Identifying Toxic Church Cultures: Interview With Scot McKnight
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2022
- Identifying Toxic Church Cultures: Interview With Scot McKnight
Tragically, in recent years, Christians have gotten used to revelations of abuses of many kinds in our most respected churches―from Willow Creek to Harvest, from Southern Baptist pastors to Sovereign Grace churches.
One of the best books I have read this year is "A Church Called Tov" by Scot Mcknight, which addresses this very issue. The sad truth is that churches of all shapes and sizes are susceptible to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse. Abuses occur most frequently when Christians neglect to create a culture that resists abuse and promotes healing, safety, and spiritual growth.
How do we keep these devastating events from repeating themselves? We need a map to get us from where we are today to where we ought to be as the body of Christ. Today Scott will be giving us steps to identify toxic cultures, but also how to build healthy church culture where the body of Christ can flourish.
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Having experienced spiritual abuse (toxic church culture) after calling out the pastor on how he had treated a member and her son, this needs to be addressed way more.
All of this toxic church culture has its roots in the very shallow discipleship of our American Christianity. We tolerate emotional immaturity among our leaders because we value talent and gifts instead of the true measure of spiritual maturity, love for God as shown thru love for others.
"Churches are masters of the Sunday morning service and the Sunday morning service is a performance on a platform" 16:30 Enough said right there.
I love the core concept of "Create a culture in your church where those who lean in to abuses of power would feel uncomfortable and like they would be discovered."
Church abuse has turned me into a different person. It’s sad.
I'm so sorry. Please consider that a relationship with church members in a congregation can be like a dating relationship -- to the degrees of trust, vulnerability, control, acceptance, etc.
In other words, you may be hurt by one -- but that doesn't mean there is not a healthy, loving partner/spouse/church out there to love you and nurture you and take care of you.
@@IndianaJoe0321 thank you, yes that would be nice.
The problem is Church hierarchies. As soon as you put a government together and money is involved it becomes a business. They expect you to order what’s on the menu. If you don’t, you have to get with the program or leave. It’s not a family. They say it’s a family. It’s not.
The problem isn't in Church hierarchies. The problem lies in the fact that most churches refuses to follow God's model of church government. Ofc money has to be involved, because God's Work cannot be done without it, especially on a large scale. The Bible shows that Jesus' ministry was funded by monetary donations(Luk. 8:1-3).
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 I know but people screw all of that up so much of the time. Many of us are burnt out on it. House churches or smaller churches seem to be better to me. Big churches and big business with lots of money involved is a recipe for problems. They often turn into fund raising orgs. I don’t trust it.
@@theeternalsbeliever1779 and the “Biblical” model for church government isn’t a set in stone clear as day sort of thing. There’s a lot of wiggle room. I do like the plurality of elders and deacons model though. The earlier models.
This.
28:26
Trail of broken relationships as an indicator of spiritual abuse; that’s fire.
This is very quickly becoming my favorite podcast
I was supervised by a Christian supervisor or so-called Christian and she was such a narcissist, but I didn’t really see all of it until I got out of the organization and she ended up firing me. I can see now how insecure she really was, narcissist lack empathy that’s one of the biggest Symptoms. When you were describing about that Scott, it reminded me of her to the T. Thank you for exposing spiritual abuse and helping people to realize it’s OK to talk about it. There is so much fear to talk about trauma in the church for all kinds of wrong reasons and people think it’s the right reasons- that will probably be a good book!
When you have a problem in a church, all you can do is leave.
This was so spot on it was scary
So good thank you 🙏
I have actually gone through this recently in a church. This has been some great info. I’m also learning how to move forward from what happened. Thanks for the teaching.
Yep. It’s the inner circle…and you’re not in it! Been there, am there right now.
I've had the opportunity to actually live with the leadership of my church for an extended period of time, and it made me realize that Pastors are HUMAN. In all our weakness and ugliness, and all the beauty of being redeemed imagers of God. Ministry is raw.
Mr. McKnights closing thoughts and takeaway as being a revolution in the church that will focus on the transformation of our minds and character into the image of Christ had me shouting YESSS! The current ways of measuring a church's success is completely mistaken. As Michael R. and Mr McKnight brought forth.
Praise God for all of your courage.
Wow this is just so solid. Thank you for covering these topics.
Can you do an episode on the extent of the authority of elders and pastors? At what point does exercising biblical authority and church discipline cross over into authoritarian behavior and abuse? For example do elders have the authority to tell people who to marry or what job they should take if they have a strong opinion about it, or only if there’s a clear biblical basis?
I too would love some more resources on what healthy church discipline looks like. I feel like there's a demand for it in the community now as we continue to see God strip those who have been abusing his household for years.
No they do not have that authority
@@ncarter7999 I agree, but I don't really have a good understanding of why that's the case. Maybe it's just coming from my own cultural background rather than from scripture. I've also encountered some elders who seem to think they do have this kind of authority and I don't see how to argue against that from scripture because it doesn't seem to address the topic in detail. Maybe that's because there's not a one-size-fits-all structure and we need to lean on the guidance of the Spirit, or maybe I'm missing something. Anyway, I think it would be great to hear some discussion about this!
Matthew 20: 25-27
But Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave.
Authority in the church is not the same thing as authority in the secular world. If someone is operating as an elder or a leader, they are called to serve God's people with humility and love. They're primary objective should be to point people to God and help them to grow in greater relationship with him. They are not supposed to be a petty tyrant that wants to boss people around for their own enjoyment. Their authority is a very serious responsibility and if they abuse that authority they will suffer harsh judgment for it.
Matthew 18:6
But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
This verse primarily applies to leading innocent people into sin but I still think it applies to anyone that abuses God's children.
Highly recommend Frank Viola's Reimagining Church....Turns the whole modern practice and paradigm on its head.
This is so real. So so good.
I've listened to a lot of interviews with Scot McKnight and this was by far the most practical in my opinion. I appreciate the commitment to the local church and the mild pushback that the interviewers demonstrated. This was really helpful.
Lots of wisdom nuggets in this episode! Definitely interested in reading Dr. McKnight’s book. “A trail of life” should be the fruit of a church. “A revolution of character formation!” “Viewing people as Christ views them, as essential members of the body” Amen!!!
I came out of an abusive church, and these descriptions are spot on.
Your guest is refreshing to hear.
I can completely relate to this experience. It is horrible.
I spent about twenty years in what could be considered a cult (high demand religion), but didn't realize it until the week before I left.
May the tov be with you, and all of us💜🙏🏻
What's tov
Yikes. A little too close to home with the church I belonged to for 65 years. 😬😳
Thank you!
Churches have become business. It’s why I left the last one.
This was a great interview with Scot McKnight and I've heard new things about narcissism and church vs. the law involvement. Keep up the amazing work with amazing interviews!
This is terrifying
This is so good!
It's not just sexual abuse around women, but domestic abuse is also something that doesn't get addressed or corrected and the wives do not get help!
Gaslighting is normally along the lines of calling people stupid who believe differently than you... "you'd have to be an idiot to believe that"
Just catching up with this one. Demonizing opponents is a really stupid way to do things. Even the world has a phrase, "you learn more from your enemies than you do your friends."
I feel the hurt of everyone here. I am so sorry. I too have received this toxic
I basically agree with the good guest. My hesitation would include the very foundation of the church which is totally based on the cross, and the complete truth of His Word upon which we know of His finished work on the cruel cross, in the first place. There are no special gifts in his sight, and we all stand very naked before His cross. Blessings
Greetings from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
Love your ministry
Please 🙏 do an episode on the Lakeland revival and the commissioning service by all the leading apostles and the subsequent fall of the whole movement. Please 🙏
Keep up your great work.
Andrew
Great info and insight. I have gone through several of these toxic scenarios in a previous church, including Matthew 18 used against me when I brought to the elders and deacons only that a deacon was living with his fiancé. I was told I was wrong for not going to this man first. I was basically thrown under the bus. They were okay after speaking to the couple as it was a financial decision. I asked, "Won't God take care of them, if they are faithful to Him in whatever we He wills?Is He not trustworthy?" Didn't mean anything. I was chastised by the head Deacon and Pastor.
The content in this discussion, opens us up to deep consideration and reflection. I hope with any past experience that surfaces with listening to this topic doesn't hinder the freedom one has had since a past bad experience. That said, this topic should be covered in all congregations, to allow for reflection, possibly repentance and humility. Remember the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep and the loving shepherd who is not a hiring does the same. If a leader is always positioniing himself/herself as above others, they're not under Christ who is the head.
Thank you thank you thank you for doing these podcasts. You guys are so consistently on point, whether for the chosen subjects or the discussions or conclusions. I’ve been trying to work through the difficult decision of leaving the church I’ve been attending for 20 years, so this podcast is very timely in providing real references and standards by which to make judgments.
Man’s flesh/heart is wicked above all things….no matter one’s title.
9:50 I was said I left the church Because I didn't get ministry. I was shocked and annoyed on how immature this was. No I didn't leave Because of that. I didn't even want to get back in ministry. I seen signs of toxic church culture. So this narrative in the end changed my shock to of course. What did I expect. There is a very toxic system behind the scenes if you don't conform to them.
Wow, I just stepped down from the worship team. I'm on a narcissistic scale! Dang...sorry Lord. This episode was very helpful! 🙏
Heck, no bodies perfect:)
There is no such thing as a "narcissism scale." Perhaps he meant to verbally articulate "degrees of pride?"
@@IndianaJoe0321 Maybe, could be, or maybe not. Either way, the video was helpful in recognizing it. Whatever phrase you want to call it.
Self-awareness is brave and honest. Repent. God will forgive you. This is growth.
@@kimberlymortenson9513 preaching to the choir.
How would describe a church that teaches that God only loves a few people, creates some for Hell, created evil to show His glory and, well, everything is already predetermined and man is unable to choose Him?
Really great podcast.
Can I trust that pastor? No. Unfortunately, you can’t “submit” to the teaching of a pastor because too many are narcissistic. You can listen to them and learn, but authority is God not a man.
I wonder when the Body will start exercising discenment and recognizing false teachers. We are not supposed to entertain them or their teachings, even and especially when they tickle our ears.
I probably need to read this book. But I don’t know if I can. Hits old wounds of what happened to my husband in a church. And myself. He was the third pastor pushed out. Silenced, controlled narrative, was a congregation vote/lead church but we were forced out by “elders” and the mediator was magically given a vote who was the lead pastors son… however I’m glad I’m not there and have been in two very tove congregations even though one even went through a really bad split.
Those old wounds need to be dealt with ... to a point where you both no longer feel the pain of the experience. A support group? Christian counseling? Therapy? You both will need to pray & decide ... but you won't experience true healing until those past hurts have been thoroughly dealt with.
Leaders who see themselves as leaders lose contact with the theme of Christlike-ness. Wow. What a dangerous and subtle trap.
I recently attended a church with a toxic culture. I would warn people against pastors who do not have a system of checks and balances (I.e. elders to advise and hold the pastor accountable). Without accountability, ruthless ambition, veiled threats to the congregation if pastor is deposed (threats by the pastor at the pulpit), rampant unchecked sin of members “on-board” with pastor’s personal goals/agendas, attempts at dishonest financial gain (encouraging unfair “voting practices” regarding community service grants), pejorative references to women - “typical wives” comments sneered from the pulpit…even when wives are obedient and do the pastor’s bidding, on and on with abuse of power, culminating in name-calling of ex-members as “demonic”. Awful stuff. And people stay and stay…hoping to find protection in the inner circle. God will repay…but having said all of this, JESUS IS STILL LORD, and God is NOT to blame. Be diligent, and do not paint churches with too wide a brush. There ARE leaders who lift up Jesus, NOT themselves. There ARE loving Christians who want to serve to God’s glory, not their own. Pastors have a tough job, but do NOT allow leaders to dishonor God by treating you like garbage. A pastor should listen, advise, disciple members who fall into sin, and be a great example of love and humility.
What about people who lie about abuse?
What if it is a group of leaders want to force a confrontation with the victim and perpetrator?
I feel like the platform itself corrupts even the best of character. The position, that has been placed over the body through human tradition, plays to human desire for status. To stand above, and be above others as the one who brings the glory and word of God. That should be Christ and him alone, who has functioned as a servant in his headship. The function of all in the gatherings is that each are given gifts for the building up of the body. So, we need to honor those with less honor, and give none to those that already are, so that there be no division among us, allowing all to participate. The modern church structure of minister and laity is very much modern and ancient heresy the current structure makes.
💯👏👏👏👏👏👏
Scot McKnight denies penal substitutionary atonement calling it 'an unlikely theory'.
So, on this podcast the first thing we need to do is promote Scot's latest book and the last thing we need to do is "encourage" people to buy Scot's book (as though we need courage to buy a book). In between we need to talk about making adjustments to the business which is organized church. That business with its CEO et al does not resemble the home church where people have meals, including taking the Lord's supper, and everyone talks in a small group and they judge prophets that might speak. Oh, while you are checking out Scot's latest book you might check out the 60 other books he has published.
So I'm 33 minutes in and still don't know what happened at willow creek. Was there a brawl during a baptism? Did the schemes of an evil genius pastor nearly destroy a small town? Help us out quicker guys, bring me up to speed, throw me a bone.
I gather there were toxic players I think but don't know what this is about. I feel like I forgot to read the assignment and everyone but me can follow.😢
Love the channel boys, therapeutic...when I know what it's about.
BROTHERS 34:30 the most poignant comment I’ve heard yet on this podcast.
I hope y’all caught that!
I would like to contribute Portuguese subtitles to this video.
Hi, can I order a slainket on your website? How about a flagslainket?
So many abuses occur in the church. Makes you wonder if what's happening is what scripture teaches that Satan and the man of lawlessness will occupy a seat at God's temple in the last days. (2 Thessalonians 3; Daniel 7; Matthew 7). There are so many "false teachers" in the church.. Jesus said, "whoever desires to he great must take last place." It's no wonder most pastors rarely preach on those portions in scripture..
A narcissist does, in fact, feel empathy. However, s/he has an overriding sense of self-centeredness to the poiny that the hubris/pride/arrogance overrides the person's empathy to the degree that s/he appears cold & calloused as s/he fires a staff member or two (or three).
If the person felt no empathy, then s/he would be sociopathic or psychopathic. To say it another way -- a psychopath can be narcissistic but a narcissist is not a psychopath.
Or misunderstand what happened?
I think we should go to the law when terrible things happen that are against the law. But McKnight's handling of the 1 Corinthians passage was very unsatisfying. The principles Paul uses in that passage seem to apply to pencils just as much as terrible crimes. What do we do with that? McKnight didn't help with the scriptural question. The practical question seems obvious. But seeing how this meshes with scripture is tough.
Josh, what do you mean that you don’t teach the NT? Or did you mean Greek?
🙃👍
How about authors? Can they be narcissists as well?
Men can be quite fallible. I kept hearing the word PRIDE while listening in.. Discernment will expose toxic people and toxic churches, hence understanding without the exploits of a scandal .. I do not feel that typically American churches was the vision of Jesus when He said go out and make disciples …when too many people congregate in one place ,, Holiness can he easily Jeopardized, not to mention where this toxicity fits into apostasy and passages such as Ezekiel 34 and those in Jude… pastors are selling and self promoting manmade books and parishioners are sadly often more excited about their book than The Book, the Bible that is… this was a great topic but I do not see many actually taking head… tradition and Religiousness will deter the actual move of the Holy Spirit within the church body as a whole.. Lord please forgive the American churches,, no unified repentance 😢
Toxic church does just as much damage as Satan himself
There is no such thing as a "narcissism scale;" a person is either a narcissist or s/he is not.
The guest may have meant to articulate 'degrees of pride' or 'degrees of control.' However, as Christians, we need to be truthful and not [unintentionally] mislead podcast listeners.
This comment section is spicy
the choir needs another book like they need ANOTHER HEMORRHOID.
Did he really just say the accuracy of women accusing men is 91-99%? How could you *possibly* know that? I highly doubt the statistic, but, more importantly, that is a statistic impossible to know. He's basically saying believe me because of this crazy number that is impossible to verify or dispute. That is an extremely dishonest thing to do, and it will work on a lot of people because they won't realize that statistic is impossible to know. Also, if that statistic were true and known by everyone, the statistic would change.
Yeah within 15 min based on subtle things the author was saying and how he phrased it my red flags started shooting up.
Yeah. I suspect this man’s motives. He is talking very little about Jesus
Probably because he never even suggests having a personal relationship with Christ. I've been digging and I have no reason to think this man is a Christian, which explains why he is solely focused on human behavior and not Jesus and His work on the cross. I wish more people were using their discernment. But your comment did my heart good. Thank you.