For all I know, he was a new and/or first-time DM or maybe he was used to long-running campaigns versus condensed convention play. I was just trying to use his games as examples of what not to do with the hope that it will help other folks in the future. Goodness knows I've made my share of mistakes when DM'ing!
One of my worst games I ever played in was at Garycon. Myself, my wife, and a bunch of our friends from around the Country, and Canada had met up there. We could only find two games with availability for all of us. The first one was an absolute disaster. The GM was cagey, he had an idea for how the game SHOULD go, and instead of simply not letting us do things that would waste time he let us spend 2 full hours trying to get into a building to which we discovered there was only one way in. Once there he mercilessly targeted players killing their characters in methodical, and nonsensical ways. Like my character had heavy armor and a large weapon, and my wife had no armor and a pistol. She died first, for some reason. So she had to spend the remaining hour of the game just not playing. It was truly awful, we all left having had a terrible time. The next game was great though! The GM was clear about our goals, and didn't mind telling us the game was a bit of a railroad (hey it's a con game, that's fine). The group was also excellent, the other folks we didn't know at the table were all new gamers, and were all about trying out weird stuff and having fun. The difference a good, or even just not actively bad, GM can make on a game is astounding.
And this is why I'll never do the convention scene. Can you imagine the cost and time for out of town travel, hotel costs, registration fees ... and then 4 hours get sucked away by *this*?
I would go to a convention but after that first story I would make sure to do tourist stuff too so even if the game sucked, my entire time in that city wasn't a total waste.
Remember: you can always walk away. You're not being paid to sit and play. Just leave and join (or watch) another game. Chances are you'll find something entertaining.
Wow. What a Tomb of Horrors Story. In that it's a Horror story. The DM seems to have wanted to make every DM mistake listed in every Top 10 UA-cam video of things not to do. Accepting too many players, not skipping to the Dungeon door immediately, rigidly applying a nonsensical restriction (you can't split up), only engaging one or two players out of twelve, etc, etc, etc. I also would have been unable to help myself in offering such a DM suggestions on ways to improve the experience for all. Hopefully that DM has learnt a lot since then!
What a story that Con game! Sounds to me that you tried very skillfully and tactfully help the poor clueless DM to get the game go in a somewhat meaningful direction. But alas, there are situations you can't help resolve. A person needs to be receptive to learn, either correcting course during a session or after the fact when there's fewer things for the brain to juggle.
I wouldn't be as good a GM (however my players would assess me) if I hadn't made so many mistakes. For me the key is to try and learn from those mistakes. That said, when it's at a Con it's not good. Learn with your friends first. It's too bad that most cons let anyone GM, but I'm not sure how I would change that.
I have ran many games in conventions. It can get crazy with large groups of player , many of who have not played ever before. I just point to the player to my left and ask "What do you want to do" and move around the table. I have also never actually tried to run a multi part story as one shots.
Something I need to work out in my campaign, is that sometimes it feels like a whole session goes by and very little actually happens, I've had entire sessions that was basically fantasy logistics, it's not like I plan for that to happen it just kind of does. We play every week to it's not a big deal and my players don't seem bothered by it but it sometimes bothers me. I can't imagine playing once a month for that reason, it feels like everything takes so long to do. What tricks do you use to make sure that each session contains something interesting in it, and keep the story moving?
First of all, great question. Sounds like a video topic we'd love to hear Martin discuss. Second, there's always Matt Colville's solution: ... And, suddenly, a small band of orcs appear! When things get bogged down, throw in a random encounter. Could be a fight, could be role play. But that's just one idea
@@ken.droid-the-unique That’s a good answer, I’ve actually been working on a solution I call the “Spice Jar” basically, I write down a ton of random ideas like “strange visions”, “convenient lightning” or “wild animals” on pieces of paper and put them into a jar, and when things get slow I just pull one out. I haven’t really tested it yet but i’ve got a bunch of prompts written down and I just started a new mini-campaign so we’ll see how it goes
I was running WFRP 4E before pandemic. Pandemic interrupted that game and we went our separate ways. After pandemic was over I had a similar thought. I want to run a grim dark world where magic is forbidden by the church. So I did that for awhile. It was great. It’s interesting to see you went through a similar progression decades ago.
Great vid. Totally guilty of some of these mistakes in the past. Fun note, the early Dragonlance modules really did a lot of similar mistakes. You either had to play the characters in the novels, who could not die until the appointed time. Or you could make your own character and then watch from the sidelines as the cast from the books as NPCs were doing all the important stuff. They were also very much about "telling a story" rather than letting the players make choices. I am still confused why some people praise these modules, I thought they were terrible.
That story from your own game is a great example of my favorite kind of roleplay: Discovering what your character is like and what they become together with the GM and the other players! I think they deserve some props for being pretty flexible and not trying to force out their own character's entire backstory as well.
We all make mistakes, and sometimes we get these wild hairs that bring us down a path we don't necessarily want to be in but that for some reason we're convinced we do. I know I've made a lot of really dumb decisions during my time as a DM, only to realize how stupid they were either the next day or years later.
I still have times where I'll be on my morning walk and think about a session I ran a few months ago or sometimes many YEARS ago and I'll think, "I wish I'd done XYZ..." That's partly why I made this video: Not to call anyone out or say that making mistakes is bad, but hopefully to help folks avoid some of these mistakes I've learned from in my years playing and DMing. That was the intent behind the video - I hope no one thinks I'm claiming to be perfect!
You were too kind regarding that DM at the con. He was a bad DM. Bad. He was bad. Bad bad bad. Bad ideas layered one on another. Someone should call his mother and tell her that her son is a bad DM and she should feel bad. I bet one of those 11 other players left and said "you know, I don't think D&D is for me."
Good comment. This comment is good. You are a good commentator. One good comment layered one on another. Someone should call your mother and tell there that her son is a better DM and she should feel good. This comment was so good that it prevented me from ranting. I'll breathe first before leaving my own. That CON game was NOT D&D. It just wasn't. And that's a big problem.
Some writing tropes certainly come to mind but always consider that everything presented should have relevance to the story or perhaps better, the setting. It connects to something if dug into, like clues, but does not require being engaged deeper. As in a mystery, all paths need multiple clues or trails to let players find them without being railroaded to a one way street. And the best advice is only plan for the next chunk, it may have many options, but leave it open as to where it can go once a party chooses. And some doors just close or paths can not be taken once not chosen.
Those first two stories were incredibly frustrating, ha ha (but great lessons!). It was great hearing how your low magic campaign went, and thanks for the interesting cocktail design!
I'm writing these as I listen and your story of the Invincible Storm reminds me of a DM who was in town for a day and ran a one shot. We used some of our best characters and we had to stop the "Evil Wizard". So coming to the final battle we encountered the wizard flying above. We shot arrows, spells, used magic items and nothing seemed to touch this "Invincible Wizard". And that's when I saw the smile on the DMs face and I realized that it was an illusion! A projected image. I told all the players in whispers and made a plan to get the real wizard. So some of the players kept the fake wizard busy while the rest of us scanned for the real wizard and maneuvered ourselves to take him out. It was epic!
I've only played at one convention. My friend and I joined in a competition module. Each table played and whoever finished and or got the most points won a prize. So when we started, it seemed like we were the only ones getting involved in the storyline. The others only seemed to want to kill everything they saw. Being that we had a time limit my friend and I took charge. I've been the "caller" in many games and my friend was really smart when it came to roleplaying. So we had to push these players along to keep them from fighting everything and bickering amongst themselves. We did finish the module and won the tournament. Seems that all the other tables had the same issue with players slowing everything down to where they couldn't finish it in time.
Had a DM one time introduced an NPC into the party. He was a one armed assassin and higher level than us. But he didn't steal the show with the NPC. Instead he made him more of a backup character. He helped with traps we couldn't disarm but having only one arm he didn't do it himself. He just gave us clues on how to disarm them. And later when he was shot in the back with an arrow it was our players that had to help him since he couldn't pull out the arrow with his one arm. That was some very interesting play and good DMing.
Speaking of clerics having crises of faith! I was running the 5e starter box back when it came out, and I had a new player join the group a little while after we’d started. He makes a Cleric because the PHB had been released, and he decides to be a cleric of Pelor. Over the course of the campaign, every time he uses his main cantrip, Sacred Flame, he missed like 80% of the time. We get to the final leg of the adventure, to the magic forge, and there’s a Mace of Lethander. We’re all collectively like “Who the heck is Lethander?” so we take a break to look up who the heck that is. The morninglord? He’s the god of the sun? But isn’t that Pelor? Pelor is in a different setting. He’d been praying to the wrong god this entire time. His sacred flames kept missing because he was praying to Pelor and Lethander was getting constant pings from someone who was praying to someone SIMILAR to him, so he off-handedly threw down a little holy power whenever it happened, but wasn’t paying enough attention for it to hit consistently. He quietly had a crisis of faith in the corner while holding the mace in both hands, staring at it in disbelief as his entire life and faith crumbled before him. This was all completely unintentional and it has become one of the most hilarious and impactful stories in my gaming group.
The "Storm" guy was honestly awful and really turned me off to ever playing with that other kid again. The Convention guy is a different story for me. I know he put a lot of work into it. It wasn't my style of game obviously, but I was also not a great DM for the first few years I tried until I'd had a lot of practice. A lot of the mistakes that person made similar to things I've done myself - the difference was that they were all condensed into one 4-hour sessions whereas mine were spread out across multiple sessions/years, so they weren't quite as bad! I'm just glad I learned from my mistakes and I hope the other DM did as well. If nothing else, I hope it made for an entertaining story!
Oh, I totally have as well! I've had people leave my group due to mistakes I made that they didn't like. I think it's probably the only way to learn. I do hope you enjoy the rest of the video. Thanks for watching and commenting.
I've been mostly lucky with my gaming, although my last few games before I quit the hobby for more than 15 years were pretty terrible. But that's another story. Your first convention story makes me think of a Star Wars game someone ran. They were trying so hard to capture something, but it was something they couldn't seem to quite figure out for themselves, much less explain to the players. Essentially, I think they wanted to write a book or make a movie, but didn't really realize that's what they wanted. No matter how hard they tried, including constantly changing game mechanics, they just couldn't make it happen. They finally threw up their hands and quit and the game ended. What really sucked was that whenever he was just running the game, and not trying to make it something specific, it was actually a pretty great game.
Loved hearing your stories! Good points there too! I also really appreciated your G&D 😁 I should acquaint myself with akvavit living next to Sweden here. Dill is such a Swedish ingredient 😅 Though I think most of the common spices in akvavit are a bit more exotic from a Nordic perspective. Cheers! Kippis!
Always try to have a backup character. Even if you just use a hired mercenary, you can get somebody back into the game. We've had parties of about 8 people more or less. Sometimes each player might have 2 characters. Or a character and some hired mercenaries. At least that way you could keep playing.
Your low magic world reminds me of the Deryni Chronicles by Katherine Kurtz. An alternate medieval Britain, where the ability to use magic is genetically inherited. The minority with the talent, the Deryni, are persecuted as they are thought to be in league with the Devil. Some manage to hide their lineage and talent and rise into influential positions in both Church and politics. Lots of intrigue and some good world building.
Oh, interesting! I've actually never played any of the D&D video games - I'm not a video gamer by nature partly because I just didn't really "grow up" with them. I knew friends who had them but I never had a gaming console or anything like that, so they've never been a draw to me even when I was older and could've played PC games or whatever.
@@daddyrolleda1 I've never played the pool of radiance game either, but there's a book (same cover as game), credited to a Jane Cooper Hong and our old friend Drawmij. I guess it ended up being a trilogy. Second one was more forgettable than first, except for a few comedic beats, and being my first exposure to the Red Wizards. Never even knew about the 3rd till googling just now.
Ah, that's right! I think it was written by James Ward himself, right? (I've never read any TTRPG fiction/novels, either, until finally reading the original Dragonlance Trilogy just last summer for the first time).
That convention story was wild, but what happened to the purple worm just doesn’t make sense if it was related to the past of the dungeon I think it is…
Honestly, the purple worm and wraith would have been killed almost immediately. Spoilers: Anyone incorporeal gets attacked by high level demons. Those demons immediately fix the damage to walls and will attack and kill people trying to by pass them.(my memory could be off) Gygax had players that would really push boundaries and he set things up to make sure things couldn’t be bypassed. It wasn’t supposed to be won.
I love games with a ton of players but I can understand how it can be unmanageable for a DM who is trying to keep people engaged. Your DM sounds like he had not really prepared well enough for the game.
Agreed. I disagree with Daddy 1. That DM did NOT prepare. To me it's obvious. This is how these Snowflake & Safe Spaces (some call this game "5e") players and DMs operate. Story, story, and more story. This is why we hear "rules 'light," over and over. Rules light means "I can't comprehend, let alone, orchestrate and execute a game". Rules light is another way of saying: I can't read books anymore ("text walls") so 1st and 2nd editions are "broken." Now we've got games flooding the market that are doing away with rolling dice altogether. One likes stories? Go write one. Put on a play at your local VFW or church. Knock yourself out. These people should stop pretending they're playing D&D. They're doing something else. A purple worm PC, a Wraith? There are no words. Shame on anyone who didn't get up, go to the organizers and complain about this fool pretending to be a DM.
My god that first story gave me PTSD flashbacks to the group I started playing with that ran BESM D20 Revised HEAVILY homebrewed 😅 Dragging people through your fan fiction is not the type of D&D I want to spend my time playing. One of the bigger reasons I turned old school as a guy who was raised on 3.5 and was initially invested in 5E.
Its strange, and kinda gratifying - just how many of these stories you're sharing are so very similar to my own experiences over the last 40+ years of gaming.
I'm sure most DMs have been through similar issues before as well. That's partly why I wanted to share this - to hopefully help any new folks who are looking into being a DM! Thanks for watching and commenting!
A paladin and a wraith working together; yea, sure. 😅 As the paladin character I would have attacked the wraith immediately, because in the paladin's mind the wraith is an abomination that has to be obliterated.
Interesting. I have to say that the convention DM , and the Storm Crusher sound inept and/or inexperienced. I do think there is a great lesson in your Warhammer style campaign. I , like you , would have been inclined to not let the player slide across the campaign lines and be an arcane caster , but clearly it led to a wonderfully unpredictable character progression. Well done. Good food for DM thought.
Man. 12 at a table is a rough go unless you’re an absolute god tier dm even in an old school game. 5e? That game was doomed when he agreed to run 12. 😮
Yeah, I know for a lot of folks, that's not their cup of tea. I was just trying to do something different that was closer to the fiction I read as a kid when I was discovering the game. I'm not against high fantasy or any other genres (currently I'm playing in a Cthulhu Delta Green game, a Deadlands game, and a Weird WW2 game, and in the campaign I run for my daughter, it's more "standard" D&D). What specifically do you not like about low-magic worlds?
@@daddyrolleda1 I have played a DM’s low magic world years and years ago. It was boring to me and handicapped the player’s characters. I find magic a tool that helps players survive against monsters that otherwise would out power them. Unless the world has little to no magic and little to no monsters and it is a more human only type world. Obviously people should enjoy the game how ever they wish to play it. But when I was playing in that world for a bit, I just wondered why are we playing dungeons and dragons? Shouldn’t we play a different game that suits this style more accurately. But that is just me. Magic makes the game way more interesting in my opinion. It is just like any version after 2e isn’t for me. I tried and have owned the later editions. So it’s not like I didn’t invest into newer systems but none of them had the same feel for me. I will not bash other systems nor people who want to run a low or no magic campaign, but I have no interest in wasting my free time on something I tried and didn’t enjoy. That said everyone is different and that is what makes the world go round. Cheers. P.s. I like your channel. You can tell how knowledgeable you are about the game.
‘Magic makes the game more interesting’ I think often people running low magic are trying to heighten that feeling. If magic is common it loses some of its mystique. I like magic users more like a secret society than Harry Potter school of wizardry. If you remove the magic, anytime the magic shows up is way more notable. ‘Low magic’ by itself doesn’t say a lot though. If I were running 1eadnd for people used to 5th edition, I’d describe it as low magic. Also, anyone trying to run 3e or above low magic has to be really careful. All the combat ratings in the book assume the players have the standard level of magic available. If you’re not careful, a low magic 3e game will quickly become unfair and unfun. The the context of older editions. I think a conversation of expectations and wants is all you need. If I wanted a low or no magic world and a player was dead set on wizard, either you reflavor the spells to fit or make it part of the plot. A magic user in a world with little magic is way more interesting.
@@jeremymullens7167 if you remove magic how does it show up? To each their own, but good luck to your party trying to hit a vampire with their non-magical weapons. Your cleric has no connection to the divine, your party can’t heal and you have no potions or scrolls to help. Can’t cure yourselves. Every time you get hit go back to town for a week to heal up. Hope you don’t run into a large spider. Your armour class will never get really good and giants are going to be hitting constantly. Maybe make it really interesting and take out leveling up too? Obviously this is subjective but I found it boring, you claim it is interesting to you. So go for it.
Low magic and no magic are different. A week to hell goes quick at the table. I don’t know if I’d run a ‘low magic game’. I could do a no magic if I thought I had a good scenario but have nothing in mind. Vampires work best at low levels with little to no magic. I don’t think my players would want to meet one. One way to do it is steal from Dracula. Start killing an NPC the party cares about slowly. Bonus points if they’re a love interest. If the party makes no effort to diagnose or cure it, the NPC dies and will show up later as an enemy. I would probably decide on a time frame that I thought reasonable for the time to die maybe with some added chance and possibly wiggle room. A vampire girlfriend that wants to kill you sounds like it could be fun though. Also, this whole time it shouldn’t necessarily be obvious. I would put the wound somewhere covered by cloths and make them be very against you checking them with an npc family member to sho you away. If NPC dies, move on to a random party member or another npc if it seems better. Basically the problem won’t go away by ignoring it and becomes deadly to the party. Great! You know it’s a vampire killing your friend. But where is it? The vampire is not going to show up for a fight and will evade instead of engage. You have to find where it sleeps during the day. In Dracula our hero was a real estate agent and had sold property in London to the villain. There were multiple properties and any one could be the right one. All of them are death traps. (Don’t have to literally deadly but the should be creepy and very dangerous. Just a straight up trap at a red herring hideout made to catch people is ok) You can either pick one dungeon out of four to eight for the vampire to be in or randomize it every day subtracting the ones the party have sanctified. Basically, you don’t want to meet a vampire. They’re scary. They should be scary. Build the encounter more as a mystery than straight combat. In Dracula, he was killed by a Texas oil tycoon with a Bowie knife. After, you did my murder mystery dance and visited my haunted house of death and made the vampire flee because it felt too compromised and fought through the people transporting it and maybe a wolf pack and opened the coffin on a moving carage then stabbed it. Sure it’s dead. Stab heart. Garlic in mouth. Behead. That’s the official way to kill a vampire no magic weapon needed. Vampires just need a weakness that needs to be researched. That research can look like adventuring. There’s a time limit because people are dying. Werewolf is kinda similar. Starts out as murder mystery. If the party runs into the werewolf before figuring out it’s a werewolf someone dies. I probably wouldn’t tpk but if it runs and they pursue it could be. Vampires and werewolf’s should be mysteries and dangerous. Magic isn’t really needed for the encounter. You just need a way for the party to deal with them. I’d probably think of a couple ways but mostly leave it open ended for the players. I also see it as a very deadly encounter and wouldn’t lightly drop it on players. I might even hint at vampires and werewolves before they got to a place. For poison spiders, they should be buying anti venom. If they didn’t, they die. If you see spider webs, it might be a good idea to leave and research local giant spiders. Then try to get anti venom just in case. I don’t know what kind of poison they have in the bestiary but I’d go with something to paralyze or knock out rather than kill. Things don’t get too bad till later levels. By that point your resources are high enough to cover issues. Any problem should have a solution. Sages are available to give answers. A no magic or low magic might not mean no divine. I think vampires in most cases require a divine. In such a case, prayer and blessings work even if the god won’t grant you thunder bolts. Again, I’m not necessarily planning a low magic campaign. But I like magic to be a bit mysterious and dangerous. Lots of our popular stories have heroes without magic fight monsters that seem invulnerable. The heroes win anyway. On solution is just trap them. Another is a limited magic that is very specific to the solution and feels more like a complex ritual than a DnD spell. These things can happen even with magic. Just because the solution isn’t obvious doesn’t mean there isn’t a solution. Most of my players are out of the box thinkers and find solutions I didn’t even consider. Maybe I’ve just been lucky. I do ask for feedback and advice after every session. I don’t continue things that aren’t fun. I do think you’re too negative to no magic due to a bad experience. It’s probably understandable but not 100% reasonable. No magic CAN be fun if you like roleplaying. A game with no magic where a vampire comes down and instantly kills everyone or a spider poisons everyone with impunity doesn’t seem like a good time. A conversation about expectations is good. If you’re expecting lots of combat and I made a murder mystery it won’t be a good time. Vampire could look like three combat heavy mini dungeons though.
The convention story was hard to bear; it was amazing how poorly that was handled.
For all I know, he was a new and/or first-time DM or maybe he was used to long-running campaigns versus condensed convention play. I was just trying to use his games as examples of what not to do with the hope that it will help other folks in the future. Goodness knows I've made my share of mistakes when DM'ing!
@@daddyrolleda1 Yeah, fair enough.
One of my worst games I ever played in was at Garycon. Myself, my wife, and a bunch of our friends from around the Country, and Canada had met up there. We could only find two games with availability for all of us. The first one was an absolute disaster. The GM was cagey, he had an idea for how the game SHOULD go, and instead of simply not letting us do things that would waste time he let us spend 2 full hours trying to get into a building to which we discovered there was only one way in. Once there he mercilessly targeted players killing their characters in methodical, and nonsensical ways. Like my character had heavy armor and a large weapon, and my wife had no armor and a pistol. She died first, for some reason. So she had to spend the remaining hour of the game just not playing. It was truly awful, we all left having had a terrible time. The next game was great though! The GM was clear about our goals, and didn't mind telling us the game was a bit of a railroad (hey it's a con game, that's fine). The group was also excellent, the other folks we didn't know at the table were all new gamers, and were all about trying out weird stuff and having fun. The difference a good, or even just not actively bad, GM can make on a game is astounding.
And this is why I'll never do the convention scene. Can you imagine the cost and time for out of town travel, hotel costs, registration fees ... and then 4 hours get sucked away by *this*?
I would go to a convention but after that first story I would make sure to do tourist stuff too so even if the game sucked, my entire time in that city wasn't a total waste.
Remember: you can always walk away. You're not being paid to sit and play. Just leave and join (or watch) another game. Chances are you'll find something entertaining.
Wow. What a Tomb of Horrors Story. In that it's a Horror story. The DM seems to have wanted to make every DM mistake listed in every Top 10 UA-cam video of things not to do. Accepting too many players, not skipping to the Dungeon door immediately, rigidly applying a nonsensical restriction (you can't split up), only engaging one or two players out of twelve, etc, etc, etc. I also would have been unable to help myself in offering such a DM suggestions on ways to improve the experience for all. Hopefully that DM has learnt a lot since then!
the real tomb of horrors was the bad GMs we met along the way
What a story that Con game! Sounds to me that you tried very skillfully and tactfully help the poor clueless DM to get the game go in a somewhat meaningful direction. But alas, there are situations you can't help resolve. A person needs to be receptive to learn, either correcting course during a session or after the fact when there's fewer things for the brain to juggle.
I wouldn't be as good a GM (however my players would assess me) if I hadn't made so many mistakes. For me the key is to try and learn from those mistakes.
That said, when it's at a Con it's not good. Learn with your friends first. It's too bad that most cons let anyone GM, but I'm not sure how I would change that.
man these examples make me feel way better about my own subpar games HAHAHA
I have ran many games in conventions. It can get crazy with large groups of player , many of who have not played ever before. I just point to the player to my left and ask "What do you want to do" and move around the table. I have also never actually tried to run a multi part story as one shots.
Something I need to work out in my campaign, is that sometimes it feels like a whole session goes by and very little actually happens, I've had entire sessions that was basically fantasy logistics, it's not like I plan for that to happen it just kind of does. We play every week to it's not a big deal and my players don't seem bothered by it but it sometimes bothers me. I can't imagine playing once a month for that reason, it feels like everything takes so long to do. What tricks do you use to make sure that each session contains something interesting in it, and keep the story moving?
First of all, great question. Sounds like a video topic we'd love to hear Martin discuss.
Second, there's always Matt Colville's solution: ... And, suddenly, a small band of orcs appear! When things get bogged down, throw in a random encounter. Could be a fight, could be role play.
But that's just one idea
@@ken.droid-the-unique That’s a good answer, I’ve actually been working on a solution I call the “Spice Jar” basically, I write down a ton of random ideas like “strange visions”, “convenient lightning” or “wild animals” on pieces of paper and put them into a jar, and when things get slow I just pull one out. I haven’t really tested it yet but i’ve got a bunch of prompts written down and I just started a new mini-campaign so we’ll see how it goes
I was running WFRP 4E before pandemic. Pandemic interrupted that game and we went our separate ways. After pandemic was over I had a similar thought. I want to run a grim dark world where magic is forbidden by the church. So I did that for awhile. It was great. It’s interesting to see you went through a similar progression decades ago.
Great minds think alike!
I would have walked after an hour if I went through that first story.
Great vid. Totally guilty of some of these mistakes in the past.
Fun note, the early Dragonlance modules really did a lot of similar mistakes.
You either had to play the characters in the novels, who could not die until the appointed time. Or you could make your own character and then watch from the sidelines as the cast from the books as NPCs were doing all the important stuff.
They were also very much about "telling a story" rather than letting the players make choices.
I am still confused why some people praise these modules, I thought they were terrible.
That story from your own game is a great example of my favorite kind of roleplay: Discovering what your character is like and what they become together with the GM and the other players! I think they deserve some props for being pretty flexible and not trying to force out their own character's entire backstory as well.
We all make mistakes, and sometimes we get these wild hairs that bring us down a path we don't necessarily want to be in but that for some reason we're convinced we do. I know I've made a lot of really dumb decisions during my time as a DM, only to realize how stupid they were either the next day or years later.
I still have times where I'll be on my morning walk and think about a session I ran a few months ago or sometimes many YEARS ago and I'll think, "I wish I'd done XYZ..."
That's partly why I made this video: Not to call anyone out or say that making mistakes is bad, but hopefully to help folks avoid some of these mistakes I've learned from in my years playing and DMing. That was the intent behind the video - I hope no one thinks I'm claiming to be perfect!
You were too kind regarding that DM at the con. He was a bad DM. Bad. He was bad. Bad bad bad. Bad ideas layered one on another. Someone should call his mother and tell her that her son is a bad DM and she should feel bad.
I bet one of those 11 other players left and said "you know, I don't think D&D is for me."
Good comment. This comment is good. You are a good commentator. One good comment layered one on another. Someone should call your mother and tell there that her son is a better DM and she should feel good. This comment was so good that it prevented me from ranting. I'll breathe first before leaving my own. That CON game was NOT D&D. It just wasn't. And that's a big problem.
@@joezemaitis9781 My work here is done.
I would’ve demanded a rematch on the chariot, race, and double down!
Look, I've been pretty supportive. Stop talking to my players.
Haha! Thanks for the laugh!
I do hope you enjoy the video. And I of course very much appreciate your support!
Sounds like the first DM story at that convention should have just written a novel instead of an rpg adventure.
Some writing tropes certainly come to mind but always consider that everything presented should have relevance to the story or perhaps better, the setting. It connects to something if dug into, like clues, but does not require being engaged deeper.
As in a mystery, all paths need multiple clues or trails to let players find them without being railroaded to a one way street.
And the best advice is only plan for the next chunk, it may have many options, but leave it open as to where it can go once a party chooses. And some doors just close or paths can not be taken once not chosen.
Those first two stories were incredibly frustrating, ha ha (but great lessons!). It was great hearing how your low magic campaign went, and thanks for the interesting cocktail design!
I'm writing these as I listen and your story of the Invincible Storm reminds me of a DM who was in town for a day and ran a one shot.
We used some of our best characters and we had to stop the "Evil Wizard". So coming to the final battle we encountered the wizard flying above. We shot arrows, spells, used magic items and nothing seemed to touch this "Invincible Wizard". And that's when I saw the smile on the DMs face and I realized that it was an illusion! A projected image. I told all the players in whispers and made a plan to get the real wizard. So some of the players kept the fake wizard busy while the rest of us scanned for the real wizard and maneuvered ourselves to take him out.
It was epic!
Hahahahah! Before 16:15 I was going to comment, jokingly, "ah cmon man - doesn't sound as bad as getting into ToH!" Hahahahah😂
I've only played at one convention. My friend and I joined in a competition module. Each table played and whoever finished and or got the most points won a prize.
So when we started, it seemed like we were the only ones getting involved in the storyline. The others only seemed to want to kill everything they saw.
Being that we had a time limit my friend and I took charge. I've been the "caller" in many games and my friend was really smart when it came to roleplaying. So we had to push these players along to keep them from fighting everything and bickering amongst themselves.
We did finish the module and won the tournament. Seems that all the other tables had the same issue with players slowing everything down to where they couldn't finish it in time.
Had a DM one time introduced an NPC into the party. He was a one armed assassin and higher level than us. But he didn't steal the show with the NPC. Instead he made him more of a backup character. He helped with traps we couldn't disarm but having only one arm he didn't do it himself. He just gave us clues on how to disarm them. And later when he was shot in the back with an arrow it was our players that had to help him since he couldn't pull out the arrow with his one arm.
That was some very interesting play and good DMing.
Speaking of clerics having crises of faith! I was running the 5e starter box back when it came out, and I had a new player join the group a little while after we’d started. He makes a Cleric because the PHB had been released, and he decides to be a cleric of Pelor.
Over the course of the campaign, every time he uses his main cantrip, Sacred Flame, he missed like 80% of the time.
We get to the final leg of the adventure, to the magic forge, and there’s a Mace of Lethander. We’re all collectively like “Who the heck is Lethander?” so we take a break to look up who the heck that is. The morninglord? He’s the god of the sun? But isn’t that Pelor?
Pelor is in a different setting. He’d been praying to the wrong god this entire time. His sacred flames kept missing because he was praying to Pelor and Lethander was getting constant pings from someone who was praying to someone SIMILAR to him, so he off-handedly threw down a little holy power whenever it happened, but wasn’t paying enough attention for it to hit consistently.
He quietly had a crisis of faith in the corner while holding the mace in both hands, staring at it in disbelief as his entire life and faith crumbled before him.
This was all completely unintentional and it has become one of the most hilarious and impactful stories in my gaming group.
You assess the first two DM's capabilities far more generously than I would.
The "Storm" guy was honestly awful and really turned me off to ever playing with that other kid again.
The Convention guy is a different story for me. I know he put a lot of work into it. It wasn't my style of game obviously, but I was also not a great DM for the first few years I tried until I'd had a lot of practice. A lot of the mistakes that person made similar to things I've done myself - the difference was that they were all condensed into one 4-hour sessions whereas mine were spread out across multiple sessions/years, so they weren't quite as bad! I'm just glad I learned from my mistakes and I hope the other DM did as well. If nothing else, I hope it made for an entertaining story!
Bloody hell, ive made so many in my time!!!, lol, but never meant to upset or take away fun of my players
Oh, I totally have as well! I've had people leave my group due to mistakes I made that they didn't like. I think it's probably the only way to learn.
I do hope you enjoy the rest of the video. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Okay, time to see how you did against Storm!
Oh, dear God. LOL!
We often use Method III from the DMG to generate AD&D characters so your ability scores actually look legit.
Man I have that exact sketch book with notes and scribbles for a world I designed in 2000!
So funny! I think I got mine at Michael's. The spine is unfortunately coming apart these days.
@@daddyrolleda1 I got mine at Art Mart in 1996. It's in rough shape!
I've been mostly lucky with my gaming, although my last few games before I quit the hobby for more than 15 years were pretty terrible. But that's another story. Your first convention story makes me think of a Star Wars game someone ran. They were trying so hard to capture something, but it was something they couldn't seem to quite figure out for themselves, much less explain to the players. Essentially, I think they wanted to write a book or make a movie, but didn't really realize that's what they wanted. No matter how hard they tried, including constantly changing game mechanics, they just couldn't make it happen. They finally threw up their hands and quit and the game ended. What really sucked was that whenever he was just running the game, and not trying to make it something specific, it was actually a pretty great game.
Loved hearing your stories! Good points there too! I also really appreciated your G&D 😁 I should acquaint myself with akvavit living next to Sweden here. Dill is such a Swedish ingredient 😅 Though I think most of the common spices in akvavit are a bit more exotic from a Nordic perspective. Cheers! Kippis!
Always try to have a backup character. Even if you just use a hired mercenary, you can get somebody back into the game.
We've had parties of about 8 people more or less. Sometimes each player might have 2 characters. Or a character and some hired mercenaries. At least that way you could keep playing.
Your low magic world reminds me of the Deryni Chronicles by Katherine Kurtz. An alternate medieval Britain, where the ability to use magic is genetically inherited. The minority with the talent, the Deryni, are persecuted as they are thought to be in league with the Devil. Some manage to hide their lineage and talent and rise into influential positions in both Church and politics. Lots of intrigue and some good world building.
Your inquisition guy gives me vibes of the antagonist from Pool of Radiance.
Oh, interesting! I've actually never played any of the D&D video games - I'm not a video gamer by nature partly because I just didn't really "grow up" with them. I knew friends who had them but I never had a gaming console or anything like that, so they've never been a draw to me even when I was older and could've played PC games or whatever.
@@daddyrolleda1 I've never played the pool of radiance game either, but there's a book (same cover as game), credited to a Jane Cooper Hong and our old friend Drawmij. I guess it ended up being a trilogy. Second one was more forgettable than first, except for a few comedic beats, and being my first exposure to the Red Wizards. Never even knew about the 3rd till googling just now.
Ah, that's right! I think it was written by James Ward himself, right? (I've never read any TTRPG fiction/novels, either, until finally reading the original Dragonlance Trilogy just last summer for the first time).
You're describing a world very similar to the one I've been working on in my free time for several years now.
Good stuff
That convention story was wild, but what happened to the purple worm just doesn’t make sense if it was related to the past of the dungeon I think it is…
Honestly, the purple worm and wraith would have been killed almost immediately.
Spoilers:
Anyone incorporeal gets attacked by high level demons. Those demons immediately fix the damage to walls and will attack and kill people trying to by pass them.(my memory could be off)
Gygax had players that would really push boundaries and he set things up to make sure things couldn’t be bypassed. It wasn’t supposed to be won.
I love games with a ton of players but I can understand how it can be unmanageable for a DM who is trying to keep people engaged.
Your DM sounds like he had not really prepared well enough for the game.
Agreed. I disagree with Daddy 1. That DM did NOT prepare. To me it's obvious. This is how these Snowflake & Safe Spaces (some call this game "5e") players and DMs operate. Story, story, and more story. This is why we hear "rules 'light," over and over. Rules light means "I can't comprehend, let alone, orchestrate and execute a game". Rules light is another way of saying: I can't read books anymore ("text walls") so 1st and 2nd editions are "broken." Now we've got games flooding the market that are doing away with rolling dice altogether. One likes stories? Go write one. Put on a play at your local VFW or church. Knock yourself out. These people should stop pretending they're playing D&D. They're doing something else. A purple worm PC, a Wraith? There are no words. Shame on anyone who didn't get up, go to the organizers and complain about this fool pretending to be a DM.
My god that first story gave me PTSD flashbacks to the group I started playing with that ran BESM D20 Revised HEAVILY homebrewed 😅
Dragging people through your fan fiction is not the type of D&D I want to spend my time playing.
One of the bigger reasons I turned old school as a guy who was raised on 3.5 and was initially invested in 5E.
Its strange, and kinda gratifying - just how many of these stories you're sharing are so very similar to my own experiences over the last 40+ years of gaming.
I'm sure most DMs have been through similar issues before as well. That's partly why I wanted to share this - to hopefully help any new folks who are looking into being a DM!
Thanks for watching and commenting!
A paladin and a wraith working together; yea, sure. 😅 As the paladin character I would have attacked the wraith immediately, because in the paladin's mind the wraith is an abomination that has to be obliterated.
Interesting. I have to say that the convention DM , and the Storm Crusher sound inept and/or inexperienced. I do think there is a great lesson in your Warhammer style campaign. I , like you , would have been inclined to not let the player slide across the campaign lines and be an arcane caster , but clearly it led to a wonderfully unpredictable character progression.
Well done.
Good food for DM thought.
Man. 12 at a table is a rough go unless you’re an absolute god tier dm even in an old school game. 5e? That game was doomed when he agreed to run 12. 😮
Wow!! Those stories are horrible. I have a couple of really bad stories but they don't compare with yours. Excellent DM Advice!!
Low magic world. Count me out.
Yeah, I know for a lot of folks, that's not their cup of tea. I was just trying to do something different that was closer to the fiction I read as a kid when I was discovering the game. I'm not against high fantasy or any other genres (currently I'm playing in a Cthulhu Delta Green game, a Deadlands game, and a Weird WW2 game, and in the campaign I run for my daughter, it's more "standard" D&D).
What specifically do you not like about low-magic worlds?
@@daddyrolleda1 I have played a DM’s low magic world years and years ago. It was boring to me and handicapped the player’s characters. I find magic a tool that helps players survive against monsters that otherwise would out power them. Unless the world has little to no magic and little to no monsters and it is a more human only type world.
Obviously people should enjoy the game how ever they wish to play it. But when I was playing in that world for a bit, I just wondered why are we playing dungeons and dragons? Shouldn’t we play a different game that suits this style more accurately.
But that is just me. Magic makes the game way more interesting in my opinion.
It is just like any version after 2e isn’t for me. I tried and have owned the later editions. So it’s not like I didn’t invest into newer systems but none of them had the same feel for me. I will not bash other systems nor people who want to run a low or no magic campaign, but I have no interest in wasting my free time on something I tried and didn’t enjoy. That said everyone is different and that is what makes the world go round.
Cheers.
P.s. I like your channel. You can tell how knowledgeable you are about the game.
‘Magic makes the game more interesting’
I think often people running low magic are trying to heighten that feeling. If magic is common it loses some of its mystique.
I like magic users more like a secret society than Harry Potter school of wizardry.
If you remove the magic, anytime the magic shows up is way more notable.
‘Low magic’ by itself doesn’t say a lot though. If I were running 1eadnd for people used to 5th edition, I’d describe it as low magic.
Also, anyone trying to run 3e or above low magic has to be really careful. All the combat ratings in the book assume the players have the standard level of magic available. If you’re not careful, a low magic 3e game will quickly become unfair and unfun.
The the context of older editions. I think a conversation of expectations and wants is all you need. If I wanted a low or no magic world and a player was dead set on wizard, either you reflavor the spells to fit or make it part of the plot. A magic user in a world with little magic is way more interesting.
@@jeremymullens7167 if you remove magic how does it show up?
To each their own, but good luck to your party trying to hit a vampire with their non-magical weapons.
Your cleric has no connection to the divine, your party can’t heal and you have no potions or scrolls to help. Can’t cure yourselves. Every time you get hit go back to town for a week to heal up. Hope you don’t run into a large spider. Your armour class will never get really good and giants are going to be hitting constantly.
Maybe make it really interesting and take out leveling up too?
Obviously this is subjective but I found it boring, you claim it is interesting to you. So go for it.
Low magic and no magic are different.
A week to hell goes quick at the table. I don’t know if I’d run a ‘low magic game’. I could do a no magic if I thought I had a good scenario but have nothing in mind.
Vampires work best at low levels with little to no magic. I don’t think my players would want to meet one.
One way to do it is steal from Dracula. Start killing an NPC the party cares about slowly. Bonus points if they’re a love interest. If the party makes no effort to diagnose or cure it, the NPC dies and will show up later as an enemy. I would probably decide on a time frame that I thought reasonable for the time to die maybe with some added chance and possibly wiggle room. A vampire girlfriend that wants to kill you sounds like it could be fun though.
Also, this whole time it shouldn’t necessarily be obvious. I would put the wound somewhere covered by cloths and make them be very against you checking them with an npc family member to sho you away.
If NPC dies, move on to a random party member or another npc if it seems better. Basically the problem won’t go away by ignoring it and becomes deadly to the party.
Great! You know it’s a vampire killing your friend. But where is it? The vampire is not going to show up for a fight and will evade instead of engage. You have to find where it sleeps during the day.
In Dracula our hero was a real estate agent and had sold property in London to the villain. There were multiple properties and any one could be the right one. All of them are death traps. (Don’t have to literally deadly but the should be creepy and very dangerous. Just a straight up trap at a red herring hideout made to catch people is ok)
You can either pick one dungeon out of four to eight for the vampire to be in or randomize it every day subtracting the ones the party have sanctified.
Basically, you don’t want to meet a vampire. They’re scary. They should be scary. Build the encounter more as a mystery than straight combat.
In Dracula, he was killed by a Texas oil tycoon with a Bowie knife. After, you did my murder mystery dance and visited my haunted house of death and made the vampire flee because it felt too compromised and fought through the people transporting it and maybe a wolf pack and opened the coffin on a moving carage then stabbed it. Sure it’s dead. Stab heart. Garlic in mouth. Behead. That’s the official way to kill a vampire no magic weapon needed.
Vampires just need a weakness that needs to be researched. That research can look like adventuring. There’s a time limit because people are dying.
Werewolf is kinda similar. Starts out as murder mystery. If the party runs into the werewolf before figuring out it’s a werewolf someone dies. I probably wouldn’t tpk but if it runs and they pursue it could be.
Vampires and werewolf’s should be mysteries and dangerous. Magic isn’t really needed for the encounter. You just need a way for the party to deal with them. I’d probably think of a couple ways but mostly leave it open ended for the players.
I also see it as a very deadly encounter and wouldn’t lightly drop it on players. I might even hint at vampires and werewolves before they got to a place.
For poison spiders, they should be buying anti venom. If they didn’t, they die. If you see spider webs, it might be a good idea to leave and research local giant spiders. Then try to get anti venom just in case.
I don’t know what kind of poison they have in the bestiary but I’d go with something to paralyze or knock out rather than kill.
Things don’t get too bad till later levels. By that point your resources are high enough to cover issues. Any problem should have a solution.
Sages are available to give answers.
A no magic or low magic might not mean no divine. I think vampires in most cases require a divine. In such a case, prayer and blessings work even if the god won’t grant you thunder bolts.
Again, I’m not necessarily planning a low magic campaign. But I like magic to be a bit mysterious and dangerous.
Lots of our popular stories have heroes without magic fight monsters that seem invulnerable. The heroes win anyway. On solution is just trap them. Another is a limited magic that is very specific to the solution and feels more like a complex ritual than a DnD spell.
These things can happen even with magic. Just because the solution isn’t obvious doesn’t mean there isn’t a solution.
Most of my players are out of the box thinkers and find solutions I didn’t even consider. Maybe I’ve just been lucky.
I do ask for feedback and advice after every session. I don’t continue things that aren’t fun.
I do think you’re too negative to no magic due to a bad experience. It’s probably understandable but not 100% reasonable. No magic CAN be fun if you like roleplaying.
A game with no magic where a vampire comes down and instantly kills everyone or a spider poisons everyone with impunity doesn’t seem like a good time.
A conversation about expectations is good. If you’re expecting lots of combat and I made a murder mystery it won’t be a good time. Vampire could look like three combat heavy mini dungeons though.