NH here. I don't like bench press and that's why I don't do it, but there's too much peer pressure into doing it (friends that go with me and the like). The bench press is amazing but I just don't enjoy doing it. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of dips and I couldn't live with them. I don't know why, I just feel like a Chad doing dips. I'm not even impressed by the quality of the debate, because it was expected from such gentlemen. It was a real debate, where they both tried to understand each other's position and actually present a great middleground for we, the viewers. It wasn't a silly fight, just a great conversation. Thanks, dude, the podcasts, IMO, are one of the greatest parts of your channels: you always present interesting people with interesting ideas and ask interesting questions that add to the knowledge someone already has.
Great video. Really resonated with the point about "being led astray" by the dogma of the 2010s when I started lifting. Starting Strength, GOMAD, Bulking - awful stuff, wasted 5+ years of my lifting career easily. Damn "powershitters" (as they're jokingly called online) trying to get everyone to join them, so they feel better chasing some arbitrary numbers and eating as much as they want 😂No hate on powerlifting people though, but for those with similar background/experience as me (and there's a lot of us), you know what I mean. What I always wanted was closer to what NH preaches, and thankfully over time I moved towards that style of lifting.
+1 for making this a semi-regular thing with the "roundtable" suggestion. Maybe once every 2-3 months to ensure you don't run out of things to discuss.
The biggest takeaway Was seeing how Milo's posteriorly pelvic tilted dips have more ROM and scap movement than Alex's anteriorly tilted hips. Yes we can debate powerbuilding but the execution of dips matters more to me!
You can clean up the definition of powerbuilding as much as you want but in practice, powerbuilding will start to resemble one side or the other I think Dr. Wolf’s opening statement still misses the point
Fantastic debate. Honestly I was kinda done with the topic, and only clicked cuz Alex hadn't uploaded in a while, but I'm gad I watched this highly informative and productive discussion.
I have to applaud NH for making for such a good opponent, but Milo is just unstoppable. He has gone head to head with Dr. Mike Israetel so you know he's to be reckoned with. Overall this was way more civilized than expected but that's to be expected since it's two chads talking. You were a great host Alex, and thank you on behalf of all of us for making this happen.
Alex you need to do an interview/conversation with Natural Gallant Bodybuilding the man needs more recognition also it would nice conversation with Tanner Shuck.
Do you plan to interview Natural Gallant Bodybuilding? He's been preaching partial reps as THE WAY since the start of his natural bodybuilding channel. Do you know of him?
Liked before watching! Perfect timing cause I’m honestly about to run a power building block lol. Thanks Alex, NH and Dr. Wolf! I think it’s definitely important to first figure out what each persons goal is. Some may want a mix of both pure strength and hypertrophy. Some may want to do a few heavy sets to maintain strength in off-season while focusing more on hypertrophy. Some like me want to have both optimized at the same time which is not fully compatible- but I’m also not a competitor and thus do not need to fully dive into either side hypertrophy or strength. But I can see why as advanced athletes will not have much more neural adaptation simply focusing just on heavy lifts to get stronger but just need some volume to accrue more mass for longer term strength gains. I think powerbuilding can certainly be used as a tool to dabble in both “arenas”, but there are times when pure focus on strength vs hypertrophy is needed based on short term and long term goals
I love how milo said doing Hypertrophy work with one single mixed in thats exactly what powerbuilding is, i bodybuild but sometimes i feel like doing a max effort single on bench or squat. It feels good, it helps in feeling confident with all lighter weight. It primes my nerves and has so many benefits and still people say that thats ineffective and will make me miss out on gains😂😂 doing 3x10 after one single every now and then will definately not affect anything negatively
There is no benefit because that work costs your recovery, recovery that could’ve been saved for exercises for more reps. There is no way to go around that.
Sorry, but Milo's powerbuilding will maximise 80%-90% of your hypertrophic gains claim is pure bs. Which is funny, since it's a random subjective number he made up, despite being the 'science guy'. If a training method gurantees weak point arms, forearms, abs, calves etc, it doesnt even reach 50% hypertrophy needs imo. These muscle groups are vital in most real life situations and will greatly diminish the aesthetics of your physique. Unless you are starving yourself to unhealthy levels and posing in thongs for other men on stage, you will look very underwhelming in normal life interactions lol
There’s no reason to follow powerlifting principles to max your strength. Real strength (not arbitrarily changing your execution of a lift to move more weight) is fundamentally just neurological adaptation
Contrary to what Milo said here he does use click bait in his videos. He had a video reviewing NH’s training and in the thumbnail was a picture of Milo holding his head next to the words ‘the worst yet?!’ Although in the video he did agree with most all of NH’s training. Which means the thumbnail was completely dishonest and even hurtful. I obviously hate click bait and anyone who uses it instantly loses my respect. I think as UA-cam viewers we need to call out those who will say anything to get the clicks. UA-cam will be a much better place without that kind of nonsense. End of rant. Sorry 😆
Am i the only one getting Condescending vibes off of Milo toward NH (when tbh i expected the opposite lol) , he keeps throwing Jabs toward NH to imply that : "I am the Smart Science guy and u're just a cave man who's living in a Basement" . haha No hate tho but i am just getting that vibe that's all
Top-notch content worthy of the noblest of natties. I will admit I am biased as powerbuilding has served me well and I love the combo of heavy compounds and high volume work.
your experience take at around 28mins is all one needs to understand what needs to be done to when trying to break ones own perceived limits and not be dogmatic. Don't be scared to swith it up.
This is how all fitness debates should be held. With respect, consideration, personal viewpoints each shared equally and differences brought to the table for all too hear and see.
Finally! The much-awaited debate. I’ve been eagerly waiting for this since the start of this discourse. It’s super awesome to see that you’re hosting the debate. Thanks to all you guys for taking the time to do this. I’m certain that it’s going to be very insightful and informative!
The video is very well structured. Both Dr. Milo and Natural Hypertrophy arguments are very solid and sound. Really loved listening to their perspectives and experiences. Their knowledge is quite valuable and important. Really appreciate Alex for sharing his experience as well as conducting the debate in such an amazing manner. Absolutely brilliant work. Thank you so much for sharing this great discussion!
I mean I’m not a big fan of NH bcs the stuff he says sometimes is absurd, but judging by his size compared to Milowolf, it’s pretty clear who’s word is more believable
Great! I really wished to hear your thoughts about this a couple weeks ago, thought you passed on the debate. Glad you made a long video, can't wait to watch already.
Powerbuilding also works for me because as alex said he had lagging arms due to it but im arm dominant i already have 16" arms in under 1.5 years of lifting but my chest and back used to lag so having some focus on bb rows. Bench, Dl and SLDL really helped
My problem with it is something like Jeff Nippard teaching a huge arch in your back during bench for hypertrophy. There's no range of motion and no stretch. It's cool if you want to powerlift or powerbuild, but don't act like partial ROM bench or squats and deadlifts are ideal for hypertrophy.
Not trying to put down dr milo down at all he did a great job putting his point across in this debate and I like him as a person but if you take a look at his physice you can clearly see why combining powerlifting and bodybuilding fundamentally is flawed. One is a sport where the lift is specialized and the most important thing, the other is a way to develop certain muscles using different lifts. To a bodybuilder the bench isnt any more special than a bizeps curl and the same effort have to be applied to both. Getting back to dr milo he has huge quads in particular but his arms are almost non existent in my opinion a powerlifter shouldnt be judged on the way his physice looks and a bodybuilder shouldnt be judged on who strong he is at a certain lift because both practices have a different goal. In my opinion based on these factors combining them wont produce the desired outcome many young lifters have.
@@watsonkushmaster3067 I know and that is where I dont fully understand his practices because he doesn't programm like a bodybuilder would if you want to gain muscle than you have to focus your programm to that goal which I dont think milo does considering his glaring weak points that likely occurred because of his involvement in strengh
8:10 . I disagree with Milo here , doing low reps is just has good for hypertrophy has high reps , what changes between a powerlifter and a bodybuilder is technique and tempo , low vs high reps is a matter of exercise selection more then anything else ( I think both Milo and NH agree that doing deadlifts for 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps is bad the same way that doing 1 rep maxes on something like a cable lateral raise is equally has bad ). 13:39 Agree with NH here , it happened to me that I was trying to get a big bench ( because I also wanted a big chest ) and I sacrificed my total volume on chest exercises ( stopped doing dips , cable and dumbell flies ) to be able to bench press more frequently ( went from doing 5-7 working sets a session for chest 3 times a week to only 2-4 sets each session 4 times week of of which all sets were bench press ) and even tough I managed to increase my 1 rep max on bench ( with awful technique mind you ) my chest didn't grow much relative to my biceps and lats for example ( which were trained properly ). 25:29. This is very true , 1 rep maxes are gonna impact the rest of the program , especially if you do them every week which is really overkill even for powerlifters ( and this is without taking into account deloads and other factors which if you are not doing you are not maximizing strength, this will only lead to mediocre results on both strength and hypertrophy) 25:25 Milo has a good point here , has a concept "powerbuilding" can work , but we also need to look at how it is applied in real life. 37:40 Good point by Milo has well , hypertrophy will have an impact on your strength , and this is what happeneds when you take a more hypertrophy focused routine compared to strenght but we can all agree is definitely gonna be slower if one was to focus on pure strenght again. 47:31 Completely disagree with Milo here , arguing "powerbuilding" is good because it keeps confused normies in the gym motivated is a very bad argument, you can make the same case for crossfit ( and I will be the first to make a video saying that this sport is an absolute scam and abomination) 50:31 Same point has above , this is not a topic worth of conversation, people who have no idea what they are doing 2 years into the gym don't watch none of the channels here ( especially NH , let's be real here ) , if we are gonna have fitness influencers then you better give good advice to people who are actually serious about this and not Cather to people who skip the gym 9 out of 10 times ( what does people need is consistency ). I waited a long time for this debate and I'm disappointed in both NH and Milo here. For NH honestly you weren't French enough on this debate , Milo completely agreed with you here , your initial points weren't challenged and this debate was pointless , you should have capitalized on this , Milo didn't argue that 1 rep maxes are good for hypertrophy and admited that powerbuilding is not optimal for hypertrophy compared to a pure bodybuilding program , meaning that the only part that he disagreed with was your click bait title. On Milo side you basically demonstrated that your channel is completely useless to anybody who is above beginner level, your information is good but you are not giving new information to any serious lifter who is serious with his training. This whole powerbuilding drama was a complete waste of time and you NH completely disappointed me for not pointing this shit out , you should have empathized your 3 points.
25 mins in I think we get the point, they both agree PB is submax for hypertrophy. The premice is that NH has subjective aesthetics standards (arms) that don't correlate with how Bodybuilding is judged (X frame). Every argument stems from there.
Cycling in periods of 5x5 training (or some variation of it) with 'accessories', was always useful for me to move strength upwards. I've never seen someone who does heavy dips who isn't bulky. Moving up bench press 'numbers', which is just progression, is perfectly legitimate. Again you see very few people who can move a heavy BP (or close-grip version) who have no triceps. Though a lot of people who do isolation movements with stick arms. Also the trad view that strength gains precede size gains seems to still hold true.
The problem with powerbuilding is that you get obsessed with chasing your one rep max, while you strictly must stay to minimum 5 reps with the appropriate weight. Watching your one rep max getting higher is instant gratification compared to watching your physique change.
I love how yr accent makes you sound like you are about to say some super misogynist bro shit but i love yr mindset way of training and especially yr openness to new ideas. First saw u with dr mike and following ever since
An interesting discussion indeed but in the end I think we can all agree that the best approach to getting AND looking strong is the right ratio of compounds+variations of them and more targeted isolated work. It's funny, I consider my approach to lifting a kind of powerbuilding but I find myself agreeing more with NH who has called it an abomination. I agree that someone who is in it more for physique than strength should tap into variations of exercises sooner than a powerlifer that has more to gain from specificity, and that it is often the arms that lag behind when you come at your lifting from a powerbuilding approach. I've tried to balance strength and physique since I got into lifting and find my physique mostly balanced but if there's anything that lags behind, it is indeed the arms. Thanks for hosting this debate Alex 🙏
Hey Alex, love your videos ! Can you make one on programming for strength training just like your video "The Simple Way To Build Muscle" ? That would be really appreciated because I want to start lifting heavy again and I realised after watching your videos that I'm a total beginner in programming and all that. Again, really like your videos, they're really informative and I learn a lot from them as a newbie gym enjoyer.
I think they're both right and also kinda missing the point, powerlifting, if done right is already "powerbuilding". Seldom do you find a good powerlifting program now days that doesn't have a bunch of accessory work with bodybuilding parameters to work hypertrophy. A bigger muscle is a stronger one. Also I think "powerbuilding" is a bit of a marketing scheme, at the end of the day the only real difference is changing training parameters to milk neurological adaptations and technical efficiency of the big 3. I lean on NH side on this one he has by far the most logical points.
Good discussion.. although I personally don't think the hypertrophy similarities between powerlifter/powerbuilders and bodybuilders are 90%. As Milo mentioned, it's 80-90% similar. 80% sure, 90% seems bit of a stretch because when I see people from these discipline the difference is quite noticable.. if it was 90% it wouldn't be as evident. I believe Alex mentioned how compound can lead to around 70% of growth. So 70-80% similar results seems more likely.
30min in and they haven´t mentioned a concrete training Plan. IS 5x5 Powerbuilding or Strength Training ? Is 5 31 powerbuilding ? Is training a phase of strength and then a phase of bodybuidlign powerbulding ? IS the hatfield holistic trainign powerbuilding ( 2 x 4-6 , 2x 8-12 , 2x 15-20)? IS powerbuilding chosing a few exercises that fit oneself good for strength ( Just like doing them, ahve a good feeling , pump with heavy and ligth weights ) and chosse isolation exercises for the rest that dont get hit well with the compound strength exercises ? Does a powerbuilder sets of 1,2 or 3 reps ? Is 5-8 reps powerbuilding or is this bodybuilding ? and so on :D
I didn’t have a title for it and didn’t realize people were denying its effectiveness, but I can tell you right now, I had a very effective training routine that I created utilizing: 5/3/1 programmed strength training on the front-end of my workout followed by Y3T (also known as Yoda-3-Training) by Neil Hill. They work perfectly with each other and the third week of the cycle was always the toughest because it combined my heaviest 5/3/1 lifts with extremely high volume, slow-twitch fiber activation training (3rd week of Y3T). Fourth week was de-load and training whatever exercises and whatever rep-ranges I wanted to do other than avoiding anything heavier than 8 reps TF / max wt. I recommend this. It made me the most athletic I’ve ever been but not necessarily the biggest I’ve ever been. Did 225 on flat bench for 17 reps at 162lbs. Squat & DL were each 400+.
Alex: 🗿
NH: 🗿
Milo: 🗿
@GrugBigstick 🗿
Perfect comment
Honestly
Nothing better than spending a Saturday morning arguing about who's more jacked! I must say however that Milo didn't play fair; by revealing that he hated Paris, he made himself immediately likable to me, greatly impairing my impishness. Outside of that, great debate, one that the community will greatly benefit from. Thanks for hosting this Alex!
Haha I couldn't agree more! Much love NH, this debate was the perfect conclusion to all the responses.
Thanks again for doing this, as the source of this hot topic.
Nothing unites people more than their hatred of Paris
Made me jump out my skin cuz the bald giga chad is also named Paris🤣 why would the noble natties hate such a huge contributor to the community lmao. they are just frenchmen hating Paris
i thought by hating paris you meant bald omni man for a sec 💀
LOL YES SAME
Thank you for having me, Alex! It was a productive discussion.
Was an honor to host, thank you Milo! This discussion was packed with nuanced takes that really got me thinking. I know the viewers will feel the same way.
sumo is cheating 🤣🤣
@jumbo9386 imagine sucking yourself off this hard
link?@jumbo9386
@jumbo9386 poast fizeek
Great organization and flow of this video, Alex. It was very listenable and engaging.
And remember train on time
Holy crap, this is HUGE. The fact you organised this is crazyy
Was a mutual effort, couldn't have done this alone!
Milo's arms are a testament to NH's point
Yeah I think this should be clear to everybody
Exactly
Tbf, Milo is pursing the competitive builybuilding physique where shoulders matter more. He has probably chosen not to emphasize them any more than that for competitive reasons, though I personally think big arms are cooler.
You sure? skip to 13:21, NH's arms started to look "small" and similar to Milo
@@thanos7469nope. NH’s arms still look big there.
Can we get a Jason Blaha vs NH debate?
Non-negotiable
Non-negotiable
We need Coath’s ubermensch opinion on powerbuilding and lunch lady mode
I think we need a "Revival Fitness & Bloho" collab ...
Alex doesn't have enough bitrate to handle coaths size right now
bro is not bigger than NH
The guy look very tall compared to others, but also low bodyfat uncertain
ok skip to 13:21, NH started to look similar to Milo Wolf
He is. NH is just closer to the camera. Classic influencer trick.
@@Cynthia_Blackraven_666 nh is def bigger than milo lol no matter what
NH is 6 foot 218 pounds. Way bigger. Milo is shredded but a shrimp. Prob weighs 175 soaking wet
Damn, Alex stepping in as the big bro of natural community wasn't something I knew I needed
I'm blessed to be part of such a powerful community
You helped make it bro
@ErgBerg1998might be GVS
Alex has been on youtube forever
@ErgBerg1998
Alex must be older. He stated back in 2017 that he was born in 1991
Excellent discussion, thank you for hosting this Alex and your inputs were very valuable to.
13:20 I'm glad NH started off with questioning the '80-90% of the gains of BB' figure, as that was exactly what caused me to raise my eyebrow in Milo's initial statement and IG post.
15:36 True, and I have lived this myself. When I finished 14 years of PL, I didn't have good arms. Not only that but I didn't even have the practical knowledge of how to build big arms because that had never been my focus. It took years to learn and apply and build a good set of arms. Any lifting endeavour is a journey, and you have to live that journey fully if you want to excel.
22:06 But this is a problem with powerbuilding, we can't just leave it undefined because the more you define it the closer it becomes to either PL or BB and that IS the practical application. So this rebuttal does not hold up.
37:20 Does seem like it's theoretical musings vs practical outcomes. What happens in theory vs practice, theory doesn't always pan out.
50:06 This is one of the (many) good things coming out of the low vol/high intensity community which is very prevalent here in the UK, and has been for decades. It gets people focused on progression, form and intensity and away from just dossing around.
1:12:55 Lol!
Thanks for sharing your inputs Faz!
80% might make sense if we're talking about total volume of muscle..glutes, quads, chest, etc are the largest muscle groups
80% of how you look might be different story
Faz the wise.
@@slee2695 man it's really very little extra fatigue to just add an arm day to even a full powerlifting program. Most of the top IPF/USAPL lifters nowadays have jacked arms too from some accessory work.
405 Bench Press at 185 body weight is truly incredible
Who cares if you don't look big? Are we talking powerlifting here?
The debate we all needed. Thank you alex.
It was an honor to be the host for this hot debate!
@@AlexLeonidas Couldn’t have asked for a more nuanced host as we’ve all seen you dabble in both strength and hypertrophy with such an open mind.
And with this completely unexpected debate, a great war among naturals has ended peacefully, living in harmony happily ever after. Really enjoyed this Alex!
It's kind of obvious that powerlifting and bodybuilding are entirely different endeavors and attempting to blend them just leads to doing both badly. Furthermore, powerbuilding was created by powerlifters because they needed it if they didn't want to look weird as fuck. Bodybuilders don't need powerlifting at all. The SBD can be entirely ignored.
And I'm saying all this as an SBD strength enthusiast.
Agreed
Would you say you could still choose one with a slight emphasis on another (ex: bodybuilding but also care about general strength emphasis)
@@anonemoose102 you absolutely can, the only thing is if you wanna be the best you can potentially be, specificity is what's gonna ultimately matter the most
I do agree but I also would add I don't think any competent powerlifter are doing only SBD all year round. All powerlifters will do accesories (not just variations of sbd) not just because they want to not look weird but also stuff like a larger upper back or stronger triceps will help improve their SBD. I would argue that all powerlifters are actually diet powerbuilding lol.
@@anonemoose102 for sure. Especially if you get a body part to an aesthetic level you're happy with. For example, my legs are a genetic strong point. They don't need to be any bigger (at this moment with the context of my upper body). This gives me a great opportunity to focus on strength. Something I've been working on with getting my squat numbers up. Just because I want to get strong at that.
Guess my next cardio session is going to be running a little bit longer than usual. Can't wait.
This is legit the most good faith debate i had ever seen,good job Alex!
I think NH's point about how he judges bodybuilders based on their arms was the most important in the whole debate. Yes, the chest, the glutes, quads, etc. grow pretty darn well from the powerlifts, even with sub-par programming. But to grow the arms, it takes a stupid amount of grit and consistency. And quite frankly, I feel that THIS is where these science guys fail. They are a bit too sciencey with their arm training, and it shows. They are too smart for their own good, and their bias against anecdote is the source of their downfall.
This Milo guy looks like he has skinny bones. He's small, doesn't lift heavy weight and it shows. He has tons of training on the smith machine at all doing shitty movement patterns. His forearms look like a teenagers'. Taking this guys advice will keep you small.
@@TCGdp He posts videos of him atg barbell squatting 365 lbs for reps.
If you're gonna make shallow arguments at least know what the basic facts are lol
Yes , it pissed me off a little bit the smirking that Milo made when NH mentioned the arms being neglected in "powerbuilding" like if its something that doesn't matter just because some bodybuilding judges arbitrarily decided torso and waist ratio is more important and the rest doesn't matter.
Getting big arms is really grindy and takes allot of time.
@@ProphetFearWhy are you dickriding lmao dude has a tiny torso and small arms. If you can't see that get your eyes checked
When you look at Milo’s arms, his arms are small so that is already enough evidence
The viewers were the real winners in this debate. Great video man
Really good editing with the B-Roll of training footage
Thank you brother, spent many hours synching everything up!
Tbh I was expecting a video review, not a debate having both of them. This was crazy cool man. Your channel is top notch. This discussion is crazy exciting too man.
Great debate, really enjoyed this video. I’m suprised the basement bodyybuilding anecdote didn’t come up tho, where people who powerbuild and do the big lifts subconsciously start widening their grip or legs to get better leverage on these lifts to lift more, causing artificial progress
Yea that would’ve been a good addition to the theory vs practice discussion.
Are you gonna make a response/add on to the discussion type of video ?
I'm really curios to know what you think about the debate overall
@@deansheppard1104 it was a solid debate. Most points covered. There are a handful of things I’d add, but nothing I haven’t covered in my content already so I don’t plan on making a response or a follow up.
Somewhat unexpected but absolutely necessary to get a nuanced view of both sides among the recent debates, thank you for facilitating this!
This fucking debate has gone on for too long and is being taken far too seriously by everyone involved and I'm somehow here for it. Time for the popcorn.
Lmao ain't that true!!
Powerbuilding is this still the topic of the month?
this topic will come back after 30 years when no one remembers youtube)
I was thinking throughout all this powerbuildig arc 'what would alex's response be?' and as expected the king delivered the best possible answer!
Great initiative Alex! Finally a style of debate that will stop dividing the community.
Ended on a positive note!
So happy to see this. Great discussion.
I really felt the part in which NH talks about bodybuilding being part of our existence and criticizing modern productivity and meritocracy aspects and how they can take away our passions.
44:00 I highly agree with NH here. I don't like bench press and that's why I don't do it, but there's too much peer pressure into doing it (friends that go with me and the like). The bench press is amazing but I just don't enjoy doing it. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of dips and I couldn't live with them. I don't know why, I just feel like a Chad doing dips.
I'm not even impressed by the quality of the debate, because it was expected from such gentlemen. It was a real debate, where they both tried to understand each other's position and actually present a great middleground for we, the viewers. It wasn't a silly fight, just a great conversation. Thanks, dude, the podcasts, IMO, are one of the greatest parts of your channels: you always present interesting people with interesting ideas and ask interesting questions that add to the knowledge someone already has.
You can't have this opinion unless you at least bench 225. Do you bench at least 225?
@@bruhmeme7313 THIS IS THE COMMENT I NEEDED. THANKS, bruhmeme7313
@@bruhmeme7313ur not allowed to prefer a lift unless u hit a certain strength standard?
Great video. Really resonated with the point about "being led astray" by the dogma of the 2010s when I started lifting. Starting Strength, GOMAD, Bulking - awful stuff, wasted 5+ years of my lifting career easily. Damn "powershitters" (as they're jokingly called online) trying to get everyone to join them, so they feel better chasing some arbitrary numbers and eating as much as they want 😂No hate on powerlifting people though, but for those with similar background/experience as me (and there's a lot of us), you know what I mean.
What I always wanted was closer to what NH preaches, and thankfully over time I moved towards that style of lifting.
+1 for making this a semi-regular thing with the "roundtable" suggestion. Maybe once every 2-3 months to ensure you don't run out of things to discuss.
The biggest takeaway
Was seeing how Milo's posteriorly pelvic tilted dips have more ROM and scap movement than Alex's anteriorly tilted hips. Yes we can debate powerbuilding but the execution of dips matters more to me!
I can’t believe I didn’t caught this video on release, gonna be a good watch
You can clean up the definition of powerbuilding as much as you want but in practice, powerbuilding will start to resemble one side or the other
I think Dr. Wolf’s opening statement still misses the point
you here?
did you take a barbell with you?
Yet you're intermediate in both powerlifting and hypertrophy
The entire time watching this, I couldn't help but think of the saying, "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they differ."
Milo is not bigger than nh tf
yeah very weird way to start off
Yes, he was clearly being serious there, no humor involved whatsoever 😉
@@Kili42joke is only valid if it's true.
Would actually love to see this happen again, love the idea of the round table being somewhat regular
Fantastic debate. Honestly I was kinda done with the topic, and only clicked cuz Alex hadn't uploaded in a while, but I'm gad I watched this highly informative and productive discussion.
Thank you Alex! You continue to elevate the natural community with this kind of content, much appreciated.
I have to applaud NH for making for such a good opponent, but Milo is just unstoppable. He has gone head to head with Dr. Mike Israetel so you know he's to be reckoned with. Overall this was way more civilized than expected but that's to be expected since it's two chads talking. You were a great host Alex, and thank you on behalf of all of us for making this happen.
Holy shit I haven't been this excited for a video in a long time, this will definitely be a good watch
Great job, Alex, and kudos to your guests for a collaborative conversation that was enjoyable and informative.
i wasn't expecting this, being your stance has been made pretty clear over the years.
time to strap in and watch!
Alex you need to do an interview/conversation with Natural Gallant Bodybuilding the man needs more recognition also it would nice conversation with Tanner Shuck.
Do you plan to interview Natural Gallant Bodybuilding? He's been preaching partial reps as THE WAY since the start of his natural bodybuilding channel. Do you know of him?
Liked before watching! Perfect timing cause I’m honestly about to run a power building block lol. Thanks Alex, NH and Dr. Wolf!
I think it’s definitely important to first figure out what each persons goal is. Some may want a mix of both pure strength and hypertrophy. Some may want to do a few heavy sets to maintain strength in off-season while focusing more on hypertrophy. Some like me want to have both optimized at the same time which is not fully compatible- but I’m also not a competitor and thus do not need to fully dive into either side hypertrophy or strength.
But I can see why as advanced athletes will not have much more neural adaptation simply focusing just on heavy lifts to get stronger but just need some volume to accrue more mass for longer term strength gains.
I think powerbuilding can certainly be used as a tool to dabble in both “arenas”, but there are times when pure focus on strength vs hypertrophy is needed based on short term and long term goals
I love how milo said doing Hypertrophy work with one single mixed in thats exactly what powerbuilding is, i bodybuild but sometimes i feel like doing a max effort single on bench or squat. It feels good, it helps in feeling confident with all lighter weight. It primes my nerves and has so many benefits and still people say that thats ineffective and will make me miss out on gains😂😂 doing 3x10 after one single every now and then will definately not affect anything negatively
There is no benefit because that work costs your recovery, recovery that could’ve been saved for exercises for more reps. There is no way to go around that.
Sorry, but Milo's powerbuilding will maximise 80%-90% of your hypertrophic gains claim is pure bs. Which is funny, since it's a random subjective number he made up, despite being the 'science guy'. If a training method gurantees weak point arms, forearms, abs, calves etc, it doesnt even reach 50% hypertrophy needs imo. These muscle groups are vital in most real life situations and will greatly diminish the aesthetics of your physique. Unless you are starving yourself to unhealthy levels and posing in thongs for other men on stage, you will look very underwhelming in normal life interactions lol
There’s no reason to follow powerlifting principles to max your strength. Real strength (not arbitrarily changing your execution of a lift to move more weight) is fundamentally just neurological adaptation
Contrary to what Milo said here he does use click bait in his videos. He had a video reviewing NH’s training and in the thumbnail was a picture of Milo holding his head next to the words ‘the worst yet?!’
Although in the video he did agree with most all of NH’s training. Which means the thumbnail was completely dishonest and even hurtful. I obviously hate click bait and anyone who uses it instantly loses my respect. I think as UA-cam viewers we need to call out those who will say anything to get the clicks. UA-cam will be a much better place without that kind of nonsense.
End of rant. Sorry 😆
Am i the only one getting Condescending vibes off of Milo toward NH (when tbh i expected the opposite lol) , he keeps throwing Jabs toward NH to imply that : "I am the Smart Science guy and u're just a cave man who's living in a Basement" .
haha No hate tho but i am just getting that vibe that's all
L Powercopers
W Content
A debate between Paul Carter and Milo would be great.
debate is cool and all but boxing would be much more fun fun for the masses
The debate I never thought would happen. LET'S GO
Top-notch content worthy of the noblest of natties. I will admit I am biased as powerbuilding has served me well and I love the combo of heavy compounds and high volume work.
your experience take at around 28mins is all one needs to understand what needs to be done to when trying to break ones own perceived limits and not be dogmatic. Don't be scared to swith it up.
This is how all fitness debates should be held. With respect, consideration, personal viewpoints each shared equally and differences brought to the table for all too hear and see.
Finally! The much-awaited debate. I’ve been eagerly waiting for this since the start of this discourse. It’s super awesome to see that you’re hosting the debate. Thanks to all you guys for taking the time to do this. I’m certain that it’s going to be very insightful and informative!
The video is very well structured. Both Dr. Milo and Natural Hypertrophy arguments are very solid and sound. Really loved listening to their perspectives and experiences. Their knowledge is quite valuable and important. Really appreciate Alex for sharing his experience as well as conducting the debate in such an amazing manner. Absolutely brilliant work. Thank you so much for sharing this great discussion!
Great video. Been following Dr. Wolf and NH for years. Both of them are great sources of lifting. Milo and Pak’s podcast is fun.
I mean I’m not a big fan of NH bcs the stuff he says sometimes is absurd, but judging by his size compared to Milowolf, it’s pretty clear who’s word is more believable
Man. Is it Christmas already? Dope intro Alex!
Great! I really wished to hear your thoughts about this a couple weeks ago, thought you passed on the debate. Glad you made a long video, can't wait to watch already.
Powerbuilding also works for me because as alex said he had lagging arms due to it but im arm dominant i already have 16" arms in under 1.5 years of lifting but my chest and back used to lag so having some focus on bb rows. Bench, Dl and SLDL really helped
Back in my day to end an argument, youd just comment :
"Post physique"
I would love for you Alex to drop a follow up video where you comment on this debate and lay out your stance on everything that've been said
The debate of the year. A very productive debate 🐂🐴🐂
Oh shit! this is like lifters court with the undisputed king of natties as the judge 😱
Looking forward to this!!
Lots of detailed arguments that will get you thinking!
This is the discussion I was looking for. But now that we got this , we need the Full RoM Vs Lengthened partials. Why make my life more complicated 😭
yo not to be an ahole but milos arms are stick thin, not that im huge but like, this guy said that NH arms werent that big in his review video
Yeah he has pencil arms and massive legs lmao seems to be disproving his own point.
My problem with it is something like Jeff Nippard teaching a huge arch in your back during bench for hypertrophy. There's no range of motion and no stretch. It's cool if you want to powerlift or powerbuild, but don't act like partial ROM bench or squats and deadlifts are ideal for hypertrophy.
From what I remember Jeff nippard didn’t recommend that big of an arch, I think he said just a moderate arch is best, I could be wrong tho.
oh shit here we go
It's a juicy debate, enjoy!
Not trying to put down dr milo down at all he did a great job putting his point across in this debate and I like him as a person but if you take a look at his physice you can clearly see why combining powerlifting and bodybuilding fundamentally is flawed. One is a sport where the lift is specialized and the most important thing, the other is a way to develop certain muscles using different lifts. To a bodybuilder the bench isnt any more special than a bizeps curl and the same effort have to be applied to both. Getting back to dr milo he has huge quads in particular but his arms are almost non existent in my opinion a powerlifter shouldnt be judged on the way his physice looks and a bodybuilder shouldnt be judged on who strong he is at a certain lift because both practices have a different goal. In my opinion based on these factors combining them wont produce the desired outcome many young lifters have.
But he is strictly bodybuilding...he even said it in the video
@@watsonkushmaster3067 I know and that is where I dont fully understand his practices because he doesn't programm like a bodybuilder would if you want to gain muscle than you have to focus your programm to that goal which I dont think milo does considering his glaring weak points that likely occurred because of his involvement in strengh
@@Natural.Crusader i agree, he literally has mild spider physique unless he's intentionally going for that look
Once again, the noble natties brought balance to the force.
8:10 .
I disagree with Milo here , doing low reps is just has good for hypertrophy has high reps , what changes between a powerlifter and a bodybuilder is technique and tempo , low vs high reps is a matter of exercise selection more then anything else ( I think both Milo and NH agree that doing deadlifts for 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps is bad the same way that doing 1 rep maxes on something like a cable lateral raise is equally has bad ).
13:39
Agree with NH here , it happened to me that I was trying to get a big bench ( because I also wanted a big chest ) and I sacrificed my total volume on chest exercises ( stopped doing dips , cable and dumbell flies ) to be able to bench press more frequently ( went from doing 5-7 working sets a session for chest 3 times a week to only 2-4 sets each session 4 times week of of which all sets were bench press ) and even tough I managed to increase my 1 rep max on bench ( with awful technique mind you ) my chest didn't grow much relative to my biceps and lats for example ( which were trained properly ).
25:29.
This is very true , 1 rep maxes are gonna impact the rest of the program , especially if you do them every week which is really overkill even for powerlifters ( and this is without taking into account deloads and other factors which if you are not doing you are not maximizing strength, this will only lead to mediocre results on both strength and hypertrophy)
25:25
Milo has a good point here , has a concept "powerbuilding" can work , but we also need to look at how it is applied in real life.
37:40
Good point by Milo has well , hypertrophy will have an impact on your strength , and this is what happeneds when you take a more hypertrophy focused routine compared to strenght but we can all agree is definitely gonna be slower if one was to focus on pure strenght again.
47:31
Completely disagree with Milo here , arguing "powerbuilding" is good because it keeps confused normies in the gym motivated is a very bad argument, you can make the same case for crossfit ( and I will be the first to make a video saying that this sport is an absolute scam and abomination)
50:31
Same point has above , this is not a topic worth of conversation, people who have no idea what they are doing 2 years into the gym don't watch none of the channels here ( especially NH , let's be real here ) , if we are gonna have fitness influencers then you better give good advice to people who are actually serious about this and not Cather to people who skip the gym 9 out of 10 times ( what does people need is consistency ).
I waited a long time for this debate and I'm disappointed in both NH and Milo here.
For NH honestly you weren't French enough on this debate , Milo completely agreed with you here , your initial points weren't challenged and this debate was pointless , you should have capitalized on this , Milo didn't argue that 1 rep maxes are good for hypertrophy and admited that powerbuilding is not optimal for hypertrophy compared to a pure bodybuilding program , meaning that the only part that he disagreed with was your click bait title.
On Milo side you basically demonstrated that your channel is completely useless to anybody who is above beginner level, your information is good but you are not giving new information to any serious lifter who is serious with his training.
This whole powerbuilding drama was a complete waste of time and you NH completely disappointed me for not pointing this shit out , you should have empathized your 3 points.
I think it mostly exercises selections. Both do high and low reps.
Yeah that was my point has well
Boom
25 mins in I think we get the point, they both agree PB is submax for hypertrophy. The premice is that NH has subjective aesthetics standards (arms) that don't correlate with how Bodybuilding is judged (X frame). Every argument stems from there.
great podcast. props to everyone involved.
Cycling in periods of 5x5 training (or some variation of it) with 'accessories', was always useful for me to move strength upwards. I've never seen someone who does heavy dips who isn't bulky. Moving up bench press 'numbers', which is just progression, is perfectly legitimate. Again you see very few people who can move a heavy BP (or close-grip version) who have no triceps. Though a lot of people who do isolation movements with stick arms. Also the trad view that strength gains precede size gains seems to still hold true.
I knew there was gonna be a gentleman's debate but damn! Alex as the host is a nice surprise!
Fantastic Job Alex. Terrific discussion
The problem with powerbuilding is that you get obsessed with chasing your one rep max, while you strictly must stay to minimum 5 reps with the appropriate weight. Watching your one rep max getting higher is instant gratification compared to watching your physique change.
I’m 20 minutes in the video and when I saw the B rolls of Dr Milo, I saw some of the spider physique in his physique as his arms are not that big
When reality meets expectations. Great job brother
The powerbuilding guy has small arms
Buckle in brahs this will be a good one
I love how yr accent makes you sound like you are about to say some super misogynist bro shit but i love yr mindset way of training and especially yr openness to new ideas. First saw u with dr mike and following ever since
An interesting discussion indeed but in the end I think we can all agree that the best approach to getting AND looking strong is the right ratio of compounds+variations of them and more targeted isolated work. It's funny, I consider my approach to lifting a kind of powerbuilding but I find myself agreeing more with NH who has called it an abomination. I agree that someone who is in it more for physique than strength should tap into variations of exercises sooner than a powerlifer that has more to gain from specificity, and that it is often the arms that lag behind when you come at your lifting from a powerbuilding approach. I've tried to balance strength and physique since I got into lifting and find my physique mostly balanced but if there's anything that lags behind, it is indeed the arms. Thanks for hosting this debate Alex 🙏
The depth of NH's arguments surprised me!
Hey Alex, love your videos ! Can you make one on programming for strength training just like your video "The Simple Way To Build Muscle" ? That would be really appreciated because I want to start lifting heavy again and I realised after watching your videos that I'm a total beginner in programming and all that. Again, really like your videos, they're really informative and I learn a lot from them as a newbie gym enjoyer.
I literally thought the 1st dude had me listening at 1.25x
Dog me too I was so confused.
I think they're both right and also kinda missing the point, powerlifting, if done right is already "powerbuilding". Seldom do you find a good powerlifting program now days that doesn't have a bunch of accessory work with bodybuilding parameters to work hypertrophy. A bigger muscle is a stronger one. Also I think "powerbuilding" is a bit of a marketing scheme, at the end of the day the only real difference is changing training parameters to milk neurological adaptations and technical efficiency of the big 3. I lean on NH side on this one he has by far the most logical points.
Now this is what I wanted for Christmas! Thanks Alex!
Good discussion.. although I personally don't think the hypertrophy similarities between powerlifter/powerbuilders and bodybuilders are 90%. As Milo mentioned, it's 80-90% similar. 80% sure, 90% seems bit of a stretch because when I see people from these discipline the difference is quite noticable.. if it was 90% it wouldn't be as evident. I believe Alex mentioned how compound can lead to around 70% of growth. So 70-80% similar results seems more likely.
This guy has God level shoulder mobility 7:22💀
Grabbing my popcorn for this one 😂
holy shit what a drop
You already know!
30min in and they haven´t mentioned a concrete training Plan. IS 5x5 Powerbuilding or Strength Training ? Is 5 31 powerbuilding ? Is training a phase of strength and then a phase of bodybuidlign powerbulding ? IS the hatfield holistic trainign powerbuilding ( 2 x 4-6 , 2x 8-12 , 2x 15-20)? IS powerbuilding chosing a few exercises that fit oneself good for strength ( Just like doing them, ahve a good feeling , pump with heavy and ligth weights ) and chosse isolation exercises for the rest that dont get hit well with the compound strength exercises ? Does a powerbuilder sets of 1,2 or 3 reps ? Is 5-8 reps powerbuilding or is this bodybuilding ? and so on :D
always knew this was going to end wholesomely. Milo and NH had natural enemies, no reason for strength and hypertrophy enthusiasts to be torn apart
This is such a wholesome discussion! Three kings honoring each other!
I didn’t have a title for it and didn’t realize people were denying its effectiveness, but I can tell you right now, I had a very effective training routine that I created utilizing:
5/3/1 programmed strength training on the front-end of my workout followed by Y3T (also known as Yoda-3-Training) by Neil Hill.
They work perfectly with each other and the third week of the cycle was always the toughest because it combined my heaviest 5/3/1 lifts with extremely high volume, slow-twitch fiber activation training (3rd week of Y3T).
Fourth week was de-load and training whatever exercises and whatever rep-ranges I wanted to do other than avoiding anything heavier than 8 reps TF / max wt.
I recommend this. It made me the most athletic I’ve ever been but not necessarily the biggest I’ve ever been.
Did 225 on flat bench for 17 reps at 162lbs. Squat & DL were each 400+.