1999 VFR800 BUYING OWNING DELINKING BRAKES! Part 1
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- Опубліковано 5 бер 2016
- Description My first video of buying and owning a bike. I tried to show that even if you buy a bike with a good reputation for reliability and a full dealer service record, it means nothing if the dealer is crap!
I own a 5th Gen VFR from 2001, and you are absolutely right about the rectifier/regulator issues. Mine failed for 2 times, each of them I replaced with the stock one... It was a matter of time until it failed again. Money thrown out the window. Managed to read more on this and replaced it with an Aftermarket MOSFET one, doing the cable changes needed. This one has been working flawlessly for the last 6 years with no issues. Other than that, I absolutely love this bike! In my opinion, one of the best bikes Honda has engineered and produced!
one from a yamaha r1 2006 onwards model- solder the 3 yellow wires and send the RR wires directly to the battery, with a 30amp fuse on the positive fed.
Thanks for taking the time to do this video for us! I am in the process of buying an RC46, so this has been extremely helpful. Will be watching the other parts too! =)
Nice overview, subbed fella, out for the day but looking forward to catching up on the rest of your vids
+GTs Garage Hi and thanks for your comment. Look forward to your comments on my chain vids.
The linked brakes are really excellent, and I would not delink the brakes on any of my VFRs. To each their own, but I don't ride a track, so there's simply no need to go through that effort.
thanks for commenting, but the reasons i gave were the aging components & the high cost involved. All I ended up with is a conventional system that is easy to maintain. There are some instances when linked brake are counter productive. Nothing is perfect but both set ups are fit for purpose
.....but the reasons i gave were the aging components & the high cost involved. - which is exactly why I plan to delink mine :-)
Sakumi Hello again Sakumi, I should have also said that only the rear is de-linked. The front is a complete replacement.
I have covered about 4k miles and very pleased with the results.
The rear is the one that makes a difference. The rear brake linked to front helps you stop much better. When you delink that then you defeat Honda engineering genius.
Robert Fraley How about just use your right foot at the right time? As I said previously, the hoses were getting on in years and it was well within my skill level to do the work. I also objected to the price of braided replacement lines.
Similar to what I've done with mine. Not all Nissin calipers are the same, even though they look the same. Mine were from a 929 Blade which are 34/30, I think CBR600 ones are 34/32 and CBR954 different again, I have a sheet with all the sizes and ratios etc and best combinations for effecttive braking force vs feel/pull at the lever. I used a 5/8 Front Master Cylinder from a '99 CBR600FX and also a Rear Master Cylinder from the same model of bike (but I had to cut the threaded piston rod down).
I completely rebuilt/refurbed some Firestorm forks with new everything but also did the following mods: Damper Rod re-profile, 1.5mm bleed hole in the cartridge, complete re-order of the shim stacks in the both compression and rebound to progressively taper away from the piston- no float shims etc now, usual piston face clean and dressing etc, used the springs from the VFR in the 'Storm forks but with custom preload spacers at 20mm, set the air gap to 130mm and finally used 7.5W Silko RSF after reading so many people on the forums etc saying as such. I'm very pleased with it apart from I would have trusted my own instincts/experience and used 5w in the forks as per pretty much all cartridge forks- the ride is a little harsh when I'm not pushing the bike hard and I've set the damping to almost the minimum. 5w would 'move the curve up' and give a smoother ride but still keep it under control with the available damping adjustment. There is still virtually no dive when braking btw, much like the VFR when it had the linked brakes (one of the reasons Honda justified the CBS system), I put this down to the smaller air gap as much as anything else.
New Braided hoses all round, junked all the Honda CBS stuff, it was such a faff getting it off I ended cutting the whole lot off with an electric saw- can't believe how much it all weighed. Made a small hose to bridge the pistons on the rear caliper. It has an open engine breather, MOSFET reg/rec etc and I made a plastic 'curtain' dropping down from the battery box to protect the shock and junked the hugger that was on it.
Still on the to do list is installing the CBR929 rear shock I got for it, stripping/cleaning/re-greasing the suspension linkages etc while I'm in there. By junking the CBS, I lost the mounting for the tilt/cut-out sensor so have cable tied it to the rear sub frame, again another temporary fix.
I found that I had to 'shim' the calipers so they lined up on the discs centrally by using 1.6mm washers and also I used a 25mm copper washer on the spindle between the right fork leg which crushed to 0.5mm when tightened up and allowed everything to line up perfectly, without the washer on the spindle it was slightly misaligned/biased to the right.
To anyone saying they wouldn't junk the linked brakes- to get better front suspension you have to get rid of the CBS system, but saving around 6kgs in the process is also not to be sniffed at. To bleed the CBS system requires doing it at 11 bleed points/nipples once, then doing it again!! The linked brakes are good, they work but what a pain in the arse they are. My CBR 929/600 derived system is much better. (I chose to use 929 34/30 calipers with a 5/8 cylinder because that is exactly what Brembo supplied to Ducati for many of their bikes in the late 90's/00's and I was always very happy with the brakes on my Ducatis).
Nice work Mark. I looked into all the permutations which led me to make the decision of a complete SP2/RC51 front set up as it was a straight forward-ish transplant. The lower mounting lug had to be relieved 2mm around the rear edge in order for the calipers to swing into place. Ditto spacers to centralise the rotors.Rather than re-work Firestorm internals...can't find any good ones...Maxton do an internal kit called GP20. Nitron are in the process of making similar but will be 23mm.Why stock progressive? The valving will only partially match so I always use linear.Absolutely yes to 5w fork oil (did wonder at 7.5). When the new internals go in I may reduce the air gap by 10mm for more support under braking.
While you replied I edited mine and added a bit more...the complete SP2 set up means the new master cylinder has a separate reservoir, obscuring the dash slightly and it means the cylinders don't match. The CBR600FX M/C is an integrated type and outwardly literally looks no different to the stock VFR unit. As I wrote, all Nissin calipers are the same on the outside- same dimensions, I had to remove material too, 10 mins with a Dremel, easy job.
There are plenty of Firestorm forks around, just bought a set 2 months ago and was spoilt for choice on eBay, I often get stuff from the US, more choice and better condition usually- on mine I stripped the loose paint and corroson with a wire wheel and then sprayed with etch primer then 2 coats of alloy wheel paint. If CBR600 forks were slightly longer I would have used those and got a local engineering firm to take the triple clamps out to 43mm and got myself separate compression and rebound damping adjustment.
Suspension is my 'thing' so why buy in new internals when I can sort the ones I have? The VFR springs weren't far off what I needed for my weight and they fitted so I used'em, sure if I had the cash I might buy some nice linear RaceTech items etc but the VFR ones are pretty good and work well. Re-profiling the damper rod, drilling the bleed hole and re-oredring the shim stack is pretty much the same effect as the RaceTech Gold Valve kits (or Maxton etc) and it cost me nothing.
You can even use the shims from the old VFR valves to fine tune the set up if you really want to fine tune it- I can't be bothered with that at the moment (you can also use the O-ring from the valve piston on the VFR when you accidentally brush your heat gun against the valve on the 'Storm forks and damage the O-ring just like I did..).
The 5w vs 7.5w question is tricky. I have set 3 turns of adjustment as the range and with 7.5w I have it 2.5 turns out but when the forks are warmed up and I'm pressing on, they are perfect. Around town over poor roads they are a little harsh. Plenty of people have posted that they filled with 5w and it's just still too soft with too much dive but I'm not sure if they went the whole hog and did the shim stack, not having the float shim set up really changes it and I as i previously wrote, i suspect the smaller air gap of 130mm helps a lot with the dive, most people seem to go for 135mm, only 5mm less than stock.
HiLove your videos.Factual,interesting and no bs ! Keep up the good work ! John
Sweet bike. Early linked brakes sucked when riding hard
Just come across this video. Picking up a 2000 gen 5 VFR next week. Has 29k on it, £1795. Would u say that's a fair price?, Comes with 12 month MOT. Been off road in garage since 2016. So will prob need all fluids.
Reliable bar rectifiers cooking batteries, weak rear shocks, silly brakes, failed t/stats and headers that rot out all very common :) and low miles and caring owners don't seem to help.
Great review, well explained, honest and enough to put me off pulling the trigger on one, thanks for taking the time out to post this.
I have a 1998 with 69,000 I've ridden it daily for 9 years. The only parts I've had to replace (apart from consumables) have been the rectifier, the front oil cooler pipes which are chrome but they seem to rust and rot (I had to get salvaged ones from ebay-in future I will look to replace them with hoses although I haven't done that type of work before), and the dashboard lights, which the printed flexible circuit was corroded so I just bypassed the bad spots with my soldering iron. The guy I bought it from put most of the miles on and he rode it daily also. I cannot imagine owning a modern BMW this long or anything else, modern bikes are not built to last, the bolts and hardware are crap, or they put computers onboard that need to be recoded by dealers (BMW) once you repair anything/.
My rectifier went about a month ago as this was my first Honda I didn't know what it was the bike left me at the side of the road and I also thought it was like a cat this traffic problems upon watching a few UA-cam videos I found a problem and it was such a easy fix
I fitted a Mosfet reg/rec and I’ve done 8k miles with no issue. Many people go touring and take a spare one. Never fit a cheap Chinese one is my best advice.
Is that a black bike? I have the red one and consider repainting it black with red accents or a red wing across the fairing.
Yep, standard 1999 pearl black. Personally I like that it isn't cluttered with graphics up the side other than VFR on the sides.
Ok, covered a lot of ground here. You may have missed the point with the SP2 set up I have. It's the whole thing so as to avoid any mismatch. However the remote res is somewhat proud but I live wth it cos the stoppers are damn good.
Do you actually calculate your shim stacks and I understand what you mean about reworking but sometimes the stock stuff isn't of good quality so I incline towards a well engineered assembly that was designed to work together.
Air gaps....air gaps above the oil give support at the end of the compression stroke. Less air = more support. I'm sure you know, but for those that don't, that's what it's for.
I see why you're using the term 'mismatch' but really, it's just a certain diameter piston driving certain diameter caliper pistons, the sizes dictate power, feel and travel. In terms of braking power at the caliper, out of the various caliper/master cylinder combinations of Nissin kit the SP2 is at the lower end. Go to this site:
www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=15494
and have a read, there is a table at the top and then an updated table about halfway down with ratios and braking power and compared to brakes on GSXRs. Using the data provided I decided on 929 calipers and CBR600 m/c, it gives a braking power of 213,000 with good feel at the lever, ratio of 33 is not too stiff with good travel/modulation potential. Using CBR600 calipers would have been even better (braking power of 237,000) but I couldn't find any good ones at a decent price and I wanted Gold calipers :-)
The SP2 set up gives a braking power of 152,000 and a lever ratio of 25, considerably less power, quite a bit stiffer with less feel. Your set up would be significantly improved with a cheap CBR600 M/C, I paid £15 for mine and it looks just like the stock VFR one. It's very interesting and certainly would prove helpful to anyone thinking about this and wondering which parts to buy and use for their conversion, which is why you've done this video I presume :-)
Re: the shim stacks, I can calculate, but I read something written by the guy at Daugherty Motorsports who did a lot of work on these VFRs and VTRs, sells conversion kits etc. He said the VTR forks work much better than stock and actually quite well with the shims that are already there just re-ordered to take out the characteristics that Honda specified Showa to build them to- the float shims against the piston for instance, which Honda felt suited the intended market and purpose of the bike but obviously many people felt they were too soft etc and modified them. I followed his advice and was pleasantly surprised at how well the bike rides and handles with them, for no extra money apart from the price of the forks themselves- I genuinely thought I'd have to strip them down a few times and experiment etc but they are great first time. I like Showa stuff, it's generally OK. You want to see poor quality take a look at the internals of R1 forks, 4XV era...I had some in a TRX. The 'Storm lowers are light too, helping the unsprung weight and therefore contributing to a smoother ride etc. Anyway, not trying to be a smart arse, last thing you want is that kind of comment etc, just thoguht it woudl useful for others thinking about doing this to know.
www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53934 (a useful page with fork lengths of different bikes, illustrates very clearly why Firestorm is best option)
www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1099.0%22 (a useful page with details of all bikes with 41mm forks)
Remember the VFRs are cheap bikes now, no point lashing money at them, if you own an RC30, RC45, MV or high-end Ducati then fine lash money at one of those, get fork piston kits, trick springs etc but no point overpsending on VFRs when you can get 80% of the effect for free :-)
Hi Mark and thank you for a full and detailed reply. I have read and re-read your comments and data with end result of broadly agreeing with you though with exceptions. The SP2 brakes have great feel and more than sufficient stopping power short of overly stressing the forks, so despite the data that you sourced I don't feel the need to experiment further. I did replace the remote res master cylinder with one from an '04 CBR600RR as it's integrated and therefore looks stock.If I was to carry out the same project again in the future I would go with callipers that didn't require and filing of the mounting lugs. As for spending money on an aging bike...why not? When the basics are so good with a motor that will go on and on with just oil changes and the odd valve check..ok, maybe a clutch change at some point...The suspension, linkages and final drive stub axle require regular re-greasing to be at their best and the shock should be binned at the earliest opportunity. I've got a bike that has cost about 3k that is comfy all day, quick enough, handles just fine in the real world, charismatic V4/noise and super reliable. A winner I'd say!
Hi, don't get me wrong, I've already done similar to what you've done with yours... btw I also replaced the shock with a 3 way adjustable Showa unit from CBR929 Fireblade, an Erion edition one with the White spring, looks great, goes great :) All the work was worth doing and I'll never sell my VFR but my point is I've done it on the cheap. Maybe I'd spend thousands if I wanted to do a RC45 rep or something.
I have just acquired a vfr800 5th gen and was pondering taking the brake system to normal, is it that much of a ball ache job? My bike is under reconstruction at the current time...September’21
Depends how mechanically competent you are and how interested you are in doing the work.
It is an involved job requiring a fork strip, spacers made and a hose adapter kit for the rear caliper etc…
I would not disconnect my linked brakes!
Hi Robert, I take your point but I didn't so much as disconnect as replace the whole system. I did it on the grounds of age, cost and the fact that I have the ability and workshop to do it. The VFR now has a conventional braking system sourced from Honda's own parts list so it all looks very stock. Just what I wanted to achieve. Thanks for your comment.
forgive me for asking but where is the video of you de=linking the brakes instead of talking about it without showing how its done and the kit we need to do it ???
You are forgiven😜…there is no delink video as I didn’t delink the standard system, I actually replaced it. I explained the rational behind doing so and the components I used.
i have an 85 vt700c (v45) and im thinking of buying a o4 vfr 800
5th gen VFR is a great engine. They tend to be the most preferred over 6th gen engine. But the 6th gen has more powerful lights, upgraded suspension and exhaust tucked as features that some people favor.
My take away from your video is: be super careful when buying an old bike that probably needs high cost maintenance. Most folks would be better off buying a newer bike and one with a warranty. You will pay more...but you’ll have to pay for maintenance anyway. Always take a test ride! 😀
Ed Victory ok, no need to shout lol...that is the whole point of this video. I have over three decades of bike maintenance experience and I'm lucky enough to have a good workshop. Bikes are high maintenance and unfortunately the cost puts people off doing essential work so many bikes are neglected. I use that to leaver the price down when buying a used machine. In this case I was a little blind sided by the outward condition. Live and learn I guess!
HORNET6 Right you ate. I’ve recently been
looking for another bike. When I ask sellers about maintenance I get a hard time from folks. I then walk away from their machine. I don’t want to buy an abused bike.
Hey mate, Where did you get those amazing mirrors?
Артем Одинцов Amazing they are not, just from the next later model ;-)
Look much better than those rubber sleeves.
Oh didn't know that.
Yeah they do, that's why I wanna change rubber ones. Can't find suited ones though :(
Артем Одинцов those are from the '00-'01 VFR 800.
They will fit the previous two years of the fifth gen and the fourth gen.
Артем Одинцов correct.
is the pair valve system hard to remove?
Road Warrior firstly, apologies for being slow to answer.
In a word, no, but I’m handy with tools so it didn’t pose any problem to me.
You could take the hoses off and plug the housings on the cam covers but I made blanking plates to be neat.
Please ask if you need to know more
@@HORNET6 Thanks, would I be right in thinking that the 98-99 models are different from the 00-01 models, and don't have the pair system? (the 00-01 have HECS written on the fairing at the seat)
edit
All 5th gens have the pair system but removing it on the 98-99 bikes makes no difference as they don't have 02 sensors or cat converters.
remember Simoncelli
Someone who rides
When Will Honda fit a decent rear shock... Blades and Storms are the same failing at silly low miles.
Great review though.
fourelmscars fourelmscars Trouble is not the miles. Mine had averaged 1k per year so the shock had been sat idle, the seal dried out allowing oil to pass it. Suspension only has a small quantity of oil but because it's difficult the change people don't bother. The motor has plenty of oil but because it's easy to change it gets done.
Is the vtec version that bad.
yes
wow, you bought into a bike that was not maintained. Good that you know how to repair things yourself.
Robert Fraley Hey Robert, in my experience, 31 bikes to date, owners may change oil, pads and adjust the chain but so much gets neglected. This bike was a case in point. Outwardly in excellent condition but hiding a list of issues that should have been fixed as soon as they became apparent.
Robert Fraley which is the reason I said during the video to test ride before buying as it gives you the choice of not buying or a stronger negotiating position.
you didn't want to just buy a firestorm mudguard ?
Yeah I looked at that but I didn't want it to look like a grafted on a VTR front end and it would mean having it sprayed up. Will take another look at it and see how much it would be. Thanks for your question.
Firestorm mudguard doesn't fit, I tried that- it's much too narrow the distance between the fork legs in the Friestrom's triple clamp is obviously much less. I ended up using the VFR's original mudguard, putting a block of wood on each side, bolting the wood to the forks and then the mudguard to the wood, over the winter I'll knock something more permanent up in either plastic or very hard wood.
Headers ????????
spike little section of the exhaust from cylinder to link pipe... header pipe
you ever heard of removing the pair valves?
Yes! In fact I did that to this bike. All the pipework, wiring, solenoid, all gone. I used the housings as templates to make blanking plates and removed the valves also. Didn’t take long and really cleaned up the under tank area.
De-linking the brakes is something I would definitely do. Or not buy a linked brake bike in the first place. Linked brakes suck, I want full control. I like using my back brake when I choose. Linked brakes shouldn't even be a thing, imo.
Brutal Wang if they were unsafe then the bikes wouldn’t pass homologation. The CBS systems are not really intrusive and control nose diving when carrying a pillion, but a good rider knows to lead with the rear brake when carrying a passenger anyway.
I actually didn’t de-link, I removed the system entirely only retaining the rear caliper which I re-hosed externally.
Oh and you know you could remove the single side swing arm, the gear cam, and the radiator cooling system. Just kidding of course.
The Barry sheen wannabes that butcher an incredibly well engineered system from Honda a beautiful package of a bike. If you're doing this to make yourself a track bike fine. If you ride on the road it's idiotic it's the best thing engineered pre abs and if you find it problematic you're riding like a nutter. Just sayin
Say what you like but you’re incorrect in all your assertions about me and have paid no attention as to the reasons why I made the changes. A butcher I am not and engineered with sound principles a conventional brake set up.
The CBS is undoubtably good but can lack feel.
Oh, it’s Sheene with an ‘e’.