For Jazz you can't go wrong with XY. It gives the most narrow stereo image, but it gives the most accurate representation, the best phase relation, and the best sounding shells and overall whole picture of the kit.
Check out the Recorderman technique for an awesome hybrid of Glyn Johns and the Engelhart. You’ll get the snare of the former and very similar drummer’s perspective to the latter. There’s an in depth video from a few years ago featuring Mixerman who invented the technique elsewhere on UA-cam.
thanks! my favorite is Engelhart. Usually I use AB spaced. Also recently I saw pictures of Coltrane quartet Lost Album and Rudy used just two mikes. One between cymbals and second next to Hi Hat.Interesting
I left the same comment in your mono overhead video because I had not yet found this one. But using an XY field recorder (e.g. Tascam or Zoom), I put it over my right shoulder, and it hears what I hear ( Englehart) but I do not add an additional bass drum mic. My bass drum had no damping or porting. This is the poor man's studio on a stick.
@Michael D'Angelo Nice demo, Michael. Can't go wrong with the EW SR25 mics. :) However, just a note that the ORTF, Glyn Johns, and "Engelhart" setups typically use Cardioid polar pattern mics (and usually so do the "spaced pair" and "coincident X/Y" as well). So your (and our) results will vary from most other demos using these techniques, mostly in terms of stereo width or L/R separation and the spacing between each element in the kit. For example, the image that you posted of the great Bill Frisell Trio looks like they are using the excellent Neumann KM84/KM184 Cardioid SDC mics as the "overheads" for the drum kit. This "over the shoulder" technique also works extremely well as a mono 1 mic drum kit solution when placed over the drummer's right shoulder and aimed at the snare drum. And the diagram that you displayed for the ORTF technique designated Cardioid polar pattern SDC mics. ;) No matter...As demonstrated, these will all work extremely well in a mix and sound fantastic with the omni SDC mics. :) Great tuning and playing as well, of course! Cheers P.S. If you will allow Links in your comments, I have posted a separate link to a web site that illustrates a visualization of the stereo imaging width and separation you can expect when using various microphone techniques as well as when some of the individual parameters in those techniques are adjusted. Or, just search for "Sengpiel Audio Visualization ORTF".
Great points here. I should clarify that the Earthworks SR25’s do in fact have a cardioid polar pattern which is typically different than most Earthworks microphones that use an omnidirectional pattern. Thanks for watching!
My favorite was the spaced pair, 2nd was the XY which was a little narrow. The spaced pair sounded nice and wide but also didn't mess up the snare sound like the ORTF and the Glynn Johns did.
May I ask what your method is for tuning your snare? It sounds absolutely lovely! I'm usually pretty forgiving/don't necessarily get too fiddly about snare tone, but your sound here really stands out as being gorgeous! It probably also has a bit to do with what heads you use as well! Thanks for this great video and any info you could provide if you see this!
Great video! I mostly play indie rock type stuff but this was very helpful. I’ve tried coincident pairs and resorted back to spaced pair. I’ve been using the phase meter in my daw to check if my overheads are in phase. The shells usually line up in the middle but the cymbals are always close to zero. It sounds good to my ears but I was wondering if that was a problem.
I like the separation of the spaced pair and also the added warmth of the Engelhardt. Glyn Johns just didn't work for me for Jazz as the sound seemed compressed, not in the sense of a compressor, but the tone seemed a bit boxy. Both coincident pairs were just okay. They captured everything but they just don't sound as lively. I did a couple recordings at a studio that had the Earthworks overheads. Geez, cymbals really had a lot of sparkle and character.
Hi Michael. Very much enjoyed this video. Thank you. I use a Clarett 8 Pre too, and Paiste. Wondering on whether I should also think about Earthworks mics. I currently use AKG C214.
This is great. I always ask engineers about how they handle phase in a jazz setting. So you use the bass drum as opposed to the snare for measuring OHs?
Thanks Mike! I do use the bass drum as my measurement because that is where the other microphone is. Some of these examples I had to flip the phase on the bass drum to play nicely with the overheads. Using the cable method, it does in fact get the bass drum *and* snare drum phase coherent with the overheads. Here's a really interesting article about phase relationship and overhead mics, and there is a section where the bass drum is mentioned as the "central" part of the kit. Worth a read! www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2018/04/23/Youre-micing-drums-wrong.html
I'm trying to figure out, if a recording of 2 overhead mics are panned center are they still stereo or is it only stereo if you pan them after recording?
ORTF, I'm not sold. With the mics that close to the kit, every sound is hitting the mics off axis (not a huge deal with earthworks but still a deal), but really the transients got no love because the only sound hitting the capsules directly are the reflected sounds. For kicks some time, try rotating your mics 45-ish degrees so one points at the kick and the other at the snare, ish. It creates a vibe, esp. with XY. The thing that always warms my heart with XY, and I hear it here in spades, are the super tight, fat, punchy transients, on everything. If your player is ham handed it can be too much HF detail, but with a deft touch like yours, you get so many options for placement and vibe in the mix. Engelhart... it sounds so washed out to me, I wonder if that's more down to your room, I feel like 12-18" closer to the kit would maybe help the clarity in your space. Thanks for taking the time!
Steve Albini has used two over-the-shoulder ribbons as overheads for a while now, it’s not uncommon in the world of rock and roll to record drums that way.
For Jazz you can't go wrong with XY.
It gives the most narrow stereo image, but it gives the most accurate representation, the best phase relation, and the best sounding shells and overall whole picture of the kit.
I really liked the open soundstage of the no. 2 ORTF setup, followed by the no. 03 Spaced and more natural sounding 05 Engelhart setups.
Engelhart did it for me. Thanks!
This is gold. You are a killer teacher. Please keep going!
waw ..... Engelhart did it for me to ..... great thanks
What's the spacing on the Englehart setup? Equidistant from snare? From kick?
back-to-back comparison. clear demonstration. thank you for respecting your viewer's time.
Check out the Recorderman technique for an awesome hybrid of Glyn Johns and the Engelhart. You’ll get the snare of the former and very similar drummer’s perspective to the latter. There’s an in depth video from a few years ago featuring Mixerman who invented the technique elsewhere on UA-cam.
I've been loving this mic set up a lot lately!
like the engelhart most than ortf......thanks a lot great video!!!!
thanks! my favorite is Engelhart. Usually I use AB spaced. Also recently I saw pictures of Coltrane quartet Lost Album and Rudy used just two mikes. One between cymbals and second next to Hi Hat.Interesting
3 sounds huge! thanks for this videos, great playing! :)
Hey there, Mike! Great cid- glad I stumbled across your channel
-Thomas Eby
I left the same comment in your mono overhead video because I had not yet found this one. But using an XY field recorder (e.g. Tascam or Zoom), I put it over my right shoulder, and it hears what I hear ( Englehart) but I do not add an additional bass drum mic. My bass drum had no damping or porting. This is the poor man's studio on a stick.
@Michael D'Angelo
Nice demo, Michael. Can't go wrong with the EW SR25 mics. :)
However, just a note that the ORTF, Glyn Johns, and "Engelhart" setups typically use Cardioid polar pattern mics (and usually so do the "spaced pair" and "coincident X/Y" as well).
So your (and our) results will vary from most other demos using these techniques, mostly in terms of stereo width or L/R separation and the spacing between each element in the kit.
For example, the image that you posted of the great Bill Frisell Trio looks like they are using the excellent Neumann KM84/KM184 Cardioid SDC mics as the "overheads" for the drum kit. This "over the shoulder" technique also works extremely well as a mono 1 mic drum kit solution when placed over the drummer's right shoulder and aimed at the snare drum.
And the diagram that you displayed for the ORTF technique designated Cardioid polar pattern SDC mics. ;)
No matter...As demonstrated, these will all work extremely well in a mix and sound fantastic with the omni SDC mics. :)
Great tuning and playing as well, of course!
Cheers
P.S. If you will allow Links in your comments, I have posted a separate link to a web site that illustrates a visualization of the stereo imaging width and separation you can expect when using various microphone techniques as well as when some of the individual parameters in those techniques are adjusted. Or, just search for "Sengpiel Audio Visualization ORTF".
Great points here.
I should clarify that the Earthworks SR25’s do in fact have a cardioid polar pattern which is typically different than most Earthworks microphones that use an omnidirectional pattern.
Thanks for watching!
@@michaeldangelomusic
DOH! Of course, you are correct. 😊 I'm too used to implementing the Omni QTC30 measurement and other EW omni mics. Carry on!
My favorite was the spaced pair, 2nd was the XY which was a little narrow. The spaced pair sounded nice and wide but also didn't mess up the snare sound like the ORTF and the Glynn Johns did.
May I ask what your method is for tuning your snare? It sounds absolutely lovely! I'm usually pretty forgiving/don't necessarily get too fiddly about snare tone, but your sound here really stands out as being gorgeous! It probably also has a bit to do with what heads you use as well! Thanks for this great video and any info you could provide if you see this!
Thank you for the great tips. Engelhart approach sounds lovely I think. So naturel.
Great video! I mostly play indie rock type stuff but this was very helpful. I’ve tried coincident pairs and resorted back to spaced pair. I’ve been using the phase meter in my daw to check if my overheads are in phase. The shells usually line up in the middle but the cymbals are always close to zero. It sounds good to my ears but I was wondering if that was a problem.
I like the separation of the spaced pair and also the added warmth of the Engelhardt. Glyn Johns just didn't work for me for Jazz as the sound seemed compressed, not in the sense of a compressor, but the tone seemed a bit boxy. Both coincident pairs were just okay. They captured everything but they just don't sound as lively. I did a couple recordings at a studio that had the Earthworks overheads. Geez, cymbals really had a lot of sparkle and character.
I really like every sound you captured 👍
One question, How high did you put overhead microphones?
Hi Michael. Very much enjoyed this video. Thank you. I use a Clarett 8 Pre too, and Paiste. Wondering on whether I should also think about Earthworks mics. I currently use AKG C214.
No. 3 Thank you
or maybe 05, but with a snare mic (?)
04 Glyn Johns seems phasey...
Hey! I'm Mario D'Angela, another MD initial drummer haha :)
Welcome to the club! 👊🏻
Fantastic!
This is great. I always ask engineers about how they handle phase in a jazz setting.
So you use the bass drum as opposed to the snare for measuring OHs?
Thanks Mike!
I do use the bass drum as my measurement because that is where the other microphone is. Some of these examples I had to flip the phase on the bass drum to play nicely with the overheads.
Using the cable method, it does in fact get the bass drum *and* snare drum phase coherent with the overheads. Here's a really interesting article about phase relationship and overhead mics, and there is a section where the bass drum is mentioned as the "central" part of the kit. Worth a read!
www.admiralbumblebee.com/music/2018/04/23/Youre-micing-drums-wrong.html
@@michaeldangelomusic Thanks for sharing!
I'm trying to figure out, if a recording of 2 overhead mics are panned center are they still stereo or is it only stereo if you pan them after recording?
ORTF, I'm not sold. With the mics that close to the kit, every sound is hitting the mics off axis (not a huge deal with earthworks but still a deal), but really the transients got no love because the only sound hitting the capsules directly are the reflected sounds. For kicks some time, try rotating your mics 45-ish degrees so one points at the kick and the other at the snare, ish. It creates a vibe, esp. with XY. The thing that always warms my heart with XY, and I hear it here in spades, are the super tight, fat, punchy transients, on everything. If your player is ham handed it can be too much HF detail, but with a deft touch like yours, you get so many options for placement and vibe in the mix. Engelhart... it sounds so washed out to me, I wonder if that's more down to your room, I feel like 12-18" closer to the kit would maybe help the clarity in your space. Thanks for taking the time!
Nice video! One question, where do u point the overheads on Engelhart setup?
Place them above your shoulders pointing toward the middle of the drum kit on each side, for example in between the ride cymbal and floor tom
Thx!
Engelhart!!!
Steve Albini has used two over-the-shoulder ribbons as overheads for a while now, it’s not uncommon in the world of rock and roll to record drums that way.
Engelhart
glyn johns