6.5 Creedmoor vs .308 Win - BALLISTIC GEL TEST
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2024
- Lights, camera, BANG! Introducing Cartridge Talks - a brand new series from Vortex where we answer life’s greatest cartridge-related questions. In this, the inaugural episode, Mark Boardman, and Ryan Muckenhirn pit the 6.5 Creedmoor against the .308 Winchester in a head-to-head, ballistics gel-induced bullet battle. Penetration to drop and drift, and a heck of a lot more, they use science and gunpowder to evaluate these popular cartridges. Which one wins the day? Watch to find out.
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I shoot a 308 because I have for 40 plus years, it’s always done what I needed. I only have 600 yards to shoot so I’ll keep shooting my 308. I’m sure the 6.5 is a fine round. Shoot what makes you happy.
This is a comment I appreciate. Shoot what you want and love. I have both a 6.5 Creedmoor and a 308 Winchester and love shooting them both.
I agree. I have always liked .308 and have a few pieces in that chambering. And now I have a 7 PRC that may become the next sliced bread thing for me. Some might say that is overkill for a whitetail at less than 300 yards. But it will do the job and always have enough energy. And that is also why I use the Precision Hunter for that one (175 gr ELD-X.)
But my .308 rifles have good accuracy and various appetites. One likes 150 gr, another likes 165 grain, another 168 gr, and yet another that likes 180 grain.
Shoot the gun you like that does what you want and never mind the naysayers. We will never run out of naysayers, we can only give them some distance and keep up with our own happiness.
@@itsjustme7777 Agreed, I only entered this Precision Rifle shooting a couple years ago and just picked 6.5 CM because the guys I shoot with were all getting those rifles, both cartridges are great whichever one chooses.
find a 150 grain bullet in 6.5 and you'll have less wind drift. You'll be throwing the same mass downrange.
@@neglectfulsausage7689 no. 208 grain 308 off the shelf ammo is readily available .... and by basically all accounts, it's stable with 1/10 twist. It's.not even close. They are two totally different cartridges. 6.5 + 308 both have a place. And they are vastly different. One has less than two thirds the recoil of the other...... but one can hunt any animal south of Canada.
I'm glad that they take community suggestions seriously and actually do them. So many UA-camrs/companys don't.
Great 🎉
I have to say, I've never shot a 29"-36" wide deer. Wound channel diameter and energy upon impact, I think, are more important than gel penetration length.
The 308 is the "old grizzly man that drinks whiskey" while the 6.5 is the "well groomed beard and flannel wearing millenia that drinks craft beer".
I thought the old grizzly man used a 30-06 :-)
You have also never shot a deer made of ballistic gel. Bone will deflect, deform and slow down those bullets upon entry where that extra penetration will be beneficial.
@dsmith4901 you have a 6.5, don't you??? smh...
Comparison fail. 140 in the 6.5 vs 150 of the 308...come on. The 168 is the closest competitor to the 140 in BC and weight relative to weight range within the caliber. Then you throw a super light copper 130 at a great speed while going heavier in the 308. That should have been a 150 copper.
The outcome would have, most likely, been repeated but it would have been a better comparison.
Thank you for this comment. It was an important one.
Just finished a long range shooting class from 1000 yards to 1 miles in Utah. Understood why 6.5 CM is superior beyond 600 yards but most of us can't even find a 600 yards range near us and we hunt in much shorter distance. So where is the advantage of 6.5CM other than in a target range > 600 yards?
I use both. As far as hunting. As a big game guide in colorado I will say it seems like the 6.5 typically zips through before it has time to expand. Chased and lost quit a few and based of the elk we chased over a mile (no exaggeration, tough animals) the entry and exit were pinky sized.
Caliber choice aside....... you're clearly using the wrong bullet if you're not seeing expansion. The all new rage of uber bonded and high BC bullets and almost created more issues than it has solved. If you're rifle will shoot it, then grab Partitions and cure all your concerns over lack of expansion.
I used a 300 win mag and that is vastly superior over either of the two smaller cartridges. Its got a flatter trajectory and has MUCH higher energy delivery. If you are not winning with the 308 or 6.5 go for the 300 win mag. Its in a different class.
Entry and exit don't tell the whole story. You have to cut the animal open and see what the damage looks like inside. Partitions, which have long been considered superb bullets, also leave pinky sized entry and exit wounds but are devastating in between.
So many great bonded bullets that perform as well or better than the partitions with much higher bc. I know it’s cool to be old school but much better performing bullets these days. Probably the most significant development in shooting last 25 years? Bullets no question
@@sas_za6305 if it IS in a different class, then it's not really a valid comparison.
Please circle back and show us the bullets recovered from the gel. Expanded diameters, retained weight, etc. Inquiring minds want to know! Thank you, great job.
Yes please! I need to see those bullets.
YES!
Ask and you shall receive. You can check out the recovered bullets and more in todays podcast. Thanks for watching!
Mark B.
Watching it now, thanks!
Does wound channel give some advantage to 308?
I read that data differently! If a deers lung cavity is 18" across, the 6.5 only emitted 1/2 of it's remaining energy inside the deer, while the 7.62 left 2/3rds of it's remaining energy inside that same animal. That is advantage 308 not 6.5.
Exactly.
The lead 308 won.
Keep crying
@@titomish5914 Why would he cry? He's stating facts based on real physics... at realistic hunting ranges the .308 is faster and dumps more energy into the target with a wider wound channel.
Exactly. Permanent wound cavity is way more important than penetration.
Spectacular production quality, great scripting, it flows nicely. The pacing is perfect and the knowledge content and real world ammo use makes this series a winner. Thanks for your continued commitment to excellence!
I must disagree with the decision that 6.5 won the terminal performance category. On all the ballistic gel targets, the permit wound cavity is visibly larger by a significant margin, less so with the copper bullets, but still more extensive. Penetration is nice for blood trails, but it should not be the deciding factor when considering terminal performance. FMJ bullets have excellent penetration but no expansion, so hunters should not select them for use on animals.
Indeed
The real story is when that heavier 308 Bullet hits bone, will if penetrate better than the 6.5 Creedmore? The answer is YES!
True. It would be interesting to see a full-spectrum, all inclusive test. Maybe using hog cadavers? Go through as many "what if" scenarios as possible like: Hhat if it hits bone? What if the animal is quartering towards/away? Through the breastplate? Spine/neck shots?
Probably tough to get EVERY question answered, but enough to give is a good idea.
I dont want a grizzly to have a blood trail to follow , "after he eats me" . I want my LARGE bullet to STOP him , BEFORE , he sinks his teeth into my spine .......please. Hence the definition of "TERMINAL BALLISTICS"
Try using a 200 grain Swift A-Frame in the 308, or a well designed Terminal Ascent or Federal's Trophy Bonded bullets and see the difference in performance! Those bullets will penetrate bone Very Well! A 30 caliber 200 grain Swift A-Frame would take down a Grizzly Bear, but would I want to try that with a 6.5 Creedmore and any of it's bullets? Probably Not! 🤷♂️
The two points for the .308 make it tough to beat in real world application. That stuff is everywhere because its been around for so long. During the lockdowns, it was very difficult to get anything at all where i live, but .308 could be found here and there.
That being said, ive got items chambered in each of these and they are both awesome.
This is probably the only thing that is actually a good point, and I take reloading parts as part of the availability “bucket”.
The .308 was available because everyone else was buying the 6.5 cm. 😉
I love the fact y’all gave the viewers what they asked for. Caliber comparisons should be a new thing!
I agree! I asked for this comparison a couple of months ago on another video. I felt a little foolish asking as a newbie to the 6.5 world but was pleasantly surprised to see them do it. I'm sure they had lots of requests for it from other guys trying to get the best caliber for their hunting needs.
Great job! What a way to change up your discussions about cartridges. I was surprised at the distance a copper bullet traveled in the ballistics gel.
I bought a .308 during the "Great ammo shortage" , i was actually looking hard at .270 but there wasn't any ammo...6.5 Cm rifles but not much ammo to feed it , there was .308 ammo in almost every place i looked in store and on web , happy with it....also bought a Vortex optic for it.
The same could not be said for 5.56. From what I remember (I'm trying to forget), as soon as any hit, it got snapped up. I didn't have a 308 shooter at the time so I wasn't looking, but I'm glad to hear it was available. Now I have an excuse to do a barrel nut setup and get a 308 barrel ;)
I was really looking forward to this one.. Exceeded my expectations!! Stellar presentation, I really enjoy Ryans meticulous breakdown on all cartridge talks. 👍👍👍 Let’s get some more gel and go another round..
Thanks for the watch! Stay tuned for more gel-shooting action!
Mark B.
Excellent video 👍 The final result probably shows that the 6.5 is more capable than the haters give it credit for!
Well done gentleman. I really enjoy your cartridge talks. But this takes it to the next level. Keep up the great work. Id really like to see more of these test comparisons
Production on this is amazing, great job to everyone working on it
Your cartridge talks are great. Great information, great thoughts and opinions. Please keep them coming.
This is exactly the quality of review I want to see. Excellent video.
Awesome job guys. Please keep these coming.
I’m very pumped for this, this is one of my favorite podcasts, love the video option.
Thanks for watching! We’re just gettin’ started 😉
Awesome video! I hope y’all continue this series
well done vortex staff, hope to see more in the future, it all comes down to what out of many variables that are our favorite in cartridge selection is according to purpose and needs
Barrel life is a factor, 308 is nearly double vs 6.5. Also, it would be nice to see the gel on a load cell to measure the delivered "punch"
Larue says 10k barrel life on both their 6.5 creed and .308. Where are you seeing double at?
The presentation was a game show type cringe worthy experience. It’s hilarious and I love it. Well done y’all.
Guys, this was AWESOME! Packed with practical information. Love this!
I am Fan of these Cartridge Talks.
Waiting for the next chapter.
Thank you.
Great job on the video! I’d rather lean on the .308. The versatility in bullet weights and availability of ammo is a good thing.
Very professional, l think they did a great job. Next time 270 win vs 6.5 PRC ?
Great video. I'm glad to see you do the testing. On a side note, you guys have amazing customer service. I am technologically challenged, and you guys helped me get my 4000GB up and running. Can't say thank you enough.
Great job guys, enjoying watching your talks. Keep it up
DAMN BOYS really kicking things up a notch! I’m all for it this is awesome
Very professiona,l they did a great job. Next time 270 win vs 6.5 PRC ?
I love this. More gel tests!!
I love these videos. As someone who grew up on 308 and 243 for hunting. I love seeing these side by sides that show evidence based testing to help us all choose between tried and true and more modern cartridges.
Absolutely amazing! Great job!
Solid video gentlemen. I would love to see more videos on terminal effects of bullets: minimum velocity required for expansion of a variety of bullets, especially copper, as well as, how bullets react through various mediums by adding bone and hide at the front of the gel block. Keep up the great work.
I definitely lean toward the 308. Much more availability and then reloading opens up a whole world that 6.5 can’t touch, big heavy bullets with amazing b.c. numbers. 6.5 is a fantastic flat shooter but availability is way more important to me especially after the last few years we of ammo shortages we just went through
There are tons of 6.5mm/.264" bullets for reloading. Maybe 7.62mm/.308 has a few more, but not to a degree that matters, either way you have more than enough choices to fit any need.
@@eclipsegst9419 Its not even close. .308 has 3 times the bullet options and they are produced in much greater numbers, especially during shortages. You can also turn up 308 much more when reloading. Expect an extra 150-200 fps compared to the 6.5 you will maybe gain 50fps.
@@Nick-sx6jm I didn't deny there was more, just that it doesn't matter. 6.5 match bullets are like spears. 140 grain soft or hollow points will take any game that 308 will, and theres a bunch of lighter or heavier stuff if you want to tinker. Not sure where you get this 3x more though. Every site i checked it was like 1.5x at most. I can load my 6.5x55 well over stock loadings in a large ring Mauser reciever.
Grain for grain a 6.5 bullet outperforms the .30 caliber. You have to shoot way heavier .30 bullets to get similar bcs a 6.5 bullet can offer. Also the .308 was available during the shortage because everyone else was buying all the 6.5 cm 😉
You guys used a bullet weight on the lower end of spectrum for the 308 and a bullet weight at the higher end of the spectrum in the 6.5cm to compare drop and drift. I wonder how it would look with a 165gr out of the 308. The velocities would have been about the same too, bit BCs would have been a little closer together. Just food for thought.
Always enjoy watching your and listening to your videos guys! This one was fun to watch! Let’s see more of this. 308 and 30-06?
You need to do more of these comparisions. I would like to see 7PRC vs 300WM that would be a cool one.
Great show! I have a 6.5CM, but I’ve shot plenty of both. I’ll say if I was big game hunting I’d feel better with a 308. But both are great cartridges!
So would you prefer the 308 over 6.5?
@@madebyamerica81 maybe just for versatility with the heavier bullets. But it’s a close call.
Great video. Always enjoy the well balanced content in the videos you guys produce. I liked the fact that you used 100 pound blocks, and used a fresh block for each shot. Using the heavier blocks really helped stabilize them at bullet impact, which reduced interference of the bullet trajectory through the medium, and made it easier to see the projectiles during the slow motion sequences. Using a fresh block for each test was nice from an objective standpoint, as it eliminated the potential for artifactual changes in the medium introduced from prior bullet impacts, and as a viewer I didn’t have to distinguish between other visually distracting bullet paths. The cartridge nerd in me would really like to see a comparison between 280 ai and the 6.5 PRC. Do the reloading manuals really tell the whole story, or will the media performance show a clear separation with respect to performance?
Would be cool to see the difference between 30-06 and 308.
If anything I think it would be even closer, especially if they only use factory ammo like they did here.
Shootability- .308
Versatility- .308
Accessibility- Tie
Drop & Drift- .30-06
Terminal Performance- .30-06
I 100% agree that the 6.5 has superior ballistics however wish you would have used a 180 grain bullet in the 308 to demonstrate penetration. A 180 grainer will have a much better SD. Also would have been nice to see a better bullet being used like an accubond or partition. I think most hunters are better off with a 308. You can hunt larger game with the 308.
I have seen certain loads for 6.5 (very rare) up to 160 grains. I wish they would have found rounds with similar weights and ballistics than just the average round used in each platform. Show me what a 147 from look like. Or what a 160 from each could be.
@@rjperez2617 the 6.5 will always win in penetration when comparing similar weight bullets due to SD.
Superior ballistics on a target range. Unless you are shooting antelope or smaller game at long ranges, the 308 is as good as the 6.5 CM, and has better bullets for larger game. And you're not using one of those .600BC bullets on deer sized game inside 300 yards.
This is true but a 180 will penetrate further. It might close the gap. Numbers and theories are great. But you use ballistics gel to test those numbers. SD is part of penetratation but it is not the only variable. Slow heavy bullets are known for their destructive power. A .30 180 grain can be used on elk. Idc how good a shot you are a 147 6.5 is under kill for elk. They also only used ballistics gel. They should have put bone in the ballistics gel. This is where the 6.5 will not penetrate. With a 308 and the right bullets you can power through some bone. The 6.5 especially with the ELD-X type long range bullets are not going to hold up well.
Idk about that, and I am on your side, 06 guy, the 6.5 has taken many large game for many years like over 100. Just my thoughts.
Mark, Ryan, I'm going to have to object to the use of penetration as the primary metric by which you evaluated the terminal performance. If you'll indulge the comparison, in nuclear physics (particularly in radiology) the dissipation of energy into the target is the measure by which you evaluate effective radiation dosing (in a positive sense or a negative one). Kyle Hill has an excellent example of this on his UA-cam channel in his Half-Life Histories episode on Anatoly Burgorski taking a particle accelerator shot to the face. The key point is that in radiology, the peak of force dissipated into the target material is called the Bragg peak, and takes place right before the high energy particle (in our case, the bullet) comes to a stop and is described mathematically as an inverse relationship to it's velocity squared. The wound cavity is generated by the extreme initial interaction between the bullet's relatively high speed and the nigh relatively stationary state of the target. But, it seems to me that it's the ultimate dissipation of energy into the target that ensures that you're getting the most out of your bullet.
I get that there is a desire to ensure that you get into the target with your round, but penetrating through and through on a target really only helps in the sense of there being another hole from which blood can escape the body. But, internal blood loss is, as far as I can tell, as effective as external blood loss. I love the 6.5 CM, but from an external ballistics standpoint with regard to force on target, based on the above, I disagree strongly with your conclusion that the 6.5 CM is the better performer in terminal performance. If there's still enough energy for it to get out the other side, that's energy not dissipated into the target.
All that said, I still personally like the 6.5 CM better as a cartridge than the .308. It's easier to shoot, the available ammunition options get your target effectively just as dead, and rifles in stores are practically as available as the .308. Probably even more so - I'll tell you right out that I see far more 6.5 CM rifles in stores than .308s right now. I just can't agree that it's the objectively better of the two, even if I subjectively prefer the 6.5 CM.
Thank you for this comment. That is one of the most interesting comment I’ve ever read on a social media app. Fascinating!!!
Poking holes in viral organs is what kills game not "Force on Target" lol.
An incredibly helpful and well done video 👍🏻Thank you! I run a Tikka in 6.5 Creedmoor. Superbly done fellas!
FYI: Barrel life: The .308 wins by a nose, although it’s close enough that you can consider it a tie for all practical purposes, but 7.62 NATO is globally everywhere.
It's a different animal, but a AR10 with a chrome barrel could see 10,000 round barrel life.
I’ve heard double. Granted, when you’re shooting that much, cost of barrel shouldn’t be a consideration
Up to 8000 rounds barrel life of a .308
We NEED!!! more videos like this.
My thoughts, clearly for long range target shooting the CM has the edge. But for an all around hunting rifle I would take the 308 all day every day and twice on Sunday. First of all both of these rounds start running out of horsepower pretty fast after 500 yards. 98.5 % of all hunting is done under 500 yards with most of that under 200. And frankly many hunters have no business shooting past 300 yards at game anyway, doubt that, spend some time at the range prior to hunting season....
I believe wound channel matters as much as penetration, maybe more. I do want exit wounds which the 308 has pretty much always provided for me. Superior wound channel with an exit favors the 308. Plus for large game like elk and moose, the 308 rules between these two. And the CM offers nothing to compare to a 200 grain Nosler Partition if roaming in big bear territory.
So IMO, target goes to the CM, all around hunting is clearly 308 territory.
Agreed! Penetration is important no doubt, but so many of these type of tests seem to put way too much focus on it over things like wound channel. Given a choice of any 2 calibers/cartridges where both penetrate over 18" - 20" I'll take the one more likely to cause a bigger wound channel. It just seems like max penetration becomes unnecessary after a certain point.
Thanks for the video! Great presentation.
Excellent idea for a video. These topics will always always be popular
I would not like to take on an Eland with a 147gr 6.5 creedmoor ,but would be quite relaxed to take it on with a 168 -180gr 308 Winchester . So i quess in my opinion the 6.5 will do for plains game here in South Africa up to a wildebeest (PROVIDED pin point bullet placement) ,which makes it less versatile . I have hunted all the species in South Africa for the last 30 years using a Ruger 30.06 using 168 - 180 gr projectiles , works for me.
My 30.06 is always my go to rifle though I own and shoot often my 270 Winchester. I just picked up a 6.5 Creedmore simply because it was too good a deal to pass up and it's synthetic stock for the whitetail hunts in the rain. My others are wood stock and nicer rifles that I'd rather leave home in those conditions.
If I'm blessed enough to make it to Africa before I die (not likely) my Ruger No. 1 in 30.06 is definitely coming with me!
I don't consider penetration more important than tissue damage when looking at terminal performance, not at all. Both cartridges have enough penetration to reach vitals and, with most bullets, to reliably provide for an exit in most games from most angles. What is important is the damage the bullet causes to tissues. That's what kills. The 308 has an advantage here at reasonable distances. And putting deer skin and even a rib in front of the gel would be useful. That said, the fact is that 6.5 creedmore has slightly better ballistics but when this advantage starts making a difference, both of these cartridges are too slow (with low energies) for what i feel comfortable to use when big game hunting. 308 is a very good and versatile cartridge inside 500 yards, 6.5 is a little bit less versatile and basically the range for big games is the same. 6.5 PRC makes more sense to me. And 7 PRC, that's a sweet round. But i think most versatile rounds are 308, 7 SAUM (unfortunately almost impossible to find anywhere), 7-08, 30-06. I would pick anyone of these 4 over a 6.5 cm all day of the week.
Yeah and they are not thinking on the Energi that the 308w would Leav. If the 6.5 creed punches strate through the animal and the bullet from the 308w youst drop through that means that the 308w did leav more Energi in the animal 😀
I'm not a hunter but it seems clear that at hunting ranges BC is unimportant. Energy and therefore disruption to the vitals is important. Full penetration just means some energy was wasted. .308 seems the best all-rounder to me.
Content producers always make money off pushing the new thing so they can sell more products. But yes i agree, to your average person .308 is superior. 6.5 only wins out on people who are target shooting long range, or who are comfortable taking big game at a longer range than i find ethical/practical/necessary especially with these calibers. 308 and 30-06 are and likely always will be the only big game hunting cartridges i will ever use, plus ammo is cheaper and a lot easier to find.
@@redrock425 small variations in BC are not so important. Big variations in BC are. Using a modern, aerodynamic bullet and using a regular softpoint, both in 308, you will see more difference in ballistic than between a .308 and a flatter and more powerful round, like a 7 mm rem mag, using bullets with similar contruction.
A lot of guys aren’t hunters though so they don’t care about anything you had to say. Performance wise at the range why would I bother using a .308 when there are better and more exciting bullets to shoot that out perform a .30 calibers ballistics and shootability?
Another video knocked put of the park! Well done and thanx for the entertainment
Biggest grin on my face for this more of this please !!!!
I like the video, well done; only down side i seen in it was the actual bullets selected for comparison, they were not well suited for comparing different calibers. The gel test is for comparing penetration for the most part, but the bullets selected were not comparable for this test, when comparing penetration that is a function of energy and Sectional Density(penetration ability based on diameter to length ratio); 140gr 6.5 has a sd per hornady of .287-.293 where 150gr 308 has a sd of .226-.233, you would need appx a 190gr 308 to have equal sd and expectation of penetration when comparing the 140gr 6.5 to 308 caliber. I'm not a 308 win fan boy dispite having a couple, i personally prefer the 7mm's and have a 30-06 for moose size game, but it would of been more on equal playing field if same/similar sd bullets were used to compare penetration and state either is better. Did enjoy the venturing out of the Videoing room and changing it up some, Just my 2 cents.
Gel penetration at 400 yards would be interesting to see.
You can accomplish this by lowering powder.... Aka making bulet come out at speed it would at 400 yards. This has been accomplished by ultimate reloader. They did this for a 1000 yard estimate I believe.
Wow. This is truly my favorite channel.
Awesome content, id love to see the ballistic gel at 400-500 yards
This was a fun little look at the two cartridges. As a fan of the 6.5 Swede, .260 Rem and .308 Win, I can safely say it kills deer dead. Since deer and only be dead and not more deader, it is impossible to say which is really better. Or gooder. Or something. lol Nice vid guys.
More videos like this please! You guys rock
Love the cartridge talks.
My problem with this comparison is you seem to do the same as all comparisons of the Creed, in that for drop and drift you use a heavy for caliber 6.5 and a light to med for caliber bullet in the 308!! So BC will be much higher hence the 6.5 looks a lot better!! Also will have a higher SD for more penetration!! Not apples to apples!! Both good cartridges But!!!
I think the terminal ballistic category is hard to give to the 6.5, I know it penetrates deeper then the .308 but it's not as big of a wound cavity which helps for bleed out if you have a through and through. I love both cartridges but I'm not sure I can agree with that test.
I own both the .308 Win and the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 6.5 tends to be more accurate for me. The .308 Win was purchased due to the availability of ammunition and the history of the caliber.
Great video production, guys
Love it guys! Keep 'em coming! Educational and entertaining. Mark...where's the beard, man?!
I would have liked to see 1 more category; affordability!
LOL.........that's what I was thinking. I can still find fairly affordable (by today's standards) ammo for my .308. The main reason I haven't picked up a 6.5 is ammo cost.
I really enjoyed this video. I’m looking at getting my first bolt gun and have went back and forth between these two cartridges. I’m still leaning toward the 308 just because of the ammo availability and the cost per round. I think I’ll be able to shoot the 308 more for the same amount of money. The more I can shoot the better I will be with the rifle.
Thats one of the reasons I am so heavily invested in the .308. The differences in the two when it comes to hunting aint that much different. Been shooting for about 46 years...started with a 7mm RM, went to a 300 WM, then went to the .308 Win. The older I get the more I appreciate efficiency in performance and economy. Im a reloader and can get my brass considerably cheaper than the 6.5 CM, the difference in powder consumption is minimal and I have a huge bullet selection and load data to choose from. Hence why I havent jumped on the 6.5 CM wagon. Its a great cartridge though too!
this series has a lot of potential,,,,keep em coming. not so sure the doubters will agree but....
Would love to see this test with match ammo vs hunting ammo, especially in ballistic gel!!
Great presentation, as mentioned can't really go wrong with either one for most cases.
That being said I would rank it subjectively even though.
I would choose permanent wound cavity over penetration as long as the penetration is suitable enough to pass through vitals. Which both proved shouldn't be a problem with decent shot placement .
I also live in an area where it is likely the longest shot one would be taking is under 300 yards, with the vast majority of harvests being less than half that.
I'm sure if I lived in an area where long shots on big bodied animals were common I would prioritize performance at range.
One thing 6.5 Creedmoor lacks that .308 will always excell at is, barrel life. 2500 rounds for 6.5 Creed and 6,000+ rounds upwards of 8,000 rounds on the .308. If you shoot a lot, that can add up and save you a ton of money in barrels.
The average barrel life before losing accuracy on the 308 is 3k rounds.
Damn, you guys leveled up! SO PRO!
One last point. More penetration isn't always better.
Consider, whenever a bullet exits a target, its taking whatever energy it has left with it on exit.
My standard hunting round is a 100 grain soft point in .243 Winchester. Less overall muzzle energy, but dumps a higher percentage of that energy into the target.
Id actually take the .308 over 6.5 Creedmoor for overall energy. For what 6.5 CM excels at, I'd much rather run .243 Winchester, and if .264 was necessary, id run 260 Remington.
.338 Federal is also a great option. Especially in shorter barrel packages.
I wanna see 6.5CM, 6.5prc, 6.5-300 Weatherby put head to head.
Gel tests are tricky. Really difficult to say much about the cartridge, in general, from this limited testing.
Great video guys!
Would love a follow-up episode where you further discuss where each caliber would be a better in different applications. Could be its own follow-up mini-series!
Very well done. While the 6.5 CM comes out the overall winner, when I am hunting elk or black bear I will still lean toward the 308.
I think a more fair comparison would have been to match sectional densities and ballistic coefficients. Perhaps their approach was to be more in line with that the average hunter will purchase from a box store to hunt game with? And, if I may, for the last metric of terminal performance, I think you should measure the length and diameter of the permanent wound cavity which would give us an idea of the tissue damage done, resulting in game expiring more quickly. Penetration is good, but tissue damage cannot be neglected!
This is going to be an awesome series, I think.
I've seen several print articles, videos ect suggesting that 6.5, and 6.8 cause accelerated throat erosion cutting barrel life to about 2k rounds. As hard as I've looked, I've never found anything to refute that. By comparison the barrel of my factory M-24 (according to Remington) can be expected to last about 10k rounds. I've also seen nothing refuting that. If that's true I'd be nearly halfway to a new barrel on the 6.5. I'll stick with the. 308.
Good point! 👍
Both calibers are excellent choices and i am sure whichever you choose you should be more than satisfied.The .308 has more juice up close and the 6.5 has more past 500yds. Most hunting situations are much less than 500yds but in any case shot placement is paramount. I have taken many whitetail deer with a .223 Tompson Contender pistol and shot placement was critical, never lost one deer with this caliber.
@trevormullennix1281 The 6.5 Creedmoor bullet weight stops at 147grs, the premier bullet weight for the .308 is 168gr. Granted running a Creedmoor 147gr against a .308 in 150gr would be a closer comparison, that being said I still stand by my statement the .308 has more juice at closer distances and after 500yds its all Creedmoor in any barrel configuration. Again, most people don't attempt shots on game at that distance and either caliber should be more than enough for whitetail at typical hunting distances...not knocking the .308 or the 6.5 Creedmoor or a dozen other calibers, if it works for you it works, period!😁😎
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It would be cool to see how different their impacts look out at 300-400yrd hardly see anyone doing that.
Frontline Rejects Does on His Videos! 👌
love this!!!!!!!!!!! So much better than the old studio!!!
Great Stuff, yet again guys. I love the production extent you go to. Light boxes for gel was really cool.
Love the video en graphics, great to actually see the results.
However, if you want to test penetration between different cartridges, you need to use bullets with the same SD. 150gr 308 will always lose to 140gr 6.5, given the same bullet.
Secondly, bullet type should actually be taken into consideration when looking at the results. Powershok bullet are traditional cup and core bullets and will expand rapidly, permanent wound channel is they key here. With copper bullets though, penetration is the key consideration, it was made for it.
Yikes. Do we care about what cartridge has more penetration for hunting? The displacement from the 308 is much more impressive than the 6.5. I haven’t seen any deer that you need that much penetration. Unless we are talking about a moose.
I’m comfortable saying not everyday does the avg Joe get a shot at a moose though. At that point a 6.5 or 308 need to be the primary cartridge for moose hunting either.
I have to agree with you. Overpenetration is bad since you're not putting the energy into the target after it comes out the other end. I'd say 308 won the terminal ballistics test easily with more energy in the projectile AND transferring it into the target more effectively.
It's great that people are willing to take the time and put the effort to show some testing. However, it seems nobody is able to use the same comparable bullets for the testing; 6.5 140gr vs 308 180gr lead / 6.5 143 eldx vs 308 178 eldx and/or 6.5 120gr ttsx vs 308 150 gr ttsx barnes copper. Pretty much everybody has access to ballistic tables and figure out the numbers doing a desktop exercise. What is more challenging, requires more ressources and time is the terminal ballistic part and this is what everybody is really interested in. Penetration is great to see and easy to measure, but if it was possible to provide an electronic measurement of the wound cavity in inch3 that would be even better. And then you do it again with a 3/4 plywood in front of the gel or something like that. And do it again with reduced loads to mimic a 400 yards shot.
Listen to this guy
I have a 308. My son has the 6.5 c. He was talking about getting it. I told him to go for it. I had, at that point, read and watch a lot of positive things and told him about it. He also eead and watched a lot of positive things. He just needed a little push. He picked up a Ruger American that came with a 4 to 12 by 40 Vortex scope and now it's his go to rifle.
Fantastic video gents. One critique that Ryan mentioned in the gel analysis: control for sectional density. If you run cartridges of comparable sectional densities (I.e. +/- 0.02 ish) you should get more of an apples to apples comparison in terms of relative velocity and penetration.
Yes. I understand that they went for commonly used bullet weights, but sectional density should be accounted for in direct comparisons.
I know you guys are busy doing your normal jobs at Vortex, but I feel like if you went full in to the podcasts and videos, you could grow these channels into something very profitable.
Great comparison. Well done gents.
Badass studio and set up!!
Im surprised with the 6.5 performance over the 308. Makes me want a 6.5 even more now.
Do it, you wont regret it. My AR-10 is a 6.5 rifle and I'm in love with it. I've also got a .308 bolt gun but the 6.5 is just a lot better to shoot.
Penetration isn't the only factor though, and in terms of tissue damage (and ability to punch through bone) a comparably built .308 will be superior at reasonable hunting ranges.
I’m not sure if penetration should be the primary deciding factor. At the end of the day wound cavity is extremely important as well.
I personally go with a 308 for a few reasons. 1: the ability to perform with shorter barrels. 2: barrel life 3: my farm and property’s longest range is 600 yards. May be different if I had longer stretches where I lived.
Cool test though!
Fun to see you guys being goofy, but still dropping great information!
Had a 308, great gun. Did exactly what I needed it to do. Got a 6.5 cm action in mdt furniture and I really like the way it shoots. Sometimes it just takes a visual...
308 had better wound channel then 6.5 on voth. I dint care about fee inches when its twice as wide and almost as deep. This was not right
Yea you can do it way better I know it 😂😂😂😂
@@titomish5914 it's not about who is doing it better it's about being clear about what's happening. They were not. I didn't say that. Udid. I just hate this comparison. Its not clear what actually matters . Let's be honest, when game is 24 inches wide at most. That's elk moose ect. and the wound channel is twice as wide n violent on one. But gosh dang that extra 2 inches penn though. Yea into the ground . Who cares we're talking hunting here. 308 had better wounds period in actual depth that matters.
@@REDNECKROOTS keep crying 😭
@@REDNECKROOTS cry baby now the tough 308 boys turned into the crying most weak babies ever😂😂😂🤣🤣