INSANE D&D Leaks Just Got EXPOSED
Вставка
- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code DUNGEONSNDISCOURSE at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: incogni.com/dun...
PATREON: / discourseminiatures
TWITCH: / discoursegames
WARGAMING: / @discourseminis
DISCORD: / discord
UK AFFILIATE: affiliates.way...
TIPS: ko-fi.com/disc...
MERCH: discourse-mini...
Affiliate links that I have put in the description of this video link to those companies that I myself have purchased from and had good dealings with as a consumer. I would recommend these companies! These help support the channel, and don't cost you anything to use, so if you're going to feed your plastic addiction, this is a great way to do so!
All images belong to their respective owners.
✘ Title: Covert Affair ✘ Music: Kevin MacLeod ✘ License: CC BY 3.0 (goo.gl/BlcHZR) ✘ Download: incompetech.com....
Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code DUNGEONSNDISCOURSE at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: incogni.com/dungeonsndiscourse
I love watching purple hairs like you complain as though you child diddling women weren’t the cause for D&D nosediving to begin with.
Thanks for this.
Youre a weird looking he/she
Most of the data sold is actually not stolen data from data breaches. Most people don't read the Terms of Service of accounts they create and allow the corpos to sell the data.
Here's an example: Heard about the Playstation Network Account debacle with Helldivers 2? Well when that happened I did in fact read the terms of service and what did I find in there? Well here it is, directly from sextion 6.1. of the PSN ToS: "You hereby authorize us to use, distribute, copy, display, and publish your User Information, without payment to you." Distribute and publish. What that really means is "You hereby authorize us to sell all your user information to every data broker we can possibly find".
I'm pretty sure you'll find similar clauses in many ToS.
Does this mean I will now have friends and loved ones?!! Yay!
Dear WOTC/Hasbro: You have no chance of beating a bunch of players who use jenga pieces for terrain, bulk chess pawns for character figures, and grid paper for a play mat.
My group uses 1000x1000 lego plates for our maps
I'm honestly surprised some corporate drone somewhere hasn't tried to set up a "TTRPG starter kit" that's just a bunch of random game pieces and graph paper, and priced it at four easy installments of $99.95.
Once a long time ago, several decades in fact, I looked at D&D art and aspired a little to be able to draw something like that art. Never got to. But on the other hand, I learned to create simple BASIC programs to automate gameplay aspects and that opened my current career. What inspiration will the current and next generations get from mass pumped AI-generated content?
"You know what would be a great business decision with zero possible drawbacks or consequences?? Pulling one over on the community built around spotting loopholes in official rules. Anyone know a cheap lawyer? These plebs can't be THAT smart." -Hasbro CEO, probably
@@jokerofspades-xt3bs My man!
The answer: stop giving WOTC your money and stop buying their crap! Why is this so hard? There are so many other companies that make great games that don't insult or screw over their players. I left WOTC and refuse to give them another penny for Troll Lord Games instead because they don't actively insult their players, lie to them, or treat them like crap. Yet WOTC spits on you, insults you, lies to you, there are still people who scream "Take my money!" whenever WOTC pumps out more junk.
I can safely say, it really isn't that hard. With Magic, I stopped after the Fallout set, because I'm a huge fan of Fallout. Before that it was the first Magic D&D set. I've seen what that game's got coming down the pipe and the prices they're thinking they're going to get, and those have ended my interest hard.
With D&D, I have a ton of 3.5e, which was from before, and the important 5e books. I've been trying hard to get my group to try other things and we've been having fun with Fallout 2d20. But I have Dishonored, Walking Dead, Old Gods of Appalachia, and a growing collection of Pathfinder 2e waiting.
There are other systems and games. Wizards/Hasbro doesn't need anyone's money.
It's the same as the 40K lemmings. Voting with your wallet is a foreign concept to lemmings.
Sad, isn't it? They will receive exactly zero dollars out of my pocket going forward, regardless of what they claim they'll do to "be better". There are a plethora of games and gaming companies out there who can earn my coin.
At this point the entirety of Hasbro and WotC is kept afloat by people who have the unhealthy mindset of "i can't quit now or I will be behind and then all the thousands of dollars I spent on the hobby would be meaningless".
You know, the kind of person to immideatly order new MtG set purely because it's bound to have cards that will be new meta.
@@Drakhesh Ah, the old Sunk Cost Fallacy. Gets 'em every time.
"We promise to be good until it becomes too profitable to not be bad."
Companies are responsible to their owners first and their customers second. Unless they have a single nice person as an owner, they maximize for profit. If they are nice to there customers it is because they think that this is a good long term strategy to earn more. But often it is way better to screw over your customers.
@@Chiungalla79 All true, but companies don't tend to keep lying to their customers even if they get caught, over and over.
That does not sound like a great way to maximize profit. Most companies tend to keep their mouths shut instead of writing a policy they plan to ignore.
What is the sound of Hasbro executive pillow talk Alex
@@loke6664
Don't want to drag this into the political. But Trump and others have shown that the average person has the memory span of a fruit fly. You can tell contradicting lies in rapid fire mode and many people wouldn't even notice.
Those guys that scream bloody murder and promise to rage quit right now are exactly the same people that promised they wouldn't buy anything from Hasbro any more 10 times in the last two years.
People forget. And it could actually be smart to put out all the bad news close together, but not too close, instead of spreading them out.
That's where the lying made sense for them.
Compare this to a friendship. 5 short lasting fights spread evenly over 5 years are probably lot less a problem than 5 fights in 5 weeks.
Most people convinced they are done with DnD will return. Memories will fade. Negative emotions will become a lot weaker. Friends want to play. ...
For many quitting DnD will be as hard as quitting cigarettes. And the moment the bad news stop they will re-jump on the bandwaggon.
@@Chiungalla79 I rather keep any real life politics, religion and other things that generally doesn't fit the gaming table out of it. I have an actual commie and a very conservative player and it never been a problem as long as discussion about those topics aren't allowed (they can argue somewhere else).
But I disagree that they all will come back. There isn't only Pathfinder out there and getting your customers to try your competitors products while you are cutting cost is a bad idea in general.
As for delivering all the bad news at once, in 2 parts or dragging it out, the problem is more that you establish yourself as a liar after a couple of times so people wont believing anything they say and they are reaching that point now.
The problem is that just lying about things is way worse then not talking about something.
A general life lesson is that if you screw up, just confess and don't lie about it (like they did when they denied those pictures were AI first).
Another one is that don't write policies you don't plan to follow. They should have apologized for the AI pictures but not made any promises or written any policies. That would have split out the bad news a bit without looking like total liars.
With less and less resources on D&D and WoTC constantly getting caught lying, they will have a problem getting players back.
Paizo isn't perfect but they do act far better and Pathfinder and D&D are not that different in quality. They totally dominated the market during the 4th edition time and if WoTC and Hasbro keep messing up, that will happen again.
If it does, Hasbro will keep cutting funding and fire more devs which is a death spiral they already entered.
The AI responsible for sacking the previous AI has been sacked.
An AI moose once bit my sister ...
An AI moose once created an AI drawing of an AI Alaska
@@legionarybooks13 AI moose bites can be pretty nasty
@@NogardCodesmith
AI Moose Trained by YUTTE HERMSGERVØRDENBRØTBØRDA
Special AI Moose Effects OLAF PROT
AI Moose Costumes SIGGI CHURCHILL
AI Moose choreographed by HORST PROT III
Miss Taylor's AI Mooses by HENGST DOUGLAS-HOME
AI Moose Trained to mix concrete and
sign complicated insurance forms by JURGEN WIGG
AI Mooses noses wiped by BJØRN IRKESTØM-SLATER WALKER
Large AI moose on the left hand side
of the screen in the third scene from the
end, given a thorough grounding in Latin,
French and 'O' Level Geography by BO BENN
Suggestive poses for the AI moose
suggested by VIC ROTTER
AI Antler-care by LIV THATCHER
Honestly, why were we even entertaining the pretense that WotC's AI policy was in any way legally binding in the first place? It's not a contract. They can just violate whatever promise they've made, with no legal consequences.
This was ALWAYS propaganda.
There is a little matter called FRAUD. Using AI in an advertisement promo (like with the human-designed magic cards set in an AI gen setting), that they can get away with, you didn't pay for it. But if they say "we don't and will never use AI in our products" and then sell you a book with AI generated pictures or text, they've made a materially false statement about the qualities of a product to entice you to buy it- that's not just a civil violation, it's a crime.
I stopped giving WoTC my money after the OGL scandal and with each week that passes, I am increasingly glad I made that decision.
Me too
Me Too
Same
Yeah me too. They dont deserve my money
Everybody should boycott them at that point
I remember when AI in a video game was the term for playing against the computer.
It still means that. The computer is just expanding it's reach.
And this is the problem, people think all AI is the same when it's a collection of tools that can be used in a variety of ways. Some of them have been used badly, but simply looking for a software engineer with AI skills does not mean they're going to start using AI art in all their output or anything like that. There's lots of possible applications.
@@michaelholt4557they have already used AI for art before, they fired their art department last year, people are just following the clues they give, it's not lack of knowing what AI can do, it can do a lot of things, we all know, some very useful if they were being created to actually improve lives, but it's created for profit and if helps some people along the way it's just bonus.
@@michaelholt4557 The job listing explicitly mentions both "art assets" AND "large language models", though, so......
@@michaelholt4557 Thou shalt not create a machine in the likeness of the human mind. -Frank Herbert, Dune
Call me old fashioned, but when a chaotic evil company promises to be lawful evil, I remain doubtful.
Perfect description
this is actually so good
WOTC is shamelessly lying over and over and over and over. The most important thing is to sprinkle anti-AI commentary on their next product promotional posts and reviews of that product. It needs to be stressed that the company constantly lies because they figure that getting caught lying isn't all that serious a problem. Sort of like how society has changed where far too many people don't mind being "bad citizens".
The OGL debacle itself should have taught us that when Hasbro says "We hereby swear this shall be so forevermore", the "forevermore" means "until it's even slightly inconvenient, then we'll completely reverse this decision". They cannot be trusted, their apologies are "sorry you caught us" rather than "sorry we did the bad thing", and seriously, stop giving them money.
H
by doing what they did to the licance, they gave up rights to it. they CANT reverse it by law
@@neock That's what they said about the OGL itself.
Hasbro, "Hiring creative people costs money, do we really need those people?"
WotC, "Our hobby is most popular among people who are creative because of all the things you can do with it."
Hasbro, "I'm sure it will be fine."
I never understood this, I'm not American, I'm Brazilian, so different culture around the game but every aingke person I know who plays is an artist in some capacity, two of them literally are artists who do illustrations for paizo, dire wolf, roll for combat, etc.
Seems like a biting the hand who feeda you situation.
@@bluester7177 However, this AI engineer isn't creating AI art. Heck the whole AI art problem occurred because artists lied to Hasbro/WoTC. Wizards only mistake was that they aren't perfect at detecting AI art and they trusted the artists they hired. WoTC cannot be the police of artists. One AI artist copied another artists work and reversed it. And WoTC was supposed to know this how exactly?
Their “creative people” have been trash for years. They are not fans and they just got the job to shit on D&D because they are ideological psychopaths.
@@johnevans5782 You are fooling yourself if you think the order to use AI didn't come from management. If WoTC didn't want AI to be used, then they would've started putting policies in place to police the artists they are hiring after the first instance, instead of waiting for the heat to die down and trying it again. WoTC leadership has stated multiple times that "Wait for heat to die down and then do it again, because our customers are idiots with the memories of goldfish" is their policy. "It'll blow over, and people will calm down, and they'll just accept it when we bend them over and exploit them."
The whole AI art problem occurred because Hasbro/WoTC decided "We COULD pay an artist a bunch of money per picture needed for all the pages, OR we could have this intern generate something Good Enough for $8.50/hr, and it only takes like a couple minutes to generate each picture. So basically free." And then nobody bothered to actually look at the output to spot glaring flaws, because the management people making the decision don't care what they slap down.
@@johnevans5782 (Welp, YT deleted my comment again. Guess I'll give it another shot.) This is not a case of a rogue artist lying to Hasbro/WoTC. If it was, the company would've put down policies to ensure it didn't happen again. But it happened multiple times, and keeps happening, and the leadership keeps praising AI. It was WoTC's conscious decision to use AI, because they think so little of their customers. They think if they just wait for the heat to cool off, they can get away with it.
The AI FAQ does not mention programmers, system designers, project managers, or a myriad of other roles involved in a project, so I guess those are free to use AI however they see fit. Also, this statement only applies to MtG and D&D, so if WotC creates a new franchise then they can do whatever they want.
The bigger point, policy is not a legally binding contract. It is a company saying this is what we plan to do. It's my policy to piss in a toilet, that doesn't mean I can't or haven't elsewhere.
Hasbro will do whatever they can legally get away with. If this means making a virtual Matt Mercer that looks like Chris Perkins to DM for D&D, they will.
As for an AI DM, I was saying that when Hasbro bought Beyond and everyone said I was over reacting.
The bottleneck to the game is DMs so why not use AI to first make DMs to run hardcovers, then expand into AL modules which they can get together and bind into at least a dozen books. One for each season they made modules for, the CCC modules could be easily two books, then you have the convention/event specific modules. By the time they have all of those they will have taught the AI to DM a AI generated campaign by creating criteria for the start and how to respond to player reactions. (No doubt that streaming games will be "watched" by the AI to learn the process.)
They're always free to do whatever they want. They're still free to do what they want even if it's illegal. If the amount of fines they'll eventually pay when caught is less than the amount they saved by breaking the law, any public corp will just go right ahead and break the law, considering fines a cost of doing business.
Same goes for fan outrage. Temporary bad press, possible short term drop in profits, then people forget, and all along they saved a net fortune by doing whatever they wanted that pissed fans off in the first place.
Public corporations behave like actual diagnosed psychopaths. Morality has nothing to do with pleasing shareholders, it's all about whatever they think will improve profits this quarter.
Not to say that they've always been fiscally responsible, of course. Sometimes folks are just bad at their jobs. But that's the mindset at least.
I love watching this dumpster fire of a company play out. Your videos make it SO entertaining.
glad you like the videos at least lmao
@@dungeonsanddiscourse
Me too. Seems there's always something.
"Oh. How is the dumpster fire company making people angry this week?"
Discourse: Hasbro...
Me: Ok, what did they do this time?
Even Charlie Harper had better behaviour.
Every time I see that thumbnail on my front page I'm like
"This is probably a nothingburger, but I do like watching her"
I do miss her ranting into a hand-held mic.
@@kadeshaderow @5daboz @nosotrosloslobosestamos ... Sound the alarms! OMG! OMG! OMG! The Sky is falling!!! Oh wait, it's Discourse Mini just ranting again.
***Click***
Damyu Mouse! Why do you always do this to me?!! I don't wanna!... Oh yeah, the accent ... Guess I'll watch the first two minutes ...
Hasbro... The non-digital Electronic Arts. Enough said.
Discourse Hasbro...
Me: Who?
I got a hot solution for Hasbro's incurable need for more money: fire some executives.
Think about it. Fire a handful and suddenly the company has tens of millions more dollars without a drop in product quality
Come on Man, stop using that LOGIC stuff.
Oh no, they will.
Eventually.
The fire climbs the ladder, if slowly, toward the top until there is the highest executives wondering what happened to cause this fire (then filing for bankruptcy, starting a new company, and starting a new fire)
You HAVE heard of these inconvenient little things called investors, right? You DO know that the US courts have ruled it illegal for any company to act in the interests of their customers when those actions get in the way of making profit for those investors right?
Investors don't give a damn about gamers. Heck the majority of investors don't care about anything but seeing their investments make a profit. If the guys running the company did everything you want... they WOULD be fired and potentially sued for doing so.
At the beginning of the 20th century Ford tried to lower the prices of cars so everyone could afford one. He believed profit would be made in volume selling. His investors disagreed and sued him. He lost in the Courts, who ruled that a Company has no legal right to act in any manner contrary to the best interests of their investors. This is still the law today.
Gamers who are demanding that Executives for Hasbro act in their interests instead of profit for the company are asking them to commit career suicide and risk their personal fortunes in doing so. Why on the world would the guys running Hasbro risk losing everything because gamers are unhappy?
And imagine Hasbro goes down... The execs now would be able to get new jobs. But if they get fired for actions against their investors no one will hire them.
And consider that many gamers may well BE Hasbro investors... A lot of folks have no idea what companies their 401K is invested in... but if it started losing money, they would want their money reinvested, whether it hurt that company or that company's customers. If you have a retirement account, and that money were in a golfing company, and the customers of that company wanted the company to do things that benefited them and it would lose you money. Would you be OK with that?
@@orbitalair2103 I'm sorry! >< I'll push the crayon back up my nostril
Then, they will get a chromatic dragon gem encrusted parachute. 😆
Left WotC after the OGL debacle. Keep getting more and more reasons to stay away. Weird... It's like a pattern or something.
This is why there's still a market for old AD&D materials.
Yup, still got all my 3.5E books in physical and pdf. A perfectly balanced game with zero exploits, and I love running with the cheese.
I don't like living in the past ...
Wait, why the f am I still playing D&D then?!?!?!!
Oh yeah, because DC20 is still in Kickstarter ...
And why it's still better
I never played 5e. Stole from 4e. Stuck to a comfortable blend of 3.5 and pf1e. Warned an entire generation of new players for a decade. Everyone likes to joke "oh, of course you think your edition was the best" but is it really the same this time around? Is it? I have over 50 books and 400 issues of Dragon magazine that blow these half hearted vaporware 5e books out of the water. I dont think "the DM can make up a rule for that!" Ever came out of the developers' mouths in that era. It didn't need to. The game was so intuitive and dense that I could put 2 and 2 together consistently i. The event something fell through the cracks. Everyone talks about 3.5 being hard to learn....
But is that so bad? Why does EVERYTHING need to be watered down for the sake of allowing anyone and everyone to pick it up? Not everything is for everyone and that's ok. Sometimes the barrier for entry is worth it, because it taught you how to function in the space.
I still buy used AD&D and BECMI stuff. I am getting close to a number of goals, but even so I have a long way to go on both games especially AD&D.
Well, currently, AI can't be copyrighted so we can take everything, and they can't sue us.
Well, they can still try.
Not only did they fire a ton of people, put less content in the book than ever AND use AI art BUT they raised the prices on their books while giving us less and less value.
It has been a really rough year
It's what always happens when executives take over the leadership of a gaming company.
Remember back 6 months when Hasbro-Wizards laid off several hundred employees? This is why, because they planned to replace them with AI.
No, it’s because their stock is dropping fast.
I mean, it was mostly the art department.
@@Wolfedog Actually their stock price has been on a general increase since November of last year.
@@fred_derf Actually their stock from the last year is down 4.32 percent. In August of last year it was a 72 now it’s a 58 a share. Keep that cope alive.
@@Wolfedog So now you have to move the goal posts in order to justify your lie. As I said, their stock price has been on a general increase *since November of last year.*
Yes their stock dropped, it is not dropping. What you wrote initially is incorrect. In the last six months it's gone from $48.70 to $58.45. Over the last 12 months it's gone from $61.09 to $58.45, a slight drop and hit a low of $42.88 on Nov. 13, last year.
So yes, it's dropped (likely due to the underwhelming performance of the D&D Movie) from a high in early September, but it's been on a recovery since November.
1. Hasbro / WOTC is only sorry they got caught.
2. They are not stopping with AI. No matter what they say WOTC will use AI to make as much content as possible.
Try making a video game with any interaction between avatars with zero AI. We can wait... forever. AI has been in video games with interacting characters since the very beginning. If WoTC bans AI entirely, they can never make or license any kind of electronic game again.
@@johnevans5782Videogame AI is a long list of if statements and preprogrammed switch cases, sometimes with an RNG thrown in to make it less predictable. Very different technology with the same name.
that's not a gnome... that's a redcap!
I cancelled my D&D Beyond subscription when they axed piecemeal purchasing of content, thus making it far more expensive for players who prefer the physical books but would still like to use digital tools (unlocking only what they need). And it's not like I didn't spend a fair bit of money via piecemeal, as I usually reached the point where it just wasn't expensive anymore to complete a book, so it was actively driving further sales. Absolutely absurd situation.
And OGL scandal 2.0 is convincing me to move away from D&D entirely; I love the setting, and they can't stop me from using that, but I've never actually particularly liked the rules (they're fine, but way too complicated for what they are - I vastly prefer rules light systems).
"Move fast and break things" is a kind way of saying "We like to fuck around and find out."
WoTC: "Somehow, AI returned."
Hasbro really seems determined to destroy D&D at its height. It's like some Toys R Us, Red Lobster level incompetence without the venture capital. Critical Role must be laughing loudly behind the scenes. If Dagger Heart succeeds, the MVP in that story is going to be Hasbro.
Fuck Critical Role
Torrenting D&D products is the most moral thing you can do in this situation. Steal from them. Never pay them.
I doubt you know nor care what morals are.
@@SurmaSampo Cry more about then I guess.
@@SurmaSampowhen you don't own what is bought, torrenting isn't theft.
@@Tuck-Shop Well, copyright infringements by definition aren't theft but regardless your argument is ridiculous. You have never owned the content as it has always been licenced. That is how intellectual property works.
I get it, you just want stuff for free.
@@SurmaSampo I don't torrent. But I get it, you defend companies and their push for removing ownership by replacing it with time based licenses
Wizards is an IP company first and foremost. They are only interested in the *appearance* of organic creativity. They would replace every salary employee they have if the AI didn't suck so much.
But, give it time...
Pretty much, the only safer ones are probably the executives, even though they should be the easiest to replace.
I know if they just waited a few years AI might be good enough to fool people so they wouldn't even know. But right now AI is so bad it very obvious when it is used, especially if you don't have a human clean it up. So yeah they are just working to drive themselves into the dust before AI could possible work the way they want it to.
yeah, well they are sitting on hundreds of Avalon Hill and SPI games they could be making money from, if they ahd re-released a bunch of them about 10 years ago (max nostalgia+money spot for people like me)
Second loophole in that AI FAQ:
"we wont use AI in MTG and D&D TTRPG"
the VTT is NOT the TTRPG. AI DM's are a GO.
Yet more insidious than thinking that they'd have artists use AI-gen as a base, they speak of "creatives". The besought AI Engineer is not a creative and can AI their heart out and not betray their "promise". "Our artists, writers, and creatives drew, wrote, and designed everything without AI. Jamie over there, the AI Engineer, did."
In other news Paizo not only banned AI, but is releasing Starfinder 2nd Edition next year, which will be compatible with Pathfinder 2nd Edition
DnD 5.5e MIGHT launch with 12 classes
Pathfinder 2e has 23 classes right now
Starfinder 2e will launch with 34 classes
Hmm, more classes isn't always better.
3rd edition d&d had hundreds by the end.
I'm not saying starfinder won't be good, i loved 1st edition! But I'm not sure you can make all 34 of them distinct enough to be worth having.
But I will hopefully be proved wrong!
@@SymbioteMullet oh my bad, like starfinder will support the 27 pathfinder 2e classes on launch (by the time it comes out)
Most of them expand on dnd subclasses (like magus being eldritch knight fighter but with more options) and TONS of new martial options
Like monk is actually good in pf2e and can CANONICALLY go super saiyan, halo included
Too many classes is one of the problems already.
So Paiwoke learnt from Wokes of the Gr00ming's bad mouthing?
I don't think it is fair to say that starfinder will start with over 30 classes
while classes from pf2e can be played probably without any significant issues they don't belong to starfinder 2e nad they aren't designed to accommodate sf2e different design goals
still being comparable with pf2e is gives so many options to adapt existing content, and there is a lot of it
Hasbro: *pukes on you*
Hasbro: sorry
Hasbro: *pukes on you*
Hasbro: sorry
Hasbro: *pukes on you*
Hasbro: sorry
Hasbro: *pukes on you*
Hasbro: sorry
repeat eternally
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me... you can't get fooled again.
"we're so sory that we got caught, we'll do better to sneak it past you without getting caught next time."
I stopped giving them money after they sent the pinkertons on a customer.
I get that. So who were they supposed to hire to go and ask for the cards back? Daddy day care?
Were they supposed to be fine and dandy with the youtube jerk who started posting videos of those cards before they were supposed to be released, damaging their sales and stock?
When a new magic set comes out, a lot of people buy them because the set is new and they don't know what's in it. Releasing it early kills that anticipation and can seriously damage sales.
If this sort of thing had happened in any other industry, people would have shrugged and felt that companies are entitled to keep their trade secrets... but apparently WoTC should not be allowed those same rights.
The Pinkertons may have acted poorly, but WoTC was likely legally bound to try to recover those cards.
So, you're saying the conspiracy theories were true....
They've been always true.
When I saw the design for Vecna on the cover for the new adventure that features him in a minor role (you seriously cannot claim he is the main antagonist when he only shows up for the last 5 minutes of story) I immediately thought it looked like it was created by AI. And I dislike it a lot, not necessarily because of the AI, but because it is a really terrible design.
Gurps was cool! Totally did supers, cyberpunk, and vikings in the 90s.
WDYM “was”?
Naw, just kidding. GURPS is the system-or should I say simulation-that I love to love, but don’t love to play, in light of lighter options. That notwithstanding, GURPS genre and settings books are still an excellent source of inspiration. I support it to this day; just recently I found reasons to look into GURPS Traveller, and it’s so great that this stuff is still available digitally.
@@foolcat23 Haven't played in decades...
GURPS is still my go-to RPG system. Pity I am a mostly solo player these days…
Every so often, I get a character idea. So I crack open 4th edition, and see how I go bringing the idea to life.
You have not truly experienced the three Death Test modules, until you have played them in the original GURPS format.*
Cheers,
* With apologies to Star Trek VI, and, yes, I know the Death Test modules were from The Fantasy Trip - it is an extremely easy conversion…
OneShotQuesters needs to do another skit or two on WotC controversies, there's plenty of material
How many times can one company shit the bed?
"LOL, hold my beer" -- Hasbro
As many times as it takes them to fall into complete and total financial ruin.
@@Asertix357 So, not that long from now...
@@Asertix357they are licencing 5e materials from the big 3rd party creators and selling digital copies on Beyond. Most of the opposition is being paid royalties for their products so they won't be pushing other systems unless they know they will make more from them.
Hasbro has locked in the future of their D&D being digital leasing.
Infinity and beyond?
At this point, I'm not even surprised.
Haha, you were firey on this one. Had me laughing all the way through the video.
awesome!! :D
I love you were able to get Chris Cox to speak on this video. Nothing but the truth here!
I don't understand. What's wrong with using A.I.? If I was a company for TTRPG using A.I. would save time and money, meaning more/cheaper content. Also have an A.I. play DM sounds awesome weather your wanting to play alone with a spouse or a large group of friends.
People want to be mad
People object to replacing artists and writers with bots, mostly. With a side of "that laion dataset was only legal for research, not commercial products", and many bizarre offputting art errors that no human would make.
My Beyond subscription was canceled like a year ago
Yeah. My first thought was "People still pay for D&D Beyond subscriptions?"
Go to pathfinder 2.
Better game.
Much better company.
I think the annoying thing about AI art is that every tool we currently have is not ACTUALLY AI in any form, and there's a bunch of Vulture Capitalist money sloshing around in the tech sector towards creating and selling AI products, and so visual/digital tools which have been available for years are now being labeled "AI", and there's no distinction between these light diffusion, motion blur, focus adjustment kinds of photoshop tools and the AI prompt art of stable diffusion and others like it. Neither is AI, both are labeled as AI, one can be something a digital artist uses like any other photoshop tool like brightness or opacity sliders, and the other is what causes the weirdest people in the entire world to present the absolute worst picture of Supergirl you have ever seen and claim they are a skilled artist.
But because they are all labeled AI, every AI policy has to be weasel wordy, because who knows what counts as AI in a world where everything is claimed as AI, and nothing is actually AI. And because every policy has to be written like this, no policy contains any actual prohibitions, so... yeah, no company can ever be restrained like this. We have to radically change everything about our system from the ground up.
Those are all AI, they're just not the same types of AI, video game monsters have AI, it's just all different types of AI. All thumbs are a finger, but not all fingers are thumbs
@@tomykong2915 "AI" in videogames is not proper artificial intelligence either, it's most often a set of conditionals and probabilities. In fact, I do not believe any videogame to date has successfully integrated proper neural-net AI due to the massive task of properly training it and deploying it in a way that improves the player experience.
The point stands, however, that "AI" is a polluted term, and is often used to refer to things that are not actually artificial intelligence. In fact, many would argue the likes of ChatGPT are not AI either; they are large language models and not truly "intelligent" as they have no deeper understanding of the words or concepts they output. In other words, it'd be like if were referring to toes, noses, spleens and elbows as fingers in addition to thumbs.
@@tomykong2915The other replier is correct. "AI" is being widely and incorrectly used in the same sense that people widely and incorrectly use the word "literally" when they do not mean something literally.
Prompt and Language "AI", as well as "AI Art" is not really AI, it's an algorithm that analyses thousands of sentences/images fed to it and begins to identify common patterns between them, then uses those same words/images fed to it to form a median output that meets the criteria of a prompt.
Put more simply: language and art "AI" models are actually just identifying algorithms that make collages out of whatever information you feed to them. Furthermore, they can only determine a median in their given resources, which is why you will always get bizarre geometry and limbs in generative art (because the possibilities are too variable to select a true median) and language models loop and are reluctant to find conclusions (conclusions are not the median bulk of writing; the continuous body is). They cannot and do not create new elements because they are not True Artificial Intelligence, not even in the sense of Single Use AI, let alone Multipurpose AI (which at this stage does not exist anywhere).
All the things we currently call "AI" are merely labelled that as a marketing ploy. Even videogame "AI" is a series of scripts, if statements and triggers compared to what True AI is actually supposed to be.
@@conspiracypanda1200 no, you're redefining a word randomly. The term AI was used for video game characters long before most of this came up, and that was always included in what the word means, again, categorization of AI, with "True" AI not even being a real category, with the closest concept being the idea of sentient AI. Again, AI is just computers making decisions, rather than just a human, somple as that. The intellegence of flies actually is pretty similar to that of a computer actually as well, having set things they react to, but otherwise not really internalizing what those things are, because doing so isn't useful
A comment for the numbers darling
Wow, WOTC and Hasbro lied..... Who would have thought?
I was done with D&D after the OGL. A megacorp like Hasbro will have it's way no matter way.
We are NOT the customers. We are the consumer. The customers are their investors. What we, the consumer, want is irrelevant. They just need to determine how many consumers they can lose while keeping the numbers going up.
Sure glad I don't play 5E. There are so many better options out there.
The only 5e I'll play is the star wars 5e, since it's pretty crispy gameplay wise.
Pretty sure it's all homebrew too?
Denholm Reynholm sighting!
I'd say I feel like Hasbro has once again kicked me in the ass yet again, but after such a repeated barrage of beatings, my butt has abandoned me and fled for the witness protection program.
Wholly unsurprising that the empty words and 'commitments' they have made to the D&D community hold up about as well as a scribble on an Etch-A-Sketch in a magnitude 7.4 earthquake.
I'm so glad the playcast I'm part of isn't doing any modern wotc product. We want to bring more smaller and/or older games to the spotlight.
I've already stopped giving WOTC my money I haven't touched a WOTC product in two years at this right I have more faith in GW OF ALL THINGS than Wotc
I'm not for Hasbro by any means, but to be fair, there's been a few AI engineer job postings for their new video game company, Atomic Arcade. There's a large difference between AI in video games and AI art. AI in video games is what causes npc characters to function. This of course could be just cover up for their crude actions. It's also worth noting that the AI engineer job posting for Atomic Arcade was for a GI Joe game, not WOTC.
There's also a second loophole that Hasbro left in that specifically relates to the virtual table top platform. They only promised to keep AI out of Magic and D&D products. They never said anything about Magic and D&D services.... Time to greet Faerun's new AI overlords.
OK, as a Standard Nerd myself, I love that you had a meme of my boss, declaring war! Denholm Reynholm always declared war on everything! (before his sudden exit out the window when the police arrived to discuss the pension fund)
Yeah, im sorry but just stop playing & supporting the games of these giant corporations.
WOTC,GW,EA its all the same story. Go indie already.
I disagree with your analysis of their AI FAQ, the actual problem with it is it says they forbid their artists, writers, and creatives to use AI in creating things for MTG and D&D but it doesn't say that other employees cannot use AI to create art. Any one of the executives that are not normally involved in the creative process could probably create a whole book worth of art and writing in about an hour using updated models of AI. Using AI as part of the process isn't that terrible, I think the one area where AI art excels is to come up with a layout and color scheme for an art piece, which being able to generate a bunch of different ideas and then use that as inspiration to create something is perfectly fine. I also don't think anyone is having AI generate an entire piece and then tracing over it. There are some artists that have AI generate something and then they fix the wonky parts, but that wouldn't be allowed by their statement in the FAQ. No, the real problem is it only prevents those particular employees with those job titles from using AI in a finished product not everyone in the company.
There's already Artwork products made by AI where the Creator then touches up to remove AI errors in hands, skin folds, or awkward views of joints such as ankles at a bad angle. The artwork is then sold not at a discounted price but at the same price as if a human had come up with the original idea, did all the planning, and did all the drawing, and then did the final product touchup. It feels dirty to me and I don't want to buy AI produced material that is not labeled as designed, planned, and performed by AI with final touchup by artist xyzzy_plugh.
I have no problem with AI art as long as it stated as such. I do artwork myself and to me its just another tool. I'm an old bugger with a history in the print trade union movement so if you want to talk about jobs lost to AI it will be similar to what the introduction of computers did to employment in the industry. Everyone prepared to give up their laptops? I do think that AI DM's is a bridge too far, all that says to me is that they don't understand D&D, the subtly of manoeuvring story components when DMing, AI just isn't up to it. PS: Regardless of AI, don't give WOTC money cos they have no respect for D&D lore nor its community so just support 3rd party RPG creators.
We need to get back to the time when many different table top systems grazed around the same RPG watering hole. Remember the 80's and early 90's? We need that again.
It's still there. We just need more people around it.
I have great memories of playing Paranoia (super under-rated but really fun!), World of Darkness, the Star Wars rpg, and more recently Band of Blades. The truth of it is, we're in a second age renaissance of ttrpgs and WotC is wobbling off its perch at the top. Brand recognition isn't enough anymore and the move to AI says to me that the people at the top are huffing that copium reeeal hard. The moment they realized they couldn't litigate Roll20 or Foundry out of existence, they panicked, and this is thr result. May Hasbro rot in hell.
@@RobertStoll It's mostly having more ppl around that I am talking about. :)
I'd actually say there are more RPGs with more players that AREN'T D&D today than there were in the 80s, in terms of absolute numbers. It's just the size of 5e makes it seem otherwise.
@@LordRenegrade Sure.
I feel like 80% of everybody's problems with AI is because it's still not up there quality-wise. The thing is, it keeps getting better, so when it finally gets over the threshold of good hands and details, what is left for people to hate?
AI won't take away the ability of a good artist to fix and improve the generated work, so why not embrace it and make way for more material to be created? As long as you are honest and correctly label art as art and generated images as generated images, no harm done. Yes, maybe there was some stolen work used during some "training" process without consent, but you can't undo that no matter how much you dislike the idea. It's the job of the artist to transform that media far enough, or just don't call themselves artists nor the material art, but nothing more, IMHO.
Even the whole deal about art being stolen still feels flimsy to me... a good artist can take reference and example from the internet and use their skill to make something new and everything is fine, but some very smart people take art from the internet and use their skill to make a new tool and everyone goes crazy? Just because it enables talentless people to create mediocre material? Soo, you shared something on the internet and it got stolen and used without your consent... what did you expect, really? Yes it sucks and it wasn't cool, but I'm not stopping anyone from enjoying AI on your behalf.
As an artist, I totally understand that some people want to use AI to make an image for their characters and such but AI art is a tool to make something quickly. It's not what you use to make quality art. It was only a matter of time before companies start using it to cut out using actual artists and writers and save some money at the expense of those who work in the arts. Typical...
If I could afford to pay a living artist to make the art for my characters, I would, but my options aren't 'Use AI or pay a real artist'; they are 'Use AI or be unable to have the look I want for my character'. In my case, AI is not replacing an artist such as yourself because the existence of AI has no impact on my ability to give you the money to draw me something awesome. For me and many others, AI is not replacing a human artist; it's replacing the something-vaguely-like-what-we-want image that we found online somewhere. WotC, of course, do not have that excuse and they're not getting my money, even if I could afford to buy their stuff.
@@BlueTressym like I said, I totally get players doing this. It’s also a good GM tool for a random city/street/forest but a huge multi million/billion dollar company that is making money hand over fist can afford to pay some artists and writers to make their content.
@@00tree Exactly.
@@BlueTressymI think they would be fine with you, it's very different when an individual person does it and when a corporation do it.
The 'no AI in final' is exactly what I'd want. The biggest ai disasters so far have all come from unsupervised AI.
That said, I'm already a non-customer for other reasons.
To be fair... the promise not to use AI was specific to art to be used in their books and trading cards. They never promised, and were fairly transparent about, looking to AI for development of digital products. This news is only surprising if you weren't paying attention to Hasbro. I will admit, however, I hadn't read the AI Art policy, but yeah, of course they would word it in such a way as to allow artists to continue to use generative ai in their process and to be able to revise their policy later once the use of generative ai becomes more widely acceptable. While I wasn't fully aware of the verbage used in their policy, this is also not surprising.
It's unsurprising but it *is* bitterly disapponting. Just another way to cut costs at the end of the day :/
@superzinbaproductions6689 Oh, absolutely. While it certainly isn't surprising, it doesn't make it any less disappointing, that's for sure.
Ok, hear me out. Anyone who tinkers with AI art knows that models are becoming pretty bad these days. It's what's happened after people have mixed models to death and now they can hardly make a coherent image. We still need "real" artists to make original works to train models that are actually good. And to train good models you need A LOT of images to train it properly. So it baffles me how "Artists" are up in arms over AI when their services are still clearly required.
I read two other things (rightly or wrongly) ... 1) That FAQ is for AI art. Not AI for everything else. And 2nd, the FAQ talks about restricting contributors to their products. It didn't say *they* wouldn't do it themselves.
This whole video is a pile of misinformation and rage bait.
Guys forgett about DnD. DC20 from TheDungeonCoach will be the new thing 🙃
Maybe Hasbro is hoping to support Ai customers
Alright.... Playing dc20 now I guess then... dungeon coach for the win.
Multiple issues here; for one - if a company says 'we wont do X',' and they continue to do X, the base has a right to a certain degree of upset. Similarly, if the price point of an item has a certain human-cost factored in - like, artist payment - but the art being paid for by the customers is, in fact, AI - reasonable complaint. All that said, I still FULLY do not understand the complaints against AI imaging so long as it's labeled as such. Generated art has made all of my game better, not worse. No one is entitled to my payments simply because they can provide a thing I'd like to have, especially if I can get it elsewhere for cheaper, or for 'nothing.'
I won't claim to have a grasp of all the nuances of AI images, but it mainly comes down to.. theft. Or copyright infringement. It's along those lines. AI doesn't work without the images that the AI learns from, and most artists who have had their art fed into AI databases have not agreed to that. So, their stuff is being used without their consent, and people/companies are then making money by selling images made with elements of works by artists who will never get paid or credited for that "contribution."
AI is likely to make any game better, it's incredibly useful when you can whip up an image to perfectly represent any NPC you can think of. But that's something you'd be doing to suit your needs*, not something you'd then sell for money as your own creation.
*Note that most artists would also prefer you not do this, but I acknowledge that many individuals who use AI images in their game would never have commissioned art to begin with, i.e., their use of AI is not a missed profit opportunity for the artists.
@@ZeKiwiOfTheNorth Very reasonable point re: AI tooling/sourcing. Good call out.
Some time around Van Richten's/Tasha's, I noticed the stark dropoff in quality that 5e had from their early days. Things were written poorly, changed for no reason of note and just overall lackluster. So I stopped buying stuff. (From WotC) Haven't regretted it yet. Poor quality is a bigger deal than any use of AI.
It takes less effort to make a ttrpg than it takes to learn how to play one that already exists, if you don't need to sell it. I know, I did it when I was 10 and didn't even know what D&D is. Quit bitching about WotC and do literally anything else. When they stop making money, they will either get in line with what the customer wants or the brand will fail and be sold off for next to nothing to someone who cares about the brand (most likely) and will make something better (most likely).
Hasbro AI Policy in simple terms - employees are required to scrub evidence of AI from the final product. Any AI that is spotted is therefore a violation of our policy. By definition. Clearly they aren't supplying their "creatives" with sufficient hours to comply with policy.
What they are probably doing is generating the image with AI and a DA do some passes over it to polish and hide the AI imperfections and giveaways.
I've got 3.5 and plenty of printer ink. Hazbro will get no money from me....I'm too busy giving it to best buy for freakin ink lol
10:45 but wasnt the whole point of people getting angry, cause WotC used AI to generate the DnD and Magic art ? So we got some weird hands with too many fingers and wolves with broken paws. And yeah that i can agree is just bad, mainly cause it makes us inferior quality products, and takes a job away from an artist that could draw hands.
12:17 Just like this says ! "Anti-AI ART stance"
So if they still hire that artist, who uses AI and "traces over" and fixes the mistakes the AI makes, like too many finges.. what is the issue ? The artist is still being employed, we still get a nice looking art in our books.. like literally WHAT IS THE PROBLEM ?!
And why would it be horrible if the AI is used in a video game ?? Where they might utilize it for example generating quests. So if the first character was assigned to go hunt 10 deer, the next guy might be sent to hunt 10 boars, cause deer are running low. Or maybe make the NPCs have "a life" so they dont just stand in their shop, 24/7. But instead might walk around the town, go fish for 10 minutes, at night walk to their house etc etc.
15:20 As a forever DM, if they would make a AI DM, and make their monsters and NPCs behave and learn depending what the party does, so if for example the dragon would notice that one of the party members is suddenly gone, it would be on lookout for a possible backstab, Or the party ventures into a direction what i had not planned to, and venture into a new town, i could press a button and the AI would generate the villagers and maybe a quest or two. And actually animate those "tokens" and most importantly, if the AI would be so good that I COULD FINALLY BE A PLAYER TOO.
I wouldnt be all against that..
Why arent you against creative people using modern pens or nice quality paper ?? Those did replace the old technology and jobs from the paper press guy and charcoal whittler who made pens from lumps of charcoal..AI being used to make quests or storylines or art is just a new step, right ?
Or are people just against AI in everything ? I dont quite get it. Please someone, can ya help me here and explain ?
Artists like to whine about how they should be the best paid and most adored and no soulless robot can replace their amazing talent.
The games of the 80's attracted people into STEM because it focussed on problem solving. The games today abandoned that for the failed drama kids and wannabe influencers.
I am really looking forward to AI in virtual tabletop and in production processes. D&D isn't a welfare program for artists.
I believe the issue is with the quality. AI is coming whether we want it or not. We should focus the AI on the problematic and inconsequential parts (What’s the name of that background character in this regional town- AI help me). But to use it as a quick cash grab to pump out art and adventure content at low quality just tarnishes the reputation. Add the lack of oversight by putting out art will errors shows they aren’t putting quality first.
Instead of easing the community into AI through helpful application, Hasbo is replacing the quality creatives for a cheap and easy solution. And for a game that caters to the creative types, the message is your value is only for our profits.
@@dennismoore8123 okay that is a good point. Thanks =)
4 min into the damn video and still no sign of what the new outrage is about. I’ll go see BobWorldBuilder for a better take that doesn’t lace quite so much hyperbole/metaphor into the opening.
holy crap again, jeeeez i hate capatalism.
You misspelled "woke bourgeois college leftists"
F.A.T.A.L.
Not just a game - a sad cry for help.
Okay, you got me, I laughed out loud on that one.
Unfortunately, they have a point, video game enemies, by default, do use AI, this is a thing, it's just not the same kind of AI used to write scripts or create images quickly and cheaply.
Beyond that, in theory, I actually don't have an issue with the idea of a vtt with the ability to work with an ai gm, that is an interesting tool, helpful in testing build concepts and characters, and if you can make it play a player chatacter party with you as the gm instead, it's a great tool in balancing encounters
In all actuality, there is value in what they're presenting, the issue I take with this is the fact WotC is the ones presenting it, despite their attempts to appear they will not, and with their existing history of not giving a damn
Never been this early to a Discourse video, oh boy! Capitalism just won't stop enshittifying things. I lucked out getting out of D&D for systems that better fit the flavors of fantasy I want to run my games in.
You spelled "woke bourgeois leftists" wrong, tovarish Greta Thunbergsteinmann.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 bro thinks the rich are leftists 🤡
The only thing more based than a woke leftist is a rabbi
@@mogscugg2639 but of course the rich is leftist; wants all other people's efforts to him and relies on the government to back him\her. You clearly do not know their mindset.
@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 No I ran the spell check. "Capitalism" was spelled correctly.
@@Zalinth So you're taking the psychotic burgeouis champagne left" for normal people when they try to run businesses that create real stuff. That's precisely what a broke woke bourgeois leftist would do.
Yeay I clicked again the same thumbnail and I liked it xD thanks for Pavloving me so well xD on to the video!
Its a pretty smart move by them to keep pushing down this road
The scary thing is they are right, you can tell AI art now but in 5 years you wont be able to tell the difference between a human made D&D product and an AI made one
They will use AI no matter what people say or do, the idea of endless free content generation is impossible for a company to ignore
This feels incredibly brain dead - this is obviously about the kind of AI thats been used in video games for dozens of years. Not about the bad kind.
A stated policy that can be changed at their whim doesn't need a loophole. It is one in it's entirety. It was never more than so much dust in the wind. They will continue to use AI art and it will be an expanding trend among those companies that put profit over passion in their creations. The box has been opened and there will be no closing of it.
hasbro has as much power as we give them. we will play the game without them. if they stop releasing versions and materials then we will make our own.
Dungeons & Discourse is the only D&D I support
you missed a bit of legalese. it says that they require "artist writers and creatives" to "refrain from using ai" that means they can also hire a number cruncher or other office worker type to do the ai instead
Yeah knew they were lying for along time, the manipulative legal language were enough for me when they first started their shenanigans.
Eu não sei o que mais a Hasbro e a WoTC podem fazer mais para jogar na lama nosso amado D&D. 50 anos de D&D, dos quais 31 eu jogo estão sendo literalmente assassinados por esse fabricante medíocre de brinquedos.
Thank you, sir. May I have another?
I do a video every two weeks :)
Pathfinder 2e folks!!! :=8)
I wish Hasbro would sell WotC, but you know Disney would just buy it 😞
Sooooooooo, Grognards protecting the hobby they love from destructive new players is gatekeeping, but destructive new players preventing new technology from joining the game is absolutely fine?!?!
The cognitive dissonance continues...
Huh
Please stop giving your money to Hasbro.
Once MtG started crossovers, it was all over since then.
To be honest, I believe that Hasbro has a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to replace every executive, director, and manager with an Artificial Human, who will require neither a salary, bonuses, nor stock options.
The savings can be returned to the stockholders in the form of an AI dividend.
😂😂😂😂
This dude is quite annoying and cringe...
WOTC working on a way to charge you for your imagination… using an imagination, that’s a violation of the terms of service 😅
Me every week: I wonder what's going on on UA-cam...yup, wotc has a scandle again
It has been a very long year