More Horsepower and Better Fuel Economy with a "Diesel Tune?"
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
- Episode 3 of Question of the Week has a subscriber asking if they can get better fuel economy and horsepower at the same time from custom tuning their engine? We also discuss the efficiency of Diesel Trucks compared to cars and motorcycles. AdeptApe@yahoo.com on PayPal for donations and questions.
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Thank you for picking my question on your channel Josh. Love the math break down and knowledge you shared on this. Also thank you to all the other people who commented on this. I'll be doing more digging and will update with what I do. Thank you again Josh for all your knowledge on Cat engines and teaching!!
Maybe go watch some of the recent Tim Gentry videos
I have seen an increase in fuel economy by upping horsepower in a C-15 MBN powered log truck (lots of off road and adverse conditions). It was rated at 525hp stock. I took it to a guy who specializes in CAT engines and had him upload a CAT 700HP C16 tune. I was immediately able to climb hills at least two gears higher and it would climb like a boss at 1400-1600 RPM instead of having to rev it out to 1800-1900 (two or three gears lower) on the mountain passes. My EGTs were also much more manageable probably because I went from 28psi boost stock to 42psi post tune. The truck gained over .5 MPG. My understanding is that I was able to run the truck in a much more efficient RPM range regardless of the terrain (less total engine revolutions to overcome a particular hill). Horsepower is just torque multiplied by RPM so if you an run the engine at a lower rpm and make the same horsepower you had at a higher rpm previously you will be ahead. Hope that makes sense!
Checkout Pittsburgh Power. They just tuned my 06 Pete and I have the exact same engine and horsepower rating you do. I run under less-than-ideal conditions as a car hauler. Lots of idling when you're loading and unloading and zero aerodynamics along with every load bringing you up to at least 80000 lbs. They've been around for a very long time and are very reputable. The only people that touch my engine are Caterpillar or Pittsburgh Power. They can do a remote tune for you just call them.
The best thing for an electronic Cat is to download Australian software. I had an 06 set at 475 and 1850 torque. I had a guy turn it to 600 hp and 2050 torque. Even pulling 84,000 through Oregon I could get 5.9 mpg. Before that the best I could get was 4.8. Plus he advanced the timing
@@johnbishop1911 hell yea...mind sharing his info...i also have an 06 t600
Nice video and great topic. I will throw my 2 cents in and see if we can help your subscriber. First off my back ground. I’m a retired owner operator that had specialized in time sensitive and temperature controlled transport to and from Alaska year round.
I will use my 2013 Western Star 4900EX as a comparison truck. Truck specs: DD 16 600hp 1850 ft/lbs 18 speed and 3:25 gears. In my operation that truck averaged 5.5 mpg over 370,000 miles.
I’m a numbers guy and watched fuel economy on every trip since that was my biggest expense.
I worked with Bully Dog and I ran a 20% tune. Truck was run on chassis dyno at Western Star dealership with and without tune. Stock was 525hp to the rear wheels and 649hp with the tune. 1850 went to 2400 ft/lbs. I gained .5 mpg in my operation, but I was always the slowest truck up the hill. I drove for fuel economy. Tuner and dyno $4000. Fuel savings $7000-10000 Dollars per year depending on fuel cost.
My recommendation is get all service up to date, run over head and make sure no charge air cooler leaks exist. Then get an APU and shut main engine down when parked. Install block heater and oil pan heater and run those of the APU to keep engine warm. Also the Carrier APU was plumbed in the cooling system to circulate coolant through truck engine. I did that in Alaska and would shut my engine down to negative 25 at night. When I started the main it would show 100 degree coolant temperature and drop to about 70 after moving coolant through the engine. I also used a Webasto Diesel heater to supplement the heater of the APU to keep the 82” sleeper warm.
The subscriber runs in the worst conditions and the only way to save fuel is to shut the truck engine down. Also winter fuel will probably cost him at least .5 mpg in fuel economy. I used to drop .8-1.0mpg in the wintertime due to open lug traction tires and winter fuel.
I hope this helps and all makes sense. Good luck and keep the shiny side up.
First off bud your hp was not to the rear wheels it was a corrected hp as crankshaft. No way in hell a crankshaft rated 525 is putting 525 to the road. This is where the billy big rigger comes in and starts with the bs. Anybody that has run any diesel truck in the transportation industry and is honest will tell you that 6 miles to the gallon is good mpg. Cats generally get 5.5 to 6.5 mpg. Physics tells us that more hp uses more fuel. Running higher hp and claiming you are more efficient by running lower rpm is joke. What the teller is here is that you are still flat on the floor pulling a grade no efficiency there. The tuners are selling a service and will tell you anything to get your money. Then billy doesnt even check his fuel mileage just starts telling everyone he is getting 9.5 mpg 😂😂😂😂😂😂 BULLSHIT
Open lug traction tires...? Never put that into mind tell I read this... Interesting
Just from experience, when the c-15 went to sequential turbos and Acert, they lost mileage over the previous 3406e for example. Most were in the 4 mpg range for just average use which should have been 6ish. I think it had to do some with Cat trying to meet emissions standards and trying to get there without using EGR.
We did that calculation in the 70s during the fuel crisis with regards to a school buss and a Datsun. But instead of weight we looked at how many students each could move per gallon.
I'd think the students preferred pushing the Datsun over the school buss. Side bar... been a long ass time since I have thought about Datsun.
In South Africa back in the day before USA semis pulled out of our country between 2013 and 2016. We got the International 9800i with Cummins isx with 450 or 500hp and the Freightliner Argosy with options of Isx 500 or 530, Detroit 60s, and C15 before Cat pulled out of trucking industry all with eaton Autoshift 18 speed and 4.89 rear end.
Trucks here also pulling loads of 80 000 pounds in most intense terrain you can imagine. I have been to USA to drive semis and you cannot compare to here.
My father and I specialize in Cummins we have managed to tune up isx engines by doing overhead settings on injectors and engine brake and changing features and paramators on the ecm and on the transmission ecu. The result giving more it power to pull up the hills quicker and keeping shifts between 1500 - 2000 rpm. Where as before it was at 1000-1500rpm. Owners were getting better fuel milage and doing more loads because they were getting to there destination quicker.
Even though we don't have software for Detroit and Cat we could still change the transmission settings from economy to heavy haul application and that made quite a difference in shifting and pulling.
We did an experiment and took an ecm from an International 475 and went to cummins and told them it was from a freightliner and we asked them to uprate the power to 530. We then put the ecm back on the International and BOY did that move.
So the quicker you can get up the hill the less you engine has to work. That's what we have found here.
I do this math for people all the time and so many people get all upset with me when I show them that a properly tunned non-emissions complaint 80,000 truck is vastly more fuel efficient for the work actually being done.
Sad fact of reality is our common vehicles get horrible fuel mileage because it generates huge tax revenue for the government.
That is possibly the best answer to that question I've ever heard. As a Cummins Tech at a dealer myself I've found myself on the spot having to answer that loaded question. The best answer I could ever muster was leave your truck alone. Great information here hopefully more people will see this and stop asking.
Thanks for discussing this topic! I've got a first generation 250hp 3126 in my RV that I had pondered the upgrade to a higher HP rating and decided against it since it would take years before I would see the cost benefit versus leaving it alone. While it doesn't like to move down the road at much more than about 65mph, it will do it all day long and come back for more - which means more to me!
3126 is a damn good engine ,, i have a medium duty GMC tow truck with a 3126 and it's been flawless with well past 300K miles on it with only minor repairs in the almost 6 years i have owned it ,,i wish i had been able to find one when i built my RV toter truck ,it ended up with the cummins equivalent actually taken from a wrecked RV ,,an 8.3 it has under 200K on it still coupled with an 8 speed allison transmission originally , since changed to a 9 speed manual i like the fact it's equipped with an exhaust brake i tow a 44ft 5h wheel with a custom built pace arrow tow vehicle ,,,originally a 1984 pace arrow motorcoach
0:16 Want to improve your mileage... don't idle. Want to keep equipment warm... Espar heaters. You're not listening to the experienced guys in the field. You want the answer to be more power.
I'm from North Dakota myself. I'm guessing he is being hurt on fuel mileage by just what you said. Sitting and idling or high idling in below zero temps. Lots of low speed on gravel roads. Lots of stop and go (relatively speaking). Before he starts changing the tune or anything, he really needs to see what it does at, say 60 or 65 mph for at least a few hundred miles with little or no wind. Wind in North Dakota is a huge factor that can drastically affect fuel mileage.
It sure can, running 94 I could get 4 One way and 10 on the way back lol
Wind is major factor! I see it at the pump on every run. Cheers!
Josh, I was an engineer who used to tune engines for an OEM. Mostly gasoline engines but dabbled in diesels some. I'd make a couple comments. First, you're right that by increasing horsepower by itself you wouldn't get better mileage. It comes down various aspects of the tune, especially injection timing (which impacts the engine similar to ignition timing on a normal gasoline car). You can see significant benefits from that, but it'll also increase combustion temperatures and pressures which can have negative impacts.
However, one of the other things that injection timing impacts is emissions - and even on the engines that were pre-DEF, pre-DPF, pre-EGR (take your pick), there was still a period with some level of NOx requirements (highly tied to combustion temperatures) and there were some aspects of the tune related to that.
If you'd be interested in doing a collaboration video talking about efficiency (I've spent a good sum of effort improving my 3126) I'd be glad to.
The tuning I have seen improving HP and fuel economy did not considered the EPA limits. Having worked for a diesel engine manufacturer I know the pressure put on the engineering team to meet regulations…It all the time limit the maximum performance an engine can reach. Good video’s
True, kind of like EGR and scavenging effect CO and NOX in relationships to fuel.
I'm a retired Engineer who back in the 60's and 70's used to follow racing until it all the cars basically became identical. So I switched over to watching efficiency competition to see what ideas people have. The Shell eco-marathon is probably the most noted of efficiency competitions and there are some trends that are not practical for everyday but are interesting. This is really designed for College, Technical Schools and High Schools with small budgets. Most entries highly modify a very small engine with ball bearing cranks and electrically pulse oil spray to the bearings much like a turbine and the fuel injection pressure is as high as possible. Anything to remove "parasitic energy use". These guys will get like 4,000 mpg but like you show the vehicles are extremely minimal and light weight. The University of Nebraska used to test farm tractors and rated them with Horse Power Hours / Gallon. The old John Deere long stroke two cylinder diesels had the highest value at like 18 horsepower hours per gallon. There are some Caterpillar crawlers in this competition but this was many years ago. Maybe Caterpillar Corporate should submit an entry into the Shell eco-marathon (mainly for advertisement and to attract gear head type Engineering Students). 🤨
By the same token Minneapolis Moline tractors have long stroked 4 and 6 cylinder engines that are pretty impressive too.
I used to run my 550 loaded heavy running local, light to light. Average 6 Mi to the gallon. It all has to do with the operator and right pedal. Keeper in the RPM range an easy on the throttle. That's it. I ran a Pete 379 with a 575 cat and averaged eight miles to the gallon with it. Pulling 30,000 lbs. As long as you keep them on the north side of the torque curve it around 1450 rpms they're very fuel-efficient engines......
I've seen similar results. I just figured it was because of spent less time lugging up hill or getting up to speed.
One thing that may help him to reduce fuel usage is a heater to keep the coolant temp warm so you do not need to keep idling. Artic Fox is one I have seen used, it will heat the coolant and pump it through the engine so you can keep the engine warm and heat the cabin using less fuel than idling does. They are not cheap and it would take a while to see the savings but not idling your engine for hours a day is a big benefit not just in fuel savings. A horse power boost and torque increase could get him in a higher gear but it will hard on the drive train if driving conditions are rough. Thanks for the video Josh.
that's what an APU is for
Dude's getting killed by his idle time. A standby engine that generates electricity and cycles coolant can burn as little as a quart an hour would be my first upgrade, as well as keeping the harmful idle hours on the primary engine low
Emissions compliance is not about saving the environment. It's about tax revenue to be had by making use burn more fuel to do less and spend more on BS that doesn't help make anything better in the long game.
The oil industry as a whole only makes about 15 to 20 cents per gallon off fuel it sells whereas the government gets multiple times that in tax and regulatory kickbacks from it from the well to your fuel tank. Big oil itself would love to sell us all half the fuel at twice the price because it would be great for the bottom line.
The problem is that big government won't have it due to the lost tax revenue. This is why big oil gets billions in government kickbacks to keep them happy and not rock the taxation boat.
Hope the crack was worth it.
Why. You having second thoughts?
I have seen an increase in fuel economy by upping horsepower in a C-15 MBN powered log truck (lots of off road and adverse conditions). It was rated at 525hp stock. I took it to a guy who specializes in CAT engines and had him upload a CAT 700HP C16 tune. I was immediately able to climb hills at least two gears higher (18 speed) and it would climb like a boss at 1400-1600 RPM instead of having to rev it out to 1800-1900 (two or three gears lower) on the mountain passes. My EGTs were also much more manageable probably because I went from 28psi boost stock to 42psi post tune. The truck gained over .5 MPG. My understanding is that I was able to run the truck in a much more efficient RPM range regardless of the terrain (less total engine revolutions to overcome a particular hill). Horsepower is just torque multiplied by RPM so if you an run the engine at a lower rpm and make the same horsepower you had at a higher rpm previously you will be ahead. Hope that makes sense!
One of my favorite adept ape videos to date. I've heard that kind of a math breakdown about how efficient trains are at moving mass, but for some reason ive never seen this put so well about the efficiency of semis. so cool.
I had a 475 acert updated to 550 crappy mileage and power. Rerate was done with a platinum overhaul. 3.8-4.5mpg. Single turboed it and a custom 625 wheel hp tune and got 6.2mpg. Have ifta reports to verify the mpg.
To keep the numbers in perspective run them for a train and a ship. :)
On a side note, a lot of smaller Diesel engines benefit from tunes because the original tunes are meeting emission standards that are often in conflict with peak efficiency. Enjoy the videos! Thanks
Yea but you can run into issues with these ones that bump the timing up because I've seen a powerstroke getting its mains and rods turned into aluminum powder from the piston hammer effect
Tru story on the new ⛽️ diesels
I believe what Lou was asking was not to be paying over a dollar per mile in fuel costs.
I looked at a Cummins graph for the n14 engine and it to is not linear: they only burn 1.1 gallons of fuel per hour at 700 RPM but it goes up to 3 gallons per hour at 1,000. A D13 Volvo I drove once said it burned 1.32 1.4 gallons per hour at its high idle of 800 RPM.
And if this guy's in cold temperatures and not fast idling his truck, I can almost bet he's losing operating temperature which means the fuel mapping is going to richen the mixture.
Freightliner manual and cumins manuals state that in severe conditions the service intervals shorten. For example: a regular schedule oil change for a over-the-road or might be 300 hours or 60,000 miles. And severe conditions of cold or dust or urban density driving, 250 hours is the interval and there is no mileage specification.
Assuming a $5.00 a gallon diesel fuel price: A truck that gets five miles per gallon and drives 500 miles per day will consume 100 gallons of fuel and $450.00.
Now add about 11 gallons burned while idling overnight for 10 hours and now it costs almost $550.00 for those same 500 miles as generally softball trucks are stationary when idling overnight. Now you're at over $1 per mile and fuel cost. Take this over 250 day working year and this can really add up specially the higher the price per gallon.
Excellent video. The concept of how much mass is being pushed around is often overlooked when mileage is discussed. Fun fact, if my calculations are correct, a typical diesel RR locomotive can move 1000 pounds 900 miles on a gallon of diesel. That's important with freight trains weighing 40,000,000 pounds or more. Cheers!
The best solution to this question is: start calculating the fuel consumption by engine hours, not by distance.
My example is an Iveco Trakker 3-axle dump truck. When I calculate the fuel consumption by l/100km, the number is pretty high, because that truck does not go on long distances. When calculating by engine hours, the number is closer to reality.
I had a local semi-retired cat mechanic re rate my 2000 Peterbilt C15 to 600 from stock 550. The truck had just nicely been broken in after complete over haul. Now I only have 20000 miles on it so far but WOW did that ever wake that truck the F up. It feels like it pulls twice as hard . Single turbo boosting to 40-45 lbs. Not sure 😕 it helped milage but wouldn't consider going back to the way it was .
Oh and I'm regularly pulling 138000 lbs . 62500 kgs
There're a lot of variables to consider to get better fuel mileage and it's isn't just: "tune the ECM" or whatever else people say.
Everthing depends on working conditions, from type of surface you get (pavement, dirt, mud, irregular, ...), inclination (how much, in which condition, ...), air (temperature, pressure, humidity, oxygen level, pollution,...), how much weight, what wheels ans tyres you're rolling on, differential, transmission gears and the most important piece that makes the whole lot of difference independently if it's stock or custom and tuned; the piece known as the ape behind the driving wheel (a lot of mileage difference comes from that and the knowledge of how to behave considering rpm, torque and HP in what conditions).
To be honest you can have the same truck, with the same load and conditions and have completely different mileage depending on the driver. That's even on nice interstate roads within the safe limits of loads and speed! A CAT truck engine or a Cummins, running ~600 HP, no emissions crap, even in an old "square" Pete 379 or a 389 can easily make 5-5.5 mpg average within 80,000 lbs limit with standard use from flatbeds loaded with construction and industrial material (usualy closer to the weight limit more often), even going 60+mph considering speed limits across interstate (outside CA obviously), which is not very efficient in terms of mileage for trucks (up to 50-55mph in highways can be efficient but not in time and money).
Good demonstration of efficiency based on weight moved. That's exactly why trains are more efficient than trucks and why ships are even better than trains. Most people think of fuel efficiency in terms of how much fuel they have to buy and how often instead of how much work was done on a tank of fuel.
Back in the day, "Mr. Haney" did pretty good tunes on the Cat engines. We built a 5EK for a customer with his tunes, and a PDI manifold, turbo, and aftermarket intercooler. 550 packs, cam, etc. Ran fantastic- a little TOO fantastic for the driveline. The DS404 decided it hated life going 80mph on the way to Laramie grossing 80k. We found another 379 with D46's and swapped over, along with bumping up to SPL250. Then the RTLO16918 said goodbye. 22918 it is!
Last I knew, it was still happily cruising along, coming due for a 4-million-mile in-frame, but in the hands of a more responsible OO.
If memory serves, it was supposed to be a 600hp tune. I never asked for specific economy numbers, but he said a few times that he was "happy". Of course, this was over a decade ago, and I was waaaaay more green then.
Josh your video from 4 years ago came up next in my feed and covers this subject very well also. Title is "How To Get Better Diesel Fuel Efficiency. Increase Your Diesel Mileage And Economy"
Maybe you could get Cat to work with Banks Power and spend time at Banks shop in California during winter tuning a Cat engine. I know not likely as they are not building new onroad in North America. But that would be a fun video series.
No destruction? Great video all the same. In my world of older bus engines 6v92 8v92 they say larger injectors will improve MPG sometimes by allowing you to stay in that lower RPM and generate power more efficiently.
I am impressed with this video. you did not flat spit out the Cat redbrick they want you to not do. thank you Josh for being honest.
i do have a good idea of how the custom people are getting the HP and mileage. now this is only a idea (grin) trimming and changing the timing as point in the power band.
and before any one cry's no i will not give hints as to who or the real how.
but in this case doing this kind of work if you are looking for mileage stop idling and install a Green apu .
I've always run synthetic oils and I gained 0.3 mpg when I switched to Amsoil, running between Brawley, California and Hunts Point in the Bronx, it works but it's also more expensive
The component missing is Break Mean Effective Pressure which effectively is a formula to compare how powerful and efficient an engine is whilst ignoring displacement and RPM.
My understanding is that these diesel tunes basically allow for a much leaner burn at medium engine loads which improves the BMEP. The reason they aren't like that from the factory is that it absolutely SKYROCKETS NOX formation. This was part of the dodgy tunes VW had on their diesels which made them perform really well and sip fuel. It was only possibly by not adhering to emission limits.
It seems that pre SCR commonrail engines are able to get the most out of these kinds of tunes because of their fine control of fueling and not having to worry about screwing with any adblu system.
You could theoretically do this with an SCR system but you'd have to either undermine the SCR system so that it doesn't break down all the NOX or tune the SCR to consume way more adblu.
The answer is yes get a tune. Oil field work is tough especially if you are running a PTO. Every cat engine i have seen has a sweet spot gearing plays a big roll but speed also does. Try everything said above but get someone in the truck to tune it for maximum efficiency tell them where you drive at 1300-1700 seems to be the sweet spot for my accert. We fixed it single turbo it and she leaves everything with constant idle gets 5.3-5.5 most days. Its at 73mph
I’ve heard of guys converting Acerts two single turbo set ups and going from 5.5 to 7 mpg. If it was me, I would look into a variable geometry turbo.
They did in fact make them inefficient on purpose, the main way people change a tune to get better fuel economy is changing the NOX settings. More air will always help, but it can also spike NOX from raising combustion temperatures and getting a more complete fuel burn.
If used responsibly a higher power tune, including the cat factory 550, can improve fuel economy by staying in a more efficient gear at a lower rpm. The reason companies don’t program trucks to 700 hp to save fuel is because if it’s used in an irresponsible manner it can also waste far more fuel then the lower power tune. If you can keep the loose nut behind the wheel from wasting diesel a tune can absolutely help with fuel economy. of course this depends on the tunes available for a particular engine, the HP is irrelevant if your chasing fuel economy as you want to be down in the torque curve. Volvo as an example offers multiple tunes that all have the same peak torque, and only limit the high RPM HP to keep drivers from wasting fuel while still giving it all the low end torque it needs to improve fuel economy.
The math thing was a great explanation! Never thought of it that way
Josh hasn’t went to the dark side. Luke tuning is your father. To tune you really must know your components and what they’re capable of. That’s a slippery slope but managed correctly better than sliced bread. With the higher hp it’s all about umph or ease to keep the turbo pressure down and most efficient rpm range. Takes a lot of restraint to do that. Josh needs to look into the evolution of horsepower and where we are now. They changed there mind a lot. Kind of like forecasting the weather.
Preached it as gospel.
C15 6NZ. 2002. Last in frame done by Cat in 2017.
I run a 9 axle outfit. Stacked up 6 mpg. Loaded 140,000 - 170,000 lbs gross app 3 give or take.
I took a 670 John Deere excavator minus boom & counterweight from Tacoma WA to Edmonton AB, route was directly into Canada then over the Coquihalla highway to Kamloops, Valemount & east to Edmonton. 850 miles. 165,000 lbs gross it still did 3.
Had my NSX Acert tuned by Pitsburgh Power to 600, Installed the Steed Speed Manifold and Fleet Air Filters and I've gained 2 mpg as long as I drive it respectively.
I'm pushing 3:36 rears through an 18 speed double overdrive. If I run in direct at 55 mph @ 1425 rpm I can average between 6.5 to 8.5 mpg. Running single over "17th gear" @ 57 mph and 1375 rpm cuts my average back a bit.
I've heard by changing my rears to 2:64's that I can bump my road speed in direct "16th" and increase fuel economy considerably.
Worth a shot!
There are a few really good tuners out there, guys that really know cats inside and out. Guys that I have no problem sending my ecm. There's also guys that don't know shit but just happen to have CAT ET and some files
Factory tuning is designed to work in all conditions and with acceptable results over an average sample of motors. Aftermarket tuning remaps the fuel injection events and timing to raise efficiency, but at the cost of more NOX emissions. Later engines may physically be more efficient thru new technology but may have less power to meet NOX requirements.
I have a 're-map' as we call it in the UK, on an agricultural tractor. It was 167hp, 1063lb/ft and 193hp, 1203lb/ft with boost as standard. It is now 189hp 1211lb/ft and 229 1410lb/ft. The fuel efficiency has went up massively on road work with heavy loads, approx 40,000lb and over. This engine has excellent cooling from factory. Peak hp is coming in around 1900 rpm with all tunes and torque at 1400 rpm approximately. The gearbox is the weak link in this system, however there is now a lot less gear changes needed so I've been told it will even out the wear. The engines previously were tuned for emissions and this is really where the economy is found. The engine torque and hp curves are almost identical in shape on all tunes. This engine lugs better but is not like the older mechanical fuel injection units.
As a few others pointed out, gal/h might be the better metric to go for over mpg. Assuming they're running a tanker, there's a lot of time where the truck is idler at around 1k rpm to run the pumps on the trailer to load/off load. My opinion would be to look into reducing the run time in the winter where possible. An apu that circulates the engine coolant or a diesel block heater would be good investments for the extended period of down time. I'm working at a water depot and when things get busy it gets common to see 2-8 trucks waiting in line to pull up to load water, and it takes around 20 minutes to load, so there's the potential to save an hour of idling if you could keep the engine warm without running it.
fuel mileage is the holy grail of heavy trucking ,,newer engines are way easier to tune than the old stuff like i run ,,one of my personal favorite trucks that i drive like a car is a 1974 GMC astro COE the engine is an old cummins big cam 3 and i can get 14MPG on the highway with 342 rears and an eaton 13 speed and about 9 in town doing stop and go traffic ,,this is actually about the same mileage as my 2001 chevy tahoe ,, i went through it and had the fuel injectors rebuilt , and made sure everything was set to factory specs ,,and i also did something i never see anyone ever do i replaced the factory cast iron exhaust manifold with a custom fabricated stainless steel one ,,with 3.5 inch tubes ,i noticed a much faster spool up of my stock turbo which seemed to help my fuel mileage a lot ,,helping the engine breathe better will always help fuel economy and power
good video. I did math for my 6.7 PS pulling 30000 pounds and i get 330 mph per 1000 on freeway. It drops to 300 on non-freeway pulling. Keep the videos coming. Thanks
When I do tuning for economy typically involves increasing injection timing. Also if it has a variable turbo I will try to adjust the van duty cycle to keep back pressure down if possible. That being said there's always a horsepower hit Now I don't tune class 8 trucks but the other catch to this is increasing diesel injection timing increases cylinder pressures. Sometimes diesel timing will be extremely low for emissions reasons (increased timing typically increases nox output for one) but once can very quickly go too far if something is to be loaded so a towing file and econ file for me will look very different and a pickup isn't hauling near the weight of a class 8 truck. If I had access to a truck and tooling to view the factory calibrations and do Dyno testing I'd be curious if the engineers left anything on the table. They always leave room for safety which is needed and emissions bypassing is obvious problems. That's my two cents
I drove a brand new '06 Pete log truck with a 475 horse ACERT engine and it got 3.5 mpg. After 40,000 miles, if I spent most of the day on relatively flat ground, I got up to 3.6.
There's a place in Effingham IL that tunes cats , good exhaust manifold and good single turbo with the ag tune will help alot
Love from Greeley. Thanks 😊
Yeah…there are a lot of factors.
I liked your MPG per lb. demonstration. Very interesting way to put that into perspective.
As someone else mentioned below, CAT factory tunes are not just optimized for fuel economy. Emissions (NOx) and longevity (cylinder pressure) play a factor. Timing and fueling duration changes theoretically could result in better mpg.
Alot of the time with MPG mods, the placebo effect is a factor (where someone is likely to drive more efficiently when they are looking for increased fuel economy).
Others commented below, you might be able to stay in the peak torque (peak efficiency) band longer with a tune. Especially if it’s a low torque 475 with the 13 speed, an 1850 tune might help slightly in some cases. Guys with 10 speeds could benefit even more. If it were an 18 speed, not so much. This takes the right type of driving though. You can’t keep it sitting in the peak HP range (1700 RPM) all the time and expect to get good fuel economy. Let it pull down to 1200 before downshifting.
As mentioned, speed is a factor (too fast or too slow and your mileage suffers). Idle time destroys mileage very quickly. An APU or Wabasto type heater could help.
Perhaps he has an issue going on (boost leak, low fuel pressure, worn injectors etc.) that could be contributing to low power and poor efficiency. Basic low power checks or a PAR dyno would help answer this question.
Drive for a company that had several C15 ràted at 475 with 105000 gross .They also had an old 94 Pete with 3406E that was apparently set higher..All of us drivers would rather drive the old truck.Fuel mileage was about the same.
What increases economy ( and decreases BSFC - brake specific fuel consumption ) : 1. Advance timing ( >euro4 diesels are focused on NOx emissions and so retards inj.) 2. Increasing CR pressure - increasing atomization of fuel to certain point 3. Increasing a bit boost too more leaner afr - increases also fuel atomization and shortens ignition delay, and increases also combustion pressure.
12.7 Detroit is like one of the most reliable engines around pre emission of course 2002 under
Cut my teeth one , I liked the smoothness and the torque curve 👍
9:09 My 4 axle dump truck with a 6-71 Detroit loudly disagrees with that lol
Everything a6-71 does b Loud af😂😂😂😂😂
You really can't look at this efficiency this way. For example if you drive a car 100 miles and bobtailed the truck 100 miles Josh's numbers would be skewed by quite a bit. But forgetting all that it sounds like the fellow who wrote in does alot of idling and heavy conditions when travelling. Best thing is to let him haul a regular load down the road 100 miles and I bet he finds out he is getting the 5 or 5.5 he is looking for. It is very likely a condition related scenario.
He is looking at it as a point of how efficient it hauls weight. If you took a bobtail peterbilt getting about 5mpg the corolla would be more efficient at hauling the weight. The corrola would get 120mpg per 1000lbs while the peterbilt would get 90mog/1000lbs. He was looking at it as it is more efficient to use the truck to haul 80,000lbs
Should you add the 1000lb chick with purple hair that's driving the Honda civic?
This might be my favorite comment in a long time lol.
Throw her in the trailer and tell everybody you are hauling ass.
She would exceed the passenger and cargo capacity of that car. Not to mention cause abnormal alignment and tire wear. You could make it work though put coil over on the car and do the alignment with her in it L o l.
I feel bad for that Honda Civic
@@sumduma55 a wholatta ass. LoL I hope I'm not the only one that's seen a chick driving a foreign car and from the back you think damn them wheels have to be rubbing a hole in the wheel wells. Or you see em pull up in a parking lot and park. When you walk by there car you notice the left tires are worn smooth out and the right sets brand new. Maybe a Southern thing. To much friend chicken and mashed potatoes.
I really enjoy your videos. I have seen first hand the affects of more horsepower helping to increase fuel efficiency. Oshkosh concrete mixer year 2005 rated 335 horsepower got 2.3 mpg. 2006 and 2007 Oshkosh concrete mixer rated 425 horsepower got 3.3 mpg, now I think 425 or435 is standard.
Josh watch Gentry and sons. It's the last two or three videos with a new piston design, and the guy does ecm tunes. Amazing what they are seeing in fuel and horsepower. Plus, a million mile Detroits
Something you didn't mention was diesel fuel winter blend. Being in North Dakota I'm assuming they do it like we do in central Kansas only on a regular basis because of colder ambient temps. The colder it gets, as we all know, # 2 diesel gels easily. When diluted with #1 diesel, or kerosene, the gel point drops dramatically.
However, it has always been my understanding #1 diesel does not have the power #2 diesel has. I worked for 4 different farmer owned CO-OP grain elevators for 22 years. And the big complaint from the farmers was the lack of power and economy out of their tractors when the super cold weather hit Kansas. The regular winter blend #2 diesel from the refinery was not adequate when the temp dropped to North Dakota temps. All the CO-OP's would dilute the winter blend with #1 diesel to create a 50-50 blend.
There is the argument of the truck having heated fuel tank(s), however the supplier still has to get the fuel out of his bulk tanks without gelling issues, no matter if the bulk tanks are above or below ground. They may be using more than a 50-50 blend. I'm no expert, only 22 years of upset farmer experience, and this was my first thought after seeing this question.
Great channel and I've learned plenty as I'm not a professional mechanic, only the shade tree type who knows not to get in too deep.
Tunes that are done right absolutely can help with fuel milage ! I have proof ! Hot Tunes will not be good for your engine but someone who teally knows what they are doing a tune will help for sure. Idling however will knock down fuel milage no matter what. Need to get a apu unit or even a bunk heater would help you out for those cold conditions ! They also have block heaters as well. Webasto is a hood brand.
As an O/O with the same Chasis Engine. I usually average on a high end 5.5 but more like 5.2. For these numbers I put my cruise on at 70 and I minimize my idling. I use a generator and space heater if I'm staying for a while. For the summer I just plug up a fan.
Making sure your alignment is spot on, clean air filters and 550 tune helps tremendously. Idling will KILL YOUR MPG. Stop n go hurts your mpg. Colder air doesnt help.
Sounds like the idling and stop n go is the biggest issue. Cut down on idling and it may raise him to 4.5.
Part of the problem is the gearing. A 13 spd with 3:55 is a good hwy combo. When it comes to programming the ECM better mapping air fuel management improves performance. Not necessarily more horsepower maybe a side affect of making it more efficient at burning the fuel.
The idea of more hp gives better fuel economy comes down to specific circumstances. With on highway trucks it works, but only with an operator that understands where that engine is most efficient and is able to operate it at that speed. If your engine is most efficient (not most hp or most torque) at 1500rpms, then having more horsepowers available to you just means that you are more capable of keeping it in that sweet spot when you have bigger hills to go up. That's why marine and genset engines have such an advantage. They're literately designed around operating at one single speed.
My translation of this whole conversation is that more horsepower will give you better economy, as long as the driver does their part, and the conditions allow it. Off road conditions, not gonna work. A 300hp log truck is going to get a half gpm better than a 650hp log truck. Put a load of steel on a skateboard and you'll gain 1mpg for being over 500hp.
And a container ship of 150,000t travelling 400 miles in 24 hours consumes 80 tonnes of fuel. That is 6,600 miles per US Gallon per 1,000lbs!!!!
That’s about averages mpg for oilfield work with a lot of idling. Just changing the air filters and oil changes more often will help a lot too.
I have a '95 7.3 powerstroke, put a TS 6position tuner on it. Went from 14mpg to 17mpg on the +100hp tune. While towing I turn it down but just driving the extra HP gets me better mpg. I think it has to due with the injection timing.
There are definitely tuners out there than can tune for more mpg/ more power. It has a lot to do with making use of aftermarket mods and tuning for that like an intake, exhaust, injectors, etc and doing deletes at the same time if your local laws don't stop you. If you live in California for example you can't delete your EGR, and all the extra emissions crap which makes the efficiency and reliability go way down. This is why people do the deletes to begin with. With gas engines I have some experience with tuning, for instance I built my own megasquirt ECU and ran it on a few built turbo/ N.A. cars and it can give you more power and sometimes more mpg depending on driving style, engine type/ displacement, your gear ratios, etc. I think from a decent tune, the appropriate supporting mods, and possibly a different final drive he could see some gains all the way around. The entire rev range should be improved. Even switching compressors and tuning for the larger one would be better. Depends on how much $ you're willing to spend and what you are doing with the vehicle in the end. That's the main reason that you have to way your options. There are things to consider as well, like the higher EGT's with a higher HP tune.
At no point can ANY emissions device be defeated on ANY on road vehicle. End of discussion. EGR increases efficiency.
@@Failure_Is_An_Optionbrainwashed deep state government lackey are you. ???..
P Dee I would like to turn my 04 Silverado 8.1. It's still factory since the day it was new and I only have 150 k on it. I would like to move that 12 miles per gallon on the highway up quite a bit and on the upper part in the upper RPM range increase the horsepower in much as the stock components will allow. I know nothing about tuning or. Do you know if there's any reprogrammer I can buy that would work. I'm an old fart I'm 67. Old School technology I understand really well. I can run a computer fine. I just know nothing about what to get and how to do it.
This is where I work, Williston. I've been there my whole life. I'm mostly working on Cats at a dealership. This area is very hard on equipment. From what I see of the average fuel economy of a truck coming into the dealership, he gets average. Get an Espar heater instead of idling and keep your foot off the floor board
Theoretically you could advance injection time, while not adding more fuel and you will have greater power. The only problem is you may run into problems with high egt's, hard starting in the cold, and also carbon loading when accompanied with long idle hours when cold. I know for a fact this theory works with the old 2 stroke Detroit Diesels, I'd imagine it would work with an Acert as long as you keep it cool.
PS, the above mentioned detroit diesel is a 4-53T in a 9,000lb vehicle that gets on average 26mpg on the interstate
@@joshmarshburn819 GTK 👍🏻
I can speak from experience on this one, Josh. It’s very dependent on the tune itself. There’s a lot of guys out here stealing tunes or reusing tunes that really aren’t very good. They’re not set up for exactly the engine you have and the parts it has in it. If your tune is bad, it will destroy an engine. Lots of guys mess with timing and that can lead to increased cylinder temps and end up blowing head gaskets, cracking heads, etc. As far as mileage goes? Meh. Maybe MAYBE a very slight improvement, but idling is definitely killing this guy. Here in ND, it’s really hard to get mileage when it’s cold as fuck. Best thing the guy could do is put a bunk heater in for when it’s above 10 degrees, that shaves a lot of idle time off and pays for itself within a month or two. Bunk heater is the best thing I’ve ever done for both my trucks and I’m right here in the cold hell with the guy.
All that being said… my 12.7 is putting 550 to the wheels. 👍🏻 Runs great!
I have a converted C15 acert set up at 550hp heavy haul spec in a 379 pete. I normally run at an average of 106k ponds and I get 5.1 to 5.5 mpg. So just by your math I am doing great
Emissions compliance tuning is why everything gets crap fuel milage numbers and breaks all the time now.
There's a reason that when emission compliance regulations came into play in the1960s and 70's every engine manufacturer quietly dropped their #1 bragging point of most HP hours per gallon of fuel consumed.
The sad reality of today is that any given modern diesel in real-world operation conditions has worse HP Hrs/ gallon numbers than an old 2 stroke Detroit of similar power ratings.
If you want to reduce fuel consumption on a DI Diesel engine, ramp up the raill pressure, that will reduce the injection time so you get the same fuel in less time. that means the combustion is faster, making it a more efficient engine due to h8igher peak combustion pressure. Manufacturers cant just go all out, they have to leave some margin of error because EURO bullshit pollution standards whatnot, also for reliability issues. But, we as the user, we can take things a notch further. Power is easy to make, usable power is harder, and efficient usable clean power that's hard!
I've got a topic I'd like to hear you discuss. How low should you run your RPM and what would be considered "lugging " and do you think its hard on engine and drive train
Most CAT guys recommend to stay over 1400 -1450 under heavy load/hard effort. This keeps heat down in the cylinders its easier on the engine. Some guys talk about 10 speeds killing these engines when used for heavy haul/mountains because people tend to lug them and the gear change is too wide. CAT files from the late 90's until now have less timing and fuel in them. The MBN series was pretty bad. Its the same engine as the 6nz minus a few small things but they run very lean and hot. Often resulting in turbo,manifold and other issues. Most people on a 70 pin engine just go to an early 550 brake saver file. It has a little more timing then stock to overcome the brake saver when equipped. Bunch of Facebook CAT forums with information .
I'd go with 4.10 or 4.33 ratio in the rears, that will take a tremendous load off the engine, especially with the line of work he's in. Going with lower gears will take the heavy throttle % out of the equation. He'll notice with the lower gears, he won't be so hard on the throttle to get it to do the same amount of work.
Or could you know not drive an old truck inefficient truck. I drive a 2014 Freightliner Cascadia with a 10 speed manual transmission and a 3.58 rear end ratio and I am getting 7+ mpg. My fuel cost is 20% less than someone running an old Peterbilt getting 5 or 5.5 mpg. Also generally speaking the lower your rear end ratio is the better is for Fuel Economy. Hell my most fuel efficient truck has a 3.07 rear end ratio. If he wants to keep that old truck but he wants higher fuel efficiency then he’s going to need to mod the engine or change out his differential(or both).
Yea and he'll be doing a rebuild that much faster because of the higher rpm at highway speed
I have achieved better fuel economy and more horsepower with a tune. I also have an 06 Pete 379 with a C15 Accert in a car hauler. In stock tuning I have achieved an average of 4.5 MPG for the last 55,000 miles. I also do not drive much over 65 MPH for any length of time. My new average is between 4.9 to 5.3 MPG on a recent trip from Akron to Denver. We'll see how it goes.
if he wanted to increase his mpg, i’d look into one of those hebasto heaters they heat the coolant when the truck is not running sort of like an espar. but it would cut down on the need to idle it which is the big killer. wouldn’t get much better mileage when rolling but simple answer is to cut your idle time.
We have a c15 getting 5-6 mpg. It’s a built engine If I’m correct it’s a msx head bsx block, cam, bosh flow match injectors with custom trim codes also hasc different type of piston. Can’t remember turbo size compressor housing is bigger then exhaust housing. It’s built for high power but running a c15 tune with a few changes.
I ran a n14 with a Pittsburgh power shift on the fly type deal. And if you were bobtail it was funner to drive. But if you were pulling, it just made it smoke and put the egts through the roof.
They did not make the tunes as efficient as possible due to emissions. Can't remember exactly when but in early 2000 they updated the tune files for many engines to "low nox" do a quick search and you should see people talking about how the low nox files drop fuel mileage and sometimes power. It has to do with injection timing not fuel amount. And omg don't get me started on mbn motors with the double injection event worst fuel mileage and super high egtd
Man! I have a 1990 Kenworth W900B dump truck with a 3406B and it gets 10 mpg. And I haul 14-15 tons of gravel with it.
People might see improved milage from being able to run a higher gear. If you can stay in overdrive or even just a higher gear more often it should result in higher mph.
It has to do with load and keeping the RPM within the power range of the engine. Less RPM does not mean more fuel mileage, often times it makes it worse. RPM is not a direct relation to fuel mileage.
@@coltlewis5871 yes it does have a direct relationship, the slower the engine the better the fuel economy provided it has enough torque to do the task. Obviously dropping to low can be damaging to the engine, but it will get better fuel economy till you ruin it. Stay down in the torque curve and fuel economy will be better. This isn’t something that’s even debated by engineers, they are spending fortunes trying to make trucks run at lower and lower rpm’s without causing damage from lugging.
@@jaydunbar7538 It’s difficult to explain in text cuz most people on here like to twist words instead of actually trying to understand the words. But you’re wrong, RPM has no effect on fuel mileage. It takes a certain amount of fuel to make power right? So what does RPM have to do with it?
Running the engine in its torque range, you’re right, I already said that too. Reread if you don’t understand, but I am not wrong.
@@jaydunbar7538 Well I’ll just throw 30 years of dyno tuning and turning wrenches out the window because obviously you know what you’re talking about 🙄. I’d attempt to explain it to you but someone ate all my crayons so I’m unable to draw pictures.
Lower engine RPM does not mean better fuel economy.
Have to DISAGREE with running a higher gear to get better mileage! Find out which gear in your tranny is the DIRECT gear (1 to 1 ratio), 12th in a 13 speed usually. The Overdrive gears are working the engine the hardest. Then find the (sweet spot in the RPM's) every truck is different! The rear gears and tire size determine what the speed will be at. Thats one of the reasons some trucks are running slower than the posted Interstate speed limits is to get the Best MPG and save some $. Owner Operators mostly not the Hourly or mileage paid Drivers. To help get the Best MPG that truck will make is to have a non-leaking charged air to air system, a Turbo-Boost gauge and a Pyrometer with clean air and fuel filters and a free flowing exhaust system.
i loved this. for a few reasons
1. I have a motorcycle that is only 75 is hp but is fast, yet it only gets about 300 kms to a tank (woeful)
2. I had a few Japanese imports (r33 gtst) one had a built rb25/30 and made 440rwkw and a daily rb25 276rwkw and the first thing i was told before building both was to NEVER send my ecu away for a tune, you may as well pull the pin on a hand grenade and sit on it. dudes just want money for trash tunes that kill any motor their on
We have a customer Who had their MXS rebuilt by a cat dealer and complained of worse fuel economy. When the warranty was up we flashed it back to a factory cat pre low nox file and he has his old fuel economy back.
I’m a cat owner, most Detroit 12.7 will go over1 million miles and that is average. Saying shorter life if incorrect.
My only thoughts about improving mpg run to 4x4s. The only improvements that have made a difference have been with air cleaner efficiency, keeping the tappets close to spec. Tire pressures, having these suit the ground conditions and the tread pattern that gives the best compromise between grip and lowest rolling resistance.
Remapping was never an option as the diesel and LPG engines have all been mechanical fuel injection or ignition.
All the best, I hope you find a solution that works for you.
Seems like most manufacturers look to get a tune that runs well in most circumstances and don't take the time to tune for efficiency - you see it in the cars and trucks, but semis - that might be a business opertunity.
They tune everything for emissions now which has zero to do with fuel efficiency. A proper retune with some optional emissions component deleting can do a world of good with pretty much every vehicle these days.
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From Nick Ayivor from London England UK 🇬🇧 Good Morning 🙏 🌄 ⏰️ 06:52am
Potentially the savings could be made in the gearbox/diff as a 13 speed and such high ratio diffs would keep the engine spinning too high and away from the efficiency sweet spot so my breakdown of a solution based on the specs would be to leave the engine alone, look to move to an 18 speed with 18th being a longer over drive, 17 being direct and using an additional 3 intermediate ratios to make a better use of the torque spread and possibly consider taller diff ratios to allow for more efficient use of the long top couple of gears to allow the rig to keep engine speeds low at better speeds.
the best way to get better fuel mileage is to slow down and watch your boost gauge, boost equals fuel,and delete the NOX file, those oil field trucks when they pass me they always blow my wig back
How they are doing these tunes for fuel economy is by making the engine non emissions compliant.
the manufacturers made it as efficient as they could and comply with the emissions standards, but one of the things they needed to reduce was nox emissions.
Unfortunately, running a diesel lean leads to a high nox emissions with the high cylinder temps.
Essentially, a tune similar to the pre accert c15 will give a similar result if moddiefed to work with the extra boost of the accert.
Extra power can also help if it means you can be doing the same job at a lower rpm and not labouring down as much.
Bumping the injection timing, similar to a cars ignition timing. Actually increase efficiency by increasing the power and torque created for the same fuel use. Which results in less fuel used for the same task. I actually have a pdi timing tune on my 2020 X15 cummins. I ended up pulling torque load target with incal to 26psi and pdi tune adds 15% hp and tq on top of it, bringing what would be maybe a 525hp 1850tq power level back up to 605hp 2050tq (my stock power. All while using 6psi less of boost and fuel. I went from 6mpg to 7.4mpg running 100,000lb mid Washington to the west cost, I go over ryegrass, thorp, Snoqualmie pass, Easton and sometimes tiger and still get his good economy, and I don't fall under 55mph.
I have noticed the same with my C 5.9 when I plow snow and idle a lot with rpm is below about 2000,
I can't speak to the big diesels but I do have quite a bit of experience with small ones. Specifically vw tdi motors. The 1.9 AHU tdi in a jetta gets about 35-40mpg. If you upgrade the turbo and injectors you can make more power and get 50-55mpg. In these little motors it's very apparent because stock you are always flooring it because it's underpowered, boost it up and you're never working it as hard to get up to speed or up a hill. (Living in the rockies hills are unavoidable) I'm not sure how that would transfer over to a commercial diesel though as my only knowledge with them is limited to the Detroit 12v71 and 8v92 platforms that share little to nothing with 4stroke cat motors.
Which begs the question of why do the manufacturers not make the engines that way in the first place?
@@dougthompson1598 emissions and fuel economy standards. The engines are set up to pass the government tests, not to actually maximize the engines performance.
This is one i can kinda sorta answer. Had a boss with 20 C15 trucks and had a dude flash them. What it did is uprated several parts well past design spec changed fuel burn rates and injection timeings and so on. In short he rewrote how the engine behaved which had a side effect of pushing the engine to near 650 horse. Or it may have been intentional dont know.
Anyway they defo got better fuel econ....for about a year before we started to have a litiany of failures. Everything from blown injectors to faiked turbos to cracked blocks. Needless to say after 18 months we had zero trucks due to extreme damage and i was looking for a new job.
Most efficiency comes from the injection timing. But it messes up the emissions.
As for warranty I would just wait until it expires and then modify.
I have been working on trucks for 24 years and about seen it all. A Detroit will get better. I agree wont last as long but the rebuild is a lot cheaper. A aftermarket tune with the right guy behind the wheel of cat or Detroit will help but with a hot foot will hurt. Best thing he could do is delete the egr and go single turbo with a tune. It would get him back to 5.5 mph.
You have to understand Josh can not recommend anything outside of CAT specs. He is a CAT certified mechanic and would get in trouble for anything not CAT approved.