Across the Spider-Verse Still MAKES NO SENSE
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2023
- Addressing the Canon Event problems of Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse and the fan theory that Miguel OHara aka Spider-Man 2099 was wrong about the canon breaking collapsing the Multiverse.
#spidermanmilesmorales #spiderverse #acrossthespiderverse
The Problem with Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse - • The Problem With Spide...
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"I'm gonna put some dirt in your eye" - Spider-Man
You forgot that miles would never have a blm patch like he does in this awful movie
Objectivity, Subjectivity, Consistency, & Inconsistency all exist in infinity, Any Objectivity of a universe or multiverse only really works in the context of their own realities, subjectivity represents the infinity itself. So Technically All The Peters & Miles that don’t believe in sacrificing one life to save a universe or multiverse is just as right as The Miguels who are willing to sacrifice one life to save a universe or The Multiverse. It all depends on the reality. The point I’m making is when you really think about it nobody in this film is truly right or wrong if we’re talking about infinity as a whole but when it comes to the rules of their own individual realities that’s where who’s right and wrong really comes into play.
Another issue I have your critique of Miguel changing between the sixteen months is that within the multiverse time doesn’t work the same in every universe so what was months for Miles could’ve been years for Miguel and it’s never established that time passes the same in his reality and Miles’s reality so we can’t really say that this contradicts anything involving his character in into the Spiderverse . Second your assuming that when we see Miguel by the end of the into the Spiderverse that his interdimensional watch gizmo is the first time he’s ever done something multiverse related or traveled through it which we don’t know for sure what his history even is with the Spiderverse before that after credit scene.
Regardless of all this what Miguel believes is true in many sets of infinite realities as much as it is false. Within the multiverse infinite possibilities means infinite possibilities within infinite realities and Miguel being right or wrong really only depends on the reality and how the rules of each said reality works but since the film addresses all universes as a whole that means both Miguel & Miles are infinitely right and wrong. Miles is wrong to think in the vastness of infinity that you can always prevent a universe from unraveling and save a life even if that causes an anomaly that originally wasn’t meant to happen. In some infinite universes you can and in other infinite universes you can’t. Same for Miguel he thinks he & his spider society can prevent as many anomalies happening across infinity as possible when it isn’t. They can’t prevent every single universe from having an anomaly nor can they prevent every single reality from unraveling. There are an infinite set of realities out there that completely contradict Miguel’s view as the amount of anomalies caused in them keeps the multiverse stable as much as their is an infinite set amount of realities that strengthens Miguel’s view where anomalies need to be avoided to keep them stable.
The MCU with No Way Home is a great example of this: Other Doppelgängers & variants from across the multiverse in that movie was causing the universe of The MCU to unravel due to Dr.Strange’s spell being tampered with but Tobey, Andrew & Tom’s Peter Parker/Spider-Men altering the fates of their villains didn’t unravel the realities they came from at all. Not all universes follow the exact same rules. Many of them do and many of them don’t. A 50/50 Split. Both Miles & Miguel, and The Whole Spider Society can’t control infinity with their world views, they can do their fair sure of saving people or keeping it stable but not every reality goes by their rules of logic. Every character in that film seems to forget about the infinity aspect of it all. Everything is set in stone within they’re own universes.
The film did great because it has a good story, any little social commentary messages in it weren't forced on the audience and it was entertaining which is what works for general audiences. Modern Wokeness in entertainment is when you force messages down audiences throat and give a poorly crafted bad story. If you tell a good story and don’t beat people over the head with messages and social commentary it won’t matter how much “DIVERSITY” you put in a movie, show etc.
The bad writing in ATSV is canon event. I just tried turning back time to change the writing, but Miguel suddenly came right in front of me and told me "Bro it's canon event".
😂😂😂😂😂
Miguel really feels like a cult leader with his Spider society let's be real.
@AtomicAsashi To be honest, I actually like Miles Morales, he's great in the comics, he was pretty good in into the spider-verse and not to mention the PS5 games.
The only complaints I have for miles in across the spider-verse would be me basically shouting: "GO INVISIBLE!" in my head whilst I was at the cinema just before that stupid chase scene.
And the fact that he didn't bring up what happened in the Into the spider-verse to completely discredit Miguel's algorithm.
lmaooo
@@madhattermaker622 He is worse in the PS5 games.
The dude has ZERO personality, boring sense of humor, and downright pathetic as a man, don't get me wrong Peter is as well.
But the dude is so bland, generic, safe and soft i feel like Miles is always about to sing about the importance of friendship.
If you ever read the 90/80 Spider-CHAD, Peter was a cocky loudmouth bastard who didn't give a fuck about anything but making you mad.
He was even annoying but in a charismatic way, and his sense of humour beat Deadpool's by a MASSIVE margin.
Now the dude is always scared of getting cancelled.
Remember when the multiverse wasn't an abused story telling device in the main continuity? Those were the days.
The best Spider-man multiverse story is still the one from the 90s cartoon.
based
💯
A fellow man of culture, I see.
@@1992holycrap indeed
Damn right. And they did the main villain better than "muh bagel so I must blame a child instead of my boss for what happened to me". Second to that is Shattered Dimensions/Edge of Time
"Canon event" is still such a silly term and a clear obvious dig at fans.
They also use Miguel intentionally as people see him as the true successor to Peter given his circumstances, “Canon Events” are fine as a concept but the way the writers are using it is basically to spite fans rather than actually utilizing it for good potential storytelling.
If anything Miles being a heroic version of the Prowler would actually elevate the character as his own man rather than him just being another Spider-Man.
No kidding there and just having that "canon event" be a thing at all in the movie, while completely ignoring all the canon breaking events that create the Spiderverse in the first place. This was bad even before the Spiderverse during the Ultimate Spider-Man animated series with all their Spider-Man knock-offs. This trend needs to die and die hard.
@@RogueFox2185You don't know who Miguel he is NOT the "true successor"
Miguel let's citizens die if it means finishing the mission
Peter in the comics basically had to put Miguel in his place since he was allowing so many to die just to catch the bad guy
In edge of time peter had to put Miguel in his place AGAIN because Miguel didn't care to save MJ's life it would just slow him down
Miles IS spider-man he earned that fucking title I don't wanna watch miles be a heroic prowler I want to see him be spider-man
@@TheAverageCthulhu Miguel is from a world where there are no heroes and it is basically a Cyberpunk dystopia, yes he starts out ruthless but he eventually learns that lesson about responsibility from Peter and he grows as a person for it.
Miles was bit from the same radioactive Spider on the same day as Peter and was then shoe-horned into being Spider-Man after Ultimate Peter was killed off which left a sour taste in people’s mouths, as a heroic version of the Prowler not only would he redeem that name but he could be a great hero without needing to be a Spider-Man.
There’s a reason why people refer to him by his real name, rather than his “mantle” after all.
It's not a dig at fans. It's a dig at clearly bigoted assholes who like to pretend their fans as a mask when you try to point out their obvious bigotry. It's the difference between PSM and Nerodic
While I still enjoyed the movie, I can definitely agree that multiverse stories are convoluted and can be picked apart from a writing standpoint.
Aside from multiverses becoming a tired trend on film of the 2020s, can we also not just rely on just memes for humourous distractions too?
Sony, the spiderman accusations pointing meme is too old now.
I found it funny the first two times but you can rest that gag. Especially if your crappy writing is still there!
You have a ton of guts to shit on this film, Nomz. Mad respect. 😎🤙🏻
Maybe this is why the three Peters (Tobey, Andrew, and Tom) aren't part of Miguel's Spider-Society: they fixed the villains from their respective universes, just simply creating branch timelines like what was described in *_Avengers: Endgame_* and not retconning their own main timelines. But according to Miguel, that's "canon violating", when it really isn't.
Universes and Timelines aren’t completely the same and despite how large he makes his spider society Miguel can't manage all of infinity itself so he can’t intervene in all the infinite realities no matter how much he tries.
i mean disney put a pedo flag in it.....ya know a animated kids film.
@@kool4209 Disclaimer: this is a SONY product.
Why do people keep forgetting that the *_Spider-Man_* film rights are owned by Sony and not Disney?
no im pretty sure it’s because having humans running around in an animated movie is hard to do and doesn’t look rigjt
@@McFrozenNuggets And youre the dum ahh that doesnt understand it doesnt change the fact. Sweetie, its why they both work together..................................................
People when they realize time travel/multiverse stories will never make sense
@AtomicAsashiwhat's wrong with ITSV? I think it was good but I'd prefer it as its own thing outside of the live action ones.
@AtomicAsashi Miles has a decent amount of differences. ATVS took the consept little too far it in my opinion.
@AtomicAsashi a life with his parents from the beginning, complicated relationship with his father figure, who's different type than uncle Ben and is a cop, somewhat abusive parents, differences in personality, and he's popular. Also, his Uncle Ben figure isn't what he deserves.
Is that enough?
@Satan-is-gay-spread-the-word I disagree. I don't think it's fair to put it that way.
ITSV did pretty good, NWH utter trash and ATSV complete dumpster fire
Everything you said, I said. There's no freakin' way that many people would follow Miguel without confirming his claims.
There’s large groups of people that unironically think the earth is flat
@@skibot9974 Doesn't compare when something so personal hits this close personally for them.
@@skibot9974 Okay. Now find me a single person with an IQ of 150 or so (that's Peter's IQ; I checked) that believes the Earth is flat.
"People are stupid sometimes" is a terrible defense of a story, and it's even worse when none of the people involved are supposed to be stupid.
Fascism is one hell of a drug
@@skibot9974But it doesn’t really cost them anything to believe that, and they get to think of themselves super smart and enlightened. It’s not: this person MUST DIE or the freaking universe will end.😅
So this is not a popular opinion, but I never really liked having more than one spiderman. I always thought having Miles kinda made Peter a little more unspecial. I also was never a fan of the Spider-Verse and having a lot of different endless spidermen running around. I would just prefer Peter Parker, but that's just how I feel. I think thats why I never really liked the whole Spider-Verse concept
this seems more like a gripe about the multiverse in general
@@forrkwidd6912 well a lot of people are getting rather tired of the multiverse concept by now. It's seems everyones using it to no end in movies and shows. It's been pretty crucial to comic book lore well before the craze spiked though But the medium usually lets you ignore multiverse stories as long as there's not big events.
With spiderman specifically it never really felt all that bizarre though. 99 percent of these Spiderman variants are in alternate realities and will never interact with the 616 on a regular basis. Heck, most of them *are* peter parker. And the ones that aren't still never operate quite like he does. Spiderwomans got different powers, Ben Riley got his own personality etc
I agree. Spider-Man Was originally created to be a stand out and one of a kind. And because it worked so well everyone wants a piece. And they want to mass produce because they can capitalize on the likeness and power set. Spider-Man Was never a mantle. Peter and Spider-Man are the same word.
how comic books used multiverses has always been more like an excuse to change a character superficially in recent years.
It's like fanfiction being canonized.
Maybe it's just me too but after Atsv, I'm just tired of Sony referencing the memes from the Spiderman pointing at each other in accusation for starters.
Yeah, it's funny the 1st time in ITSV and then NWH a 2nd time but a 3rd time is enough.
In other words, this film was made not as a means to progress miles atory but simply to say F you to people who don't like miles. As such they ignore the basis of storytelling and what it means to be spiderman?
That explains a lot.
" What's important is not standing by and let people suffer or die while you stand around and do nothing. If you don't get that, then you don't know the first thing about being spiderman. "
Peter parker. Edge of time.
@@clarenceandgennymcneil251Which is a pretty stupid ideology to follow, especially when there is greater risk that could lead to greater catastrophe.
There's little chance Miguel is wrong given the circumstances. At least, generally speaking here. If Miguel was leaning more so being wrong, factions would have formed long before Miles came along. There may be some inner conflict with some of the spider people however not enough for them to rebuttal Miguel further.
The problem is that it obviously protrays Miguel and the others as in the wrong then prop miles up while tearing down the others
Well at the very least with Miguel it makes sense. Miguel isn't like Peter. It's been portrayed that way before. A famous example is spider Man edge of time where Peter and Miguel but heads cause Miguel has a more practical approach to being spider man while Peter has a more heroic viewpoint.
@@thexarchives at that proves my point this entire organization filled with several Peter's should have torn this place down long before Miles got here but they didn't
@@subjectnivleis7572 not exactly. When almost all of the peters there went through almost all the same experiences one way or another the outliers wouldn't be looked at as much. However when Miguel starts to show he contradicting himself you see past his facade. Hobbie was the first to see past it cause he's an anti fascist punk rock spiderman. Then Gwen has her doubts Peter too. The spider society has only been around for a year at the most. Miguel's first hop through dimensions known was the post credits scene in the first movie. Miguel contradicted himself the minute he called Miles an anomaly. If miles is an anomaly canon events shouldn't apply especially with the fact his universes peter went through the canon events already. The pieces are all in the movie. They show and dont tell.
It's about thinking about all the pieces in place. Miles didn't have the same experiences as Peter or Gwen even so he's gonna look at things differently. Even looking back at Uncle aurons last words he tells Miles to keep moving forward. Miles honors uncle aurons memory by thinking about the future instead of the past. Which is different from how Uncle Ben's death affected Peter. Miles helpedpeter achieve having a family by giving him his own advice in return.
Miles isn't Peter and he will never be but that's the point. Miles is a spider man that looks to the future instead of the past the opposite of what we've known spider man to be motivated by
@@thexarchives no offense but the uncle arron for miles is exactly the same as uncle Ben for Peter straight down to how they die by gunshot at the hands of a criminal ( motivated by the past to protect there loved ones in the present ) sounds very much like Peter to me that's why he warmed up to him so much in the first one is he reminded him of himself before he became crestfallen over the crushing weight that is the Parker luck ( here's hoping miles doesn't inherent that curse )
And that is what killed the movie for me not one not a single one stood up for him this "society" claims to have every spider person throughout the canon yet they want me the belive the 90s animated spiderman would go along with this hell fucking no he wouldn't he tried to fight the beyonder when he started the secret war just to prove evil is bad 0% scenario he would ever go along with this for the same reason you mentioned edge of time 90s spiderman voiced Miguel in that BTW I highly recommend as much as I would love his autograph the tldr is the spider society imo isn't good in the movie and could have been done better does it make the movies a 0/10 absolutely not it's a good movie I just have a personal grievance that no one stood up for miles in the canon scene if anything should have caused a civil war in the base cause only the top brass knew and half support the plan other are with miles
@@subjectnivleis7572 I feel like that's something that'll happen in beyond the spiderverse. More and more of the spider society will start to doubt Miguel. Also it's not the same in context. Auron got killed cause he was ordered to kill miles but he saved him instead. Miles didn't do anything inadvertently to cause his death.
There's the difference the execution was much different and had a different impact on miles than uncle Ben's death was for peter
4:05 People don't reject Miles as a character, they reject him as Spider-Man. Just give him a new moniker and the problem is reduced, but they won't do that.
Can blame Dan slott for that like penders he is infamous in the comic industry by fans
That’s dumb tons of superhero’s have reused monikers and powers from previous characters like Barry Allen flash, Hal jordan green lantern who are more popular then the original.
@@MegaAwesomethings 1. Wally West was Kid Flash before he took on the mantle and it was agreed upon/ the original had input on his successor.
2. Green Lanterns are entire corps and you distinguish Green Lanterns by name.
3. People seemingly have no problem with Batgirl or Spider-Gwen, so clearly isn't a simple matter of having a problem with a derivative character as much as the attempt to subsume and supplant the original.
@@MichelangeloVA Yeah, even Batman Beyond had the "Beyond" distinction even if it made sense in the show to call him batman. Most people even like Terry, but he's also better written and done so without kicking down on Bruce and his legacy as batman.
As of the many Miles Morales What If comics, he has now stolen several monikers, not just Spider-Man’s.
It is time he becomes someone else.
It is time Miles Morales becomes… Captain Universe
Man, I hate how one of sci fi's greatest mechanics used *rarely* just became a tool for crappy writers to completely misuse. This whole plot and how they use the multiverse just sounds like ideologues projecting their insecurities. I'm gonna agree to your non-starter rule. I simply am gonna say that the multiverse keeps getting misused with post-modernist logic that it makes everything mean nothing, whether it's "pre-determined" or not. Most multiverses have become a "let's create this character our way because the original was wrong."
Stargate and Star Trek did multiverses much better. Even *Doctor Who* did a awesome set of parallel universe episodes.
Since literally nothing you said is true about this film, as it's incredibly well written and has the best uses of a multiverse in media, your screed is nonsensical. How fucking dumb do you have to be to make claims like "just sounds like ideologues projecting their insecurities" when this is one of the most respectful films to the character of Spiderman?
Hell, fucking Ben 10 did a better multiverse
In all seriousness Futurama had a solid parallel universe episode too
So did The One with Jet Li
@@lancethefilmguy9392 that is still the best movie on Multiverse conflict for me. It had grounded rules, consistency, and actually was built off of the multiverse theory.
We really didn't need a sequel to spider verse to begin with. It was a fun flick that was most likely made to test the waters of seeing audience reactions to the concept of the Multiverse theatrically before using that in the MCU
The canon events are stupid. I remember being frustrated every time when spider man 2099 would say canon event. Even though I don’t hate the film. The film is definitely a down grade in my option.
doctor who did that sort of thing much better with "fixed time" being more based on the butterfly effect, but that rule was ignored and broken years later.
@@ArgentWolf95fixed points in time was always a wobbly rule honestly, even before the new series came out. Different things happened when you tried to undo them and the effort it took to do it varied a lot from the doctor just having to be really stubborn, or being a universe killing entity who can just ignore the rules of time travel
@@GreaterGrievobeast55 yeah, but at least those stories ere creative, and didn't use the mechanic as a vehickle for the writer to go "Stuff canon" until the "first female doctor" came around.
I have not forgiven Chris Chibnall for that BS or the finale where supposedly the doctor is an interdimensional child a galifreyan did experiments on to create Tme Lords from, when there has been much better ideas.
I prefer the question not be asked. "Doctor Who?"
Yes Canon events are stupid that's the point of the movie, that's the message the it is trying to get across. Canon events are just something that Miguel assumed was real and then, through force, imposed his beliefs. Canon events are an excuse for fascism, hobbie recognized this
ATSV has the same problem as TFA: It’s banking on the sequel to elevate it and with the way this movie ended, Beyond has it’s work cut out to plug up the holes the plot of this movie left for it.
I have my issues with how dirty they treat characters like Peter Parker in both the comics and Spider-Verse, (and to a lesser extent Miguel as well in this movie) the writers trying to “stick it to that mentality” will make people dislike Miles more and undo what the first Spider-Verse film did to make Miles Morales a likable character compared to his comic counterpart.
This is why beyond the spiderverse will be a bad movie but the normies will never admit that until it is too late. Lord and miller were always spineless to the woke bs.
Agreed first film made me like Miles second movie cured me of that real quick
ATSV was originally conceptualized as a two part story.
@@mrconroy4672 Eh. We'll see.
@@subjectnivleis7572 I loved Miles from the first movie and after the seocnd. I love him even more!
Im glad im not the only one that thought this movie below average (when it comes to the plot) it felt weird that everyone loved this movie and said it was and i quote "A masterpiece and peak fiction".
The 2004 SpongeBob movie has a better plot and characters. At least I know im not alone
You and this idiot are definitely mostly alone. Just have terrible media literacy.
You do realize their is audience for everything why are press about other people opinions 😂
@@GladwinAbel I'm annoyed because we will never get better movies if everyone think mediocre to bad movie are good. The people making the movies will never improve if the audience says lazy movies are good enough
@@Mr.Sleepy._. the mid movies are flopping such as the flash, antman, black Adam. People know what they like and they will support it. The critics don’t just think the movie is decent they think it’s incredible, the first movie inspired no way home and puss in boots animation. All the praises it’s getting worldwide , critics and audience are refreshing to see. It’s already surpass guardians of galaxy at the domestic box office which means People are returning to watch it. Mid movies flop cause their are a waste of people time, if a movie is something special people will return to see it again with friends and family.
@@GladwinAbel never said the previous miles movie was bad and flash,Ant-Man, and black adam aren't mid they are crap I'm not saying spider verse 2 is as bad as those movies(it's way better) I'm just saying the way they wrote the story surrounding the multiverse was lazy/dumb in this movie they could've done better and once you think about it more it makes less sense. Also when endgame came out everyone (again) said it was a "masterpiece" and it made lots of money but after a few months people realized that the time travel ruined the movie and turn it into a mid film after the fact.
[You're correct] that I shouldn't care about what other people like but its just get annoying how everyone calls something a "masterpiece" when it isn't, it just insults the movie creators that work really hard to make their scripts make sense and be entertaining when someone can make a mid to below average script and everyone claps. It's just makes the hard work more and more meaningless.
The whole ''canon event'' feels like it's supposed to be a dig at people who care about canon and the lesson in the second movie will be ''fu*k canon, we can do what we want''. Which is so stupid! And because everything is predetermined and some people just have to die it takes away from the tragedy, responsibility, and consequences of the choices Spider-people make. And of course, the logical and moral thing to do is let one person die than let an entire universe collapse. It makes Miles so selfish and irresponsible. And if the next movie shows a way you can save people without universes breaking it means Spider society let God knows how many people die for no reason.
It's a movie with amazing animation and decent voice acting but the plot is all over the place. Also you can't convince me that all those versions of spider-man wouldn't have gone against miguel the same way miles does. But of course miles has to be the best spider-man ever. Oh and it's only half a movie with an annoying cliffhanger and no real end point.
completly agree the secound the canon stuff happened movie went from a 9/10 for me to a 3/10 real fast
Just one observation: Pavitar was part of the spider society and he didn't know about "Canon events".
It makes sense that Miguel wouldn't tell every Spiderperson of his theory and would only tell them after a canon event has occurred so they have to rationalize it somehow and therefore believe him. Doesn't stop them from being stupid or non -heros, just broken people looking for some explanation of the bad stuff happening in their lives.
My 0.02c
Funny how the Kingpin motivation was opening a space portal so he can get a wife and kid (from himself in another Universe, like Scarlet witch, what a dumb motivation). Miguel also destroyed a universe by pretending to be his other self, be a father. Miles willing to risk an entire multiverse for his dad/family. Hmm I’m seeing a pattern here. The writer for these movies just don’t have a lot of ideas. Yet they are trying to create a fictional multiverse. So boring and repetitive. It’s almost as if the good guys and the bad guys are all alike.
@@MugenTJ
I see what you're saying and I mostly agree but want to take it a step further:
1. Motivations are common because that's all the multiverse is good for if you have any sort of ego. Multiverse gives you a chance to see different lives you could have lived. If you've ever had loss and had a possible way of "living a pre-loss" life, I personally fail to think of any other story ideas. Maybe a Magic Schoolbus movie..
2. Good guys and bad guys being alike is like the best thing. The key tension and character study being what they are willing to sacrifice to get what they want. Kingpin/ScarlrtW is willing to sacrifice almost "everything" and therefore a villain. Miguel is happy to prune a few branches. Miles is struggling to not sacrifice anything. Same motivations, different choices.
Now let's see if the choices and story resolve coherently...
@@narwhaletuber you are making a fine argument there! The problem is that it is not realistic characterization of good guy and bad guys.
1. Good guys tend to fight for what is just, fair, oftentimes against tyranny. The hero journey is growth and sometimes by accepting losses. As is Miles isn’t a hero yet, just a kid with power and quite full of himself. His suffering is purely from unable to come out to his parents; that’s very superficial because it’s much more beneficial to hide your secret identity.
2. In contrast bad guy lean on exploiting others, the unjust, the tyrant, they don’t learn from their ways. Miguel is walking a tight rope here. He can easily become a hero the next movie or the main villain.
Of course the movie isn’t done and we can’t tell for sure how things will resolve. It is as if the tension is created between the movie and the audience, because we are left to argue who is who.
Back to my original point, villains tend to seek control for themselves, often driven by selfish motives. If a bad person lost a wife and kid he just go get another woman and make more kid. and probably abuse them. So my point is the movie make the villain a good person and a good guy a bad person because they have the same motivation and willing to take huge risks. This trope is interesting once but nowadays we are asked to sympathize with both sides, and sometimes the good guy is not likable either. Make for unpleasant fantasy.
I don't hate this movie but there is no denying it is incoherent as hell. (I've gotten even die-hard fans of this movie to admit this.) THos incoherencies lend themselves three solutions: 1) Miguel is wrong 2) Deus Ex Machina BS 3) Miles is just that special.
All three would be terrible for different reasons. If Miguel is wrong that means new incoherencies arise and it means that nothing really matter. We can do what he want, and we don't care if you complain about inconsistancy. If there is sometype of Deus Ex Machina (like Miles pulling new powers out of his ass that save the day or Spot doing sometype of universe reset) then this movie just ends up being lazy written and lame. If they make it so that Miles is just that special that he doesn't need to follow the cannon then this is just blatant poor borderline Mary Sue writing that's only there for Disney and Sony to try to convince Miles is just that great and when you think of Spiderman, you should actually think of Miles first because he is just that great. Either one of these ending would be awful. (The Deus Ex Machina would probably be the least awful but still awful.) However there is no denying they have written themselves into a wall.
This is another No Way Home hype period for many people. It will come and go once people realize how bad it really is.
Trust me, I have avoided these movies and hype trains like the plague because I knew the movies would be mediocre at best, regardless of me being called crazy.
Considering that this film is objectively well written while No Way Home isn't, this is cope from you.
@@za-ir5nilol the fact these guys are bother that a movie is going well is funny as hell. All this outrage won’t change the critics score or box office 😂
You cannot call it objectively well written while this whole canon event nonsense is a thing
@@kingingrey1882 are you gonna cry? People liked the movie you didn’t move on with your life
It's funny because I never liked Miles Morales, he's a clear obvious token, but from what I gather from other detractors the first Spider-verse film actually made them warm up to Miles, they were or have accepted him and considered him worthy of being a Spider-Man. Then the sequel comes out and completely negates all that effort. This is why I never give any of these fools a chance, because I know they always do a "bait and switch" because deep down they are spiteful and they hate you and you know what? It's okay to hate them back.
and who is them?
People hated him in the comics when he first came out cause they character assassinated Peter turning him into an unlikable asshole. Then killed him off then replaced him with miles that had the charisma of a plank of wood and if you dared call it out you were labeled a racist we have come full circle all the good writing of the first movie and good will of the first film undone and at this point I'm convinced it was by accident and the canon plot was to say fuck you to the fans
@@subjectnivleis7572 OH ok understandable
Spider-Verse Miles is his own authentic person, not a token Peter Parker like he is in the comics. I've also heard that Insomniac Miles is very well-written, but I haven't played Spider-Man PS4 much just yet.
@@boyishdude1234 I haven't played the new Spider-Man game, but I heard it's good and and that Miles is well written.
Thanks to your video on the canon event stuff, I was able to save my money. I can’t believe what the film did to Miguel and he is one of the best Spider-Men ever made, at least to me.
Another SPOT on video.
I’ll see myself out
Same. I wish Miguel one day got his own proper series on the level of Spectacular. He's objectively one of if not the best Spiderman variants (depending if you count Superior Spiderman), yet he doesn't get half the attention he deserves.
So you're easily duped by an idiot making poor arguments against a great film. Actual NPC behavior.
@@kindlingkingRumor had it that he was going to get his own series back in the late 90s, but Fox thought it was too similar to Batman Beyond.
I feel like miguel is just a poorly presented straw man. I can try to understand the mindset of his character but there are multiple universes anyway where different things happen ALL THE TIME. So who cares?? Spiderman is supposed to save people not matter what. I'm sure thats the theme of the next movie. Spiderman doesn't give up and does whatever he can, or whatever
*Of course* he's a straw man, that's the only thing these writers & their ilk can effectively/successfully argue against.
Didn't Fisk die? Can't remember. If so...
@@dranixrush3306 Pretty sure he was arrested at the end of ItSV.
@@1992holycrap Ok.
Edit: You addressed it.
A problem I haven't heard addressed (almost) anywhere, is that we're shown, at a bare minimum, 200 Peter Parkers in this movie, interestingly enough nome of which are in Miguel's inner circle, which is beside the point but still interesting to note. So Peter's lowest canonical(this movie makes me hate that term now) IQ is 145 and his highest can be compared to Batman/Iron Man levels of 280 but is usually frequented to 250 because of his age. So how, in 16 months, were none of the 200+ Peters able to figure anything out about this?
Using the average, you'd be looking at roughly 400,000 IQ which is insanely high in such a compact space with such a small population. Like for reference, the people in our modern world that are considered true geniuses have average IQs of 160 however they have an average age at least 2x of Peter's.
It is such a poorly conceived plot device so much so that it would be entirely feasible for people in OUR WORLD would be able to point out how stupid this movie's central plot is and would have somewhat triangulated the issue but amazingly stupid to simultaneously imply that over 200 Peter Parkers couldn't have already solved it.
Also, to my memory, the 145 IQ belongs to Ultimate Spider-Man which tracks because he's quite young at that time.
200 sounds like a lot but when considering the scope of the multiverse there are millions of not billions of spider people out there Gwen wasn’t kidding when she said it was an exclusive club
Also intellectual people can be mislead with enough persuasion or lack of information. Palpatine managed to convince 99% of the Galaxy the Jedi were traitors in spite of them acting as protectors for thousands of years. He was able to do this by obfuscating and manipulating facts that would contradict his narrative and the Galaxy bought it
@@skibot9974 Just to point out scale, there are infinite multiverses. There are, in theory, an equal amount of infinite universes with and without spiderpeople, which inherently messes with the plot but besides that, yeah, infinite spider people.
Correct me if I'm wrong, the SW scenario took years right and not less than 16 months? I'm not saying Peter couldn't get incentivised this way, infinite possibilities and all that, however, they chose to show Peters that are able to rationalise under intense emotional incentives; Insomniac and Spectacular just to name some quick and easy ones. Honestly, even if the characterisation of Peter is ignored, the timeline completely ruins this, this is not conceivable. The knowledge this movie was written with a level of spite shows that they know they did a multiversal character assassination; they literally have Miles call it out and provide the most bs answer.
@@tajaniscott Palpatine managed to have practically the entire Galaxy on his side from day 1. Remember everybody in the senate except Padme and Bail cheered when he crowned himself Emperor. It was only as time went on people realized how curropt Palpatine was. In both the old and new canon the biggest defection from Empire to rebellion occured with Aldderan’s destruction which was 19 years after Revenge of the Sith. And from what I can tell most people who joined the rebellion didn’t care about the Jedi’s innocence or want them back nessicarly they just wanted Palpatine gone
Also the first Spider-Verse film established that different dimensions run on different time scales. Gwen got “knocked into last week” arriving in Miles’ dimension the week before Blind Peter made contact with the collider, and Peter Noir said in his world it’s 1932 when it’s clearly the 21st century in Gwen and Miles’ dimensions.
Given these differing timescales and the fact the Spider-Soxiety base seems to operate outside the boundaries of time I can definitely belive Miguel could have recruited that many Spider-people despite only 16 months passing in Miles’ dimension
@@skibot9974except try having the senate and all the people he fooled be altered versions of himself that are just as intelligent. Now that comparison doesn’t work
Its because the canon events make sense, so people with high IQs would understand it
The people in real life who dont aren't paying attention to the movie
Miguel is probably wrong about some of it but what he says makes sense
I never thought for a second that miles was in the right. What is his plan again to save his dad and his reality? Dumbass even ended up in the wrong universe and by the looks of it. It is screwed because of him existing. Now that wasn't in his control and he is lucky reality didn't break. And I am also okay with him fighting to find a way, but antagonizing all spidey people and insinuating they are all stupid and miles is the ONLY one who is right is just laughable.
Miles was a good character in ITSV and the PS4 Spider-Man game. The general public were already warming up to him. You didn’t need to tear down Peter (or any other spider character like Miguel for instance) to prop up Miles.
Miles can be great stop having zero confidence in Miles, Marvel. Let the boy stand on his own. He can do it. You refuse to let him.
and the worst part it dosen't make us hate Miguel and magicaly love miles it makes us hate him more as it proves the only way they can give him a W is by tearing other heros down
That's what upset me. Peter was great in the first spider-verse film. He was really the teacher that passed down the torch to Miles; lets not forget, he was the only guy to support Miles all the way when everyone was ready to abandon him in the first. Then in the sequel as soon as a I saw the tear downs especially from race swapped Jessica Drew, I was rolling my eyes. It's been two films and it still feels like the writers don't know how to push Miles to be a likeable character.
@@terryrocks2jThat has always been the problem with Miles Morales since his inception.
The biggest difference between Miguel & Miles is that Miguel was created to be ANOTHER Spider-Man while Miles Morales was created to REPLACE Spider-Man. The guy who invented the Miles Morales character admitted that one of the reasons why he created him was because he didn't think his son could look up to a white guy named Peter Parker because he did not look like him.
It seems like for years Miles Morales has been trying to replace Peter Parker in every way to the point that he was shoehorn into the movie world back in 2017 so he could have his moment in the sun. However, the irony is that instead of being known as Spider-Man he is only recognized by his real name.
@@lancethefilmguy9392 that same thing happened in the reboot of the tv show reboot instead of it being about programs like the first show it was about a gary stu that had the same name as the directors son
@@lancethefilmguy9392 Marvel & Bendis were clearly *hoping* that the fans would just abandon/forget about Peter Parker & accept Miles Morales as the only Spider-Man; unfortunately, that didn't happen(nor will it ever) & has instead made him disregarded at best & outright *hated* at worst.
The cannon event was so damn stupid.
Cannon was already broken with THE FIRST SPIDER-MAN MOVIE WITH TOBEY IN SEVERAL WAYS!
THATS WHY THE FILM MAKES IT A POINT THAT THE CANON EVENT ISN"T TRUE YOU IDIOT! Fucking terrible media literacy bro.
I think Miguel is wrong in the story. They probably will find out that incursions are what actually breaks the universes
4:18 nobody ever rejected Miles Morales, in fact everyone liked him. But Peter Parker is Spiderman and Miles is Miles Morales Spiderman
Comic Miles people did, but Comic Miles was also written very bad. Into was the first real good rendition of Miles Morales we got even if if he isn't special or unique in the spiderman world.
Such a dumb movie. You'd have more luck teaching your dog to speak French than explaining this to the crazy fans 😅👍
LMAO oh well cant hurt to try
Yeaaah, I liked the film but it's not a masterpiece like most people say it is.
Also what's up RobotHead, Loved the lightsaber video.
*Edit: Nevermind, I'm not a big fan of the film anymore because I'm noticing more and more and even more issues with the film that I feel like I'm just denying the truth. But one thing I can't deny is that because I'm a bit of a passive viewer I still had a lot of fun watching it for the first time at least.
@@anomalyinc3239I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I’m gonna say this right now, but even with its small problems, Across the Spider-Verse is still better than the Flash, y’all just jealous that this movie is flourishing in terms of innovative animation, a deep story and the fact that this movie performed better than the Flash. Go to the corner and cry incel 😂
@@luisquintero7359Not once did either of these Two UA-camrs mentioned or praised the Flash, Anomaly has hate for the Black Adam movie for being nonsensical and stupid so he'd pretty much have those same feelings for the Flash who's coincidentally doing the same thing Across the Spider-verse did; Excessive Cameos of beloved characters, Two versions of the main character, and a Multiverse plot that tries to say F You to the concept of Canon. And despite ATS' Ingenuity and expansion on animation the story is still a clusterfuck of contrivances that make the plot break apart rendering everything else good about it meaningless. As the Floof-Artist's professor once said: "The Story is the crux of the Narrative, bad animation can't ruin a Good story, however Good Animation can't save a bad story."
It's a great pair of films and will probably be an amazing trilogy once a third film comes out. It's about fighting authoritarianism. Everything from cultural expectations, to the hierarchy of the spider society, to the metanarrative about censorship specifically the comic code authority. It's a great movie on its own, it's even better when you explore these themes.
The entire movie is just really contrived yet with also nothing really happening, quite the accomplishment really
We all can agree that the writers and directors were so hellbent to prove all of the Spidey fans wrong that it ended up screwing everything up in the plot and when it comes to multiverse plot-lines(which I loathe) both Disney and Sony are not smart enough to do one for they take simple concepts and they pick and choice what works and what doesn't and it gets to the point of multiple contradictions within the film and it is beyond infuriating.
No, because none of that is true. It's incredibly well written actually. You guys are just really dumb.
@@za-ir5nii don't think you prove anything insulting others
@isauldron4337 Actually I can considering all the bad attacks on the film and the writers from this video with horrible media literacy.
@@za-ir5ninerd
Subjectivity and "headcanons" have ruined criticism. It takes away the flaws that are still relevant in a piece of entertainment because a person thought "Hey, I think it should probably go this way which makes it better in my head!" Piss off.
The animation was gorgeous to look at but the story was nowhere near as strong as into the spider verse.
Exactly. The movie gives you a choice between two really awful alternatives:
1. Miguel is right and the entire "multiverse" is driven by predestination and fate, no one has any choice or influence on the future. Also, notoriously independent-minded, optimistic and fundamentally Kantean Spider-Men take on roles of archons, willing to sacrifice people in the name of cosmic order.
2. Miguel is wrong and pretty much every single Spider-Man and Spider-Woman ever depicted, aside from "holy" Miles, is a submissive idiot and an archon. This includes widely popular Spectacular and PS4 Peters at the minimum.
What really gets me is how this movie has an audacity to assume sovereignty over other Spider-Man media and treat those as thralls. It recontextualizes works like Spectacular Spider-Man without input of its actual creators. Next time you rewatch Spectacular, you would have to keep in mind that Peter willingly played lackey to Miguel and is either an archon or a stupid archon. ASTV spoils the works that came before and that's disgusting.
That's honestly the most enraging part of all this: Lord & Miller's selfish vandalization of the entire Spider-Man franchise & brand in addition to the character of Peter Parker, whom is(contrary to their, Sony's, Marvel's, & Disney's *DESPERATE* hopes & dreams) intrinsically intertwined with the name "Spider-Man").
@@1992holycrap Yes, the whole movie is an attack against Lee's and Ditko's legacy. "Canon doesn't matter, older stories are stupid, Miles is a superior Spider-Man, deal with it". For this they invented a contrived scenario, made older characters like Peter and Miguel act out of character and gave sympathetic point of view to Miles, Gwen and Hobey. They bring in established canon actors/characters and make them look pathetic to prop up new ones. It is very similar to Last Jedi, just more subtle and better executed. It is so subtle that it fooled the masses, except for few fans. My advice is to treat ATSV as non-canon for the fanfiction it is.
The spider-society member are blinded by their own past. Miguel seems to be correct, as far as they know, and they know that losing who they love made them who they are. Because of this, they make drastic changes and difficult decisions in order to help someone. if you found out that in literally every single version of yourself through countless realities tripped and fell in front of their boss and got fired, wouldn’t you be prepared for it to happen as well? They agree with Miguel because they all experienced it firsthand
Spit the truth, man! The fans of this movie sit on copium and are annoying af.
Seems like yolo doing some copion because this movie is popular and people love it
It's critically acclaimed, beloved by almost everyone, and is a huge box office success. Who is the one coping?
And here they are!
@@legohater9111you getting annoyed because the majority like sometime you hate is screaming incel
What's funny is that they have no arguments against the points made in these videos.
Yeah, I knew that would be the defense the second you pointed out this plothole, despite how dumb it obviously is. Even if, by some miracle, they could come up with a satisfying explanation that explains away all the inconsistencies this would cause with the previous movies (which they can't), they would be rendering the entire central conflict of the second movie pointless, and making 2099 and all the Peter Parkers look like morons. Imagine how unsatisfying rewatching Across the Spiderverse would be, if they went this route, and you knew that they were all fighting over nothing.
When the best way to "fix" the plothole, that the writers have dug themselves into, is to retroactively undermine the previous movie, then it's pretty obvious that none of this was intentional. If this was their plan the whole time, then they would have laid clues eluding to the final twist, that would make sense in retrospect of the twist. That's what writing a good twist requires for it not to be contrived and stupid. You should be able to rewatch prior scenes, with the twist in mind, and be able to see them in a new light that helps elevate the scenes even further. Given that this is clearly not the case, that means the writers were just bad at their jobs and didn't realise the giant, gaping plothole they opened up by introducing this mechanic. Either that, or they did realise and didn't care to fix the issue, hoping the audience were too stupid to notice. Either way, bad writing at it's finest.
You nailed it exactly. That begs question if Miguel is wrong, the technology being used to detect an incoming canon event is then completely faulty meaning what exactly is it alerting too.
I'm still waiting for a solid argument for why this is even a plothole. Nomz failed to provide one last time, and I doubt he'll provide a good argument here. He doesn't have much in the way of media literacy and critical thinking (anyone else remember when he complained about the Venom movie being a terrible adaptation despite the fact that he's clearly never read the source material?).
The "canon" is a red herring from an emotionally driven character. Based on everything we know so far, there is no plot hole, just stupid people who don't understand the story complaining about how it supposedly makes no sense.
@@boyishdude1234 You didn't provode any counter arguments
@@supoa9489 I don't need to provide any. What is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. No arguments have been presented by Nomz for why this is a plot hole/bad writing. All he did was insult the opposing side of the argument, take certain things out of context and beg the question. He's biased.
@@boyishdude1234 Even if it's explained in a way that's not a plothole, it still would mean the entire conflict is centered around a mistake and thus rendered pointless and stupid. The twist would make the plot of the second movie just a contrived means to artificially generate conflict between Miles and the Spider Society. It would make the Spider Society look like idiots for just randomly believing 2099 without solid proof. It would mean Peter Parker was somehow convinced to go against his every principle, by standing by and letting people die that he could have saved, based on an unconfirmed theory that turned out to be wrong. Absolute best case scenario, it's some really weak writing, that character assassinates Peter, and all the other Spider Society members, in order to elevate Miles to Spider Jesus status.
If it's not a mistake, it's 100% a plothole, because Miles should have destroyed his own universe ages ago if the "canon" actually mattered. He was never meant to be Spiderman and everything he does after getting his powers would have massively altered the timeline, causing his universe to implode.
I don't see any way out of this hole without the pay off making no sense and/or being incredibly unsatisfying.
Has there been too much multiverse plotlines lately?
A trend people have caught onto when they noticed it's popularity
In the early 2020s, it's already a trend burned out
Yes.
There’s no way BTSV will be any good because of this film. They fucked up so much in this movie to the point that it’s 100% guaranteed to be just as bad if not even worse.
Miles :Everyone keeps complaining on how my story is supposed to go
Naw imma do what makes me happy sorry im heading home
To my understanding, the Spider-Men from their respective universes at least weren't letting people die, as we saw only Gwen got the notification of a canon event and Pavitr was grateful to Miles for saving the captain. I think Miguel told them these events exist but not when they're going to happen. So they can save a captain or an uncle multiple times, knowing that someday it won't work out. And knowing that it won't be their fault probably makes them support Miguel's theory.
I think that only the Spider-Men which are in a different universe get the notification of these events so that they don't interfere. Needless to say, the more I try to wrap my head around why Miles' universe is still intact and nobody questions it, the less sense it makes.
Not to mention there is NO character development in this film. The first movie is so compelling because Miles goes from this afraid kid to a more confident, competent super-hero. The moment he jumps of the building is so powerful!
In this movie they rehash a bit of the same conflict by having him feel alone and upset that he can’t tell his parents who he is. The problem is this undoes his accomplishment in the last film of finding belonging with the other spider people and learning how much his dad loves him.
So instead of taking his character forward they take him backward and then he remains a static character the entire rest of the movie.
There’s plenty of potential conflict to be found from a teenage Spider-Man who’s powerful but bound to use his abilities in some immature ways. But instead they contrive conflict in an unconvincing way and despite it supposedly having huge consequences, it feels like it has no stakes for Miles. Now they can make Miles do anything they want and it’s irrelevant to the outcomes because any explanation they make for the resulting events can never be as twisted and nonsensical as the canon-breaking events theory.
Spot, but it's bad character
I remember the movie got delayed by like a year, to me It seems like Sony saw how much of a hit no way home was, they probably wanted to try and replicate that with this film. It just doesn't end up working imo but because we get fan service, cool action scenes and visuals people over look its faults. I think they should have just focused more on the villain instead of doing the multiverse nonsense
Josh Keaton, one of the most beloved voice actors of Peter Parker, who headlined the most beloved Spider-man show period, has one line just agreeing with Miguel.
Also, I love how this movie just trivializes all the deaths that have occurred. Instead of being a lesson that Spider-man takes with him, like responsibility with Ben, sacrifice with Captain Stacy, and the dangers of having a dual identity with Gwen, all of it is literally just saying "it's destined!"
Its obvious miguel is wrong. Canon events are the red herring. What spot is doing and the many other characters that dont have the wristband are in other universes fucks with each universe. The spot doing what he did is obvious why mumbhattan is starting to fall apart.
The problem is an incursion. He inserted himself into a universe he didnt belong in. Breaking the canon is an obvious mislead.
So, I got into an argument with a Mauler hater in the comments of Shadiversity's Jack Saint response, and at one point he said this:
"Yeah, MauLer is totally not CinemaSins. The people who get stuff wrong all the time and have shallow af argument that don't hold up to scrutiny. Yeah, like the time Mr. Gas Mask said Peter's character in Across the Spider-Verse will age badly because he would never support an institution where people have others choose between saving one life or sacrificing said life for the greater good? Saying that was out of character for Peter? Yeah, Peter Parker never had to make a decision between saving one life vs sacrificing it for the greater good ever in his character's history. It's not like there was an entire triple a smash hit game about that was released in 2018."
I then expressed my confusion, as I had never heard Mauler say that, and then said "Granted, I haven't seen Across The Spiderverse, so I don't know the entire context of the scene you're talking about (Which I only said because I wasn't trying to act like I knew Spiderverse better than this dude, I was just trying to ask a simple question to understand why Mauler was wrong), but how is that a bad argument? Yeah, Peter was put in situations where he had to make a decision between saving one life vs sacrificing it for the greater good , but that doesn't mean he would support a system dedicated to that. That's like saying "Greg has had to wait in line at the DMV, therefore he would support a system where every day people wait in line at the DMV."
Then, this dude responded with "Yeah, it absolutely makes no sense that Peter, who has always been in stories promoting the idea that without Ben's death he would have never become the amazing hero he always was, would support a system keeping canon events that make other heroes amazing in tact. God, what "objective" criticism does to people."
Then, I asked "So you're saying that just because the traumatic event Peter went through just happened to make him better, that means he would advocate for the same thing happening to other people?" which given how Peter Parker is a SUPERHERO doesn't really seem like something he would do, and then the Mauler hater responded with "YES. That is literally what Peter Parker's stories have told us about Uncle Ben's death ever since his origin story was first explained." Then, after I expressed my confusion with this clip: ua-cam.com/video/-WHpQVMZbjo/v-deo.html, he then said "Yeah, you're not too familar with Spider-Man. Which makes me wonder why you thought you can defend MauLer's ridiculous take to begin with. Know what you're talking about first."
In short, thanks for validating me. I had a feeling that didn't make any sense.
I personally think the “canon event” thing is actually wrong in universe as well. I think there’s only specific universes with the “canon event” none sense, while most others don’t. It explains why so many universes don’t have some of the so called “canon events” that Miguel highlighted in the film. But that’s just my theory, I’m probably wrong or half right at the very least.
I read that in your voice 😂
You are probably wrong completely. It's a stupid theory.
@@PhenomLight Even though the concept of the infinite multiverse already suggests that nothing is set in stone in every universe, hence an infinite multiverse with infinite possibilities. If every universe was bound to canon events, then alternate universes like the ones shown in the what if comics, or even the marvel ruins books, wouldn’t be able to exist within marvel’s multiverse (and that’s not even mentioning the many other adaptations of Spider-Man that lack these key “canon events”)
Plus Miguel himself doesn’t even follow any of these canon events in his origin story, and Gwen’s dad not becoming captain at the end of the movie also shows us that Miguel is bullshitting. Canon event logic has more holes in it than the spot does
Don't worry Nomz were here to try again support you and your power to share your honest opinions. 👊
I agree. I love nomz
6:06
This argument is pretty weak, but for consistency we're gonna break it down bit by bit.
"Some people speculate that it was spot causing the instability in Mumbattan": I feel to write this off as just speculation is kind of weird. The black hole that eats the bottom of the city in the scene is very clearly the same stuff that split the building in the first place. It's clear that the Spider-team and Miguel attributes it to a canon even because it's weird multiversal stuff and it happened after something that "should have" happened. Also it doesn't start where Inspector Singh didn't die, but instead where the building fell.
"But that doesn't line up with the timeline at all": I straight up don't agree with this. This is the first "canon event" we see take place in the movie. In fact, the only other one we see is a flashback from miguel (who is set up to be unreliable).
"This has apparently happened in other universes, and miguel supposedly caused one to collapse just by existing": This is clearly supposed to be questioned. They're obviosly leading you to think "wait, if miguel's universe collapsed by him just being in it, then how would miles' universe still exist?" which makes miguel's theory seem unreliable.
"If miguel's wrong, it renders all this multiversal rules crap meaningless!": You're so, so close to answering your own question.
"Miles morales' existance and his effect on Peter B. is such an obvious tell that all the multiverse rules aren't real and miguel is wrong! Why doesn't miles point it out?": It's almost like this is a setup for a future reveal. Too bad there's no sequel or anyth- oh wait.
"If the multiverse stuff is wrong, then that means the other spider-men blindly followed miguel and let people die for something that wasn't real!" - Miguel provides a very compelling argument for most instances of spiderman, because a lot of them have already had these "canon events" happen to them. To be told that all the suffering you've been through has a divine purpose of keeping your entire universe safe would probably make you think that it's for the greater good as well. "But they're supposed to be geniuses!" Yes, but they're also human. And they're in a lot of pain and have just been given an answer.
Again, you're criticizing a story that literally isn't finished yet.
"Miles morales' existance and his effect on Peter B. is such an obvious tell that all the multiverse rules aren't real and miguel is wrong! Why doesn't miles point it out?": It's almost like this is a setup for a future reveal. Too bad there's no sequel or anyth- oh wait.'' tbf, this argument points out how dumb-down most of the spider folks around Miguel truly are...if the sole goal was to make sure the universes are align to their canon events, then certain anolomies like mayday and co should at least raise suspicion amongst some faction...issue is that the writers either didn't want to provide much needed nuance or they specifically written the faction to be dumb-down for miles to be against this philosophy for the sake of protecting the universes...the structure of the movie was not well-thought out...but if beyond does do the story element some justice, then this movie ultimately would be looked on for value rather than concern.
@@justthatguy9077It was rewritten five times apparently.
What your saying makes so sense, there should mutiple Spiderman that did their own research and investigation not joined Miguel before Miles rebelled. Not believable at all.
@@supoa9489 It’s somewhat believable.
@@creedecriswell634 How when there are clearly other spiderman's in other multiverse stories involving alternate spidermen who have countered or disagreed with certain actions from the camp who have a hivemind.
Did you love Mission Impossible 7? Well, I didn't love it although I like all the previous ones. What's your take on this movie?
Nah lots of people hated miles back in the day
From what I've heard, that was more of a testament to Axel Alonzo's dogshit writing.
But yeah, Miles is pretty pointless.
Just give us the darn full review already. I’m going back to see it today. To see if my feelings change.
Canon lol. The only canon is the comics which right now dont matter
Movie video in good quality is out, when are you going to do the full review?
This video came out on a good time, just had to bury a pet today, thanks Nomz.
I’m sorry
Aww, you ok? 😢 🫂 🤗
I hope I don't come across as antagonizing since I think you make an interesting thoughts on this movie and I'd like to hear what's your thought on this.
Regarding Miguel is wrong, it could be because of Kingpin's collider. Fisk is trying to get his son and wife from another universe. That universe could be the alternate universe Miguel tries to live in.
Wait...that doesn't makes sense like you said since what happened to Miguel came after the kingpin's collider event ? However, you should remember how Gwen got pull in to Miles universe BUT she got blown into last week.
This may sound like BS writing to you but I'm willling to give it a benefits of doubt.
It could be that the kingpin's collider affecting time as well. It throws Gwen into last week while affecting the future where Miguel tries to live in his alternate universe.
I think the hole in Miguel's perception of Canon event is time. Time works differently here and he doesn't consider that.
This go off the main the topic but this will probably iritates you since spiderman story is not suppposed this big of a scale but please try to just listen to my thoughts (U can disagree).
I think Miguel's character arc is suppose to be a lesson that someone should never get drown in their loss and depression. Miguel is so filled with guilt that he believes being Spiderman is to sacrifice his own happiness. This may sounds noble but this caused Miguel to not get the full picture of the instability in spiderverse because his depression made him biased towards his cannon event theory.
Last thing, even though the scale of this spiderman story is insane, I think it did well of trying to keep it personal. The stakes of how a universe could be destroyed boils down to Miles saving his dad or everyone else dies.
I have more to write but I think this is enough, would you kindly reply ?
If the universe Miguel invaded unraveled just from him being there, that would mean Miguel created an Incursion, since the MCU established that the longer someone stays in an alternate universe the more likely an incursion will occur. The anomaly thing makes no sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. It's a red herring.
@boyishdude1234 I know, the writer wasn't exactly subtle with how completely wrong Miguel is.
@@jeggsonvohees2201 I thought you were criticizing the film because of the last part where you said that the anomaly thing makes no sense. If you didn't intend it that way, then I'm sorry for putting words in your mouth, but that's just how it reads.
@boyishdude1234 It's fine, I'm criticizing the writing. Miguel's evidence is so shoddy that there's no way it convinced hundreds or thousands of spidermen to follow him.
@@jeggsonvohees2201 It's only shoddy from the audience's perspective because we have access to additional information as observers/witnesses to the story unfolding that the characters don't. Have you tried to consider what the characters would likely think of Miguel's position based on their limited knowledge and understanding of the multi-verse, as well as the emotional incentives they would have that come from their traumatic, unfair lives?
What if disrupting a canon event doesn’t destroy a universe, but renders it “non-canon”, and Beyond the Spider-Verse takes place in non-canon-universes? I have multiple reasons to believe this, such as the fact it’s called “Beyond” (Spider-Verse is canon, non-canon universes are outside of it), Gwen’s “you want in?” line at the end, and the fact that it’s the only other way they could escalate the multiverse since we’ve already seen the Spider Society. There’s a chance Spider-Sonas could be included in BTSV, and it’d be thematically in line with everything so far. It’s a story about storytelling, and I think it ultimately has something to say about the nature of canon as opposed to fan creations and how audiences tend to get hung up on plot points instead enjoying stories for what they are. Just a theory.
one of the things that really bothered me that no one has talked about is the fact that miguel had video footage of other universes that he was watching on his monitor and that never gets brought up or explained
REJECT MODERNITY EMBRACE TRADITION
Nah movies still fun
@@cyberpunklover161 The movie renders your life and choices as meaningless, and says they’re only meaningful if you pretend they are
But don’t let that distract from the cool visuals, those are definitely more important
@@gianni206 Yeah pretty sure that's not what the movie is saying pretty sure you're just coming up with that on your own or something
@@cyberpunklover161 “or something” because you didn’t think too hard about what you were watching
@@gianni206 Oh I think i just don't overdang to the point of missing a point of a movie or coming up would something because i didn't like it
The based prequel defender at it again
What confuses me is that Phil and Lord claims this meta-narrative was in response to the reactions of the Miles in the comics.
Comic Miles was not a well written character. Miles current popularity would not exist without Spiderverse and the PS4/5 games.
And I would have thought Phil and Lord would have known these becuase there are intentional tweaks to his character in Spiderverse to make the character actually work, like his relationship to his Uncle. I hate they are ruining the Spiderverse storyline for the sake of defending a comic that doesn't deserve it.
Like what Anomaly INC said, they're *SUPER* insecure about the character & need(not just want, *need)* to tear-down the OG & all other versions in order to prop him up.
It's honestly really pathetic when you think about it.
It doesn't make sense to me how Miguel's daughters' universe got moved or collapsed or got erased because of his actions, but spot's actions doesn't do the same to Mile's world or earth 42.
You’re 100% right. This was a horrible movie.
The BIGGEST problem is , that Marvel is creating too many "EVENTS"!! This movie introduces "CANON EVENT" & SCARLETT WITCH is a"NEXXUS EVENT"! I thought since Marvel is on the MULTIVERSE SAGA, then ALL of these Universes should be included & they ALL should be the continuity!!
i like the idea of giving a middle finger to people on a mega level…if it’s done well. i’m still holding off on reviewing this movie until the “trilogy” is finished - i’m guessing they’re gonna force it into the mcu and make my stomach commit 40% for me
7:45 keep in mind the multiverse is infinite while a a few hundred spider people seems like a lot Gwen wasn’t kidding when said it was an exclusive club. There would millions if not billions of Spider people in the multiverse. It’s extremely likley there’s spide people Miguel tried to recruits who refused to go along with him. Yes Peter Parker is traditionally a genius but people with enough persuasion can amass an audience
They never act like Miles is the first to decline Miguel is pissed Miles is there at all. The fact Miguel calls him an anomaly and “not Spider-Man” shows Miguel never considered Miles even an option. The idea Miguel has a blacklist is supported by the fact early in the film Miguel says he’s not allowing Earth-19999 Peter aka Tom Holland
Josh Keaton said on Twitter he belives that Spectacular went along with the “canon event” idea because he was so broken after the death of his Captain Stacey and felt if his death was part of a grand plan it would make it worth something. It’s likley soemthing similar happened with the other spider people shown like how Insominac Peter had lost his Aunt May
Furthermore think about the Spider-People not included
616 (comics Peter), Tobey McGuire, Andrew Garfield, and Tom Holland all have enough experience with the multiverse and breaking fate to not buy what Miguel is selling if Miguel even approached them to begin with
Also I’d say one of the biggest factors is the lack of the Japanese Spider-Man. Despite all the deep cuts they chose to exclude one of the most popular and famous Spided-Man adaptations. Why would that be? (Continued)
It’s because that version of Spider-Man is SO different his very existence goes against the idea that there’s a specific template for Spiderman
You keep claiming that the film agrees with Miguel because of what his characters say and act like every single piece of info presented is incorrect when films have this thing called perspective and non verbal communication. What’s the first thing we see after Miles escapes? Gwen going home to find out her father is still alive and he quit the force. The placement of that scene is intentional as it proves that Miguel misinterpreted what caused the collapse of his universe and is projecting onto others.
It’s been confirmed mutliple times that this film and beyond originated from a single script that was forced to be split into two on account of length and budgetary concerns. The original title of this film was even “Across the Spiderverse Part 1” as seen the first trailer and some merchandise. Just because Sony changed the title later doenst change what this film is. The first half of a whole story. Would you call soemthing in Fellowship of the Ring a plot hole without reading the Two Towers or Return of the King
It’s fine to not have liked the film or just feel muliversal stories only work in smaller doses but it’s wrong to ignore the intentions of the filmmakers and paint a picture of incompetence when you literally only have of their script to work on
@@skibot9974You did not counter any of his points all your using is your head-canon.
Well many normies & gen z really do think that anyone can wear the mask & quoting Stan Lee out of context so they've won at making Spider-man brand akin to Green Lanterns. Nearly 6 decades huh, Spider-man aka Peter Parker had a good run.
"I broke bad the cannon"
"Then you Better Call Saul"
in both of your videos you havent mention gwen.. after she confronted her father/ the supposidly dying captain, he quits and that leads to the realization for gwen, because she thought her father had to die, that canon can be changed.. you can say gwen isnt peter parker, but she was convinced that she had to let her father die. and mind you miguel is also no peter parker.. so the movie showed us literally that the believed 'fate' can be changed. so they already showed us why miguels logic/algorithm is flawed - they just dont know it yet, but gwen does.. Sorry but you made two videos about this and never mentioned gwen, like one of the biggest characters of the film. a huge oversight on your part.
Have you seen what they did to my boy Peter in Insomniac's Spider-man 2 ?
oh no what did they do?
@@anomalyinc3239 So it goes without saying but spoiler warning :
It's full on "Miles is great, Peter sucks". And their way to do it is give Miles all of Peter's best qualities and ideologies while taking them away from Peter.
The strength to resist the symbiote and reject it himself that Peter shows in every other incarnation like in spectacular, TAS or Spider-man 3 isn't here and he gets completely controlled.
Only Miles can make him stop being controlled by beating him into submission.
It is later shown that Mary Jane successfully reject the symbiote herself after a boss fight against Peter where he keeps apologizing and telling MJ how much better she is than him (fight that he's loosing of course unlike Miles against him). And Miles just reject the symbiote immediatly when tempted.
They make peter apologize for things he either did right (priorizing saving people as Spider-man over getting a fucking job), didn't have control over (being manipulated by the symbiote and being a meanie to his friends) and let's be honest, pretty much existing. He just keeps saying sorry the whole last half of the game.
He then go on the whole game about how miles is so much greater and better than him.
Actual quote ingame of Peter talking to Miles : "Why would the city need me when it has you?"
And they make him choose to stop being Spider-man by "looking the other way" when he knows people need him when his spider alert goes off at the end.
Making Miles THE Spider-man.
I guess he no longer sees "not acting when he can" as a potential Uncle Ben situation happening again.
Oh and the final Boss fight against Venom is played as Miles. Because of course it is.
@@rabbox4513I will never forgive the writers for what they did to the sinister six in spiderman 2 game
Incoherent
Messy
The movie makes no sense!
Oooh, this is gonna be good. 😁
When I saw what they did to my boy Ben Reilly, I immediately knew what they were doing. I'm used to anything in the Clone Saga being used as the butt of the joke, but man, it still hurts how they just made him a mellow dramatic dude stuck in the past
When his entire damn arc was ABOUT not letting your past and who or what you are hold you down from being the best possible version of yourself and that despite everything you went through, you can be there for people.
The way I understand their "spiting" of the fans who dislike Miles is: Racists didn't want a black Spider-Man so Sony decided to shit in everyone's cereal and only the people who enjoy fecal matter as their breakfast suddenly come out in brigades. Us or them, if you don't support the corporation you're an evil being. I feel like we can rant and fight and theorize continually and that's want Sony wants. It's like an indie game, some small plot points are thrown to us and we have to make up the lore for them, for free.
‘Canon’ has completely lost its meaning
I almost choked on my soda in the theater when they said the term canon event. 😂
We’ll just have to wait until the third movie to see what happens.
Listen, I admit there are problems. But don’t use the crappy, “oh they didn’t plan this out” excuse. Because we know that isn’t the case. This film is better than no way home, because it planned out for both across the spiderverse and beyond the spiderverse. These writers have a lot of work ahead of them. But I have hope that it will turn out well, because they did plan it out after into the spiderverse.
Hey NOMZ
I thought i was the only one that gated this movie😂
How Miguel became Head Of the Spider society and Why he's in charge of the multiverse.....is Never explained!
Here’s the thing about Miguel being wrong about the canon. If the writers include in the next movie then you are wrong. Because they already had across the spiderverse and beyond the spiderverse planned before pre production. I immediately and I mean immediately saw the scene in beyond the spiderverse leaned on UA-cam. Everyone did, so you can’t say that the writers were treating this like Star Wars and writing one movie one after the other with no plan. THEY PLANNED THIS BEFORE ACROSS THE SPIDERVERSE EVEN BEGAN PRODUCTION!!
There is literally so much wrong with this comment I don't know where to start. 1st off, you can blatently tell they didn't plan everything out because if they did, they wouldn't have retconned Miguel so hard. At the end of ItSV, they explicitly set up that Miguel had never crossed the multiverse before but in AtSV he seems to have been doing it for years. This is an inconsistency that CANNOT happen if it were planned. Also, the BtSV leak is literally an action setpiece... and considering how a lot of movies these days are written with the action setpieces in mind, character consistency and lore consistency be damned, that's not a point in your favor. But more importantly: 2: even if it were planned out, that doesn't change the point made in the video because if they pull the "Miguel was wrong all along" card, they HAVE to plug up the holes this creates. It's literally either stick to what AtSV established and its multiverse shattering logic and ruin the stakes of BtSV because not one bit makes sense or render AtSV as meaningless and spend all of BtSV completely rewritting AtSV (because that movie spent the entire run time proving Miguel correct) making both movies completely unworthy of any viewers time and money.
@@chloemarlowe3817 I’m not denying that there aren’t inconsistencies and that the whole some people have to die thing is ridiculous. But Nomz himself said there is a small chance this all works out and that Miguel was wrong but that all the spider people would be messed up and yes across the spider verse seemingly sets up that Miguel is right.
But the thing is we don’t know what Miguel even did to mess up a universe and the spot was the one who messed up the Mumbatthan universe not Miles. And yes Nomz points all of these out, how Miguel acts like Miles was not supposed to be Spiderman. I’m simply saying it’s possible it could be explained in the third movie.
I have a request for the spider verse m
Can you point out all the things in these two movies as to why they are woke
Please do more revenge of the prequals
I can’t wait for the “responses” to this video like the last Spider-Man video you made where these brainlets pulled this “Miguel is actually wrong” as their only argument!
That was not the only argument I read the comments. Not saying he is wrong. Because a part of me is quite sure he has a point.
That's quite the strawman you constructed there. Also, yes Miguel being wrong destroys a lot of his points.
@@za-ir5niNo it doesn't it's only undermines the film making the entire conflict pointless
I wasn’t interested in the canon event thing to be honest. Just only watched it just to see if it was a great step up from the previous.
So from Miguel’s point of view he killed a world through his canon events and when Spider-Man Indias world is breaking down they say they weren’t always lucky meaning at bare minimum 3 worlds got destroyed by cannon events likely more so the Spider Society have good reason to not try to stop anything if 3+ worlds were destroyed
Yep.
Unrelated but I hope you do a video sometime responding to Dumb & Dumber’s latest waffle about Game of Thrones Season 8
ITSV is way better.
It was
i think this is all a lie thats going to be explained by the sequel xD
I am in fact a fan of you, but you didn't censor my name very well lol. Still easy to read.
Please tell me that "Revenge of the Prequels" is not a dead playlist.
All he did in those videos was cry that not everyone likes them and he only uses ad hominem rather talk about the arguments.
@@reeseexplains8935 Anomaly clearly said in multiple videos that he doesn't view prequels as masterpieces, he was just pointing out the flaws in everyone's logic as to why us, the audience watching them and these movies, we should think the prequels are terrible, which they are not. They have great elements in them, despite lacking in some areas.
@@nomnom2407 well he did call them names the whole time. All he did was ad hominem attacks and he never actually bothered explaining why they were wrong.
@@reeseexplains8935 yes he did, did you not watch these videos? Also, calling them names can just be angst, or just genuine anger.
@@nomnom2407no he didn’t. Anomaly inc is a crybaby. He just made ad hominems against the person.
Just dabbled in the multiversal or alternate realities theories in physics made me having a headache watching this type of story 😂
One person on X made a good point though. Because so far Miguel seems to be right. All evidence they have points to him being correct, but the evidence is circumstantial. Spider-Man, Woman, Ham, etc. are not perfect characters and in this case, follow a misguided leader because so far, he’s right
They should have called the avengers for help
Subscribed!
i like this movie but it's not great as everone says it is, i just like jokes, artstyle and action scenes, that's it.
for me it's like 4/10
subbed :)