Traditionalism vs Progressivism in the Catholic Church? | SEEK24| Msgr. James Shea Impact Session
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- Опубліковано 11 лип 2024
- Monsignor James Shea shares an Impact Session talk from SEEK24 in St. Louis, MO titled: Love for the Church in a Post-Christian Age where he discusses the tensions between progressivism and traditionalism in the Catholic Church and addresses the notion of a utopian Church.
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0:00 Opening Prayer
0:50 JPII Lenten Retreat
4:26 Enamored with Utopias
9:00 Ideas Matter
13:46 Responses to the 2nd Vatican Council
16:31 Why People Are Always Angry Now
21:14 What the Church is Meant to Be
27:07 The Church is Not a Utopia - Розваги
In a polarized world and in a polarized church, God asks us to be Saints. Thank you for this powerful talk!
“I can help you be happier “ 😂🤣😂🤣 I love this pastor
The idea of the Church taking on the infirmities of the world in parallel to Christ is probably one of the best analogies for what the Church is intended for - not utopia, but rather the mystical body of Christ, immune to the ailments of the world.
Possibly the most inspiring and hopeful video I’ve seen about where the Church is today. Thank you, Monsignor
I am in tears and I have chills. I really needed this. Thank you
Exceptional. Really. I learnt a lot about the nature of the Church as the Body of Christ, which suffers and bears the wounds until the end of time... Thank you and God bless you, Father Shea and FOCUS!
This was really hope filled and beautiful. I’ll try to keep it in mind when I start feeling bogged down but the extremes.
Wow, incredible talk. I pray this spreads far and wide. Your message about not falling into utopian thinking when it comes to the Church or in our personal lives resonated deeply with me, and was a salve for the many times I’ve given into that very temptation. Thank you!
Not bored, interesting history, oh do I need a redeemer, I embrace Jesus everyday to cleanse me of my selfishness,each day is a new blessing……Thank you Msgr…I pray for you and all Priests doing God’s work…….God Bless
Hallelujah!! This talk should be called "Blood of Christ: Eternal hope for the ages"
I hear in Msgr Shea's comments, the voice of my Parochial Catholic School 8th grade, 1968 home room teacher, Mr Eugene Lemler, bless his soul. Although Msgr Shea was born in 1975, it's almost like he sat through, and was proselytized by the same lectures I listened to way back then. I pray to the Lord Jesus Christ that He hears the prayers Mr. Lemler as I invoke his advocacy for my salvation, and for the that of Msgr. Shea.
This talk is absolutely outstanding. Thank you Monsignor!
I can help you to be happier! Love it! Understanding the history counts! Utopia based on lie that we ride over trouble to dis utopia 18:00! Such a wonderful heart felt and much needed teaching! Every single age, the church takes it in, all of it! As Jesus did … Christianity isn’t a utopia solution! Called to live in this time. Thank you for a phenomenal call to be Saints! Experience the incredible love of Jesus. ♥️🙏✝️‼️
Holy smokes. Beautiful.
A beautiful and wholesome teaching on the Church! You made me fall in love with the Church again
Monsignor Shea!!! I hear the voice of a lover of Christ here. This sounds like a litany of Praise to God our redeemer!!!!
He is so bright and wise! I have not been to church for so long.
I am sorry to hear that you haven't been to church in a long time. I will pray for you.
@@Kelgoran Please do!
Jesus is waiting for you! I'll include you in my rosary :)
Our lives' are arenas for failure, for Christ to redeem. Modern man is condemned to success. I think I became a little more joyful today, thank you.
Amennnn hallelujah praise God
Beautiful
I am Catholic, neither Traditional nor progressive.
Being a Catholic I have always appreciated the diversity in the Church, therefore I believe that these two extreme carpoles apart make the Church beautiful.
This is the first time I sat through an entire talk on this channel. Usually I get bored and quit very soon, but this time I wanted to see, how it ended. I must say, I don't know, should I be happy or sad.
The speaker Msgr. James Shea seems to be excellent in philosophy and biblical theology. May the good Lord bless him and his Priestly Ministry.
With due respect to him, I would like to disagree with him, for the underlying premise of this entire talk is that, the Church cannot be perfect and need not be perfect.
From a certain hermeneutical perspective it is correct, we are all sinners and we have all fallen (Rom 3:23), no doubt.
Yet Jesus said "Be Perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Mat 5:48).
St. Paul writes "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" (Ephesians 1:4).
Again in Romans 8:30 St. Paul writes "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Again in Ephesians 2:19 St. Paul writes "So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God"
Therefore I am of the opinion that we are not saints in the making, but united with Christ Jesus we are Saints already. Not because we are Holy and blameless all by ourselves, but because we are united with Christ Jesus who is perfect, Holy and Blameless.
For again St. Paul writes "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
Finally, I wonder why Msgr. James Shea never Quotes the scripture 🧐
Finally: 1 Corinthians 2:1-5
"And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."
Once again I don't want to hurt anyone, I am sorry if I have hurt anyone, yet I couldn't stop myself from expressing the Truth as I know it.
Seeking your prayers.
Fr. Ritchie Vincent
Hello Fr! Writing to you from India too!
Again, I cannot assume to be well-read enough to be able to respond to yourself or even what Msgr. has said but, what I wanted to say was that in my opinion, what Msgr. was highlighting as the fundamental topic was not the perfection of the Church in all times; but the conflicts that occur within the Church based on ideology and corruption.
The point he was trying to make is that in all seasons, the Church cannot be expected to be perfect because the Church is human and the Church is in the world. And it absorbs the evil of its times and raises up Saints to bring it back on track. We have to continuously strive towards perfection, until its final attainment in the beatific vision of heaven. (Again, he isn't talking about the infallibility of the Magisterium, but the trends of the modern world outside and inside the church)
The underlying point is that under no circumstances should we give up and get angry, but be motivated to always follow Christ and the 2000-year-old patrimony of our ecclesiastical tradition, stand up for what is right and move towards Christ.
The kind of conflict he describes is apparent in the Western scenario where there is much influence of modernism and relativism. The talk being directed to Catholic youth is also relevant because we are faced every day with a society that is so alienated from Christian teaching, and he is telling us not to give up or be afraid, but to live our Christian truth, and trust God's providence, because He has already saved the world.
The point is not that the Church need not be perfect, but that the world will never be perfect, and the Church will find its perfection in the lives of the saints it raises up in every age, and in the Christ that died on the Cross.
@@RyanVD05 I do understand your point, and I do understand Msgr. Too. I just Disagree with him. He is speaking from a very Intellectual and philosophical point of view. Logically it seems to sound well. From my understanding of the Scripture, (I am not a scholar) from my very little understanding of the Greater Spiritual Realities, I find his arguments and discussion too worldly far away from scripture. I can be wrong too. I am open for correction. But I don't think he is right according to the Bible. I may not be able to explain it well. There is something fundamentally wrong in what he has preached. Again this is my opinion.
@@frritchievincent Well that's absolutely all right Father, and I myself could do very well to read more scripture myself.
Have a blessed Feast of the Trinity today, and do pray for me!
So it has ever been thus. Be at peace, trust Jesus as our leader...in the name of the Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit!
PS. Heaven awaits...not utopia. Thank you Monsignor!
WOW. thanks. Especially for 18:52
I pray to be a Saint every day, and to you, my brothers and sisters, I will pray for you, too.
🎉🎉🎉
27:55 best line "arenas for failure"
Comment for traction.
12:56
Deny the doctrine of the fall? Can I know what he is referring to when he says “The Fall” the fall of mankind? Like Adam and eve in the beginning?
Seeking clarity please 🙏
The Fall of humanity in Genesis...the idea that held in the Church for 1900+ years that there was original sin. If there was no fall....what would be the point of Jesus' death for us? You have no idea how many protestant religions do not teach was original sin, but baptize as a sign of conversion to Christ only.
@@kimlersue really? That is an interesting perspective. Thanks for your response. I did not know that they don’t teach original sin. I thought all Christian’s knew, understood and agreed to the story of adam and eve
So according to this priest we were already in Utopia before VCII?
It’s astonishing that this priest speaks of Traditionalist as Utopian. What an error. Interestingly, he mentions all the Traditional Saints in praise and forgets to say that they all celebrated the traditional Latin Mass.
Can he name Saint of those calibers after Vatican II?
What about modernism, the heresy against the TRUTH itself?
What about the "equality of religions", would we treat our Lord just as Budda or Pacamama?? It's blasphemy!
Modernism is not the heresy against the truth itself.
The idea that the church takes in all diseases of the age is not true. If it did, then the church only through a kind of irresistible grace delivered via sacraments is able to do good. And also, talk about an amazing excuse for sin among the hierarchy....well, it's just the same sins as the world, surely you laity don't expect holiness out of the clergy, do you?
FSSPX!!!
Lol Lenin wasn't the Napoleon of his time. That's complimenting Lenin more than he ever deserves, Lenin was no military genius or reformer of laws which to this day successful countries still implement due to their superiority. About the only thing in common with them both is that they both led to the deaths of millions and opportunists. But the only countries that kept Lenin's laws are unsuccessful ones.
This is one of the most insidious talks I have ever watched. Msgr. Shea is right about the need to stand up for the Church and orthodoxy, which is precisely why we must fight for the integrity of Catholic doctrine. Vatican II claimed to be a pastoral council rather than a dogmatic one, but effectively obscured Church teaching, leading many to fall away from the Faith. It is not "utopian" to advocate for a return to the traditional Mass and perennial Catholic beliefs. It is because of Saints like St. Athanasius that I do so. Just as the Saints never tolerated heresy or even the suspicion of it, we should not.
He has a few good nuggets of truth, but I agree. As long as the church continues to trivialise doctrine and ambiguously comment on heresy, the church will flounder. The saints are heroes precisely because they were outspoken against it, worked in opposition to it, lived out a life in contrast to it, and in many cases were martyred for their efforts.
@@juliand6317 Agreed! Thank you for this comment.
Vatican ll lead many to fall away from the faith? I’m not sure I understand or follow that logic.
@@MrEfritz Good question. Prior to the Second Vatican Council, the Church, especially in the United States, was growing. For example, there were annual Eucharistic conferences that were very well-attended. Today, the Church is sadly selling many church buildings or combining parishes because of the sharp decrease in parishioners. I heard that "ex Catholic" is one of the largest "religious" categories in the United States, and there are something like six former Catholics for every convert to the Faith. What is more, those who do still consider themselves Catholic tend not to agree with Church teachings. The majority of Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence, and increasing numbers are even rejecting the teachings on abortion, homosexuality, contraception, and so on. Given that the timing of all of this has coincided with the implementation of Vatican II reforms, it appears that the Council's efforts to revitalize the Church have failed--in fact, they have had an adverse effect. If you are interested in learning more about this topic, there are many resources I could point you to. I acknowledge that correlation is not causation, and other factors, like the Sexual Revolution, were also influential. Still, as the saying goes, "as the Church goes, so goes the world."
@@sophiajohnson8608 I disagree. I don't understand the traditionalist tendency to characterize the Pre-Vatican II Church as healthy and growing. If you speak with Baby Boomers who were alive pre-Vatican II, they almost all describe a very different reality.
Let me paint a different picture. Prior to Vatican II, the seminaries and religious orders were full. Catholic Churches were well attended, most Catholic families sent their kids to Catholic schools (taught by the nuns), and the generations were "well catechized" having memorized the Baltimore Catechism. However, underneath the surface was a Church that was full of toxicity, lack of authentic disciples, clericalism and abuse. The seminaries were full of closet active homosexuals and sexual predators - hiding within a respected position that would protect them and hold them to little accountability. The convents were full of orphaned women who had no real relationship with Christ and who were angry and bitter. These nuns physically and emotionally abused school children and eventually gave rise to all of the religious order rebellion that we saw post Vatican II (same nuns who beat children were the nuns advocating for "reform" in the Church). The Catholic parishes in the USA were full of an cultural Catholics - migrants from religiously persecuted locations who came to the United States for religious freedom. After a generation or two of living in the United States, the children and grandchildren of these migrants lacked authenticity in their faith because they were only Catholics culturally and not because of any real relationship with Christ and his Church. This is why you see east coast Catholic Churches empty - there are no longer Polish Catholics, Irish Catholics, Korean Catholics, etc. They have largely phased out due to a lack of authenticity. The Baltimore catechized generation was one of the most poorly catechized generations in the history of the Church - they memorized dogmas instead of possessing any true understanding of Catholic theology. Lacking understanding of the faith, they failed miserably to pass down the faith to their children, giving rise to the catechetical crisis among Generation X that we saw post Vatican II.
Some like to point to Vatican II as the reason why the Church went down the tubes. If the Catholic Church was healthy in the 1950s, where did all of these healthy Catholics go in the 1960s and 1970s? Did they just disappear? No. The Catholics who rebelled against Church teaching were the ones who were formed by a toxic Church pre-Vatican II. What Vatican II provided was exposure of the poison and a path to begin to create the antidote. Vatican II provided a rise of the laity, allowing groups like FOCUS, Cursillo, the Charismatic renewal, Catholic Answers, and other lay run apostolates to develop and serve the Church. Vatican II provided an opportunity to begin the work of reforming our seminary formation and convents, allowing all kinds of new, orthodox, vibrant, and young religious orders to rise and take the place of their predecessors. Vatican II allowed the Church to begin to engage with the world through media, allowing for the creation of things like Bible in a Year, Hallow, and EWTN. For crying out loud... Dei Verbum (a Vatican II document) emphasized the need for Catholics to study and understand Scripture (something that was unheard of prior to Vatican II among Catholics), which has led to current generations of Catholics being better educated in Scripture than Protestants.
Your belief that Vatican II caused the exodus of Catholics from the Church is erroneous. As the world changed and Christendom suffered its final gasps, this exodus was ALWAYS GOING TO HAPPEN. If anything, Vatican II is the reason why there are pockets of vibrant Catholicism that are breathing life back into the Church.
This is such a weak talk. Just a lot of talking with no substance. Whatever he believes if he believes anything, he is purposely vague about.