Eddie Van Halen knew... How Do You Keep a Strat Trem In Tune When You Dive Bomb???
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- Опубліковано 5 чер 2024
- When you sneeze on your vibrato bar, your guitar goes out of tune. Annoying, huh? Well, it doesn't have to be that way! You can keep a Strat trem from becoming a "make strings go wonky" lever with a few simple things. I talk about that in this video, but I'll list those things here:
1. 3-In-One Oil. Seriously. Put it in the nut, put it under your strings in the saddles.
2. A well cut nut.
3. Staggered tuners. I know these things are controversial, but I LOVE THEM. They have done nothing but work for me. You can get locking ones, but it's not absolutely necessary.
4. Don't clamp your trem plate down by over-tightening the 6 trem screws. In fact, you can remove the middle 4 (Eddie did this on Bumblebee before he put the Floyd on there) or just back them off enough so they don't really come in contact with the bridge plate. You can also use some 3-In-One Oil on them, too!
Oh, and this guitar is for sale, too! Buy it here (if still available): ebay.us/sByyJI?cmpnId=5338273189 - Розваги
Great video! I built guitar too. Love it ! I just build a strat with 57/62 usa pickups 🤙 sound great!
You saved me from going out and buying a guitar with a Floyd Rose. A few dabs of 3-in-1 on the nut slots and on the string trees of my Player HSS Strat made a massive difference! My guitar actually stays in tune now when I lean hard on the trem. Thank you!
Glad it works for you! I love Floyds, too, but dang are they invasive to install. Much rather make a Strat trem work as it should.
Try teflon
I recently purchased a set of Wilkinson locking saddles. These work on any vintage style Trem and add a bit more stability to Trem work and string bends. I believe Eddie had all of his trems "flat on the deck" which means they don't pull up which also adds bit of stability. The trend among most manufacturers recently is reverting to more classic style trems and getting away from locking nuts and Floyds. Many new Jackson, and Ibanez top shelf models are doing this.
Another tip I like to give people is to remember what Eddie was doing with the bar before the floyd. He never really reamed on the bar very much before the third album (with the floyd rose). Other than down-and-up divebombs and the occasional vibrato, he was never very extreme with it. If you set your guitar up the way he had it, the tremolo should actually be the thing that puts your guitar BACK in tune after bending. Every time eddie does a big bend on the first album he follows up with tremolo usage a few seconds later, or at the same time, and this was intentional to be able to put the guitar back in tune.
Good point! Thanks for that!
What about on Eruption? I think he reamed on the bar pretty much from the beginning. Its true that for some parts you don't need to whale on it so hard, it takes less arm pressure for a pitch drop on a Fender trem than a floyd rose, at least in my collection, but that also has to do with the setup and what not.
@@GuyNarnarian the first use on eruption is down-up, not reaming. the second/third is a quick vibrato and a quick dive right before the tremolo picking, to put the strings back in tune before that section. after that he dives down and back up slowly. He doesn't really ream on the bar in eruption at all. The hardest he ever reamed on the tremolo bar was in the solo overdubs from VH2, which he probably felt comfortable doing given he was only punching in the solo, not keeping in tune for the rest of the song after. He definitely had his tricks to stay in tune, but before WACF (which is all floyd rose) he didn't really use the bar like people associate him with yet.
You know I think you’re right because I can give my strat a quick pull up with the bar and it’ll get back in tune! I discovered this by accident lol!
There are several videos on UA-cam demonstrating how to properly tie off, or lock the strings during installation for standard through hole tuner posts. I only felt the need to refer to these videos recently after acquiring an American Standard Strat, which in conjunction with lubricating everything with graphite grease, and I mean everything, trem springs, saddles, fulcrum points of trem, string trees (yes, I still have them fitted!) I've found that as long as the strings are properly stretched and bedded in, I have zero tuning stability issues. The trem is two point, floating, and with four vintage tension springs, the tuners are standard and non-locking, however the nut is an LSR roller, but it works great. My other strat however has a Wilkinson six screw vintage type, set floating, a bronze nut that I made and fitted myself, the original vintage string trees, and split post vintage tuners. Again fitted with four springs and everything lubed. With regards to fitting the strings however, I followed the advice from Chris Kinman on locking off the strings with vintage split post tuners, and I also have very, very little tuning issues with this strat also, with vary rare flattening of the G string. If the string goes flat, I just dip the bar a little, and nine times out of ten it will return to pitch! One caveat here though, I do use 10 gauge strings, and reapply the graphite grease at every string change, which is probably overkill, but it works for me! I've also heard that a product called Superlube, which contains PTFE rather than graphite works equally well, as does moly based gun grease. Grease is preferable to oil as it can withstand greater pressure, and doesn't spread everywhere!
Nice video, very informative as a Strat noob/relatively recent purchaser. Subscribed!
Great video. Thanks for the wisdom!
Thanks for the tip. Great video
I'm building my own "Frankin-Strat". But I'm not going to paint it. Yes, sacrilegious... But, I want a "sleeper", just looks like some cheap, unbranded, strat style guitar, some idiot built that can't even workout how to wire up more than 1 pick-up...
I purchased the Same bridge you used hear, and the same pick-up... I was wondering about the string trees, staying in tune. I knew about the oil, but I didn't even think about staggered tuners, what a Great idea... I was looking at a Bone nut, but I think the Brass nut you described would do a better job. Love I could find this video, 2 Years after you made it now I'm about to start my own project, Thank you.
Good luck, I believe it's just more rewarding to play a guitar you made yourself!
Use clock oil, float the trem, get your spring tension right! Done this for years on non floyd trems, never had a guitar go out of tune.
Where do you get cock oil?
Wilkinson make fantastic trems. Been replacing all my Fender trems with them for years. I also often refit the block with a brass bock, makes a big difference to the tone and sustain.
The Duncan Custom Custom SH-11 is what Seymour wound for Eddie. It really gets that old VH tone. Not as high output as a JB but it has more clarity.
Oh certainly, supposedly the pickup on Fair Warning songs such as Unchained! Had one in a Bumblebee clone I built and it sounded killer!
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 The Custom 5 (alnico 5) is also a great pickup, but it doesn't hone in as well on the classic era Eddie tone. It is still a bit clearer than a JB because the output is slightly lower. I love the regular SH-5 ceramic Custom as well which has been my main pickup since 1986. I also love the Full Shred. As far as I know Eddie started using JBs around the 1984 era, maybe Diver Down. The pickups on the Music Man Wolfgang, know branded as the Axis, came from the JB in Eddie's 5150, particularly the bridge pickup. Out of the development of the Wolfgang set DiMarzio also came up with the Tone Zone which is a great pickup, but honestly has too much low end and can get muddy. I believe in clarity over output, regardless of brand. Eddie's tone, starting with 1984 drifted further and further from his classic era tone. I know that players prefer to get new tones after a while, but I always felt 1984 was the beginning of a blander tone. It can't all be chalked up to the JB which is a fine pickup. Eddie, after all, is the one who wanted to add all those keyboards to 1984. Roth didn't want to do that. He wanted to be more hard rocking. He didn't even like "Jump". Back to the 5150 ax. The JB it had was failing, in part because Eddie somehow damaged it. It had a coil that was failing. But Eddie loved the tone of that pickup so much that he had DiMarzio back engineer it when they designed the Wolfgang. Larry DiMarzio and Steve Blucher flew in from New York just to work with Eddie on the pickup design. As you can imagine we're talking about the biggest client in the world. But the pickups in the Wolfgang were never sold seperatly. The closest thing you can get to the Wolfgang set is an Andy Timmons AT-1 for hte bridge and Air Norton for the neck. I've tried the AT-1 and can attest it's a great pickup. Again, with Timmons you had a player who had been using JBs for a couple of decades before becomig a DiMarzio endorser with the introduction of the Ibanez Andy Timmons model around 2000 which came with the AT-1 in the bridge and Cruisers in the neck and bridge, which is a great set. Another pickup similar to the AT-1 is the Air Zone which is basically an Airbuckered Tone Zone with less output and a lot more clarity. I recommend it too, but I won't claim it get near classic Eddie territory. To sum it all up, the Custom Custom SH-11 is the best all around pickup you can get for a classic VH tone. They do make the '78 model which is also A2. I haven't tried it, but the sound samples I've heard are very good. But the SH-11 is a sure bet. Good video.
I really like these ideas I’m gonna give ‘em a go I‘ve never attempted to lubricate the nut ever 😂 but I’ll try now since I’ve been seeing that every one says it’s helpful and is removing one of the springs in the back really help create more crazy dive bombs??
I believe it does. I find these Strat trem cavity springs to be much stiffer than Kahler springs, and having 2 seems to make it super easy to dive bomb.
This kid is hilarious... 4 stars
I’m way into Ritchie’s playing but it’s hard to get his tone with a single coil bridge pickup. It’s such a warm tone for a single coil
Excelente donde puedo comprar ese puente que modelo es
Olive oil and beeswax balm works great.
Van Halen struggled a lot with some fo the hardware he used since the extreme usage he put to it. That is why latter on he was able to have his own signature guitar with the characteristics he needed for so awesome abusive guitar trick besides that he knew how to properly do them.
Wait, Sir, can you tell me where you got those overalls hanging on the door behind you? Went to a Christmas costume party as the great EVH, but I had to settle for some overalls that were not quite as good. Thank you, very curious
I got some plain red overalls from Amazon and just painted them. Did it by taping off sections and using plain old spray paint!
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 Awesome, cool thank you!
What exact tremolo is that? Model number or description would be great, thanks.
It's this one right here!
www.amazon.com/Wilkinson-Vintage-Guitar-Tremolo-Bridge/dp/B084ZFWL2Y?pd_rd_w=sIgD9&pf_rd_p=e0d46bc2-436f-4db3-a26e-323523040b19&pf_rd_r=EVCSJFQ5FEHB1A1FF5RQ&pd_rd_r=331ec9f6-477a-4460-a4f0-ccd9c37743a1&pd_rd_wg=Rsm9v&pd_rd_i=B084ZFWL2Y&psc=1&ref_=pd_bap_m_rp_1_sc
PRS actually did just about everything you could do to help a vintage 6 screw 'Fender' type tremolo stay in tune. Sure, What EVH did was great (3 in 1 oil at friction points and keeping the plate flush to the body,etc), but PRS basically took notes from Floyd Rose, and (1) Shortened the length of the string PAST the saddle (PRS tremolo blocks have the strings ball end WAY deeper, closer to the saddles), which simulates what floyd did. (2) PRS has the fulcrum effect of the 2 pivot post Floyd Rose by having a bevel on the 6 mounting screws. The plate forms a fulcrum with this. Basically adding a bit of lube on the friction points (nut and saddles) along with graduated height locking tuning machines (Sperzel Trim Lok are the best imo) and you have a VERY stable tuning scenario, while really using the bar heavily. Floating the trem is bad for tone, as well as the fact that it doesnt hold up to left hand bends. You want the plate flat to the body (sorry, no pulling up). Frudua embellishes the PRS ( PRS patent applied I might add) innovations quite nicely.
Floating is bad for tone, how so?
@@bluwng The resonance on a strat involves all of the strings contact points, but strictly concerning the bridge, you have the claw screws, springs, block, plate and saddles. The 6 mounting screws (or two) along with the plate's contact to the guitars body, allow more sound/resonance to occur. Its not night and day as concerned to floating, but a flush mount tremolo will definatley give you more string vibration, which is what the electronics further down the chain (pickups, amp) demonstrate. Wood species and specific density along with the growth rings being properly orientated are also quite significant as well. Top mounted, non recessed Floyd Rose equipped guitars also resonate better than the recessed ones.
@@andyhayes7828 sounds like 2 things, String Tension & Signal Attenuation. A taught string will vibrate longer and ideally you want no loss on the vibration, eg nothing attenuated by it’s environment including the bridge and body.
@@bluwng we are just going to disagree
@@andyhayes7828 I don’t know what you are disagreeing on, such an open ended statement. It’s OK with me , I’m not looking for a debate.
I put graphite in the nut and 3 in 1 oil in the saddles, and it pretty much always stays in tune even if i abuse it with dive bombs and flutters
I've heard Guthrie Govan complain that graphite nuts don't hold up to constant use but Tony Iommi loves them. I think they're great! Glad they work for you, too!
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 it also depends on the strings you use. I used to use elixirs and the trem didn't stay in tune even with lubrication, now I switched to regular nickel wound 10-46 D'Addario strings and it stays in tune all the time
I put a trem stopper and it works fine for me even if i break a string it stays in tune
Which Trem Stopper? There are quite a few... even generic ones.
Thanks!
What was the weight of the body or complete build? I love light and thin bodies. I like the idea of the Ibanez S but prefer Strat bodies.
Unfortunately I didn't weigh it before I sold it, but I'd bet the resulting guitar was six pounds.
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 you just motivated me to build my own guitar. Thin lightweight Poplar, that sounds like a good starting point.
@@bluwng Get a thin trem, too! The brass block ones from GFS are really good, as are Wilkinsons.
Question: my Floyd floats. I can get it in tune but once I dive bomb, it’s goes flat when it returns to normal position. If I pull up on the bar it stays sharp when it returns to normal position. Any thoughts on how to fix this?
What you're experiencing is most likely friction between the knife edge and the posts. First, check for massive wear on the knife edges. If they look alright, check the posts. If they look ok, then good news! You can most likely fix the problem super easily. Change your strings and stretch them out well. Then, lubricate the knife edges and posts. 3-in-1 oil works, but you can also use Nut Sauce or some comparable lubricant. If you still have issues, change out your springs for new ones. You can also use products such as Super-Vee's Mag-Lok to ensure the trem returns to neutral after use.
There's a seller on ebay who sells SPOT ON black pickguards for the 78 franky..
I've started making them myself! Carved a template out of plywood.
What’s his name?
@@thrashmars8760 stikk1216..you may need to message him though. He has nothing for sale at the moment
I need a thick plate for strat trem
The point 3 in 1 is per Fender original instructions
Do you notice any differences playing with a brass nut as opposed to bone / graphtech. I've never played a brass nut Strat.
It's a biiiiiit brighter, but the big thing you'll notice is over time you'll actually see the strings start to hack their way through the brass if you use the vibrato a lot! Now, it takes a looong time, it's not as fast as with graphite, for example, but brass is not as hardy as bone. I love the appearance and the brightness and am willing to just know I'll have to replace it in a few years after heavy vibrato use.
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 thats exactly what Guthrie Govan said, he had graphtech nuts on his proto sig charvel, and testing it out on tour he found that he wore the tusq stuff down quickly, so he went back to good ol bone.
@@maxmustardman298 I love that video! His quote, "the unfortunately named nut sauce" is one of my favorite lines..
@@maxmustardman298 I’ve used white GraphTech TusqXL nuts (along with Big Bends Nut Sauce) for going on 10 years and I’ve never experienced any wear at all. Granted I’m no Guthrie Govan (no one is) and I don’t play upwards of 10 hours a day as he likely does, but I do play several hours a day over many years and I’ve never had to replace my TusqXL nuts once installed and cut correctly. Brass does impart a slightly brighter sound, but only on the open strings…fretted notes are unaffected by the nut material. Brass is quite soft and will wear significantly. Eddie only used a brass nut on two guitars-the maple neck Boogie Bodies neck on the Frankenstein that we see on the first album cover and the Ibanez Shark Destroyer AFTER the recording of the first album. He used a standard nut on the Destroyer when he used it in the club days and for the recording of the first album. All of his other non-locking, non-Floyd Rose guitars used standard nuts. The brass nut thing was a brief phase and only on those two guitars for a relatively brief period.
Is the guitar fully decked? If I dive on my brand new Strat with it decked the strings go sharp - it is not the nut because I can lift the string up out of it and it keeps at the same sharp pitch, if I do a bend on the string it will return back to pitch.
Yeah, string bends are the bane of the vibrato user. No matter which one you use, the problem seems to exist. There's a great video by Darrell Braun about the phenomenon. Eddie Van Halen worked around the issue by sometimes pushing the sharp string behind the nut after a bend, which seemed to work.
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 Well its a funny thing you see, and it's binding at the bridge. (I did see that DB video), so you can either have a choice of have a decked trem and it be stable for whammy use but not bends, or have it decked and stable for bends but not whammy use! I think you can get away with some minor vibrato but that's it, dip it or bend a whole-tone and the strings will shift on the bridge contact points, leading to this situation!
@@3rdtonefromthesun does it have the old style bent steel saddles? I've had many problems with the strings sliding around on top of them!
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 yes, look at the Highwood HG contoured!
What about a Wilkinson VS-100 with an LSR roller nut?
I love roller nuts! I've had several guitars with LSR nuts over the years, but they have a couple big flaws that can be deal-breakers for some people.
1. You have a limited choice of radius, string size, and nut width. LSR's, for example, only come in 9.5" (or 10", you can fudge it a bit) radius, 1 11/16" nut width, and don't like string gauges that are too light or heavy.
2. You have to keep 'em lubed or your strings will get stuck.
Again, I love 'em, always helped me stay in tune, but they're not for everyone. Oh! One more thing:
3. Once installed, that's it. The wood that has to be removed makes it a permanent mod because they have to be set closer to the bridge than a standard nut. You can go back to a normal nut if you don't mind having a little shim grafted back in.
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 So the brass is better than roller nuts?
@UCKis7odOabGunrSWUFZ6Z6g Matter of fact, I just built another Franky with standard, non locking, non staggered tuners and a roller string tree and it stays in tune better than the guitar in the video! I think the nut is particularly well slotted.
@@gabrieldelacruz4278 I like standard nuts over roller nuts because with enough lube, the strings glide right through and I don't have to do some permanent mod to my guitar.
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 I prefer locking tuners but to secure the strings even more even if wrapped.
Is that a van halen apron ??? I need this for bbqing
Overalls, actually!
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 ahah. I just looked on Amazon and couldnt find a van halen apron. Lol. But i did find a towel and a throw pillow. Lol. Cheers
@@mikeh5908 yeah, I had to hand paint mine
Oil good but I must say a lot of tuning issues or lack there of, may come down to just lubing all hardware AND most important- stability of the neck! I have all my strats setup the same only one can hold tuning in an uncanny stabilized way. It’s also got the fattest neck ! Coincidence? Nope Eddie’s VH1 strat held tune great and he didn’t install a FR until after swapping necks out- another coincidence? Nope
Also ,the Floyd rose wasn't available in 78
You better go back and listen to some early bootlegs. Eddie could not keep that guitar tuned at all, but I guess that get harder the more you drink.
It's true, I imagine getting into the moment during a show, getting plastered, and having a "just go wild and the audience will love it anyway" attitude goes a long way!
👍🏽👍🏽🇺🇸
9:27
how much is it
The guitar? Oh, that sold a while ago! I do build more all the time, though. I also build to order!
Also, 3-In-One oil is what Eddie used, but it really isn’t the best thing to use because it is messy and soaks into the wood around the nut causing problems later on. Big Bends Nut Sauce is really the best and absolutely the most common nut lubricant on the bench of professional guitar technicians around the world for decades now. I can’t recommend that product strongly enough.
I was thinking that using the 3 in 1 could be bad for the wood eventually, but cant you just use a toothpick or something to add a really small amount? I think my tech used big bends nut sauce (or something similar) and it kind of gunked up and left a gummy residue on the nut. Oh and my trem that used to stay in tune fairly well, now sends the treble strings way sharp unless I use the bar very lightly. Was never an issue before, but I recently had it set up for Eb and moved up a string gauge to 10s. I think I recognize your username from vhlinks so I am interested in your thoughts on the subject, you have a lot of great info in the guitar section on that site, many thanks for all you have shared.
@@GuyNarnarian Thanks very much for checking out my threads and posts on VHLinks…I’m always glad to hear it when anyone gets something out of them!
I will say with 100% certainty that the “gunk” did not come from the Big Bends Nut Sauce if that’s what your tech used…it is clear and basically invisible. It comes with ultra fine brushes to apply the very minimal amount that is necessary on all contact points including the nut, saddles and string tree. I caution against using 3-In-One Oil simply because Big Bends Nut Sauce is so much better. There are several factors that impact tuning stability on vintage style Fender vibrato systems. One thing that I can recommend is that you consider going to much lighter gauged strings. Eddie used lighter strings and I can tell you from experience it makes a world of positive difference in tuning stability and the overall feel and sound of the guitar. Also, the main culprit of tuning issues on any guitar is a nut that has been poorly cut. It takes real skill and not all techs have mastered the art.
Here is a VHLinks forum thread of mine that covers pretty much everything I know and what I’ve done on my Fender vibrato systems and also what I know about Eddie’s use of them: www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/threads/66343-Van-Halen-Fender-Vibrato-System-Use-amp-My-Tips-For-Keeping-It-In-Tune
Of course Eddie used many specific tuning offsets and you may have seen my thread on that subject. It’s a huge part of learning Eddie’s playing and it really makes the whole endeavor much more fun! www.vhlinks.com/vbforums/threads/62695-Van-Halen-tunings-with-Peterson-strobe-tuner-reference
@@AllenGarberGuitarFun Ok, who knows what he used, he is usually a good tech, I don't think he likes to drop 9's to Eb, because of the feel and its harder to set up, so he told me to put 10s on there. I actually use an EVH striped series with a FR for VH that I just got, but I still love my strat and like playing some VH songs on it as well! Plus I have always liked playing with the bar, its very useful for a lot of things in my opinion, not just crazy dive bombs. The same tech has the EVH striped series right now and I told him to drop the 9s to Eb so he has no choice this time. He used to use just graphite so I'd have to ask him. The 3 in 1 didn't really work, was too hard to apply with a toothpick and I didn't want to get messy with it. I'll probably just pick up some of the sauce. I noticed if I tune by B string flat and then hit the bar, it brings it to tune. However, if I bend the string it goes flat and I have to hit the bar again, I think this is fairly common. I used to use Elxir Polyweb 9's and never had tuning issues, maybe because they have a fairly thick coating. I have seen your posts on the offset tunings, been wanting to try those out, very interesting. I knew about flattening the B string to smooth out the major third dissonance but he went much further than that based on your findings. Many thanks for the feedback and links, I will check them out! I still haven't figure out how to post on Vhlinks, but thats another story.
@@GuyNarnarian I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised when you use Eddie’s original string gauges (9-11-15-24-32-40) on the Fender or Floyd Rose vibrato systems. I also recommend using the brown tortoise Fender Medium pick that Eddie used up until the 1984 tour. If you go the extra step of getting a Peterson Strobo HD series tuner and use the correct tunings, I promise you’ll be shocked at how well it all works!
@@AllenGarberGuitarFun Thanks, I used 9's before and it was fine, maybe I'll just go back. I need to learn how to do some of my own setup work (actually what led me to vhlinks, the Eb tuning on the EVH guitar felt like spaghetti so I was trying to see if there was info there on setups, I bought it used from someone who played in standard - big plus was it had an SD-78 already installed in it and he gave me the Wolfgang pickup as well), I think after all my research I could probably go back to 9's on the strat without taking it in. I just read the first link, funny that it mentions diving the bar would get him back to tune! The only difference is I have to tune up to a flat (probably 5 cents or less) B string, hit the bar, then it goes into tune, and from there hit the bar after every time I bend on the string. Lots of good info on those posts though, many thanks again for sharing. Technically the original sound is using the Fender trem system, and it does feel great and play well when you have it setup right.
Ed always used three springs on the strat trem.
images.app.goo.gl/6EqJpBF96mkgyX6bA
How do people buy these romours? And the "always" part is always mindboggling
@@fchampd4512 Sorry, was talking about when he used the strat trem. He used two springs with the old floyds, but when he got the frt-5 he put three springs I edited the comment to make it more clear.
@@obsessedwithguitars3157 thats a floyd rose trem...
@@fchampd4512 I was implying that it would be on a 6-point trem due to the fact the video is about fender trems. (The frt-1-4s are thought to have had two springs)
Vegatrem works much better. Pricier but better.
Horrible method. It works, leaving you in impossible situation of constantly diving the bar. That IS how evh did it though. You can tell because even after getting the Floyd, he was so used to it he continued usually even with the Floyd.
But it still sucks.
what happends with your mustache? it seems like half mustache.
I bleach it so it blends in with my pale skin.
Your guitar is not in tune at all
Jeez, I gave up after ten minutes, why not do something instead of just waffling on and on ,ffs