Why You Should UNINSTALL your DPS Meter
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- Опубліковано 4 гру 2022
- Addons can be a nice way to customize your game experience in MMOs, but when DPS meters become so ingrained in the culture that you obsess over them... maybe it's time to take a step back.
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A Haiku
D P S Meter
Shows me how to get better
I'm a mechanist
rofl
stow the mechs auto attack cast with f7, i think its 4k dps increase and way to much effort for me to care
Nice senryu
xd
Enlightenment can be achieved in this life after all.
I remember, when commanding some entry level content (I think it was icebrood saga strikes) I had a mechanist alacdps try to publically shame me for being bad at the game for doing less damage than he did.
I was the healer.
Lol i had someone say the same thing in wvw while i was healing on my minstrel scrapper
I use Arc. But I never use it to shame people whose dps is low. I treat it like a self-improvement tool; but also to see where my damage is coming from.
Which of my skills do the majority of my damage, so if I need to adapt to mechanics, particularly when learning encounters, I know which of my skills to focus on, and which I can leave to give myself breathing room to be able to complete the mechanics.
So in that respect, it can be very helpful when learning a new class/build since there is so much more to learning a class than just practicing the meta build's rotation.
So I don't think Arc is bad. It's a tool, and tools can be used in different ways. If dps meters didn't exist then it would be some other performance metric that some players would use to shame others for how they did in group content.
I think rather than telling people 'don't use the tool', the conversation should revolve around etiquette. What and how to use it for, and what not to use it for.
For some, focusing on performance and pushing themselves is how they get fun out of the game, for others, it's class fantasy. For some it's a blend of the two, and that's where I find myself.
I'll play the pre-patch power Reaper even though it was considered an underperformer, but i'll try to play it as well as I can, because I enjoy it, not because I'm pumping the best numbers among power classes.
I've actually had more fun in the game since I downloaded arc dps. In a game like gw2 where the gameplay is doing the exact same fights over and over, dps meter is a fun way for me to know how I'm progressing at playing a build. Competing with myself to hit big dps, boon strips, or heals keeps the game interesting.
Why uninstall dps meter? it's such a good tool to improve "class mechanic". This video is more about the player priority when fighting bosses and it should be survival > boss mechanics > dps
I appreciate the sentiment of this video, but I also don't think that having a dps meter and wanting to do as much damage as possible is mutually exclusive with doing mechanics, providing boon uptime, or having fun with the game. I use arcdps so that I can log fights in raids/strikes and it measures how much dps I do as well as boon uptime provided (I play quick scrapper), damage taken as well as mechanics I messed up on. For me, the fun of group content is doing as much dps as possible while also doing everything else properly.
i'll never uninstall arcdps, i can't even imagine playing without my "warning: content mismatch, error: couldnt find pattern: 59" window!
I feel like I'm bringing down the room here but I think this video isn't against dps meters but against a certain way of playing games. Some people will hold the dps-meter as the method when it's the result as well as some people hold that the mechanics is all that matters when it's the method for delivering the result. I've legit seen ppl believe that if we do mechanics right then the boss will fall over, and I've seen that people feel that if the dps was 10k more it would die when we haven't reached phase 2. I feel like the dps meter is useful to measure one of these things but not the other. Some fights will have some dps be lower because they handle mechanics so that the boss can die, but the guys hammering the boss in the meantime are contributing as well. I like to do odd jobs in fights and don't much like to just stand there swinging, but I appreciate the people who do all the same, because it allows the fight to go smoothly.
To me the meter is kind of fun and I miss it when it isn't there. I like being able to tell when I do something right and when I meme in a dungeon I can get the results and know that a ton more ppl got that message too. I've shared in other peoples joy over getting that parse, or getting good damage in dungeons. I've also seen a lot of people suffer because they can't reach those numbers and try to rationalize it when they should maybe realize their limitations and do what's fun for them. I've also seen stupid people demanding ridiculous itemlevel or dps in PUGs, but if you honestly think disabling dps-meters will make PUGs less bad then I honestly don't know what to say to that.
I only use DPS meters in new builds so I can see the source of my damaged not how much
I've never asked for it in the comments, but I've often wanted a dps meter on your pve builds so that I could measure if I was doing the rotation correctly. if the numbers match up, it means I was playing the build as intended.
why? without dps meter, you can match the kill time and if it matches, then the rotations (or whatever you may call it) is fine if not the same.
@@boschmitch with a dps meter you can see what you’re doing wrong. kill time gives no information about the skills you are/aren’t pressing, whether you’re cancelling skills, when you are pressing skills, and in what order you’re pressing them. this comes from the arcdps log, and it’s very important for improving at a class.
@@boschmitch i copied other youtuber scourge build same gear, stats, rotations, etc but for some reason i only do 25-27k dps on golem compared to his 35k dps.
with dps meter at least i know i did something wrong, even though i still don't know what exactly i'm doing wrong.
@@pinnacull Ummm, record your game play and problem solved as to what you missed or didn't miss. the DPS meter still isn't truly needed. People are so focused on what their dps numbers and forget what the game is actually about. Vallun hit the nail on the head with this.
@@Ham68229 mate, you really think that comparing your recording to the benchmark's is better than comparing your log's to theirs? It's absolutely not. On top of that, you can record AND use arc simultaneously anyways. I feel like you're either just being stubborn or have never actually tried doing any sort of rotation.
Dps numbers are actually important. The hardest content in the game requires that you know your rotation well enough to do it properly while completing mechanics in order to actually phase the boss. Even the easier content's 'difficulty' can be solved by having good dps in your squad to phase the boss faster and not have to deal with mechanics that slower groups would.
In open world it doesn't matter for most people because the 5-10 people who have arcdps are carrying the map so the other 40 people only need to auto attack, however in instanced content that is not the case.
This is EXACTLY why I started my "most fun" build videos. Even then I always get comments of, "bUt ThIs IsNt mEtA! Must be bad!" Solid video dude.
I love your "most fun builds" :)
Vallun - my favorite game ethics professor :)
I'm almost always playing DPS. Even when I'm on a healer build, I try to do as much DPS as possible when I don't need to heal right now - I know it has a low impact but it's not zero so I'll do it.
I do use arcdps because I want to see how I improve over time and if play my current class well enough in fractals or dungeons to decide if I bring them to raids for example.
I also compare my DPS between different bosses to see if that build is doing well (when played by me) on a boss or if it's better to chose another class.
I also started using OBS to capture the last 15min into cache and have the possibility to save it by pressing F10.
If something unexpected happens, I can replay the last 15min and check what happened. It's really useful!
Im going to be honest, though there are some valid points you bring up (tunnel visioning dps and the overall culture behind dps) some of these takes do not make sense.
1.) It is better to record yourself and practice in a controlled environment
The dps meter is immediate feedback and with the right eye looking at the data it is the most effective tool to improve by far. At high levels you cant easily see what you are doing wrong so that meter helps a lot.
2. People comparing their dps to those who give boons or heal
That is a straw man argument for a super majority of the community, no one compares the dps of the healers/ boons to that of the standard dps
3. They should put more focus on survival and mechanics
Arc dps has a mechanics log, though way too many people tunnel on damage this could be an argument to keep arc installed.
I do agree with some of the sentiment in this video, there is an overall obsession with dps and meta, often from people who do not even know how to play the builds right. It can be toxic at times. Either way it is important to point out the conjecture.
1. at high levels the dps meter is absolutely necessary, this video is not aimed at players who are trying to min max though
2. there are definitely people in the comments suggesting otherwise, that people will blame healers for low dps, but the entire point is to explain the basics im sure you can imagine further how the utility of one person moving out of the group to take less damage during a mechanic would lower their dps but reduce the pressure on their group
My point isn't against the correct usage of dps meters, its against the misuse of them, and knowing the tendencies of most players they will tend to misuse them and therefore should just uninstall them
@@Vallun 1.) at no point do you distinguish who you are talking about exactly
2.) Its a tool, though many misuse it to argue most should throw it away instead of learning how to use it is a reach. You not even addressing the third point is proof as to one of its many applications.
When raiding was first a thing smashing your head against a boss and not knowing why is frustrating, now there is data for mechanics and dps. This cause the average player to massively improve. It is why a lot MMOs (runescape, wow) all have those metrics
@jason smith I agreed with your third point, but if you want to draw an arbitrary line lets do it, how many people should be using a dps meter? at what point does it become useful? we talking about like 10% of the playerbase? Even at 25% of the players it is still a majority of people who should not use them. So yes my video is aimed at a majority of the playerbase, not some niche elitists going for titles that only 1% of the playerbase have on gw2efficiency
Can't agree more. I hate dps meters as I see them as a form of toxicity. I play because I enjoy it, I hear it in WvW blobs on discord and people getting called out by the commander which I think is a little embarrassing for those players.
I kinda think people take this like a job. Like builds are their resumes and they want to make it look as good as possible, optimal as possible.
I swore never to touch a DPS meter shortly after regularly farming t4 fractals. I had 2 cases (a weaver in Nightmare, a dd in Twilight) where they brought pure DPS builds and no cc, then would go down repeatedly shortly after the fight. In the Nightmare case the party leader used a DPS meter and accused me of being the parties problem, ignoring the facts that I never went down and was doing the majority of the cc.
5 years later I still see cases like this, people using DPS meters in areas were there isn't even a need to optimize. And every time they will ignore everything but how low someone's DPS is just so they can rag on them
nice video:) had an example at olc recently, com was saying "lowest dps kicked on wipes" that type of stuff has to go. i do appreciate it for dialing in builds. like recently getting myself to stop canceling my auto attack chain constantly on mirage
Well that toxic and has nothing to do with arc anyway. Technically he would be violating the first arc rule... "don't be an asshole". 😄
But there are cases where a dpsmeter can help you spot people who actually would need some help.
I feel like you began the video with a really interesting idea - players optimizing the fun out of a game - then switched to different, less interesting topic that has been talked about previously. Still a great video I just wish you had continued about the first topic.
i have a few videos about that topic already, like the optimal vs viable video, and the should you play the meta video, both are in the same playlist linked in description
the video you're looking for is called Why it's Rude to Suck at Warcraft by Folding Ideas
I theorycraft a lot of new builds and playstyles. I'm currently working on a playstyle for catalyst where you use fresh air to ensure you always have air attunement up for CC. I've also tweaked the rotation to avoid going into earth attunement. This makes sure you always have it up for aegis when you need it. DPS meter is just one tool in my arsenal to help with theorycrafting, but I turn it off mid fight because it's distracting.
I feel you bro. Fun comes first, always. Thx for this video.
What I got from this video is to simply join a group.
Cool stuff! Your point of game designers not including dps meters from start is funny but very true!
I wish I could click the like button more than once! DPS meters are a great tool that, unfortunately, is misunderstood and often misused to do nothing but judge others in a toxic manner during encounters. I encourage my guild to use DPS meters for self improvement but ban them during any group activities. There are too many variables that can drop a players DPS that unfortunately get overshadowed.
Brilliant video, so glad you posted this.
I love arc, because I am a number nut. I do, however, do not care at all when in pugs. AT ALL. It's not what pugs are for. Normally when I pug, it's heal scourge, support alac tempest, or something along those lines that can carry below par players. It's better that way. I would rather run with a full cele group with rando's than any snowcrows meta build. Snowcrows is for me and like minded people that sweat easy content. When i'm off hours just running, it's actually nice to just run wonky builds that support. Way more satisfying, to me, when a run is a success because of your knowledge and solid build craft.
The unspoken problem with DPS meters is that it assumes you are using a build that is maximizing DPS, which for many fights is NOT helping your group survive. What good is going all DPS on a mesmer against Matthias if your group has no reflects, for example? What is the point of bringing a firebrand if you're not going to bring skills like "stand your ground" or "advance" or use your F2/F3 when the situation merits? I learned that I don't have time to bother with pitch perfect rotations, instead I use classes that have high floor so I'm not an anchor, and learn how to best utilize it for specific encounters. Unless you are speed running with a static, I'll happily sacrifice 2-3k DPS if it means saving one wipe per wing.
i killed the fun for myself for a while after installing arc some time ago. i really liked playing tempest, but it turns out it had no dps at that point, so ive started swapping toons, and i soon realised that whether i "liked" any new toon/build was tied to the dps it was doing. so i was swapping toons until i realised i was pretty much forcing myself into playing what i didnt consider fun just for the dps (which as u said, for casual use has no meaning anyways, and nothing to comapre it to). after a while i came back, no arc this time, and am having a blast playing none-meta builds mostly. also got a lot better at combat overal. have since installed arc again, but only enable it to do some golem testing, or just simply check stuff out since i love buildcrafting, and as a tool for such purpose arc is actually good.
and for the record, i do love doing lots of dps, but wrong use of a dps meter can definitely destroy the fun, and even hinder skill gain, negatively affecting the actual dps.
DPS meters can make raiding toxic. Also you can't dps if you are dead or failing mechanics. The only reason high dps matters is a enrage timer or if you are speed running. Other then that if the fight is cleared it doesn't matter.
I'm fairly new to GW2 (500hrs in) and I'm so glad Vallun is one of those gw2 content creators I've found. I love your principles. And yes, one of them is not using a dps meter. I'm just so glad I'm learning from one of the best people in gw2 community. I'm on the right path :)
@@nebylicza Yeah I still categorize myself as a relatively new player. I haven't touched most of what the game can offer just yet. And would you believe me if I told you I haven't played any single fractal, strike, and raid yet? 🤣 I just got my Skyscale 1 month ago. I have EoD but I haven't gone thru it. Oh boy, I still have a lot of things to do and experience for the first time.
If you guys are wondering what I have done with my 500 hours, well, most of them are playing thru the Open World (I love the OW) and making other characters and manually leveling them to 80, and grinding enough Hero Points to unlock the 3 elite spec (yes, I got them all 3 elite specs without even touching EoD maps -- Just the core maps, HoT and PoF).
@@nebylicza lmao right :D
Great video as allways ! Thanks !
Well said, that's why I love your builds, and build off of them, and if I need to increase DPS a little more, (using DPS Meter) to find a balance, I'll take bits from meta and incorporate it little by little when needed.
Great video, thank you!
I like to consider dps meters as a tool, not the bible.
Using them in conjunction with analyzing logs after the fights, practicing and just generally trying to get better has helped me to pinpoint where I am lacking and how I can improve it.
If I'm on sabetha and do less damage as a DPS peepo than the person doing 1 3 I know it's time for me to pluck my fingers out of my bosom because it probably shouldn't be happening. If I see I did a shitty ass pull on Matthias but look at the long and see that I was targeted by 1/3 of the poisons in the fight I won't treat that low damage number the same I would if I was able to UNGA bunga on the boss uninterrupted.
And when I finally get close to top meter thanks to what I've learned I feel great, because I know that the reason why I'm in this place is because I put in the effort.
I don't really know where I was going with this comment, I think I wanted to say that DPS meters, just like recording softwares are simply tools and that the reason why they seem to have a bad impact on a subset of the population is simply because those players take every chance they get to feed their defective sense of self worth
Edit: also when I record I drop below 24fps so I can't always record in high pressure situations
thanks for the video and even though I'm an average player, I'm used to see and to read that I need a DPS meter to go through the endgame but maybe I don't ^^
do you have any suggestions to people who try to learn strikes and raid but cant commit to fixed schedule for guild arrangements? i am studying Medicine and that takes up majority of my time but do fractals and some world bosses in my freetime, and unlike fractals there arent much training squads available and too many requiring experienced players to do them, iam not spiting them i am just curious if there is any way to get into it casually
just start from T1 and pug it. Its easy. If you are nervous, just make your party with something like"chill group" a you will be fine :)
study the raid guides on guildjen.com and then join a group in the lfg that isnt asking for kp, and just try to do the mechanics and not die, low dps iss excusable but dying isnt
@@Vallun thanks for the info! ima try that
@@Vallun dying isn't excusable? what do you mean? It's ok to ask a player to google some guides to not waste too much time, but it should not be necessary, if a player is doing a content for the first time it's ok if he dies, no one is perfect and we can always help them improve
How do you actualy uninstall arcdps?
I had installed it a while back to try it out. But didn't find it handy, but with updates to the game I am now getting error messages. And instead of updating arcdps I just want to remove it.
But I can't see how. I had deleted the map in the addons folder but it keeps comming back and my game now craches.
go to the ARCDPS site, and look at their process for installing, but instead of putting the file they give you in the folder, you delete the file, should be the dldx11 or something file
the "gamer girl" where she uses her other hand for "texting" was funny.. xddddd keep it up, love your content
ive not raided in gw2 so i dont need dps meters in fractals and stuff . but i feel like i should need one when i start to do raid later . maybe because i came from WoW , its a norm over there with addons .
anyway how do i gauge my performance in raids for example like death log, what did i take damage from and stuff like that besides combat log ?
you mostly watch animations, its not quite the same as wow where there are so many things that go on behind the scenes that you need a combat log. Though you could still look at combat log, it usually wont tell you much. Best is to just research the fight through wiki or guides, and then understand all the possible things that could kill you.
@@Vallun i see , thanks for the quick reply . i have much to adapt to .
I just created my own build from the ground up over the course of my play time. I can now hold my own to at least last on most skirmishes of wvw. It was really fun!
I use ArcDPS for fractals only as HealBrand Support, i have everything else turned off in ArcDPS
As a player of advanced age I generally run LI builds because I want to enjoy GW2, I did try a DPS meter but found it distracting and I didn’t want to spend time analysing it, I have never run a raid or PvP’d, I’ve run a few fractals and a dungeon or two. As long as I’m staying alive I’m doing some good and I’m having fun. If I see in chat any “bad-mouthing” against anybody it’s an instant block! I will try different builds, rarely meta, to see which ones I enjoy most and which ones suit my play style.
so you do nothing in the game pretty much
@@hush9185 What useful thing did you want to say with this comment?
We use it to check the logs later to see what training can be done to complete the mechanics, I use it on occasion in strikes to see if I am at least getting my rotation down to min max my DMG. There are people who pad the meter with trash mobs so they aren't called out for DMG or Heals in WvW guilds.
I do agree with this point: people who don't understand why DPS meters are useful should not use them. However, I think that, in this day and age, most people understand their purpose. I also think that the amount of experience you have with the game puts you in a position where you don't really need DPS meters anymore. New players who want to learn can be fast-tracked by them.
I completely agree with you, you need as someone who is learning something new to see for yourself how well you are doing and to be able to compare yourself to the standard very strange that we don't have it by default in the game because it creates a situation when someone joins endgame and it turns out that he can't do anything
What are your thoughts on the idea that 1 of 10, the commander who is experienced in reading arc, helping the group as long as they can accurately assess improvement in their friends and fellow players? For me personally, I found trusting my friend over what arc told me in new encounters was better because learning is always a cost to me whether it's dps or boons so I need to trust in my more knowledgeable friends that they see the improvement that seems to evade me. Similarly, the reason I came up with this is because I was asked to run arc when I did not want to in order to tell my friends if they were "keeping up" (pulling their proper weight) without having to check it themselves. We improved far more this way, once I learned how to read arc, than by all having arc and interpreting it separately. Having 1 knowledgeable person interpret the arc after each pull to change strategies and replay the fight to show mechanics has been a really great system. It isn't always me with arc, sometimes it's bbbaconboy but we listen to the person with knowledge and relax. Would you promote this system for players who are anxious about performance but want to improve? If so, how does one identify oneself as such a commander?
Ah BBBaconboy got back to me and pointed out I should clarify something. When one is *teaching* I like this method.
I agree!
@@BBBaconBoy I couldn't agree more. That's kind of why I'm stumped, how does the community "decide on" or "identify" these people? I think it's on the community a bit but I'm not sure how to implement it.
@@carus332 I think its definitely on the community to highlight good commanders. Also, there needs to be a push on the community side to say yes there are bad apples. The new person needs to understand it's because the com doesn't know you or your situation, so they can be more standoffish or they are just jerks. Better communication is key, I tend to not talk in VC unless someone knows I'm disabled because I don't want to put myself in that situation. Internet people can be mean
i agree, a guild group looking to improve should have people with this responsibility, a pug should keep this info to themselves if they decide to use it
@@Vallun Also you have the absolute best voice for narration and I'd like you to please narrate my life so I seem classy, thank you!
One of your best videos to date! I appreciate and agree with your outlook!
ALL OF THIS!! Thank you for saying what needed to be said. Ive been wanting to do raids for awhile now, but due to my non-meta builds, I was quickly intimidated from doing it pretty shortly after release of HoT. I know the battles are tight and there are important mechanics to pay attention to in raids, but I feel like i can't even practice those because my build isnt dictated to me from a website. I feel like I am missing out on good lore and fun gameplay and I wish the raiding community was a bit less toxic and more accessible. Here's to hoping for a change before the next expansion
so you want a easy ride and put in less effort so others have to pick up your slack, if you know your going into content your build doesnt work in why are you complaining
Wait for what change? you know that something is not working in your build yet you do nothing to fix it. You realize that in gw2 1 character can have multiple builds right? i mean you can keep playing the non-meta build you enjoy and make a meta build specific for raids (if raids are what you want to explore)
@@hush9185 no he dont but you are among the ones that ruin the game its almost like a work and i bet you dont spend any time to learn ppl either pff :X
yes they are toxic and that show on the comments here too ..sad ppl prefer greed over fun and dont take time to teach anyone anything.
night elf rogue with dal rends on classic?? you're throwing and gimping your dps - should've gone human for that sword skill!!!!
(joking obviously)
this was refreshing to watch, vallun. out of curiosity, where do you stand on utilizing logs to figure out why groups failed (i'm not talking about chasing parses for validation, just using them to see what went wrong mechanically)? i know you mentioned recording for analysis, which is great, but despite hating the parse mentality, i've found logs useful for comprehensive analysis.
also, could you do a video on addons? i'd love to see your take on them (necessary evil vs optional? invasive vs helpful?)
1. logs are good when progressing, and i've used them before. But players who don't know how to use that information shouldn't be the ones to analyze them. Commanders or some specific persons in the group with the ability to analyze that stuff and make proper conclusions.
2. addons provide more options which is nice, gw2 always lacked customizability even though the UI was so good it only offered a few ways to view it. Of course its a trade off because you let players make bad looking UIs the more customizability you give them which can result in your game looking worse
@@Vallun makes sense, and i agree. i'd love to be able to move/resize the target frame in gw2 and highlight certain buffs (currently playing with zero addons).
This video is gold. Meta can be fun but it's not the be all and end all. I got into gaming because it was immersive and fuelled my imagination, to see games boiled down to pure math and number crunching just sucks. I'd rather the game just puts out a post fight analysis like pvp does with other people only being privy to who did most damage/heals etc so skilled players get their pat on the back yet mortal scrubs can play on in peace.
the voice of reason! thanks :D
so true. but then again, looking at bigger numbers is much more fun... even if i die to a oneshot mechanic i could have evaded. but i had few more dps spells to push in
I never used arc dps and I refuse to use any dps meter in the future. Handling mechanics is what makes cm so much more fun to me ^^
The problem is, doing 7k dps vs 27k dps can look functionally the same. You may be hitting all sorts of abilities, when the stronger choice would be to simply auto attack. You may be trying a new build and not know that the combo of two abilities is central to the build
Actually the most important info I got from dps meters is when I was with the wrong build/gear and needed to switch out. But I agree using any kind of meter while in combat is only to boost ego you can get the same info opening it at the end of the fight
That guardian build looks fun!
8:30 warcraft logs actually has this functionality somewhat, it shows a top-down recording of everyone in the raid. And you can also see who got hit with which mechanics and when etc. When I go through a log I don't just watch the dps, although that's a big part of it too. I've actually noticed a dps increase switching from a cluttered hud to a more simple one that doesn't obscure the actual scene.
I guess the only thing I disagree with is that there's something wrong with getting an ego boost from seeing your dps, but of course, if it's at the cost of wiping then it's all in vain.
theres nothing wrong with getting an ego boost, but as you say its kind of selfish if you wipe the group to negligence
gw2 actually has logs for that too. I guess he doesn’t know
Reminds me of that time when I lead DE and there was this one guy constantly complaing he wasen't getting alac and saying he was still doing the most DPS. Only that there simply weren't enough alacs...
From the start of the video... I do nothing of it lol, I play for fun and even take months to finish some games as I enjoy them, I only like to use whatever I like myself regardless about being optimal or not... but I try at least to make sense with it. In the GW2 environment I always evaded a lot the ArcDPS but needed it to at least have some clue about specific stuff I was trying... and then I realized it would be better without it after the tests and the improvement since it was frustrating me to be told each single time how "bad" I was performing playing the way I like.
I think this video skipped over a few key nuances that speak in favour of dps meters.
1. There can be two players within the same role that are bringing comparable utility and reliability in terms of handling mechanics to the group while doing very different amounts of damage.
2. Unless you assume that all mechanics will be handled correctly, any additional dps that can be provided without leading to failure elsewhere WILL be beneficial to the group's success rate.
3. The average player may not be able to use the meter's information to fix a gameplay problem, but still use it to find out that there is a problem in the first place.
4. There can be problems related to your dps that exist specifically outside of the golem testing area, and thusly will not become obvious without the use of a meter.
I of course agree that ego tripping on the dps meter causes more harm than good, but there's a lot of merit to it beyond that.
i can respect that, but what kind of conclusions are we making from seeing that one class does more damage than another even when providing the same support/doing the same mechanics? Is it that we should only play the most optimal meta classes and never try out new stuff? That's how the new metas are created
I just had an epiphany. I have the kind of same mindset as you. I love improving, pushing myself, understand what to do, what to avoid and try to fix, be optimal, but I end up focusing on arc...i want to have fun not be frustrated because I'm 3rd dps, and I'm less focused on the mechanics
Good Take!
I am new i use ARC to see if im improving in dps and to learn, i never mention the DPS of myself or others. Strictly to push myself to do better.
Did you get more boon duration tho? 6:56
Yeah, I do agree with your point. I used to play WoW with addons and DPS meter and it sucked the joy out of playing the game. When I moved to GW2 and FF14 I found out the DPS meter were used way less but particularly in GW2 I have seen the past few years people focusing more and more on DPS. I mostly run a tougness/healing/boon build so my dps is pretty much low but healing at its highest. I do have, unfortunately encountered some instances were players were accusing me of low dps, even though I told them my build isnt focus on that. The amount of rez, healing, boon duriation I have done, not important. ngl, it just make me wanna play this game less and less, which is a shame cuz i do love the story and open world of gw2.
I totally agree, I've been having way more fun after I didn't update arcdps and just played for fun
My take= i enjoyed the theory u opened up, to the address Player attitude towards developing skill whilst enjoying the game. Some of this does not apply to every gamer, and we should head this fact, before choosing to get upset. If we Truly Understand what you are getting at, we probably understand how to utilize dps meters, and this may not fully apply to every aspect of gamer.
I personally utilize dps meters for WvW guild comp. It allows me to address (SOME) issues that can go over the commanders head. Fine tuning is great, but I do find myself too heavily involved in numbers and math, than actual combat. Now my guild ends up theory crafting for the remainder of my time, and we most likely could have settled this travesty on our own. Would take longer, but we would learn other things, and develop other skills, like positioning. Ohhh wait, u covered that! What a good video. 🎉
OMG, thank you, it's finally nice to see someone who actually agrees with how I feel about these "dps meters". To help put blame on the "low dps" excuse, learn mechanics. Low dps is better than no dps. Let's face it, in reality of the game, 20k is all that's truly needed to complete anything within GW2. I run arcdps constantly but, I do so for my benefit, not others nor do I shame others if they're lower than I am. It's a tool, nothing more and to be honest, it's not really being used correctly in game. I also don't like the fact that many can use it to see what your "KP" is, another thing that should be absolutely removed from the gw2 period.
I follow a lot of your guides and builds. People need to understand that it's about knowing, understanding your class like the back of your hand. You CAN actually figure out what you're doing number wise by actually watch the numbers on your screen but, hey, people are lazy. Cheers :)
people are motivated differently. those who are asking for dps meters perhaps are on a different spectrum than those who enjoys the game genuinely. they are also the same type of people who instantly main swaps when that class gets nerfed and cannot perform as well competitively
Wholeheartedly agree Vallun!
Now this is a topic worthy of some serious discussion.
Yes, demanding people to get dps meters is not cool. Yes, bullying people if they underperform is also not cool. Yes, aping after hardcore players in some pug is not cool either. I play in a relaxed semi-hardcore static so everyone's fine with people not having arcdps, and I can always go watch logs if I want to figure something out, but in a more competitive (or toxic) environment it just won't work like that. This is ours, the community's part of changing the approach a bit and making this whole thing more positive. I've no idea how to change things for good here, but I'll mention the other side of the issue that was not mentioned here.
The game design part. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of their game. You quoted only the second part here, but the first is also very important :) In a role system that clearly divides support players to do healing / boons / mechanics and DPS players to pump damage and ignore everything else, looking at the damage meter is the natural way to measure these players' performance. Adding a failed state (escalating fight's complexity, adding DPS checks etc.) will only make things worse.
It's one of the cursed problems in multiplayer games design, along with the whole thing about kill proof and gatekeeping. There's no clear solution to the design part and no clear solution to the community response either. But at least I hope we can keep the conversation going and the devs can pay attention and maybe come up with some ideas to try.
Well said Brother
I love this video.
I came back to GW2 after not playing for ages. I quit before HoT came out. The game I came back to, doesn't feel like GW2 much anymore. People are in a hurry, everybody speaks in code language that I don't understand and when I ask what I could do to get back into the game, I get referred to a site with all the meta builds.
The concept of just having a good time while enjoying my class - elementalist which I think is insanely cool and fun - seems alien to people. I play celestial because I like being good at everything, yet I get told it's not the right setup to play my class right. Every video I look up to learn, has gear I am not even close to having and has damage numbers the likes of which seem absurdly high to me.
I don't have a single addon, I read the hearts quest text to get immersed into the world. But it looks like the game isn't for people like me anymore. I almost lose the will to keep playing because I'm afraid that if I dip my toes into the endgame, I'll just not be able to compete at all. It's a sad time for anyone who loves the RPG in MMORPG. :(
I think there are plenty of people who still like the game how you do, they're just silently minding their own business to avoid getting involved with the toxicity involved in people wanting you to play how they want you to. Don't be discouraged.
You need both dps meter and recording software for self improvement.
DPS meter - To know if your build is good
OBS/Shadowplay - To see what mechanics you did wrong
People shouldn't scapegoat dps meter just because of those nerds being addicted to numbers.
The ego boost gives me a dps boost.
I don't know if this was inspired by Dan Olson's most recent video, but if anyone is interested, it's extremely relevant to the discussion:
ua-cam.com/video/BKP1I7IocYU/v-deo.html
i have seen that video, i think it went a little too in depth lol, but i've been scripting for this video for a while now
@@Vallun oh yeah, It's a much longer experience, your video is much more focused. Still, I think it's interesting that multiple videos are coming out on the topic, it's nice to see a discussion forming
I will say that a dps meter is THE reason I got better at the game. Being able to objectively see how I'm doing on every encounter, even in the open world, made me a better player.
Until I got arc, I had no fucking clue if I was doing well or not in any fight.
late to comment, but I use arc personally for logs afterwards to see my boon uptime since I'm usually a support. Also I use it in training and see who's doing what. I never publicly shame and you never should, but If I have a "dps" doing 5k I'd rather talk nicely to them afterwards so they can learn , rather then let them go and the next commander kick them and call them out for it. I understand not needing to hit benchmark as a normal player, but a dps shouldn't be competing with ninth spot against a ham either.
DPS meter is a toxic gun ready to fire in the high end instance,, i was suprised how kind and good this game community is,, in the open word, low rank pvp, wvw, and fractals... and those are in the low tier.. (other type of game, lower tier instance = more hell).. but when i started to reach high tier and in the pugs especially, people start to ranting out here and there.. just a days ago some 1 guy trashtalking and whispered all the teammates and talking about who is doing really bad dps,, luckily, im using arcdps aswell.. and he start ranting how he always do the most DPS, and others dont.. then i asked him, what the second and third position class ? he said DPS.. then i said good,, all DPS still do their job BUT maybe not as high as you are.. what matter is we re doing 4 stages of t4 fractals and some of them are CM.. and we finished everything.. that what matters, i asked him, if he is so pro and not used how people doing lower damage, what are you doing in PUGS ? why not join any static group or something ?
when i not use arcdps, i just feel okay with everything,, as long as the instance is finished, we re doing our best to do that, all the mechanics were done properly, then im good,, but when i start using arcDPS, even after finsihing instance, im still not feel safe tho,, especially when there are others who has first or second position in the arcDPS than me..
sometimes knowledge is curse, i rather dont know how big my number are and others,, as long we get the job done rather than being insecure because other do better..
well, finally i reach the toxic level state of GW2..
yea i think thats how a lot of people feel
yes and i love when it says chill run ppl forget in pug grps some havent done them over and over and need time to learn and not willing to teach them either sadly.
Never used a dps meter and I never will. Because I'm a highly competitive person, I know that it will suck the fun out of any game for me.
Having friends is far better than a DPS meter.
My friends don't care how I play or how optimal (or not) my damage is as long as 1.) We kill the thing 2.) We're having fun 3.) We communicate with each other 4.) They can teach me what I need to work on without being jerks or elitists.
GW2 isn't like fighting in irl war. It's not that serious.
Sure, you "could" execute your skills perfectly and deal the highest amount of damage output "possible" from your class, BUT if players are so overly concerned about efficiency that it ruins the fun and feels more like a life or death situation or an IRL paid job, INSTEAD OF A GAME, then I don't think things like DPS meters are worth it.
I'd rather just play with friends that don't care about that stuff.
Fortunately, there's less elitists in GW2 compared to FFXIV, but there's enough of them around to keep me distant from doing any hardcore group content with rando players, because you never know if you'll run into "those ppl" who expect perfection from you. lol
Nice!
Dude, I agree with every word you said. Especially when you question "What happened to just enjoying your time and having fun?" It took me only 30s to like this vídeo.
I'm a newbie to GW2 (just over a year and a half), and in my quest to improve my characters at the lowest cost I found your 'One Build To Rule Them All' videos - for which I am very grateful to you. they help me a lot and sometimes i have to watch them again and again to check something - and during that period, mostly exploring the open world and its expansions, I sometimes came across situations similar to those presented in the video when it is about instanced game. Like fractals and strikes. (Raids were an exception in my case because I was lucky enough to find some very patient people in a small clan, and for a while we were practicing, though not anymore at the moment.)
In general, failed attempts end up resulting in the comment about dps or lack thereof. But I am already convinced by your videos that this argument is far from being unanimous or sometimes even true. Which is why I never installed dps meter nor do I intend to.
Congratulations on the work done in favor of other people, especially beginners, of something you like and have already demonstrated that you understand what you are talking about.
I just want people to realize that you're not always going to have a perfect group unless you're in a guild and you're doing your "gur-ilds" night out. You can run a DPS meter all you want to, but if you're not going to use the information that you're looking at to help people learn but instead to just shame them then don't be surprised if that person does even less DPS, condition clears, alacrity, heal, etc. That you weren't paying attention to because I'm going to let you know right now if I'm in your group. Keep on. I will find a way to do even less. Talk to people like trash and trash is what you'll get. Teach people and help them out and you might get the outcome you're looking for.
Thanks for making a constructive effort in trying to be critical and helpful at the same time. I get the feeling the "average player" you are talking about though is not so average at all though. I can't look into your head, but from what I gather you have had bad experiences with "toxic" or "lazy" people. But if I look at why I sometimes don't improve it's for entire different reasons. Lack of time is one. But personality traits or generally put "context" is another. These are usually hidden mechanics that work in our disadvantage. For example, one gets frustrated and inpatient when reading text. Or when trying out builds on the dummy. Whether that is ADD trait, a dopamine habit culture, etc. doesn't matter. The point is your mindset assumes clearly a very different starting perspective: remaining calm and focused. Which isn't true for a lot of people whether they know it or even why. Tip for the self-proclaimed ADHD people: build a routine of having enough sleep and eating healthy goes way further then meds.
The point of all this is that there can be "valid" reasons for not putting in the effort ; as in that they don't mean "they don't actually care about improving" as you said at the end. And those are usually not teens that need ego-boosts. They are in a hormone phase anyway. But rather people that you do reach with your vids and do care but might need inspiration, from people like you.
So thx for that, I guess I perceived your vid as underlying frustration which you transformed into a way to be constructive about it. Great if that's true. Have a nice day! :)
Agreed.
1 week in a row im bullied because of my low DPS, the thing is everytime i try golem, it reach 32-31 K at the least, but as soon i do on fractals, and cm's it falls down...i m just gonna get thru it until i get my mote of darkness..after that, im just gonna do pve stuff adventuring lol...
maybe you should practice bursts instead of golem rotations
@@Vallun ty for replying...can you elaborate more? what is bursts means (i just play this february , sorry for asking newb question)
in fractals mobs die too fast for you to use all your skills, so use only your very highest ones and prepare any buffs while running instead of once you get there@@andreasoloansihotang8228
so like in my blade sworn, only do dragon trigger and run?
@@Vallun
I'm so ahead of the curve, that I never had one installed.
It encourages shitty behaviour passively. You don't need to be an arsehole to be one in the moment when things go awry and you feel your time is wasted, or that you are pulling the weight that nobody else is doing so in what you can perceive through a metre. It happens in every single game. I play from Australia and have learned to focus on the fundamentals per encounter, rather than paying attention to numbers on a DPS metre in benchmarks like the golem in GW2 or any form of training room because I am always going to be a "bad" player compared to anyone who can grab a guide, drill a rotation and smash that DPS benchmark. I hardly ever meet the expected DPS due to my ping in most games I have played and would never meet a hardcore group's expectations and even a pug group's needs if they saw my benchmarks, but because I have focused on learning the fundamentals of each fight, and how I can optimize in my own way based on my limitations, I often do far better than I should compared to if I were to blindly follow guides and just look at the benchmark DPS. When I do look at metres, if it's implemented natively within a game, it's at the END of the fight, not during the fight.
You could make as many rational arguments as to how this improves the overall experience of players within a game's community, but that's not what reality tells us. In every single game where DPS meters are a norm and a standard to measure a player's capability, it creates a meta where people want far, far more DPS than is actually required because they don't want to experience a boss' mechanics. And all the while, you end up ignoring intangibles that may not be your business or your problem like a person's disability, their limitations whether it be due to ping or FPS should they have hardware that isn't optimized for the game they are playing, or have responsibilities that may cause distractions. DPS metres passively promotes a level of dehumanization, because you just look at the numbers.
The solution is already in the video, but truly. Very few DPS metre advocates practice it. If you care about your improvement to the point of being adamant in its implementation in games, go join hardcore groups. If you fuck up and are too shit for it, pack your bags and improve. I improve for myself and to challenge US players because I enjoy being better than what is expected of me, but I despise DPS metres, because it creates the same type of player who follows cookie-cutter builds in competitive games despite being entirely mediocre and spending more time deriding others than playing the game. Don't ever project your way of playstyle to others when you're failing a boss fight unless you can see that mechanics aren't being done, thus resulting in wipes and overall DPS loss. I see far too many get frustrated so quickly at effectively NOTHING, because nobody else within that group shares their motivation to improve even if the content is cleared rather easily.
Look at Final Fantasy 14, Square Enix banned DPS charts because it pushes away newer/returning players to get into a premade group for a raid when some greedy player wants a full run to go smoothly. I'm happy they did ban it.
With Gw2, I prefer to be the supporter. Either healing or boon buffing. I am TERRIBLE with dps combos. And with the amount of players who have legendaries and can pull between 32k-40k DPS, I want them to do that. I tested myself out on a soulbeast full zerk full ascended, I am somehow doing 24k. I could be doing something wrong but i am currently making Harrier gear to be a Druid.. Or Harrier gear for my Banner Warrior. Me being a DPS is a pain because I am physically slow. My reaction time is bad and i'll end up failing a lot of stuff. SO with DPS meter in Gw2, i dont need it if im just existing to boon support/heals.
DPS meters in WvW is mandatory. How will we know who is the top dog? Dopamine Andy's need to thrive.
You spent a lot of time of this video emphasizing that the one number given on the primary arcdps chart doesn't tell the whole story, which is of course true. But arc's capabilities are far more than just "how much damage am I doing" :
I wish you had addressed the existence of boon table (how much support is the squad actually being given), mechanics logs (aka seeing who's failing those mechanics), the healing addon if enough people had it installed (which should be default w/ arc imo), cc bars, boss vs cleave damage, the list goes on.
Of course, most of those are too much to keep track of in the middle of a fight, I usually just have 1 dps chart (which splits boss & cleave dps) & maybe a breakbar chart if the fight is particularly cc-heavy (like sammy). If i feel boons seem like they're lacking, maybe I'll turn on boon table. Am I one of those players in some high end static trying solo/half heal & doing speedclear strats? sure, but I wasn't that way a year ago, & learning how (& when) to utilize all the tools at our disposal is essential to building yourself up.
i do mention that this information is available, but next to no one accesses that information. The people who do are probably using the meter correctly, those who just tunnel vision on dps... are tunnel visioning on only that functionality
Outside of recording literal hours of footage and then going back and rewatching those hours of footage, DPS meters are the single best tool for self improvement in any mmo. DPS Meters aren't really even DPS Meters these days. They are Combat Meters that (generally) show:
Damage dealt and taken, buffs gained and provided, heals gained and provided, mitigation gained and provided, and often times a lot more than that. I don't actually know much about the DPS meter for GW2 since I am fairly new to this game, but in games like WoW and FFXIV the DPS meter and associated tools give you so much information that you can really pin point exactly where improvements can be made, often times better than a recording.
Its easy to assume that the tool is much better when you are good at using the tool, but the time spent learning how to use it isnt being considered, and often the players are going to be even worse at understanding a meter if they can't play their class. So for the average player yes it isn't the best place to start. That doesnt mean no one should use it as per my argument
@@Vallun "Its easy to assume that the tool is much better when you are good at using the tool". Just because someone is less knowledgeable about how to use a tool doesn't inherently make the tool 'bad'. All it means are that the resources available to teach people how to use that particular tool are likely lacking. I don't think the proper message should be "stop using this tool" but rather "here is how you could be using it". The main reason that most people look at a DPS meter as nothing more than a damage metric is because (generally speaking) the dps portion of the dps meter is setup by default and is forward facing at all times unless you go out of your way to turn off that setting. Meanwhile all of the other information on a dps meter are generally things that you have to tinker with to turn on and/or take some knowledge to learn how to read correctly and learn from.
To parrot you a little bit. Its easy to assume a tool is bad when you are not teaching people how to use the tool efficiently, but the time effort spent teaching people how to use that tool isn't being taken. Often players simply don't have the understanding of how much that can improve playing their class because they don't know how to use the tool properly.
@@kilikx1x while i agree with you and some of those problems could be resolved, thats an ideal, and most people aren't going to care to learn how to use it properly, they will just install it because thats easy to do, then play an easy build because thats easy to do, and then when problems arise they will just resort to an arbitrary number because thats also easy to do. In that scenario which I find is very common, it's just better that they never had the tool. In situations where they care to learn then you never have the issue in the first place because they arent blaming the wrong thing, they are thinking critically.
I would LOVE to not worry about DPS, but sadly most modern MMOs are scaled so high you have to maximize your DPS or you simply won't be allowed to play the majority of end game content.
Personally, I don't like it. I wish the end game could be more chill. But alas.
i think you're misunderstanding. DPS is important. A DPS meter is not. You can be chill and play a viable DPS role without getting anxiety so long as you practice, know the mechanics, and focus on playing with your team.
Raids require very low group dps. The tightest dps check only needs around 70k group dps. Ppl really overrate the importance of dps in gw2
FINALLY1 Someone who knows why I don't like elite groups. Busting ev erything down to number crunches just is NOT what I signed up for. I have a full time stressful job, and this kind of gameplay is not fun. I don't enjoy it. I may as well just work and sleep. Thank you soooo much for this video..
I play scepter tempest with a mix of gear. It is not meta. It is not 'great'. But it provides the most fun for me.
Also, I have to choose between reshade&working tp OR reshade&arcdps OR arcdps&tp. Since I like to tune the looks and enjoy using the tp, I gladly not use arcdps. In fact, even before the CEF drop, I did not use arcdps most of the time. Because deep down I do not care.
I need DPS meter for my own fun.
But the video was about average played. Fun video, I liked it.
To me seeing my dps is important at that moment. Not next day not hour later but only at that moment and right after the kill.
There is the joke Greeding dps, which means you don't do mechanics to deal more dmg. Like no revives, no trash clear and leaving death zones on las possible second to upkeep higher dps. Already got someone killed because we Green dps and we basically downed each other. As catalyst my 2 allowed mento live 😆 on that moment you always check your dps and their dps.
I take new dps builds to Strikes and Raids blind and just have fun or join Dhuum Training to fill a role for Fun. Why would I join boring speedrun group who makes no mistakes? I rather have funand enjoy GW2. To me trying to top dps in PUG is fun.
thank you for admitting it atleast
@@Vallun I take great pride being able to do almsot all mechanics in Raids and Strikes and to fill any role. I have played 25 different GW2 classes out of 27 and am able to play any role 😄 rare for me to have an opportunity to greed dps but when I have my god I suck 😆 self downstates 5 times, 3 off the platform i yeeted myself and downstated 3 people one who died because of me when I was playing Catalyst in Harvest Tempel. But I was top dps 😅 no, we didn't kill it. We had problems with several people failing the jump jump jump phase. I could have played Firebrand with Stand your ground to make it easier but greeded the dps instead. Perhaps shield mace secondary set for aegis between here and there. Would have helped a lot for those who could not jump jump jump.
"Your actions matter, not some vague number loosely representing those actions"
Everything wrong with GDP and statistics based politics/science neatly summarized in a gaming video.
Beautiful.
You know players only care about their "dps" when they one side the sphere at the end of Harvest Temple and cause a team wipe.
Idk how GW2 PvE is but if you fail mechanics in other games, it results in less DPS, obviously. Also, a proper coded DPS meter lets you know all the important information, you don't have to ask you all the "if"s
The only scenarios where you don't need a DPS meter is if the game is sooooo poorly designed, that you can't have a proper DPS meter checking all the useful information.
Agree. I've never installed ArcDps and don't think I ever will. However, I've tested buillds with the golem, with the in game dps meter so many times. I can't get 100% bench but I get 80-90% almost all the time so I know what I'm bringing to the group. There are so many different variables that need to be factored in for all the encounters so the numbers on Arcdps don't mean much to me. Power dps bursts, slow condi build ups, boss phases, mechanics, there are just so many things to take into account.
Same with pvp really. The fact that when I was playing as dps vindi and didnt get highest damagein team, doesnt mean I wasnt impactful. I provide boons, offheal, chill and vuln foes and that isnt shown in the accolades after sPvP match, but can carry games and fights. And on the contrary, if I played gunzerker and did 40% of team damage, I still couldnt carry despite super good KDA and the aforementioned damage split.
PvP is a completely different animal in this mode DMG is secondary map and skill awareness rein supreme
I think boon table is more important than DPS meter, especially if youre playing a support.