That would explain why they brought back wheel guns too. If a Python sells for a couple grand these days, they could sell new ones for a good bit as new manufacture.
It'd be nice if Colt would just put guns into production that people actually want.. And at good prices. No one will be lining up in mass for a $2,500 rifle, that can be built for around $1,200 or less using surplus or new parts. The fact they killed their revolver line, and haven't introduced any new semi-auto pistols designs in decades is troubling..
Indeed a limited production run even at a higher price will not help their financial woes. This price would make sense if they had two variants: 1) A1 Standard, an affordable retro A1 with some short cuts to keep the costs down. Retailing for about $1500 2) A1 Collectors premium, highly accurate replica with no expense spared limited No run. retailing for about $2500 Restoring the revolver line would be a good start then as other US manfacturers have done sign an agreement to re-brand and produce a European (or other) Polymer frame 9mm semi auto.
*shot show booth displaying an item which is impractical, useless, poorly thought out or ridiculously overpriced sees Ian and Carl walking towards their booth - - Employees start hyperventilating and panic ensues
This is necro as hell but yeah they would have. Their machines would need significant retooling to make the old pattern. For a limited production gun like this it makes sense it’s gonna be expensive since all the machines involved will have periods of significant downtime as they are retooled. Since they’re only making a few it’s gonna be expensive
or 3 m1 garands.....2 with new wood, barrel, finish, ETC 1 shitty rack grade m1 (like my own)....which is probably worn right the fuck out....but, that kinda makes it cool to
Or about three M16A1-style rifles using NoDak Spud and surplus parts. Retro ARs are honestly far superior in handling, shootability, and terminal effectiveness (20" vs 16" barrels) to the tacticrap, but $2500 is far and away too much.
Big time! The Colt rep did not like the price question at all. The rep acted and looked like he knows the real reason, but if he tells the truth he would be fired. So, he gave the scripted line of BS the management told him to say instead.
With all possible respect to the poor spokesmen who is just doing the best he can but the idea that it required a lot of 'retooling' and that justifies the price but that statement pegged the BS meter.
maybe they need "retooling" for the integred carry handle since they probably do only flat upper now,tools for the markings (but that's not expensive nor hard to make),tools for the 3-pong flash-hider and for the handguard. but apart from that what have change between the m16A1 and modern AR-15? (i love the facial expression of Karl when the Colt Rep. talk, he's like : WTF MAN?) sad to see colt trying to limit itself into collectors market
Scott Watrous its made by US Ordnance, colt just sells it... just like the M1903 pistol at @ $1499 that had to be completely reverse engineered by US Ordnance because the drawings are gone
Appreciate the hard-hitting honesty from you two where so many channels are willing to whitewash their coverage. That said, Colt deserves all the financial hardship that comes to it when it makes exclusivity decisions like these. Also kinda laughed when the booth rep had absolutely no explanation for the mixture of rifle features, like Colt never expected anyone to ask those kinds of questions at all.
Thank you for going out there and holding the manufacturers' feet to the fire. All the other UA-camrs seem to go out and kiss a bunch of ass... You were able to get some good information without being rude. You could tell the Colt rep was uncomfortable with your questions, which is good. Well done, fellas.
I went to Army Basic Training in Fort Dix, New Jersey in 1976 and was issued a Colt M16a1. We were told by the Drill Sgt that if you break it the cost to the Government would be $200 at that time. Of course, back then $200 was a lot of money. Not to mention that the M16 was full-auto capable, and man that can shoot. We were allowed to fire them at full auto for training purposes.
When you see the full fence lower receiver of the M16A1 you are depicting the rifle around 1967/1968 and that should have a birdcage flash suppressor. The partial fence lower receiver would be depicting an XM16E1, and that rifle would have a 3 prong flash suppressor. I am glad that Colt is doing now what they should have done 50 years ago and giving us a roll marked M16A1 semi auto copy, and I understand about the retooling bit, but Troy has an excellent copy for half the price.
I enjoy the inrange shot show coverage better than most channels. It nice to see a host actually challenge the company reps on their products instead of the standard "this is so great buy all products"
Trained with M16A1s with 3 prong at Ft. Ord 1968. In country Viet Nam 173rd. Airborne early 1969 all of our M16A1s had birdcage. We received some XM177s mid year 1969. Plenty of LSA but cleaning kits were scarce. 20 round magazines only which we loaded with 18. No failures or stoppages.
+nahh nah I remember Colt's die-hard fanboys were complaining about the price of FN's Military Collector AR15s, and saying that "Only Colt's guns are 100% mil-spec" while regurgitating misinformation about the TDP, I bet they will eat this up though, and they will justify it by again regurgitating more misinformation about the TDP.
+Conrad Clark That FN's AR15s are required to have dimensional discrepancies throughout its design to avoid infringing on Colt's IP. Anyone who knows even a sliver of information about IP law would know that is a completely absurd statement.
Colt is the Ambercrombie and Finch of the gun industry. "We don't want everyone to own a Colt, just the wealthy. We don't make guns, we make status symbols."
God damn, you guys are perfect at this type of thing. You know your stuff but at the same time dig for information and call things out. I hope we keep getting these shotshow videos for a bit longer.
as allways ian a brilliant video i love how you go in debth not just listen to a salesman but your own research brings a real unbiased view, great video mate keep them up
I have to agree with you guys 100%. I love that Colt is putting these out but why so limited? I would buy all the models they offer at $1200-1500 a pop, but at $2500 I'm much better off finding a clean SP1 for less.
I love these videos because you are asking real questions like real people, instead of just pandering to all the manufactures like all the other Shot Show reports. In just about every other coverage I'm going, "why didn't you ask them this ........ ?!". Not with you guys. Thank you so much.
I got a full kit, minus barrel and lower, for $350 6 months ago. $165 for a GM rifle barrel, $165 for a NDS-1 lower, and you have everything this rifle is without the pony. You can farm out the lower to an engraver who will put the pony on it for you, get the whole thing cerakoted the proper color, and buy perfectly refinished furniture and still be more than $1K cheaper. And it's actually a colt (mostly) unlike the new colt ones!
Good job calling them out on their shit and actually asking the rep in person. I agree completely that if this rifle was sold at what it's true price point should have been than it would sell. I've always wanted a "Vietnam era" AR.
I'm pretty sure that no "M16A1s" were factory made with a 3-prong flash hider. In fact, I believe that the late XM16E1s had the birdcage as well (it was approved in Sep 66 and I believe that Colt production ceased at this point). All of that being said, there were some M16A1s in the field that had the 3-prong as some people believed it worked better so it was not unknown for unit armourers to switch out the birdcages for older 3-prongs.
they re-designed the trigger and now it has a false reset (when you let the trigger out and it clicks you can pull it and it wont fire) from what i understand, so much for bringing back the snake series revolvers...
FWIW: The forward assist was the primary feature that made the US Army's XM16E1 different from the USAF's M16. Every XM16E1 had one from the start of their production deliveries in 1964. My sources indicate that the birdcage flash suppressor was approved in September 1966, and began appearing on new production rifles as early as January 1967.
Interestingly enough, Stoner endorsed the Springfield Armory forward assist configuration over the winning design from Colt. Stoner's reasoning was that the Springfield design, incorporated into the charging handle, would be easier to delete from the rifle. It was designed by Springfield Armory's representative to the M16 Technical Coordinating Committee, Charles F. Packard. Here is a link to Packard's patent. www.google.com/patents/US3225653
it's a mish mash, forward assist which is common to both XM16E1 and M16A1, three prong flash eliminator from the XM and full fence lower receiver from the A1, it's a hybrid.
I've got an m16a1 parts kit build on an a2 lower (it has an a1 birdcage and teardrop forward assist for the record) Will they be selling stripped a1 lowers?
I reckon the COLT COMMANDO has just some tubey attachment instead of the original muzzle device which had baffles inside and its classified as silence by ATF (althrough it is not)?
Hey, That M16A1 looks like the rifle we have in our college's security office armory. I remember that they had an exhibit of firearms on our university day.
Yeah man, really had to "retool." Changing some settings on a CNC machine and breaking out the molds for furniture that already exists (apparently in abundance from the amount of retro rifles on the market) is really having to "retool..."
Colt isn't even the ones making them, so why did they have to 'retool' anything? They contracted it out (from what I've read). The video also asked the Colt rep, why the 3 prong with the A1 upper, but another question could have been to ask why the Type D buttstock instead of the Type E with the trapdoor?
I understand the late 1960's M16 had a tear drop forward assist AND the prong flash hide. The SP-1 has a cut BCG but no forward assist. So if this was an SP-1 replica it would be wrong, but for an M16 I understand it is correct. My question is how will this effect the prices of the used Colt AR-15 Market.
Bring the Ruckus the gun is made by US Ordnance.... just like the M1903 Pistol, and colt gatling gun. Colt is not capable of building any of thier older guns, most of the parts drawings and blueprints are gone. US Ordnance had to take 3 original M1903 pistols and reverse engineer The new one...@$1499 each
Just curious, if you were running the gun supressed could you hold the forard assist tp stop the gun from cycling. Keeping it quieter. Or would that just break something? Thanks guys!
i like the feel of the triangle hand guard yes from a history point of view it's awesome, but on the other hand you can get a lot of different shoot able historical firearms for the price there asking. It's kinda crazy.
You guys put "why" instead of "what makes" in the description. Great video guys! Fuck that price tag. Also no fucking why they invite you nerds back next year, xD. Calling out everyone. Love you guys.
I think I can explain this. A bean counter at Colt discovered the market would probably buy 5k units at $1250 each and Colt would still make a profit. Colt's management then decided to double the cost and half the production numbers to make the same profit plus halfing the labor costs. Of course, no buyer in their right mind is going to let themselves be exploited like that, which is part of why Colt went out of business and is now pretty much a vanity division of FN now.
Ian & Karl asking the difficult questions. ☺️ Love the Apple reference to what Colt is doing. Yep, same parts as the other guys but just with an 'exclusive' name slapped on. -Jen
Guys Thank you! Way to really look at Colt. I was hoping that you would have shown the XM177E or GAU-5 that Colt is doing. I have a Troy GAU-5 and I think I am just going to give my business to Troy then Colt. Again thank you for the vid.
Roger that Ian... Thank you for the reply. Keep up the good work! Between your In Range videos and Forgotten Weapons videos you are doing a great job!!!! Thank you.
Tracking down all of the individual A1 parts and slowly building up a rifle is far more appealing to me than buying a pre-built $2500 "Colt" rifle. You learn so much in the process when you take the time to build your own. I've never been one for instant gratification. Though, not so prevalent in the retro AR building subcommunity, there does seem to be a whole lot of dick measuring that goes on in the AR15 world in general. I'm sure the cool kids will buy these up quick.
I just threw the Brownells A1 furniture on a Palmetto AR. That does the job for now until I feel like investing more into it. Cost like $500 max. I can beat it up as much as I want and not worry about it.
I really hope they continue to make the A1 pistol grips and buttstocks (they can be found, but it's not exactly easy) for people that are building retro ARs. They have the opportunity to corner that market at least.
When Colt puts out only 2,500 of something at a $2,499 pricetag, they're not real worried about how it sells. Sales are not their goal for this particular product. If sales were the goal, they'd do what most businesses do: produce a lot of them at a competitive price for their market segment. This is clearly meant to be a collectors' piece, intended for someone who wants something that LOOKS 100%, but doesn't want to pay for a 100% original. I thought the non-functional giggle switch was a pretty good indicator of this. Ian is absolutely right when he says that this is most likely going to end up on a wall, as part of a display, or as a safe queen. I don't think I'd be disappointed about that though. If you want one that's meant to be used, go buy one that's priced to be used. If Colt made an SP-1, that was priced competitively and meant to be used, many would be poo-pooing it because "who cares" about another AR on the market and because Colt would be "recycling old ideas" and "not doing anything new." Karl - Thought you were very polite with the rep. Good on ya. P.S. I really did look for this on Full30 first. :)
Thank you, and I do agree. I didn't want to be a hit piece on them, I just am disappointed. I want to see Colt survive - as they are an American icon, and I fear that these choices don't align with that future state. ~Karl
Karl at 1:22 you point to something (or lack of something??) and say "when this happened" and then point to the forward assist and then something else, maybe something missing behind the ejection port? For those of us who don't shoot ARs and aren't that up on the history of early ARs, what are you pointing to??
Same reason the pocket hammerless was 1300 reissue because it’s iconic and people are willing to pay that much. The bonus to those of use that buy old originals is now new replacement parts exist.
I might be interested in this if they were to simply sell the component parts for these, stocks, handguards, pistolgrips, dust covers, and sight parts are starting to get hard to find in good condition. I think that a lot of people would love to have stripped uppers and lowers available as well. I know that Nodak Spud is doing their darndest to keep up with demand, but that could help relieve some the pressure and allow people to get properly marked lowers without sending a blank lower out to be engraved. I do have one issue with these besides the price, the upper and lower are look really dark, like they might be anodized black instead of grey as the originals and the Nodaks are. I think they might pick up some more interest if they cut the price and anodized them grey or start making some of the more interesting and obscure models like the model 601, 607, 605, and so on. I thought of one other side note about that flash hider. Yes they were phasing out the improved three prong (the Duck Bill was the first version) for the A1 type bird cage, but they probably wanted to use up the stock of existing parts. Also, I've heard that the marines preferred the three prong and would even retro-fit it to rifles that came with the birdcage, if possible.
Holy shit; Ian and Karl are *doing investigative journalism* rather than simply showing off boy's toys and soaking up the marketing every other YT channel. **standing ovation**
Looking at both the lower and upper receivers, it is clear that neither one is in a configuration produced by Colt in over 30 years. The lower doesn't include some of the A2 features, such as the thicker metal around the front takedown pin, and the upper doesn't have the case deflector among other things. The forging dies and blanks had to be changed out for this project, and the barrels are in a profile and twist rate combo no longer produced by Colt either, so if this is all work done "in house" by Colt then this was a fair amount of effort to go to for a limited run.
mingheemouse Yeah, but they could have not limited the run so much, and As Ian said, Troy is building basically the same gun (which would have required retooling on their part as well...) for half price. When it comes down to it Colt is yet again trying to charge a ridiculous premium just for having their logo on the side of the gun. Same issue with the 1903s. They're charging a crazy price for a pistol that had it's R&D completed and paid for about a hundred years ago, I'd say it's even worse in the case of the Colt SAA!!! Why would someone buy either one of these new reissues when they could pay less for an original with more historical/collector value? It kills me because I really do love Colt, but at these prices I'll never get to buy a new one...
You made a mistake. The M-16a1 started being issued in Vietnam in Nov-Dec. 1967. What you are holding there in this video is right but the lower nas the full "fence" around the mag release button, an A-1 feature what you are holding should have a "partial" fence only along the top, and was known as the XM-16e1.
Quick question, you guys kept mentioning that Troy makes a rifle like this; are you saying that Troy makes a M16A1 style rifle? Also great coverage guys! Cheers
Romeo Quach Troy makes the XM177E2 and the USAF GAU-5/A/A And announced a model that was used in the Blackhawk Down incident later this year. I have one of the GAU's
What a dumb move. If these were $799 msrp every single AR fan would add a Colt AR reproduction to their safe. Guaranteed sales! Someone needs to be fired!
The horsey brings a premium, like it or not, so a limited collector's edition will be expensive. As for the flash suppressor, the military is good at mix and match from parts bins, so it is correct, in a 'real world' sense.
To follow up on the 1903--having seen Colt adopt this pricing strategy last year, do you guys have any numbers on how this worked when they did it last year?
There will be people that will pay the higher price just because it is a colt, But colt in the past did bring down the price of it's carbine m4 brand because of the stiff sales from other makers of the m4. The A1 model is still very popular with shooters and collectors.
this is a gun for "collectors" who don't/can't want to source out the real thing. Like the Nintendo retro console thing. Yeah, it's not the real deal, but it's for a niche market. If you're going to buy this as the best firearm for your money, this ain't it, and you are not their audience. Was typing this and then @ 6:00 ian explains it.
Not really. (check your local flea market BTW) I don't know what an actual M16 A1 is going for, but it really doesn't matter. This is for a casual collector. Not a hardcore collector, or someone looking to buy the best bang for their buck. I certainly wouldn't buy one, but it's not marketed for me. To me, it's an overpriced, buying a name, item. Hasn't stopped Beats or Harley Davidson from being successful. Same principle with this.
If I want to crap in a box and put a 10,000 dollar price tag on it, it's not dishonest. Unless they are claiming that these are vintage, when they are newly made.
Couldn't finish the video. Watching that tool from Colt try to justify a $2500 repro made me sick to my stomach. Keep it up Karl, keep asking the hard questions!!
Texas-Mosin88 At least the faux, Japanese made Winchester's are of a quality representative of the brand's reputation while maintaining a sane price point.
lmao Karl and Ian wandering from booth to booth just eviscerating people.
Cole .S and I absolutely love it the look on the mans face was cringy
That Colt rep looked nervous lol. He's like "oh shit, not these guys".
He literally started sweating
🤣🤣🤣🤣
LMAO Colt needs the money that's why.
That would explain why they brought back wheel guns too. If a Python sells for a couple grand these days, they could sell new ones for a good bit as new manufacture.
It'd be nice if Colt would just put guns into production that people actually want.. And at good prices. No one will be lining up in mass for a $2,500 rifle, that can be built for around $1,200 or less using surplus or new parts. The fact they killed their revolver line, and haven't introduced any new semi-auto pistols designs in decades is troubling..
Money on the table that they are sitting near bankruptcy again, and scrambling to try and prop themselves up as something other than a dead name
Indeed a limited production run even at a higher price will not help their financial woes. This price would make sense if they had two variants:
1) A1 Standard, an affordable retro A1 with some short cuts to keep the costs down. Retailing for about $1500
2) A1 Collectors premium, highly accurate replica with no expense spared limited No run. retailing for about $2500
Restoring the revolver line would be a good start then as other US manfacturers have done sign an agreement to re-brand and produce a European (or other) Polymer frame 9mm semi auto.
What the fuck does that have to do with his comment? That rant is fucking unoriginal as fuck and doesn't' even belong. What the hell are you smoking?
*shot show booth displaying an item which is impractical, useless, poorly thought out or ridiculously overpriced sees Ian and Carl walking towards their booth -
- Employees start hyperventilating and panic ensues
As Mr. Krabs once said in a stirring speech, "Hello, I like money."
Colt had to "retool" to build an AR?? Ummm...no you didn't.
Yeah that was bullshit explanation for sure
@@Nuke-China Colt doesn't even forge the recievers
This is necro as hell but yeah they would have. Their machines would need significant retooling to make the old pattern. For a limited production gun like this it makes sense it’s gonna be expensive since all the machines involved will have periods of significant downtime as they are retooled. Since they’re only making a few it’s gonna be expensive
@Storm Shadow "you can't snow the snowman" I love it!
@@jamesstewart3856 Most of the parts on the retro rifle is sub-contracted to other manufacterers, not made by colt itself
so my options are a scar and like 200 rounds of ammo or an old colt....
or 3 m1 garands.....2 with new wood, barrel, finish, ETC
1 shitty rack grade m1 (like my own)....which is probably worn right the fuck out....but, that kinda makes it cool to
Or about three M16A1-style rifles using NoDak Spud and surplus parts. Retro ARs are honestly far superior in handling, shootability, and terminal effectiveness (20" vs 16" barrels) to the tacticrap, but $2500 is far and away too much.
Not just an old Colt, it’s an old Colt with a gritty trigger that costs $2,500.
That Colt rep looked so uncomfortable when you asked him about the MSRP. Lol
Redneck Operations but that sure didn't stop him from being a good company shill and lying about the reason for the price.
David Burke It's not being a shill if you are payed to sell things and you say that you are selling things (not being incognito)
Big time! The Colt rep did not like the price question at all. The rep acted and looked like he knows the real reason, but if he tells the truth he would be fired. So, he gave the scripted line of BS the management told him to say instead.
When you market it as a limited release; go ahead and tack on $1200 extra green cause fuck em that's why.
I love you guys for actually asking real questions straight up.
With all possible respect to the poor spokesmen who is just doing the best he can but the idea that it required a lot of 'retooling' and that justifies the price but that statement pegged the BS meter.
William Prince I have zero respect for the shill. colt isn't even making the gun, they didn't retool anything.
They farmed it out scott
maybe they need "retooling" for the integred carry handle since they probably do only flat upper now,tools for the markings (but that's not expensive nor hard to make),tools for the 3-pong flash-hider and for the handguard.
but apart from that what have change between the m16A1 and modern AR-15?
(i love the facial expression of Karl when the Colt Rep. talk, he's like : WTF MAN?)
sad to see colt trying to limit itself into collectors market
Scott Watrous its made by US Ordnance, colt just sells it... just like the
M1903 pistol at @ $1499 that had to be completely reverse engineered by US Ordnance because the drawings are gone
I believe the Colt rep said 2500 per month. (time stamp 3:03)
InRangeTV has been my favorite coverage SHOT this year. Thank you for not sycophantically buying-in and regurgitating the marketing wank.
You guys have the best Shot Show coverage. Asking relevant questions and challenging the exhibitors instead of just asking them PR questions.
thank you for always asking the real questions, and not holding back. At this point, you're the only shot show coverage I'll watch.
Before Ian called it I thought to myself "Deep pocket collectors".
Sad really
I love the proper journalism you guys are doing. No one will ever accuse you of being in the pocket of a manufacturer. Glad I'm a patron.
Appreciate the hard-hitting honesty from you two where so many channels are willing to whitewash their coverage.
That said, Colt deserves all the financial hardship that comes to it when it makes exclusivity decisions like these. Also kinda laughed when the booth rep had absolutely no explanation for the mixture of rifle features, like Colt never expected anyone to ask those kinds of questions at all.
lmfao! I'll just build one for $850 . thanks for nothing Colt.
I’ll build one for less than their MRSO with a wilson combat barrel, Geissle trigger and nickel boron bolt group.
*mrsp
Nothing on this rifle is "Colt" either
Thank you for going out there and holding the manufacturers' feet to the fire. All the other UA-camrs seem to go out and kiss a bunch of ass... You were able to get some good information without being rude. You could tell the Colt rep was uncomfortable with your questions, which is good. Well done, fellas.
I went to Army Basic Training in Fort Dix, New Jersey in 1976 and was issued a Colt M16a1. We were told by the Drill Sgt that if you break it the cost to the Government would be $200 at that time. Of course, back then $200 was a lot of money. Not to mention that the M16 was full-auto capable, and man that can shoot. We were allowed to fire them at full auto for training purposes.
When you see the full fence lower receiver of the M16A1 you are depicting the rifle around 1967/1968 and that should have a birdcage flash suppressor. The partial fence lower receiver would be depicting an XM16E1, and that rifle would have a 3 prong flash suppressor. I am glad that Colt is doing now what they should have done 50 years ago and giving us a roll marked M16A1 semi auto copy, and I understand about the retooling bit, but Troy has an excellent copy for half the price.
"But muh pony"
*builds overpriced crap*
VonEror built by US Ordnance
VonEror i
You can get a horse marked AR15 for a quarter of the price thanks to Anderson Manufacturing!
Now I feel much better about the ~$1000 I spent when I built my A1 clone.
I enjoy the inrange shot show coverage better than most channels. It nice to see a host actually challenge the company reps on their products instead of the standard "this is so great buy all products"
Colt, the Nintendo of firearms
delet this ;_;
That is so true. There is only one difference Nintendo actually has the money to still pull this shit for the next few years.
I was just thinking the same thing, lol.
Lol yeah.
But I don't see Nintendo over charging. That point I didn't get.
Chase Howard
Yeah 70 bucks for a controller is totally reasonable.
Trained with M16A1s with 3 prong at Ft. Ord 1968. In country Viet Nam 173rd. Airborne early 1969 all of our M16A1s had birdcage. We received some XM177s mid year 1969. Plenty of LSA but cleaning kits were scarce. 20 round magazines only which we loaded with 18. No failures or stoppages.
id spend $1500 at the most, no thanks colt
im going to go with the FN military commemorative that recently came out
+nahh nah I remember Colt's die-hard fanboys were complaining about the price of FN's Military Collector AR15s, and saying that "Only Colt's guns are 100% mil-spec" while regurgitating misinformation about the TDP, I bet they will eat this up though, and they will justify it by again regurgitating more misinformation about the TDP.
1ohtaf1 Just curious, whats the misinformation about the tdp?
+Conrad Clark That FN's AR15s are required to have dimensional discrepancies throughout its design to avoid infringing on Colt's IP. Anyone who knows even a sliver of information about IP law would know that is a completely absurd statement.
Colts a dinosaur. I won't miss them too much
Spectre That's cause you can't afford one haha. You probably own a cheap ruger.
Spectre I sure will miss them. My Colt M4, and A4 are awesome!
Colt is the Ambercrombie and Finch of the gun industry.
"We don't want everyone to own a Colt, just the wealthy. We don't make guns, we make status symbols."
Colt: One step forward, two steps backwards after shooting their own foot.
I'm loving that giant "ARM YOURSELF." banner behind Karl at 02:00. Very dystopian.
God damn, you guys are perfect at this type of thing. You know your stuff but at the same time dig for information and call things out. I hope we keep getting these shotshow videos for a bit longer.
as allways ian a brilliant video i love how you go in debth not just listen to a salesman but your own research brings a real unbiased view, great video mate keep them up
People will snap them up at that price, sit on them for a few months, and you will see them all over the auction sites for $3500
That's why Companies like Colt or H&K have problems with ridiculously high price tag on everything that has their name on it .
"Retooling" means putting Colt markings on Brownells retro A1 receivers.
NDS
I have to agree with you guys 100%. I love that Colt is putting these out but why so limited? I would buy all the models they offer at $1200-1500 a pop, but at $2500 I'm much better off finding a clean SP1 for less.
Guys this was an awesome segment. Ian nailed it with how Colt marketed this rifle. Very obvious. Thanks!
I love these videos because you are asking real questions like real people, instead of just pandering to all the manufactures like all the other Shot Show reports. In just about every other coverage I'm going, "why didn't you ask them this ........ ?!". Not with you guys. Thank you so much.
love your guys videos at SHOT
one of the only channels I really trust won't BS me
I love how you guys don't pull punches here. Fantastic.
You guys are great you all ask the questions none of the reps want to answer. Keep up the good work!
I want an A1 so bad I have some parts I guess I'm going to build one 2500 is to rich for my blood
partizan forces
its not so hard, brownells regularly carries correct a1 uppers and lowers.
I have the grips Originals and some magazines 20rnd geting the rest is on the to do list
the windage drum is the hardest part to find right now, I cannibalized my 10/22 tech sights.
The parts are all still out there, and you can still build it on a budget.
I got a full kit, minus barrel and lower, for $350 6 months ago. $165 for a GM rifle barrel, $165 for a NDS-1 lower, and you have everything this rifle is without the pony. You can farm out the lower to an engraver who will put the pony on it for you, get the whole thing cerakoted the proper color, and buy perfectly refinished furniture and still be more than $1K cheaper. And it's actually a colt (mostly) unlike the new colt ones!
Thanks for keeping them as honest as possible guys!
The A1 birdcage is correct, the 3-prong hadn't been used since 1967 with the A1 being 1970.
You really put that guy on the spot! GOOD JOB!!
Good job calling them out on their shit and actually asking the rep in person. I agree completely that if this rifle was sold at what it's true price point should have been than it would sell. I've always wanted a "Vietnam era" AR.
I love watching you guys cover shot show, you call out everyone's bullshit.
You guys hit the nail on the head. It's the same story with the FN M4 classic.
I'm pretty sure that no "M16A1s" were factory made with a 3-prong flash hider. In fact, I believe that the late XM16E1s had the birdcage as well (it was approved in Sep 66 and I believe that Colt production ceased at this point). All of that being said, there were some M16A1s in the field that had the 3-prong as some people believed it worked better so it was not unknown for unit armourers to switch out the birdcages for older 3-prongs.
Problem with the duckbill was people used them to pry open c ration crates and the prongs bent.
thoughts on the colt revolver?
Can't come up with a compelling reason to spend time looking at it. ~Ian
+InRangeTV
You can officially stamp it as "not worth your money" before the market does?
+InRangeTV The new Cobra? Im not much of revolver guy, but is something wrong with it?
they re-designed the trigger and now it has a false reset (when you let the trigger out and it clicks you can pull it and it wont fire) from what i understand, so much for bringing back the snake series revolvers...
Donald J. Trump thank you Mr. president.
Love the fact that you call out the BS.
FWIW: The forward assist was the primary feature that made the US Army's XM16E1 different from the USAF's M16. Every XM16E1 had one from the start of their production deliveries in 1964.
My sources indicate that the birdcage flash suppressor was approved in September 1966, and began appearing on new production rifles as early as January 1967.
Yep. The Air Force and Stoner himself were very much against the forward assist. Thank you! ~Karl
Interestingly enough, Stoner endorsed the Springfield Armory forward assist configuration over the winning design from Colt. Stoner's reasoning was that the Springfield design, incorporated into the charging handle, would be easier to delete from the rifle. It was designed by Springfield Armory's representative to the M16 Technical Coordinating Committee, Charles F. Packard.
Here is a link to Packard's patent.
www.google.com/patents/US3225653
it's a mish mash, forward assist which is common to both XM16E1 and M16A1, three prong flash eliminator from the XM and full fence lower receiver from the A1, it's a hybrid.
I've got an m16a1 parts kit build on an a2 lower (it has an a1 birdcage and teardrop forward assist for the record)
Will they be selling stripped a1 lowers?
Adam
Only 2 more years until they go back into production...
I reckon the COLT COMMANDO has just some tubey attachment instead of the original muzzle device which had baffles inside and its classified as silence by ATF (althrough it is not)?
Hey, That M16A1 looks like the rifle we have in our college's security office armory.
I remember that they had an exhibit of firearms on our university day.
Karl has a fire rate of about 90 blinks per minute in his interview with the colt rep
It's the pervitin. ~Karl
InrangeTV no punches pulled! Tune in again next time to your only source of hardcore, hard hitting, Shot 2017 coverage!
Yeah man, really had to "retool."
Changing some settings on a CNC machine and breaking out the molds for furniture that already exists (apparently in abundance from the amount of retro rifles on the market) is really having to "retool..."
They retooled the price...
As much as I feel sorry for the reps, it’s refreshing to see a gun channel actually challenging companies on their practices
Thanks for asking an honest but awkward question everyone else has.
Colt isn't even the ones making them, so why did they have to 'retool' anything? They contracted it out (from what I've read).
The video also asked the Colt rep, why the 3 prong with the A1 upper, but another question could have been to ask why the Type D buttstock instead of the Type E with the trapdoor?
For $2500 might as well get a preban rifle like an AUG A1 or an FNC.
I understand the late 1960's M16 had a tear drop forward assist AND the prong flash hide. The SP-1 has a cut BCG but no forward assist. So if this was an SP-1 replica it would be wrong, but for an M16 I understand it is correct. My question is how will this effect the prices of the used Colt AR-15 Market.
At this rate none of the reps will want to chat with y'all 😂. Keep up the good work guys!
Bring the Ruckus the gun is made by US Ordnance.... just like the M1903 Pistol, and colt gatling gun.
Colt is not capable of building any of thier older guns, most of the parts drawings and blueprints are gone.
US Ordnance had to take 3 original M1903 pistols and reverse engineer
The new one...@$1499 each
Just curious, if you were running the gun supressed could you hold the forard assist tp stop the gun from cycling. Keeping it quieter. Or would that just break something? Thanks guys!
i like the feel of the triangle hand guard yes from a history point of view it's awesome, but on the other hand you can get a lot of different shoot able historical firearms for the price there asking. It's kinda crazy.
You guys put "why" instead of "what makes" in the description. Great video guys! Fuck that price tag.
Also no fucking why they invite you nerds back next year, xD. Calling out everyone. Love you guys.
I think I can explain this.
A bean counter at Colt discovered the market would probably buy 5k units at $1250 each and Colt would still make a profit. Colt's management then decided to double the cost and half the production numbers to make the same profit plus halfing the labor costs. Of course, no buyer in their right mind is going to let themselves be exploited like that, which is part of why Colt went out of business and is now pretty much a vanity division of FN now.
Ian & Karl asking the difficult questions. ☺️
Love the Apple reference to what Colt is doing. Yep, same parts as the other guys but just with an 'exclusive' name slapped on.
-Jen
Guys Thank you! Way to really look at Colt. I was hoping that you would have shown the XM177E or GAU-5 that Colt is doing. I have a Troy GAU-5 and I think I am just going to give my business to Troy then Colt. Again thank you for the vid.
Colt's retro carbines aren't available yet - they didn't have any here. ~Ian
Roger that Ian... Thank you for the reply. Keep up the good work! Between your In Range videos and Forgotten Weapons videos you are doing a great job!!!! Thank you.
spacedredd all of the colt retro M16 line is made by US Ordnance
Tracking down all of the individual A1 parts and slowly building up a rifle is far more appealing to me than buying a pre-built $2500 "Colt" rifle. You learn so much in the process when you take the time to build your own. I've never been one for instant gratification.
Though, not so prevalent in the retro AR building subcommunity, there does seem to be a whole lot of dick measuring that goes on in the AR15 world in general. I'm sure the cool kids will buy these up quick.
The Black Smegma its a US Ordnance gun made for colt
I just threw the Brownells A1 furniture on a Palmetto AR. That does the job for now until I feel like investing more into it. Cost like $500 max. I can beat it up as much as I want and not worry about it.
I really hope they continue to make the A1 pistol grips and buttstocks (they can be found, but it's not exactly easy) for people that are building retro ARs. They have the opportunity to corner that market at least.
If tomorrow Colt went out of business, I wouldn't shed a tear!
When Colt puts out only 2,500 of something at a $2,499 pricetag, they're not real worried about how it sells. Sales are not their goal for this particular product. If sales were the goal, they'd do what most businesses do: produce a lot of them at a competitive price for their market segment.
This is clearly meant to be a collectors' piece, intended for someone who wants something that LOOKS 100%, but doesn't want to pay for a 100% original. I thought the non-functional giggle switch was a pretty good indicator of this. Ian is absolutely right when he says that this is most likely going to end up on a wall, as part of a display, or as a safe queen.
I don't think I'd be disappointed about that though. If you want one that's meant to be used, go buy one that's priced to be used. If Colt made an SP-1, that was priced competitively and meant to be used, many would be poo-pooing it because "who cares" about another AR on the market and because Colt would be "recycling old ideas" and "not doing anything new."
Karl - Thought you were very polite with the rep. Good on ya.
P.S. I really did look for this on Full30 first. :)
Thank you, and I do agree. I didn't want to be a hit piece on them, I just am disappointed. I want to see Colt survive - as they are an American icon, and I fear that these choices don't align with that future state.
~Karl
Agreed entirely.
Karl at 1:22 you point to something (or lack of something??) and say "when this happened" and then point to the forward assist and then something else, maybe something missing behind the ejection port? For those of us who don't shoot ARs and aren't that up on the history of early ARs, what are you pointing to??
The forward assist.
Same reason the pocket hammerless was 1300 reissue because it’s iconic and people are willing to pay that much. The bonus to those of use that buy old originals is now new replacement parts exist.
I might be interested in this if they were to simply sell the component parts for these, stocks, handguards, pistolgrips, dust covers, and sight parts are starting to get hard to find in good condition. I think that a lot of people would love to have stripped uppers and lowers available as well. I know that Nodak Spud is doing their darndest to keep up with demand, but that could help relieve some the pressure and allow people to get properly marked lowers without sending a blank lower out to be engraved. I do have one issue with these besides the price, the upper and lower are look really dark, like they might be anodized black instead of grey as the originals and the Nodaks are. I think they might pick up some more interest if they cut the price and anodized them grey or start making some of the more interesting and obscure models like the model 601, 607, 605, and so on. I thought of one other side note about that flash hider. Yes they were phasing out the improved three prong (the Duck Bill was the first version) for the A1 type bird cage, but they probably wanted to use up the stock of existing parts. Also, I've heard that the marines preferred the three prong and would even retro-fit it to rifles that came with the birdcage, if possible.
Holy shit; Ian and Karl are *doing investigative journalism* rather than simply showing off boy's toys and soaking up the marketing every other YT channel. **standing ovation**
Hmm Apple Macintosh of firearms industri. You mean that Colt sell old crappy guns for high prices? :D
Hast this M16A1 the same reliability issues as the ones first handed out during the vietnam war?
Looking at both the lower and upper receivers, it is clear that neither one is in a configuration produced by Colt in over 30 years. The lower doesn't include some of the A2 features, such as the thicker metal around the front takedown pin, and the upper doesn't have the case deflector among other things. The forging dies and blanks had to be changed out for this project, and the barrels are in a profile and twist rate combo no longer produced by Colt either, so if this is all work done "in house" by Colt then this was a fair amount of effort to go to for a limited run.
mingheemouse Yeah, but they could have not limited the run so much, and As Ian said, Troy is building basically the same gun (which would have required retooling on their part as well...) for half price. When it comes down to it Colt is yet again trying to charge a ridiculous premium just for having their logo on the side of the gun. Same issue with the 1903s. They're charging a crazy price for a pistol that had it's R&D completed and paid for about a hundred years ago, I'd say it's even worse in the case of the Colt SAA!!! Why would someone buy either one of these new reissues when they could pay less for an original with more historical/collector value? It kills me because I really do love Colt, but at these prices I'll never get to buy a new one...
You made a mistake. The M-16a1 started being issued in Vietnam in Nov-Dec. 1967. What you are holding there in this video is right but the lower nas the full "fence" around the mag release button, an A-1 feature what you are holding should have a "partial" fence only along the top, and was known as the XM-16e1.
Quick question, you guys kept mentioning that Troy makes a rifle like this; are you saying that Troy makes a M16A1 style rifle? Also great coverage guys!
Cheers
Romeo Quach Troy makes the XM177E2 and the USAF GAU-5/A/A
And announced a model that was used in the Blackhawk Down incident later this year. I have one of the GAU's
I'll just buy an SP1 instead. Almost got a 1967 dated one last weekend for 1500, went back for it and it was gone :(
ZzBiohazzardzZ at least the SP1 is made by colt... these new ones are US Ordnance
DACFalloutRanger Indeed.
Johnny Lewis Whaaat? They aren't even made by Colt? Didn't they say they had re-tool and all that to make these?
What a dumb move. If these were $799 msrp every single AR fan would add a Colt AR reproduction to their safe. Guaranteed sales! Someone needs to be fired!
You guys should do an InRange podcast.
The horsey brings a premium, like it or not, so a limited collector's edition will be expensive. As for the flash suppressor, the military is good at mix and match from parts bins, so it is correct, in a 'real world' sense.
The M16A1 with the 3 prong flash suppressor is the 1967 version.
To follow up on the 1903--having seen Colt adopt this pricing strategy last year, do you guys have any numbers on how this worked when they did it last year?
Love the booth review. Keeping it real! Subscribed
Subscribed for the honest review
Does anyone know where I can find an upper like that? 20 inch barrel, rifle length, teardrop forward assist.
Great review, give them hell! Good hard questions.
There will be people that will pay the higher price just because it is a colt, But colt in the past did bring down the price of it's carbine m4 brand because of the stiff sales from other makers of the m4. The A1 model is still very popular with shooters and collectors.
this is a gun for "collectors" who don't/can't want to source out the real thing. Like the Nintendo retro console thing. Yeah, it's not the real deal, but it's for a niche market.
If you're going to buy this as the best firearm for your money, this ain't it, and you are not their audience. Was typing this and then @ 6:00 ian explains it.
CapnHolic except the retro Nintendo is $60, which is less than a "real" NES sells for. exactly the opposite of this situation.
Not really. (check your local flea market BTW) I don't know what an actual M16 A1 is going for, but it really doesn't matter. This is for a casual collector. Not a hardcore collector, or someone looking to buy the best bang for their buck.
I certainly wouldn't buy one, but it's not marketed for me. To me, it's an overpriced, buying a name, item. Hasn't stopped Beats or Harley Davidson from being successful. Same principle with this.
Well instead of paying 60 bucks for 30 emulated games you could just get the ROMs totally free on your PC.
If I want to crap in a box and put a 10,000 dollar price tag on it, it's not dishonest. Unless they are claiming that these are vintage, when they are newly made.
Oh, trying to keep it correct. Also, oh it's the prong flash hider because it looks cool.
Couldn't finish the video. Watching that tool from Colt try to justify a $2500 repro made me sick to my stomach. Keep it up Karl, keep asking the hard questions!!
Is this a sign that the end of Colt is near? Feels a lot like what happened to Winchester.
Texas-Mosin88 At least the faux, Japanese made Winchester's are of a quality representative of the brand's reputation while maintaining a sane price point.
Conrad Clark I think they're just made in Japan, American owned. Idk