There is some, but its mostly regurgitated stuff with little to no actual source evidence and fantasy pieces as examples of what the equipment looked like... I too am glad that a channel such as this one is starting this topic, and I hope it spirals down the rabbit hole with other similar channels around :)
Obligatory plug for The Jackmeister's channel on YT. He engages heavily with the original sources and provides a lot of nuanced takes. His content is more on the academic side, but if you're already on Matt Easton's channel you could probably make the jump just fine. Also, Jackmeister has previously contributed a lot to Kings and Generals' Mongol history videos (plus those for some other UA-camrs such as History Dose.)
This is definitely true, as I feel like in general, the only Asian history that seems to interest people is Japanese history. Kinda sad though because then you neglect other countries’ histories like Mongolia and Korea.
In 10th century Hungary where the archaeological documentation is very rich, there was a sabre in every warrior's grave, so we have hundreds of them of the exact type you see on the so-called "Charlemagne sword" in Vienna often with abundant gilded silver decoration of palmettes in the case of higher status ones, which is a type of decoration they already had on their sabres when they were still around the southern Ural mountains. So Hungarians knew quite well about sabres well before the 14th century and it is actually the standard sword that they were using when they made their incursions into Europe. When they were forced into christendom in about 1000 AD, they more and more adapted Western straight swords and ways of fighting. Most scholars believe that the sabre was not entirely abundened however, but was held in a secondary position for light troops and archers because recurved bows weren't abandoned either, although this is still debated as after christendom far fewer weapons were actually deposited into graves, but there seems to have been a certain continuity in the shadow of the new knights of German origin.
Unsurprisingly, as the Hungarian tribes were indeed one (or seven, if you prefer) of the Turkic-influenced groups referred to in the video that arrived from Central Asia at the start of the 10th century
To be able to establish a country in Europe at that time, you had to convert to their religion, otherwise your would be country were not recognized at all and wars or crusade followed. In case of Hungary, the would be king Stephen had to request a crown (=the right to establish a kingdom) from the Pope@@bakters
@@bakters There are sources to support that Christendom was not spread by kisses and hugs in Hungary. Civil wars continued against the king way after Stephen Ist death to return to pagan traditions in the 11th century. Several priests were executed, including the bishop Gellért on the rock you can still see in Budapest above the baths "Gellért" according to tradition. Kings had to compell with the pagans just to keep their power before bringing back the priests and striking at them again.
Xcuse me, I always Iove the content, but must absolutely correct here: the "Charlemagne sword" or "Attila sword" of the Vienna Schatzkammer is a typical Hungarian sabre from the 10th century for which many parallels are known from Hungarian pagan warrior graves, not an Avar sword. Hungarian and Avar are two different people who lived in the same Carpathian basin but at different times. The Avars had first straight very long swords with just one cutting edge. Avar sabres date to the late Avar period (about 670-8th century). Pagan Hungarians theoretically settled down only in 895 and their culture is mainly 10th century. In between these the 9th century is pretty much under documented, but there were a lot of Slave tribes and probably remnants of the Avars. In my opinion the so-called "Charlemagne sword" was a gift or perhaps even a war buty taken by the German emperor Otto Ist who stopped the Hungarians at the battle of Augsburg in 955 and had executed several prominent Hungarian princes who took part in the expedition and probably took their valuable weapons too. It was never under ground so is exceptionally well preserved and an astonishingly beautifull weapon.
The saber was always in use in Hungary. It wasn't just adopted in the 14th century. It is true that around 1000 AD the straight-double edge swords where introduced here but sabers remained but mostly with light cavalary. It never really fell out of useage.
hungary is also turkic thats why ... turkish cav sword is saber its the first curved sword used in history i can argue on metal quality probably iron age europian swords are better made coz of quality of iron but i dont know at the seljuk and ottoman era turkic swords become the finest coz of damascus steel technique there is also a sword called yatagan for infantry its curved to opposite side. and used for chopping limbs shields and against armored opponents.
Arguing that Ottomans took sabers from Mongols is quite a stretch. Seljuk Turks had already occupied Iran, Levant, and Anatolia in the 11th century, about 150 years before the arrival of Genghiz Khan. Anatolia was already populated with Turkic tribes and clans by the time Genghis Khan arrived. Thats why you start seeing sabers in the East Roman arsenal much earlier than Genghis Khan.
I did not mean to imply that the Ottomans took sabres from the Mongols - rather they both had sabers already from Turkic origins and there were design elements that influenced each other.
Indeed, i think the first 'official' relations of the Eastern Romans with the Mongols are the 2 treaties with the Blue Horde (urals, the Blue Horde is the Eastern Part of the Golden Horde) and the Ilkhanate (persia). Essentially the 2 Khaganate Leaders get a princess & recognized as true heirs of Rome. In practice, the Ilkhanate Horde (mainly) & the Romans destroy the Seljuk Turks. More specifically, the Roman princesses enjoy great prestige, especially the princess that goes to the Ilkhanate. Btw Mongols were practicing tolerance against religions. So the christian Princess (Maria Palaiologina) was promised to Hulagu Khan, but he dies before they arrive, and thus is maried to his son, Apaqa Khan does charities etc & gets really really famous. She was extremely influential in Mongol politics, as most Mongol subjects were Nestorian christians. Her Mongol name was Despoina Khatun, ie Lady Khatun) After the death of the Khan (Abaqa Khan, 1234-1282), she returns to Constantinople where she establishes a church. To this day there is a church in Instabul (Maria Mouhliotissa or Saint Mary of the Mongols), this church has not been turned into a mosque due to a treaty with the Ottoman Sultan. Simply fascinating story. Lastly i want to add that the slavic word for Mongols is Mogyla & the Byzantine word for Mongols does take from Mogyla. You can spot this connection into the 'Mouhliotissa' word.
Genghis Khan has a Turkic name Temürchiñ, Temujin is chinese pronunciation. Mongol Empire was 80% Turkic warriors at least. Modern Mongolians are closer to Tibetans and Manchus culturally and linguistically. Turko-Mongol is saying like Turko-Turk. It’s redundant.
@@Qazaq_Qiyat_1465 Its not redundant because the Mongols did have different customs & they do have different language (different language family). The Turko-Mongol tag is reserved for the Mongol people who were Turkicised in the 14th century, especially in the Successor Stares, abandoning Mongol religion (but not Mongol law) & adopting Turkic languages. I have to point out however, that Mongols were very tolerant with other religions & thus were influenced by older religions (Christianity, Nestorian Christianity, Islamism, Confucianism, Taoism etc) even though Genghis was a follower of the Old Mongol ways.
@@Qazaq_Qiyat_1465 I also have to add that Turkic describes many different tribes, with different customs. These Turkic tribes also fought with one another as well. With that distinction the term Mongol-Turkic is more apparent. This is also why the term Seljuk Turk or Ottoman Turk appears, even though Seljuks have more in common with Ottomans, than Mongols.
It’s amazing what video games do to modern historical understanding. I can’t think of anywhere else this could come from besides as a way to balance them in video games. Perhaps misinterpretation of a history book too?
@@Subutai_Khan the argument started because they claimed no "ninja" would fight like a samurai, i said that probably no two samurai fought the same either. the response back was something like "NO all samurai fought like samurai just like all the Greeks used phalanx warfare and the Mongols used horse archery" so therefore i must be wrong in asserting that samurai didnt all fight the same. mostly they just called me names lol IF you want to divide up all human combat into one thing, "human combat", you can; just like you could divide up "Mongol combat" or anything else. i am pretty sure they were arguing just for the sake of arguing to make up for something in real life
Even if they were 100% horse archery they still would have swords and daggers as back up weapons or battle axes maces or war hammers for some units or troops against armored opponents
@@markbennett5812I had a more demeaning version of this directed at me regarding Korean history. I get that archery was the big thing but no army is made of archers without anything else
12:50 One obvious influence, from the Avars in this case, is the Byzantine paramerion. It's essentially one of these with a Byzantine crossguard and ball/nut pommel. Edit: Oh, you mention it at 16:30 lol
Vince Evans reproduced at least two Mongol Sabers that I know of. They we're designed by the Curator/Conservator Philip Tom. Both designs we're based on archeological artifacts found from the 1223 Battle of Khalka in Russia. I believe Scott Rodell tested one of the sabers.
Man, the colour pattern, that slight curve of this sword and way the guard fits the palm is so satisfying to behold, it looks so elegant. Frankly I am very envious you get to hold that beauty.
When people ask, "what is the best kind of sword?", the answer is that they are asking the wrong kind of question. If someone asks, "What is the most practical kind of sword for most people in most kinds of situations?", I think there's a pretty solid argument to be had for swords similar to this in form and function. It seems like a whole lot of people in a whole lot of different places at a whole lot of different times all ended up developing something similar to a saber, and they were almost always highly popular and effective swords. Could be one-handed or two, could be double edged or single edged, could have a complex guard or a simple guard. But it seems like a lot of people would end up landing on a long, narrow, slightly curved, cut-and-thrust blade. And somehow I still haven't gotten one for myself
Good ideas get around. The earlier Seljuk/Mongol bows are similar, as are the later Ottoman/Mongol bows. Put a handguard on a Shaska, or take it off the Turko-Mongol saber, you have similar swords.
It's been a while since I looked into chinese warfare and sources, however as far as I remember the popularity of the Dao predates the Mongols, and it's a very common sword in use in the Tang dynasty and the Song dynasty. It is possible it's popualrity can be attributed to the Turkic Khaganate and it's subsequent defeat by the hands of the Tang dynasty, although I am by no means sure this is the case either. Dao in those periods tend to have straight spines however, unlike latter designs which introduce curves.
Also, keep in mind that the Tang, we’re Turkic in origin. They just adopted Chinese manners and institutions a little more gracefully than the Mongols did.
@@cal2127 Yeah that sounds right, either late Han or Three Kingdoms/Jin period. However I think that by that point the Jian was still more popular, although I could definitely be wrong on that.
@@hiimryan2388Li Yuan, the founder of the Tang and his cousin, Emperor Yang of Sui were descended from sinicized Xianbei nobility (known as the Dugu sisters).
Man this is right up my alley as a self-proclaimed “Khanaboo”. I found it interesting in my own reading how Carpini, an Italian writer also pointed to the importance of the axe to the Mongols. Given how often they are used in Asia and Europe as horseman’s weapons, I suppose it’s not surprising but not a weapon we often associate them with. Not to undermine the sabers importance of course and it is quite possible to carry more than one type of sidearm on the saddle.
@@garywheeley5108 The more well-off Mongol lancers did often carry maces yes (as well as swords.) Remember also the point Matt made about the Mongols having a huge empire too. That means equipment varied quite a bit too :). Maces in general are pretty common Indo-Persian weapons as well which is an area of the world the Mongols ended up in as well. Plus you had vassal troops who could have all sorts of equipment.
@@Subutai_Khan just thinking of the logistics of producing sabres or any swords in quantity on a campaign stretching thousands of miles across Asia getting the steel and fuel for smelting I would have thought anything but swords would have more bang for the effort involved axe spear lance mace even arrows could be made from flint bone etc how plentiful was ore coal charcoal wood etc on the steppes ?🤔
This is a good, concise history of this very successful sword design. I was sufficiently impressed by your review on this saber, and your review of other LK Chen swords, that I purchased one 😎💪
I do like the look of the off white Ash grip, I originally mistook it for some sort of horn material. I generally change my grips to mammoth ivory because I like the look and feel of ivory but don't want to help stimulate a market for modern elephant ivory.
Straight-backed Dao started to become the primary military sword back in the early iron age Han Dynasty, they are almost alongside bimetallic bronze jian. The earliest Turko-Mongol sabers are well after the straight-backed dao was popular in China. After the Yuan Dynasty, Chinese dao start to look like Mongol swords, but the Mongol swords may have been descended from Chinese dao in the first place.
Korean swords followed this with using the Chinese styles of straight backed swords and getting more curved due to Mongols and other groups. Afterwards, they became more influenced by Japanese designs following the Wokou raids and the Imjin war. As far as I recall. Korean swords end up pretty similar in dimension for awhile in terms of degree of curvature and in size. Basically looks like a katana mixed with this sword which is basically what happened. Again, as far as I recall.
I would say that the Han dynasty dao is another sword that could have steppe origins or influence. For quite a chunk of the Han dynasty it was dominated by the Xiongnu. I haven't been able to find any depictions of Xiongnu swords unfortunately, though I have found references to finding swords in Han graves that were either Xiongnu style, or decorated in the Xiongnu style. And I have also seen references suggesting that Han Dynasty and Xiongnu swords were very similar. Unfortunately I can't give more information... there are so many articles that would be very useful if I knew Chinese or Russian...
I would like to add that the straight, ring pommel dao itself derives from earlier (bronze) knives that were popular from Central Asia all the way to East Asia. I have seem examples of ring pommel bronze knives from Central Asia long before ring pommel dao is a thing.
@@gedmerrilin9010pls translate it bcs my English is bad：汉代前期一直是使用的剑，刀的起源是日常生活中使用的青铜短刀的放大加长，而青铜短刀的造型则可以追溯到商代的“刀币”了，所以我不认为环首刀收到了匈奴的影响，不过我认同中文互联网世界有太多的刀剑资料不为人所知了，真是可惜，希望lkchen和matt能为中文世界资料的交流学习努力❤
That is a fascinating subject. I would like to see a introduction video about the Seljuk weapons, specially about their horseman swords and their bows.
Despite how large their empire was, some parts are not so well documented compared to others. Surviving specimens of equipment are uncommon just as in other places of this time period, and written sources while plentiful are difficult to study because they are in multiple languages (since you know, the Mongols interacted with highly diverse civilizations.) But there is a good amount of written description of what kind of things they used, and Persian artwork is particularly valuable to see what they actually looked like. Still not easy for modern armorers/bladesmiths to reconstruct anything and there probably aren't as many people commissioning it anyway.
I truly appreciate the context that you provide about all these different weapons. You knowledge is amazing and you do such a good job of presenting it in an enjoyable fashion. Thank you!
it makes sense if the mongols were using shorter swords -- their horses were shorter/middling sized for the most part. The true power of them came from the cooperation of the arms (especially horse archers) and the military discipline they instilled through all their branches. Feigned attacks were the norm, hit and run, parthian shots, followups and only when the enemy was broken did they pursue. They knew what they were doing, and knew it well. There is of course more to it than a three line paragraph can summarize, but I think this looks correct, and the curvedness makes complete sense from a later point of view as well -- the curve was allegedly for making its use easier for cavalrymen.
What's lesser known is they aren't a hodge podge of multi ethnic ppl. The core monogols warriors are fathers and sons, uncles and nephes, brother in laws. If it was not safe, tell your bgrother in law, fall back BIL, sound judgement saves reckless battles. att he same time, when corneded with half his family deaad at their feet, and the other half is clinging for dear life; this is where you find your 5 men surrounded by 5K pile of enemy soldiers, and don't know if you should cry for their bravery or weep for the stupidity of the enemy. This ame mentallity was then extended to tothe rethnicityes who definitley appreiciated 9it since no other army treated you like equals, not even here in America . So the Mongols are truly a diamond in the annals of history.
I was one of the many who asked you if you could talk about melee weaponry in the Mongol armies many years back in comments! So glad you've gotten around to doing it!
i had a french one like the one handled here as an example and yeah the handle does curve like this sword. it was a french sword made in germany for the french revolution and according to wkc swords - the maker, they made boxes of them without guards or handles or pommels and shipped them bare bladed to france and england
Matt; I recently purchased an excavated example at Auction. Blade is intact though the pommel has separated. I’d be happy to send you dimensions and photos, since you are “gathering information”. I live in Minneapolis, and have been friends with Arms and Armor since they started. Planning on having them make me a reproduction blade, so I can practice with it.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge... I so wish you would talk about the function of those features... every time I think your about to get to the real interesting part about why they have those characteristics and how they used them, you tend to over elaborate other topics.... still though, thank you!
@@scholagladiatoria Will you touch on some Korean swords? I know they are designs of their neighbors incorporated into existing sword types but I would like to hear your thoughts since you provide a non biased view.
@@scholagladiatoria just to be clear, I am grateful you take the time to share your expertise with us and I always enjoy listening to your stuff, hope you have a good day sir!
Brilliant video dude... I remember debating someone in a previous video of yours in the comments... I basically said what you said in this video lol You defo did your research mate... Love the videos ❤
Great video! I am new to the channel. The fact that you are pronouncing Chingiz Khan closer to the correct version tells me that you have done some reading on the subject.
Awesome Matt!. I always like seeing when the Mongle Sabres get some attention. A great example from LK Chen. A few quick notes : During the Avar period the guards would’ve had simple straight crosses, either with small bulbs or long quillons. we do see the beginning of one of the two most popular types of guard for these sabers, which is the star guard. The other type is what is seen on this example, which is called the boat guard. You can find forward, swept quillons during the ninth and 10th centuries on Magyar and Alan swords, as well as in the 14th century on Golden Horde Sabres. Tunkou will likely predate the actual “Sabre” blades, showing up first on Turkic backswords (along with yelmen, and originally being quite ornate. While there are similar Chinese structures the nomad examples will be different by having an extended edge (usually innate cutting side) and often being iron and hammer welded to the blade. These will eventually be introduced to China via groups like the Liao during the Song dynasty.
Good historical analysis. Would have liked some comments about the functional aspects of the sabre, ie why the Mongols did this instead of that. But still good!
@@ArkadiBolschek Gimme a new race for Elder Scrolls 6 inspired by them. Last time we had a new playable race was all the way back with orcs in Morrowind.
@@perrytran9504 In the various time periods the games are set, the only major races knocking about on Tamriel are the ones you can play. You would have to go much further afield to places like Akavir. Atmora would just have more Nords, Yokuda sunk into the ocean in the First Era. Pyandonea has the Maormer on it, but they're just fish elves, and also featured in ESO. If TES6 isn't on Akavir, which it probably won't be, then you're stuck with Imga, maybe Reachmen.
Very informative, could you do another on the specific features and the pros and cons of each of this type of sword? Handling, cutting ability, balance, hardness, all the good stuff. Thanks, Bob L Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, USA
The Romaic Sabre, or Paramerion (it means by the side or by the hip) is essentially a modified version of the Avar sabre. It would be hanged by a belt or a shoulder strap. The Paramerion is essentially a single-edged sword with a slightly curved blade towards the back. You can thrust decently with a Paramerion. The Paramerion is also conflated with the Makhaira, a falchion/falx like sword that is usually longer and heavier. The primary advantage of curved swords are that they are easier to make (less forging, means less flaws in the blade) and easier to fix in the hardening/tempering (deviations can be ignored, this is very important for curvature/straighteness)
When you show the Mongol sabre next to the modern sabre; to me it seems like they have their curvature in different parts of the blade. The Mongol one having its curve notably closer to the hand, and an almost straight section towards the tip - the modern sabre straight at the handle, curved towards the tip. Is that a general trend or just coinsidence? Interesting as always 👍👍👍.
10:04 Matt you told us all about the feature but not what it does, is it to retain in the scabbard or perhaps to keep damp out. Eventually it becomes a stylistic vestige only
This is completely unrelated, but I've always wondered if a fully armored and equipped late medieval knight would be nearly invulnerable to zombie attack. Maybe for a Halloween special or something, could you cover this? Thanks!
Full plate with minimal openings, ie the type of plate armor that can only work with the help of a servant? It would really depend on the kind of the zombie, as there are movies/games when the zombies are quite strong and can destroy wooden doors. In such a case the knight will have concussion & multiple bruised/broken ribs. Other than that the knight has to be careful of zombie hordes/swarms, because the zombies will pin him down. They wont do that much damage, most likely bruises from being pushed by so many bodies, maybe difficulty breathing, and the knight will be heavily pinned by so many bodies. Maybe the face visor opens with all the zombie flailing around, if that happens things will be life-threatening. But the zombies will be restless 24/7 and wont be tired, so its just a matter of time, as they have all the patience of the world (unless its the night of the living dead).
1 Turko-Mongols used a prototype saber. 2. The Hungarians met them and started using this weapon. At the end of the 9th century, the Hungarians brought it to Europe and spread it in the neighboring countries. 3. Later, the Poles spread it further along with others. It has always been used by the Hungarians, but after the 14th century it was almost only used as a cavalry weapon. Around the 16th century, it was no longer only used by the cavalry. And it was put back into use. Around this time, it came into use in several European countries. 4. It also began to spread during the war against the Ottomans. That's it in a nutshell. Of course, the weapon changed from time to time, but not much.
About shashka… in Russian speaking circles of experts it’s widely believed that it came actually from a knife, probably, agrarian vine cutting knife that eventually grown up to a sables size. Yet it’s very different than a sable in its balance and thus technique of use
These things don't get enough credit... Kinda anywhere 🤷🏻♂️ They are a huge part of (military) history and they did influence a lot of other swords. However this is the first video I've seen about it. # Sweet! 👌✌️
One question: you mentioned the black thing on the blade (the "tunku"??) at about the 10:00 point in the video - but you never told us what it actually does, and what purpose it served.
it helps with securing, although very slightly, the blade to the hilt it also helps with fitting on the scabbard, so its held more securely and... it looks nice
Eurasian nomads predominantly used sabres. In Hungary sabres were used from nomadic times up to the medieval times when the predecessor of modern light cavalry was first employed. Later many Western European armies adopted light cavalry as well as sabres, so that you can see the obvious similarity in light cavalry sabres of different ages and countries.
One thing I'd add - when sabers were becoming popular in Hungary in the 14th Century it's actually a return to old traditions ;) Magyars (the cultural group Hungarians descend from) fought mostly as horseback archers, led a nomadic lifestyle and used sabers almost identical to the Avar ones. They only adopted (and very quickly too!) feudal european culture and fighting style after they were beaten back by Otto III, and were so impressed they decided to become like western knights.
Thanks for the video, truly informative and entertaining. I wondered if there's some evidence of a connection between the turko-mongol sabers and the japanese tachi (and later uchigatana)? The habaki on japanese swords seems, to my eyes at least, to resembe the tūnkǒu on the turko-mongol sabers in some regards. There also seems to exist a japanese tachi called 'Kogarasu Maru', believed to have been crafted around the 8'th centry, with a single-edged blade that turns into a double-edged blade towards the tip, somewhat similar to the design of the turko-mongol saber you present here. Just a question that struck me while watching the video. Have a nice day. Best regards, Steffen
Did these steppe swords influence later swords or is it that a curved blade (one of the minuscule options in blade types) is better for unarmored-horse combat and arrived upon by anyone engaged in this form of battle? I think the latter. Like in nature, convergent evolution/ideation is incredibly common in human history.
We could say that except for the fact that theres a ton of evidence of DIRECT heritage from turko-mongol sabers to drastic changes in sword types in the cultures they interacted with. European sabers, Indian and middle eastern sabers and chinese sabers all are pretty heavily linked to mongol influence.
I genuinely thank you for this video there is a massive amount of confusion on this subject,i have seen people calling these curved sabers origin persian, chinese... even arabic, many bogus claims.
I assume that the Turko-mongolic sabre is the descendant of the long double edged blades that developed in Western Siberia and East Asia after the spread of iron production which were themselves were descendants of the last bronze age blades. We see parallel developments of the Chinese Jian, Japanese tachi and Sassanid Persian blades from the same period, all using a similar form. The Turko-mongolic sabre seems like a development of this sword form with enhancements to increase cutting power during the literal slashing attacks used by mounted combatants.
11:00 They arent stronger cutters. However they do help in edge alignment a bit. If they are very curved (the persian styles, but they are later period) then the are slightly better at cutting if you punch cut, but as i mentioned not at drawing cut or direct cut. In general, Curved swords advantage is that they are easier to make/maintain. Thats a very good attribute for nomadic horse tribes.
Thank you for a cursory look at the history of Turko-Mongol sabers. Since the first time I got interested in Turko-Mongol warfare, I was fascinated by the similarities between Turko-Mongol sabers and most of the European military sabers from the 19th century. I think you explanation makes sense: i.e., Turko-Mongol saber is actually a huge geographical and cultural bubble, encompassing just about everybody within East Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. Personally, I think the Ottomans might have helped to "seal" the adoption of the key features of Turko-Mongol sabers in Europe. In particular, unlike the Mongols, Europe was exposed to the Ottomans for much longer and the Ottomans were the ones you would have looked up to for the latest in military-related stuffs and inspirations until the rise of "Ottoman-killers" like Russia. Perhaps Turko-Mongol sabers and their derivatives have consistently maintained their key features throughout many many centuries might attest to their very rich intercontinental history, well-rounded design, and style. (Personally, I think Turko-Mongol sabers and European sabers are pretty handsome.)
One thing I remember reading when I was a teenager, can't say for sure if it's true or not, though it seems convincing, was that the use of sabers like this by Turks (and later Mongols) influenced the production and use of various types of wrist/forearm plate armor (vambraces I guess) by those forces, basically to offer some protection from getting your arm or hand severed in combat. And that is something that is reflected in many armor designs by those groups as well, where, as already mentioned, plate limb defences are fairly common even relatively early on and even when a warrior otherwise might not be very heavily armored (helmet and cuirass and possibly mail shirt most of the time).
Matt's presentation is as excellent as we expect and demand but if you want to learn more about these Mongols and their propensity for crossing unfordable rivers, taking your army by surprise, destroying them in the field and depopulating your country by 70% so there will be enough grazing land to feed their horses so they can get to the next river and do it again then you might want to check out The Jackmeister: Mongol History channel.
Hello Matt, I think the forefather of this sword is the Siunnu/Hunnic straight single edge sword. Also a little correction - The Caucasian Shashka is basically Messer/Knife. Shash/Shish is the root of the word. And Shashlik is a meat on a knifes / Skewers. There is significant difference between Shashka and Tatar saber. And what you hold is more close to Tatar saber. You could check also - Valeri Yotov and the weapons of the Bulgars 7-11 century. Thank you for your video!
What was the purpose of that metal plate at the base of the blade? Was it meant to keep the sword secure in the scabbard and prevent rattling or dulling of the edge?
Three points: 1) Between Avars (6th - beginning of 9th century) and Mongols (Second third of 13th century) you have Hungarians (end of the 9th up to today - they raided e.g. France in the time of Vikings). 2) Ching dynasty were of Manchu origin, i.e. nephews of Mongols. 3) The first battles of the First Crusade were against (mostly) muslim Seljuk Turks wielding (probably) sabres. Straight-blade-wielding Arabs and Syrians came only after (probably Persian-influence sword type, single-edged and more palas-like).
"The first battles of the First Crusade were against (mostly) muslim Seljuk Turks wielding (probably) sabres. Straight-blade-wielding Arabs and Syrians came only after (probably Persian-influence sword type, single-edged and more palas-like)." Matt refers in the video to the forces of Saladin who didn't participate in the First Crusade. Most of the conflict with the Seljuks and the Sultanate of Rûm were in the First Crusade. By the Second and Third the Crusader states held coastal territory in Outremer to receive crusaders directly from ships, and the Byzantines and Latins had reclaimed territory in Anatolia to traverse without having too much trouble with the Turks. If anything, Byzantine paramerions would be likely to be encountered when the Crusaders were sacking Byzantine territory.
The Manchus were not nephews of the Mongols. Manchus are from an entirely separate lineage of peoples, were semi-nomadic and used agriculture (compared to exclusively/mostly nomadic Mongols), and spoke Manchu - which is a totally different language in the Tungusic language family. The Mongolian language is in a separate Mongolic family. The Manchus are also descended from the Jurchens, and the Jurchens of the Jin Dynasty fought the Mongols in the middle ages and the empire was destroyed by a combined Mongol & Song Dynasty invasion.
@@hexachire7214 They did in the 10th century, they even went as far as the Emirate of Cordoba in Spain and the southern half of the Italian peninsula. There were multiple deep raids France.
@@hexachire7214 As they went all they way to Cordoba in Spain, raiding around Tours is not off en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_invasions_of_Europe#/media/File:Hungarian_Invasion_of_Europe.png
Thanks for this video, Matt...... Will definitely be useful as I'm starting up a White Scars army, so I'll be able to give them some unique melee weapons 👌
According to my understanding, these type of sabres did not vanish from Central-Europe after the collapse of the Avar Khaganate. Other turkic or turkic-influenced pepople used them as secondary weapon like Bulgars, Hungarians, Pechenegs, Cumans (the latter two were employed by Hungarian kings as auxiliary forces). It was the dominant weapon of light cavalry in this part of Europe throughout the middle ages, the mongols has nothing to do with that. In the 15-16. century sabres became the weapon of Hussars and spreaded to Western-Europe through Hungarian and Polish emigrants.
Some corrections: Dao replaced Jian and became the dominant form of sidearm in China since Han Dynasty. Daos from Han to Song Dynasty were straight (i.e. please refer to LK Chen two-handed Chinese choppers you reviewed back then). Curved Dao began to appear during Song Dynasty period, predominantly used by Khitan Liao Dynasty and especially Jurchen Jin Dynasty. After the Mongol conquest curved Dao became the dominant type. Tunkou appeared in China around Northern & Southern Dynasties period (5~6th century AD), before contact with the Mongols.
No 2 daos are ever the same because they have vastly differing designs to each other The shorter ones that are often used in 1 hand would often be used as a secondary, but the 2 handed ones (like the changdao and zhanmadao) are designed as primary weapons, mainly utilized in warfare involving cavalry Just wanted to point that out as they're not the like jians
13:15 That’s interesting, I had thought that the curved sword of the Mongols was influenced by the Persians but it’s the other way round. Now when we thought of Muslim swords, we thought of very curved swords, who would have thought they weren’t before the Mongol invasion.
Question: do undulating blades like the ones on the flamberge and Kris succumb to the "bed of nails principle," in that if several waves make contact with the target does it actually do less damage than if a straight edge were to hit it?
Hi Matt! Question about sword grips: I recently watched some Kurosawa movies which are famously accurate at depicting historical arms and armour. In those movies many samurai lord have swords with a curved grip but unlike to turko-mongolic sabers, the grip's curve usually follows the blade's direction. In your opinion what was the practical significance of this, if any? Thanks!
I believe the Turko-Mongol saber was descended from the Xiongnu ring pommel swords (Huan shou dao). This was a straight single edged horseman's sword used form at least the Qin dynasty and popular in China between the Han and Tang dynasties, so over a thousand years. They spread to the Korean peninsula by at least the second century and the Japanese archipelago by at least the sixth. In Japan the huan shou dao evolved into the chokuto, which was later given a curved blade, becoming the tachi and katana. And by the time the Xiongnu became the Avar and Huns they had also discovered the joys of a curved blade, spreading the gospel of fire and blood across western Asia and East Europe.
I recommend "A Study of the Eastern Sword: Kirill Rivkin (the author)" to anyone interested in the topic. He has a lecture of the same name here on UA-cam.
Very interesting. I have thought they also are somewhat reminiscent of chinese dao. Maybe some hybridisation going on in the chinese Tang period? A bit piandao stylish, as you might have indicated. So curved seem to be of turkish or turkmongolic origin. And didn’t the japanese also got influenced by this?
It seems it also influenced the Japanese. The tachi that evolved to the typical katana, got it typical gentle curve after or during the Mongol Invasions
That's absolute bullshit we have examples of curved tachi literally centuries before the Genghis khan was even born let alone his descendants who tried to invade Japan.
Thanks- interesting and info-packed- would like to hear more about mongoloid weapons! A bit on Russian and east Euro swords, especially Russian- would be very interesting...
Matt! My friend, I've been watching your channel so long I've gone through 2 Scholagladiatoria t-shirts! Worn them til they're plain black t shirts, lol 😅 Cheers
I'm glad you made this video, there's not that much information about Mongol equipment and it's variety/history
There is some, but its mostly regurgitated stuff with little to no actual source evidence and fantasy pieces as examples of what the equipment looked like...
I too am glad that a channel such as this one is starting this topic, and I hope it spirals down the rabbit hole with other similar channels around :)
Obligatory plug for The Jackmeister's channel on YT. He engages heavily with the original sources and provides a lot of nuanced takes. His content is more on the academic side, but if you're already on Matt Easton's channel you could probably make the jump just fine.
Also, Jackmeister has previously contributed a lot to Kings and Generals' Mongol history videos (plus those for some other UA-camrs such as History Dose.)
@@perrytran9504Nice! Thanks for this info, I'll be sure to check out that channel!
@@perrytran9504+1 for Jackmeister!
This is definitely true, as I feel like in general, the only Asian history that seems to interest people is Japanese history. Kinda sad though because then you neglect other countries’ histories like Mongolia and Korea.
In 10th century Hungary where the archaeological documentation is very rich, there was a sabre in every warrior's grave, so we have hundreds of them of the exact type you see on the so-called "Charlemagne sword" in Vienna often with abundant gilded silver decoration of palmettes in the case of higher status ones, which is a type of decoration they already had on their sabres when they were still around the southern Ural mountains. So Hungarians knew quite well about sabres well before the 14th century and it is actually the standard sword that they were using when they made their incursions into Europe. When they were forced into christendom in about 1000 AD, they more and more adapted Western straight swords and ways of fighting. Most scholars believe that the sabre was not entirely abundened however, but was held in a secondary position for light troops and archers because recurved bows weren't abandoned either, although this is still debated as after christendom far fewer weapons were actually deposited into graves, but there seems to have been a certain continuity in the shadow of the new knights of German origin.
Unsurprisingly, as the Hungarian tribes were indeed one (or seven, if you prefer) of the Turkic-influenced groups referred to in the video that arrived from Central Asia at the start of the 10th century
" *forced into christendom* "
Forced?
i'm hungarian and i concur. We swapped to straight sword when we settled in the Carpathian basin.
To be able to establish a country in Europe at that time, you had to convert to their religion, otherwise your would be country were not recognized at all and wars or crusade followed. In case of Hungary, the would be king Stephen had to request a crown (=the right to establish a kingdom) from the Pope@@bakters
@@bakters There are sources to support that Christendom was not spread by kisses and hugs in Hungary. Civil wars continued against the king way after Stephen Ist death to return to pagan traditions in the 11th century. Several priests were executed, including the bishop Gellért on the rock you can still see in Budapest above the baths "Gellért" according to tradition. Kings had to compell with the pagans just to keep their power before bringing back the priests and striking at them again.
Xcuse me, I always Iove the content, but must absolutely correct here: the "Charlemagne sword" or "Attila sword" of the Vienna Schatzkammer is a typical Hungarian sabre from the 10th century for which many parallels are known from Hungarian pagan warrior graves, not an Avar sword. Hungarian and Avar are two different people who lived in the same Carpathian basin but at different times. The Avars had first straight very long swords with just one cutting edge. Avar sabres date to the late Avar period (about 670-8th century). Pagan Hungarians theoretically settled down only in 895 and their culture is mainly 10th century. In between these the 9th century is pretty much under documented, but there were a lot of Slave tribes and probably remnants of the Avars. In my opinion the so-called "Charlemagne sword" was a gift or perhaps even a war buty taken by the German emperor Otto Ist who stopped the Hungarians at the battle of Augsburg in 955 and had executed several prominent Hungarian princes who took part in the expedition and probably took their valuable weapons too. It was never under ground so is exceptionally well preserved and an astonishingly beautifull weapon.
карл твой был в подчении какой он великий это смешно 😂
Sabers are pretty great
The saber was always in use in Hungary. It wasn't just adopted in the 14th century. It is true that around 1000 AD the straight-double edge swords where introduced here but sabers remained but mostly with light cavalary. It never really fell out of useage.
hungary is also turkic thats why ... turkish cav sword is saber its the first curved sword used in history i can argue on metal quality probably iron age europian swords are better made coz of quality of iron but i dont know at the seljuk and ottoman era turkic swords become the finest coz of damascus steel technique there is also a sword called yatagan for infantry its curved to opposite side. and used for chopping limbs shields and against armored opponents.
@@GoldandPearl Hungarians are a Ugric speaking group of people with strong Turkic influence, nothing more.
@@alikuzyaka2152 they are turkic and apprntly you are arab :D
@@GoldandPearl Hungarians are not Turkic. They has Turkic influence on the Steppe. But they were not Turkic.
I am glad to see Turko-Mongol Sabers and their influence on later swords is talked, hopefully we will see more of them.
Arguing that Ottomans took sabers from Mongols is quite a stretch. Seljuk Turks had already occupied Iran, Levant, and Anatolia in the 11th century, about 150 years before the arrival of Genghiz Khan. Anatolia was already populated with Turkic tribes and clans by the time Genghis Khan arrived. Thats why you start seeing sabers in the East Roman arsenal much earlier than Genghis Khan.
I did not mean to imply that the Ottomans took sabres from the Mongols - rather they both had sabers already from Turkic origins and there were design elements that influenced each other.
Indeed, i think the first 'official' relations of the Eastern Romans with the Mongols are the 2 treaties with the Blue Horde (urals, the Blue Horde is the Eastern Part of the Golden Horde) and the Ilkhanate (persia). Essentially the 2 Khaganate Leaders get a princess & recognized as true heirs of Rome.
In practice, the Ilkhanate Horde (mainly) & the Romans destroy the Seljuk Turks.
More specifically, the Roman princesses enjoy great prestige, especially the princess that goes to the Ilkhanate. Btw Mongols were practicing tolerance against religions.
So the christian Princess (Maria Palaiologina) was promised to Hulagu Khan, but he dies before they arrive, and thus is maried to his son, Apaqa Khan does charities etc & gets really really famous. She was extremely influential in Mongol politics, as most Mongol subjects were Nestorian christians. Her Mongol name was Despoina Khatun, ie Lady Khatun)
After the death of the Khan (Abaqa Khan, 1234-1282), she returns to Constantinople where she establishes a church.
To this day there is a church in Instabul (Maria Mouhliotissa or Saint Mary of the Mongols), this church has not been turned into a mosque due to a treaty with the Ottoman Sultan.
Simply fascinating story.
Lastly i want to add that the slavic word for Mongols is Mogyla & the Byzantine word for Mongols does take from Mogyla. You can spot this connection into the 'Mouhliotissa' word.
Genghis Khan has a Turkic name Temürchiñ, Temujin is chinese pronunciation. Mongol Empire was 80% Turkic warriors at least. Modern Mongolians are closer to Tibetans and Manchus culturally and linguistically.
Turko-Mongol is saying like Turko-Turk. It’s redundant.
@@Qazaq_Qiyat_1465 Its not redundant because the Mongols did have different customs & they do have different language (different language family). The Turko-Mongol tag is reserved for the Mongol people who were Turkicised in the 14th century, especially in the Successor Stares, abandoning Mongol religion (but not Mongol law) & adopting Turkic languages. I have to point out however, that Mongols were very tolerant with other religions & thus were influenced by older religions (Christianity, Nestorian Christianity, Islamism, Confucianism, Taoism etc) even though Genghis was a follower of the Old Mongol ways.
@@Qazaq_Qiyat_1465 I also have to add that Turkic describes many different tribes, with different customs. These Turkic tribes also fought with one another as well. With that distinction the term Mongol-Turkic is more apparent. This is also why the term Seljuk Turk or Ottoman Turk appears, even though Seljuks have more in common with Ottomans, than Mongols.
I bought this exact sword from LK Chen in December. Still waiting for it. So excited! Thanks for the upload
that sword design took the most lives.
means I guess most effective 😶🌫️😉
Archers: am I a joke to you?
i remember arguing with someone in the comments section once because they kept insisting that Mongols were 100% horse archers
It’s amazing what video games do to modern historical understanding. I can’t think of anywhere else this could come from besides as a way to balance them in video games. Perhaps misinterpretation of a history book too?
@@Subutai_Khan the argument started because they claimed no "ninja" would fight like a samurai, i said that probably no two samurai fought the same either. the response back was something like "NO all samurai fought like samurai just like all the Greeks used phalanx warfare and the Mongols used horse archery" so therefore i must be wrong in asserting that samurai didnt all fight the same. mostly they just called me names lol
IF you want to divide up all human combat into one thing, "human combat", you can; just like you could divide up "Mongol combat" or anything else. i am pretty sure they were arguing just for the sake of arguing to make up for something in real life
@@beepboop204 Sounds like the guy got his history lesson from Ghost of Tsushima lol. Must have been a fun time.
Even if they were 100% horse archery they still would have swords and daggers as back up weapons or battle axes maces or war hammers for some units or troops against armored opponents
@@markbennett5812I had a more demeaning version of this directed at me regarding Korean history. I get that archery was the big thing but no army is made of archers without anything else
12:50 One obvious influence, from the Avars in this case, is the Byzantine paramerion. It's essentially one of these with a Byzantine crossguard and ball/nut pommel.
Edit: Oh, you mention it at 16:30 lol
Your Saber is LK Chen imitated Mongolian Yuan Dao.
Mongolian Sabers of this style have been unearthed in many ancient Chinese canals.
Vince Evans reproduced at least two Mongol Sabers that I know of.
They we're designed by the Curator/Conservator Philip Tom.
Both designs we're based on archeological artifacts found from the 1223 Battle of Khalka in Russia. I believe Scott Rodell tested one of the sabers.
Man, the colour pattern, that slight curve of this sword and way the guard fits the palm is so satisfying to behold, it looks so elegant. Frankly I am very envious you get to hold that beauty.
When people ask, "what is the best kind of sword?", the answer is that they are asking the wrong kind of question.
If someone asks, "What is the most practical kind of sword for most people in most kinds of situations?", I think there's a pretty solid argument to be had for swords similar to this in form and function. It seems like a whole lot of people in a whole lot of different places at a whole lot of different times all ended up developing something similar to a saber, and they were almost always highly popular and effective swords. Could be one-handed or two, could be double edged or single edged, could have a complex guard or a simple guard. But it seems like a lot of people would end up landing on a long, narrow, slightly curved, cut-and-thrust blade.
And somehow I still haven't gotten one for myself
Curved swords are a bit easier to make & maintain, thats why they were used a lot from nomadic people.
No, the answer is sabres.
Good ideas get around. The earlier Seljuk/Mongol bows are similar, as are the later Ottoman/Mongol bows. Put a handguard on a Shaska, or take it off the Turko-Mongol saber, you have similar swords.
Yep and all were influced by Turkic design
It's been a while since I looked into chinese warfare and sources, however as far as I remember the popularity of the Dao predates the Mongols, and it's a very common sword in use in the Tang dynasty and the Song dynasty. It is possible it's popualrity can be attributed to the Turkic Khaganate and it's subsequent defeat by the hands of the Tang dynasty, although I am by no means sure this is the case either.
Dao in those periods tend to have straight spines however, unlike latter designs which introduce curves.
iirc the straight dao with the ring pomel came around the late han era.
Also, keep in mind that the Tang, we’re Turkic in origin. They just adopted Chinese manners and institutions a little more gracefully than the Mongols did.
@@cal2127 Yeah that sounds right, either late Han or Three Kingdoms/Jin period. However I think that by that point the Jian was still more popular, although I could definitely be wrong on that.
@@evanmorris1178the tang were NOT Turkic in origins. The founder of the tang dynasty although swore brotherhood to a Turk was not one himself.
@@hiimryan2388Li Yuan, the founder of the Tang and his cousin, Emperor Yang of Sui were descended from sinicized Xianbei nobility (known as the Dugu sisters).
Man this is right up my alley as a self-proclaimed “Khanaboo”. I found it interesting in my own reading how Carpini, an Italian writer also pointed to the importance of the axe to the Mongols. Given how often they are used in Asia and Europe as horseman’s weapons, I suppose it’s not surprising but not a weapon we often associate them with. Not to undermine the sabers importance of course and it is quite possible to carry more than one type of sidearm on the saddle.
“Khanaboo” 😂 tbh that explains alot of mongol history fans
As fokos, those were also wielded by old Magyars.
I read somewhere that they also carried a mace 🤔
@@garywheeley5108 The more well-off Mongol lancers did often carry maces yes (as well as swords.) Remember also the point Matt made about the Mongols having a huge empire too. That means equipment varied quite a bit too :). Maces in general are pretty common Indo-Persian weapons as well which is an area of the world the Mongols ended up in as well. Plus you had vassal troops who could have all sorts of equipment.
@@Subutai_Khan just thinking of the logistics of producing sabres or any swords in quantity on a campaign stretching thousands of miles across Asia getting the steel and fuel for smelting I would have thought anything but swords would have more bang for the effort involved axe spear lance mace even arrows could be made from flint bone etc how plentiful was ore coal charcoal wood etc on the steppes ?🤔
Thanks for that Matt. Been fascinated about the Eurasian Horse ciltures for decades.
Thanks, Matt! This was a really interesting video about a weapon I had never even thought about until now!
This is a good, concise history of this very successful sword design.
I was sufficiently impressed by your review on this saber, and your review of other LK Chen swords, that I purchased one 😎💪
I do like the look of the off white Ash grip, I originally mistook it for some sort of horn material. I generally change my grips to mammoth ivory because I like the look and feel of ivory but don't want to help stimulate a market for modern elephant ivory.
Hippo ivory is excellent as well.
Is mammoth ivory particularly expensive?
Straight-backed Dao started to become the primary military sword back in the early iron age Han Dynasty, they are almost alongside bimetallic bronze jian. The earliest Turko-Mongol sabers are well after the straight-backed dao was popular in China. After the Yuan Dynasty, Chinese dao start to look like Mongol swords, but the Mongol swords may have been descended from Chinese dao in the first place.
Korean swords followed this with using the Chinese styles of straight backed swords and getting more curved due to Mongols and other groups. Afterwards, they became more influenced by Japanese designs following the Wokou raids and the Imjin war. As far as I recall. Korean swords end up pretty similar in dimension for awhile in terms of degree of curvature and in size. Basically looks like a katana mixed with this sword which is basically what happened. Again, as far as I recall.
I would say that the Han dynasty dao is another sword that could have steppe origins or influence. For quite a chunk of the Han dynasty it was dominated by the Xiongnu. I haven't been able to find any depictions of Xiongnu swords unfortunately, though I have found references to finding swords in Han graves that were either Xiongnu style, or decorated in the Xiongnu style. And I have also seen references suggesting that Han Dynasty and Xiongnu swords were very similar. Unfortunately I can't give more information... there are so many articles that would be very useful if I knew Chinese or Russian...
I would like to add that the straight, ring pommel dao itself derives from earlier (bronze) knives that were popular from Central Asia all the way to East Asia. I have seem examples of ring pommel bronze knives from Central Asia long before ring pommel dao is a thing.
@@gedmerrilin9010pls translate it bcs my English is bad：汉代前期一直是使用的剑，刀的起源是日常生活中使用的青铜短刀的放大加长，而青铜短刀的造型则可以追溯到商代的“刀币”了，所以我不认为环首刀收到了匈奴的影响，不过我认同中文互联网世界有太多的刀剑资料不为人所知了，真是可惜，希望lkchen和matt能为中文世界资料的交流学习努力❤
Straight single edge swords already showed up much earlier than in China. I'm not exactly sure of the first known location tho.
That is a fascinating subject. I would like to see a introduction video about the Seljuk weapons, specially about their horseman swords and their bows.
Fascinating subject! That sabre is beautiful...I can't wait to see the review!
I was looking for some information on this subject a little bit ago and couldn’t find much. Great video as always!
LKChen has one now! Ach, on more on my serious to-buy list!!
This was really good! Thank you for the historical walk through while waving an amazingly gorgeous sword!
8:30 Other early Hungarian /Avar sabers has this design as well
Crazy how popular the mongols are but we don’t see their weapons outside the compound bow ever mentioned or shown in videos.
Despite how large their empire was, some parts are not so well documented compared to others. Surviving specimens of equipment are uncommon just as in other places of this time period, and written sources while plentiful are difficult to study because they are in multiple languages (since you know, the Mongols interacted with highly diverse civilizations.) But there is a good amount of written description of what kind of things they used, and Persian artwork is particularly valuable to see what they actually looked like. Still not easy for modern armorers/bladesmiths to reconstruct anything and there probably aren't as many people commissioning it anyway.
I truly appreciate the context that you provide about all these different weapons. You knowledge is amazing and you do such a good job of presenting it in an enjoyable fashion.
Thank you!
You’re a legend I have been waiting for this video for so long
Thanks Matt for this great video. You answered a question I never knew I had.
Fascinating - and I look forward to the deeper dive.
Thanks... ☝️😎
I would say just the the arabic armies in the crusades used straight double edged sword while the turkic ones definitely used curved swords.
it makes sense if the mongols were using shorter swords -- their horses were shorter/middling sized for the most part. The true power of them came from the cooperation of the arms (especially horse archers) and the military discipline they instilled through all their branches. Feigned attacks were the norm, hit and run, parthian shots, followups and only when the enemy was broken did they pursue. They knew what they were doing, and knew it well. There is of course more to it than a three line paragraph can summarize, but I think this looks correct, and the curvedness makes complete sense from a later point of view as well -- the curve was allegedly for making its use easier for cavalrymen.
Curved swords also are easier to make/maintain.
What's lesser known is they aren't a hodge podge of multi ethnic ppl. The core monogols warriors are fathers and sons, uncles and nephes, brother in laws. If it was not safe, tell your bgrother in law, fall back BIL, sound judgement saves reckless battles. att he same time, when corneded with half his family deaad at their feet, and the other half is clinging for dear life; this is where you find your 5 men surrounded by 5K pile of enemy soldiers, and don't know if you should cry for their bravery or weep for the stupidity of the enemy. This ame mentallity was then extended to tothe rethnicityes who definitley appreiciated 9it since no other army treated you like equals, not even here in America . So the Mongols are truly a diamond in the annals of history.
I was one of the many who asked you if you could talk about melee weaponry in the Mongol armies many years back in comments! So glad you've gotten around to doing it!
More mongol stuff please!!!! ❤
The Sword Chad is here🗿🗡💯
i had a french one like the one handled here as an example and yeah the handle does curve like this sword. it was a french sword made in germany for the french revolution and according to wkc swords - the maker, they made boxes of them without guards or handles or pommels and shipped them bare bladed to france and england
Matt; I recently purchased an excavated example at Auction. Blade is intact though the pommel has separated. I’d be happy to send you dimensions and photos, since you are “gathering information”. I live in Minneapolis, and have been friends with Arms and Armor since they started. Planning on having them make me a reproduction blade, so I can practice with it.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge... I so wish you would talk about the function of those features... every time I think your about to get to the real interesting part about why they have those characteristics and how they used them, you tend to over elaborate other topics.... still though, thank you!
I will come back to these. They are very interesting swords and were hugely influential on so many cultures.
@@scholagladiatoria Will you touch on some Korean swords? I know they are designs of their neighbors incorporated into existing sword types but I would like to hear your thoughts since you provide a non biased view.
@@scholagladiatoria just to be clear, I am grateful you take the time to share your expertise with us and I always enjoy listening to your stuff, hope you have a good day sir!
Love that you cover turkic/mongol swords aswell now!
But whats the point of the curved grip?
It stops your hand from slipping.
@@markkodryk829and easier to draw and sheathed from horseback
Brilliant video dude...
I remember debating someone in a previous video of yours in the comments...
I basically said what you said in this video lol
You defo did your research mate...
Love the videos ❤
Great video! I am new to the channel. The fact that you are pronouncing Chingiz Khan closer to the correct version tells me that you have done some reading on the subject.
Awesome Matt!. I always like seeing when the Mongle Sabres get some attention. A great example from LK Chen.
A few quick notes :
During the Avar period the
guards would’ve had simple straight crosses, either with small bulbs or long quillons. we do see the beginning of one of the two most popular types of guard for these sabers, which is the star guard. The other type is what is seen on this example, which is called the boat guard. You can find forward, swept quillons during the ninth and 10th centuries on Magyar and Alan swords, as well as in the 14th century on Golden Horde Sabres.
Tunkou will likely predate the actual “Sabre” blades, showing up first on Turkic backswords (along with yelmen, and originally being quite ornate. While there are similar Chinese structures the nomad examples will be different by having an extended edge (usually innate cutting side) and often being iron and hammer welded to the blade. These will eventually be introduced to China via groups like the Liao during the Song dynasty.
Awesome! Great video choice. Keep us on the Steppes for a while please.
Good historical analysis. Would have liked some comments about the functional aspects of the sabre, ie why the Mongols did this instead of that. But still good!
Curved swords were also quite common in Hammerfell.
Those Mongols really got _everywhere_ 😁
@@ArkadiBolschek Gimme a new race for Elder Scrolls 6 inspired by them. Last time we had a new playable race was all the way back with orcs in Morrowind.
@@perrytran9504 In the various time periods the games are set, the only major races knocking about on Tamriel are the ones you can play. You would have to go much further afield to places like Akavir. Atmora would just have more Nords, Yokuda sunk into the ocean in the First Era. Pyandonea has the Maormer on it, but they're just fish elves, and also featured in ESO. If TES6 isn't on Akavir, which it probably won't be, then you're stuck with Imga, maybe Reachmen.
They also have curved swords. Curved. Swords.
Great video! I heard that the curved hilt and pommel allows you held saber and shoot a bow at the same time
It’s a very lovely reproduction. It’d be cool to see LK Chen do a 17th century Eastern Europe style saber like the Karabela.
Very informative, could you do another on the specific features and the pros and cons of each of this type of sword? Handling, cutting ability, balance, hardness, all the good stuff.
Thanks,
Bob L
Palm Beach Gardens, Florida, USA
Would be cool to see a video on Byzantine swords. Don’t see many replicas out there
The Romaic Sabre, or Paramerion (it means by the side or by the hip) is essentially a modified version of the Avar sabre. It would be hanged by a belt or a shoulder strap.
The Paramerion is essentially a single-edged sword with a slightly curved blade towards the back.
You can thrust decently with a Paramerion.
The Paramerion is also conflated with the Makhaira, a falchion/falx like sword that is usually longer and heavier.
The primary advantage of curved swords are that they are easier to make (less forging, means less flaws in the blade) and easier to fix in the hardening/tempering (deviations can be ignored, this is very important for curvature/straighteness)
When you show the Mongol sabre next to the modern sabre; to me it seems like they have their curvature in different parts of the blade. The Mongol one having its curve notably closer to the hand, and an almost straight section towards the tip - the modern sabre straight at the handle, curved towards the tip.
Is that a general trend or just coinsidence?
Interesting as always 👍👍👍.
The historian jackmeister has a documentary on medieval mongolian smitging and heavy cavalry on YT. For anyone interested
10:04 Matt you told us all about the feature but not what it does, is it to retain in the scabbard or perhaps to keep damp out. Eventually it becomes a stylistic vestige only
This is completely unrelated, but I've always wondered if a fully armored and equipped late medieval knight would be nearly invulnerable to zombie attack. Maybe for a Halloween special or something, could you cover this? Thanks!
I think Skalligrime did a bit on that some time ago. Search his back-catalogue.
Full plate with minimal openings, ie the type of plate armor that can only work with the help of a servant?
It would really depend on the kind of the zombie, as there are movies/games when the zombies are quite strong and can destroy wooden doors. In such a case the knight will have concussion & multiple bruised/broken ribs.
Other than that the knight has to be careful of zombie hordes/swarms, because the zombies will pin him down. They wont do that much damage, most likely bruises from being pushed by so many bodies, maybe difficulty breathing, and the knight will be heavily pinned by so many bodies. Maybe the face visor opens with all the zombie flailing around, if that happens things will be life-threatening.
But the zombies will be restless 24/7 and wont be tired, so its just a matter of time, as they have all the patience of the world (unless its the night of the living dead).
Earned a new subscription. Mongols are historically, organisationally really underrepresented, especially in light of their relevance.
1 Turko-Mongols used a prototype saber.
2. The Hungarians met them and started using this weapon. At the end of the 9th century, the Hungarians brought it to Europe and spread it in the neighboring countries.
3. Later, the Poles spread it further along with others. It has always been used by the Hungarians, but after the 14th century it was almost only used as a cavalry weapon. Around the 16th century, it was no longer only used by the cavalry. And it was put back into use. Around this time, it came into use in several European countries.
4. It also began to spread during the war against the Ottomans.
That's it in a nutshell. Of course, the weapon changed from time to time, but not much.
About shashka… in Russian speaking circles of experts it’s widely believed that it came actually from a knife, probably, agrarian vine cutting knife that eventually grown up to a sables size. Yet it’s very different than a sable in its balance and thus technique of use
These things don't get enough credit... Kinda anywhere 🤷🏻♂️
They are a huge part of (military) history and they did influence a lot of other swords.
However this is the first video I've seen about it.
# Sweet! 👌✌️
One question: you mentioned the black thing on the blade (the "tunku"??) at about the 10:00 point in the video - but you never told us what it actually does, and what purpose it served.
it helps with securing, although very slightly, the blade to the hilt
it also helps with fitting on the scabbard, so its held more securely
and... it looks nice
Eurasian nomads predominantly used sabres. In Hungary sabres were used from nomadic times up to the medieval times when the predecessor of modern light cavalry was first employed. Later many Western European armies adopted light cavalry as well as sabres, so that you can see the obvious similarity in light cavalry sabres of different ages and countries.
One thing I'd add - when sabers were becoming popular in Hungary in the 14th Century it's actually a return to old traditions ;) Magyars (the cultural group Hungarians descend from) fought mostly as horseback archers, led a nomadic lifestyle and used sabers almost identical to the Avar ones. They only adopted (and very quickly too!) feudal european culture and fighting style after they were beaten back by Otto III, and were so impressed they decided to become like western knights.
Thanks for the video, truly informative and entertaining.
I wondered if there's some evidence of a connection between the turko-mongol sabers and the japanese tachi (and later uchigatana)? The habaki on japanese swords seems, to my eyes at least, to resembe the tūnkǒu on the turko-mongol sabers in some regards. There also seems to exist a japanese tachi called 'Kogarasu Maru', believed to have been crafted around the 8'th centry, with a single-edged blade that turns into a double-edged blade towards the tip, somewhat similar to the design of the turko-mongol saber you present here.
Just a question that struck me while watching the video.
Have a nice day.
Best regards,
Steffen
Did these steppe swords influence later swords or is it that a curved blade (one of the minuscule options in blade types) is better for unarmored-horse combat and arrived upon by anyone engaged in this form of battle? I think the latter. Like in nature, convergent evolution/ideation is incredibly common in human history.
We could say that except for the fact that theres a ton of evidence of DIRECT heritage from turko-mongol sabers to drastic changes in sword types in the cultures they interacted with. European sabers, Indian and middle eastern sabers and chinese sabers all are pretty heavily linked to mongol influence.
I genuinely thank you for this video there is a massive amount of confusion on this subject,i have seen people calling these curved sabers origin persian, chinese... even arabic, many bogus claims.
I can't wait for more videos on this subject !
I assume that the Turko-mongolic sabre is the descendant of the long double edged blades that developed in Western Siberia and East Asia after the spread of iron production which were themselves were descendants of the last bronze age blades.
We see parallel developments of the Chinese Jian, Japanese tachi and Sassanid Persian blades from the same period, all using a similar form. The Turko-mongolic sabre seems like a development of this sword form with enhancements to increase cutting power during the literal slashing attacks used by mounted combatants.
11:00 They arent stronger cutters. However they do help in edge alignment a bit.
If they are very curved (the persian styles, but they are later period) then the are slightly better at cutting if you punch cut, but as i mentioned not at drawing cut or direct cut.
In general, Curved swords advantage is that they are easier to make/maintain. Thats a very good attribute for nomadic horse tribes.
Damn it now I have to buy this sword hah. It's so cool seeing how interconnected the world is over time, thanks for making this video.
Awesome subject! I really enjoyed it. Cheers, folks!
Loved the topic probably my favorite sword of all time
Thank you for a cursory look at the history of Turko-Mongol sabers. Since the first time I got interested in Turko-Mongol warfare, I was fascinated by the similarities between Turko-Mongol sabers and most of the European military sabers from the 19th century. I think you explanation makes sense: i.e., Turko-Mongol saber is actually a huge geographical and cultural bubble, encompassing just about everybody within East Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. Personally, I think the Ottomans might have helped to "seal" the adoption of the key features of Turko-Mongol sabers in Europe. In particular, unlike the Mongols, Europe was exposed to the Ottomans for much longer and the Ottomans were the ones you would have looked up to for the latest in military-related stuffs and inspirations until the rise of "Ottoman-killers" like Russia.
Perhaps Turko-Mongol sabers and their derivatives have consistently maintained their key features throughout many many centuries might attest to their very rich intercontinental history, well-rounded design, and style. (Personally, I think Turko-Mongol sabers and European sabers are pretty handsome.)
One thing I remember reading when I was a teenager, can't say for sure if it's true or not, though it seems convincing, was that the use of sabers like this by Turks (and later Mongols) influenced the production and use of various types of wrist/forearm plate armor (vambraces I guess) by those forces, basically to offer some protection from getting your arm or hand severed in combat. And that is something that is reflected in many armor designs by those groups as well, where, as already mentioned, plate limb defences are fairly common even relatively early on and even when a warrior otherwise might not be very heavily armored (helmet and cuirass and possibly mail shirt most of the time).
Matt's presentation is as excellent as we expect and demand but if you want to learn more about these Mongols and their propensity for crossing unfordable rivers, taking your army by surprise, destroying them in the field and depopulating your country by 70% so there will be enough grazing land to feed their horses so they can get to the next river and do it again then you might want to check out The Jackmeister: Mongol History channel.
Yes I would like to see more on the Mongol swords.
Hello Matt,
I think the forefather of this sword is the Siunnu/Hunnic straight single edge sword.
Also a little correction - The Caucasian Shashka is basically Messer/Knife. Shash/Shish is the root of the word. And Shashlik is a meat on a knifes / Skewers.
There is significant difference between Shashka and Tatar saber. And what you hold is more close to Tatar saber.
You could check also - Valeri Yotov and the weapons of the Bulgars 7-11 century.
Thank you for your video!
What was the purpose of that metal plate at the base of the blade? Was it meant to keep the sword secure in the scabbard and prevent rattling or dulling of the edge?
Three points: 1) Between Avars (6th - beginning of 9th century) and Mongols (Second third of 13th century) you have Hungarians (end of the 9th up to today - they raided e.g. France in the time of Vikings). 2) Ching dynasty were of Manchu origin, i.e. nephews of Mongols. 3) The first battles of the First Crusade were against (mostly) muslim Seljuk Turks wielding (probably) sabres. Straight-blade-wielding Arabs and Syrians came only after (probably Persian-influence sword type, single-edged and more palas-like).
"The first battles of the First Crusade were against (mostly) muslim Seljuk Turks wielding (probably) sabres. Straight-blade-wielding Arabs and Syrians came only after (probably Persian-influence sword type, single-edged and more palas-like)."
Matt refers in the video to the forces of Saladin who didn't participate in the First Crusade. Most of the conflict with the Seljuks and the Sultanate of Rûm were in the First Crusade. By the Second and Third the Crusader states held coastal territory in Outremer to receive crusaders directly from ships, and the Byzantines and Latins had reclaimed territory in Anatolia to traverse without having too much trouble with the Turks. If anything, Byzantine paramerions would be likely to be encountered when the Crusaders were sacking Byzantine territory.
The Manchus were not nephews of the Mongols. Manchus are from an entirely separate lineage of peoples, were semi-nomadic and used agriculture (compared to exclusively/mostly nomadic Mongols), and spoke Manchu - which is a totally different language in the Tungusic language family. The Mongolian language is in a separate Mongolic family. The Manchus are also descended from the Jurchens, and the Jurchens of the Jin Dynasty fought the Mongols in the middle ages and the empire was destroyed by a combined Mongol & Song Dynasty invasion.
Dont know i fthe mahyars ever made it to present day france, east francia is not the same as "france"
@@hexachire7214 They did in the 10th century, they even went as far as the Emirate of Cordoba in Spain and the southern half of the Italian peninsula. There were multiple deep raids France.
@@hexachire7214 As they went all they way to Cordoba in Spain, raiding around Tours is not off
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_invasions_of_Europe#/media/File:Hungarian_Invasion_of_Europe.png
Thanks for this video, Matt...... Will definitely be useful as I'm starting up a White Scars army, so I'll be able to give them some unique melee weapons 👌
According to my understanding, these type of sabres did not vanish from Central-Europe after the collapse of the Avar Khaganate. Other turkic or turkic-influenced pepople used them as secondary weapon like Bulgars, Hungarians, Pechenegs, Cumans (the latter two were employed by Hungarian kings as auxiliary forces). It was the dominant weapon of light cavalry in this part of Europe throughout the middle ages, the mongols has nothing to do with that. In the 15-16. century sabres became the weapon of Hussars and spreaded to Western-Europe through Hungarian and Polish emigrants.
Some corrections: Dao replaced Jian and became the dominant form of sidearm in China since Han Dynasty. Daos from Han to Song Dynasty were straight (i.e. please refer to LK Chen two-handed Chinese choppers you reviewed back then). Curved Dao began to appear during Song Dynasty period, predominantly used by Khitan Liao Dynasty and especially Jurchen Jin Dynasty. After the Mongol conquest curved Dao became the dominant type.
Tunkou appeared in China around Northern & Southern Dynasties period (5~6th century AD), before contact with the Mongols.
No 2 daos are ever the same because they have vastly differing designs to each other
The shorter ones that are often used in 1 hand would often be used as a secondary, but the 2 handed ones (like the changdao and zhanmadao) are designed as primary weapons, mainly utilized in warfare involving cavalry
Just wanted to point that out as they're not the like jians
13:15 That’s interesting, I had thought that the curved sword of the Mongols was influenced by the Persians but it’s the other way round. Now when we thought of Muslim swords, we thought of very curved swords, who would have thought they weren’t before the Mongol invasion.
Question: do undulating blades like the ones on the flamberge and Kris succumb to the "bed of nails principle," in that if several waves make contact with the target does it actually do less damage than if a straight edge were to hit it?
Hi Matt!
Question about sword grips:
I recently watched some Kurosawa movies which are famously accurate at depicting historical arms and armour. In those movies many samurai lord have swords with a curved grip but unlike to turko-mongolic sabers, the grip's curve usually follows the blade's direction. In your opinion what was the practical significance of this, if any?
Thanks!
I believe the Turko-Mongol saber was descended from the Xiongnu ring pommel swords (Huan shou dao). This was a straight single edged horseman's sword used form at least the Qin dynasty and popular in China between the Han and Tang dynasties, so over a thousand years. They spread to the Korean peninsula by at least the second century and the Japanese archipelago by at least the sixth.
In Japan the huan shou dao evolved into the chokuto, which was later given a curved blade, becoming the tachi and katana.
And by the time the Xiongnu became the Avar and Huns they had also discovered the joys of a curved blade, spreading the gospel of fire and blood across western Asia and East Europe.
Really interesting Matt!
Whats the use of having a forward arcing grip on a sword with the opposite curve? Leverage?
Now that video-preview-picture of yours almost scared me away! I hardly dared to watch the video...
⚔
JAPAN! The nested steel of the Japanese swords were a response to the Mongols and the shape is clearly similar.
I recommend "A Study of the Eastern Sword: Kirill Rivkin (the author)" to anyone interested in the topic. He has a lecture of the same name here on UA-cam.
Very interesting. I have thought they also are somewhat reminiscent of chinese dao. Maybe some hybridisation going on in the chinese Tang period? A bit piandao stylish, as you might have indicated. So curved seem to be of turkish or turkmongolic origin. And didn’t the japanese also got influenced by this?
Nifty-looking piece, halfway between a cavalry saber and a katana; I've always liked swords with a bit of an S-curve to them.
11:00 However, for the sake of completeness: Byzantine swords often had sleeves at the base of the blade as well.
It seems it also influenced the Japanese. The tachi that evolved to the typical katana, got it typical gentle curve after or during the Mongol Invasions
That's absolute bullshit we have examples of curved tachi literally centuries before the Genghis khan was even born let alone his descendants who tried to invade Japan.
Looking forward to more info on this topic 👍
Thanks- interesting and info-packed- would like to hear more about mongoloid weapons! A bit on Russian and east Euro swords, especially Russian- would be very interesting...
Matt! My friend, I've been watching your channel so long I've gone through 2 Scholagladiatoria t-shirts! Worn them til they're plain black t shirts, lol 😅 Cheers
Nice. More videos about the Mongols, please.
the false edge on single edged blades originated in Nomadic central Asia and became influential in both Europe and East Asia