If you want my personal help to develop the character arcs in your fantasy novel, then consider joining my 7-week Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp. Applications for Cohort 4 close on October 16th: jedherne.com/outline/ "The bootcamp has saved me months or years of wandering with this story. This is the best investment I’ve ever made in my writing, and I’ll be referring to the recordings again and again. So if you’re looking to level up your writing and develop a clear path to a finished manuscript, I cannot recommend this bootcamp highly enough." - Christine Row, Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp student
1. Ghost: Shek grows up being taught that ogres are bad and everyone hates them 2. Lie: Shrek believes no one would love or be friends with an ogre 3. Want: Shrek wants to live in isolation in his swamp 4. Need: Shrek needs to open up and let people in 5. Truth: Shrek needs to realize that he's a good guy and not be confrontational/expect confrontation
Ghost: character was driven from his home by barbarian invaders who razed and destroyed half of the entire kingdom, forced to flee to the capital city, seen as a city of prosperity, but instead it exploits him and his family, until it breaks them down and leaves them to die Lie: The kingdom is evil, and if only there was reform or revolution, then everything will be better, and the nation will once again prosperity. Want: To reform the kingdom or bring about the revolution, so that corruption and exploitation will be brought to an end Need: to understand that the world is far bigger than he can comprehend, there are hundreds of forces and factions in the kingdom that pull on eachother for power for reasons noble and terrible, and simply changing a few things, or breaking everything and rebuilding things in your own image will not remove evil. Truth: similar to need Didn't know what really to put because the character has many shifting wants and needs, and there really isn't a permanent truth
Uncle iroh is also a great example of a flat character arc. We know he was once a war general and no longer is, but in the show itself he never changes, yet he is still one of everyone's favorite characters. And that's because he changes people around him, and helps the other characters grow and develop, especially zuko, obviously.
I wouldn't tend to agree because he realises his own flaws along the way. It is his lack of action in the face of his brother's evil that initially dooms Zuko and Azula. Although he hid it, he was disappointed by his title and victory in the Earth Kingdom, among other things. His journey allows him to reconnect with his wisdom and see his ability to, as you mentioned, see the impact he has on the ones around him. Teaching Zuko about balance of the elements and learning from others is one of those important moment for his own arc. That's why my man gets hella ripped and eventually revolts against Ozai, rejecting a Fire Nation that stands for evil.
The growth of a man who shares his experience with those around him, making those who listen to him develop as charactes and himself to learn about his own flaws. Simply perfect
@awolr I feel like any legitimate changes he went through happened before the story started off screen. He was a flat character who affected others to change more changed himself. Throughout the whole show he was the Grand Master of the White Lotus, empathetic to others, and took action but he didn't outright ever lead the action because he was playing 3 dimensional chess with the Avatar and Zuko being the deciding factor of when he takes action. He didn't come to that realization, he was just waiting for the youth to be ready to seize the world.
Yes. He went through his own positive character arc, but as part of his backstory. In the course of the main story he is flat and able to help others change.
it's interesting to me that i notice most people write positive character arcs, but most my characters have negative arcs lol. even when i write a character based around "the lie they believe", the arc I write tends to be about them doubling down on it and being ultimately consumed by it, and i love writing how that arc ultimately ends and how it effects their friends, loved ones, enemies and allies.
@@MorgottofLeyendell well, all the mainstream stories do the direct opposite (except for say, Game Of Thrones and Breaking Bad, but I haven't read/watched those, so i don't know much about them.) , so maybe as 'indie' writers, that's why we all write the same very different thing to that which is traditional? who knows!
This is why I'm subscribed to you! Instead of "pumping out" content, you wait until you have something high quality and then release it. This is an hour long video I am glad to have watched!
@thr4wn Hey there, is it ok if i could have a second of your time. I've been really struggling with a big decision. Its regarding a decision of me wanting to change business models, from doing a self improvement channel, to doing a writing channel. I'm not sure if with writing, there is really much that can be "taught" on writing, because different people have different methods. I want to be able to make money while doing what i love, and I see that Jed has been able to do it, but i still feel doubtful.
@@DanSung2021 you should do a channel on whatever you could see yourself focusing on and doing thousands of times all throughout your life. If writing is your passion and you could see yourself living, sleeping, and eating writing and you love it so much that you would talk to anyone who will listen to you about it even after you have been talking about it on a UA-cam channel for the past 20 years, then do it. You shouldn't let what everyone does differently stop you from pursuing your passion. In fact, your unique writing style and method should be why you should do a channel. Create a niche around it, with the viewers in mind. If you give the viewers what they want, then you'll have viewers who will want to watch your content.
We keep being told to write 1000 words a day. Back when I used to do that would end up throwing away a lot of what I wrote because there was no plot, no outline, and no character arc. I still change my outline very frequently, but now I write only the scenes I know are key and use THOSE SCENES as the base for my outline. No more wasteful writing!
Huh. At the begining of Ned's story he beheads a man, saying; "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die." His story ends with him being sentenced to death unjustly, and Joffery didn't swing the sword himself. Neat.
And what about this: Ned is the bad guy there, because he justifies him killing the man with a very poor reason: if you are able to kill someone (for any reason), then the dude did deserve the death. At least, Joffrey has a problem about watching or sentencing people to die; he can't do it, he is just under the laws of the system. And speaking about system, on the other hand, Ned has the power to simply not consider death sentence as a valide judgement; but no, he even tries to justify it and enhances it with some bullsh*t words about honor or something, while we all know death sentence is a FAILURE in any legal system and never has bring some good in it. Trying to justify it is at least as bad as not being able to do it self. Not to mention Ned did condemn the poor guy to death without any tribunal because he was a deserter, in a time of PEACE, applying some old tradition blindly. Where really is the justice between the two executions?
@@Flougdd I do see where youre coming from but I feel like you really misinterpreted the Ned quote. He isn't saying "if you have the ability to kill a man then you're allowed to kill him." He's saying "if you ARE going to kill someone, you owe it to them to do it yourself." Two entirely separate things. Also, with your argument about the death sentence, keep in mind this is a medieval world where the death sentence is fairly common. Historically, desertion carries a death sentence for a reason, and in this specific context, the person who was executed was literally a criminal who instead of being punished chose to become a member of the nights watch. That WAS his punishment and sentencing, and by deserting (even for a good reason), he was essentially avoiding his punishment. I do think that Ned should've at least talked to him first and learned why he deserted, but that's really his only failing. Not punishing someone for their crimes sets a bad precedent, and as someone with as much authority as Ned has, he can't afford to do that. Also the fact that you said Joffrey is doing things in the just and legal way is absolutely appalling. Nothing he does in the books is illegal because he IS the king for a fair amount of time, but every ruling he makes is immoral, cruel, and evil. I'll remind you he almost had a 13 year old girl (who he was originally supposed to marry) stripped naked and beaten for his amusement. Was it legal? Yes. Was it a good and just thing for him to do? No.
@@Valdrr My saying about Joffrey is not is he legal or not, just saying he was committed due to his position to obey certain rules; as Ned is, and as you mention. But in the case of Joffrey, I don't remember any justification of the act with some honor speech (it's been a wild for this story, forgive my memory of the details). On the other hand, while I understand what you mean for Ned, he is still in a position of validation. He needs to explain why his act does have something fair in it. Something like "at least, people will see we are not that bad because we are doing it ourself"; it's a way of tricking the people into forgetting the truth which is an arbitrary judgment. Yes, it is medieval setting, and having studied history I know it well, but the book is modern, is it? As an author, I would not feel the need to mimic everything from historical period I take inspiration from. I don't see how Ned being honorable over that specific situation does change my reading experience, opposed as if he was prohibiting death sentence; would I be pissed off if a medieval fantasy book shows a lord refusing to condemn to death, while he should not because he is "medieval inspiration character"? I would not. It's not a historical book, it's a fiction one.
I usually already have an MC in mind, I write a plot around it, then I go back to videos like these and then everything changes (except certain core ideas, although all of those have left the story I'm working on rn lol)
I've condensed the core components to just three: The Want, The Need, and The Lie. I've also used this for the supporting characters, to flesh out their motivations, desires, and expectations.
The thing I like about your videos is how validating they are. I tend to doubt the quality of my work a lot, but then I catch one of your videos and can confirm that I have already applied almost everything you suggest, despite not necessarily knowing that was what I was doing. What you say about the first time you wrote a book also reminds me of my first manuscript. I was 11, maybe 12, and just started writing from the prologue with no idea as to where I was going, and made all the mistakes possible, until I eventually dropped it. It was too big of a mess, and handwritten, so not fixable easily. I think too many young writers forget that the people they look up to for writing good books didn't just get there on the first try. In my case I've been writing for 16 years without ever even attempting to publish anything. In that time I've been free to experiment and fail a lot, and thus learn from those failures to do better on the next project. What you give on your channel is pretty much a cheat-sheet to skip over all the mistakes we had to make, by breaking down what you've learned, and I appreciate that, even if it is oftentimes redundant information to me, as it at least helps reassure me that I have indeed learned, and am a better writer for it. Cheers.
Jed, I can't thank you enough. Been writing a novel for a while now that ties together 3 character arcs; I was confident on 2 of them but completely stuck on the third one. I've read the KM weiland books explaining these concepts, yet I've been more or less banging my head against the wall trying to come up with ideas, to no avail. But your numerous examples and the "axis of Desire" table really have helped me to understand the missing pieces of the puzzle. Once again, thank you!!
My favorite fantasy characters with cool arcs are Luz (the owl house) and Zuko (avatar the last airbender). Zuko's redemption arc and Luz's arc in finding herself and what she truly wants in life are written so well and done in such a way that I love to rewatch them over and over again.
In my novella my protagonist is meant to become less likable as the book progresses, and intentionally have the readers turn against the protagonist and their actions. It features a negative character arc, where protagonist becomes more of a antagonist figure, going from good to evil due to childhood trauma
If well made, it's quite a good ideia. But a bit dangerous. I hope you have other characters the Reader can attach themselves to, otherwise they can feel quite lost. I remember some Sanderson comments about subverting expectations and plot twists, saying that its a very difficult thing to pull off, but if done well can be amazing. Hope you can do it!
@@rhuanv My book is split into two parts, separated by a large time skip. The first half follows the protagonist as a pre teen child, and the latter half as a young adult, with all the negative arc happening in this latter portion, after a traumatic incident at the midpoint, after their father, the king of an empire, is murdered by their jealous, bitter uncle. It is essentially a retelling of Shakespeare's Hamlet I have a love interest, who is meant to be very likable, but who gets murdered by the protagonist (who is female btw, with a male love interest) shortly after a lovemaking scene.
Just fyi, you're mixing up protag/antag with hero/villain. They're often conflated, but not strictly speaking the same thing. A protagonist is the one who acts, or the character we're following, and an antagonist is the one who acts against, or the opposition to the protagonist. A hero, meanwhile, is a character who does heroic things (albeit not always necessarily for good reasons) and a villain is a character who does villainous things (albeit not necessarily for bad reasons). If your protagonist is villainous, e.g. Walter White from Breaking Bad, then the heroic character trying to stop them, e.g. Hank Schrader, is the antagonist. Of course, the protag/antag relationship can get even more complicated, but the protagonist is always just whoever is the main point of view character. It's not a values judgement. It's just the person whose story is being told.
I have watched sections of this videos over and over again. It's so helpful and I've never thought of character arcs the way that you've layer them out for me and it honestly makes so much sense. The flat arc thing makes so much sense and because of this video I now know how to apply a flat arc instead of forcing a positive character arc on my mc (which would have just ended up being unnatural). I think this is one of the best videos around. I can't believe the amount of times I've watched this on repeat. It's beyond helpful. Thank you so much.
The density and specificity of your advice is so much different than the toothless advice I see on so many writing videos. This is actually a great model for lots of things, I'm going to prompt my players in my next D&D campaign to use this during character creation. Can't believe this is available free on UA-cam. You're the best!
I just found your channel today. I’m not a fantasy writer or a novelist. I’m currently working on a comic, in fact the first piece of writing I’ve tried. I’m still in the development stage and your videos have already helped me iron out some ideas. Thanks, and I really hope my story comes out as good as it is in my head!
I am working on a graphic novel myself and this is my first time writing for what I am drawing. Tough stuff, right? Great resources like this certainly help me! Wishing you the best, brother!
Omg flat arcs are a thing I wish I knew earlier.... this has helped immensely. Here I am worried that my characters not changing much, aside from knowledge. I've been worried it's not enough but she does impact her friends and the world. Thanks
This applies to about any fiction and explains so much about the dullness in mine. I just saw it a first time to understand it. Now I will go through it a second time and directly apply it to my current story.
Sometimes, I think of better characters in my daydreams than I do in my more active mind thinking about characters. This was pretty helpful to flesh out ideas. Cool vid!
Thanks for the great video. I have written countless short stories, tried building fantasy and sci-fi worlds, and scribbled parts of stories here and there, but this video has helped me a lot. It gave me newfound inspiration and made me pick apart my different fantasy worlds, pull new inspiration and have a clear story in my head now. I will definitely use the notes I've taken from this video and try following the 9-point story structure along with the arc components.
Hey Jed, could you maybe make a video on writing short fiction and short stories and how the process and method differs from writing longer fiction like novellas, novels or entire series?
The key thing with short stories, is starting late and ending early, preferably with an ambiguous, open ended ending I have recently written a Lovecraftian cosmic horror short story using this principle
@@unicorntomboy9736Yeah that makes sense. I suppose my issue is that most of the ideas I have always seem too big to fit into a short fiction frame or like I’m not utilising them to their full potential by trying to write them in a shorter format. I like writing long fiction but I also want to write short fiction to practice actually finishing the things I start. What makes an idea suitable for a short story to you or how do you shrink down or refine ideas to fit a shorter format?
I've give this a listen at work. My protagonists start off with flaws that they learn to overcome throughout the story but readers have complained that those flaws make them unlikeable at the start of the book. Hoping this will help!
Are they aware of those flaws? I think that generates sympathy for a character if, say, they're constantly rude, but you can tell they know they're being rude and don't like that about themselves but can't seem to help it. Or, say, a cowardly character that you can see struggling trying to convince themselves to take a brave action, but ultimately failing.
As cliche as it is, a "save the cat" moment could help. Doesn't necessarily have to be anything big, could just be a small indication that at least one of the characters has some good in them. A kind word or gesture to someone, a hint of regret after doing something bad. Anything, however little, to show to the reader that even if the character is for the most part unlikeable at the start, there is some good in them that might come out later in a bigger way.
I am completely new to writing stories but have been slowly building a world in my free time for the last 4 years. I’ve finally defined enough aspects to make a start on my story and these videos are fantastic. Thanks very much!
Thanks for this. I do think adding "Purpose" to your Axis of Desire could really strengthen it. Some of the other desires somewhat fall into the same realm, but some characters could also want to discover who they are and why they're on this Earth (or whatever world they're in). That alone could also lead them down some interesting paths.
Jed, my good sir, it's so nice to see your channel grow. This video is some of your finest work! Any chance on reviving your fantasy podcast? It would be so great!!
Maybe "More antagonist pressure" could be "The antagonist mirror" or similar. The way you describe it, after the midpoint being a time for the protagonist to view themselves in the mirror, the other side is then reflected by the antagonist. Just a thought =) What an incredible video! You do such a good job of tying the pieces of story together. Thanks Jed!
I love that all of your videos have examples from other books or movies to help explain your points (like the Harry Potter example). Thank you for making great videos! :)
Remember, arcs don't have to be unidirectional. You can have characters "trade" parts of themselves, gaining new negatives while also gaining positives, and you can have them lose almost everything that makes them good and slowly rebuild it or gain something new. Houseki no Kuni, Arifureta, and Tokyo Ghoul come to mind.
I'm doing something similar with one of my protagonists. She is a body snatcher that starts the story not really living or viewing itself as "real", but also not really hurting people - changing a body only when she needs to and usually takes it from someone that's dying anyway. The other protagonists convince it to give living a try, and it fully adopts the identity of this girl. Anyway, she turns out to rather enjoy being a person and having friends and the likes. So, positive arc, right? Maybe, but we also see her willingness to be a monster to protect her new identity abd friends. When she gets injured enough to destroy her body, she hunts down a minor villain that was kinda similar to her, gets her shapeshifting ex to sculpt the poor girl's body to be identical to her, and then murders her to assume her form. That's objectively monstrous, and she would not have done it earlier in the story
This video helped me so much! The way you worded it and your visuals and examples really made me understand a lot of this way better. Other’s videos made sense to me and I wanted to use them but my brain didn’t comprehend how to use them for my own story. This I can use. Thanks so much!
I will be going thru the upcoming cohort and this video was wonderful. I saw this arc develop in one of my 3 protagonists and it's slowly developing in the other 2. This video really helped define a good character arc for rising to the challenge or succumbing to it. Looking forward to going deeper into this.
This was really helpful! As you were mapping out each type of arc, I realized that my main character is actually dealing with a negative arc, but at the final test, she returns to embracing the truth rather than rejecting it (not quite a flat arc)! One of the minor characters has a flat arc, but it is not positive; he is a narcissist and one of the main influences guiding the negative arc. Then as you continued explaining, my story flopped arcs again. There is a major event that happens before the story which will come up later on, but we actually start with the main character in a darker place as a result of a series of events following that event... so it's actually a positive arc if you start there. Thank you for helping me work through this! My story wasn't making sense looking at positive arc tips, since I was looking at the full story including back story! I was worried that my story was inherently flawed and going to be boring or unbelievable. I have new ideas to work with to make this work.
Anyone curious, there is a greatly exhaustive introduction to creating characters by David Corbett called "The Art of Character" and "The Character Compass" I've been rereading. In the Art, David develops over 28 chapters who the artist as a whole is and their observations of their own character to bring to empathetic life the characters they conceive. He emphasizes scenic writing especially in most exercises that end a chapter. In the Compass, David focuses in on the characters motivation, their desire. The epilogue alone really elevated my appreciation not just for storytelling to others, but especially what it means to me. As well, exercises at the end of each chapter.
Thank you so much for this! The overview of positive, negative, and flat arcs is so useful! While most of my novels are positive character arcs, I want to write a series that would be Sherlock-like. Understanding the flat arc helps me understand how that would work. Thank you ❤💜💟
I forgot I had Dark Souls 3 open and the menu music was playing for a good portion of this video. The entire time I was sitting here thinking "dang this guy really enjoys his theatrics"
I really like unlikable characters types because they have so much potential, they are my favorites. Even characters I truly despised at the start, like the MC of Lot 36 in the cabinet of curiosities, I still ended up rooting for. It might be the hardest type of character to make the public relate to, but I think they might also be the ones that would gain the most kudos if you manage to pull it off.
One of the characters in my book has the ghost, lie, want, need, truth arc, he is a vampire hunter who is haunted by the death of his mother at the hands of a vampire (the ghost) so he's dedicated his life to destroying vampirekind (the want) he wears a mask and doesn't tell his friends why he's doing this (the lie) but he needs to let go of the past and see past his hatred of vampires (the need) Near the end of the series he will reveal the truth to his friends, don't know how yet. And my favorite fantasy character arc is Peril from Wings of Fire.
I found my favorite is the recent trend of having main characters who support a flat arc in the sense the narrative centers on how they affect others, while also following their own arc as a subplot. Ex: One Punch Man or Chainsaw Man. in One Punch Man, Saitama successfully achieved his want, but still hasn't recognized his need, so he feels empty and stuck, but the fact that his accomplishments completely disrupt the nature of the world around him, we see how his presence affects the ensemble cast of heroes and villains we meet along the road. In turn, slowly but surely, these people he affects are helping him realize that while he thought he had reached the end by obtaining his want,he has so much further to go, given what he needs is still ahead of him in life. In Chainsaw Man, Denji is a terrible pos person, but tragically is that way as a result of his lot in life. His issue, is he's spent so long without accomplishing a single want in his life, he hasn't obtained the emotional maturity to perceive his need. as such, his comparably anomalous personality and desire affect those around him in interesting and compelling ways, especially the current arc of the manga,of which I will not spoil.
Well... my writing for characters especially my MC is always centered around the fact at how much I can break down my character, what is the lowest point they can reach and what they do when they reach that point. I'm definitely a brutal writer as I implement everything to absolutely tear my characters down so I can see them at their lowest so then if I want them to have a redemption arc (which I often don't have) then it will hit so much harder. Also I firmly believe that you know a character most by seeing them at their lowest and at doing something insanely mundane or a glimpse into their daily life. That's just my opinion though.
I totally agree, our characters show their true colors under the least and highest pressure. Breaking your characters also helps you and the reader understand the fundamental nature of those characters.
03:37 _"....Plot IS Character! Character IS Plot! ....How they [ the characters ] choose IS Who They Are...."_ -- Robert McKee [[ à la his rightly renowned book, 'Story: Substance, Structure, Style, and the Principles of Screenwriting' ]]
@Jed_Herne im listening to his book on character now. Did you like any book more than the others? So far, I'm learning some from Character, but not as much as I hoped
Thanks for this video. While i have most of things figured out, putting my characters and the story in this perspective really streamlined tgings a lot.
Truly inspiring. Damnit. Going to rewrite my main characters and villains now :) One idea I'll add to the pile: I'm planning to have a pair of interacting arcs for two romantically connected (and disentangled, and reconnected) characters who are all resolved and happy and together by the end of book one. But after that, they remain together - and thus they share a common arc from that point on. Maybe their marriage vows should include "...and so I will bind my character arc to yours, till epilogue do us part..."
There are actually plot driven stories where the characters are in service of the plot not the other way around, an example would short stories like Issac Azemov short sci-fi stories, the characters exist only to facilitate the cool/interesting/surprising plot and whatever twist happens at the end that delivers the moral of the story, the characters themselves are pretty much disposable and we don't get to know much about them. You could also think of something like the Foundation books as a plot driven book, the story spans thousands of years and the focus is mainly on exploring the grand themes and concepts behind the story not the characters themselves.
I'd say Revenge stories and spy stories usually have a static character who doesn't really have an arc (James Bond, Whoever LN Played in Taken, etc). I think that is what most people are talking about when saying character arc v plot primarily, and which one you want to shift between.
I really loved this video, I had revisited a plan for a novel I was going to write but didn’t, I’m going to work on it now, if anyone finds this in the sea of comments and wants updates, tell me, I’d be glad to give you an update friend 😊
Thank you so much for mentioning that the ghost doesn’t have to be traumatic. I’ve been struggling with my character cause I thought she had to have a bad experience.
Wonderful set of lessons, and I appreciate the work you’re doing for writers around the world. Not that it takes away from any of that, but I disagree completely with your point about Indiana Jones as a flat arc (no ark-related puns intended) example. It’s my favorite film because of the thematic complexity wrapped inside a wonderfully fun package with maximum popular appeal, and I think you (or whoever reads this) may see my point that it sounds like you missed about one of your favorite movies - which is fun! Indy’s belief about the value of the Ark as a historical artifact at the beginning is tied to his beliefs about several fundamental themes - all of which perseverate around reliance and trust… or as some would put it, “faith.” Indy doesn’t have any belief in the divine powers that are driving the Nazis search for the Ark; he merely respects its historical value. Likewise, he appreciates the people in his life, from Jock the pilot to Brody to Sallah to Marion and (presumably) Abner Ravenwood - they are all valuable, but he has a superficial appreciation for them at the start of the film, a lack of commitment to them for the sake of his impassioned pursuit of adventure and symbols of meaningful value. Belloq tells him the truth at the beginning when he says they are the same, despite Indy’s apparently more honorable intentions. But Belloq is right, at least in the thematic sense. Each of the key supporting characters all represent a different aspect of belief or disbelief in others and of higher purpose or power, Each of the people in his circle of trust does something to betray his trust, albeit in human and understandable ways, from the snake in the plane to Sallah… until Marion reverses this trend, at great risk to herself. Scene after perfect scene, both cinematically and thematically, we see him escaping impossible odds and brushing up against success, only to slide into another hopeless circumstance of failure, Indy finally learns to lean into believing in something as he pursues the heroic objectives - it is his belief and the way that he finally understands that leaning into belief is the thing he had been trying to do in every aspect of his life and adventure, but he was only putting his toes in the water and finding it cold. In the end, it is his belief that the Ark does in fact have the power it was fabled to have that allows him to escape the most impossible situation yet, and finally save Marion. I’m not a religious person, but it’s a perfect expression of many forms of faith and trust and acceptance, and I think it’s exactly the opposite of a flat arc. No clue if anyone will read this ramble months after this video is posted, but thanks again for sharing your insights, all of which I agree are critical to good writing, even if I disagree on particular examples or interpretations of them. Cheers!
I think one of the best ways to learn writing is to study the 3 act story structure and then trying to make sense of all the storyaspects like character, tension, plot and how they effect each other
I have the bones of a story I've been writing off-and-on for quite some time, though more off than on. And it was a little uncanny when you were laying out the Ghost Archetypes because my main character's ghost fits into 7 out of 10 of the categories you listed.
I’m thinking about applying these character arc insights to American politics and polarities. The psychologies at work here help make sense of the ascents and descents, the fervor and relentlessness, the tragedies and farces, the strange power dynamics.
Can you talk about the Classical Epic Genre and how we can adapt this genre of writing? Examples: Lusiads, Aeneid, Odyssey, Iliad. And can you give your opinion on these works? For example about the Lusiadas? (it's smaller) I hear few people talking about it. Please ❤🙏
I think "the last of us" deos something interesting here, especially, Jeols character arc. The point where either the truth or the lie wins, is left open and its kind of a negative change arc, but also kind of flat. I would not even know where to begin here. I love stories like this, because it resolve the story and it shows, that rules in writing are allways there to be broken. You have to know, what is best for youre story.
Robert Heinlein wrote that there are 3 main plots in character-driven stories. Boy Meets Girl (self-explanatory), The Little Tailor (underdog beats the odds), and The Man Who Learned Better, which is the one this video focuses on. Every story I've ever read (and enjoyed) uses at least one of these themes. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any story that doesn't make use of any of them isn't really a story at all.
What do you do if you don't know if you're gonna write Book 2, but if you do, you wanna keep your options open? Or should I just stick to one book, then I look at a different part of my world for Book 2? I'm indecisive and I'd rather just let an external source help me decide
Could you ever talk about character arcs in the span of a series birrger than 3 books? Or maybe about characters, especially the pov of MCs with some mental illness like depression? Thanks for your videos, i always learn so much from them!
I should have checked how long the video was before settling in to watch. I'll have to finish this later. Not the topic of this video, but I don't agree on Ned's Ghost. I think it's Robert's Rebellion as a whole, although that's from the perspective of someone who has read beyond the Game of Thrones. Ned's killer isn't honour or his uncompromising nature, it's his complacency.
The willingness to suffer vulnerability for the benefit of others or your future self is symptomatic of strength, but vulnerability itself is not "a form of strength". It's deliberate weakness which you can allow because of your compensating strength.
Wonderful Video! I was just wondering: what if the "lie" of the character is no lie at all, and is just their want for meaning in life just right after they've lost their meaning in their lives?
I'd ask if you are willing to write them being wrong or mistaken about what they want. Not the concept of wanting a meaning to their life, but what they have to do to get there... Coming of age stories, by definition, are about young characters finding meaning in their lives, but that doesn't change the need to explore their worldview, prejudices, biases. Even the things that make them strong can blind them. Pixar's Mr. Incredible knew exactly what he wanted out of his life until one law changed, and everything that made him important suddenly made him a liability. That doesn't mean the story doesn't also include acknowledging his biases. (In fact, Pixar has written a lot of older characters who were confident they already had their lives figured out, and taking them out of their comfort zone explored how their strengths built bubbles that insulated and enabled their biases. Joy, Sully, Woody, etc.)
My protagonist is destined to kill the antagonist, he at first is ambitious to do so but throughout the story he realises that he cannot do this and is constantly in a conflict to kill him or not, as killing the antagonist will save the others. In the last battle with the antagonist he decides not to kill him, so this decision results in his victory over the antagonist. Is it a good plot?
Would it be possible to have the magic system design contest be an annual event? I found your channel because of that contest and was super bummed that I wasn't able to participate.
14:10 That sounds like a coming-of-age story. Typical when a character has a positive outlook of the world (ignorance) then reality changes that point of view (this is often seen in children becoming adults hence "coming of age" title)
Well i plan a story with crossing Arcs. There are two main characters, from wich one start very very dark, and the other very very light and the one main character goes up and the other goes down and all across the story they Fight and my plan is that the reader starts to root for the one main character to rooting for an understanding to rooting for the other main character.
If you want my personal help to develop the character arcs in your fantasy novel, then consider joining my 7-week Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp. Applications for Cohort 4 close on October 16th: jedherne.com/outline/
"The bootcamp has saved me months or years of wandering with this story. This is the best investment I’ve ever made in my writing, and I’ll be referring to the recordings again and again. So if you’re looking to level up your writing and develop a clear path to a finished manuscript, I cannot recommend this bootcamp highly enough." - Christine Row, Fantasy Outlining Bootcamp student
1. Ghost: Shek grows up being taught that ogres are bad and everyone hates them
2. Lie: Shrek believes no one would love or be friends with an ogre
3. Want: Shrek wants to live in isolation in his swamp
4. Need: Shrek needs to open up and let people in
5. Truth: Shrek needs to realize that he's a good guy and not be confrontational/expect confrontation
Ghost: character was driven from his home by barbarian invaders who razed and destroyed half of the entire kingdom, forced to flee to the capital city, seen as a city of prosperity, but instead it exploits him and his family, until it breaks them down and leaves them to die
Lie: The kingdom is evil, and if only there was reform or revolution, then everything will be better, and the nation will once again prosperity.
Want: To reform the kingdom or bring about the revolution, so that corruption and exploitation will be brought to an end
Need: to understand that the world is far bigger than he can comprehend, there are hundreds of forces and factions in the kingdom that pull on eachother for power for reasons noble and terrible, and simply changing a few things, or breaking everything and rebuilding things in your own image will not remove evil.
Truth: similar to need
Didn't know what really to put because the character has many shifting wants and needs, and there really isn't a permanent truth
Uncle iroh is also a great example of a flat character arc. We know he was once a war general and no longer is, but in the show itself he never changes, yet he is still one of everyone's favorite characters. And that's because he changes people around him, and helps the other characters grow and develop, especially zuko, obviously.
I wouldn't tend to agree because he realises his own flaws along the way. It is his lack of action in the face of his brother's evil that initially dooms Zuko and Azula. Although he hid it, he was disappointed by his title and victory in the Earth Kingdom, among other things. His journey allows him to reconnect with his wisdom and see his ability to, as you mentioned, see the impact he has on the ones around him. Teaching Zuko about balance of the elements and learning from others is one of those important moment for his own arc. That's why my man gets hella ripped and eventually revolts against Ozai, rejecting a Fire Nation that stands for evil.
The growth of a man who shares his experience with those around him, making those who listen to him develop as charactes and himself to learn about his own flaws. Simply perfect
Naw, he definitely changes. He didn't have a pillow on his abs through the whole series, y'know! 😏
@awolr I feel like any legitimate changes he went through happened before the story started off screen. He was a flat character who affected others to change more changed himself. Throughout the whole show he was the Grand Master of the White Lotus, empathetic to others, and took action but he didn't outright ever lead the action because he was playing 3 dimensional chess with the Avatar and Zuko being the deciding factor of when he takes action. He didn't come to that realization, he was just waiting for the youth to be ready to seize the world.
Yes. He went through his own positive character arc, but as part of his backstory. In the course of the main story he is flat and able to help others change.
it's interesting to me that i notice most people write positive character arcs, but most my characters have negative arcs lol. even when i write a character based around "the lie they believe", the arc I write tends to be about them doubling down on it and being ultimately consumed by it, and i love writing how that arc ultimately ends and how it effects their friends, loved ones, enemies and allies.
I get how you feel, all of my protagonists end up dark and disturbed with tragic pasts. Maybe I'm just to cliche.
@@MorgottofLeyendell well, all the mainstream stories do the direct opposite (except for say, Game Of Thrones and Breaking Bad, but I haven't read/watched those, so i don't know much about them.) , so maybe as 'indie' writers, that's why we all write the same very different thing to that which is traditional? who knows!
That's prolly cuz ppl prefer likeable characters, but if you wanna start a character's depression arc go bonkers with it
@@Chicenk I don't see what depression has to do with being a bad person lol
@@Green-3c34y65vrbu Ah I thought being consumed meant like, becoming upset and crazy, replace it with villain arc then
This is why I'm subscribed to you! Instead of "pumping out" content, you wait until you have something high quality and then release it. This is an hour long video I am glad to have watched!
I appreciate that!
@thr4wn Hey there, is it ok if i could have a second of your time. I've been really struggling with a big decision. Its regarding a decision of me wanting to change business models, from doing a self improvement channel, to doing a writing channel.
I'm not sure if with writing, there is really much that can be "taught" on writing, because different people have different methods. I want to be able to make money while doing what i love, and I see that Jed has been able to do it, but i still feel doubtful.
@@DanSung2021 you should do a channel on whatever you could see yourself focusing on and doing thousands of times all throughout your life. If writing is your passion and you could see yourself living, sleeping, and eating writing and you love it so much that you would talk to anyone who will listen to you about it even after you have been talking about it on a UA-cam channel for the past 20 years, then do it. You shouldn't let what everyone does differently stop you from pursuing your passion. In fact, your unique writing style and method should be why you should do a channel. Create a niche around it, with the viewers in mind. If you give the viewers what they want, then you'll have viewers who will want to watch your content.
We keep being told to write 1000 words a day. Back when I used to do that would end up throwing away a lot of what I wrote because there was no plot, no outline, and no character arc. I still change my outline very frequently, but now I write only the scenes I know are key and use THOSE SCENES as the base for my outline. No more wasteful writing!
@@DanSung2021 Bro, do what u wanna do. But if you're gonna do it here on UA-cam, do it well, or at the very least, with passion.
This video just helped me iron out a problem in my ms that I didn't even know I had. Cheers!
Share the problem (if you're willing to)! I bet it would help a lot of us here too!
Huh. At the begining of Ned's story he beheads a man, saying; "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die." His story ends with him being sentenced to death unjustly, and Joffery didn't swing the sword himself. Neat.
I didn't even notice that. Great pick up!
And what about this:
Ned is the bad guy there, because he justifies him killing the man with a very poor reason: if you are able to kill someone (for any reason), then the dude did deserve the death. At least, Joffrey has a problem about watching or sentencing people to die; he can't do it, he is just under the laws of the system.
And speaking about system, on the other hand, Ned has the power to simply not consider death sentence as a valide judgement; but no, he even tries to justify it and enhances it with some bullsh*t words about honor or something, while we all know death sentence is a FAILURE in any legal system and never has bring some good in it. Trying to justify it is at least as bad as not being able to do it self.
Not to mention Ned did condemn the poor guy to death without any tribunal because he was a deserter, in a time of PEACE, applying some old tradition blindly.
Where really is the justice between the two executions?
@@Flougdd I do see where youre coming from but I feel like you really misinterpreted the Ned quote. He isn't saying "if you have the ability to kill a man then you're allowed to kill him." He's saying "if you ARE going to kill someone, you owe it to them to do it yourself." Two entirely separate things. Also, with your argument about the death sentence, keep in mind this is a medieval world where the death sentence is fairly common. Historically, desertion carries a death sentence for a reason, and in this specific context, the person who was executed was literally a criminal who instead of being punished chose to become a member of the nights watch. That WAS his punishment and sentencing, and by deserting (even for a good reason), he was essentially avoiding his punishment. I do think that Ned should've at least talked to him first and learned why he deserted, but that's really his only failing. Not punishing someone for their crimes sets a bad precedent, and as someone with as much authority as Ned has, he can't afford to do that.
Also the fact that you said Joffrey is doing things in the just and legal way is absolutely appalling. Nothing he does in the books is illegal because he IS the king for a fair amount of time, but every ruling he makes is immoral, cruel, and evil. I'll remind you he almost had a 13 year old girl (who he was originally supposed to marry) stripped naked and beaten for his amusement. Was it legal? Yes. Was it a good and just thing for him to do? No.
@@Valdrr My saying about Joffrey is not is he legal or not, just saying he was committed due to his position to obey certain rules; as Ned is, and as you mention. But in the case of Joffrey, I don't remember any justification of the act with some honor speech (it's been a wild for this story, forgive my memory of the details). On the other hand, while I understand what you mean for Ned, he is still in a position of validation. He needs to explain why his act does have something fair in it. Something like "at least, people will see we are not that bad because we are doing it ourself"; it's a way of tricking the people into forgetting the truth which is an arbitrary judgment.
Yes, it is medieval setting, and having studied history I know it well, but the book is modern, is it? As an author, I would not feel the need to mimic everything from historical period I take inspiration from. I don't see how Ned being honorable over that specific situation does change my reading experience, opposed as if he was prohibiting death sentence; would I be pissed off if a medieval fantasy book shows a lord refusing to condemn to death, while he should not because he is "medieval inspiration character"? I would not. It's not a historical book, it's a fiction one.
@@Flougdd Look like we have some beef going on here
Lemme grab some popcorn
This is the most informative video on the art of storytelling I have ever found. This has improved my story immensely.
Glad it was helpful!
@@Jed_Herne Hi!
Whenever I have to write down a main character, I go through this video and I end up with the best ideas. Thanks a lot!
I usually already have an MC in mind, I write a plot around it, then I go back to videos like these and then everything changes (except certain core ideas, although all of those have left the story I'm working on rn lol)
I've condensed the core components to just three: The Want, The Need, and The Lie. I've also used this for the supporting characters, to flesh out their motivations, desires, and expectations.
Between you and Ellen Brock, I basically have a degree in creative writing at this point. Thank you for the incredible work you do!
Makes me feel smart when I see a term on the board in my English class and I know what it means already
The thing I like about your videos is how validating they are. I tend to doubt the quality of my work a lot, but then I catch one of your videos and can confirm that I have already applied almost everything you suggest, despite not necessarily knowing that was what I was doing.
What you say about the first time you wrote a book also reminds me of my first manuscript. I was 11, maybe 12, and just started writing from the prologue with no idea as to where I was going, and made all the mistakes possible, until I eventually dropped it. It was too big of a mess, and handwritten, so not fixable easily.
I think too many young writers forget that the people they look up to for writing good books didn't just get there on the first try. In my case I've been writing for 16 years without ever even attempting to publish anything. In that time I've been free to experiment and fail a lot, and thus learn from those failures to do better on the next project. What you give on your channel is pretty much a cheat-sheet to skip over all the mistakes we had to make, by breaking down what you've learned, and I appreciate that, even if it is oftentimes redundant information to me, as it at least helps reassure me that I have indeed learned, and am a better writer for it. Cheers.
Jed, I can't thank you enough. Been writing a novel for a while now that ties together 3 character arcs; I was confident on 2 of them but completely stuck on the third one. I've read the KM weiland books explaining these concepts, yet I've been more or less banging my head against the wall trying to come up with ideas, to no avail. But your numerous examples and the "axis of Desire" table really have helped me to understand the missing pieces of the puzzle. Once again, thank you!!
My favorite fantasy characters with cool arcs are Luz (the owl house) and Zuko (avatar the last airbender). Zuko's redemption arc and Luz's arc in finding herself and what she truly wants in life are written so well and done in such a way that I love to rewatch them over and over again.
That story idea shared at 14:00 is an awesome idea. I really hope they write that story!
In my novella my protagonist is meant to become less likable as the book progresses, and intentionally have the readers turn against the protagonist and their actions. It features a negative character arc, where protagonist becomes more of a antagonist figure, going from good to evil due to childhood trauma
I covered writing negative arcs a lot in this video - hope it's useful!
If well made, it's quite a good ideia. But a bit dangerous. I hope you have other characters the Reader can attach themselves to, otherwise they can feel quite lost. I remember some Sanderson comments about subverting expectations and plot twists, saying that its a very difficult thing to pull off, but if done well can be amazing. Hope you can do it!
@@rhuanv My book is split into two parts, separated by a large time skip. The first half follows the protagonist as a pre teen child, and the latter half as a young adult, with all the negative arc happening in this latter portion, after a traumatic incident at the midpoint, after their father, the king of an empire, is murdered by their jealous, bitter uncle. It is essentially a retelling of Shakespeare's Hamlet
I have a love interest, who is meant to be very likable, but who gets murdered by the protagonist (who is female btw, with a male love interest) shortly after a lovemaking scene.
@@unicorntomboy9736 Heyoo Praying Mantis ftw!
Just fyi, you're mixing up protag/antag with hero/villain. They're often conflated, but not strictly speaking the same thing. A protagonist is the one who acts, or the character we're following, and an antagonist is the one who acts against, or the opposition to the protagonist. A hero, meanwhile, is a character who does heroic things (albeit not always necessarily for good reasons) and a villain is a character who does villainous things (albeit not necessarily for bad reasons). If your protagonist is villainous, e.g. Walter White from Breaking Bad, then the heroic character trying to stop them, e.g. Hank Schrader, is the antagonist. Of course, the protag/antag relationship can get even more complicated, but the protagonist is always just whoever is the main point of view character. It's not a values judgement. It's just the person whose story is being told.
This is the best (or at least most useful) video on character arcs that I’ve seen. It’s also the longest, which might be why.
I have watched sections of this videos over and over again. It's so helpful and I've never thought of character arcs the way that you've layer them out for me and it honestly makes so much sense. The flat arc thing makes so much sense and because of this video I now know how to apply a flat arc instead of forcing a positive character arc on my mc (which would have just ended up being unnatural). I think this is one of the best videos around. I can't believe the amount of times I've watched this on repeat. It's beyond helpful. Thank you so much.
Glad to help!
The density and specificity of your advice is so much different than the toothless advice I see on so many writing videos. This is actually a great model for lots of things, I'm going to prompt my players in my next D&D campaign to use this during character creation.
Can't believe this is available free on UA-cam. You're the best!
I just found your channel today. I’m not a fantasy writer or a novelist. I’m currently working on a comic, in fact the first piece of writing I’ve tried. I’m still in the development stage and your videos have already helped me iron out some ideas. Thanks, and I really hope my story comes out as good as it is in my head!
I am working on a graphic novel myself and this is my first time writing for what I am drawing. Tough stuff, right? Great resources like this certainly help me!
Wishing you the best, brother!
Also writing a comic. Really excited to have such helpful instruction walking us through making a decently functional story
I first came to the writing community to write. Then I came to animate. Now, I am coming for both
That's my story
@@Makememesandmore I hope I can animate my comic one day. But I need to write the story first.
Omg flat arcs are a thing I wish I knew earlier.... this has helped immensely. Here I am worried that my characters not changing much, aside from knowledge. I've been worried it's not enough but she does impact her friends and the world. Thanks
Mary Sue?
Jed youre such a gift 🙏🏻 thoughtful analysis and a nice conversational tone all in one, just what I needed to get the creativity unjammed
I've watched a lot of videos about plots and characters... I would say this is the best I have seen. Thank you!
This applies to about any fiction and explains so much about the dullness in mine. I just saw it a first time to understand it. Now I will go through it a second time and directly apply it to my current story.
12:18, you just perfectly explained one of the stories in my world
Sometimes, I think of better characters in my daydreams than I do in my more active mind thinking about characters. This was pretty helpful to flesh out ideas. Cool vid!
Thanks for the great video. I have written countless short stories, tried building fantasy and sci-fi worlds, and scribbled parts of stories here and there, but this video has helped me a lot. It gave me newfound inspiration and made me pick apart my different fantasy worlds, pull new inspiration and have a clear story in my head now. I will definitely use the notes I've taken from this video and try following the 9-point story structure along with the arc components.
Hey Jed, could you maybe make a video on writing short fiction and short stories and how the process and method differs from writing longer fiction like novellas, novels or entire series?
The key thing with short stories, is starting late and ending early, preferably with an ambiguous, open ended ending
I have recently written a Lovecraftian cosmic horror short story using this principle
@@unicorntomboy9736Yeah that makes sense. I suppose my issue is that most of the ideas I have always seem too big to fit into a short fiction frame or like I’m not utilising them to their full potential by trying to write them in a shorter format. I like writing long fiction but I also want to write short fiction to practice actually finishing the things I start. What makes an idea suitable for a short story to you or how do you shrink down or refine ideas to fit a shorter format?
This is gold Jed, really good stuff. Loving the extra long video 😁
A terrific video, well explained, with useful examples and just the right level of detail. You do us all a great service
I knew a major video was in the works!
I've give this a listen at work. My protagonists start off with flaws that they learn to overcome throughout the story but readers have complained that those flaws make them unlikeable at the start of the book.
Hoping this will help!
Are they aware of those flaws? I think that generates sympathy for a character if, say, they're constantly rude, but you can tell they know they're being rude and don't like that about themselves but can't seem to help it.
Or, say, a cowardly character that you can see struggling trying to convince themselves to take a brave action, but ultimately failing.
Same I want to write characters who have attitude problems without being insufferable. I worry about that.
As cliche as it is, a "save the cat" moment could help. Doesn't necessarily have to be anything big, could just be a small indication that at least one of the characters has some good in them. A kind word or gesture to someone, a hint of regret after doing something bad. Anything, however little, to show to the reader that even if the character is for the most part unlikeable at the start, there is some good in them that might come out later in a bigger way.
I am completely new to writing stories but have been slowly building a world in my free time for the last 4 years. I’ve finally defined enough aspects to make a start on my story and these videos are fantastic. Thanks very much!
Thanks for this. I do think adding "Purpose" to your Axis of Desire could really strengthen it. Some of the other desires somewhat fall into the same realm, but some characters could also want to discover who they are and why they're on this Earth (or whatever world they're in). That alone could also lead them down some interesting paths.
Good call
Jed, my good sir, it's so nice to see your channel grow. This video is some of your finest work! Any chance on reviving your fantasy podcast? It would be so great!!
Maybe "More antagonist pressure" could be "The antagonist mirror" or similar. The way you describe it, after the midpoint being a time for the protagonist to view themselves in the mirror, the other side is then reflected by the antagonist. Just a thought =)
What an incredible video! You do such a good job of tying the pieces of story together. Thanks Jed!
I love that all of your videos have examples from other books or movies to help explain your points (like the Harry Potter example). Thank you for making great videos! :)
Remember, arcs don't have to be unidirectional. You can have characters "trade" parts of themselves, gaining new negatives while also gaining positives, and you can have them lose almost everything that makes them good and slowly rebuild it or gain something new. Houseki no Kuni, Arifureta, and Tokyo Ghoul come to mind.
I'm doing something similar with one of my protagonists. She is a body snatcher that starts the story not really living or viewing itself as "real", but also not really hurting people - changing a body only when she needs to and usually takes it from someone that's dying anyway. The other protagonists convince it to give living a try, and it fully adopts the identity of this girl. Anyway, she turns out to rather enjoy being a person and having friends and the likes. So, positive arc, right? Maybe, but we also see her willingness to be a monster to protect her new identity abd friends. When she gets injured enough to destroy her body, she hunts down a minor villain that was kinda similar to her, gets her shapeshifting ex to sculpt the poor girl's body to be identical to her, and then murders her to assume her form. That's objectively monstrous, and she would not have done it earlier in the story
Huh. Arifureta spoken about in a positive light. Now that's something I have actually never seen before in my life LMAO
You are so helpful.
I am so grateful.
This is my favorite one of your videos! Watched it multiple times. Thank you so much, this is so extremely helpful!
This video helped me so much! The way you worded it and your visuals and examples really made me understand a lot of this way better. Other’s videos made sense to me and I wanted to use them but my brain didn’t comprehend how to use them for my own story. This I can use. Thanks so much!
I will be going thru the upcoming cohort and this video was wonderful. I saw this arc develop in one of my 3 protagonists and it's slowly developing in the other 2. This video really helped define a good character arc for rising to the challenge or succumbing to it. Looking forward to going deeper into this.
Looking forward to working with you, Daniel!
Jed herne is amazing. Ibe really been able to evolve my storytelling.
WOW! What a masterclass on character´s arc. New follower here!
This was really helpful! As you were mapping out each type of arc, I realized that my main character is actually dealing with a negative arc, but at the final test, she returns to embracing the truth rather than rejecting it (not quite a flat arc)! One of the minor characters has a flat arc, but it is not positive; he is a narcissist and one of the main influences guiding the negative arc. Then as you continued explaining, my story flopped arcs again. There is a major event that happens before the story which will come up later on, but we actually start with the main character in a darker place as a result of a series of events following that event... so it's actually a positive arc if you start there. Thank you for helping me work through this! My story wasn't making sense looking at positive arc tips, since I was looking at the full story including back story! I was worried that my story was inherently flawed and going to be boring or unbelievable. I have new ideas to work with to make this work.
Anyone curious, there is a greatly exhaustive introduction to creating characters by David Corbett called "The Art of Character" and "The Character Compass" I've been rereading.
In the Art, David develops over 28 chapters who the artist as a whole is and their observations of their own character to bring to empathetic life the characters they conceive. He emphasizes scenic writing especially in most exercises that end a chapter.
In the Compass, David focuses in on the characters motivation, their desire. The epilogue alone really elevated my appreciation not just for storytelling to others, but especially what it means to me. As well, exercises at the end of each chapter.
Thank you so much for giving flat character arcs at least some attention. I feel they are widly underrepresented in story teaching space.
Thank you so much for this! The overview of positive, negative, and flat arcs is so useful! While most of my novels are positive character arcs, I want to write a series that would be Sherlock-like. Understanding the flat arc helps me understand how that would work. Thank you ❤💜💟
wow. that was very insightful. You have my thanks
This is great man, huge help for my current novel.
I forgot I had Dark Souls 3 open and the menu music was playing for a good portion of this video. The entire time I was sitting here thinking "dang this guy really enjoys his theatrics"
Excellent video, Jed. Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
I really like unlikable characters types because they have so much potential, they are my favorites. Even characters I truly despised at the start, like the MC of Lot 36 in the cabinet of curiosities, I still ended up rooting for. It might be the hardest type of character to make the public relate to, but I think they might also be the ones that would gain the most kudos if you manage to pull it off.
One of the characters in my book has the ghost, lie, want, need, truth arc, he is a vampire hunter who is haunted by the death of his mother at the hands of a vampire (the ghost) so he's dedicated his life to destroying vampirekind (the want) he wears a mask and doesn't tell his friends why he's doing this (the lie) but he needs to let go of the past and see past his hatred of vampires (the need)
Near the end of the series he will reveal the truth to his friends, don't know how yet.
And my favorite fantasy character arc is Peril from Wings of Fire.
So inspiring and helpful - thank you from Germany 🇩🇪
@Jed - your character arcs in Kingdom of Dragons are awesome.
I found my favorite is the recent trend of having main characters who support a flat arc in the sense the narrative centers on how they affect others, while also following their own arc as a subplot. Ex: One Punch Man or Chainsaw Man.
in One Punch Man, Saitama successfully achieved his want, but still hasn't recognized his need, so he feels empty and stuck, but the fact that his accomplishments completely disrupt the nature of the world around him, we see how his presence affects the ensemble cast of heroes and villains we meet along the road. In turn, slowly but surely, these people he affects are helping him realize that while he thought he had reached the end by obtaining his want,he has so much further to go, given what he needs is still ahead of him in life.
In Chainsaw Man, Denji is a terrible pos person, but tragically is that way as a result of his lot in life. His issue, is he's spent so long without accomplishing a single want in his life, he hasn't obtained the emotional maturity to perceive his need. as such, his comparably anomalous personality and desire affect those around him in interesting and compelling ways, especially the current arc of the manga,of which I will not spoil.
Well... my writing for characters especially my MC is always centered around the fact at how much I can break down my character, what is the lowest point they can reach and what they do when they reach that point. I'm definitely a brutal writer as I implement everything to absolutely tear my characters down so I can see them at their lowest so then if I want them to have a redemption arc (which I often don't have) then it will hit so much harder. Also I firmly believe that you know a character most by seeing them at their lowest and at doing something insanely mundane or a glimpse into their daily life. That's just my opinion though.
I totally agree, our characters show their true colors under the least and highest pressure. Breaking your characters also helps you and the reader understand the fundamental nature of those characters.
This may your best video yet. Lot of great stuff in here. :)
03:37 _"....Plot IS Character! Character IS Plot! ....How they [ the characters ] choose IS Who They Are...."_
-- Robert McKee [[ à la his rightly renowned book, 'Story: Substance, Structure, Style, and the Principles of Screenwriting' ]]
McKee's certainly a big influence on my writing. Good pick up
@Jed_Herne im listening to his book on character now. Did you like any book more than the others? So far, I'm learning some from Character, but not as much as I hoped
Thanks for this video. While i have most of things figured out, putting my characters and the story in this perspective really streamlined tgings a lot.
Truly inspiring. Damnit. Going to rewrite my main characters and villains now :)
One idea I'll add to the pile: I'm planning to have a pair of interacting arcs for two romantically connected (and disentangled, and reconnected) characters who are all resolved and happy and together by the end of book one. But after that, they remain together - and thus they share a common arc from that point on. Maybe their marriage vows should include "...and so I will bind my character arc to yours, till epilogue do us part..."
There are actually plot driven stories where the characters are in service of the plot not the other way around, an example would short stories like Issac Azemov short sci-fi stories, the characters exist only to facilitate the cool/interesting/surprising plot and whatever twist happens at the end that delivers the moral of the story, the characters themselves are pretty much disposable and we don't get to know much about them.
You could also think of something like the Foundation books as a plot driven book, the story spans thousands of years and the focus is mainly on exploring the grand themes and concepts behind the story not the characters themselves.
I'd say Revenge stories and spy stories usually have a static character who doesn't really have an arc (James Bond, Whoever LN Played in Taken, etc). I think that is what most people are talking about when saying character arc v plot primarily, and which one you want to shift between.
Another thing that I fully understand and can apply t my story from now on
So many useful tips, backed up by solid examples... I loved it. Thank you! (Best Served Cold is such a nice book, now I want to read it again :D )
Watched this multiple times 🙏🏼
Thank you Jed!
I really loved this video, I had revisited a plan for a novel I was going to write but didn’t, I’m going to work on it now, if anyone finds this in the sea of comments and wants updates, tell me, I’d be glad to give you an update friend 😊
Thank you so much for mentioning that the ghost doesn’t have to be traumatic. I’ve been struggling with my character cause I thought she had to have a bad experience.
Wonderful set of lessons, and I appreciate the work you’re doing for writers around the world. Not that it takes away from any of that, but I disagree completely with your point about Indiana Jones as a flat arc (no ark-related puns intended) example.
It’s my favorite film because of the thematic complexity wrapped inside a wonderfully fun package with maximum popular appeal, and I think you (or whoever reads this) may see my point that it sounds like you missed about one of your favorite movies - which is fun!
Indy’s belief about the value of the Ark as a historical artifact at the beginning is tied to his beliefs about several fundamental themes - all of which perseverate around reliance and trust… or as some would put it, “faith.”
Indy doesn’t have any belief in the divine powers that are driving the Nazis search for the Ark; he merely respects its historical value. Likewise, he appreciates the people in his life, from Jock the pilot to Brody to Sallah to Marion and (presumably) Abner Ravenwood - they are all valuable, but he has a superficial appreciation for them at the start of the film, a lack of commitment to them for the sake of his impassioned pursuit of adventure and symbols of meaningful value.
Belloq tells him the truth at the beginning when he says they are the same, despite Indy’s apparently more honorable intentions. But Belloq is right, at least in the thematic sense.
Each of the key supporting characters all represent a different aspect of belief or disbelief in others and of higher purpose or power,
Each of the people in his circle of trust does something to betray his trust, albeit in human and understandable ways, from the snake in the plane to Sallah… until Marion reverses this trend, at great risk to herself.
Scene after perfect scene, both cinematically and thematically, we see him escaping impossible odds and brushing up against success, only to slide into another hopeless circumstance of failure, Indy finally learns to lean into believing in something as he pursues the heroic objectives - it is his belief and the way that he finally understands that leaning into belief is the thing he had been trying to do in every aspect of his life and adventure, but he was only putting his toes in the water and finding it cold.
In the end, it is his belief that the Ark does in fact have the power it was fabled to have that allows him to escape the most impossible situation yet, and finally save Marion.
I’m not a religious person, but it’s a perfect expression of many forms of faith and trust and acceptance, and I think it’s exactly the opposite of a flat arc.
No clue if anyone will read this ramble months after this video is posted, but thanks again for sharing your insights, all of which I agree are critical to good writing, even if I disagree on particular examples or interpretations of them.
Cheers!
I think one of the best ways to learn writing is to study the 3 act story structure and then trying to make sense of all the storyaspects like character, tension, plot and how they effect each other
WONDERFUL VIDEO, JED ❤!
I have the bones of a story I've been writing off-and-on for quite some time, though more off than on. And it was a little uncanny when you were laying out the Ghost Archetypes because my main character's ghost fits into 7 out of 10 of the categories you listed.
Wow, you put so much work into this Video. Trank you very much!
Just what I needed I’m doing edits on my novel this helps. Thanks man!!!
I’m thinking about applying these character arc insights to American politics and polarities. The psychologies at work here help make sense of the ascents and descents, the fervor and relentlessness, the tragedies and farces, the strange power dynamics.
Excellent!!! Thank you!
Can you talk about the Classical Epic Genre and how we can adapt this genre of writing? Examples: Lusiads, Aeneid, Odyssey, Iliad. And can you give your opinion on these works? For example about the Lusiadas? (it's smaller) I hear few people talking about it.
Please ❤🙏
17:56 the 8th one is kim dokja {btw love your videos, they help me so much}
I think "the last of us" deos something interesting here, especially, Jeols character arc. The point where either the truth or the lie wins, is left open and its kind of a negative change arc, but also kind of flat. I would not even know where to begin here. I love stories like this, because it resolve the story and it shows, that rules in writing are allways there to be broken. You have to know, what is best for youre story.
Robert Heinlein wrote that there are 3 main plots in character-driven stories. Boy Meets Girl (self-explanatory), The Little Tailor (underdog beats the odds), and The Man Who Learned Better, which is the one this video focuses on. Every story I've ever read (and enjoyed) uses at least one of these themes. In fact, I would go so far as to say that any story that doesn't make use of any of them isn't really a story at all.
Very few videos on yt have deserved a Like more than this one! Brilliant.
Glad you liked it!
Theme is concept. Moral is message.
What do you do if you don't know if you're gonna write Book 2, but if you do, you wanna keep your options open? Or should I just stick to one book, then I look at a different part of my world for Book 2? I'm indecisive and I'd rather just let an external source help me decide
Could you ever talk about character arcs in the span of a series birrger than 3 books?
Or maybe about characters, especially the pov of MCs with some mental illness like depression?
Thanks for your videos, i always learn so much from them!
I should have checked how long the video was before settling in to watch. I'll have to finish this later.
Not the topic of this video, but I don't agree on Ned's Ghost. I think it's Robert's Rebellion as a whole, although that's from the perspective of someone who has read beyond the Game of Thrones. Ned's killer isn't honour or his uncompromising nature, it's his complacency.
The willingness to suffer vulnerability for the benefit of others or your future self is symptomatic of strength, but vulnerability itself is not "a form of strength". It's deliberate weakness which you can allow because of your compensating strength.
This is a great advice! Keep up your good work! 😁
Fantastic video! Very educational!❤
Wonderful Video! I was just wondering: what if the "lie" of the character is no lie at all, and is just their want for meaning in life just right after they've lost their meaning in their lives?
I'd ask if you are willing to write them being wrong or mistaken about what they want. Not the concept of wanting a meaning to their life, but what they have to do to get there... Coming of age stories, by definition, are about young characters finding meaning in their lives, but that doesn't change the need to explore their worldview, prejudices, biases. Even the things that make them strong can blind them.
Pixar's Mr. Incredible knew exactly what he wanted out of his life until one law changed, and everything that made him important suddenly made him a liability. That doesn't mean the story doesn't also include acknowledging his biases. (In fact, Pixar has written a lot of older characters who were confident they already had their lives figured out, and taking them out of their comfort zone explored how their strengths built bubbles that insulated and enabled their biases. Joy, Sully, Woody, etc.)
Three cheers to Jed for saving me time and error
Vidio yang sangat membantu. Saya jadi penasaran. Kenapa orang Amerika begitu hebat dalam keilmuan mereka, meskipun di masalah yang sepele.
Bedankt
My protagonist is destined to kill the antagonist, he at first is ambitious to do so but throughout the story he realises that he cannot do this and is constantly in a conflict to kill him or not, as killing the antagonist will save the others. In the last battle with the antagonist he decides not to kill him, so this decision results in his victory over the antagonist. Is it a good plot?
Would it be possible to have the magic system design contest be an annual event? I found your channel because of that contest and was super bummed that I wasn't able to participate.
14:10 That sounds like a coming-of-age story. Typical when a character has a positive outlook of the world (ignorance) then reality changes that point of view (this is often seen in children becoming adults hence "coming of age" title)
Question: how many main/side characters need stories arcs? Does every main/character need a story arc?
Well i plan a story with crossing Arcs. There are two main characters, from wich one start very very dark, and the other very very light and the one main character goes up and the other goes down and all across the story they Fight and my plan is that the reader starts to root for the one main character to rooting for an understanding to rooting for the other main character.
Omg this is so useful, ty sm❤