very informative for owners, thanks for this series. if you aren't using 0w20, what are you using? 5w30 seems to be the recommendation I've seen online for track use. no mention of oil temps or coolers either, is stock cooling good enough for general HPDE 20-30 min sessions in your experience so far?
That's probably close, my engine uses 5w20 stock and 10w40 is recommended for performance, and 10w40 is stock for the C8 if I remember correctly. In general, thicker oil is superior unless it creates problems flowing through smaller tolerance bearings and tight channels. Thinner oil gets better mpg and that's mostly it.
You can run without a cooler, if you are running the proper weight based on ambient temp and engine oil temps. The major issue with 0w20 is that is purely an eco compliance oil at over 212F it thins out drastically also dropping oil pressures. Run a 5w-30 at a minimum, 10w30 will thin out less at higher temps and if you are in extreme heat then go to a 5w40 or 10w40. (Track related info)
The GR86 and BRZ (2nd gen) come with an OEM heat exchanger which does help over the 1st gen. But yeah, it's still not great as you can only exchange so much heat with a small W2O cooler.
Civic type R vs GR86 - obviously different in every way, but as a street only (albeit aggressively so) option purely for enjoyment, does the type R overcome/utilize its FWD layout well enough?
@@savagegeese both 0w-30 or 10W30s will experience the same grade reduction due to elevated temperatures. The difference with 10W30s is that it uses less Viscosity enhancers(VIIs) and will be more resistant to shear. If you are usually quality oil and already changing it frequently then any 30wt oil will perform great. Regardless if it's 0w,5W.. etc
There are some people who look for a car that's good to go out of the box and others who like to tinker with things. His opinion is coming from a modification hesitant position. And that's fair, but others aren't quite so hesitant. It's like complaining about road noise or rough ride on a civic type r instead of buying a civic SI which will arguably make a better daily driver. Which car did he buy again?
@@ebf1003 Mark's stance is of someone who's literally "been there, done that." If you watch Matt Farah's podcasts, he basically subscribes to the same philosophy...after hosting a show literally called "TUNED" on what was the //DRIVE network back in 2013. In Farah's own words, it's very hard to un-shitbox a car, which is what you risk when you introduce mods. Even mods that are done well have their own hang-ups, like Mark goes through in conversation with Jack. The difference with the Civic Type R is, it's the factory that's handled the mods for you. They literally know the car inside and out, so they have a better idea of what works (although they get it wrong sometimes, like with the first FK8Rs and their cooling issues). It gets delivered with all the performance potential and none of the shitbox-ness. It's got a full warranty as well.
There are some people who look for a car that's good to go out of the box and others who like to tinker with things. Marc's opinion is coming from a modification hesitant position. And that's fair, but others aren't quite so hesitant. It's like complaining about road noise or rough ride on a civic type r instead of buying a civic SI which will arguably make a better daily driver. Which car did he buy again?
@@ebf1003 It is a point to be brought up. Once you start modifying things like suspension and drive train (inc computers), you're pretty much committing to working on the car yourself. You can take it to a place for maintenance, but it's going to cost you significantly more.
@@mariusvanc Absolutely, and I believe the other side of that equation is equally worthy of being discussed . While some parts may relegate you to working on your own car or seeking a specialist, most of the mods performed on this car could be serviced by just about anybody. Volvo and polestar use the dfv dampers, lotus uses the ap brakes (with dust shields). The thought of using ten year old dampers on a 200tw tire seems a bit hyperbolic and if not, irresponsible. Overall, I feel it was a bit heavy handed in the negative opinion, but that's likely my own bias shining through.
Really glad to see more on “issues” and “maintenance requirements”. I’m sure the manufacturers dislike it mentioned, and probably try to blacklist you from future reviews, but it sure helps to know what the real cost of ownership is.
Any oem that would do this doesn’t deserve your hard earned money, regardless of who they are. An automaker that can’t take constructive criticism in this industry is not a brand you want in your garage.
Everyday Driver has been covering their ownership experience in extremely high detail since they bought it over 9 months ago and have done several videos. No one's blacklisting this outlet for the occasional update
I appreciate the street vs track nuances this channel gets into. Some channels live in a fantasy world of lap times, but that's not how 99.9% of these cars are actually owned and driven.
Marks honesty is what makes me watch and follow this channel. Not gonna get that kind of direct positive or negative criticism anywhere else on UA-cam and reviews
Just remember that the S2000 was a $40k car in the early 2000s. Not everyone could afford it. And it was a platform unto itself. Honda couldn’t pull from a parts bin like Subaru and Toyota can with this. My point is it was built with a single focus, and cost wasn’t so much an issue.
@@chuckcribbs3398 also, if you inflation adjust the S2000 to today it's mid/high $40's. What competes in that price range? Nissan Z, Supra 2.0L. Boxsters today start in the low $60's and inflate quickly with options. It's wrong to think of the S2000 as an expensive Japanese roadster when new. It's more correct to think of it as a budget Japanese Boxster. It was directly compared to the Boxster when new and won a lot of those comparisons, despite being almost $20K cheaper when new. I think of the S2000 along the same lines as the Nissan GT-R. There is no secret sauce to these cars. Any car from a competitor coming out today has gone through its full design cycle when you could go out and buy an S2000 or GT-R and dismantle it to see how it works. So why hasn't the S2000 been blatantly copied? Toyota outsources two of their three US sportscars, their only bespoke "sportscar" is a $100K Lexus. Nissan is not innovative at any price point. Hyundai is too interested in being cheap. At some point we have to wonder if the issue is the culture of these companies, rather than their capability. They can all afford to build an S2000 clone, the question is why aren't they.
@@jimmy-buffett pretty sure the answer is safety standards, Costs, and demand. Not enough demand to satisfy building a bespoke car that would cost more than 60k in todays money and be significantly heavier because of safety needs. If there is ever a new s2k, it will probably be a full electric car like the original Tesla roadster, something that can show Hondas commitment to fun yet environmentally friendly future proof enthusiast cars.
@@chuckcribbs3398 the S2000's original MSRP over its ten year life was $32k-$35k. But yeah, adjust for inflation and you're at $50k today. Comparing it another way, in 2000 the Miata's base MSRP was $20,500 while the S2000 was $32k. Assuming the same price ratio today, a new S2000 would cost $43k.
If there was any doubt that SG is the most informative and well-planned review channel on the internet, Ohlins working with you to develop their new product should put that doubt to rest. Great work again
Britt's driving is buttery smooth. And he actually understands the engineering concepts behind suspension setup parameters. That would make him a great driver to work with. Well done!
I have a 22 GR86 in Neptune blue and while I love the car, the dealership experience has been crap. I’ve had issues with the remote where the car does the recognize either of the two that came with the car. I was left stranded up a mountain road here in Colorado and when I took the car to the dealership all they did was say “it’s those crappy Subaru key fobs”. First of all when you partner with Subaru (Toyota owns 20 percent of Subaru) pointing fingers and passing the blame is past poor customer service. Then we get to the rtv issues and getting the oil pan dropped was almost impossible. Yes my oil pickup tube was completely blocked up by the way once they finally dropped the oil pan. Originally the dealership wanted $400 to drop oil pan and told me I was stupid for wanting to do so. That is until they saw the massive amounts of rtv in the oil pickup tube. The car itself is amazing but the dealership experience has destroyed any amount of joy I once had for the car.
...most (Toyota) dealership experiences are. And it hasn't changed for decades. Upsell and lie are the service bay moto. Scare customers into unnecessary mx. Sad you have to go up to Lexus to be treated like person and not a money bag 💰.
The best part of this story is that it seems to be a Toyota keyfob: looks the same as the fob for a Prius and makes the same chirp noises when you use the locking system :D :D :D
So in a nutshell, this is a very good dual purpose car if what you want is a daily that you can also use on the track occasionaly, but dont go to the extend of modifying it. The main thing for me is that this car in stock form is still a good car to hone your driving skills on the track with the aim to move (hopefully :)) to a full fledge track toy and then unleash your inner gorilla. Really glad Mark & Jack have the honest approach to tell it how it is, not trying to deter anyone from the GR86 experience but telling it just as it is. Thanks guys!
Why not modify? The car is clearly capable of being modified. HKS is getting 400+ PS reliably on the stock block and transmission. Another channel also found track pads and discs that actually don’t make brake noises.
This car with wheel and tires and some coils is beautiful on track without killimf your wallet. Youll learn everything to do and not do with it without paying a hefty price. Once you upgrade one day youll be a great driver on and off track because of it and youll have a fantastic time
@@kenchen704 They literally just explained in the video. It's too much of a pain in the ass for a DUAL PURPOSE car. If you want to go full track with it then yes, it's fine to modify, although you could probably get more performance out of just spending the money on a higher end car.
It's videos like these that help people better guage their decision making. Exploring the true cons and cost of ownership are points that not a lot of reviews like to touch on
I think it was informative to see this series delve into some of the major facets of "enthusiast" car ownership as an overview, particularly the pros/cons of modifying a new vehicle, driving engagement, and the essentials of day-to-day use. I think the sticking point, both for Mark and Jack, but also for a lot of the audience, is the difficulty of quantifying value for money when it comes to what is a very personal hobby. Though it was mentioned in the video, and has been prior, I feel like the statements of "You don't drive a spec-sheet/lap-time/HP rating" deserves highlighting, not only in regard to comparing different vehicles against one another, but also when it comes to modifications. As Jack's experience demonstrates, there can be trade-offs when it comes to going into a "build" with the intention of replacing factory components with "better" ones, because that improvement usually comes at the sacrifice of another aspect of its behaviour. The Street vs Track dichotomy is a fine line, and while everyone drives on the street, unless you have a dedicated track car, it's something that you're going to do far less often. Then the question becomes, can you afford to have a second vehicle purely as a toy? If you are able, then you can balance each tool to be better suited for its task; even then, from a daily driver to a "canyon" car is one thing, but from there to a purely track-driven car is another step again. But if you only have the means or space for a single mode of transportation, from a do-it-all perspective, it makes a lot more sense not to chase those 10/10ths that you'll feel 1 in a 100 times, at the detriment of your day-to-day commute, or backroad fun. Personally, I think you have to be doing pretty well to buy a new car whatsoever, let alone one that isn't primarily used to take you from A to B. The thing about the new car buying experience is that age and mileage factor into the driving dynamics infinitely more than the depreciation does. Would I have twice as much fun in a 50k AUD GR86 compared to a 25k NC MX-5? Arguable. But everyone has different tastes, different tolerances for the trial and error of modifying, different expectations of performance. I think people will generally be more satisfied just doing and driving what brings them joy, without feeling they're missing out by being a handful of seconds slower around their local track, or from 0-60, or whatever other meaningless metric we use to determine the value of automotive enjoyment.
Great video - love the honesty! While this video is obviously specific to the GR86, so much of it applies to cars in general. Modifications typically look great on paper and often they help on-track, but you have to realistically consider the on-street consequences. Also a great point about the long-term maintenance requirements of things like big brake kits and coil-overs. As I’ve gotten older I’ve come to realize that the design engineers typically get most of this right and there’s only a small handful of places to improve a modern performance car without substantial downsides on the street.
100% agree. I bought a 22' in Jan and immediately did Falken RT660 tires, Ferodo DS1.11 pads, crash bolts for neg front camber, and 5w-30 oil and track brake fluid and had a blast doing 4 track events over the summer. Great car, but dumping another $7k into it with BBK, Coilovers, etc. was tempting but ultimately I decided against it and glad I did (and surprised this video confirmed I am not alone in my thinking). Great content as always. BTW sold my GR to Carvana for $5k profit and just bought a faster car (C8)
Whew! It's a relief to know that gobs of RTV in the oil system _probably_ hasn't caused a total engine failure. Kinda like only having _a little bit_ of arsenic in your Wheaties every morning before you go for a run.
Most comprehensive long-term evaluation of the GR86 thus far and such a great resource for people still on the fence, or folks saving up to buy one. I also appreciate Mark's contrasting critical stance on modification and what it means for daily use or street ability, and the recap on PPF. If it were my money, I'd leave the car mostly stock, just with better heat capacity for the braking system and perhaps tires more appropriate for use. Thanks, gentlemen.
@@Mdgld Thats probably the big factor. Any track with long straight, I’d think the Supra having 170 wheel horsepower more and like 220 lb feet torque more might help. And its not like the Supra handles poorly or brakes poorly.
Do the same mods to the other cars and they're gone. Comparing modded to stock is.. meh. Especially considering the price for the mods, it closes that huge price gap.
Why bother with wheels and tires. Those stock Michelin 18" are fantastic tires for the street. The only thing that does suck on these cars is the turn signal switch.
@@DragonKnightX12 Yes, treacherous in the wet once the temps go below 40f.I live in Canada, so replaced them in November with winter tires. But you have to be pretty careful in Spring and Fall, especially in the rain.
You need to keep in mind Mark is pretty anti-mod and doesn't spend a ton of time on track. He's also okay with FWD cars, whereas a lot of enthusiasts aren't. He definitely is more of a stock car kind of person.
@@kuladeeluxe I must of missed this one. Well that comes down to tires I got the BRZ Limited trim that came with the Michelin Pilot Sport 4s, instead of the Primacy "drift" tires. Despite being summer tires they actually handle pretty well in below 40 weather, even as low as 32 they work pretty great. In the rain the only thing to worry about is hitting the big puddles, but it's super easy to recover from hydro planning. The car is just soo glued to the ground with good tires. That being said I might be trading up to a WRX before the tires wear out, but if I don't I'm probably gonna get the All season versions of the Pilot Sport 4.
You made it into a fun car on track, and it was already fun on street. Like Mark said we start chasing the car to make it the perfect set up, we spend money on these things because we love driving. I wouldn’t say it’s a waste of money, it’s your love for the car. I’ll always modify cars, maybe not as heavy as others. Great job, I hope you keep it for another year, or IF you want to trade it in for the GR Corolla go for it Jack.
Between this video and Jack’s coverage of the Artura, I’m picking up on the fact that ‘GODSEND’ is one of Jack’s favorite words. Count is currently at 3.
I think the bigger picture with this car, is that you can go so many different directions with it. So, you can keep it stock: make it a track car, a drift car, or even a drag car depending on how you want to set it up. The entry level price for a small rwd manual car is the key. I think that's its best selling point.
Fun run: IL RT113 between Braidwood and Kankakee. Approximately 80 of the stretch follows the river. A wonderful road to risk a ticket. I used to drive it all the time and enjoyed the mix of tight series of curves, sweepers, and straights with visibility. There are deer everywhere in Illinois, so having a trustworthy co-driver concentrating on wildlife will only add to driver enjoyment. Trade roles for the return run.
Would've been interesting to see how the undercoatings and coatings on suspension components and subframe have held up with the salt over the ownership so far.
Good video. I followed your original series with your BRZ modifications about a decade ago, and made many of the same modifications to my BRZ. Brakes, tires, supercharger, etc.. They all made it faster on the track (laps dropped from about 1:39 to 1:32 on my local track in Portland), but the resulting vehicle was not a good daily at all. Weird noises, less than ideal throttle responses, etc.. In hindsight I should have put the $15K I spent on mods into the stock market. And of course, as we all know, when it came time to sell the car I not only lost the money I spent, but the car sold for less than an un-modded car. I knew that going in, but the point is you are literally pissing that money away.
Man i so excited i just bought a gr86 2024 brand new in sliver and yes the rtv is still making me scared. However it doesnt seem to be as big of an issue so im still going to enjoy the car next week when i pick it up.
I was seriously considering buying a set of Ohlins once they released, but Mark has convinced me out of it. I remember the headache of dealing with coilovers before, and it's not something I want to deal with again. New wheels and tires will suffice for my modifications.
Rather than lowering the car, you could easily get a better-riding and handling setup with a custom damper or Bilstein-based coilover setup from Fatcat Motorsports. They do not require the Ohlins-like maintenance or the complimentary modifications (alignment issues).
I would highly recommend the Ohlins. What they did to both of my M3's is night and day. If you want something more track focused then get MCS as they are a massive step up (in price too). Mark has an opinion and it's just that, an opinion. I have put over 70k miles on R&T coils, many of them being on shitty NYC roads. The rebuilds are not needed nearly as often as Ohlins suggests.
@@andrewrossnagel9433 While I agree that Ohlins are life changing, and everyone should try it out as an entryway to real dampers, everyone's needs are different. For me messing with alignment and damping settings is part of the fun, but I understand people who want a set and forget setup. In the end, there is a ton to be exploited on the stock dampers, and there is really no need to upgrade until you can articulate what behaviors of the stock setup are holding you back.
Might want to go to hi temp brake fluid if you drive in the Rockies a lot. (Yes, not necessary if you know how to drive in the mountains, but there are an amazing number of people who don't - flatlander speaking). Modding your car is a lot like choosing HiFi audio equipment. 95% of the time you won't be using anywhere near 100+ watts of power from the amp, which is a good thing since distortion goes up and it can sound harsh. Similarly, 95% of the time you won't be using anywhere near the limit of your engine and suspension performance, and it won't be a pleasant or comfortable experience. Exhilarating? Yes! Comfortable? Not so much. (2 hours driving hard will probably wear you out.)
One thing that wasn't mentioned: the ND Miata. You put these same parts into into an inarguably more advanced chasis and you'll have the sports car to rule them all. No it won't set any track records and no it is not practical in any way, but if you just want a sports car as a 2nd or 3rd car you seriously can't beat it.
Yeah once the hype machine dies down the Miata is going the be the ultimate winner. More sophisticated chassis, better shifter, better steering, way better throttle response, the engine feels way better to rev out, 400-500lbs lighter, and 10+ better mpg. People are scared off by the body roll which is easily fixed with sways and springs for like $500. I really can’t see any advantage of the 86 unless you can’t have a second car and need a daily/fun compromise car.
@@TT92348 you’re misunderstanding how major of a point it is though. What’s the point in dailying boring city traffic when you have a fun sports car locked in your garage
@@j.valera3944 I was talking about the average city and hwy numbers he quoted. I just can't understand how you get 23hwy out of that thing when pickups can do that now
@@juggsauce My guess is that it’s because auto makers have been employing restrictive measures that “cook the books” to bring the mpg down. I’m talking about the horrible auto start/stop features that turn the vehicle off when idle, and cutting power from the engine using CVTs or other automatics such as never allowing it to rev very high, rev hang, etc. From I understand the GR86 has none of that garbage.
I got my GR86 Premium (auto) exactly a month ago. I love it so far, I also live in the Chicagoland area and I bought a full set of wheels for winter and it's been a great driving experience. No problems yet.
@@autophenom32648 I'm not sure to be honest, I've never modded cars before. This is my first sports car. I'm really excited about the prospect of modding it though!
Daily drove an s2000 for 11 years. Great car but it was the ultimate blue balls machine. By the time you hit the sweet spot, you were already going too fast.
At 28:04 ish when u said u were going to dump this thing (the gr86) it made me kinda sad. I know u guys are going to get new cars and work on those, but rather than just ....
I was so eager for this, I love it!! I've got a GR86 this year and i'm planning to track the heck out of it. I'm running 0w20 in Canada, so most if the time it's relatively cold (15-20 celsius early in the tracking season). Will do more reasearch but might go for something thicker for the summer
I have loved this car from the FRS days. I purchased a 2013 Brz that I loved right up until the valve spring broke at 52k miles. Subaru told me to pound sand. Then after I sold my Brz. They recalled them for wait for it. Valve springs. At 52k my otherwise immaculate Brz undercarriage had far more rust than my 12 year old Jeep. The car in this video is starting to rust. I had a 2000 Outback that went through 3 head gaskets in 210 k miles. Subaru stated there were no problems with the car. I had an 1995 5 speed wagon ( I loved that car). That refused to start one morning. It then caught fire and burned to the ground. I also new 4 other people that had their Subaru wagons burn to the Ground. Only the wagons? The Subaru dealer network for the most part has been excellent up until about 2010 or so something changed. Overall my dealer experience has been excellent. That is why I picked the Brz over the FRS. My Toyota dealer experience has been horrible. Subaru is dead to me. The 86 has a crappy Subaru Engine. The driving dynamics of the car especially with track or high performance tires . Was a blast to drive.
99 manual 911 cab driver here: BRZ thus confirmed yet again as serious contender if one had to have just one car, as that back seat, like 911, is helpful. Track or autocross 1x/yr at best vs 6x canyon runs vs 200x/yr daily during non traffic. Thx fellas. GSF acquired per this channel and endorsements by other YT experts
GR86 owner and I have been preaching the same. I am 36 so the old end of owners of these cars but I have been preaching wheels, tires, pads, fluids and a few personal aesthetic mods. Sorry to say Subaru and Toyota put way more into R&D than a lot of aftermarket companies.
Really appreciate your detailed coverage of the car. I'm going on 9 months with my AUDM BRZ and as summer rolls in here in South Australia I definitely reckon I'll swap in some 5w30 - the heat gets real nasty here!
17:45 Mark hit the nail right on the head. The engine continues to be the part of this car that lets it down. It does its job, but there's no character to it. There's just a ton of rattles and grinding noises. No wonder toyota is toying with the idea of putting the GR Corolla engine in this.
That is certainly not my motor. Seems very smooth with fantastic throttle response and revs out nicely. My E36 M3 felt like a tractor motor by comparison.
While I appreciate the discussion of and comparisons to, the S2000, I am personally more interested in how the driving and ownership experience compares to the current crop of track cars that you can daily.
Thanks for all the information you provide. As an owner of a gr86 your vidéo really help me to plan how i will mod and maintain my car! Have a great day :)
I meant to make it primarily as a comparison to the s2k. With timing it was nearly impossible it also wasnt all that eventful because with basically just wheels and tires the 86 was faster than marks ohlins, bbk s2000
I am running same exact suspension set up for my GR! Raceseng front plates Ohlins DFV Gen 1 5/5kg springs. Then I went to 7/7kg spring and it feels way better!
RTV stuck in the oil pickup is amateur hour, but with a 30K+ car from two well-known Japanese brands. One of the thing they teach apprentices resealing oil pans or timing covers is never to use too much RTV for this very reason. This could definitely cause oil starvation if it gets severe enough.
@@savagegeesebetween the RTV, the 0w-20, the need for an oil cooler, and the generic g-force related starvation issues, this engine seems WAY too finicky for a performance car to me. I'm kind of worried now. I've gotten the oil temps up to almost 250 on the street on 0W-20. Does this mean I have no more engine?
@@404nobrakes Honestly I would not even give it a second thought unless you track it. You can send a used oil sample to blackstone at some point to check on any wear materials.
@@savagegeese - not that anyone here needs to hear from me, but 2nd on sending oil to Blackstone. When I had the commute from hell (California 101-405) I would send oil to Blackstone from time to time. The reports were very positive even at 7,000+ mile change intervals with Castrol GTX in my '92 Maxima SE 5-speed. I sometimes miss that car.
Wonderful vid. Not just a track battle vid, but really looking at the car as a daily that does weekend track duty, and where to find the balance between. I like that the lap times justify the high priced mods - but that Mark, a track junkie, bemoaned how those mods were like to live on the street.
I don't know where he is getting those mpgs because I have dailies an 86 manual for 6 months now with frequent B road trips almost every other day and I get combined 26 lifetime with 28-33 mpg on highway cruising at 75-80mph. I just ticked over 12k miles.
I followed this build w/ my BRZ but on a slightly tighter budget. Same wheels but went with RE-71 RS , Cusco Street Zero A, Whiteline LCAs & F/R endlinks. -1.5F / -1.9R . Stock pads for now (will upgrade soon), I only do canyons & autocross & Feels amazing~
Question. For somene who is trying to find the fun weekend car that they want to keep for a long time, are the CTR/Golf R/supra/cayman worth the delta over the GR86/MX-5? I'm trying to sell my MK7.5 GTI to by a car that will hopefully be the car that I can enjoy long after regulations make these cars impossible to produce but obviously there's diminishing returns when I start eying higher end cars. Thank you for the great content you put out.
Correcting the factory RTV issues seems like such a no brainer for anyone with this engine. Drop the pan, clean the pickup, reinstall pan properly. Why wouldn't you? There shouldn't be anything stuck in the pickup screen like that, especially on a brand new engine.
I daily drive and track with Willwood 6 pot fronts and 4 pot rears. By far the best upgrade I've done. Unlike what's stated in the video, I don't suffer from any brake squeal, just a lot more brake dust. Absolutely no problem running them daily as even before warming up, it will still out brake almost anything else on the street.
I've been averaging around 26 mpg on mine, dailying it on a mix of suburban streets and freeways in the Midwest. Absolutely love it so far, I don't think you can get a more connected, raw experience under $50k on a new car while still being able to use it as a reasonably practical daily. The Miata is a touch more fun at normal speeds because of the lighter weight and open top, but it feels sketchier at the limit while the 86/BRZ feel friendlier/more progressive and more intuitive through the chassis. The Miata definitely has much better throttle calibration, and better gearshift quality (although 86 gearshift is still great), but I think the 86 steering has more feedback and feel.
Thats okay. Nothing an LS engine wont fix in the future :D We just got our 2023 BRZ and once the warranty runs out and the engine goes, it will be time for a swap. They are great looking cars and light, but need more torque for sure.
@@Beer_Dad1975 The reliability concerns seem to me to have been blown out of proportion. As for the involvement the engine provides, it definitely isn't as special as an S2000, but an S2000 was also a far more expensive car that did not have to contend with far stricter modern emissions regs. Name me a new car apart from the Toyobarus that you can buy for $30k, with naturally aspirated internal combustion-only drivetrain, that revs to 7500 rpm, and makes nearly 100 hp/liter. It's just the Miata, which while excellent, is almost a toy that you can't use as an only vehicle for most use cases.
Thanks for all the great videos over 2022 and all the best for 2023 guys, much appreciated. One car you don’t seem to have ever reviewed is the Lotus Elise 2005-2010 either NA or with SC. These were pretty popular in the US and is clearly very raw and focused. It is an alternative to the GR86 or S2000.
I mean, this is stating the obvious, but those mpg numbers are shocking from a 4-cylinder engine in a car that weighs less than 3000 lbs, in 2022. How have they even managed to do that?
i have a 22 BRZ and im averaging about 26. The car is geared aggressively for acceleration. If you live somewhere with lower speed limits or just go about 70-75 you will see much better mileage.
As someone in the Chicagoland area looking at getting one of these, these videos have been super helpful. I'm only going to use it on the street, so I would leave it stock and just get snow tires for winter. Seems I don't have to worry much about the reliability/oil
It'll never happen because the weight distribution would be all screwy. If they do a new MR2 I could definitely see the 3 cyl mounted in the back of that thing.
I'm surprised about the mileage numbers. I feel like those are WRX numbers, where you can get up to 30ish mpg on the highway. Given that it's heavier, the AWD penalty, and the turbo, I would've expected the na fa to be a little better
He’s way off on highway miles. If he’s averaging 23-24 on the highway and 18 in the city how is his combined 22.8mpg including track? I just figured out how to reset my log for a trip lol, did about 30 minutes on the highway, cruising between 75-85 and I averaged 30mpg. My combined is 23mpg but I’m mostly city driving
@@moldyrefrigerator One car did blow up spectacularly from RTV, wonder how many more are being covered up. If this is acceptable specs, I'm not trusting Subaru's quality control.
@@psewgobind No it hasn’t. Prove it, like the video states, all claims have been very questionable at best. In a wet sump, boxer engine configuration there is a point of lateral load at which the oil tends to pool up in one head or another. On heavy track driving it is way more likely for engine failure that’s “attributed to RTV” to have more to do with the oiling system being insufficient for said cornering load. The RTV pickup and system were clearly designed to tolerate a pretty substantial amount of debris before any significant blockage would occur. I stand by my original statement.
@@rhodycars6058 I also do the same thing in central/southern IL! I work in two locations, one is 2 miles from home, the other is 28 miles. Looking for something fun that can get me to work in all seasons. The Golf R is really hitting the sweet spot for fun/daily car for my taste.
@@spacetoast7783 It probably fits fine, but the whole car is designed around having a flat 4 way down and as far back as possible. What is the point of screwing that all up?
@@timbrown9731 It doesn't just drop in. You have to line up the output shaft with the transmission. You may even need a new transmission. You have to change the suspension because the center of gravity changed. It's not simple to swap engines.
I owned a 2006 S2000 because reviewers were saying it's a sports car you can daily drive, but like Mark said, it's a terrible daily driver. I only put about 15k miles on mine over three years and then sold it.
I’ve been daily driving my 2006 s2000 for the last almost 6 years now and I owned it for 13 , the s2000 can be daily driven in city as well. If you want totally luxury and babying then yes the s2000 is not a good daily driver.
A four-cylinder lightened sports car in this modern era has no business getting under 35 mpg when driven conservatively. My 2008 civic SI gets around 30mpg combined, so over 14 years later this should be a non-issue
@@matts6551 shitty Subaru motors that are 30 years old man. Toyota HAS engines that make more power/torque and get better MPG. Take the 2AR for example that with mods can do 300hp. If Toyota is so set in using old AF engines, there's plenty. They claim it's center of gravity and balance. Okay bud, it can be done with a Honda k20 no problem.
@@Barbwire710 Makes sense considering the corolla. Also considering that this car uses 11 liters of fuel and if these stories about oil pickup and lean oil is true there is no way that 3 cylnder isnt in the future for the 86
very informative for owners, thanks for this series. if you aren't using 0w20, what are you using? 5w30 seems to be the recommendation I've seen online for track use. no mention of oil temps or coolers either, is stock cooling good enough for general HPDE 20-30 min sessions in your experience so far?
That's probably close, my engine uses 5w20 stock and 10w40 is recommended for performance, and 10w40 is stock for the C8 if I remember correctly.
In general, thicker oil is superior unless it creates problems flowing through smaller tolerance bearings and tight channels. Thinner oil gets better mpg and that's mostly it.
You can run without a cooler, if you are running the proper weight based on ambient temp and engine oil temps. The major issue with 0w20 is that is purely an eco compliance oil at over 212F it thins out drastically also dropping oil pressures. Run a 5w-30 at a minimum, 10w30 will thin out less at higher temps and if you are in extreme heat then go to a 5w40 or 10w40. (Track related info)
The GR86 and BRZ (2nd gen) come with an OEM heat exchanger which does help over the 1st gen. But yeah, it's still not great as you can only exchange so much heat with a small W2O cooler.
Civic type R vs GR86 - obviously different in every way, but as a street only (albeit aggressively so) option purely for enjoyment, does the type R overcome/utilize its FWD layout well enough?
@@savagegeese both 0w-30 or 10W30s will experience the same grade reduction due to elevated temperatures. The difference with 10W30s is that it uses less Viscosity enhancers(VIIs) and will be more resistant to shear. If you are usually quality oil and already changing it frequently then any 30wt oil will perform great. Regardless if it's 0w,5W.. etc
I love that Mark was brutally honest about the modifications.
There are some people who look for a car that's good to go out of the box and others who like to tinker with things. His opinion is coming from a modification hesitant position. And that's fair, but others aren't quite so hesitant. It's like complaining about road noise or rough ride on a civic type r instead of buying a civic SI which will arguably make a better daily driver. Which car did he buy again?
@@ebf1003 The CRT has an adjustable suspension out of the box right?
@@ebf1003 Mark's stance is of someone who's literally "been there, done that." If you watch Matt Farah's podcasts, he basically subscribes to the same philosophy...after hosting a show literally called "TUNED" on what was the //DRIVE network back in 2013. In Farah's own words, it's very hard to un-shitbox a car, which is what you risk when you introduce mods.
Even mods that are done well have their own hang-ups, like Mark goes through in conversation with Jack.
The difference with the Civic Type R is, it's the factory that's handled the mods for you. They literally know the car inside and out, so they have a better idea of what works (although they get it wrong sometimes, like with the first FK8Rs and their cooling issues). It gets delivered with all the performance potential and none of the shitbox-ness. It's got a full warranty as well.
@@TypeVertigo I didn't get the impression he had issues with the mods - just too expensive and too much hassle getting it dialed in.
@@wiegraf9009 Yes, three way adjustable.
Those conversations between Marc and Jack are just making this channel. It’s amazing.
There are some people who look for a car that's good to go out of the box and others who like to tinker with things. Marc's opinion is coming from a modification hesitant position. And that's fair, but others aren't quite so hesitant. It's like complaining about road noise or rough ride on a civic type r instead of buying a civic SI which will arguably make a better daily driver. Which car did he buy again?
@@ebf1003 It is a point to be brought up. Once you start modifying things like suspension and drive train (inc computers), you're pretty much committing to working on the car yourself. You can take it to a place for maintenance, but it's going to cost you significantly more.
@@mariusvanc Absolutely, and I believe the other side of that equation is equally worthy of being discussed . While some parts may relegate you to working on your own car or seeking a specialist, most of the mods performed on this car could be serviced by just about anybody. Volvo and polestar use the dfv dampers, lotus uses the ap brakes (with dust shields). The thought of using ten year old dampers on a 200tw tire seems a bit hyperbolic and if not, irresponsible. Overall, I feel it was a bit heavy handed in the negative opinion, but that's likely my own bias shining through.
Really glad to see more on “issues” and “maintenance requirements”. I’m sure the manufacturers dislike it mentioned, and probably try to blacklist you from future reviews, but it sure helps to know what the real cost of ownership is.
OEMs don't blacklist you for sharing a negative experience. Just look at Nick Murray.
@@ATStone Chris Harris and Ferrari would like a word with you. Also Tesla has been known to play this game
@@ATStone of course there’s no “blacklist” . Honest reviewers just inexplicably can’t get invitations and review vehicles. 😂
Any oem that would do this doesn’t deserve your hard earned money, regardless of who they are. An automaker that can’t take constructive criticism in this industry is not a brand you want in your garage.
Everyday Driver has been covering their ownership experience in extremely high detail since they bought it over 9 months ago and have done several videos. No one's blacklisting this outlet for the occasional update
I appreciate the street vs track nuances this channel gets into. Some channels live in a fantasy world of lap times, but that's not how 99.9% of these cars are actually owned and driven.
Marks honesty is what makes me watch and follow this channel. Not gonna get that kind of direct positive or negative criticism anywhere else on UA-cam and reviews
In life in general it seems to be extremely frowned upon to give any type of negative criticism with all the toxic positivity these days.
The fact that the s2000 is still relevant today is crazy.
Just remember that the S2000 was a $40k car in the early 2000s. Not everyone could afford it. And it was a platform unto itself. Honda couldn’t pull from a parts bin like Subaru and Toyota can with this. My point is it was built with a single focus, and cost wasn’t so much an issue.
@@chuckcribbs3398 also, if you inflation adjust the S2000 to today it's mid/high $40's. What competes in that price range? Nissan Z, Supra 2.0L. Boxsters today start in the low $60's and inflate quickly with options.
It's wrong to think of the S2000 as an expensive Japanese roadster when new. It's more correct to think of it as a budget Japanese Boxster. It was directly compared to the Boxster when new and won a lot of those comparisons, despite being almost $20K cheaper when new.
I think of the S2000 along the same lines as the Nissan GT-R. There is no secret sauce to these cars. Any car from a competitor coming out today has gone through its full design cycle when you could go out and buy an S2000 or GT-R and dismantle it to see how it works. So why hasn't the S2000 been blatantly copied? Toyota outsources two of their three US sportscars, their only bespoke "sportscar" is a $100K Lexus. Nissan is not innovative at any price point. Hyundai is too interested in being cheap.
At some point we have to wonder if the issue is the culture of these companies, rather than their capability. They can all afford to build an S2000 clone, the question is why aren't they.
@@chuckcribbs3398 I thought the S2000 was more around $32k brand new in early 2000s
@@jimmy-buffett pretty sure the answer is safety standards, Costs, and demand. Not enough demand to satisfy building a bespoke car that would cost more than 60k in todays money and be significantly heavier because of safety needs. If there is ever a new s2k, it will probably be a full electric car like the original Tesla roadster, something that can show Hondas commitment to fun yet environmentally friendly future proof enthusiast cars.
@@chuckcribbs3398 the S2000's original MSRP over its ten year life was $32k-$35k. But yeah, adjust for inflation and you're at $50k today.
Comparing it another way, in 2000 the Miata's base MSRP was $20,500 while the S2000 was $32k. Assuming the same price ratio today, a new S2000 would cost $43k.
If there was any doubt that SG is the most informative and well-planned review channel on the internet, Ohlins working with you to develop their new product should put that doubt to rest. Great work again
Britt's driving is buttery smooth. And he actually understands the engineering concepts behind suspension setup parameters. That would make him a great driver to work with. Well done!
If there was ever a car review channel deserving a million followers, this is the one.
I have a 22 GR86 in Neptune blue and while I love the car, the dealership experience has been crap.
I’ve had issues with the remote where the car does the recognize either of the two that came with the car. I was left stranded up a mountain road here in Colorado and when I took the car to the dealership all they did was say “it’s those crappy Subaru key fobs”. First of all when you partner with Subaru (Toyota owns 20 percent of Subaru) pointing fingers and passing the blame is past poor customer service.
Then we get to the rtv issues and getting the oil pan dropped was almost impossible. Yes my oil pickup tube was completely blocked up by the way once they finally dropped the oil pan. Originally the dealership wanted $400 to drop oil pan and told me I was stupid for wanting to do so. That is until they saw the massive amounts of rtv in the oil pickup tube.
The car itself is amazing but the dealership experience has destroyed any amount of joy I once had for the car.
...most (Toyota) dealership experiences are. And it hasn't changed for decades. Upsell and lie are the service bay moto. Scare customers into unnecessary mx. Sad you have to go up to Lexus to be treated like person and not a money bag 💰.
@@K03sport AGREED!!!
dealerships make money from finance and service not customer service.
@@jonasbaine3538 true
The best part of this story is that it seems to be a Toyota keyfob: looks the same as the fob for a Prius and makes the same chirp noises when you use the locking system :D :D :D
So in a nutshell, this is a very good dual purpose car if what you want is a daily that you can also use on the track occasionaly, but dont go to the extend of modifying it.
The main thing for me is that this car in stock form is still a good car to hone your driving skills on the track with the aim to move (hopefully :)) to a full fledge track toy and then unleash your inner gorilla.
Really glad Mark & Jack have the honest approach to tell it how it is, not trying to deter anyone from the GR86 experience but telling it just as it is.
Thanks guys!
Agree. I would say all this car needs if you want to tweak it is wheels and you're set
Why not modify? The car is clearly capable of being modified. HKS is getting 400+ PS reliably on the stock block and transmission. Another channel also found track pads and discs that actually don’t make brake noises.
This car with wheel and tires and some coils is beautiful on track without killimf your wallet. Youll learn everything to do and not do with it without paying a hefty price. Once you upgrade one day youll be a great driver on and off track because of it and youll have a fantastic time
@@kenchen704 They literally just explained in the video. It's too much of a pain in the ass for a DUAL PURPOSE car. If you want to go full track with it then yes, it's fine to modify, although you could probably get more performance out of just spending the money on a higher end car.
Keep the car in stock form and modify the driver ;)
It's videos like these that help people better guage their decision making. Exploring the true cons and cost of ownership are points that not a lot of reviews like to touch on
My 86 was hit and totaled earlier this year. This video really made me miss my car. Love u guys keep up the great videos
I think it was informative to see this series delve into some of the major facets of "enthusiast" car ownership as an overview, particularly the pros/cons of modifying a new vehicle, driving engagement, and the essentials of day-to-day use. I think the sticking point, both for Mark and Jack, but also for a lot of the audience, is the difficulty of quantifying value for money when it comes to what is a very personal hobby.
Though it was mentioned in the video, and has been prior, I feel like the statements of "You don't drive a spec-sheet/lap-time/HP rating" deserves highlighting, not only in regard to comparing different vehicles against one another, but also when it comes to modifications. As Jack's experience demonstrates, there can be trade-offs when it comes to going into a "build" with the intention of replacing factory components with "better" ones, because that improvement usually comes at the sacrifice of another aspect of its behaviour. The Street vs Track dichotomy is a fine line, and while everyone drives on the street, unless you have a dedicated track car, it's something that you're going to do far less often. Then the question becomes, can you afford to have a second vehicle purely as a toy? If you are able, then you can balance each tool to be better suited for its task; even then, from a daily driver to a "canyon" car is one thing, but from there to a purely track-driven car is another step again. But if you only have the means or space for a single mode of transportation, from a do-it-all perspective, it makes a lot more sense not to chase those 10/10ths that you'll feel 1 in a 100 times, at the detriment of your day-to-day commute, or backroad fun.
Personally, I think you have to be doing pretty well to buy a new car whatsoever, let alone one that isn't primarily used to take you from A to B. The thing about the new car buying experience is that age and mileage factor into the driving dynamics infinitely more than the depreciation does. Would I have twice as much fun in a 50k AUD GR86 compared to a 25k NC MX-5? Arguable. But everyone has different tastes, different tolerances for the trial and error of modifying, different expectations of performance. I think people will generally be more satisfied just doing and driving what brings them joy, without feeling they're missing out by being a handful of seconds slower around their local track, or from 0-60, or whatever other meaningless metric we use to determine the value of automotive enjoyment.
Great video - love the honesty! While this video is obviously specific to the GR86, so much of it applies to cars in general. Modifications typically look great on paper and often they help on-track, but you have to realistically consider the on-street consequences. Also a great point about the long-term maintenance requirements of things like big brake kits and coil-overs.
As I’ve gotten older I’ve come to realize that the design engineers typically get most of this right and there’s only a small handful of places to improve a modern performance car without substantial downsides on the street.
100% agree. I bought a 22' in Jan and immediately did Falken RT660 tires, Ferodo DS1.11 pads, crash bolts for neg front camber, and 5w-30 oil and track brake fluid and had a blast doing 4 track events over the summer. Great car, but dumping another $7k into it with BBK, Coilovers, etc. was tempting but ultimately I decided against it and glad I did (and surprised this video confirmed I am not alone in my thinking). Great content as always. BTW sold my GR to Carvana for $5k profit and just bought a faster car (C8)
That had to be a culture shock going from the 86 to a C8.. that's a crazy good upgrade!
Whew! It's a relief to know that gobs of RTV in the oil system _probably_ hasn't caused a total engine failure. Kinda like only having _a little bit_ of arsenic in your Wheaties every morning before you go for a run.
Most comprehensive long-term evaluation of the GR86 thus far and such a great resource for people still on the fence, or folks saving up to buy one. I also appreciate Mark's contrasting critical stance on modification and what it means for daily use or street ability, and the recap on PPF. If it were my money, I'd leave the car mostly stock, just with better heat capacity for the braking system and perhaps tires more appropriate for use. Thanks, gentlemen.
I'm so mad it's getting discontinued for EU in 2024
Absolutely wild to see the times. Dampers, brakes, fluids and this is car neck and neck with Nissan Z and Supra.
This car vs a Supra?! ummm.
I don’t know what autobahn looks like but that might be a factor. Would expect a tighter track to minimize how much power can affect lap times
Don't forget the driver upgrade haha
@@Mdgld Thats probably the big factor. Any track with long straight, I’d think the Supra having 170 wheel horsepower more and like 220 lb feet torque more might help. And its not like the Supra handles poorly or brakes poorly.
Do the same mods to the other cars and they're gone. Comparing modded to stock is.. meh. Especially considering the price for the mods, it closes that huge price gap.
Glad to hear "absolute waste of money". For $29k, the car rips. Have fun with wheels/tires and that's it.
Why bother with wheels and tires. Those stock Michelin 18" are fantastic tires for the street. The only thing that does suck on these cars is the turn signal switch.
@@kuladeeluxe They were perfect for DD in the South, except the last two days when had the temps drop below the 30s.
@@DragonKnightX12 Yes, treacherous in the wet once the temps go below 40f.I live in Canada, so replaced them in November with winter tires. But you have to be pretty careful in Spring and Fall, especially in the rain.
You need to keep in mind Mark is pretty anti-mod and doesn't spend a ton of time on track. He's also okay with FWD cars, whereas a lot of enthusiasts aren't. He definitely is more of a stock car kind of person.
@@kuladeeluxe I must of missed this one. Well that comes down to tires I got the BRZ Limited trim that came with the Michelin Pilot Sport 4s, instead of the Primacy "drift" tires. Despite being summer tires they actually handle pretty well in below 40 weather, even as low as 32 they work pretty great.
In the rain the only thing to worry about is hitting the big puddles, but it's super easy to recover from hydro planning. The car is just soo glued to the ground with good tires.
That being said I might be trading up to a WRX before the tires wear out, but if I don't I'm probably gonna get the All season versions of the Pilot Sport 4.
You made it into a fun car on track, and it was already fun on street. Like Mark said we start chasing the car to make it the perfect set up, we spend money on these things because we love driving. I wouldn’t say it’s a waste of money, it’s your love for the car.
I’ll always modify cars, maybe not as heavy as others. Great job, I hope you keep it for another year, or IF you want to trade it in for the GR Corolla go for it Jack.
Between this video and Jack’s coverage of the Artura, I’m picking up on the fact that ‘GODSEND’ is one of Jack’s favorite words. Count is currently at 3.
Holy crap that guy is FAST! I know he's an accredited driver and all but the actual clips of him driving are INSANE!
I think the bigger picture with this car, is that you can go so many different directions with it. So, you can keep it stock: make it a track car, a drift car, or even a drag car depending on how you want to set it up. The entry level price for a small rwd manual car is the key. I think that's its best selling point.
Fun run: IL RT113 between Braidwood and Kankakee. Approximately 80 of the stretch follows the river. A wonderful road to risk a ticket. I used to drive it all the time and enjoyed the mix of tight series of curves, sweepers, and straights with visibility. There are deer everywhere in Illinois, so having a trustworthy co-driver concentrating on wildlife will only add to driver enjoyment. Trade roles for the return run.
As a gt86 owner there are still many points I found useful for when I consider doing what mods on her as a daily. Great video.
Thank you for asking questions we all have and giving thorough and honest answers. THANK YOU for your time and effort given.
Thank you for the honest answer Mark
Watch how little Britt moves his hands in the lapping video. SO smooth too. No wonder the guy wins races. Awesome to watch.
Would've been interesting to see how the undercoatings and coatings on suspension components and subframe have held up with the salt over the ownership so far.
14:23 - Absolute based take. Respect points awarded.
Jack is a godsend.
Good video. I followed your original series with your BRZ modifications about a decade ago, and made many of the same modifications to my BRZ. Brakes, tires, supercharger, etc..
They all made it faster on the track (laps dropped from about 1:39 to 1:32 on my local track in Portland), but the resulting vehicle was not a good daily at all. Weird noises, less than ideal throttle responses, etc.. In hindsight I should have put the $15K I spent on mods into the stock market. And of course, as we all know, when it came time to sell the car I not only lost the money I spent, but the car sold for less than an un-modded car. I knew that going in, but the point is you are literally pissing that money away.
Keep OEM parts. Return to stock before sale. Sell aftermarket parts.
Enjoying this series very much! Still on my list of possibilities for next car. Thanks for your effort on this.
Man i so excited i just bought a gr86 2024 brand new in sliver and yes the rtv is still making me scared. However it doesnt seem to be as big of an issue so im still going to enjoy the car next week when i pick it up.
I was seriously considering buying a set of Ohlins once they released, but Mark has convinced me out of it. I remember the headache of dealing with coilovers before, and it's not something I want to deal with again.
New wheels and tires will suffice for my modifications.
Rather than lowering the car, you could easily get a better-riding and handling setup with a custom damper or Bilstein-based coilover setup from Fatcat Motorsports. They do not require the Ohlins-like maintenance or the complimentary modifications (alignment issues).
I would highly recommend the Ohlins. What they did to both of my M3's is night and day. If you want something more track focused then get MCS as they are a massive step up (in price too). Mark has an opinion and it's just that, an opinion. I have put over 70k miles on R&T coils, many of them being on shitty NYC roads. The rebuilds are not needed nearly as often as Ohlins suggests.
@@andrewrossnagel9433 While I agree that Ohlins are life changing, and everyone should try it out as an entryway to real dampers, everyone's needs are different. For me messing with alignment and damping settings is part of the fun, but I understand people who want a set and forget setup. In the end, there is a ton to be exploited on the stock dampers, and there is really no need to upgrade until you can articulate what behaviors of the stock setup are holding you back.
What headache/issues come with coilovers?
Might want to go to hi temp brake fluid if you drive in the Rockies a lot. (Yes, not necessary if you know how to drive in the mountains, but there are an amazing number of people who don't - flatlander speaking). Modding your car is a lot like choosing HiFi audio equipment. 95% of the time you won't be using anywhere near 100+ watts of power from the amp, which is a good thing since distortion goes up and it can sound harsh. Similarly, 95% of the time you won't be using anywhere near the limit of your engine and suspension performance, and it won't be a pleasant or comfortable experience. Exhilarating? Yes! Comfortable? Not so much. (2 hours driving hard will probably wear you out.)
1st row for this 1. Dying to know what a real enthusiast is doing to and with a real enthusiast car!
One thing that wasn't mentioned: the ND Miata. You put these same parts into into an inarguably more advanced chasis and you'll have the sports car to rule them all. No it won't set any track records and no it is not practical in any way, but if you just want a sports car as a 2nd or 3rd car you seriously can't beat it.
Yeah once the hype machine dies down the Miata is going the be the ultimate winner. More sophisticated chassis, better shifter, better steering, way better throttle response, the engine feels way better to rev out, 400-500lbs lighter, and 10+ better mpg. People are scared off by the body roll which is easily fixed with sways and springs for like $500. I really can’t see any advantage of the 86 unless you can’t have a second car and need a daily/fun compromise car.
@@TT92348 the 86 is usable every day unlike a Miata
@@shiikon2193 That was my last sentence. That’s the only reason I could see getting an 86 is if you had to have one car for daily/fun.
@@TT92348 I think that reason is a strong one for buyers though. The guys i know with 86s all drive them to work, the store, whatever.
@@TT92348 you’re misunderstanding how major of a point it is though. What’s the point in dailying boring city traffic when you have a fun sports car locked in your garage
My son is a mechanic and rebuilds Subaru engines. 5w 30 all the time. Also installs larger oil pan.
Personally, fuel consumption isn't a big deal when driving a sports car, but with MPG like that it better be significantly faster than the ND2.
Yeah man. My half ton pickup does better than that. There is really no excuse.
That was including track time and these guys have lead feet. Lol.
@@j.valera3944 I was talking about the average city and hwy numbers he quoted. I just can't understand how you get 23hwy out of that thing when pickups can do that now
@@juggsauce My guess is that it’s because auto makers have been employing restrictive measures that “cook the books” to bring the mpg down. I’m talking about the horrible auto start/stop features that turn the vehicle off when idle, and cutting power from the engine using CVTs or other automatics such as never allowing it to rev very high, rev hang, etc. From I understand the GR86 has none of that garbage.
@@juggsauce Ahhh.Yeah You're right. My v8 pickup does almost that with a big load of hay in the back.
I got my GR86 Premium (auto) exactly a month ago. I love it so far, I also live in the Chicagoland area and I bought a full set of wheels for winter and it's been a great driving experience. No problems yet.
I live in almost the same area. Out of curiosity what mods, if any, are you planning to do, considering the shared climate we live in.
@@autophenom32648 I'm not sure to be honest, I've never modded cars before. This is my first sports car. I'm really excited about the prospect of modding it though!
Daily drove an s2000 for 11 years. Great car but it was the ultimate blue balls machine. By the time you hit the sweet spot, you were already going too fast.
That was my impression of it. Pedestrian unless you drove it like you’d stolen it. Not my idea of sustainably interesting
This video could not have come at a more perfect time for me. Thank you!
You're so welcome!
At 28:04 ish when u said u were going to dump this thing (the gr86) it made me kinda sad. I know u guys are going to get new cars and work on those, but rather than just ....
I was so eager for this, I love it!! I've got a GR86 this year and i'm planning to track the heck out of it. I'm running 0w20 in Canada, so most if the time it's relatively cold (15-20 celsius early in the tracking season). Will do more reasearch but might go for something thicker for the summer
I have loved this car from the FRS days. I purchased a 2013 Brz that I loved right up until the valve spring broke at 52k miles. Subaru told me to pound sand. Then after I sold my Brz. They recalled them for wait for it. Valve springs. At 52k my otherwise immaculate Brz undercarriage had far more rust than my 12 year old Jeep. The car in this video is starting to rust.
I had a 2000 Outback that went through 3 head gaskets in 210 k miles. Subaru stated there were no problems with the car.
I had an 1995 5 speed wagon ( I loved that car). That refused to start one morning. It then caught fire and burned to the ground. I also new 4 other people that had their Subaru wagons burn to the Ground. Only the wagons?
The Subaru dealer network for the most part has been excellent up until about 2010 or so something changed. Overall my dealer experience has been excellent. That is why I picked the Brz over the FRS. My Toyota dealer experience has been horrible.
Subaru is dead to me. The 86 has a crappy Subaru Engine.
The driving dynamics of the car especially with track or high performance tires . Was a blast to drive.
99 manual 911 cab driver here: BRZ thus confirmed yet again as serious contender if one had to have just one car, as that back seat, like 911, is helpful. Track or autocross 1x/yr at best vs 6x canyon runs vs 200x/yr daily during non traffic. Thx fellas. GSF acquired per this channel and endorsements by other YT experts
This is a really helpful series as I am seriously considering buying a new GR86 next year.
lotus elise final edition
evora
@@kalmmonke5037 I'd love an Evora but that's a steep jump in price that I just can't afford/justify.
Same
Agreed completely on talking points about the S2000. :)
Beautiful sports color.
GR86 owner and I have been preaching the same. I am 36 so the old end of owners of these cars but I have been preaching wheels, tires, pads, fluids and a few personal aesthetic mods. Sorry to say Subaru and Toyota put way more into R&D than a lot of aftermarket companies.
Need more of this. I would love if you could compare more older cars vs newer on track.
Really appreciate your detailed coverage of the car. I'm going on 9 months with my AUDM BRZ and as summer rolls in here in South Australia I definitely reckon I'll swap in some 5w30 - the heat gets real nasty here!
I would love to see Jack replace this GR86 for a Toyota Corolla GR. The Corolla GR hatch has 300 hp and AWD.
seems like Jack didn't really like the GR Corolla. He mentioned it on his instagram
This video is so informative for gr86 owners. I like the conclusion for the mods in street use.
17:45 Mark hit the nail right on the head. The engine continues to be the part of this car that lets it down. It does its job, but there's no character to it. There's just a ton of rattles and grinding noises. No wonder toyota is toying with the idea of putting the GR Corolla engine in this.
That is certainly not my motor. Seems very smooth with fantastic throttle response and revs out nicely. My E36 M3 felt like a tractor motor by comparison.
I think it’s a blessing you guys are around chicago land. Now i know where to go for wraps lol
Thanks for sharing this journey.
This channel honesty its what makes it great,its detailed reviewa,no sponsor unicorn life 💩
It would be great if you had an RX8 to see if the rumors about a GREAT track car is valid! Amazing videos and also amazing reviews!!! Well done 👍!!!!
Makes me enjoy my 2008 S2000 even more…..when new cars are compared to a 15 year old car
Glad my ND2 Cup car does not have any issues.
While I appreciate the discussion of and comparisons to, the S2000, I am personally more interested in how the driving and ownership experience compares to the current crop of track cars that you can daily.
Thanks for all the information you provide. As an owner of a gr86 your vidéo really help me to plan how i will mod and maintain my car! Have a great day :)
“You can do the same shit on the stock car.” 😂 that’s good to know since I’m really tight on cash right now by just paying for one of these cars.
Such a beautiful series, this gr86 is pampered! The stance is perfect!
Jack, in the Street Drive segment, you mention the series didn't pan out like you planned. What did you mean? Thank you for this great series.
I meant to make it primarily as a comparison to the s2k. With timing it was nearly impossible it also wasnt all that eventful because with basically just wheels and tires the 86 was faster than marks ohlins, bbk s2000
I am running same exact suspension set up for my GR!
Raceseng front plates
Ohlins DFV Gen 1 5/5kg springs.
Then I went to 7/7kg spring and it feels way better!
RTV stuck in the oil pickup is amateur hour, but with a 30K+ car from two well-known Japanese brands. One of the thing they teach apprentices resealing oil pans or timing covers is never to use too much RTV for this very reason. This could definitely cause oil starvation if it gets severe enough.
If I was talking about this instead of Jack I would have been a lot more abrasive about this issue. How they ship engines this way is beyond me.
@@savagegeese - It’s frankly unacceptable - regardless of price point. A brand new car should not have this issue.
@@savagegeesebetween the RTV, the 0w-20, the need for an oil cooler, and the generic g-force related starvation issues, this engine seems WAY too finicky for a performance car to me. I'm kind of worried now. I've gotten the oil temps up to almost 250 on the street on 0W-20. Does this mean I have no more engine?
@@404nobrakes Honestly I would not even give it a second thought unless you track it. You can send a used oil sample to blackstone at some point to check on any wear materials.
@@savagegeese - not that anyone here needs to hear from me, but 2nd on sending oil to Blackstone. When I had the commute from hell (California 101-405) I would send oil to Blackstone from time to time. The reports were very positive even at 7,000+ mile change intervals with Castrol GTX in my '92 Maxima SE 5-speed. I sometimes miss that car.
I swear this channel is the most well spoken and informative when it comes to cars
Second only to TJ Hunt
My dream of dreams is to get a blue BRZ and have it armored up by Chicago Auto Pros.
A lot of great info in here. Great job on this.
Jack: what do you think about the mods
Mark: big waste of money
lmao
Wonderful vid. Not just a track battle vid, but really looking at the car as a daily that does weekend track duty, and where to find the balance between. I like that the lap times justify the high priced mods - but that Mark, a track junkie, bemoaned how those mods were like to live on the street.
cant get mommy and wife in one girl. Each has pros and cons. Decide what you want first and look up fir options
I want to daily one of these bad but that average MPG is a big oof. I used to daily my Charger and got 20-22 in mixed driving.
I don't know where he is getting those mpgs because I have dailies an 86 manual for 6 months now with frequent B road trips almost every other day and I get combined 26 lifetime with 28-33 mpg on highway cruising at 75-80mph. I just ticked over 12k miles.
@@Scrubbrush2193 Is yours a 1st or 2nd gen?
@@Scrubbrush2193 Did your right foot not come with the Axe Murderer DLC?
I followed this build w/ my BRZ but on a slightly tighter budget. Same wheels but went with RE-71 RS , Cusco Street Zero A, Whiteline LCAs & F/R endlinks. -1.5F / -1.9R . Stock pads for now (will upgrade soon), I only do canyons & autocross & Feels amazing~
Question. For somene who is trying to find the fun weekend car that they want to keep for a long time, are the CTR/Golf R/supra/cayman worth the delta over the GR86/MX-5? I'm trying to sell my MK7.5 GTI to by a car that will hopefully be the car that I can enjoy long after regulations make these cars impossible to produce but obviously there's diminishing returns when I start eying higher end cars. Thank you for the great content you put out.
Production quality is so good
Correcting the factory RTV issues seems like such a no brainer for anyone with this engine. Drop the pan, clean the pickup, reinstall pan properly. Why wouldn't you? There shouldn't be anything stuck in the pickup screen like that, especially on a brand new engine.
I daily drive and track with Willwood 6 pot fronts and 4 pot rears. By far the best upgrade I've done. Unlike what's stated in the video, I don't suffer from any brake squeal, just a lot more brake dust. Absolutely no problem running them daily as even before warming up, it will still out brake almost anything else on the street.
I've been averaging around 26 mpg on mine, dailying it on a mix of suburban streets and freeways in the Midwest. Absolutely love it so far, I don't think you can get a more connected, raw experience under $50k on a new car while still being able to use it as a reasonably practical daily.
The Miata is a touch more fun at normal speeds because of the lighter weight and open top, but it feels sketchier at the limit while the 86/BRZ feel friendlier/more progressive and more intuitive through the chassis. The Miata definitely has much better throttle calibration, and better gearshift quality (although 86 gearshift is still great), but I think the 86 steering has more feedback and feel.
That engine though, it's a total failure for me. To me the engine is the first thing I look for - un-involving, un-reliable engine - hard pass.
I have been averaging 29.5MPG. I am tracking all my data. I don't drive hard or 80MPH like some people tho.
@@Beer_Dad1975 Same for me, s2k all day long. Why buy a sports car with a so so engine?
Thats okay. Nothing an LS engine wont fix in the future :D We just got our 2023 BRZ and once the warranty runs out and the engine goes, it will be time for a swap. They are great looking cars and light, but need more torque for sure.
@@Beer_Dad1975 The reliability concerns seem to me to have been blown out of proportion. As for the involvement the engine provides, it definitely isn't as special as an S2000, but an S2000 was also a far more expensive car that did not have to contend with far stricter modern emissions regs.
Name me a new car apart from the Toyobarus that you can buy for $30k, with naturally aspirated internal combustion-only drivetrain, that revs to 7500 rpm, and makes nearly 100 hp/liter. It's just the Miata, which while excellent, is almost a toy that you can't use as an only vehicle for most use cases.
Looks fantastic. Perfect track stance and it's quick. Gosh I need to pick one up
Good to see you guys using proper quality parts and information for your build (unlike Donut media)
Donut was literally founded to be a meme channel. Their entire brand is posting videos aimed at those unencumbered with a high IQ.
Thanks for all the great videos over 2022 and all the best for 2023 guys, much appreciated. One car you don’t seem to have ever reviewed is the Lotus Elise 2005-2010 either NA or with SC. These were pretty popular in the US and is clearly very raw and focused. It is an alternative to the GR86 or S2000.
It is interesting. I’d love to know Mark’s opinion as both an s2000 and Elise owner. He had an exige briefly earlier in life
I mean, this is stating the obvious, but those mpg numbers are shocking from a 4-cylinder engine in a car that weighs less than 3000 lbs, in 2022. How have they even managed to do that?
Bad final ratio
Yeah really surprising. I would have expected 25-28 at least.
Not with Jack driving it…🤣🤣🤣
i have a 22 BRZ and im averaging about 26. The car is geared aggressively for acceleration. If you live somewhere with lower speed limits or just go about 70-75 you will see much better mileage.
@@GAMERIC5 was gonna mention this.. cruising at 80-85 is generally unnecessary. I think topher was getting 28-29 going 70-72
As someone in the Chicagoland area looking at getting one of these, these videos have been super helpful. I'm only going to use it on the street, so I would leave it stock and just get snow tires for winter. Seems I don't have to worry much about the reliability/oil
If the rumors of the 3 cyl from the gr Rolla coming to this at somepoint that is an interesting.
It'll never happen because the weight distribution would be all screwy. If they do a new MR2 I could definitely see the 3 cyl mounted in the back of that thing.
@@wiegraf9009 Nah. The boxer is heavy. It would likely improve the weight distribution. The 86 is front biased already.
amazing content as always! i also feel like an S1 or S2 elise should definitely be in the best 4 cylinder sports car discussion too, they’re magic
Until you need to do any maintenance on them whatsoever.
@@Erafune How hard could it be ?
Lol mid engine tho, no the same class. Also like 1000lb lighter
I'm surprised about the mileage numbers. I feel like those are WRX numbers, where you can get up to 30ish mpg on the highway. Given that it's heavier, the AWD penalty, and the turbo, I would've expected the na fa to be a little better
He’s way off on highway miles. If he’s averaging 23-24 on the highway and 18 in the city how is his combined 22.8mpg including track? I just figured out how to reset my log for a trip lol, did about 30 minutes on the highway, cruising between 75-85 and I averaged 30mpg. My combined is 23mpg but I’m mostly city driving
if MPG is a concern, get a prius
@@rayj33 I mean, there’s an in between there well man. There are plenty of sporty cars that get 30mpg+ easily
MPG got wrecked by the engine upgrade in the GR86. It's more torquey etc. but yeah it burns more fuel.
Great series to follow as a GR86 owner! Def loving mine so far. Thank you for thisss
Why do I get the feeling that Mark is a scary boss to work for lol. I can imagine him flipping out on you if you make a mistake on a project.
For those concerned about RTV issue, look up RTV inspection port by Ansix, a mod where you can open a plug and visually inspect it.
Who cares, the RTV itself is not doing anything to the car. Leave it alone. Just drive the car, and stop overblowing a non-issue.
@@moldyrefrigerator One car did blow up spectacularly from RTV, wonder how many more are being covered up. If this is acceptable specs, I'm not trusting Subaru's quality control.
@@psewgobind No it hasn’t. Prove it, like the video states, all claims have been very questionable at best. In a wet sump, boxer engine configuration there is a point of lateral load at which the oil tends to pool up in one head or another. On heavy track driving it is way more likely for engine failure that’s “attributed to RTV” to have more to do with the oiling system being insufficient for said cornering load. The RTV pickup and system were clearly designed to tolerate a pretty substantial amount of debris before any significant blockage would occur. I stand by my original statement.
The seats are torture for long drives, no lumbar and too much side bolstering. The seat back also forces your shoulders to hunch.
Agreed. I did a 10 hour road trip in my GR86 and that was rough on my lower back
The old car had the same issues with the seats. Disappointed to hear that they didn’t address that this time around.
Love this!! Seriously considering daily one of these and good to know this stuff!
Do it man. Awesome fun car. I live on more rural backroads and my 24mile commute is fun every day.
@@rhodycars6058 I also do the same thing in central/southern IL! I work in two locations, one is 2 miles from home, the other is 28 miles. Looking for something fun that can get me to work in all seasons. The Golf R is really hitting the sweet spot for fun/daily car for my taste.
Rumor is the GR motor fits this platform well...
It would be shocking to see an I-3 fit into the same constraints as an H-4.
@@spacetoast7783 It probably fits fine, but the whole car is designed around having a flat 4 way down and as far back as possible. What is the point of screwing that all up?
@@wiegraf9009 Toyota has a proven and ready turbo engine, getting away from the flat 4 if wanted to do so...
@@timbrown9731 It doesn't just drop in. You have to line up the output shaft with the transmission. You may even need a new transmission. You have to change the suspension because the center of gravity changed. It's not simple to swap engines.
@@spacetoast7783 Not really. People have already K swapped the previous gen.
Mark kept it real AF. “This sucks…” 😂 Soul crushing to Jack tho, dang …
I owned a 2006 S2000 because reviewers were saying it's a sports car you can daily drive, but like Mark said, it's a terrible daily driver. I only put about 15k miles on mine over three years and then sold it.
I’ve been daily driving my 2006 s2000 for the last almost 6 years now and I owned it for 13 , the s2000 can be daily driven in city as well. If you want totally luxury and babying then yes the s2000 is not a good daily driver.
Thanks for the update on your ownership.
22MPG. OUCH. Crazy that the Supra gets way more.
A four-cylinder lightened sports car in this modern era has no business getting under 35 mpg when driven conservatively. My 2008 civic SI gets around 30mpg combined, so over 14 years later this should be a non-issue
@@matts6551 shitty Subaru motors that are 30 years old man. Toyota HAS engines that make more power/torque and get better MPG. Take the 2AR for example that with mods can do 300hp. If Toyota is so set in using old AF engines, there's plenty. They claim it's center of gravity and balance. Okay bud, it can be done with a Honda k20 no problem.
@@singular9 there are rumors from bestcar that the final generation of GR86/BRZ will use the 3 cylinder GR Yaris motor.
@@Barbwire710 Makes sense considering the corolla. Also considering that this car uses 11 liters of fuel and if these stories about oil pickup and lean oil is true there is no way that 3 cylnder isnt in the future for the 86
very aggressive final gear ratio. similar to the first gen.