mate of mine gave me T&T for xmas last year and this year we're finally going to play it for a Paddy's Day one-shot: The PCs are leprechauns trying to rescue King Brian from Darby O'Gill, and everyone has to do their worst culchie accent or they lose dice, loser has to eat a box of Lucky Charms
The reasoning behind level limits is weird. One part of it is that the Demihumans have abilities that Humans don’t have (Halflings can hide really well, Dwarves get a bonus to seeing strange stonework, Elves get a bonus to finding hidden doors, they all have Darkvision), so they’re capped. But they also take longer to level up. The other reason is that in OD&D once you got to a certain level, you were supposed to stop adventuring. Fighters became lords with castles and land. Clerics started a religious sect and managed a temple. Magic Users built a wizard’s tower and took on apprentices. Gary believed that demihumans shouldn’t be part of this, because they’re supposed to be rare, and why would they bother getting wrapped up in the affairs of men. Or something to that effect. I think the limit on Hobbits/Halflings being so low is just because Gary hated them, but I have no idea. They just seem to suck.
Thank you for the great comment. I think the retirement explanation for level limits is the best I've heard. In Brosr style of play, retired characters could become patrons. This makes a lot of sense 🤔
Demihumans also had multiclass options, which is the main thing that slowed down their leveling, which humans couldn't do. Humans could POTENTIALLY take a second class if they had a 17 stat, but the others could basically all start with multiple classes at level 1.
I prefer the D&D combat system, but I love the imaginative weird stories in the T&T solo adventures. Plus I love the fact that T&T introduced ability score increases for characters who level up. I bet this is where 3rd edition D&D got their similar system from (ability score increases every few levels).
Level limits on non humans in old d&d are because they are inherently more powerful than humans. Dwarves in OD&D actually had an ability to automatically detect hidden passages and navigate perfectly underground, and that's on top of them making saves at four levels higher and taking half damage from large monsters. So yeah, I get why they had class and level limits.
With Rick Loomis gone, Flying Buffalo is sorta falling apart. I used to play T&T and several of their PBM games. I don't any more as they are all coming apart with Rick gone. He was a great guy, met him at several conventions.
AFAIK, the lawsuit against TSR from the Tolkien estate attempted to have TSR remove the words: balrog, dragon, dwarf, elf, ent, goblin, hobbit, orc, and warg from the game. It was settled out of court, with TSR succeeding in keeping dragon, dwarf, elf, goblin, orc and warg, having claimed they were words in public domain, but hobbit was changed to halfling, ent to treant, and balrog to balor in Tolkien's favor. Your on-screen blurb regarding "5e doesn't even have halflings now" is comfusing; if you mean D&D 5e, they are on p 26 of the 5E PH. Tunnels & Trolls was probably obsequious enough to keep the name hobbit, but starting with the 7e rules, they've been renamed "hobb". Maybe Tolkien's estate got wind of it.
I like Tunnels and Trolls better because it is much easier to play solo or solitaire. I often have times when I want to play, but no one is available to play with me. I don't do virtual table top and that sort of thing because I prefer my tabletop RPGs to be low tech breaks from computers, phones and such. You can also play it with a group and it works just fine. Very little adjusting is needed to play T&T solo or in a group. I also like T&T better because it is quicker and easier to learn. I have taught new players how to play T&T with confidence in just one sitting. Yet, while it is easy to learn, T&T is robust enough to use for any length or complexity of campaign that you want. Combat in T&T is quicker and more dynamic. People complain about combat in D&D being too slow and boring. The solution, of course, is to role play during combat, but not every player gets super into role playing their characters so they tend to play combat in RPGs in general as though it was a board game. Anyway, as Stephen says, combat is faster and gets easier as you do damage in T&T so it's a good thing to try with groups who get bored by combat in D&D. You can use minis and war maps in T&T if you want to. It comes in handy for any RPG for keeping things a bit more clear for players as to what is going on and who is where. I always find that using minis and maps prevents a lot of arguments over what is happening since each player and DM has a different picture in his mind. That's an issue with theater of the mind: we don't all see the same thing on stage. Theater of the Mind is like having a party with multiple pinatas and having a group of kids who are all wearing blindfolds swinging at them. Wargaming (for lack of a better term to contrast theater of the mind with at the moment) takes the blindfold off so everyone can see that the enemies are in the same spots. Magic is more interesting to me because you can make your own monsters rather easily and you can cast more variety of magic spells. The idea of magic casting lowering your strength is a good idea as it keeps magic from getting too overpowered in a very simple way. Much simpler than D&D. Finally, Ken St. Andre is a really fun and interesting guy who is still around and quite willing to chat with anyone on social media. Flying Buffalo and now Rebellion Unplugged - both of which are smaller companies that are still closer to the gamers they publish for and are quite accessible. D&D is published by Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of toy giant Hasbro and is very corporate. T&T wins for me.
The level limits come in real handy when your rolls are bad. Play a demi human with a 4 or 5 level cap. If you can safely retire that character. That may be considered an accomplishment. Because your going need to roll up another character anyways. This will likely be due to the first character's low probability for survival.
My younger self loves D&D but my older self prefers T&T.
mate of mine gave me T&T for xmas last year and this year we're finally going to play it for a Paddy's Day one-shot: The PCs are leprechauns trying to rescue King Brian from Darby O'Gill, and everyone has to do their worst culchie accent or they lose dice, loser has to eat a box of Lucky Charms
That sounds like so much fun! Thank you.
The reasoning behind level limits is weird. One part of it is that the Demihumans have abilities that Humans don’t have (Halflings can hide really well, Dwarves get a bonus to seeing strange stonework, Elves get a bonus to finding hidden doors, they all have Darkvision), so they’re capped. But they also take longer to level up.
The other reason is that in OD&D once you got to a certain level, you were supposed to stop adventuring. Fighters became lords with castles and land. Clerics started a religious sect and managed a temple. Magic Users built a wizard’s tower and took on apprentices. Gary believed that demihumans shouldn’t be part of this, because they’re supposed to be rare, and why would they bother getting wrapped up in the affairs of men. Or something to that effect.
I think the limit on Hobbits/Halflings being so low is just because Gary hated them, but I have no idea. They just seem to suck.
Thank you for the great comment. I think the retirement explanation for level limits is the best I've heard. In Brosr style of play, retired characters could become patrons. This makes a lot of sense 🤔
Demihumans also had multiclass options, which is the main thing that slowed down their leveling, which humans couldn't do. Humans could POTENTIALLY take a second class if they had a 17 stat, but the others could basically all start with multiple classes at level 1.
I prefer the D&D combat system, but I love the imaginative weird stories in the T&T solo adventures. Plus I love the fact that T&T introduced ability score increases for characters who level up. I bet this is where 3rd edition D&D got their similar system from (ability score increases every few levels).
Rolemaster has a system for stat increases too. I wonder if T&T was the first to implement such a system? Thank you for the comment.
Tunnels and Trolls is my favorite of all time
Wow! Why?
Basically T&T was an open source game while D&D tried to copyright everything
I didn't realize that. I'll need to look into that. I wonder if it still is? Thank you for letting me know.
@@mstephenjoyyes. I think a new edition may be in the works the pdf is on drive thru. M
Are certain you buy from flying buffalo
Level limits on non humans in old d&d are because they are inherently more powerful than humans. Dwarves in OD&D actually had an ability to automatically detect hidden passages and navigate perfectly underground, and that's on top of them making saves at four levels higher and taking half damage from large monsters.
So yeah, I get why they had class and level limits.
In the most recent T&T, Hobbits are now called Hobbs.
With Rick Loomis gone, Flying Buffalo is sorta falling apart. I used to play T&T and several of their PBM games. I don't any more as they are all coming apart with Rick gone. He was a great guy, met him at several conventions.
AFAIK, the lawsuit against TSR from the Tolkien estate attempted to have TSR remove the words: balrog, dragon, dwarf, elf, ent, goblin, hobbit, orc, and warg from the game. It was settled out of court, with TSR succeeding in keeping dragon, dwarf, elf, goblin, orc and warg, having claimed they were words in public domain, but hobbit was changed to halfling, ent to treant, and balrog to balor in Tolkien's favor. Your on-screen blurb regarding "5e doesn't even have halflings now" is comfusing; if you mean D&D 5e, they are on p 26 of the 5E PH. Tunnels & Trolls was probably obsequious enough to keep the name hobbit, but starting with the 7e rules, they've been renamed "hobb". Maybe Tolkien's estate got wind of it.
Wow, thanks for the comment.
@@mstephenjoy yes Haflings are in 5e, the different subraces are broken down into lightfoot and stout. There may be more that I am forgetting
They are both fun.
Absolutely 💯 thank you for saying so.
I still feel bad not getting Deluxe Tunnels and Trolls when it was in print. I did get the pdf for the 5e. I got it printed for free.
Hey! Do you when will T&T physical books be available ? I just got into T&T and can’t find a single physical book to buy at Amazon 😅
@@DanBP21 I could only find it as a pdf.
@@messenger3478 thanks!
I like Tunnels and Trolls better because it is much easier to play solo or solitaire. I often have times when I want to play, but no one is available to play with me. I don't do virtual table top and that sort of thing because I prefer my tabletop RPGs to be low tech breaks from computers, phones and such. You can also play it with a group and it works just fine. Very little adjusting is needed to play T&T solo or in a group.
I also like T&T better because it is quicker and easier to learn. I have taught new players how to play T&T with confidence in just one sitting. Yet, while it is easy to learn, T&T is robust enough to use for any length or complexity of campaign that you want.
Combat in T&T is quicker and more dynamic. People complain about combat in D&D being too slow and boring. The solution, of course, is to role play during combat, but not every player gets super into role playing their characters so they tend to play combat in RPGs in general as though it was a board game. Anyway, as Stephen says, combat is faster and gets easier as you do damage in T&T so it's a good thing to try with groups who get bored by combat in D&D.
You can use minis and war maps in T&T if you want to. It comes in handy for any RPG for keeping things a bit more clear for players as to what is going on and who is where. I always find that using minis and maps prevents a lot of arguments over what is happening since each player and DM has a different picture in his mind. That's an issue with theater of the mind: we don't all see the same thing on stage. Theater of the Mind is like having a party with multiple pinatas and having a group of kids who are all wearing blindfolds swinging at them. Wargaming (for lack of a better term to contrast theater of the mind with at the moment) takes the blindfold off so everyone can see that the enemies are in the same spots.
Magic is more interesting to me because you can make your own monsters rather easily and you can cast more variety of magic spells. The idea of magic casting lowering your strength is a good idea as it keeps magic from getting too overpowered in a very simple way. Much simpler than D&D.
Finally, Ken St. Andre is a really fun and interesting guy who is still around and quite willing to chat with anyone on social media. Flying Buffalo and now Rebellion Unplugged - both of which are smaller companies that are still closer to the gamers they publish for and are quite accessible. D&D is published by Wizards of the Coast, a subsidiary of toy giant Hasbro and is very corporate.
T&T wins for me.
@enfieldjohn101 That's awesome. Thank you for commenting.
The level limits come in real handy when your rolls are bad. Play a demi human with a 4 or 5 level cap. If you can safely retire that character. That may be considered an accomplishment. Because your going need to roll up another character anyways. This will likely be due to the first character's low probability for survival.
Thank you, that's a good point.
I love both cheeseburgers and pizza. Why make me choose!?! 😁
Tunnels and Trolls won easy ;)
Duly noted. Thank you for commenting.
T&T is comparable to, and, in fact, inspired by, OD&D.
Moldvay....100%
Tunnels and Trolls has been around since the 70s. It was never popular.