And then de is like grind is content we dont want you to finish everything immediately... WF is a weird game, nothing else has this clumsy shitty system of forced grind just to use what we already own but just because we want it doesnt mean theyll want to do it.
This system would also make it more viable for DE to make more fun mods that don't increase your damage and people would then proceed to actually try them out more. I would love this system so much.
Parazon mods kinda already function like how the "class" slots Brozime suggested. They're minor bonuses cuz they're for the parazon, but they're pretty customizable however you want. I don't see a reason weapons can't be the same way
It just needs one simple change, base damage mods need their own layer of modding and unlock either fully or at 50% at rank 0. We still need to get and rank mods like before.
@@635574 Okay, he's not even talking about the strength of the weapons right now. He's taking about the generic build that goes on every weapon. It's super pointless to have a "modding system" that gets you THE BUILD because then you might as well just make me level the weapon to the equivalent of 5 forma lvl 30 and then take out mods. We just want variety.
@@takreviews I was replying because I dont see guns getting the same approach as parazon and I have a different solution to better mod and gun balance: still use mods but rebalance system where a gun would stack both rank and mod bonuses. This would result in less reliance on massive numbers from each damage and mult mod but they still directly increase total damage. It would be effective bandaid on early progression rng, and to reduce it more essential mod rewards could be put on first time completion of certian planet nodes. Im not suggesting we change existing balance but just make it easier to get there, and then any further rebalance will be easier.
The trick with making a mod system is to either avoid damage entirely with every option or incorporate it into all of them. Warframe's nodding system is basically ruined already, without a total overhaul.
Yea, I would much more prefer it to be, although simple, a side "perk" system that allows us to have 2,3 mods installed. While the main dmg increase would come from directly upgrading the the weapon itself.
I'm in favour the incorporate it into all of them, personally. I think it's more of a matter of the "class 2" & "class 1" mods just aren't balanced to keep up.
Geeeet rid of it. Dump it all in the Atarii ET landfill. Mods as a concept is incompatable with how DE wants weapons to perform. I'd rather weapons have baked-in stats that can be pitched high or low on a scale. Customizable but not "trading cards". The potential to balance weapons appropriately, and efficiently.
There is no change you can make to modding at all that wouldnt birth some kind of always used meta. So long as there is a choice, there is a best choice, and you can't get around it. Even if modding was removed entirely, there would still be a gun meta that maximizes dps. Remove raw dps from modding, and you chose the mods that make the gun the most braindead. The only problem with modding, is that players are making it too efficient. And they will always tend towards the most efficient.
Imagine if modding was actually changed and we have mods like: - Thermal vision on sniper scopes - Mark enemy head when aiming - Nagantaka has reload speed bonus when killing with headshots right? Make a mod out of it. - Small radial stun when reloading from empty - Gain a damage bonus when magazine is close to empty (max 15%, weapon must have at least X magazine capacity) - Shot enemies are marked with dots and can be seen through walls or on mini map
@@icriinside9305 Nah, unique weapons keep their traits but add more small stuff that's trivial and doesn't directly affect the damage like the ones I listed as mods or something. I've been playing Borderlands lately and I can think of even more stuff. - On critical headshot: Bullet ricochets to nearest enemy. - More detailed adjustable scope zoom - Mod that makes you hit and stun an enemy with your weapon if said weapon doesn't have an alt fire. Yesterday I was even thinking what if they removed weapon ammo pools and the ones that have a rechargeable mag like the Fulmin or Cycron could have a small damage bonus (sth like 10-20%) that's on a cooldown whenever you empty your mag to compensate. (just a quick theory, might open up a can of worms) Make projectile based weapons hit scan but deal less damage or consume x2 ammo per shot. For god's sake allow latron rifles to switch zoom levels like the Veldt already. Add a mod that while zooming with sniper scopes you get a radar of sort that pulsates every 3-5s revealing enemies on the minimap within X meters or in the direction you are aiming.
if it isnt modding for aesthetics, there will always be a set amount of "required" mods used by people trying to play optimally. You cannot make meaningful change to the modding system and avoid having a most used meta, because if each and every choice isnt exactly identical to the other, there will be a best option. And in order for modding to be a progression system, there has to be worse options.
@@ThreeGoddesses I was thinking of something like the railjack modding we have now. You have one set of modding slots for the stats, another for tactical mods. The mandatory mods are still there but you can have more of a personal touch with different buffs that don't directly impact your weapon's dps.
Has been one of my largest issues with war frame. The mods are not modular, it’s just a random pain point of grind that does nothing to interest me in trying new builds, cause there’s no reason to try anything new.
Like current modding system does nothing for the game; new players are scarred because they see 50000 mods and dont know what to do And anyone else ignores it and just use the same 40 actual good mods. Honestly modding feels like an ikea shelf, you build it the only way you can, and at the end you have the choice to put the shelf down vertically or horizontally, and that's about all the choice you'll get.
That's because people don't know how to think for themselves anymore. All they see is thousands of people telling them "this is what you have to use" and noone saying "just use what you have and do content that is relevant to your level, that is how you get better mods and THAT will let you look through them, see what they can do for you, scrap extras into endo to upgrade the ones you like." Warframe is actually one of the few games that isn't just a Start game > rush to the end > only do endgame. Warframe is actually amazing in that some of the things you get fairly early are actually still later game viable. Are you taking your mk-1 braton into steel path? I sure hope not, but how many of us still use augur, gladiator, stances, etc that we got in the first couple of weeks of playing? The whole thing with there being such a big pool of mods is that they build up over time. If you get overwhelmed then take some time to sit down and go through them. If you want help then ask, but warframe promotes those two things very well. Asking for help because the community or exploring the mechanics to see what works for you.
I know UA-cam might not pay the bills as well as streaming, but this 3 hour video is honestly a succinct 30 min video dragged into 3 hours by the dumbest people in your chat being the loudest people in your chat. That said, I really like your idea. Especially since the primaries and secondaries are in need of a buff. If they add more powerful mods that would either fit in your innate category or C1 category, then we might even hit a better place where the innates chosen wouldn't be automatic, and then the C1 and C2 would also be tough choices. It would even be better for Warframe content creators, because right now, nobody that's not a noob needs to look up mod builds when a new weapon comes out. We just plunk the same mods we always use into the gun and go on our way. If DE made a bunch of good innates to choose from, I'd personally do a lot more research when new weapons come out to see what mod/innate combos seem to work the best.
Coming back to this video after the railjack update hits to say that the UI for this is in the game now with the Plexus. This would be really easy to implement.
@@635574 still watching the video , I think his idea of innate modding in general is better . Also I don’t really get your point , it’ll just make things for personal liking
@@carletpierre1895 he also wants to keep the mods, which makes them a major part of power progression. The idea of just deleting base and mult was opposed in the past because it was meant as just giving every weapon full damage without mods and that will make the start of the game super easy even before players get and use mods. Im not saying he wants that, just DE heard and abandoned that simple getting rid of 2 slots idea.
@@635574 You weren't listening then, because he said you still gotta aquisiton and level those mods. Some of the basic ones get given to you through tutorials or whatever but you still gotta dump your endo into them, noobs don't have endo. And they still need to know which inates make their gun make biggest boom and which class 1 make their gun make biggest boom. And which class 2s make their gun make cool noise and so the thing it do the way I like it to do. You aren't putting enough credit in the hands of new players sure they inexperienced in the game but they aren't stupid.
also, sounds like an interesting system, but we all know the entire community will just forget everything about the problems with modding as soon as there's a content drop.
Do they? The current modding system is *the* reason why new rewards are either top tier or never used, same for new weapons. It drastically affects the time before such content becomes stale
@@thanatosdriver1938 That's one of the only interesting things about the game though. I never would have started playing without it. It's a tough spot as modding gets extremely boring once you've been playing for a while, but without it this is a very unoriginal game, most of which is almost a decade old in terms of design, and the lion's share of the newer stuff is just the old modes with lipstick on. One thing's for sure: WF needs to evolve or it won't survive.
I think you could do this in a way simpler way. Just add an extra row of mods to the current menu and divide mods into damage and utility mods. 6 mod slots are for damage 4 are for utility, you put weapon specific mods in the utility slot to make them more useful and unique.
Not to mention some guns don’t just need an orokin reactor, that’s mandatory, but also need like 5-6 or even 7 forma to be able to function the way you want it to for the content that you play.
There's a simple way and then there's Brozime's way. This entire system seems pretty good but you're basically just doubling up on mods except one set of mods is for every weapon while there are niche mods for the main weapon. Most people just wanted Mandatory Mods to be innate or linked to Weapon Lvl. So Damage, Crit, Crit Chance, Status Chance and Multishot are tied to Weapon Rank much like Warframes has Bonuses when Ranking up.
that's any twitch chat for you, there's always 1 or 2 loud guys with bad takes, not a big deal tho, vast majority are usually chill and that's why you don't hear him calling them out
It's just someone that is happy to "get new weapon, go brrrrr" knowing that the standard build works everytime...same people that use a crit build on a Kuva Ogris and then cry it's weak lol
@@Lord_Phoenix95 Then you just flood the table with elemental mods and stuff like Argon Scope, Augur mods, Gladiator mods etc. You just made new top tier mods by making the current ones intrinsic to the weapon, not fixing the problem and incurring in power creep at the same time. And whenever the weapon gets forma'd it becomes useless until you level it back up by not using it.
while brozime isnt wrong with the builds being basically the same, that problem doesnt really become a problem until you play the game for as long as brozime has. what he wants for the game sounds super far away since they keep doubling down on railjack which has nothing to do with the main part of the game anyways
Play a game or two you haven't gotten around to chewing through and expect to dislike. I went through The Outer Worlds, LoU2, and BioShock 2 off Zero Punctuation compilations.
@@sin21ful I usually listen to long form videos when I'm doing work. Gaming not so much, as can't split my attention when I'm playing games. Warframe is the exception though, as you don't need a brain to play it.
One thing is thinking up all kinds of ideas and another is what the developers think is good for the game, what the company thinks is good for revenue and what's actually implementable or worth spending over and implementing, anyone can come up with a hundred different ways they think can improve the game for any game
@@Lord_Phoenix95 it’s not about vision, it’s about what brings in more money. You think it’s a coincidence that pretty much every single content drop in years was rushed, grindy and disrespectful to players’ any prior time and resource investments content island designed to milk as many hours and plat in earlier days/weeks, only to be patched to be bearable later on “based on player feedback”, yet same “player feedback” is somehow completely forgotten when a next content island is introduced? Bunch of good people on a team won’t change things overall. Higher-ups simply won’t let them.
DE makes there game according to there design non of the players business clearly you play it because you like it just let DE make there own damn game plus most of his ideas are dumb in my opinion
God it's so annoying when the people who like sitting in endless missions for 20 hours act entitled and talk like they're the "real pros" just because they can afford to not have a life despite what they're doing being meaningless
This kind of comments are just the complete lack of understanding. I for example don't go on long missions(only 1 or 2 times to prove to some schmuck that my modding is good), but I modded my gear to be able to do it always if needed/wanted. And to give an exaple of needed/wanted - when ss ground was on and I did only random teams most of them died or couldn't defend or could not do damage, and that was ONLY lv140-180 enemies at the end.When I modded for harder content I felt confident and carried most of the squads there and I wasn't annoyed that they didn't do enough.And it was "needed" because most people didn't have the arcanes and wanted them. So no, you DON'T HAVE TO do 8+ hour missions to be good at modding but you have to strive to mod that way so anytime there is even a slight need for that you will be ready. And even if you are talking about lower levels or "normal" missions there is nothing that will make the game not work correctly if you mod for harder content. I don't get this anti-crowd that just bashes on people who tried to make their mods/gear or setups perform at it's maximum, isn't this the point of the power leveling in every game?
FYI it takes only 2 hours to reach level cap.. this dude Brozime is out of touch and whatever he says only proves that. Nobody with a good understanding of the game even respect him anymore.
@@YoopsYoops Do you not know a game mode called Disruption exists with faster enemy scaling? So like I said, 2 hours of disruption can take you to level-cap and 2 hours is like half of the time I spend playing video games in a day. If that's a lot of time, you can always extract earlier if it makes you confident with your builds. 7 hours in a single mission is laughable.
Shit like this is why Brozime if my favorite warframe creator. His passion for the game is obvious because you wouldn't spend this much time trying to improve the game if you didn't care. I'm similar in that I have about 4 pages of typed-up notes currently of my ideas to improve Elite: Dangerous...
Exactly, the only modding variety we got are "the build" and maybe a meme build like highest fire rate. Going with the proposed system you could still make the meme build full of the innate fire rate mods stacked up.
Split the modding into three categories: Barrel, handle, receiver. Each can be modded separately, and only certain mods go on each. Add new mods too, because the current pool is pretty lackluster. Remove the on kill ones imo, and multishot doesn't really work thematically. Can't touch multishot though or people would riot.
If you want something more balanced might just 2x damage and multishot just divides it into more fragments for that crit and status chance multiplication.
Chat for an hour: “Man, are you gonna edit this and put this up on UA-cam?” “Maybe.” “You should upload this to UA-cam.” “Yeah, I probably will.” “Aw man, this needs to be on UA-cam.” “F- it, I’ll upload the stream” Me Liking this and unliking it just so I can Like it all over again
I like the idea, the problem is this would require intense community feedback and given past experiences DE isnt to keen on that. It would be very interesting to see what people come up with this system instead of the "Numbers go up" =good we have
With the release of the Plexilus, which has different modding category screens (some of which take no drain), this seems quite a bit more doable. Nothing would necessarily even need to change visually, besides the tabs for each class of mod. Otherwise it's just tweaks to drop locations for innate mods (for whichever ones aren't just given by default) and picking what goes where.
Any game with numbers will have best in slot items. That's how math works. Limiting slots to certain mods only increases the restrictions placed on players. Mid-clip reloads make reload speed objectively better than equal magazine capacity. 500.1% damage will always be superior to 500% damage, no matter how small of a difference it is. And people are going to be particular about it. UA-camrs are going to be particular about it. The only way to make a good mod system is to make everything fit its own particular niche like they try with the Warframes. As it is now, who will ever need more than three secondary weapons: one set of knives for stealth, one rapid fire gun for priming, and the grimoire for caster frames? Let me make a couple examples of potentially good unique weapons. A secondary knife that gets lodged in the enemy on alt fire, dealing damage if you then proc impact status. Suddenly impact has a use. Weapon that deals extra damage if you don't crit. Suddenly you don't want crit chance mods. A set of claws that increases the crit level by one for each status they would inflict. Very chaotic weapon with a unique modding experience. A gunblade that shoots lightning pods with alt fire, turning elemental status effects into their alchemy duplicates. New modding potential! A sword that guarantees extra drops if you kill an enemy with no status effects. Nice solo farm, and it doesn't want you to build status at all! Boom, two minutes and I came up with five weapons with unique interactions with the game systems, and want you to mod and play in a way that's quite different from 'the' build. Don't make modding more contrived, make weapons more interesting.
I remember when the Soma Prime dropped and the META at the time was either Soma or Boltor. You had a super nice crit weapon vs a meat grinder that could use status. It was a choice with consequences unlike some later weapons.
Idk i only noticed it was meh when I came. Noobs who think all crits is better than actual dps or if they just farmed low levels, maybe it was meta to them.
The main issue with it is that he isn’t really thinking of how this would effect NEW players. Having inate extra damage would absolutely fuck over the early game scaling. It would be piss easy for a new player.
But its not like that, you need to get and rank the mods first new players still do the same things its just we skip the level process to slot damage mods, the other mpd slots woul need to unlock with levels now.
If you had an illustration to go with your points I think I would have understood better, but just listening to your ideas and trying to read the run down as you showed it was hard for me to imagine how it would work.
I feel like a way of making use of some of the "increase damage in this category by x% would be to make them conversion mods instead. So you go from +120% Slash Dmg. to Convert 50% of Dmg. to Slash. Same with all the general IPS mods and Stastus+Ele Dmg. mods. This lets you make a baseline for your damage in your intrinsics, then focus the damage in your general mods.
the quote "neuron activate, throw glaive prime, number good" is ingrained into my brain currently overall a very intriguing discussion i wouldn't be opposed to the mechanics of at all, & think it'd be a lot healthier than the current system
Am 2 hours into the video and am loving what your talking about. As a MR30 this would be a welcome change and give a reason to use the all them mods that we don't use. Right now everyone build is the same and there's ntn different about it.
Just move the current mod screen to innates and keep the capacity there, but capacity just starts at 30 (60 if you potato). There you go, forma & catalysts stay relevant so DE doesn't lose money but we still get our better system.
Or make the same change like standing cap, level 0 is 1/2 the total and potato just starts at 30 and gives 60 cap. Would make MR15 more relevant for unpotatoed fodder weapons too.
I agree that mandatory mods shouldn't be part of the mod system, but I don't think the innates should be per weapon - the very fact that you would change them on a weapon-by-weapon basis indicates they are not mandatory and are choices. The part of the orbiter for innates should be a universal weapon damage upgrade section. Really like the idea of Class 1 and Class 2 mods, any modding rework would need to have a way to "force" you to use QoL mods, otherwise they won't be used at all and the fun they bring goes away. Making status and crit innate because you always choose crit isn't addressing the core of the issue; status needs to be buffed. If status and crit were balanced, then it would be a choice per weapon whether you go crit, status, or hybrid, and that's what the system needs imo. I think after DE addresses the melee vs primary balance issues (hopefully in a good way), this needs to be the next big conversation for the community. I like your solution, but I think it adds a lot of complexity to a system that's already hard for new players. If innates were global buffs per account, that would streamline the whole thing and make it easier to understand.
I took it as the extra dmg was an ENTIRE weapon class upgrade in the inates section. So serration would just increase the dmg of rifles "inately" or intrinsically (imo would be better if he called it intrinsics lol).
i havent seen the whole vid yet but i totally tooootally agree with this. ive always found it so weird that mods like spring loaded chamber, agile aim, tactical reload and twitch exist when _every single slot_ of your weapon is either taken up by a pure damage mod, or its useless. a system at least similar to this would be absolutely phenomenal and would genuinely make modding more fun. could also give them some opportunities to add even more gimmicky fun mods too, like weapons have x life steal, aim to see enemies through walls, shoot allies to heal them, gain small amounts of fire rate per kill, or even more of those joke types that spawn flowers on impact, like for example enemies exploding in (purely visual) confetti on death, almost making ephemera esque mods for weapons. that would now genuinely become useable id like the same for warframes too tbh. straight up power/ability customisation mods, then a fun category for stuff like ice spring, motus signal, natural talent, streamlined form, synth reflex and undying will, and make even more fun mods like abilities inflicting vfx, a triple jump, etc unrelated but i also really hate how elements work in this game and wish it was streamlined so that impact, puncture and slash were the 3 elements all enemy resistances were based around (think borderlands with just health, just shields, just armour. no weird confusing unnecessary variants) and actual elements were more for fun. youd use radiation to confuse enemies, electricity to stun, gas to cause clouds etc but not to directly do damage
We all know that rivens are a big part of warframe and especially a big part of warframes economy. That was a decision DE made when they introduced them and now they can only really make smaller changes to the modding system within the limitations of the already existing system to not completely fuck over peoples investment of tons of time and also real money
I feel like if you spent the time to go get some schooling or courses under your belt you could legitimately get a job in game development to work on game balance. You have the dedication and vision to see all this stuff at such an advanced level and the ability to communicate it to people super well. Just a thought honestly.
I dig this idea a lot. I wouldn't mind if they even took half of the ideas here, like... maybe we still have to level stuff up and it's useless. But open up modding so that it's actually about personalization *and* optimization? That'd be so rad
So Innates are basically... 8 new slots with no cost limits or MR gating slots are dedicated to mods that are purely beneficial to DPS and then you get 4 conditional DPS increase mods, and 4 whatever else mods? (modified by weapon level/viability?) Yeah, I'm ok with that system. They could add new whacky dumb mods that I'd swap out my whatever slots for just to fuck around. In this current system I can't afford to put in 1 utility mod for primaries and expect it to do anything useful. It's also hands down the most Forma hungry category, with very little reward for dumping them.
This bugged me for a long time, ignore the hecklers in chat With serration/multishot for example being in the game, you basically have 6 empty slots you can mod, it's all an illusion except very few weapons that don't benefit from multishot like afentis and javlok. an easy way to fix this would be to compromise for the 2 intrinsics and 6 slots but give us way more variation to those critical mods already have the critical delay, would be nice to see more nightmare/amalgam alternatives inst of +120% multishot you get +180% multishot -50% reload speed / +100% multishot +30% projectile speed and so on inst of serration/amalgam serration, you get +155% damage +40% reserve ammo / +145% +20% clip size and so on, so easy from the attributes we already have but rarely use because opportunity cost not necessarily because they are useless
incarnon weapons are the closest thing to what you're recommending on the other hand. per-weapon-basis and you can choose between 15 most basic upgrades (damage/firerate/reload - penetration/clip size/crit damage - multishot/status/fire rate - and so on). this limits a bit how you can combine them tho, say i want to build for both crit and multishot like now, what if they are on the same branch?
These videos are what I am here for I love this stuff the discussions I wish you had a podcast like this maybe monthly ahh that's the dream just brozime talking about whatever he is passionate about that month
This seems like a system I’d want to test on new player impressions. Compare this to how off putting this kind of system is vs just increasing mod slots and capacity(which would essentially solve the problem in a similar way). As a long term player I don’t mind learning a new system and transitioning, but all too often I hear newer and tentative players being offput by the apparent complexity of the game. Maybe having mods chunked together and tiered would make it look simpler, maybe it looks more complicated. I imagine that the free mod space from the current system gives inexperienced players paralysis of choice
He should make a visuak guide, its not very clear at first. But basically new players would first see the base mods and once they learn thosr the next layers become relevant, perhaps hide those sections in UI until mr2 or 3.
This seems like a pretty similar idea to what the Plexus ended up being, where the innates would be similar to the "integrated" mods, and then your type-1's and 2's would be similar to the battle mods on the plexus, except with 8 more slots instead of 3, and some of them are type-1 only
@@635574 Making them scale doesn't solve the core issue, bruh. It makes the build still be the same on every weapon, when I forma the gun its still trash unless I'm Mr 30, when I get a new gun I already know what the end game build is gonna look like so whats the point in even having builds if they're all the same
I was farming railjack while i had this video on the background. When i alt tabbed to do something else i had to do a double take because i was NOT prepared to see Brozime as an anime character.
watching this a year after the original discussion, I still think this system needs to be implemented. Galvanized mods are just class 1 mods that are better than the previous ones, similar to the prime vs normal mods. Primary and secondary arcanes do add SOME diversity to building guns, because you can drop serration, but that's pretty much it.
So to summarize take all the mods we always use (serration, split chamber, point strike) make them inherently equipible on all weapons regardless of level. Then take all of the other mods that get rarely used and make them equipible i a separate mod section on the weapons that is based on levels. Reasoning being that this would allow all weapons to be usable from the start rather than going to grind on one mission node just to make your weapon useful, but also not negating the need/desire to level them up by still using the old system for the other mods. I like this a lot. It increases customization and rewards players for the work they put in early on and cuts down on the often boring and monotonous mid game grind. It would allow players to focus more on the whole game rather than constantly focusing on one node because their weapons aren’t leveled.
Even a bit over a year later we having similar conversations about modding and the toxic dismissal of other player concerns is still the same. I guess we should just accept what the game gives us if we don't like don't log in don't play
Unfortunately that's true and it's really depressing to see just how many Jack wagon's are in the boat of "none of this matters, you're over complicating it" when the ideas are already laid out in the most convenient way possible for them to just implement it in someway.
Ok so I'd divide the "inates" in half "Raws" (4 slots) = Serration, Multishot, Heavy Cal, and the Crit mods "Elementals" (4 slots) = you know what they are The reason I'd divide it is because old no crit weapons can compete slightly better since crit guns don't get to have 3 elementals and heavy cal for more dmg now both weapons are forced to have 4 elementals and 4 raw dmg mods And also it hurts way more to get a Riven for meta guns as it would be in the Raws category so once again you have to sacrifice one of the crit mods
The implementation of rivens equates to D.E. stopping warframe from bleeding to death by cramming dried shit in the wound and saying..." Your welcome".
A lot of weapons I just never used because I didnt want to level them multiple times just for me to see what the weapon can do. There are probably lots of cool weapons that just dont get any use because they get ignored by players since they dont wanna invest forma
I feel like the most likely way this would be implemented is to have an exilus mod page where they could do the class 1 and 2 type exilus mods, but they would still lock the QOL stuff behind the adapter. DE makes way too much money from people buying forma and exilus adapters for plat to remove that revenue stream. They might have the exilus page have its own capacity tho, but they will still probably make you forma that weapon 6 times if you wanna fit all them damage mods on.
I also like this and is rhe least work, just split it into 2 types of exilus and maybe some dual type mods and lock some slots with dispo and a consumable as well.
What they could do is add a new tab to the operator called "Weapon Expertise" that has you level up nodes like primary dmg/cc/sc, secondary dmg/cc/sc, melee dmg/cc/sc, then change the element mods to do something like change 100% of impact/puncture/slash damage to cold/heat/tox/electric
I keep thinking that our operator should have a 'Core Four' mods, where I can always have 4 mods that I'm never going to want to remove, such as Vitality Rage Flow and something like either Adaptation or Equilibrium, leaving me able to have health, energy, and energy economy on any frame I use, then each frames 8 mod slots, 1 exilus and an aura are actually for the frame to shine. I also have a huge rework idea for focus that basically gives new passives to allow you to negate the need for un-Primed mods in your builds, again allowing you to actually mod a Warframe to be unique instead of just 'Cookie cutter build A or B'.
I really love this idea, but I think there shouldn't be a mod menu for the 8 innate mods for each weapon, I think that'd be too strong, but I think there should be 1 singular 10 slot universal weapon mod menu which contains all of the class 1 weapon mods including what weapon they're particular to. So, you can max out your melee and leave your guns useless, you can max out your primary but leave your other weapons useless, you can max out your secondary but leave your other weapons useless, or you can find a balance between your weapons depending on what you need most. Leave the Status Chance status mods in the individual weapon mod menus, but move the pure status mods into the universal weapon mod menu.
Great video. Excellent perspective and actual legitimate solutions. Glad that you haven't changed. Thanks for uploading this to youtube. I would love more longform content like this.
For all of the dnd fans out there, modding kinda reminds me of the issues that the warlock has where you usually just go for all the eb invocations and have room for a couple of fun ones.
Despite the fact that melee modding for the most part is just using blood rush condition overload i still find it more enjoyable and varied to mod melees than primaries
I think the reason mods work for things like warframes and railjack is because for those, the different abilities mean the builds are so varied, you barely ever have two frames with exactly the same build, but the problem with weapons is weapons are basically unusable without certain boosts and any differences are usually negligable anyway because they all do the same thing (throw bullet, make damage). In slight contradiction, the railjack is usually really samey, but you only have one anyway, so it doesn't matter
basically this system maintains the "I've earned my build, now I can use it on every weapon" feeling the game has now, makes it EASIER to use because it's not locked behind levelling the weapon, but still lets you further customize the weapon to how you want it to be. Every weapon has its own strengths that can be built toward separate from the "meta build" you farmed out over the months
You can accomplish the same effect by increasing the mod slots from 8 to 16 and mod capacity from 60 to 120 and you class the mods the way you said. Thus you don't need a new system and at the begining you start with more base mod capacity like how they increased the daily standing limit. It's not the best way to do it but it might me simpler to do it with decent amount of upsides.
8 minutes so far and I buy the idea. As I understand: Innate - 8 direct universal damage mods - dmg, multi, crits, elements (fire rate?) as a separate modding tab. Class 1 - up to 4 conditional/indirect dps mods - faction, reload, aoe, weapon special, punch through, fire rate, etc And class 2 - up to 5 exilus mods, right?
I'd make serration innate and then rework/buff status effects other than viral, heat, and slash, such that its worthwhile to use them. Also, I'd buff the corpus and infested- right now we only build to beat the grineer, because they're the only faction that doesn't get trappled.
I think the thing people don't realize, is the "+X% damage on Y weapon type" mods have a very special place in warframe's progression, other mods have gained its property as well which is a problem, but what these straight up damage mods do is act as your personal "Damage go up" stat as a player, except it eats up a customization slot. A new player gets their early power gains by buffing up their pure damage mods. The next boost they start getting come from the multishot mods, then come elementals and crit. Then they get their next set of boosts by getting things like their satus+elementals, their primed mods, their nightmare mods that are worth using, their "combo scaling" mods for melee, their cursed mods from Deimos Orokin Derelict Vaults, then finally we start moving into their weirder augments. The same thing exists on warframes BTW, in the form of your basic "+X% to Y power stat" mods as well as the health, armour, and shield mods. The issue currently is the foundational mods don't get phased out for something else in a circumstantial way, because the numbers are too big. I'd give up 10% of my net base damage if it could also give me an decrease to recoil on some weapons, or 10% less net base damage for faster fire reload. The only place this trade off exists is for elementals, do you go with a 90% or a 60% with 60% more status? Well at least you _used_ to ask that, now you just say "What combo gets me a primed elemental mod with two 60/60s that leads to viral+heat for this weapon class?"
I mostly just want build veriety and every type of weapon being worth using some way or one other. So having inaits so it not such a pain to level stuff and to possibly give more options to build your mod setup is definately the right direction. Though having an inbuilt combo counter similar to that of snipers but, for hits or kills would also, be great. Each weapon having a combo counter alone that decreases in damage as you let the counter decay would mean you would not necessarily need a combo duration mod either. Combined with traits were required mods can be used with other situational mods is just a good idea.
Also for people to better understand, what brozime is essentially advocating for here is weight classes for mods. In boxing featherweights don't fight heavyweights for a reason, it's because one will definitely win 99 percent of the time and it's not the featherweight. You cant expect ammo drum to compete with serration for the same slot, they're not even close to the same value. That's the problem he's trying to solve.
Consider this for melee, too: you make things like Collision Force do a guaranteed status proc of its type on heavy attack. That way you can have a mace them sends enemy corpses flying on heavy attacks.
As a new player I always thought rivens were really cool because it was a way to make certain weapon builds more unique or at the very least make you feel like a king having one on you’re weapon. It’s a level of customization that isn’t necessary but makes you feel closer to the weapons you love. And it makes crappy weapons viable.
The thing you're noticing is that mods need to be difficult to mathematically optimize to make for meaningful choice. If balanced well, you don't need to segregate these mods from power either. Right now it's just not balanced well. Which is better - more damage or more AoE? It's an extremely difficult optimization problem, and it varies in different content. It depends on enemy density, enemy priority, damage breakpoints, etc. And this also extends to effects that don't "increase damage". Often they actually do increase damage! The point of stabilizing the grakatas is usually that you're increasing your damage by actually putting more bullets where you want to. Or if you can already control your spray, maybe you want it because it reduces the effort that takes. But either way you're still optimizing it! It's not this wishy-washy "preference" thing. There's a reason why you have the preference: it's that you're trying to optimize something. And the reason people have different preferences is either because it is difficult to determine the correct answer or because people have different abilities - some players might find it easier to control the spray of a gun. If balanced even a little bit well, mod segregation is not nearly as important. The problem is that the balance of the mods in Warframe is terrible. Serration is so powerful that virtually no mod with a less straightforward optimization calculation can compete. But it's easy to imagine balance where that doesn't happen. Imagine it was, say, a 25% damage increase, and you were looking at that versus accuracy on the grakata. Which is better? Well, if accuracy gets you more than 25% more of the bullets into the enemies, it's better. And that depends on enemy density, enemy priority, breakpoints, personal aiming ability, how valuable range is to you, etc. The balance is just very bad. The numbers are outrageously huge, and it gets even worse because there are so many of them that are not just straightforward damage increases, they're damage increases that combine exponentially.
I agree in principle, but as unlikely as it is that DE would implement something akin to the system featured in this video, what you’re proposing is even less likely. The stratification of mods is really just a (semi-) pragmatic shortcut to at least a semblance of parity (within each strata, rather than across the board, as would be ideal).
@@balewaif Segmentation can absolutely help. I'm definitely not saying that it's a bad idea to segment them. But it's crucial to understand what the actual problem is and what you need to actually do to achieve diversity of outcomes. This problem frequently gets framed in really distorted ways, like preference vs. optimization, damage vs. utility, etc., and it leads to ineffective solutions, like segmentations that don't actually resolve the problem. Imagine you have a simple situation: there are only two mod slots, and everyone is taking the same two damage mods. Separating it into a damage and a utility slot doesn't itself resolve the situation - if you just do that naively, you usually just end up with everyone taking the same damage mod and the same "utility" mod. You haven't actually gotten at the root problem - although that's not to say that you haven't put yourself in a position where you would be better equipped to deal with the root problem once you DID understand what it was. Although it's not actually true that segmenting the mods allows you to focus on balance within each segment. That's only true if the benefits of the mods ACROSS the segments, the contribution each mod makes to optimizing whatever a person's cost function is, combine purely linearly. And that is basically never going to be true. Segmenting them can definitely be a useful strategy, but you still end up needing to do significant work balancing across the segments, not just within them.
Yes i know theres basically no mod balancing, corrupted gun mods have always been trash not worth slotting, you think its easy to balance but DE's problem is they've been sailing witout a compass for years. I dont think change in balance is halpening unless they gey a balance person actually making some changes.
I believe that argon scope etc. should work on the next shot (or maybe 3 on assault rifles) so that consistancy would be rewarded, not just "lucky" headshots. Also the corrupted mods should be more of a thing, like +300%crit -90% fire rate.
The one thing I will say about companion modding: As it stands now, Sentinels/MOAs have a major modding advantage in that their damage and their utility are split across two different mod screens, with a total of 19 slots for mods. Pets are much weaker, being limited to only 10 slots for both utility and damage. The solution? Give pets an 'exalted' melee that gives 8 slots to mod their melee attacks, and move all of their attack-altering mods to that system. Special attacks, like kavats' armor stripping attack, would still be part of the pet modding, not their melee, but Bite/Maul, the pet elementals, the mod that increases how many targets a kavat strikes, etc. would all move to the new 'melee' mod screen. That way they can actually have a build, instead of two builds crammed into 10 slots.
Modding can be summed up in 2 concepts: diminishing returns and opportunity cost. The rationale behind all builds is the same. You try to get a bump for as many of the different damage multipliers as you can. Even if you take away base-damage, crit chance, crit damage, and multishot mods, you just shift towards the same kind of mod combination. The only alternative I see to make modding into something different is to make mods into side-grades like what we have with Conclave.
They could always just add way more exilus slots and make way more mods into exilus mods. You'd have to give each weapon more mod capacity but that's not necessarily a bad thing
I would only keep mods that change the weapon behavior, but with heavy tradeoff in order to be reasonably sure that the damage doesn't change too much. By that I mean if you are a very accurate shooter you would want a more powerful weapon but with lower fire rate in order to take advantage of your play style, but if you are not as good you would prefer higher fire rate and lower damage to have more shots actually reach your target. In this case, having mods that have stats like +damage/-firerate and -damage/+firerate done in a way that preserve total damage would be optimal so that every player would have weapons that feel good to use for their individual playstyle. All other mods should be put in other limited slots or be innate, otherwise you will still end up with a more conditional and annoying optimal setup.
I'm gonna be honest was listening to this like it was a podcast and when looked down for the first time in like 2 hours I saw brozime as an anime character and was like "I have no idea what happened but I'm here for it"
If it was me, how I would do it: Innate Nodes: Each weapon has nodes with ranks, like a mod, for certain stats. Let's say five ranks each for Damage, CC, CD, Multishot, Firerate, Status, and the innate damage types of the weapon (Slash, impact, Heat etc.) Increasing the rank increases that stat by a percentage. You have a certain amount of nodes you can have on at a time. The amount of ranks you can have active at a time is tied to weapon lvl and default mod cap, so as your MR increases you have access to closer to the max amount of ranks/nodes without having to rank up the weapon. Now the only things mods will do is change the behavior of the weapon. Mods like Brozime's Class 1 that give conditional stat buffs are still mods, but Point Strike, Serration, etc, do not exist. Elemental Mods ADD nodes/ranks of that element, but you have the same amount of nodes available so you have to sacrifice putting them somewhere else, it's not free. There are additional NEW mods that give additional affects, such as changing the gun to Full Auto or burst or semi auto, adding aoe splash damage on hits, other versions of Hunter Munitions (chance to proc heat/toxic/radiation etc on crit or hit), aoe status proc on reload. Rivens also add extra nodes for the stats they effect (extra damage, critical node, etc.) or remove nodes for negatives.
I know this video is old but basically just built an Intrinsics type system that affects all weapons we own. That sounds incredible. Then we can spend our time trying to customize by preference rather than necessity. EDIT: The Twin Vipers Wraith is the perfect example of why this is a good idea. The damage output of the weapons CAN be usable. Despite that, the weapons are so painful to use it's not worth it over any other option. They have too little total ammo, magazin is too small, too inaccurate, too much recoil. If you tell me I have 5 slots to solve those issues AND still get my damage mods? All of a sudden that becomes a potential option over competitors like the Akstilleto or Aksomati or whatever.
i like the idea of innates but seperating mods into classes will probably give us another meta like this one where a build is very limited in what you use. what i would do is have innates then have the current moding system seperate but then add a BUNCH of mods that change how the weapon plays. examples: headshots cause a second bullet to chain to nearby enemy killing an enemy with this weapon causes an explosion inflicting status will propel the enemy in air (like bastille) orange crits pull enemies nearby closer to the enemy you shot red crits pull enemies nearby closer to the enemy and remove 10% of defences repeated hits on a single enemy will increase loot drop chances (3% per hit) killing stunned enemies add overshields to your warframe switching to this weapon can pull enemies into spot your aiming 45% chance (the chance can change idk if this would work) killing 5 enemies with this weapon will give a 15%-90% damage buff to nearby allies like imo if we had these kind of choices to make with primaries we could make some really interesting weapons, especially on weapons that have innate effects. another issue is how melee is the main damage thing due to the pure ammount of damage they can build up. so i would add some mods like finishing off a previously melee'd enemy with this weapon will link all damage done to this enemy to nearby enemies meleeing an enemy after shooting them with this weapon will pull in enemies. hitting multiple enemies with a single shot multiplies the damage of the next shot based off the last shot these sort of changes would make primaries very versitile. making it so my soma isnt the same as your soma. thus making build very personal, and while yes this may make primaries stupidly strong with the example ive given, it will give players reasons to use different mods
As 1 of 4 player squad that did a 12 hr cod zombies run I can see the fun of holding out as long as you possibly can and it honestly gets to the point that your gonna mentally break before your Build/Strat does.... So let some of us Dream
I wish I was there in stream to ask this since I don't know if anyone had asked something like this yet: How would forma function in the suggested system? Obviously it would be dumb to remove forma's functionality and have it just apply to frames and companions but I didn't hear any ideas how exactly that would work.
Haven't watched it all yet but so far I agree with everything. There are so many mods I would love to use but can't because if I drop the mandatory stuff, the weapons become useless and deal no damage. Like, I always want to use "Twitch" because switching weapons is annoying and slow for me, but I never get the chance to. Changing the current system would also be amazing for the set mods, allowing them to be used to their full extent. What is the purpose of having "full-set" bonuses if you never/rarely get to use them together? Basically imagine having build diversity lol
"We don't need to just go to the loot cave, and drown in our sorrows on Hydron..." god I wish this system were a thing.
DE watching this video, reading this comment "Okay, so nerf Hydron, got it"
@@Supadrumma441 yeah DElogic
Literally just got done with my now 4 forma Supra Vandal. This would've been a life saver.
Ffff, I laughed so hard at how relatable that is 🤣
And then de is like grind is content we dont want you to finish everything immediately... WF is a weird game, nothing else has this clumsy shitty system of forced grind just to use what we already own but just because we want it doesnt mean theyll want to do it.
This system would also make it more viable for DE to make more fun mods that don't increase your damage and people would then proceed to actually try them out more. I would love this system so much.
Parazon mods kinda already function like how the "class" slots Brozime suggested.
They're minor bonuses cuz they're for the parazon, but they're pretty customizable however you want. I don't see a reason weapons can't be the same way
It just needs one simple change, base damage mods need their own layer of modding and unlock either fully or at 50% at rank 0. We still need to get and rank mods like before.
@@635574 Okay, he's not even talking about the strength of the weapons right now. He's taking about the generic build that goes on every weapon. It's super pointless to have a "modding system" that gets you THE BUILD because then you might as well just make me level the weapon to the equivalent of 5 forma lvl 30 and then take out mods. We just want variety.
@@635574 Also he literally said, still get and level them like before
@@takreviews I was replying because I dont see guns getting the same approach as parazon and I have a different solution to better mod and gun balance: still use mods but rebalance system where a gun would stack both rank and mod bonuses. This would result in less reliance on massive numbers from each damage and mult mod but they still directly increase total damage. It would be effective bandaid on early progression rng, and to reduce it more essential mod rewards could be put on first time completion of certian planet nodes. Im not suggesting we change existing balance but just make it easier to get there, and then any further rebalance will be easier.
@@635574 Or you could fix the core issue whilst simultaneously buffing guns just like brozime said in the video you clicked on to complain
The trick with making a mod system is to either avoid damage entirely with every option or incorporate it into all of them. Warframe's nodding system is basically ruined already, without a total overhaul.
Yea, I would much more prefer it to be, although simple, a side "perk" system that allows us to have 2,3 mods installed. While the main dmg increase would come from directly upgrading the the weapon itself.
I'm in favour the incorporate it into all of them, personally. I think it's more of a matter of the "class 2" & "class 1" mods just aren't balanced to keep up.
Geeeet rid of it. Dump it all in the Atarii ET landfill. Mods as a concept is incompatable with how DE wants weapons to perform. I'd rather weapons have baked-in stats that can be pitched high or low on a scale. Customizable but not "trading cards". The potential to balance weapons appropriately, and efficiently.
There is no change you can make to modding at all that wouldnt birth some kind of always used meta. So long as there is a choice, there is a best choice, and you can't get around it. Even if modding was removed entirely, there would still be a gun meta that maximizes dps. Remove raw dps from modding, and you chose the mods that make the gun the most braindead.
The only problem with modding, is that players are making it too efficient. And they will always tend towards the most efficient.
@@BlueFan99 2-3? The ideas y'all have are terrible
Imagine if modding was actually changed and we have mods like:
- Thermal vision on sniper scopes
- Mark enemy head when aiming
- Nagantaka has reload speed bonus when killing with headshots right? Make a mod out of it.
- Small radial stun when reloading from empty
- Gain a damage bonus when magazine is close to empty (max 15%, weapon must have at least X magazine capacity)
- Shot enemies are marked with dots and can be seen through walls or on mini map
so you're saying remove all the gimmicks from the weapons and make them mods? that makes every weapon the same what's the point of new weapons then?
@@icriinside9305 Nah, unique weapons keep their traits but add more small stuff that's trivial and doesn't directly affect the damage like the ones I listed as mods or something. I've been playing Borderlands lately and I can think of even more stuff.
- On critical headshot: Bullet ricochets to nearest enemy.
- More detailed adjustable scope zoom
- Mod that makes you hit and stun an enemy with your weapon if said weapon doesn't have an alt fire.
Yesterday I was even thinking what if they removed weapon ammo pools and the ones that have a rechargeable mag like the Fulmin or Cycron could have a small damage bonus (sth like 10-20%) that's on a cooldown whenever you empty your mag to compensate. (just a quick theory, might open up a can of worms)
Make projectile based weapons hit scan but deal less damage or consume x2 ammo per shot.
For god's sake allow latron rifles to switch zoom levels like the Veldt already.
Add a mod that while zooming with sniper scopes you get a radar of sort that pulsates every 3-5s revealing enemies on the minimap within X meters or in the direction you are aiming.
@@itszaebin7386 for scope, just let me change its design.... i like my grineer scopes, and hate my seaweed.
if it isnt modding for aesthetics, there will always be a set amount of "required" mods used by people trying to play optimally. You cannot make meaningful change to the modding system and avoid having a most used meta, because if each and every choice isnt exactly identical to the other, there will be a best option. And in order for modding to be a progression system, there has to be worse options.
@@ThreeGoddesses I was thinking of something like the railjack modding we have now. You have one set of modding slots for the stats, another for tactical mods. The mandatory mods are still there but you can have more of a personal touch with different buffs that don't directly impact your weapon's dps.
Watching these vids makes me kinda sad, since it just shows how amazing of a game Warframe could be.
It's a great game
Alternate title: Bearded Man Discusses His 10-Point Plan to Improve Modding Then Turns Into Anime.
Quite accurate
Time stamp for the animu? UwU
@@Megalomaniakaal around 1:37:00
@@1q34w Oh. Oh noes. It-it's spreading...
Bearded? Nah.
Has been one of my largest issues with war frame. The mods are not modular, it’s just a random pain point of grind that does nothing to interest me in trying new builds, cause there’s no reason to try anything new.
Exactly. You know what I do when I build a new gun that I like? I literally mod it the same way as all my other guns.
Like current modding system does nothing for the game;
new players are scarred because they see 50000 mods and dont know what to do
And anyone else ignores it and just use the same 40 actual good mods.
Honestly modding feels like an ikea shelf, you build it the only way you can, and at the end you have the choice to put the shelf down vertically or horizontally, and that's about all the choice you'll get.
That's because people don't know how to think for themselves anymore. All they see is thousands of people telling them "this is what you have to use" and noone saying "just use what you have and do content that is relevant to your level, that is how you get better mods and THAT will let you look through them, see what they can do for you, scrap extras into endo to upgrade the ones you like."
Warframe is actually one of the few games that isn't just a Start game > rush to the end > only do endgame. Warframe is actually amazing in that some of the things you get fairly early are actually still later game viable. Are you taking your mk-1 braton into steel path? I sure hope not, but how many of us still use augur, gladiator, stances, etc that we got in the first couple of weeks of playing? The whole thing with there being such a big pool of mods is that they build up over time. If you get overwhelmed then take some time to sit down and go through them. If you want help then ask, but warframe promotes those two things very well. Asking for help because the community or exploring the mechanics to see what works for you.
@@LucidDreamer0322 My man over here responding to almost 2 year old comments, I dont even play wf anymore but thanks for your thoughts anyways ^^
I know UA-cam might not pay the bills as well as streaming, but this 3 hour video is honestly a succinct 30 min video dragged into 3 hours by the dumbest people in your chat being the loudest people in your chat. That said, I really like your idea. Especially since the primaries and secondaries are in need of a buff. If they add more powerful mods that would either fit in your innate category or C1 category, then we might even hit a better place where the innates chosen wouldn't be automatic, and then the C1 and C2 would also be tough choices. It would even be better for Warframe content creators, because right now, nobody that's not a noob needs to look up mod builds when a new weapon comes out. We just plunk the same mods we always use into the gun and go on our way. If DE made a bunch of good innates to choose from, I'd personally do a lot more research when new weapons come out to see what mod/innate combos seem to work the best.
Coming back to this video after the railjack update hits to say that the UI for this is in the game now with the Plexus. This would be really easy to implement.
Yeah now I think about it , why is damage even a mod and not just weapon level . That is literally mandatory.
Simple if you level weapon without mods and kill whole starchart how will noobs find out their modding sucks? Wait for someone to tell them?
@@635574 still watching the video , I think his idea of innate modding in general is better . Also I don’t really get your point , it’ll just make things for personal liking
@@carletpierre1895 he also wants to keep the mods, which makes them a major part of power progression. The idea of just deleting base and mult was opposed in the past because it was meant as just giving every weapon full damage without mods and that will make the start of the game super easy even before players get and use mods. Im not saying he wants that, just DE heard and abandoned that simple getting rid of 2 slots idea.
@@635574 You weren't listening then, because he said you still gotta aquisiton and level those mods. Some of the basic ones get given to you through tutorials or whatever but you still gotta dump your endo into them, noobs don't have endo. And they still need to know which inates make their gun make biggest boom and which class 1 make their gun make biggest boom. And which class 2s make their gun make cool noise and so the thing it do the way I like it to do. You aren't putting enough credit in the hands of new players sure they inexperienced in the game but they aren't stupid.
@@takreviews i didnt say he was for deleting mod progress, but that DE has not commented on this version of modding idea yet.
also, sounds like an interesting system, but we all know the entire community will just forget everything about the problems with modding as soon as there's a content drop.
Do they? The current modding system is *the* reason why new rewards are either top tier or never used, same for new weapons. It drastically affects the time before such content becomes stale
Personally I never will but I am just on principle an individual want to remove modding all together
@@thanatosdriver1938 That's one of the only interesting things about the game though. I never would have started playing without it. It's a tough spot as modding gets extremely boring once you've been playing for a while, but without it this is a very unoriginal game, most of which is almost a decade old in terms of design, and the lion's share of the newer stuff is just the old modes with lipstick on.
One thing's for sure: WF needs to evolve or it won't survive.
I think you could do this in a way simpler way. Just add an extra row of mods to the current menu and divide mods into damage and utility mods. 6 mod slots are for damage 4 are for utility, you put weapon specific mods in the utility slot to make them more useful and unique.
imagine unmodded guns wernt like flicking toothpicks at an iron wall
Using a weapon without a catalyst is still like flicking toothpicks at an iron wall
Not to mention some guns don’t just need an orokin reactor, that’s mandatory, but also need like 5-6 or even 7 forma to be able to function the way you want it to for the content that you play.
Brozime: You might care about game design a little more than most people
Me, studying game design right now: oh fuck
Weird how dumb and combative the chat was, I mean I can see some issue with what he said but the amount of bad takes the chat had was annoying.
There's a simple way and then there's Brozime's way. This entire system seems pretty good but you're basically just doubling up on mods except one set of mods is for every weapon while there are niche mods for the main weapon.
Most people just wanted Mandatory Mods to be innate or linked to Weapon Lvl. So Damage, Crit, Crit Chance, Status Chance and Multishot are tied to Weapon Rank much like Warframes has Bonuses when Ranking up.
that's any twitch chat for you, there's always 1 or 2 loud guys with bad takes, not a big deal tho, vast majority are usually chill and that's why you don't hear him calling them out
It's just someone that is happy to "get new weapon, go brrrrr" knowing that the standard build works everytime...same people that use a crit build on a Kuva Ogris and then cry it's weak lol
@@Lord_Phoenix95 Then you just flood the table with elemental mods and stuff like Argon Scope, Augur mods, Gladiator mods etc.
You just made new top tier mods by making the current ones intrinsic to the weapon, not fixing the problem and incurring in power creep at the same time.
And whenever the weapon gets forma'd it becomes useless until you level it back up by not using it.
while brozime isnt wrong with the builds being basically the same, that problem doesnt really become a problem until you play the game for as long as brozime has. what he wants for the game sounds super far away since they keep doubling down on railjack which has nothing to do with the main part of the game anyways
"if listening to this discussion is how you're spending your monday night, I've got bad news for ya"
Ah yes, another video to add to my backlog of podcast-like videos.
Edit: finished the video. Now there's one less video in my list.
I know that pain, when I was about to clear out my to watch list, suddenly another 7 hours of content appear.
Play a game or two you haven't gotten around to chewing through and expect to dislike. I went through The Outer Worlds, LoU2, and BioShock 2 off Zero Punctuation compilations.
@@sin21ful I usually listen to long form videos when I'm doing work. Gaming not so much, as can't split my attention when I'm playing games. Warframe is the exception though, as you don't need a brain to play it.
Sometimes I wonder why you don’t work at DE
Because they would never let him.
Because it's DE's vision and their vision is final. DE only hires new people for Art, Sounds and Music.
One thing is thinking up all kinds of ideas and another is what the developers think is good for the game, what the company thinks is good for revenue and what's actually implementable or worth spending over and implementing, anyone can come up with a hundred different ways they think can improve the game for any game
@@Lord_Phoenix95 it’s not about vision, it’s about what brings in more money. You think it’s a coincidence that pretty much every single content drop in years was rushed, grindy and disrespectful to players’ any prior time and resource investments content island designed to milk as many hours and plat in earlier days/weeks, only to be patched to be bearable later on “based on player feedback”, yet same “player feedback” is somehow completely forgotten when a next content island is introduced?
Bunch of good people on a team won’t change things overall. Higher-ups simply won’t let them.
because he actually cares about a good game experience. de would never allow that
Why doesn’t DE hire you to make balancing changes. You got the nail on the head in your vids.
DE makes there game according to there design non of the players business clearly you play it because you like it just let DE make there own damn game plus most of his ideas are dumb in my opinion
Because anything that sounds like a good idea, DE literally does the complete opposite.
God it's so annoying when the people who like sitting in endless missions for 20 hours act entitled and talk like they're the "real pros" just because they can afford to not have a life despite what they're doing being meaningless
they're trying to justify spending 20 hours grinding formas lol
This kind of comments are just the complete lack of understanding. I for example don't go on long missions(only 1 or 2 times to prove to some schmuck that my modding is good), but I modded my gear to be able to do it always if needed/wanted. And to give an exaple of needed/wanted - when ss ground was on and I did only random teams most of them died or couldn't defend or could not do damage, and that was ONLY lv140-180 enemies at the end.When I modded for harder content I felt confident and carried most of the squads there and I wasn't annoyed that they didn't do enough.And it was "needed" because most people didn't have the arcanes and wanted them.
So no, you DON'T HAVE TO do 8+ hour missions to be good at modding but you have to strive to mod that way so anytime there is even a slight need for that you will be ready.
And even if you are talking about lower levels or "normal" missions there is nothing that will make the game not work correctly if you mod for harder content.
I don't get this anti-crowd that just bashes on people who tried to make their mods/gear or setups perform at it's maximum, isn't this the point of the power leveling in every game?
FYI it takes only 2 hours to reach level cap.. this dude Brozime is out of touch and whatever he says only proves that. Nobody with a good understanding of the game even respect him anymore.
@@vrontheweb3749 oh shit look out this dude is gonna show us how big his e-peen is take cover everyone
@@YoopsYoops Do you not know a game mode called Disruption exists with faster enemy scaling?
So like I said, 2 hours of disruption can take you to level-cap and 2 hours is like half of the time I spend playing video games in a day. If that's a lot of time, you can always extract earlier if it makes you confident with your builds.
7 hours in a single mission is laughable.
Shit like this is why Brozime if my favorite warframe creator. His passion for the game is obvious because you wouldn't spend this much time trying to improve the game if you didn't care. I'm similar in that I have about 4 pages of typed-up notes currently of my ideas to improve Elite: Dangerous...
sometimes i do a 1hr survival with a wisp and unmodded weapons just to feel something
I like this idea. I've been of the opinion that Warframe could use a little more inspiration behind modding in most cases.
Exactly, the only modding variety we got are "the build" and maybe a meme build like highest fire rate. Going with the proposed system you could still make the meme build full of the innate fire rate mods stacked up.
Split the modding into three categories: Barrel, handle, receiver. Each can be modded separately, and only certain mods go on each. Add new mods too, because the current pool is pretty lackluster. Remove the on kill ones imo, and multishot doesn't really work thematically. Can't touch multishot though or people would riot.
If you want something more balanced might just 2x damage and multishot just divides it into more fragments for that crit and status chance multiplication.
@@635574 good idea. Always had an issue with a lato shooting 4 bullets at a time.
I’m just imagining how I could finally run primed chamber and depleted reload without needing a groll for eidolon . Oh the dream
Chat for an hour: “Man, are you gonna edit this and put this up on UA-cam?” “Maybe.” “You should upload this to UA-cam.” “Yeah, I probably will.” “Aw man, this needs to be on UA-cam.” “F- it, I’ll upload the stream” Me Liking this and unliking it just so I can Like it all over again
3 hours of brozime being brain? hell yeah, time to vibe out and agree to most of what he says.
Indeed it is
Only most? I cant believe you would have opinions of your own XP
I like the idea, the problem is this would require intense community feedback and given past experiences DE isnt to keen on that. It would be very interesting to see what people come up with this system instead of the "Numbers go up" =good we have
Real big brain thought.
Put ammo, augment and reload mods into the Exilus.
With the release of the Plexilus, which has different modding category screens (some of which take no drain), this seems quite a bit more doable. Nothing would necessarily even need to change visually, besides the tabs for each class of mod. Otherwise it's just tweaks to drop locations for innate mods (for whichever ones aren't just given by default) and picking what goes where.
I wish there was more discussion around this today
This is what I've been saying for so long except you thought it out more and what the repercussions of making damage and multishot innate
Any game with numbers will have best in slot items. That's how math works. Limiting slots to certain mods only increases the restrictions placed on players. Mid-clip reloads make reload speed objectively better than equal magazine capacity. 500.1% damage will always be superior to 500% damage, no matter how small of a difference it is. And people are going to be particular about it. UA-camrs are going to be particular about it.
The only way to make a good mod system is to make everything fit its own particular niche like they try with the Warframes. As it is now, who will ever need more than three secondary weapons: one set of knives for stealth, one rapid fire gun for priming, and the grimoire for caster frames?
Let me make a couple examples of potentially good unique weapons.
A secondary knife that gets lodged in the enemy on alt fire, dealing damage if you then proc impact status. Suddenly impact has a use.
Weapon that deals extra damage if you don't crit. Suddenly you don't want crit chance mods.
A set of claws that increases the crit level by one for each status they would inflict. Very chaotic weapon with a unique modding experience.
A gunblade that shoots lightning pods with alt fire, turning elemental status effects into their alchemy duplicates. New modding potential!
A sword that guarantees extra drops if you kill an enemy with no status effects. Nice solo farm, and it doesn't want you to build status at all!
Boom, two minutes and I came up with five weapons with unique interactions with the game systems, and want you to mod and play in a way that's quite different from 'the' build.
Don't make modding more contrived, make weapons more interesting.
DE just needs to hire this man already
Seriously though
We stan DE_Brozime
Only somewhat more likely than them hiring Rahetalius at this point.
Word
@@Uhg56 I wouldn't hire rathelius
I remember when the Soma Prime dropped and the META at the time was either Soma or Boltor. You had a super nice crit weapon vs a meat grinder that could use status. It was a choice with consequences unlike some later weapons.
Ok Boomer
Idk i only noticed it was meh when I came. Noobs who think all crits is better than actual dps or if they just farmed low levels, maybe it was meta to them.
Great suggestions, doubt something good like this would actually become a reality though.
The main issue with it is that he isn’t really thinking of how this would effect NEW players.
Having inate extra damage would absolutely fuck over the early game scaling. It would be piss easy for a new player.
But its not like that, you need to get and rank the mods first new players still do the same things its just we skip the level process to slot damage mods, the other mpd slots woul need to unlock with levels now.
@@penisboss5976 not if they hard lock the inates it behind quests/map unlocks.
If you had an illustration to go with your points I think I would have understood better, but just listening to your ideas and trying to read the run down as you showed it was hard for me to imagine how it would work.
I feel like a way of making use of some of the "increase damage in this category by x% would be to make them conversion mods instead. So you go from +120% Slash Dmg. to Convert 50% of Dmg. to Slash. Same with all the general IPS mods and Stastus+Ele Dmg. mods.
This lets you make a baseline for your damage in your intrinsics, then focus the damage in your general mods.
the quote "neuron activate, throw glaive prime, number good" is ingrained into my brain currently
overall a very intriguing discussion i wouldn't be opposed to the mechanics of at all, & think it'd be a lot healthier than the current system
Am 2 hours into the video and am loving what your talking about. As a MR30 this would be a welcome change and give a reason to use the all them mods that we don't use. Right now everyone build is the same and there's ntn different about it.
Just move the current mod screen to innates and keep the capacity there, but capacity just starts at 30 (60 if you potato). There you go, forma & catalysts stay relevant so DE doesn't lose money but we still get our better system.
Or make the same change like standing cap, level 0 is 1/2 the total and potato just starts at 30 and gives 60 cap. Would make MR15 more relevant for unpotatoed fodder weapons too.
@@635574 that'd cost de some amount of money. Never gonna happen.
@@AziSlays or if they want to sell more potatos lock it behind potato so its at 30/60.
I agree that mandatory mods shouldn't be part of the mod system, but I don't think the innates should be per weapon - the very fact that you would change them on a weapon-by-weapon basis indicates they are not mandatory and are choices. The part of the orbiter for innates should be a universal weapon damage upgrade section.
Really like the idea of Class 1 and Class 2 mods, any modding rework would need to have a way to "force" you to use QoL mods, otherwise they won't be used at all and the fun they bring goes away.
Making status and crit innate because you always choose crit isn't addressing the core of the issue; status needs to be buffed. If status and crit were balanced, then it would be a choice per weapon whether you go crit, status, or hybrid, and that's what the system needs imo.
I think after DE addresses the melee vs primary balance issues (hopefully in a good way), this needs to be the next big conversation for the community. I like your solution, but I think it adds a lot of complexity to a system that's already hard for new players. If innates were global buffs per account, that would streamline the whole thing and make it easier to understand.
I took it as the extra dmg was an ENTIRE weapon class upgrade in the inates section. So serration would just increase the dmg of rifles "inately" or intrinsically (imo would be better if he called it intrinsics lol).
i havent seen the whole vid yet but i totally tooootally agree with this. ive always found it so weird that mods like spring loaded chamber, agile aim, tactical reload and twitch exist when _every single slot_ of your weapon is either taken up by a pure damage mod, or its useless. a system at least similar to this would be absolutely phenomenal and would genuinely make modding more fun. could also give them some opportunities to add even more gimmicky fun mods too, like weapons have x life steal, aim to see enemies through walls, shoot allies to heal them, gain small amounts of fire rate per kill, or even more of those joke types that spawn flowers on impact, like for example enemies exploding in (purely visual) confetti on death, almost making ephemera esque mods for weapons. that would now genuinely become useable
id like the same for warframes too tbh. straight up power/ability customisation mods, then a fun category for stuff like ice spring, motus signal, natural talent, streamlined form, synth reflex and undying will, and make even more fun mods like abilities inflicting vfx, a triple jump, etc
unrelated but i also really hate how elements work in this game and wish it was streamlined so that impact, puncture and slash were the 3 elements all enemy resistances were based around (think borderlands with just health, just shields, just armour. no weird confusing unnecessary variants) and actual elements were more for fun. youd use radiation to confuse enemies, electricity to stun, gas to cause clouds etc but not to directly do damage
We all know that rivens are a big part of warframe and especially a big part of warframes economy. That was a decision DE made when they introduced them and now they can only really make smaller changes to the modding system within the limitations of the already existing system to not completely fuck over peoples investment of tons of time and also real money
I feel like if you spent the time to go get some schooling or courses under your belt you could legitimately get a job in game development to work on game balance. You have the dedication and vision to see all this stuff at such an advanced level and the ability to communicate it to people super well. Just a thought honestly.
Dude seriously got talent for this stuff.
De doesnt have a balance department and its obvious for the whole game. Normal online games at least have someone or a whole team
That was his plan before UA-cam and Twitch
@@635574 Nobody even said that DE had one
well he has 10k hours logged on this game, so it'd be weird if he didnt understand the game enough to give valid feedback
"if this is what you choose to do with your Monday night, you may care more about game design than most people" XD had me weak
I dig this idea a lot. I wouldn't mind if they even took half of the ideas here, like... maybe we still have to level stuff up and it's useless. But open up modding so that it's actually about personalization *and* optimization? That'd be so rad
So Innates are basically...
8 new slots with no cost limits or MR gating
slots are dedicated to mods that are purely beneficial to DPS
and then you get 4 conditional DPS increase mods, and 4 whatever else mods? (modified by weapon level/viability?)
Yeah, I'm ok with that system. They could add new whacky dumb mods that I'd swap out my whatever slots for just to fuck around. In this current system I can't afford to put in 1 utility mod for primaries and expect it to do anything useful. It's also hands down the most Forma hungry category, with very little reward for dumping them.
This bugged me for a long time, ignore the hecklers in chat
With serration/multishot for example being in the game, you basically have 6 empty slots you can mod, it's all an illusion except very few weapons that don't benefit from multishot like afentis and javlok. an easy way to fix this would be to compromise for the 2 intrinsics and 6 slots but give us way more variation to those
critical mods already have the critical delay, would be nice to see more nightmare/amalgam alternatives
inst of +120% multishot you get +180% multishot -50% reload speed / +100% multishot +30% projectile speed and so on
inst of serration/amalgam serration, you get +155% damage +40% reserve ammo / +145% +20% clip size and so on, so easy from the attributes we already have but rarely use because opportunity cost not necessarily because they are useless
incarnon weapons are the closest thing to what you're recommending on the other hand. per-weapon-basis and you can choose between 15 most basic upgrades (damage/firerate/reload - penetration/clip size/crit damage - multishot/status/fire rate - and so on). this limits a bit how you can combine them tho, say i want to build for both crit and multishot like now, what if they are on the same branch?
I'm like 15min in and I couldn't agree more. I think this would be a fantastic improvement
These videos are what I am here for I love this stuff the discussions I wish you had a podcast like this maybe monthly ahh that's the dream just brozime talking about whatever he is passionate about that month
This seems like a system I’d want to test on new player impressions. Compare this to how off putting this kind of system is vs just increasing mod slots and capacity(which would essentially solve the problem in a similar way).
As a long term player I don’t mind learning a new system and transitioning, but all too often I hear newer and tentative players being offput by the apparent complexity of the game. Maybe having mods chunked together and tiered would make it look simpler, maybe it looks more complicated. I imagine that the free mod space from the current system gives inexperienced players paralysis of choice
He should make a visuak guide, its not very clear at first. But basically new players would first see the base mods and once they learn thosr the next layers become relevant, perhaps hide those sections in UI until mr2 or 3.
This seems like a pretty similar idea to what the Plexus ended up being, where the innates would be similar to the "integrated" mods, and then your type-1's and 2's would be similar to the battle mods on the plexus, except with 8 more slots instead of 3, and some of them are type-1 only
it would be a great idea for universal primary rework
Yeah but we cant get that without a nerf to something else
Bruh we just need to make the damage and mult scaling not take mod slot
@@635574 i feel like that would do less than you think
@@635574 Making them scale doesn't solve the core issue, bruh. It makes the build still be the same on every weapon, when I forma the gun its still trash unless I'm Mr 30, when I get a new gun I already know what the end game build is gonna look like so whats the point in even having builds if they're all the same
I was farming railjack while i had this video on the background. When i alt tabbed to do something else i had to do a double take because i was NOT prepared to see Brozime as an anime character.
watching this a year after the original discussion, I still think this system needs to be implemented. Galvanized mods are just class 1 mods that are better than the previous ones, similar to the prime vs normal mods. Primary and secondary arcanes do add SOME diversity to building guns, because you can drop serration, but that's pretty much it.
Ive been craving this conversation especially after getting into destiny 2,
But i havent found anybody who is interested, so i find myself back here.
Gamer
I love these discussion videos, hope Broz brings these back in the future
So to summarize take all the mods we always use (serration, split chamber, point strike) make them inherently equipible on all weapons regardless of level. Then take all of the other mods that get rarely used and make them equipible i a separate mod section on the weapons that is based on levels.
Reasoning being that this would allow all weapons to be usable from the start rather than going to grind on one mission node just to make your weapon useful, but also not negating the need/desire to level them up by still using the old system for the other mods.
I like this a lot. It increases customization and rewards players for the work they put in early on and cuts down on the often boring and monotonous mid game grind. It would allow players to focus more on the whole game rather than constantly focusing on one node because their weapons aren’t leveled.
Even a bit over a year later we having similar conversations about modding and the toxic dismissal of other player concerns is still the same. I guess we should just accept what the game gives us if we don't like don't log in don't play
Unfortunately that's true and it's really depressing to see just how many Jack wagon's are in the boat of "none of this matters, you're over complicating it" when the ideas are already laid out in the most convenient way possible for them to just implement it in someway.
Ok so I'd divide the "inates" in half
"Raws" (4 slots) = Serration, Multishot, Heavy Cal, and the Crit mods
"Elementals" (4 slots) = you know what they are
The reason I'd divide it is because old no crit weapons can compete slightly better since crit guns don't get to have 3 elementals and heavy cal for more dmg now both weapons are forced to have 4 elementals and 4 raw dmg mods
And also it hurts way more to get a Riven for meta guns as it would be in the Raws category so once again you have to sacrifice one of the crit mods
The implementation of rivens equates to D.E. stopping warframe from bleeding to death by cramming dried shit in the wound and saying..." Your welcome".
when is the Brozime cut for warframe coming out I want in that Alpha test
A lot of weapons I just never used because I didnt want to level them multiple times just for me to see what the weapon can do. There are probably lots of cool weapons that just dont get any use because they get ignored by players since they dont wanna invest forma
I feel like the most likely way this would be implemented is to have an exilus mod page where they could do the class 1 and 2 type exilus mods, but they would still lock the QOL stuff behind the adapter. DE makes way too much money from people buying forma and exilus adapters for plat to remove that revenue stream.
They might have the exilus page have its own capacity tho, but they will still probably make you forma that weapon 6 times if you wanna fit all them damage mods on.
I also like this and is rhe least work, just split it into 2 types of exilus and maybe some dual type mods and lock some slots with dispo and a consumable as well.
What they could do is add a new tab to the operator called "Weapon Expertise" that has you level up nodes like primary dmg/cc/sc, secondary dmg/cc/sc, melee dmg/cc/sc, then change the element mods to do something like change 100% of impact/puncture/slash damage to cold/heat/tox/electric
I keep thinking that our operator should have a 'Core Four' mods, where I can always have 4 mods that I'm never going to want to remove, such as Vitality Rage Flow and something like either Adaptation or Equilibrium, leaving me able to have health, energy, and energy economy on any frame I use, then each frames 8 mod slots, 1 exilus and an aura are actually for the frame to shine.
I also have a huge rework idea for focus that basically gives new passives to allow you to negate the need for un-Primed mods in your builds, again allowing you to actually mod a Warframe to be unique instead of just 'Cookie cutter build A or B'.
I really love this idea, but I think there shouldn't be a mod menu for the 8 innate mods for each weapon, I think that'd be too strong, but I think there should be 1 singular 10 slot universal weapon mod menu which contains all of the class 1 weapon mods including what weapon they're particular to. So, you can max out your melee and leave your guns useless, you can max out your primary but leave your other weapons useless, you can max out your secondary but leave your other weapons useless, or you can find a balance between your weapons depending on what you need most. Leave the Status Chance status mods in the individual weapon mod menus, but move the pure status mods into the universal weapon mod menu.
Great video. Excellent perspective and actual legitimate solutions. Glad that you haven't changed. Thanks for uploading this to youtube. I would love more longform content like this.
For all of the dnd fans out there, modding kinda reminds me of the issues that the warlock has where you usually just go for all the eb invocations and have room for a couple of fun ones.
I feel like EB should be a class feature with its own invocation track separate from other invocations.
Despite the fact that melee modding for the most part is just using blood rush condition overload i still find it more enjoyable and varied to mod melees than primaries
That's crazy, I have that build exact build on my Primary.
Dude no way, me too!
I think the reason mods work for things like warframes and railjack is because for those, the different abilities mean the builds are so varied, you barely ever have two frames with exactly the same build, but the problem with weapons is weapons are basically unusable without certain boosts and any differences are usually negligable anyway because they all do the same thing (throw bullet, make damage). In slight contradiction, the railjack is usually really samey, but you only have one anyway, so it doesn't matter
basically this system maintains the "I've earned my build, now I can use it on every weapon" feeling the game has now, makes it EASIER to use because it's not locked behind levelling the weapon, but still lets you further customize the weapon to how you want it to be. Every weapon has its own strengths that can be built toward separate from the "meta build" you farmed out over the months
You can accomplish the same effect by increasing the mod slots from 8 to 16 and mod capacity from 60 to 120 and you class the mods the way you said. Thus you don't need a new system and at the begining you start with more base mod capacity like how they increased the daily standing limit. It's not the best way to do it but it might me simpler to do it with decent amount of upsides.
8 minutes so far and I buy the idea.
As I understand:
Innate - 8 direct universal damage mods - dmg, multi, crits, elements (fire rate?) as a separate modding tab.
Class 1 - up to 4 conditional/indirect dps mods - faction, reload, aoe, weapon special, punch through, fire rate, etc
And class 2 - up to 5 exilus mods, right?
This is the closest to understanding what he said I read here so far. Idk where he said 5 exilus but sure i like that more than 4 of each.
I'd make serration innate and then rework/buff status effects other than viral, heat, and slash, such that its worthwhile to use them. Also, I'd buff the corpus and infested- right now we only build to beat the grineer, because they're the only faction that doesn't get trappled.
I think the thing people don't realize, is the "+X% damage on Y weapon type" mods have a very special place in warframe's progression, other mods have gained its property as well which is a problem, but what these straight up damage mods do is act as your personal "Damage go up" stat as a player, except it eats up a customization slot.
A new player gets their early power gains by buffing up their pure damage mods. The next boost they start getting come from the multishot mods, then come elementals and crit. Then they get their next set of boosts by getting things like their satus+elementals, their primed mods, their nightmare mods that are worth using, their "combo scaling" mods for melee, their cursed mods from Deimos Orokin Derelict Vaults, then finally we start moving into their weirder augments.
The same thing exists on warframes BTW, in the form of your basic "+X% to Y power stat" mods as well as the health, armour, and shield mods.
The issue currently is the foundational mods don't get phased out for something else in a circumstantial way, because the numbers are too big. I'd give up 10% of my net base damage if it could also give me an decrease to recoil on some weapons, or 10% less net base damage for faster fire reload. The only place this trade off exists is for elementals, do you go with a 90% or a 60% with 60% more status? Well at least you _used_ to ask that, now you just say "What combo gets me a primed elemental mod with two 60/60s that leads to viral+heat for this weapon class?"
I mostly just want build veriety and every type of weapon being worth using some way or one other. So having inaits so it not such a pain to level stuff and to possibly give more options to build your mod setup is definately the right direction. Though having an inbuilt combo counter similar to that of snipers but, for hits or kills would also, be great. Each weapon having a combo counter alone that decreases in damage as you let the counter decay would mean you would not necessarily need a combo duration mod either. Combined with traits were required mods can be used with other situational mods is just a good idea.
Also for people to better understand, what brozime is essentially advocating for here is weight classes for mods. In boxing featherweights don't fight heavyweights for a reason, it's because one will definitely win 99 percent of the time and it's not the featherweight. You cant expect ammo drum to compete with serration for the same slot, they're not even close to the same value. That's the problem he's trying to solve.
Consider this for melee, too: you make things like Collision Force do a guaranteed status proc of its type on heavy attack. That way you can have a mace them sends enemy corpses flying on heavy attacks.
As a new player I always thought rivens were really cool because it was a way to make certain weapon builds more unique or at the very least make you feel like a king having one on you’re weapon. It’s a level of customization that isn’t necessary but makes you feel closer to the weapons you love. And it makes crappy weapons viable.
The thing you're noticing is that mods need to be difficult to mathematically optimize to make for meaningful choice.
If balanced well, you don't need to segregate these mods from power either. Right now it's just not balanced well.
Which is better - more damage or more AoE? It's an extremely difficult optimization problem, and it varies in different content. It depends on enemy density, enemy priority, damage breakpoints, etc.
And this also extends to effects that don't "increase damage". Often they actually do increase damage! The point of stabilizing the grakatas is usually that you're increasing your damage by actually putting more bullets where you want to. Or if you can already control your spray, maybe you want it because it reduces the effort that takes. But either way you're still optimizing it! It's not this wishy-washy "preference" thing. There's a reason why you have the preference: it's that you're trying to optimize something. And the reason people have different preferences is either because it is difficult to determine the correct answer or because people have different abilities - some players might find it easier to control the spray of a gun.
If balanced even a little bit well, mod segregation is not nearly as important. The problem is that the balance of the mods in Warframe is terrible. Serration is so powerful that virtually no mod with a less straightforward optimization calculation can compete. But it's easy to imagine balance where that doesn't happen. Imagine it was, say, a 25% damage increase, and you were looking at that versus accuracy on the grakata. Which is better? Well, if accuracy gets you more than 25% more of the bullets into the enemies, it's better. And that depends on enemy density, enemy priority, breakpoints, personal aiming ability, how valuable range is to you, etc.
The balance is just very bad. The numbers are outrageously huge, and it gets even worse because there are so many of them that are not just straightforward damage increases, they're damage increases that combine exponentially.
I agree in principle, but as unlikely as it is that DE would implement something akin to the system featured in this video, what you’re proposing is even less likely. The stratification of mods is really just a (semi-) pragmatic shortcut to at least a semblance of parity (within each strata, rather than across the board, as would be ideal).
@@balewaif Segmentation can absolutely help. I'm definitely not saying that it's a bad idea to segment them. But it's crucial to understand what the actual problem is and what you need to actually do to achieve diversity of outcomes. This problem frequently gets framed in really distorted ways, like preference vs. optimization, damage vs. utility, etc., and it leads to ineffective solutions, like segmentations that don't actually resolve the problem.
Imagine you have a simple situation: there are only two mod slots, and everyone is taking the same two damage mods. Separating it into a damage and a utility slot doesn't itself resolve the situation - if you just do that naively, you usually just end up with everyone taking the same damage mod and the same "utility" mod. You haven't actually gotten at the root problem - although that's not to say that you haven't put yourself in a position where you would be better equipped to deal with the root problem once you DID understand what it was.
Although it's not actually true that segmenting the mods allows you to focus on balance within each segment. That's only true if the benefits of the mods ACROSS the segments, the contribution each mod makes to optimizing whatever a person's cost function is, combine purely linearly. And that is basically never going to be true. Segmenting them can definitely be a useful strategy, but you still end up needing to do significant work balancing across the segments, not just within them.
Yes i know theres basically no mod balancing, corrupted gun mods have always been trash not worth slotting, you think its easy to balance but DE's problem is they've been sailing witout a compass for years. I dont think change in balance is halpening unless they gey a balance person actually making some changes.
I believe that argon scope etc. should work on the next shot (or maybe 3 on assault rifles) so that consistancy would be rewarded, not just "lucky" headshots. Also the corrupted mods should be more of a thing, like +300%crit -90% fire rate.
The one thing I will say about companion modding: As it stands now, Sentinels/MOAs have a major modding advantage in that their damage and their utility are split across two different mod screens, with a total of 19 slots for mods. Pets are much weaker, being limited to only 10 slots for both utility and damage. The solution? Give pets an 'exalted' melee that gives 8 slots to mod their melee attacks, and move all of their attack-altering mods to that system. Special attacks, like kavats' armor stripping attack, would still be part of the pet modding, not their melee, but Bite/Maul, the pet elementals, the mod that increases how many targets a kavat strikes, etc. would all move to the new 'melee' mod screen. That way they can actually have a build, instead of two builds crammed into 10 slots.
I completely agree, I think implementation and balancing of this concept would greatly increase the enjoyability and customization of the game.
Modding can be summed up in 2 concepts: diminishing returns and opportunity cost. The rationale behind all builds is the same. You try to get a bump for as many of the different damage multipliers as you can. Even if you take away base-damage, crit chance, crit damage, and multishot mods, you just shift towards the same kind of mod combination.
The only alternative I see to make modding into something different is to make mods into side-grades like what we have with Conclave.
I realise this was a long time ago but am just finding it now, I love Brozime's idea
Please keep allowing these to come to UA-cam. I love these videos!
They could always just add way more exilus slots and make way more mods into exilus mods.
You'd have to give each weapon more mod capacity but that's not necessarily a bad thing
I would only keep mods that change the weapon behavior, but with heavy tradeoff in order to be reasonably sure that the damage doesn't change too much. By that I mean if you are a very accurate shooter you would want a more powerful weapon but with lower fire rate in order to take advantage of your play style, but if you are not as good you would prefer higher fire rate and lower damage to have more shots actually reach your target. In this case, having mods that have stats like +damage/-firerate and -damage/+firerate done in a way that preserve total damage would be optimal so that every player would have weapons that feel good to use for their individual playstyle. All other mods should be put in other limited slots or be innate, otherwise you will still end up with a more conditional and annoying optimal setup.
I'm gonna be honest was listening to this like it was a podcast and when looked down for the first time in like 2 hours I saw brozime as an anime character and was like "I have no idea what happened but I'm here for it"
If it was me, how I would do it:
Innate Nodes: Each weapon has nodes with ranks, like a mod, for certain stats. Let's say five ranks each for Damage, CC, CD, Multishot, Firerate, Status, and the innate damage types of the weapon (Slash, impact, Heat etc.) Increasing the rank increases that stat by a percentage. You have a certain amount of nodes you can have on at a time. The amount of ranks you can have active at a time is tied to weapon lvl and default mod cap, so as your MR increases you have access to closer to the max amount of ranks/nodes without having to rank up the weapon.
Now the only things mods will do is change the behavior of the weapon. Mods like Brozime's Class 1 that give conditional stat buffs are still mods, but Point Strike, Serration, etc, do not exist. Elemental Mods ADD nodes/ranks of that element, but you have the same amount of nodes available so you have to sacrifice putting them somewhere else, it's not free. There are additional NEW mods that give additional affects, such as changing the gun to Full Auto or burst or semi auto, adding aoe splash damage on hits, other versions of Hunter Munitions (chance to proc heat/toxic/radiation etc on crit or hit), aoe status proc on reload.
Rivens also add extra nodes for the stats they effect (extra damage, critical node, etc.) or remove nodes for negatives.
I know this video is old but basically just built an Intrinsics type system that affects all weapons we own. That sounds incredible. Then we can spend our time trying to customize by preference rather than necessity.
EDIT: The Twin Vipers Wraith is the perfect example of why this is a good idea. The damage output of the weapons CAN be usable. Despite that, the weapons are so painful to use it's not worth it over any other option. They have too little total ammo, magazin is too small, too inaccurate, too much recoil. If you tell me I have 5 slots to solve those issues AND still get my damage mods? All of a sudden that becomes a potential option over competitors like the Akstilleto or Aksomati or whatever.
i like the idea of innates but seperating mods into classes will probably give us another meta like this one where a build is very limited in what you use.
what i would do is have innates then have the current moding system seperate but then add a BUNCH of mods that change how the weapon plays.
examples:
headshots cause a second bullet to chain to nearby enemy
killing an enemy with this weapon causes an explosion
inflicting status will propel the enemy in air (like bastille)
orange crits pull enemies nearby closer to the enemy you shot
red crits pull enemies nearby closer to the enemy and remove 10% of defences
repeated hits on a single enemy will increase loot drop chances (3% per hit)
killing stunned enemies add overshields to your warframe
switching to this weapon can pull enemies into spot your aiming 45% chance (the chance can change idk if this would work)
killing 5 enemies with this weapon will give a 15%-90% damage buff to nearby allies
like imo if we had these kind of choices to make with primaries we could make some really interesting weapons, especially on weapons that have innate effects.
another issue is how melee is the main damage thing due to the pure ammount of damage they can build up.
so i would add some mods like
finishing off a previously melee'd enemy with this weapon will link all damage done to this enemy to nearby enemies
meleeing an enemy after shooting them with this weapon will pull in enemies.
hitting multiple enemies with a single shot multiplies the damage of the next shot based off the last shot
these sort of changes would make primaries very versitile. making it so my soma isnt the same as your soma. thus making build very personal, and while yes this may make primaries stupidly strong with the example ive given, it will give players reasons to use different mods
As 1 of 4 player squad that did a 12 hr cod zombies run
I can see the fun of holding out as long as you possibly can and it honestly gets to the point that your gonna mentally break before your Build/Strat does....
So let some of us Dream
So, when is the petition that millions of us sign for this?
I wish I was there in stream to ask this since I don't know if anyone had asked something like this yet: How would forma function in the suggested system? Obviously it would be dumb to remove forma's functionality and have it just apply to frames and companions but I didn't hear any ideas how exactly that would work.
He said it would probably stay the same and apply to having space for all the Class 1&2 mods you want to have on the weapon.
Haven't watched it all yet but so far I agree with everything. There are so many mods I would love to use but can't because if I drop the mandatory stuff, the weapons become useless and deal no damage. Like, I always want to use "Twitch" because switching weapons is annoying and slow for me, but I never get the chance to.
Changing the current system would also be amazing for the set mods, allowing them to be used to their full extent. What is the purpose of having "full-set" bonuses if you never/rarely get to use them together?
Basically imagine having build diversity lol