SaltEMike Reacts to Star Citizen Live Q&A: Making Missions II-2

[@NSXtacy-]

I gotta say I used to be a SaltEMike hater years ago, but have 100% switched sides and love this channel now. I can totally see how he wants what is best for the game and calls out the dev's on it. And I love that there are multiple dev's in the chat answering questions and clarifying things as best they can. It makes for great information filled videos.

[@BB-848-VAC]

Sooner or later everyone sees past CIGs bs

[@yashik]

ye he is great in communication and is able to formulate question / give feedback in a way where developers ego isn't attacked and their feelings aren't hurt that's something I can't do... i just smack my fist on table and say what is this mastermode BS by artificialy placing ship into stupid bubble to limit my speed and goes again logic and even factualy i'm correct and such a move is BS people would say i'm a hater even when my characterization is 100% spot on I just don't know how to say it in a nice way since I expect something normal but instead i have to deal with such a stupidity it always triggers me too much

[@rixxy9204]

There's a lot of hate. SaltEMike isn't one of them.
Opinionated maybe, but not hate.

[@underpressure4785]

They're dropping saltemike references like it's becoming a meme inside star citizen

[@rolinthor]

@@underpressure4785 He’s considered the loyal opposition. A critic, but a palatable one for CIG.

[@Brakerofwind]

Cig is a meme

[@BB-848-VAC]

​@@rolinthorbs. They'd silence him if they could but it'd make them look bad. Remember that they called post ON THEIR OWN FORUMS "noise"

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@BB-848-VAC There is a lot of noise on their own forums, which is why I don't usually visit there. The amount of salt and complaining there is unbearable even for me and I don't even work there.

[@Mindbulletz]

@@BB-848-VAC Their own forums are in fact the noisiest forum about the game. So many people are completely delusional. These sorts of streams are valuable for CIG because they're more genuine even if no single content creator has a perfect bead on the community sentiment and player experience.

[@Vexman2200]

@SaltEMike to your question, smaller ships have smaller radar signatures, faster and lower cost risk for cargo runs into hostile areas. Illicit cargo will be good for smaller ships for example

[@Billy-bc8pk]

This. Plus, wasting fuel on a C2 to deliver 10 SCU would seem silly.

[@minecraftprovie5076]

@@Billy-bc8pk but why would you do a 10 SCU delivery currently if you have an C2?

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@minecraftprovie5076 Because maybe you don't have time or feel like doing a big cargo run? Plus, with engineering coming in the patch after 3.24., running big ships will be a serious expense. So you will have to judge whether certain missions and activities will be worth the expense.

[@janschmid281]

And big ships will not be able to fly in atmo, so hull-E isnt always the best cargo hauler

[@zaydizzle]

Im just wondering when we'll get an SCL with the marketing team. No other team has as much impact on the game as the marketing team, hell they even decide what features a ship will get.

[@Ogata123]

Take it to the place of marketable, and reel it back into playable

[@theinternetknows]

Yes I’d love to put faces to the names of the best team in the company!

[@Eagle6Airsoft]

Marketing team can be felt by watching any isc, they don’t need a specific one.

[@mayoluck]

​@@theinternetknowsCR wife is who your looking for, Sandy is VP.

[@rolinthor]

1:25:13 How can they say they don’t want or intend more wipes when they don’t even know what the full crafting-basebuilding, mining, trading economy is going to look like? Makes no sense.
1:35:49 These Q&As always give the impression that they’re just now getting together to spitball and brainstorm core game features. Sounds like there’s no plan in place.

[@georgek2574]

It seemed self explanatory… wipes will happen, but they are doing everything they can to not have anymore 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@rolinthor]

@@georgek2574 I mean, I get it. But I never believed they were wiping just for shits and giggles. It’s necessary for balancing, to understand how players are playing the game-which can be hard to do from the economic perspective when lots of players have bajillions of aUEC. But they haven’t even *begun* to introduce a proper economy, so there will be many, many wipes required to get the economy properly balanced. So why act like that won’t be the case?

[@georgek2574]

@@rolinthor maybe they plan to focus more of the balance internally while taking in feedback? idk good question but so long as they dont wipe just because and its for a good reason im cool with that

[@rolinthor]

@@georgek2574 Maybe this is their way of saying something they can’t say, which is: “we won’t do wipes to encourage you to buy bigger ships with RL$.”

[@Haegemon]

@@rolinthor I bet for a 1.0 full wipe.

[@Rukaribe]

I think the best thing they could do to address the fact ships are sold on the store and feeling rewarded from playing a lot is for the serial numbers that get assigned to them start with a specific prefix if they are purchased on the store. That way, for people who earned the ship in game, it's possible to tell by other players but in a subtle way.

[@Mace1000S]

So, as far as the size of cargo ships smaller cargo ships should be more efficient on fuel and cost much less to repair. That is a real life physics issue. If you think about Amazon, they have cargo container freighters, Containers go on trains, containers get moved in semi trucks, down to vans and they want to be able to deliver individual packages with drones. Each one has its own job and is more efficient than the other in doing that job.
I think this is what Mike wants to see.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

I mean, it's a self-solving problem once engineering and resource management goes live and especially maelstrom. Larger ships will require massive logistics to operate -- anyone wanting to do some basic hauling or small deliveries will not want to bring out the big boi C2 for like six or seven SCU of cargo hauling. It's no different than right now, using an Eclipse to do an MRT -- the cost of maintaining the Eclipse costs more than doing the MRT, so it just makes sense to use something that is profitable.

[@Mullins23]

Larger ships are MUCH more efficient...
Container ships are so cheap when you compare $/lb and delivery gets MORE expensive the closer to the customer gets aka the smaller the vehicle the MORE you pay per lb.
Large ships will make more money per run but do so at cheaper prices, if you can't fill a larger ship you don't really want to waste the fuel/time/maintenance.

[@aimesblack]

Ok so what we found out is yes you can just buy your way to the top and doing the regular grind is gona be horrible so basicly just buy ships or suffer

[@yashik]

I'm in 1h still 50min left but did they already answered 12 years old question how long in ideal state will it take for player to grind up for a ship that approximately costs $100 because if not it's still the same, they have no clue no idea so saying you will be able to get it in game is meaningless since they don't know anything

[@mostlyharmless7834]

When they talked about payouts a auec seller commercial played.

[@thomasmitchell4155]

This is an idea I have had related to the hauling missions. When you accept a mission with a specific threshold, it will have an optional escort toggle that the player can enable and will generate an escort mission. This mission can be customised with feature present in beacon like minimum repetition prior to posting and will start out at a mandatory zero rep open contract to provide an entry point but will become more restrictive as you the hauler increase your rep (i.e. the higher the rep, the higher the minimum rep you can chose).
In addition to this, to counter the obvious exploit, the mission will have a harsh penalties focused towards taking out the ship you are escorting and will also detect if the escort ship is part of a party that hasn’t all accepted the mission. Moreover, and I don’t know if or how they would do this, the mission will have a 10 minute cool down period which will keep the escort penalties live after someone cancels the contract to prevent people from using it track down players and grief them without repercussions.

[@Mullins23]

It's an MMO but the missions don't pay enough to be worth it if you split the payout.
Most MMOs will give the mission reward to each person in the party not force 1 person to keep track of payouts and then split the single mission reward.

[@vik12D]

Moving space cows? Welcome to Firefly lol

[@BizzMRK]

I'd say the question of how to make smaller cargo ships still viable was misplaced with the mission team since, as they said, from a mission design standpoint there isn't and shouldn't be anything preventing you from chaining multiple smaller missions.
That said, ship running cost will (or atleast should) be higher on larger ships, not only do they consume more fuel, but with the upcoming resource network and engineering changes might also require additional resources to be maintained like for lifesupport for example and even shieldgenerators are supposed to consume hydrogen in the future, which would obviously drive up fuel cost on bigger ships.
This will also introduce the need for having crew for your ship to maintain it and AI certainly wont work for free either. Lastly they have talked about smaller ships fitting through smaller jumppoints enabling them to take more direct routes, which they will hopefully talk about in more detail next week. They mentioned the Zeus MKII being the largest one fitting through small jumppoints semirecently iirc so that still seems to be the plan.
These are some factors the gameplay team could use to push people more towards smaller ships for smaller contracts rather than chaining a dozend of them in a larger one. It would be economically less viable that way and could also not progress your reputation with the hauling guild anymore at a certain point.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

All excellent points, and yeah -- resource management and engineering will make running large ships non-viable for cost effectiveness for lower paying jobs. The cost of repairing a large quantum drive or power plant will be astronomical for chaining together low paying jobs. So it definitely sorts itself out.

[@DustinHarms]

Great reaction and honestly great SCL, just wanted to add a few thoughts:
Trade lanes - IMO, these *already* exist, ESPECIALLY because of external tools that a ton of people use. The only reason you don't see them is because the entire population is split up and this vast solar system is only occupied by a relatively small amount of players. If Server Meshing does turn out to be scalable, I think we'll start to really see these lanes form, simply because more people will be together, thus more likely to run into other players that are doing the same routes. It's entirely reliant upon SM being able to increase the population density, though. If it does work out, that will inevitably create piracy lanes, which will in turn add more security/benefit to doing less popular lanes, and the tug-of-war continues. It's just currently irrelevant because you could sit in the most popular "lane," but not see another player for hours, while dozens or hundreds of players are doing that same route, just on a different server. Also I'm sure they have telemetry on this exact thing, which would be one reason they're so confident and keep bringing it up. Hope that makes sense.
Pretty much what they briefly said, but yeah.

[@chronicenigma696]

Weird that I saw a UEC selling website as an ad on a saltemike opening bump...

[@victorvendetta9409]

lol same

[@chawkes70]

Every time Elliot, anyone says "In the future" you know it is years away and he has no intention of actually doing it lol

[@ironwar8501]

not necessarily

[@mayoluck]

​@@ironwar8501past records prove otherwise

[@ironwar8501]

@@mayoluck I'm a game designer myself and sometimes you design something, and then it wasn't viable, so that's probably what that was. It's not his fault and he has a reason for not doing things

[@grumpypants2066]

​@@ironwar8501bro people were saying the same shit about warframe and now look at it. Still going strong and people love it. It has problems yes but the way i see streamers get so heated ,its weird ngl.

[@KaiCaracofe]

also when they introduce things like live bounty hunting and exploration gameplay the smaller ships will have a lot more utility. I think there will be some new things to do in Pyro that might make them more practical than the larger ships as well.

[@reginadea2821]

Yeah, the problem with MMO rewards is... MMOs with long grinds don't have wipes; most don't even have permanent loss of gear or make keeping that gear a resource sink. And while you could make the excuse that it's still an alpha and the goal is to have no wipes, most grind for gear MMOs reward players in a party separately. Jump into ESO or Guild Wars, and you're going to get the same amount of loot in a raid with two players as you are with four players. This means you are actually incentivised to group up, because it makes the missions easier and you aren't shooting yourself in the foot by getting more friends to join.

[@wun1gee]

My thing is how do you separate small/medium ship hauling from "beginner" hauling?
What if I have no interest in flying a C2 but I want to do high-value hauling missions in a C1, MSR, Max, Taurus or Zeus CL? Is reputation going to unlock riskier hauling missions in a smaller scale?

[@user-co8vc5nd7l]

You finally comments are bang on mate.
For more than a decade we have been flittering around the edges of player interaction, organisation and economy.
We are long overdue for actual game play.

[@cdlord80]

I'm starting to think that every square meter of floorspace in a ship should have a grid on it. If I want to stack 1scu boxes in the hallways, I should be able to do it. And I know I technically can now, but having them NOT bounce around would be great. Unless they give us netting to tie stuff down with (some examples seen in the old cutlass and other places but it was just visuals).

[@michaelcacace1414]

Even if it was theorrtical space net ...an explanation from them could solve the cargo grid idea

[@CallMeTeach2]

I'm not even very far in, but I already have a comment because I think the size of the medium cargo hauling missions makes sense to me. 500 or so is about a caterpillar, the bottom of Large Hauling as of right now. That being said, the Largest Medium mission being about the size of a caterpillar makes sense to me, because the next increment in medium to ACTUAL Large hauling, is the Hull-C. Where should the gap be otherwise? We don't have the Ironclad yet, and the only other cargo option is roughly the same size as a caterpillar, (The C2) plus 200 scu or so. Idk... makes sense to me, but i'm not evo so I haven't experienced it.

[@ianmcintosh418]

No not player driven - hybrid. Player driven is important - but not necessarily dominant? I feel the economy needs to exist outside player influence, it has to be a living economy. Or appear to be. But we are part of it, and you CAN chose to influence the economy from your determined efforts. They always talked about being able to build up areas by economic activity.... Or have it become run-down. I always liked the way the X series had NPCs competing for the same missions/trade routes.

[@IncognitoSabellian]

An to me that kinda idea would be more fun to feel like you live in the universe. "mmo's" don't really try that it is like always hard player driven. (with or with out drop able loot) Npc's are just mission givers/statues. Would be nice to feel like you are a part of the universe. Also I would think that type of thing be better if you do not have enough players in a server.(I would think it would help feel there more people playing then there really is. Even if it was all back end stuff.)

[@edenyan7237]

"A decade and a half is too long, then I had to quit". Jared 2024
Well said, well said.

[@Sattorin]

I've never agreed with Mike more than when he nearly punched his chair over the classic "kill 50 players" Vanduul Mask event getting trashed. The original event got me and a lot of other people to try PvP and learn to enjoy it, and it's exactly the kind of thing the game needs to get people trying that part of the game.

[@saltemikereacts]

I can’t believe one of the devs said it was good considering they never replicated anything like it again

[@ZipinS1]

how to communicate progression... what to do: missions. Why you should (progression): ???
in other MMOs, my motivation was seeing the Gear only equippable with higher levels.. In SC, i dont want to rely on 3rd party websites to tell me which gear I should get

[@Mace1000S]

Squeaky wheel gets the grease, and I guess a little bit of sarcasm

[@dasmoools606]

Regarding rewards.
What if they made grinding Bounty Rep harder? but in return, say at a certain milestone, a certain rank, you get access to an unshareable contract, this contract instead of rewarding you with money. Rewards you with a cert and saaay a unique Anvil Hawk with a unique livery, with its prisoner transport disabled/removed and its emp removed, replaced with a larger powerplant or an extra shield gen and the weapons loadout changes, say the S1's get bumped upto S2's al its an all S2 loadout?
Or maybe your rewarded with a unique component? an FR-66-OT(Overtuned) that ups regen speed but is otherwise the same as an FR-66? like.. they could do quite a lot to give us unique little impactful rewards, especially if its limited to just components or tuned up weapon systems.

[@Saturn-6]

We need random events happening in mission to make it more dynamic like pirates attempting to take your cargo

[@xefiporhouseofzen8383]

Man.. I can't wait to see the full wipe of the game when 1.0 is released.

[@AgentFPS]

Hopium: *I hope one day we see a black market outpost in a dangerous/remote location in Pyro where players can haul over goods/weapons/armors and even their in-game bought ships and post them for sale in the terminal for a given amount of time. It would be the place to go to find rare weapons and cool armor sets if u want to pay the premium price.

[@AgentFPS]

maybe not ships, because those should just be able to be sold back to the dealerships anyways.. like i buy a ship for $10mil, use it for awhile and decide on something else.. I should be able to sell that ship back for atleast 50% of the original price (or adjust for length of time I owned it).

[@matthewperry2136]

at 1:04:00 when there's a snack wrapper rustling I had literally just grabbed a bag of chips to snack on and thought I might have an open mic on in my work chats or something! 😅😂 so I was stunned at first when @SaltEMike said something about "my" snacking

[@bibbler1234]

They should give an award when they wipe that persists.

[@MaybeAnnatar]

It's funny that they apologized for a pre-tape and then delivered one of the better SCL's in awhile.

[@Vexman2200]

It should be easy to just change the counter that reference the SCU number to reference the # of boxes, later they can nuance the box size into that equation. would be far more accurate

[@janschmid281]

I see the hard questions are beeing asked ans seen by the devs, good steps into the right directions

[@evictor99]

Don't forget, 10k to go literally kill 10 enemies

[@Grux_ASG]

Im not sold on this game yet, better luck next year boys

[@larslaufer301]

As for why medium is so big. Maybe the largest of the Hull Series pulls it up so much?
Hope that this will change till release. Else I would only do small missions because I don't have the time to do that large of a mission. Except I have several days to do it.

[@outfit5103]

I would also like to see the reward split change so no 2 people doing the same mission the rewars is split in half
But maybe like okay so we do the mission together we both lose 33% of the reward you get slightly more reward for doing the mission together

[@DustinHarms]

Oh, also, on the topic of games with great economies: Guild Wars 2, after 11 years, has probably one of the most stable MMORPG economies I've ever seen. Some of the stuff I earned at launch are still worth almost the same value as they are now, it's actually insane. One of the most interesting ways they do this is that they don't really give players a lot of raw gold. It's fascinating. You earn a lot of "value" in items, resources, etc. but you have to actively trade with other players in order to turn that into actual currency.
They also have a ton of gold sinks and ways resources can leave the economy.
Ironically, they also have blatant P2W, in the sense that you can literally buy gold with premium currency - which you would think would ruin it all - but, the exchange rate goes both ways and is dynamic. Sometimes the rate is good and it's *kinda* worth buying gold with $$$, but usually it's not. And there are times where it's very worth to buy premium currency with gold, which gives people with more time a way to earn things from the cash shop.
Honestly, as a classic MMO enjoyer and hater of P2W, I have to admit they have an incredibly good system. Can't just port it over 1:1 to SC, but god it's such a great example I hope they find inspiration in it.
As it is, there aren't NEARLY enough value sinks in SC, and even if there are, the main way of earning money is via the imaginary money printer called missions. Unless they make mission payouts dynamic and scale down if there is too much value in the economy (which I doubt they'd do because it feels bad), SC is basically doomed to inflate forever. And conversely, they are doomed to have to constantly inflate the payouts to keep players satisfied.
That cycle literally ruins MMOs, and in spite of hearing good things from the economy team about EVR and such, I haven't heard a single peep about this problem and instead it seems like they are barreling forward toward it, full speed.
This has to change or SC's economy will be garbage pretty quickly after launch, and since they can't wipe after that, it may never be able to be fixed. And a multi-decade project might only last a few years before becoming an inflated mess.

[@hal64738]

Yeah livestock and gases and food, lol. We currently have missions where there is ZERO randomness (the good HRT merc missions in distr centers we have the HRT target appearing in the same spot every f time, for example and the team of NPCs you have to kill before is ALWAYS the same). I think the kid said once that NPCs (defend bunkers against threats?) will come with their own ship and land and enter the bunker lol. Now they come from f. ELEVATORS in bunkers, your bunker has elevators and enemies spawn from them.. How stupid is that ?

[@crazy8chief]

Just one more decade guys...

[@malcolmden3357]

Cargo missions is simply a waste of time!
CIG should make incentives for doing cargo contract runs
Such as the distance travelled to make fuel bonuses, time bonuses such as when arrive early or on time and have penalties if the cargo is late, damaged or stolen.
Working for companies like Covalex should provide all the tools you need including their OWN company ship such a C2 to pick up from the space station or you have the choice to bring your own and have the incentive fuel bonuses + healthy pay out of atleast 100k per run of dilvered cargo.

[@Sarsour_]

Awesome episode!

[@Accuracy158]

Does every team at CIG wait for programmer to run around and implement they things they need... While at the same time nobody is allowed to interrupt the programmers while they work PES, replication layer, server meshing etc? This is definitely how it feels.
It seems like every team has their own set of tools but as soon as they want to do something outside this limited window (example add a cargo size value instead of the game only seeing number of SCU) everything comes to halt.

[@The1RandomFool]

I hope we don't need a $200+ ship to do the lowest tier mission and need an hour to load, haul, and deliver the cargo to get 4k UEC.

[@NovaRexus64]

do you still see any of the bad desync bugs in evo that are in live right now? like randomly blowing up

[@rolinthor]

Either way, Evo performance is frequently not indicative of PU or even open PTU performance.

[@NovaRexus64]

@@rolinthor yeah that and live is frequently worse with heavier server load

[@kinggaresu8232]

I made a drinking game each time they mentioned saltemike. I lost my job, and my wife left me.

[@ScubaSteveTXST]

Eliot could have put a chair punching diagram on the board missed opportunity Kappa

[@SuperJimBobJoe]

I find the response to the C2 stuff weird. He says that you might not be able to fill your C2 in a high traffic area because others have taken up the small and medium contracts but how are they going to stop a bunch of people C2s taking up all those contracts and not leaving any for the people with smaller ships. As far as I can tell there's no countermeasure to that, and it exasperates the whole pay2win situation

[@The_Real_bubbazaneti]

Mike! ThanX for the react! could you do me a favour, when playing in Evo, could U honestly time, how long it takes from when you r in bed, getting your gear on through item banks, getting your ship, getting the cargo, contacting your crew to protect you, going to designated place, onloading, hopefully without trolls, and getting your payout? Just would like to know how many hours it will take for one single mission from when you log in! Thank you in advance!

[@breadbeard6722]

I think what's also a problem is not so much the time it takes to get an 890J, but that there isn't much else to make money for

[@tristan1650]

We desperetly need an lfg (a good one)

[@1aatlas]

How much profit do you guys think truck drivers make per load delivered?
I think people need to come to terms with the pattern that is rewards are gonna come down, 4k seems low now because relative to salvage it is, but salvage is gonna come down at some point too.
Bit by bit the different areas will be adjusted in all likely hood downward.

[@dailato]

1:18:50 The problem is that you can put in literal YEARS of effort and just get screwed out of drops by RNG, with time-gated respawns only a few times a week. This is not something I want to see in SC, I want to see effort proportionally rewarded, not just being an extra pull on the one-armed-bandit.

[@Scubaracer]

Pay to win also includes buying am ironclad 😉 but I get it for content

[@saltemikereacts]

If you have the store credit and can gain an advantage why wouldn’t you? I shows the problem with the GAME people will gain advantages if they are allowed to. That’s the issue.

[@Scubaracer]

@@saltemikereacts Sure and I understand with the early bounties got almost all ships, thus game is no fun/purpose nothing to go for. Plus scrolling when getting your ship.
Would like to see a wipe for ships as uec, sadly they only did the uec last time.

[@MigukChelovek]

Doesn't matter if it's actually live as long as it's uncut. Change the name to Star Citizen Uncut so the abbreviation can be SCU.

[@whowhowhowhowhowho8139]

Hibrid means players will influence and NPCs will influence as well... Tony z is it still working for cig I believe, by the way I do prefer a player driven economy.

[@arctic4291]

ok but...where is squadron 42?

[@DaringDan]

Quanta was just Chris saying, "Hey Tony, we need to drum up money. Can you make a pie in the sky presentation that will get all our middle aged backers turgid, please?"
Tony Z: "I got you homie" and then he proceeded to do the Quanta powerpoint and y'all lost your minds and opened your wallets and it was all BS.

[@johnforrester2574]

Yes

[@pheidian707]

I have hard time understanding people who pay any attention on the payments and balance of money making of the current stage the game is. There's no point in balancing the economy at this point when there's new mission types and playtypes coming (data, pathfinding, exploration, science?) that will break the economy once again, like salvage broke when it "just came" - before that probably mining broke it etc. It does not matter at this stage when we 100% are having wipes on the game when it progresses the development. I hope in the "official release" 890 jump needs solid 2 years of 8 hours a day gameplay to purchase in verse. Otherwise it makes no sense for MMO players.

[@SkintAlot]

'How To Make The Game Not Pay To Win'
Put a reputation progress on Ship Manufacturers to be able to buy or use bigger ships, you can include components and weapons into the mix as well.
You may well own a C2 or a Hull C but you need get your rep up with that ship manufacturer by doing missions for them to unlock that ship to use.

[@saltemikereacts]

Maybe but I think my point stands. If you start to give more unique characteristics to ships (they are VERY similar across the board. They all fit the same things in a size category) then you will start to see some smaller ships have value. Big shouldn’t always be best.

[@yashik]

I hate reputation grind because it's not fun it's artificial time sink where you are repeting task over and over again just to unlock something you need and this is not fun look at warcraft pandaria they locked everything behind reputation faction and limited it to 1 or 2 quests per day so even if you would want to play 2hour you just can't progress because they calculted it so people will have to login and do quests everyday in order to do any meaningfull achievement and that's why i don't like this type of systems ...

[@user-co8vc5nd7l]

@@yashikagreed. I want personal skill and character stat increases.
Stuff like Gforce resistance
Run speed
Strength and endurance
Stuff that actually affects gameplay, hell reset it when you get killed and respawn, make it sting.
I hate a progress bar that literally just time gates activity it’s just boring to me

[@olternaut]

Jared is more like a ringmaster or a sheepherder or company dad at this point.

[@yashik]

he is not getting any younger so another decade is a really really big deal to him hehehe

[@Kallivakgames]

I might be the only one who thinks this but ships should be rep locked at launch

[@orthy853]

15:55 This was a spectacular point that most people who have never played EvE wouldn’t really understand. You can do the missions, learn how the game works, learn what opportunities are available to you, and then when you have some investment capital/assets you can go forth and conquer. No one is going to be able to support all these capitals and massive orgs right off the rip. If we get player driven content. The first few years are going to be everyone figuring out what the politics are.

[@Haegemon]

Everybody forgets the second part "player driven but system mantained", or in other words the player pushes and the system pulls, the player brings chaos and the system brings order.

[@orthy853]

@@Haegemon I concur. I don’t think SC is going to massive regions of space like Null Sec, but I’d like to see Org Wars and a lot of player driven content.

[@Haegemon]

@@orthy853 I only asume that is going to happen at some point. Right now player Orgs aren't even a formal entity inside the game, yet. Devs say "player driven but system mantained", immo those wars will be ignited by the system and players will pick sides.

[@orthy853]

@@Haegemon if the end state is just random events where you can pick PVE or PVP it’ll be a total waste of time.

[@edmundduke1296]

Your question was strange. Outside of game dev, why would you want to use a smaller ship for cargo hauling?

[@Ogata123]

Because you paid real money for it

[@saltemikereacts]

Snuggling, it could be more efficient to move things faster in atmosphere? Stealth and so on

[@BizzMRK]

From a mission design standpoint there isn't and shouldn't be anything preventing you from doing small missions in larger ships. Ship running costs will become relevent at some point though like having to maintain resources the ship consumes outside of just fuel which might also see a bigger cost rebalance and like filling up lifesupport etc, the requirement of having a crew on larger ships in the future heaviely pushing you away from soloing them which drives up crew cost since npcs wont work for free. At a certain point it might stop being viable for you to chain a lot smaller missions in bigger ships, which also present a much larger target for pirates which can nuke your reputation into oblivion if you fail like 8 contracts at the same time because of it.

[@1aatlas]

IT might be the only ship you have

[@essentialasa]

I don't think the communication (ie Lives and InsideSC) are the problem, its that the wider community refuses to engage with them or acknowledge the reality of the game. Nothing is finalized but the community reacts like everytime they touch the game it's in its end state.
The community then gets mad about how long its taking to develop what, in my memory, is the largest physics (slightly loose) based, sim game. Everyone wants their personal pet peeve fixed yesterday and the game fully released tomorrow.
Look at how many times they've said none of the current numbers are final and yet there exists page after page of complaints and rage.
The one thing I think they could do is make a slice of a finished product available to play on Arena Commander. This way people could see what they are trying to reach for a final product and judge the state of the Live by that. Even if it's faked, even if it updates from time to time, it would provide something for comparison. But who wants them to stop working on the game to make it?

[@vorpalrobot]

That arena commander stuff would break the company trying to keep it running during big changes.
Theaters of War would print them money, but they couldn't possibly maintain it.

[@yashik]

@@vorpalrobot Theaters of War was swallowed by sandWorm and this citizencon idea of releasing the game will fly away on a back of a spacewhale

[@yashik]

lol you are really blaming community for being mad and complain about SC we are not the one who were selling it as a Biggest Best Space SIM EVER... now they ruined fly model with artificial nonlogical rules and limitations and are calling it mastermode and and yet somehow we are the bad one meanwhile for more then a decade they fail to answer the question how long gameplay time will be needed in ideal finished game to get a ship that is currently selling on for roughly $100 to have at least a proper idea of the future what they are trying to achieve and no they have not answered it because probably they don't even know it... so if they say you can get the ship in game is meaningless since they can't answer simple question what i've mentioned here before, so yes community is rightfully complaining since this current state isn't a dream they were been heavily promoting

[@essentialasa]

​@@yashik I'm not blaming the community for being upset. I'm saying some of the community is angry about things that were answered in these talks but they won't watch the talks.
They are looking at every thing that comes out as if it's the final state.
That's what I'm saying or at least trying to. I admit to being not the best communicator.

[@yashik]

@@essentialasa It's ok I undertand your point of view and it's true some people are here only to hate on random things no matter what. I'm sorry if I over-reacted but this game has many members who are cult-a-like mentality who will jump on you when you say something critical so I have tendencies sometimes over-react... so sorry If I sounded a little hostile :)

[@aennaenn7468]

Patience costs money, and sometimes has a body count.

[@Accuracy158]

Grind is okay. Grind is good. The focus of the grind can't be the things sold on the store. Literally the only thing these guys can think about is ships... Probably because ships are the only thing in the game right now.
If it takes you more than 2x or so the time in game as takes you in real world to get a ship it doesn't really make sense. Give the grinders other things to work towards and new end game content that is unique and can't be purchased. Ships are also the keys to new gameplay loops in any other game it would be play the story mode first and you have all the basic career starters unlocked. Then you can start the more end game activities.

[@NovaRexus64]

ISC ON JUMPPOINTS LETS GOOOO

[@nosir5596]

Also Mike acting like Jared just didn't "earn" the Alysrzaor drop in WoW-- it's RNG lol, it's a collectable mount but you can beat the boss, complete the challenge, every single week for years and just be too unlucky to get the drop.

[@saltemikereacts]

No mike doesn’t play that game so he didn’t know.

[@nosir5596]

@@saltemikereacts Which is fair lol just sayin, lot of that in wow (and other MMOs).

[@Kallivakgames]

Macky Ds....😂😂😂😂

[@Hytension]

lmao just add a leveling system my god

[@yashik]

I'm also cool with MMO grind style slowly building evolving into bigger ships what i'm not cool with CIG not being able to give simple answer for a simple question for yeaaaars... if carrac cost this amount of $ how long it will take for player to obtain it in game in play hours in desired state when game is final saying it's only alpha and numbers are always changing is stupid excuse because if they don't have any idea how long idealy should it take for player to get xy ship they don't know anyting so saying you will be able to get it in game is absolutely meaningless since they don't know anything... and that's what is pissing me off to the maximum it's not one time, they are avoiding answer for 12years it's driving me crazy

[@emoney7472]

Star citizen should be a grind like no other.

[@michaelcacace1414]

It 1000000% should be otherwise after 2 months everyone has idris and 890 jumps

[@Eggsecuter]

Agreed. If I want to grind for a kraken it should be hundreds of millions to buy. I do agree with Mike that the middle of the pack ships should still be fun and worth using too.

[@michaelcacace1414]

@@Eggsecuter krakens will only be able to be grinded to buy with orgs ...imo the future of sc involves a lot of bills ....fuel will cost alot,insurance will be a thing,possibly health insurance,maybe rent in a city for a place to stay, ship upgrades, etc ....i think eventually it wont be about grinding to make auec to buy new ships, i think itll be grinding to make auec to afford the stuff you have, and you wont be able to buy ships in the shop anymore ...at this time ships will be bought in game only and you will bw able to buy auec to pay for bills and they will make a ton off microtransactions and to buy enough auec to actually buy a ship wpuld cost TONS

[@mayoluck]

​​​@@michaelcacace1414 true but that is not grinding for all that. Thats a cost of operating, the way it should be (mmos dont have cost of operation, sims do). Pure grinding should not exist in this games as you all know it in MMOs and that what CIG wants to stay away from as well.

[@Citizen-Nurseman]

I’d prefer they keep the box choices in the missions inflexible
Constraints make gameplay
They have contracted you to move their stuff, its up to you to bring the correct tools

[@BizzMRK]

sure but at the very least they should tell you what kind of box size you are dealing with because showing up in a Catterpillar for them to throw 32 SCU boxes at you might be problematic, since to this date its cargogrid can't handle 32scu ones.

[@nosir5596]

"Maybe you don't have a C2" is such an insufficient answer. These smaller ships need to have reasons to exist beyond just being stepping stones to the big ships; too much has gone into these things-- and they've been sold for far, far too much money-- to end up with a game that railroads us all into the same half dozen or so big ships. And honestly, "There won't be enough content to go around" is an even worse answer. If primary game loops like hauling have dead time bc people are waiting on missions to spawn, something is wrong tbh. It's already looking like an incredibly dubious prospect to make any kind of a career out of this with how incredibly grindy shit is getting, how low payouts are, etc. And like, to be clear, I've played MMOs for years but MMOs create an actual sense of progression and achievement *relative* to your level. Income at level 1 is low, sure, but it covers the things you need at that level. SC doesn't have a leveling system, you're participating in the same economy regardless, so "level 1" tier income just feels like dogshit lol. In another MMO when I take a quest that pays beans it probably also entails walking like 30 seconds from the quest giver to the quest area. Not 5 minutes of traversal to start.
"EvR" is fine and all but the big issue IMO is that the devs really don't seem to consider the base amount of effort that goes into doing literally anything in this game, bc that's a huge part of why these payouts feel like shit. Everything in this game is more of a slog than it should be; everything takes longer in reality than their simulated estimates account for, everything has friction points with the UI and such that -feel- bad and thus make the content feel like more work even if it's not 'difficult' from a risk/combat standpoint. And CIG seem completely out of touch in that regard, tbh. Jared talks about it, but they don't really account for the played -experience- rather than just 'time spent' as an abstract. Same with the 'grind' discussion. In an MMO you're maybe working towards a big thing, but you get smaller, tangible, ACTUAL rewards along the way regularly. They keep talking about the "get an 890 jump" example but like. The actual answer is that you need things for us to achieve along the way that feel meaningful, not just "work to get big expensive ship then you are done." There still seem to have no plans for ongoing rewards and shit.

[@adrianmartin1394]

Roast incoming

[@vengefuldevil5195]

Finally ripping off the band aid... good.

[@nmd68]

So no insane Eve Online price inflation....good

[@saltemikereacts]

Exactly why I prefer this…many MMOs suffer from this.

[@nmd68]

@@saltemikereacts Used to buy PLEX for my 2nd account at about $1bil. Earlier this year it's almost $3bil. And ship insurances were set by devs I think, so they're pointless now since they payout a mere fraction of what you buy a ship for

[@whowhowhowhowhowho8139]

What the fuck mike why I cannot as a game designer myself, share one with them? Which by the way I have already done a many times and they have thank me for as they are good brainstorm exercise for them? This is in fact a perfectly okay backer activity

[@Ogata123]

“Gotta have fun to make fun” must suck to work there

[@chatt6154]

Don’t fish for compliments saltymike. You are mentioned just because it’s needed and it’s necessary because of your engagement in this game. We need your voice.

[@Brightside187]

I like my Mike Salty

[@rixxy9204]

An MMO... Right. 🙄

[@goodall18]

got no money OR time? Wrong game for you imo

[@vast634]

The game kind of lives off of wipes in the long term. Else, when people gor everything they want, the game gets stale. No more progression, and thus no motivation.

[@James-mb3je]

Maccies breakfast is the worst, they should stop doing it and hash browns are dog egg

[@Muggled1990]

Honestly when the dev team doesn’t even know what it’s called, you know it’s crap

[@woodybear3823]

I am just interested in Squadron at this point. If that game flops, i am done with Star Citizen for good.

[@toxicwoozy2548]

ive lost like 15 mill to hangars blowing me up. any way to fix it or just uninstall?

[@vorpalrobot]

Don't bother running commodities until you can handle the risk. They're gonna wipe for 4.0 probably. I'm not sure why you would do this to yourself lol...

[@toxicwoozy2548]

@@vorpalrobot lol the game being dog water shouldnt be a risk lol

[@Cowcow211]

Uninstall. Come back in 10 years