I'm so glad you pointed out the mocking. When I watched that video I was hoping to get good insight from a new perspective, not "haha look at how she fixes her glasses and speaks funny!". As someone with a speech impediment, this is the exact kind of thing I get worried about when talking, and it makes you so self conscious. Would it really hurt to leave the mocking behind? We're not high school bullies anymore 💀
Speech impediments are charming as heck. Don't let people who make comments like that prevent you from trying things you want a do. You have a built in trait that's memorable and sticks out, lean into it babayy
Ikr I don't like Kelsey at all but she's mentioned in a video of her receiving extensive rude comments on her looks and mannerisms that it made her very self conscious :/
exactly!! we should never be making fun of people for things like this. being self conscious of the way I look and speak held me back from creating videos for a long time, I don’t want anyone feeling like that ❤️
This is an actual business model in the guru sphere. You make money, not by living the life/philosophy/work you promote but by selling the methodology to live as such. Do as I sell, not as I do. Think "Rich Dad Poor Dad".
That’s really interesting, thank you for sharing! Reminds me of a thought I had about how I feel like people don’t think enough about the term “influencer.” They’re called that because they are literally influencing you to buy products by convincing you that you NEED what they’re selling. You need it to live like them, look like them, be happy like them. Convincing us that we have a problem and they have a solution
@@rubys_trinkets There's always money in selling aesthetics and ideas. As so many often are, if you're ever looking for a podcast to pick up, try "If Book's Could Kill". They cover a lot of this kind of stuff.
@@Axiasart More recently, she's talked about how she stopped making art altogether even while still making videos about how to make money while doing art.
My biggest problem I was getting from art youtubers doing more content than art was that if you tried to copy what they were doing, you don’t end up creating art anymore, you become a teacher. Now, that’s not a problem, but then your audience is mainly other artists, not the target audience who wants to buy your art. I’m getting away from those art business channels because watching them so much influences how I wanna do my content, which isn’t what I want. I’m interested in finding my target demographic. If there’s some crossover between people who want to buy my art and artists, cool. But mainly I want to find the crowd that really gets ME, what I do and feels like supporting me and my art. The person I really look up to for that is Frannerd. She’s built an audience of people who care about her, her life AND her art. That’s the dream right there!
You bring up very good points!! I’ve also thought about what it means to have an audience of mostly other artists, it’s true that it puts you in a more teacher/mentor role. It’s absolutely valid to NOT want to do that, it sounds like you have a strong idea of what you want and that’s awesome!! ❤
Yep big agree and mood. I kind of fell into that trap of "art teacher" as well and i want to move away from that and make videos that i enjoy making and viewers come back to for **me** rather than videos that are trending
@@myrapaulus727 oh, definitely. And not knocking it. If someone sees what I’m doing in a video and learns a technique from it, cool. But it’s not the only way to make money as an artist. I feel people who are able to branch out from the art teacher role tend to have audiences from all walks of life who come together in supporting an artist because of the things that the artist believes in and promotes. That’s the kind of audience I’m really interested in fostering in my community :)
Same here! And I’m realizing I’m the future with my channel I want balance. It’s okay to show the business side, but it shouldn’t consume it. It was starting to make me feel guilty when I saw other artists making merch or selling a ton.
I think my only issue with Kelsey is her advice could apply to ANY business. Calling herself an artist is fine because she literally paints but at the end of the day, that feels more like a hobby while her content (her income) isn't 'art related' but entrepreneurial related. I think better advice could come from someone who has already done art business-specific things ( selling wholesale, selling on consignment, running an online shop that is primarily art, working freelance ( contracts, agents, percentages), doing in-person events ( artist alley, markets etc.). But it seems like Kelsey hasnt done any of those things or really talks in depth about those things that really do make real money outside of social media. She focuses on the social media and audience aspect when that again feels like entrepreneurial content not art-specific. Just listen to 'Illustration department podcast' or Three Point Perspective podcast' they interview real working artist and its mind-blowing to see all the different streams of income outside of social media ( something you can use in your art career but isnt art career specific its for ANYONE running a business)
That's why I have so much respect for Rafi and Klee. Real artists, making lots of art and making a living from it. Their advice is real and usable and never feels slimy, unlike.....
I agree, Kelsey gives good entrepreneurial and marketing advice, and it CAN be applied to art business. But it can also be applied to any other kind of business, it’s really not specific to art
The reality is, businesses this day and age are going to have a lot in common and I think the work world tends to attract a lot of people who either aren’t aware of that or refused to acknowledge it. There wouldn’t be such a huge problem with certain artists working for free for “exposure” and devaluing the entire industry if that wasn’t the case
Kelsey specializes in social media marketing (for artists). It's good for people looking for social media marketing advice, not for anything else. It's like going to Nike, buying a hat and complaining that it's not as good as their shoes. If you're looking for clothes at a soup store, that's on you.
@@HandleToBeDetermined That's fine, but where is the evidence that she has succeeded in marketing her art. From what I understand, the first video she made that had any kind of success was one in which she outlined how much money she had made and how she had made it. The art content she posted after that got nowhere near the views. She made more money from that video than she had from anything before and so she posted another "how much I made" video which showed the increased income from that first video. Every time she made another such video she made even more money while personally admitting that her art videos weren't getting many views and so she would make more "how to make money content" because that was what pays. So yes, she has credentials for how to make money using social media marketing, but not how to make money marketing art. Going to Nike to buy a hat is nothing like clothes shopping at a soup store. Nike has for many decades made all kinds of sports wear and has a reputation for a certain quality across all of its products. Nike can sell sports caps and other sportswear because it first built some credibility in the sphere of running shoes and then diversified to include other sportswear of equal quality and usefulness. Sure there may be some good info in Kelsey's content, eg generating passive income, diversifying your offerings, building a brand identity, but you can get that anywhere. It's the con that she is successful as an artist that is disingenuous.
I watched her video and I immediately realized that it didn't fit my approach to art since I am not a content creator, I am an art creator. However, I still watched the whole thing before I knew there was any drama and found it helpful. It helped me better understand what I do NOT want to do to make money. That hustle is just not for me. All I am trying to say is that videos like that are helpful. It's something she is doing while being an artist, so why can't she make a video about it? If a bodybuilder cooks elaborate meals to get the body that wins them a trophy, why can't they post cooking videos? Same applies here. A business side of an artist's career is just as real as a cooking side of a bodybuilder's career.
I like your mindset! It’s good to acknowledge that something can be unhelpful to you, but it could be helpful for others. It’s nice to hear someone who doesn’t find Kelsey’s videos applicable defend her. Thank you for this nuanced comment!
I think it’s a bit the blind leading the blind when it comes to Kelsey. Which can still be helpful in a way, because community can be very encouraging. I’ve been on her discord though, and the best advice for most of the artists there would be to stop watching art business content and worrying about how to market your art for at least a year and focus on honing their craft first. Working on marketing and business too soon is a waste of time and can become discouraging.
Unfortunately, I've seen many artists worrying about marketing when their product isn't very good. It's not a matter of taste when composition, perspective and anatomy are just not good.
This is the best advice everybody should listen to! I've wasted several years worrying about content creation, marketing and all of this other stuff. Then I noticed that I don't have a solid art portfolio, heck I don't even have a style and I'm still not very good yet.
As someone who is creative, but is an outsider of the "Art Community", it has always been my perception that "Art people" care more about the fantasy of the "Artist Lifestyle" than the realities of making that lifestyle happen. Its barely surprising that the channels who paint an asthetic depiction of the life most people want are loved, and the channel that helps you grapple with the hard part of that dream is hated.
I'm an artist. I make my living as mail carrier. I make some money doing art but I learned a long time ago that doing art to pay my bills took the fun out of doing art.
I totally agree with your strategy, David. I am an artist. But I have a career as a nurse. I don't think many artists promote this thinking of keeping stress and outside influence out of your art sphere by not needing your art to sell to survive
The same applies to writing. My most freeing creativity happens around fanfic because its for fun. I have too much anxiety trying to sell original stories.
@@veronicabaranowski6976 I suffer from anxiety, also. Just don't give it control over the growth in your writing journey. I hope that someday you will share your stories.
I also have a full time career, which is demanding and stressful but pays well. Problem is, leaves me very little energy to be creative. I did work full time as an artist in the 1990s, and it was nice, but also very hard. I would sell 6 paintings, then not sell anything for a few months. The money never was enough compared to the time it took to complete a painting. And I had no health benefits, something I would not consider now. I lived with my boyfriend at the time, and had my parents to help me out if I came up short on the bills. Not sure I would have been able to do it if I lived on my own. So, yeah - selling your work isn’t that hard, but selling enough as a freelance artist to support yourself is another, and there is a lot of pressure.
Same! I love art, and my parents even questioned why I didn't enter an art college instead of medical school, but that's because I cannot handle stress when it comes to artistic hobbies like drawing and writing, so I'd much prefer work in a job that I'm not emotionally invested in while enjoying my art for myself without having to worry how to sell them.
I don't know much about Kelsey or her content, but I do know that entrepreneurial videos even ones about art can have a really bad habit of packaging well known generic information without going into detail about the specifics. (sometimes those specifics are paywalled! And that's only because those specifics don't work anymore!) the system we exist on is hyper competitive and so I raise my eyebrow HARD at people making claims or giving advice about their business. Because, a lot of the time, the Real information is not something they're willing to give away because every viewer can be potential competition. I think that's why Morgue reflexively called it a scam when it's more misleading, opaque, and at its worst: dishonest. A lot of business advice is ephemeral and weirdly shallow. Most businesses will not share their growth tips nor any specific marketing advice that can actually be helpful or eye-opening because businesses will always, ALWAYS want you to buy something and are not friendly to competition in the same topic or niche. Watch out for Shovel Salesmen pretending to be Miners!
They probably called it a scam because it also mirrors a lot of the scams happening in youtube, people selling courses on how to make "passive income" and often they are teaching a method which doesn't work and they are actually making money selling the courses.
You hit the nail on the head! I’ve come to that realization watching videos these videos or even those with the title “spend a day with me” or “day in the life of” yet nowhere in the video do you see them planning their content ideas or managing their socials when that’s their main “business” We might be impressed by it but it’s so shallow and generic if you really think about it
I will say this Kelsey is not an mlm or a scam but saying shes has an art business is a stretch when its not her main source. Shes more a marketing content creator FOR art. Shes selling marketing help that so happens to BE an art shop. The studio vlogs feel more real because you see the work and from what I've noticed they speak more about the actual art process. I feel like mentioning Inkwell because he goes to conventions to make his sales. For me hearing how you can make art work off of the internet is way more helpful then just selling on etsy or an online store and making video ads. I saw other videos on murals and freelance. Again, it's not just online buzz. So many artists' are tired of the internet, now infact when i saw that Yonemai mai had a gallery I relaized I didn't want to be an internet artist. I think many who see Kelsey are disappointed because the videos are almost completely unrelated to art.
Your video is a very welcome addition to this conversation. Thank you so much for making it! I'm glad Morgue took the initial dive into this discussion, but I shared your frustration with the video's weaknesses, namely that the videos being critiqued are very straightforwardly NOT pyramid schemes and the mocking of Kelsey's mannerisms. I think you're right that the issue is less that videos like Kelsey's are scams, and more that they present a very very narrow view of how to have an art career. UA-camrs like Kelsey often present their strategy as being more democratic or barrier-free than a traditional art career but that's not really true, it just has different barriers. It's just as subject to luck and privilege as any other art career paths. I think Kelsey could benefit from getting out of the UA-cam bubble more often, but ultimately it's the responsibility of the viewer to have a wide field of vision and get inspiration and education from lots of different sources. I've noticed there's a lot of tropes on "artist youtube" that are big topics for discussion that just don't really exist outside that context, and this kind of business advice is one of them. Another good example is the "how to find your art style" topic on which there are so many videos. I never ever hear artists discussing having or finding their "art style" outside of youtube, they're much more likely to talk about what inspires or excites them and how that informs their work. I think that's a much healthier and more useful way to talk about it, and is a good example of how artist youtube can go down these discourse rabbit holes that are really unproductive and demoralizing for people. I'm glad to see a new generation of artist youtubers like you that are maybe starting to push against the popularity of these tropes. I'm excited to watch the rest of your videos ☺
You make lots of good points! I agree, it was good that this conversation was brought up in the original video, but it had some issues. I’m so happy to see people like yourself thinking deeply about this and sharing productive ideas! Thank you so much from commenting and supporting, I’m excited to bring new perspective to this space!
This is a super interesting conversation! I'm someone who makes my full-time income as an artist, in the very same way described, ie: I make vlogs and social media content that serves as marketing, but sell paintings, prints, products, patreon etc. It's really easy to over romanticise the idea of being a full-time creative, and I think Kelsey does a good job of explaining that it takes a lot of discipline and planning, and often the resources to figure out how to operate are not accessible or easy to find. The thing is, there's tons of people who make their full income off of being artists, and some of them have youtube channels where they share their life and are transparent about the business, but WAY MORE people just operate in a completely different sphere and straight up do not have time or energy to make UA-cam videos because they are busy writing grants, doing freelance projects, painting murals, selling at markets etc. There's only a limited amount of time in a day afterall and making videos is a ton of work. There are as many ways to *be* an artist as there are artists, and just because your full income doesn't come from art doesn't mean you can't call yourself an artist. If you're an art teacher and you make art, you're an artist. If you're a barista and you make art, you're an artist.
I agree, there’s so many different ways to approach art careers. You’re right that being a UA-camr with an art shop gets romanticized, when it’s actually a lot of time and work! But it’s the kind of work I WANT to do, and I only figured that out with Kelsey’s explanations of art business. Also, I love your videos and your art!! You were one of the artists who inspired me to pursue this path, I’m so honoured you watched my video ❤
@@rubys_trinkets You're killing it for being a new channel!! It truly is the best job ever but you have to really want it, which you can tell that you do. and thank you so much!!
Yes but I think if you make the majority of your money from being a barista or an art teacher.. and then you claim that that’s you making money as an artist ..which is what you are further selling to people.. that can quickly muddy the water and mislead people into thinking your primary source of money is your art. So yes, you can be an artist regardless but also… claiming that you make money off of art when it’s via content creation that is not around your art specifically is a misleading thing to do. Kelsey’s advice is good and it’s adjacent to art but her own art is rarely the focus of her videos. The people watching her content want to make money with their art.. which isn’t what she is doing. She could stop doing art entirely in secret and only focus on her business videos for artists and still make pretty much the same amount of money. Her being transparent and calling herself an art UA-camr is the right way to go and I am glad she made that change.
Something that I learned right after university when job hunting was that while it is really necessary to have a skill, a bit of knowledge in business and marketing goes a long way. It's how you market yourself, and then you get customers. So artists who make business videos need to be praised rather than labeled as "scams".
The reason Morgue's criticisms are valid is because KR makes the majority of her revenue from coaching, selling digital resources for artists, and "how to be a full time artist" videos. While sure, she's "transparent" about this, it doesn't change the fact that none of this involves others buying her art, or her even really making art. In the most recent video I saw of KR's, she showed her backend page on Kofi, if you paused the video, you saw that the majority of her sales were the digital how-to products, not her art. She also tries to funnel people to her coaching a ton in her videos. From experience, that tells me she's not giving me the full story so I will do her coaching. Morgue brought up a great point in another video of theirs: the majority of art content online uses the art as B-roll for the para-social content, the video essay, the hot take, the customer rant, some small business advice, reading a stolen "AITAH?" reddit post, etc. It's rarely the primary pull. Even this video is an example of that, I was watching for your take, not your art, even though your art is lovely, As an aspiring artist, I am trying to figure out how to authentically market my art as the primary pull, and to avoid leveraging a weird para-social "connection" to sell, and frankly, I am wondering if that's even possible in 2024.
This is absolutely right, it's almost impossible unless your art is exceptionally masterful or even better some form of entertainment in itself, and if that isn't the case there needs to be a story tied to it that keep the viewers engaged throughout the video. This is an art form in itself! 🤯
Make your art. Find your voice or your style. You make money *after* you become successful. You're not successful because you made a bunch of money. The money is the result of success. People think it's the other way around and while there may be some outliers that fell into a pile of cash, any artist worth a damn became a master of their craft over the course of decades. Make art with your heart and soul and figure out what you want to say within your medium. People will find it and support it with or without social media. Art has been around since humans evolved(30,000 to 100,000 years ago), social media has only been around 20ish years.
I'm totally doing the mostly B roll footage thing right now because I need people to know me. I need eyes on my art, even if it can't be _about_ my art yet. The hard truth is that no one cares about your art unless you have professional skill and can pump it out like a machine so it's guaranteed to be seen. You have to make them fall in love with _you,_ endear them as best you can, THEN they'll actually give a shit about your passions.
You are sadly so right-you can be the worlds most fantastic artist but if you just sit in your chamber not showing it you will never be ” seen”. The awful truth, one that disgusts most people who are artists, is that you have to violate your own dignity and you have to ” sell yourself ”. We wish we could just be ” found” on our own merits but that is sadly not just done. In order to make a living it is more done to being skilled in selling yourself rather than being a good artist. That is why you seee some rather awful art and mediocre artists being rised to the sky when other, often much better, artists with integrity make a pittance. The art world is not fair in any way-it is not a meritocracy at all. There are van Goghs out there who fade away without anyone who even promoted their art even after they are gone end even less when they were alive. Sad.
The parasocial part is so true, there's another artist I follow and while most of her content is art studio related, her advice is basically to make people have a parasocial relationship with you in order to sell your art to them, not mentioning she started with that "let me show you my unrealistically income I presumably make by selling art" strategy by calling herself a "millionaire small business owner"
My opinion on Morgue video is probably tainted by the fact that I watch the video about how he didn't feel he could make his art work on UA-cam first ("It's UA-cam, not MEtube"), so to me, it felt that he was coming from a place where he was looking for a way to make people online care about his art (and eventually suport him) but when looking for advice he found channels that gave him the anwser "sell a course about art". The thing that stuck to me about the second video was that he didn't want and audience of artist, I don't think he would be mad to have one, but that he wants a more diverse group of people interested in his art, so his focus was on what type of audience that type of "art channels" have. I think there is something to be said about someone whose primary audience are artist selling the idea that they know how to market towards the general public, and I think that's where Morgue was coming from. I like Kelsey's videos, but I still think there is something there to be talk about. (Also, you had a great conclusion for the video)
That’s an interesting thought, about having an audience of other artists or the general public. The way artists and non-artists interact with art content is bound to be different, I never really thought about that! I’m glad you liked my conclusion, thank you! And I agree, I think Kelsey makes good videos. But it’s definitely worth exploring what it means to have an audience of inexperienced artists who are looking for guidance
Ruby, this was an exceptional video. I too studied animation and fine art - and everything you said is spot on Sitting on the side of the road selling art is no way to make a living, it almost never has Artists often struggle with the business side of things because of how inhumane successful businesspeople can be about it (like the guy who just got reelected president) Diversity, networking, making a name for yourself - are all mandatory skills to get your artwork in front of eyeballs. Think about it this way… Who would you rather do business with, someone who shares valuable things with you and creates a rapport with you or someone who just shoves a painting in front of your face and asks you to buy it? Remember, people hire people first
You've got a good breakdown here. I think part of the problem is that a lot of people who are new to art as a profession rather than a hobby have an unrealistically romantic idea of what it means to be professional and what it entails. Artists who make money on their art have never been solely artists. And what sells is rarely about the art itself. That's not new; Van Gogh (for one example) was nobody and never sold a painting and died broke. It was his sister in law, after he and her husband were both dead and she needed money, who used marketing to turn him into a premium artist whose work every collector just had to have. It's the same on and off line in this respect. A gallery isn't going to pick up your (general you, not you you) art based solely on the art. You have to be able to market yourself and your art has to be consistent enough for it to be connected to you by sight so that collectors can use it as a status indicator. If you want to make money off your art, you can't just hang out and paint all day, and I think a lot of people think that's what it means to be an artist. In this particular case, by creating helpful videos that answer the questions her community is asking her to create videos on, she's building "helpful" or "educator" into her personal brand, and that will help open doors to offline sales because she can demonstrate people care about what she has to say.
"have an unrealistically romantic idea of what it means to be professional and what it entails." THIS! Working for ourselves as artist is going to make demands of us bc no matter what we do, we're still the owner of a business. There are probably art career trajectories that allow artists to simply wake up, make art and go to bed but what that likely means is that they're working for someone else who handles all the business side tasks. And those types of art careers are going to be rare in the current economy. And I'm just being generous here in case there are careers like this and I'm misinformed but I don't think that these careers even exist tbh (and likely never did).
I agree with you that you need marketing however the claim that Van Gogh was "unkown" depends on what you mean with that. His familiy, especially his uncle was from the art scene, Van Gogh was known there. He even organized events with artists. Qoute: "The exhibit is accurate. Van Gogh was definitely on his way to be famous when he died. In the months preceding his death, a particularly laudative article was written about him that put him in the limelight, and, for the first time, some of his paintings were exhibited and noticed. He had people publicly supporting him. It was a matter of time before more people started writing about his genius and that he became a bankable artist. However, even in the "what if" scenario of Vincent Van Gogh not dying in July 1890, his deteriorating mental stability and the death of his brother Theo, who was his main supporter, would have been serious impediments to his rise to fame. Counterfactual history has its limits! The usual narrative is that Van Gogh was a misunderstood, crazy artist who toiled in loneliness and obscurity until his death. There's some truth in that but it does not tell the whole story. Van Gogh benefitted from a remarkable social and cultural capital. If one had asked an art connaisseur Parisian about Van Gogh in the mid-1880s, he would have answered "which one?". His uncle Vincent "Cent" Van Gogh had been a prominent and wealthy art dealer and collector whose collection was auctioned off in Paris in 1888. Two other uncles, Cornelius Marinus "C.M" Van Gogh and Hendrik "Hein" Van Gogh, were also in the business. Vincent's brother Theo was managing the Parisian branch of the fine-arts company Goupil & Cie." The art gallery market is most likely impossible to penetrate without the correct relationships. If he wasnt from a family with art history, he may never would have been. Artists hate in many cases marketing but they need it to survive.
imo, unfortunately in a hyper capitalist society, being an artist means that 50% of your effort will be spent on marketing, advertising yourself and your art. capitalists have highjacked the arts and turned it into this thing to be consumed, which is why we have AI generated images being used by billion dollar corporations to replace artists just to pump out content to be consumed as fast as possible to make as much profits as possible. i dont think shes a scammer, i think shes more of an entrepreneur who focuses heavily on marketing her art career, which can be useful information for an artist. at the end of the day, even if you work a part time job, if youre making art you love and youre happy with the results, youre a successful artist. money doesnt mean shit in terms of success. also, well thought out video! keep up the great work.
Art on a professional level has always been tied to money. Think all the Christian artists in Europe.. wealthy patrons and the church…until wealthy citizens started commissioning portraits. The idea that artist live purely for art is a post modern scam that has never existed outside of wealthy people.
Yes exactly! The consumption of art really changes the way art careers function, and marketing and entrepreneurship is just part of the deal for many artists. I appreciate your comment!! ❤
@@nah5491That’s very true, we talked a lot about art only being for the wealthy through patrons in art history classes. Artists have never been able to make art full-time without having some kind of financial support from others
@@rubys_trinkets One way to get that financial support is to make your money outside of art. You'll probably earn more and have just as much time, if not more, for actually creating art. This frees you up to make the art you feel compelled to make, rather than something you think will sell quickly.
Adam Duff's breakdown on Moran's few recent videos I feel are worth watching. While I haven't seen Morgan's original video, Adam's breakdown mostly shows his update to the pyramid scheme video in full so I got the gist of it. I'd say Morgan doesn't have the experience and mileage needed to be making the critiques he does. I understand the frustration of trying to put your work out there but it seems he did so for a short period of time and expected a miracle. Then when he wasn't an instant success he decided the system was the problem rather than to change his approach. All it shows is how immature he is in that respect IMHO.
I like Adam but his biased, the artists being criticised are his friends, colleagues and I think he dismissed Morgan too easily, Morgan had valid points, specially when you look at other places of the Internet and very similarly packaged things are called scams, like all of the passive income people.
I don't feel scammed through Kelsey at all. She is absolutely honest in her videos about how her content is mostly about business. In fact she struggled herself with this identity as someone who provides mostly business knowledge in her video. Calling herself an art-youtuber now is the end of a process she did go through. Things in life are fluid and she evolved herself into an art business consultant. But this does not mean that she is no full-time-artist anymore! She runs a successful business using her creative ability and I highly appreciate any artist who speaks transparent about how much work needs to be done to promote your art. Those cozy Vlogs often don't show the reality. Fairylike artists dance through their studios (I love to watch this myself, it sells a dream of being a free spirit), artists painting in lovely dresses without staining them... all sort of entertaining stuff. It is lovely made and nice to watch - but it does not show the reality. I am very concerned what happens to the art-community these days. Ranting on other artists, telling watchers not to trust other art-youtubers, even mocking on someone being nervous in front of the camera :( ... Seems like competition causes them to attack one another. A very sad trend in my opinion.
Morg is right that the majority of “art content” has the art as accidental B-roll. They are about community drama, or trending topics, or well worn debates. The art here is just screen filler. I’ve done these myself. Art business/guru channels are the worst cases because they do same whilst also talking about how art can be really successful as a career if you do what they did - make videos where the art doesn’t really matter. I do appreciate your point about driving people to your art store or such. People watch these kinds of videos the most so.. it makes sense to make them. Is this bad? I think it’s a shame that purely art focussed videos don’t do very well anymore compared with spicy talking points and “business gurus”.
tbh I think the reality that a lot of people don't want to face is that being a full time artist is not sustainable for a lot of people. The reason why a lot of artists have to survive off of youtube or sponsorships is because simply selling art doesn't pay the bills. I went to a fine arts school too and everyone who graduated with me does not have work in the gallery art space but instead became teachers or graphic designers. It just isn't viable for most people to sell art independently without multiple sources of income. UA-camrs are selling a dream that just doesn't work. I honestly regret wasting time in fine arts and am now working on getting into video game art which is an infinitely more viable career even despite the horrible layoffs. A lot of artists are just too afraid to face reality.
upon checking out kelsey's stuff, she's obviously focusing on the business aspect of things. i don't really see the issue in that. deadass why should i care what this woman is doing, it doesn't seem harmful, or like a scam...?
and she does post art on instagram at the very least. comparing this to mlms is a bit much. with mlms you can very clearly see and track that they ARE harmful
Yeah, but her business isnt "the art" but the "art business" which she doesnt have. Not an mlm for any stretch, but shes not verses in art business, she is versed in content creator business
Agreed!!! I don't see why someone would take issue with Kelsey! She's very transparent and everyone can see that she doesn't make her income with 'art' and she even mentions it often.
Uh.. I think the way most people understand this is.. that being an artist is not the same as being a full time artist. Being an “artist” means you make art. Being a “full time artist” means that your primary source of income with which you support yourself is your art. If your content focuses on your own art (like making polymer mushrooms).. then that is just another way you are selling your art and I think Full Time is the appropriate label here. If your content doesn’t focus on your own art.. then you’re not a “full time artist” …but you’re still an “artist”. You can be a full time nurse and still be an artist. You can be a full time content creator of any kind and still be an artist.. assuming your own art isn’t the focus of your content. Kelsey is still an artist but she makes money with her content that doesn’t hinge on her own art.
Yes and no, content creation can be a art but you can't say all content creation is. Nobody would say Logan Paul is an art creator. I also don't see Kelsey videos as art. They are just simply not. I don't have a problem with artists making yt videos, it can be done right. Tammy form Uncomfy is a great example. She is also selling dream as an artist, surely her earnings mostly come form yt but she is still selling art and doing it.
Honestly I get it because imagine if someone made a video like "how I make 5000$ through gaming" and it boils down to sponsorships UA-cam revenue etc. Like I'm glad you're making money but no you're not making money from your art or your gaming Someone who I would say makes money from her art and does content creation is lavendertowne (no matter your opinions on her) every video has and will be art centric (and it's not just critiquing other people's art or fixing/roasting it) and she also made a webcomic which she sold and promoted equally with her ocs
I think the problem a lot of people have (including me) is how misleading the videos are. Most content creators who talk more about their business than their art are making money off of people who want to start their own art career. They tell the viewer that by following their steps, the viewer can become successful (or even get a high amount of money) by selling their own art. Even though that’s not the case. If they follow the specific steps, all they end up being is a fulltime content creator with an art side hustle. And maybe they won’t sell art at all and only sell content and courses themselves. I think selling the idea of being a successful art seller through their courses, even though it won’t be helping you achieve that goal, is in fact a scam. And it doesn’t matter if the intent is a different one, it is still selling wrong ideas to people. People (especially young people) could lose a lot of money trying to launch a shop and making lots of products because they got encouraged by those creators
Thanks for making this video! I saw the original 'scam video' and you've managed to cover a lot of my thoughts. The idea of being a "starving artist" comes from the fact that being an artist IS a huge percent marketing and making sales... But it's generally ONLY people with connections that can sell their art. What hope is there if you're shy, unconnected, and just not a salesperson? Most of us would have never had even a tiny chance before social media came along. Kelseys videos have made me feel hopeful, not because I want to follow her business model exactly, but because she is thoughtful, and she is someone with a chronic illness like me who has been able to work hard, got lucky, and has made a career for herself by making her connections online and finding a way to make it work. Yes, I do think she is learning a lot as she goes along and simply voicing what she has learnt. Whether it's actionable for most people is another story but I think that's fine because she never claims it's easy, and she still provides some really valuable insights. Imo you also DON'T have to be making art 24/7 to be an artist. That results in burnout for most people and it's just not sustainable to create, create, create with no breaks in between, and I think the people online who do portray the idea that they are making new art every single day are either energetic, healthy, perfect people... or liars... because at least as chronic illness folk (which surprisingly many artists are) it's not sustainable to make art every day. Art should make us think. It is a space where we can express ourselves and invoke people to feel things. BUT there are times when the art of video and spoken word are just as effective or moreso, and that's okay. I think Kelsey considers her videos as a part of her art form and I'd agree, much like your video above, these conversations are an art of expression and provokers of thought, even if there is money being exchanged in the form of sponsorships and adsense, it doesn't necessarily make it inauthentic or scammy, it's just the world we live in.
I generally agree with your thoughts here and I thought this was an interesting and timely analysis! Something kinda similar that happens is when college professors make a big chunk of their income as teachers rather than in their field. Students who don't want to follow that career model often have to find role models elsewhere. There used to be a podcast that I listened to where independent artists interviewed an artist every week and so we had a wide variety of perspectives on how people make their living as artists (for the most part, self-employed, freelance--basically mostly artists who weren't full-time employees somewhere else). They would talk about how they'd typically spend their week, what kind of projects they work on, how they got consistent work (or gained an audience if they sell product). Unfortunately the podcast is gone now so I won't even say what it was called, but I kinda miss that, those genuine conversations between artists for the sake of other artists. There are content creators who are pretty transparent, and there are also content creators who lean into idealism. I for one, love it when creators remind me that my goals are possible by sharing their successes and a bit of insight into how they got there. Professional art making has soooooo mannnyyyy possible paths that you can take, but not all of them fulfill all your financial needs unless to take some specific steps (and even then there are a few options).
Thank you!! And exactly, art business looks soooo different for everyone. Despite its challenges, it has the benefit of being flexible depending on the goals of the artist. That podcast sounds great, it’s too bad they stopped. I’m glad to hear you like when artists share their success! I also like hearing about them reaching their goals and achieving their dreams and sharing some advice on how they got there
This was great, so well articulated. I'm on a similar journey, launching an art channel. It's so tricky because "artist" and "content creator" are two very different jobs, but if you want to make art and make money, then a great way to do that is be a content creator. I don't see it as "selling hope" if they're just giving away their playbook for a real viable career option that lots of people are capable of. Glad this popped into my feed, looking forward to seeing this channel's growth!
Business advice for artists should be able to apply to ANY business. That’s how you know it’s actually decent advice. There are some unique aspects to any kind of business but all in all business is business and it’s a necessary skill if you want to use your art to make a living.
As someone who sells at markets and art shows, I use social media (insta and TikTok) to boost, advertise and keep in touch with local collectors or potential collectors as well as network with other local artists. I think selling via social media is a completely different game. I do think that content creation in that sphere is very much about selling oneself or an idea. At the same time, click bait titles that overpromise success really annoy me - so I appreciate your commitment to transparency.
Really liked your disclaimer!! ❤ I wonder if this discussion is just the 21st century equivalent of great artists using apprentices historically. We often look at a work by a great master and are impressed by their skill, but we forget about apprentices supporting them - without that help, they would not have been half as successful. Maybe these people *are* fulltime artists but we do not want to recognise all te things it takes to be a fulltime *working* artist, rather than someone with immense privilege that affords them the time and resources to only do purely artistic creation.
I've noticed this across a wide range of my interests (gardening, art, sewing, knitting, etc). Beautiful and wonderful content, things I had always wanted to do and it was interesting to see how they did it. Except when you dig deeper it was coaching, retreats, classes, and other marketing that kept it all afloat. They have a social media assistant that keeps up with editing and posting content. Yes, some ppl have the know how and time to do it all but for most it's a bit unrealistic. (And yes, I love listening to artists in the background when I am doing things. Embroidery is my current favorite :) )
yes true Kelsey's videos is more practical lesson. I do remember she says,"You Need an Audience". Thats the time I stopped focus on business numbers, I start to grow number of audience instead.
I watch Kelsey, she seems pretty legit, and love her content. Everyone has their own Journey in how they do their own business. I'd love to be a full time artist.. but Maybe in due time. Glad you made this video. God bless
Extremely important topic for us to discuss honestly. And I understand where the frustration comes from. I too have felt many times that the way in which creatives, especially visual artists, have turned into gurus and profit off of their own community is borderline predatory. People like Kelsey are probably seen as too young and too confident to give advice, especially since she started being noticed by other art gurus with actual decades of experience. But this is the environment that we're dealing with. Social media is an interest-led mechanism and tutorials with titles in the form of the most asked questions will always perform better than an original piece of art. This is why most advice for anyone trying to get noticed is to turn into a teacher, a skill not many have, sharing advice that most of the times is very superficial. What is important for artists to understand is that no one cares about your art as much as you do, HOWEVER, no matter how great your art is, you most likely suck at selling it, and I include myself in that group, because we didn't learn the absolutely NECESSARY skills of marketing and business management, at least at the basic level. Where we must break away from the trend is to learn how to appreciate, value and celebrate what we make and go find our audience. Which is NOT OTHER ARTISTS. If the only artists we see succeeding online are the ones that use it as a means to an end, a thing that they apply their marketing and business knowledge to, then of course we'll feel betrayed and taken advantage of. Your clients are not young creatives that are lost and looking for advice, those are your peers. In branding and brand messaging, one of the elementary concepts to learn is that you're not advertising the product, but a feeling, a mood, a way of life. If we blindly follow art gurus and teachers, we're left with becoming more content creators than artists, selling yap soup to other artists, in a never-ending cycle of community cannibalization. My advice is to pick up what resonates with you from these people, bend it to your needs and skills into a shape that you can stomach to apply, and move on with gratitude and purpose. Oh, and what doesn't work for you is best left behind. Remember, recipes come AFTER a thing was done, often ignoring a lot of context.
A well thought out and explained video, Ruby. Thanks for that. Here are some thoughts... I've been a full-time artist for more than 20 years. Half of my business has been as a self-syndicated editorial cartoonist. The other half is my whimsical wildlife paintings. I have always considered it a business and the nature of my income changes from year to year. As technology, advertising and self-promotion evolves and changes, the artist must adapt, too. Business skills are an absolute necessity. Bookkeeping is one of my most valuable skills. I once had an artist friend who often joked that she was still waiting for her benefactor, meaning a rich patron who would show up and pay her to create art all day, just so they could be near a creative person and enjoy their art. That's rarer than a winning lottery ticket. Is that what people mistakenly believe defines a full-time artist? Every self-employed creative I know works almost every day, longer hours than they would if they worked for somebody else. There's no vacation pay, unemployment insurance, health benefits, or boss to keep you on track or disciplined. Everything is on you. And even though you get better at the business part of it, it's never easy. No self-employment is easy. Half of my business is dying a slow death because newspapers are dying. Those were good reliable clients every day for more than twenty years. Facebook, Instagram and Twitter used to provide free advertising and a relatively easy way to reach a lot of people. That's over now. I get most of my engagement with my buyers and followers from my website and email list now. Galleries are not the be all and end all, in fact most of them are big pains in the ass. You're only as good as the money you make them, because they are a business, too. They have no time to waste on artists whose work doesn't sell, and they expect you to promote yourself more than they do. That's work, and as soon as you're yesterday's news...see ya. Things will change and a lifelong art career means adapting and evolving. When something no longer works, you adjust course. Find a new way to reach your audience, those people who love your work. I found your video because I'm about to invest more of my time and energy into UA-cam videos. I've been slack on that and it would be foolish to continue to ignore the potential audience that can be reached on this platform. It will be a lot of hard work and it may or may not be worth my time. But there are never any guarantees. I have watched several of Kelsey's videos and I think she's doing great, because she's found a way to earn a living, either directly from her art or from talking about art and sharing what she knows. I've learned a few things from her and she's young enough to be my daughter. Rather than look at UA-cam as something to criticize, celebrate that we live in a golden age where EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW is free for the asking. You just have to dig through a lot of stuff that's just noise. There will always be critics, most of whom are trying to poke holes in somebody else's success, however marginal, so they can justify not having to try themselves. Bringing somebody else down makes some people feel better about their own shortcomings. That's as old as human beings. We tear people down to feel better about ourselves. Art markets involve a lot of work, from preparation of products, to advertising, to sales and marketing. You know how you get a lot of your customers at markets? You advertise to them ahead of time, let them know you'll be there. It takes time and effort. I have commercial licensing clients, companies who 'rent' my work in exchange for royalty payments. Working with them takes time and energy, too. Writing posts, creating content, and researching new means of making a living, all of that takes time. And you will try a LOT of stuff that won't work, but the only way to know is to try it and see. That takes time. I could write for another hour about all of the work involved, but this comment is already way too long. Sorry about that. I AM a full-time artist, and I spend more time on the business of art than I do creating art. That's what I signed up for. And anybody who wants to create art for a living, that's what you're signing up for, too. And I mean this with all sincerity to anyone who has made it this far. Good luck. I want all of you to try and succeed. Because it's a lot better than working for somebody else.
great video! I don't think people realise that the word artist and content creator are slowly becoming the same thing. If you don't create content unfortunately no one will see your art. Most likely an artist that creates lower quality art but has the ability to share their art or life in what ever way they wish, is going to find more success. I personally hate it but that's the reality of art today. Hating on an artist for how they make a living, so they can enjoy art is messed up. Producing videos that are monetised, calling people out. Is more messed up. Being An artist today is difficult, In Australia Like 9% of the population work full time as an artist. shits cooked. we should all be trying to create stronger community's. not ripping them apart
I watched Kelsey's videos for years and saw firsthand how she started as an art channel and slowly moved towards the entrepereur/business side without really producing much art in general. I unsubbed when this entrepreneur/business model took over completely and she posted a new channel where she said she would be uploading art process, art vlogs, etc but that channel stayed empty for at least a year while she kept posting that other kind of videos on her main channel. The thing I also saw in her videos is that after you watch one video or two of the business/coaching type, you kindof watched them all because, just like you're claiming that there's not much to say about art because art is intrinsically personal and everyone is doing something different; in business, the goal is one and therefore the things you need to do are pretty straight forward and works for any kind of business, not just art. A part-time job in a small retailer or a family owned business will teach you that pretty quickly if you pay attention. What really bothered me is the empty second channel, that after a year started uploading more of the coaching videos she already posted in the first channel. With each new video, I felt I was watching a huge ad full of buzz-words for her own paid coaching business and affiliate link programs with other teaching entities. That's why a lot of people seem to be mad and felt scammed possibly, I can't imagine how the ones that were paying for her services felt or are feeling now. To me it seemed more a matter of time for someone to feel enough of something to bring this part of Art UA-cam into question. We choose where to put our attention. Just as we as artists need to find our audience, we are her target audience. She chose to keep repeating herself though and without having conversations about anything other than money-making--I say this because you showed other art UA-camrs as example and they definitely talk about other things-- I chose to just not watch anymore.
I don't see a problem with these videos, i think they can be extremely helpful. Anyone who wants a business of any kind needs advertising and marketing to be successful and whether you show yourself doing that or like in the case of a gallery artist someone else does it for you, its a necessary part of the job. To pretend that you can just make art without showing all the behind the scenes work that goes into it is far more deceptive than explaining all aspects including those purely business related which the reality is that it's absolutely necessary to do as well as the art. Sounds to me like this morgue person is quite biased and somewhat delusional if they think you can just make art without all the marketing and advertising and still expect to be successful. They are denying the reality of all business be it art or not and are just sour it takes more than they thought to be successful. I personally appreciate Kelsey's types of videos as they don't whitewash the true amount of non related art work that needs to be done and are a valuable source of knowledge. When you're self employed you have to do these things no matter your product, its just the reality of selling in todays social media focused society. Morgue needs a harsh reality check if they think any different and is a bit of a hypocrite when they're focused on just drama, after all they're making an income off starting contraversy where none existed before just for views, which to be honest is a more manipulative and despicable way to make money, shame on them..
Honestly I think that a lot of this comes from people not actually understanding what working means. A bunch of starry eyed idealists who dream of just doing what they love and not realising that the world almost never works that way. Ultimately, most of the time? You have two choices. You either work for a living wage doing something else and do what you love after hours, or you spend the living wage work equivalent doing stuff to try to turn what you love into a living wage source. I'd argue that the latter still gives you more time to work on things that are actually your own, because even if most of the time you're spending is spent on content creation, it's still often content creation that can be done at least to *some* point by doing what you want anyway. Recording videos of drawing while talking, etc. I think it still absolutely counts as being a full-time artist if the content you create is about your art creation. The moment it becomes mostly business advice... yeah, the labelling may get more muddy there. But unless the videos are promoting actually harmful or blatantly ineffective practices (or, you know, saying that you can become an artist by generating everything...), I find it pointlessly vitriolic, and - worse yet - misleading, to call it a scam. Soon enough the word is going to lose all meaning and when that happens... good luck dealing with actual scams, which are plenty out there.
This is an interesting conversation, I am a full time artist and zine maker, but of course you have to do ALL the other things that go with running a business, and having multiple streams of income is needed as an artist because we need to live. That’s why Patreon is so popular.I think it’s ok to say it’s full time because let’s face it we work for many many hours, way over full time hours.
My issue with a lot of these “ gurus” is their solution to any of the ills that plague the industry is wether it’s AI art, globalization or a shrinking direct market is “ just become an influencer “ and they think anyone can don it bc they have done so. As a UA-camr myself who paints at I think a pretty high level - it’s not as easy as it sounds. The exception doesn’t prove the rule
Personally I watch art UA-camrs for their personality and passions. I feel like that's the case for many people, and so the type of video you make isn't incredibly important. Also limiting to one type of video can just lead to you as a creator feeling suffocated/burnout. I'm excited to see what content you make that's uniquely you especially after hearing how well thought out this one was.
This was such a great video!! My pet peeve is when people say "UA-cam doesn't pay much in ads. It's only a TINY portion of my income, like $3k/month" (or something similar). It drives me nuts! If I made that much from UA-cam I would never have to worry about bills again!! Re: Kelsey, I think she's great, I like her videos and I think she's such a talented artist!
Exactly! I stopped watching such videos coz they just bothered me. All big creators going on about how horrible UA-cam adsense is because they only get peanuts (5k). Like, give me that 5k a month if you hate it so much 🙄
I’m open to the importance of wearing several hats as a full time artist. And I know I don’t want to be a content creator. I’ve tried that and enjoyed it for a bit; people loved my teaching skills but I only made art to fit in what the audience was interested in, not the art I wanted to make. I’d love to find out more ways we can use social media as marketing tools without content creation. Let’s face it: content creation is a full time job for Pete’s sake!, it’s not just one hat among many. And I hate it when people/ you just dismiss artists who don’t want that as not willing to put in the effort. I am an artist. I make art. And I want to learn how to market it without my art taking a huge hit.
I kinda get what you mean, but I think the problem is that it's an ouroboros type situation, a kindof paradox. How do I make money as an artist? -> I make videos and courses that I monetize about how I make money as an artist, and you can too! Rinse, and repeat. Actual practical advice about how to make money from you art (which is the misleading implication) feels absent. and it's a shame, because there are so many different avenues in order to do that, and facets of each that would be genuinely interesting to see explored in more depth and with more specificity. For example, "here's a list of manufacturers and how I would rate them in terms of quality and price for making different products like prints, keychains, art books, etc." or "tips on how to organize an artists alley/craft festival table display" or "tools for building a website to host your shop/portfolio, and the pros and cons of different ways of doing that." those types of videos are much less common, but they feel like they actually give you any worthwhile information. I feel like kelsey's videos in particular felt too similar too eachother like they were variations on the same talking points, and like at the end of them I went away without having actually gained any meaningful insight, but maybe that's just me. It feels predatory. Still, it's unfair of people to shit on kelsey's appearance or mannerisms. That's just bullying.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, especially the specific examples of what advice you would find helpful! You’re valid for how you feel about this kind of content, and you’re definitely not the only one, since many people agree with you in the comments of both Morgue and my video. I think two things can be true at once, some people find Kelsey’s content helpful and some don’t. At the end of the day, I wanted to learn whatever lessons I could from this situation, so your feedback helps a lot. I will also add, I feel like unfortunately the kind of advice you mentioned wanting to see don’t perform as well as the ones mentioned in this video… Flashy numbers and clickbait are just more effective at getting views, so there’s more incentive to make them. But I have hope that this is something we can change, since there is now demand for honesty and authenticity. Kind of like “voting with your dollar” but with views, the more we seek out and support artists who align with what we want to see, the more they can create those videos. Thanks for sharing your insight!
this is feels, fr. we need people who are willing to do art business. i do art youtube but i need to make content to bring people to my stuff, even then there is no guarantee that anyone will buy stuff until you meet a threshold. I have been grinding for a while and only realized now that i made myself 'art news' instead of 'art artist', and i'm concerned if anyone will ever buy my works or my small comic i made. i value art business, but i'd also value if someone told you what to do once you have that audience. :\
@@friendlyneighborhoodartist I understand what you mean completely. and I actually watched one of your videos about League of Legends art in the past, I’m honoured you watched my video!! ❤️ If it’s any comfort, I’ve had quite a few people ask about my art shop and purchasing my work, so I definitely think it’s possible to find people who want your art through content creation. It’s just a matter of balancing the entertainment/advice content with your own work, or even combining the two somehow. I also think building a community is a key factor, connecting with your audience is very important. Having a dedicated audience who want to support you is much more important than a large number of views imo, because those are the viewers who will want to support you and see more from you instead of just popping in for one video. This is definitely something I want to expand on in the future, thank you for sharing your experience!
Yes, I agree with your point. There is no right or wrong. UA-cam is a platform for a content creator to create tutoring and entertainment. Eventually, get a sponsorship to be able to have a stable income for future content. No one can live without money. Kudos.
I completely agreed with morgue that quality art alone is not enough to make a channel popular or get it attention but I also felt like at times they were being bitter and projecting the idea that they only liked making art videos onto other artists by acting like other artists only make shop restocking videos or challenge and art tips etc videos for marketing and not because they might like making those too. Their commentary on the "artists" who only make videos on "how to make a bazillion dollars as an artist" while seemingly never actually making or selling art were super valid.
A lot of good points. I feel the same way, I felt like Morgue had some good critiques but also didn’t consider the fact that some artists may enjoy the craft of making videos and building a community. Marketing is a benefit for sure, but sharing yourself through videos can be its own motivation too!
You have provided a plethora of experience and info. I am an old gal and have watched the art world evolve and appreciate your perspective. Great video. Thank you!
Such a good discussion. Art and art adjacent work has become more time trying to sell the pieces than creating them… unless one has a specific client or patron… or manager doing all of the negotiating and marketing for you. I studied architecture and most architects either work in firms where the different responsibilities are divied up, or if they have a single person office, spend an inordinate amount of time filling out permits, finding new clients and drawing the technical plans compared to designing (the art part). Being self employed in the art world will always require knowledge of business practices, careful time management, and local tax laws. Social media skills are important for every artist (although with AI theft it’s getting tricky). There are as you mentioned so many avenues to art as a career. Wishing everyone luck and all the good things.
I loved listening to your thoughts on this & seeing you make your beautiful artwork! As a fellow Filipino creative trying to grow & share the things I like to make, I’m wishing you luck & looking forward to watching more of your videos :)
It’s fascinating to me when people claim it’s "misleading" to discuss the business side of art. Most artists are still working full-time jobs, unemployed, or struggling to earn income from their passion. Many of us went to college thinking that a degree would lead to a paid career as an artist, but that hasn’t been the reality. College sold us that dream, not Kelsey or anyone else. In fact, most of us here have paid to pursue our art education, and yet we’re still not "successful" in the sense of making a living from our art. Why? Because it’s not enough anymore for art to "sell itself"-we have to learn the business side of things. We’re not in the age of the old masters, who networked and promoted themselves to be recognized by kings and queens across countries. Even back then, artists were involved in self-promotion to be noticed. Selling may not feel natural to some of us, but sharing what we love and recommending it isn’t much different from selling. Putting your art in a gallery doesn’t make it any less of a business; it’s still being sold to someone. The problem is, many of us can’t produce work fast enough to keep up, and even if we do, it’s hard to stand out. Without setting ourselves apart and making people know who we are, it’s unlikely our work will get noticed among the crowd. If you’re uncomfortable with the business side, maybe social media isn’t the right platform for you, but it’s still promotion, whether you do it yourself or hire someone else. Embracing the logistics of selling your art is part of making a career as an artist in today’s world.
This is a really good overview of what these artists do. Nicely done! I unsubbed from Kelsey's youtube awhile back, because as a 50-something "older GenX" woman just returning to my love of full time artist after 30 years of a public education and mental health career, I felt I was not her target audience. In fact, she said several times that her target audience is "other young artists trying to make a living from their art." Sometimes, because I am older Gen-Z, I do get annoyed by mannerisms, or feeling that I'm being put in an "old person not worthy of my own full time art career" sort of box. However, I got over myself and realizes that Kelsey and others like her are actually HELPING me with my own art career, even though I might not be their "target" audience. I want to learn the business side of things. I want to grow my channel and many of her tips are extremely helpful in doing that. Finally, these are not "Pyramid schemes" or MLM marketing schemes. The Morgue person who said that obviously has no understanding at ALL about what those schemes are (check out LulaRoe and its rise and fall if you want to find out what a real MLM scheme is). Does Kelsey sell courses? Sure! Does she say, "you must purchase my course in order to find out how to make a full time living"? No - she offers free information on youtube, and sells courses for folks who want to go more in-depth or keep all of her information in one place, in order, so they don't have to search through all of her videos to find the info.
I'm in my 40s and find it really hard also to navigate an art career. Listening to the younger generations, i feel too old to get my art out there, because I'm not into the millenial way of doing it on social media. I also feel like since I was never there in my 20s, I'm too old now to get anywhere. Are there older artists on YT that anyone can recommend to follow for inspiration & advice?
@@annespringer5720 school of visual storytelling is a good UA-cam channel to check out. It’s a discussion & advice channel, of three older guys, with years of experience in the industry.
@@annespringer5720 School of visual storytelling is a good UA-cam channel. It is a discussion & advice channel by three older gentleman, with years of experience in the industry.
In general all of these 'full time' artists are creating content around things/experiences that are a result of them creating art. All of them likely started out thinking some day they'd like to sit around all day creating art that 'just sells'. That's not how art business works. Even top tier artists, who sell art for millions of dollars, do marketing (or hire someone to do marketing for them). I personally don't define myself as anything more than an 'artist'. I don't make a living from my art, but I do make a nice side income from a lot of art-adjacent interests like teaching an animation software I use, selling prints, affiliate links to software I use in my animation work etc. All of these things allow me to be at home as much as I want creating art whenever I want... and most importantly creating the art I want to make - rather than what I think will sell. Don't over think it... and maybe don't give too much weight to people who aren't actually modelling the kind of successful art career you're looking to achieve.
It is a very nice thing to see that some people can still actually think things through rather than make hasty judgements based on a millisecond instinct to hate someone because that said someone didn't deliver exactly what they were expecting based on some words they read on the thumbnail. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Also, lovely key chains :)
Kelsey Rodriguez was the first person I thought of when I started listening to this video. Only because I started clicking on her videos and I had to go way way way back to find anything that was actually “art” related. Like a tutorial, or a sketchbook tour or something showcasing her actual art. All this did was get me to be disinterested and a little annoyed at the fact that she had clearly been monetized from all of the attention she was getting. And yes, I have noticed this with other art channels. While it may be helpful every now, and then to hear about a person‘s successful journey, financially related to art, even as a content creator Myself, I’m still looking for a good old technique or tutorial that gets down to business and shows me what I came to see, the art. I’m not adverse to the idea of being successful here on UA-cam obviously but it does have a MLM feel to it with a modern twist. Not necessarily recruiting, but heavy influencing. In my opinion, this is just causing over saturation of the niche. Interesting topic though.
13:50 I’ll put my two cents and add that many artists do say how much time content creations takes up when in reality they wish they could be using that time to make art/sell art but as mentioned that’s very hard without an audience
Oh, and- im sorry to double comment but I thought you should know-- I was working on inking a client comic while watching this video. Congratulations, your channel is already doing what it has set out to do. Keep it up-- I love watching artists work on the art aspect of the business (as someone who practices art the same way). Some video types I enjoy are time lapses, as well as 'tour' type videos that go into sort of the BTS of your thought process and how you develop a concept; picking other artist brains is what motivates me to make more art the most I think-- because making art is a gift, to me a miracle of life, and I love to witness it. Cheers!~
This is so amazing to hear, thank you so much!! I’ll keep that in mind, thank you for sharing what kind of videos you like! I will strive to keep being your background entertainment ❤️
I don't think professional artists have a choice in whether or not they have to scam viewers or not. If you're a content creator and you did A/B testing on your thumbnail, and one thumbnail says "I made $10,000 from my art", and another says "I made $10,000 from my art business", one is going to get a ton of views and the other isn't. You don't have the time and energy to sit every subscriber down and explain to them why their dreams of just only making art is unrealistic. You just change the thumbnail so that your video doesn't get buried by the algorithm.
One thing is to be a content creator, all good and well. Another is to be an artist on social media. There are many artists who are both, content creator AND sell their art. What kelsey does is sell the idea of a succesful art business, which she does not have. She has a successful content creatir business. But she still sells courses on being an art business, which is not what she is. She doesnt even sell her art. If thats not a scam maybe it is a deceiving marketing of her products.
Content creation is an art that blends: Videography, writing, editing, audio, graphic design, and a little bit of acting. It boggles my mind that people forget the video themselves are art.
@@JokullFrosti she did nothing wrong and don't deserve hate. but i can see why this happen. i think its cause kelsey don't get as much respect as artist than businesswoman. lot of people ask 'wait she has art shop?' 'wait she's an artist?' and other things. despite her talking about how artschool is a scam. she REALLY sound like artschool prof. theres really no logical esplanation on her hate really. lot of artist just don't like kelsey type of person. the cancelling and spreading hate are wrong but disliking someone is totally normal
@@JokullFrosti this is my experience on art university. if the prof are not a better artist than a teacher. the student won't respect you. they will talk shit behind the prof back. same shit apply to kelsey.
I’m so glad to see a response to that video. To me it came off more as envious than anything really reputable. He just seemed unnecessarily angry about their approach to making money. (A ‘don’t hate the player hate the game’ scenario in my opinion.) Kelsey even says in her videos that she considers ‘the data of monetization’ as one of her niches as it’s a top interest along with her art. He never mentions that, he ignored that premise and her transparency so I felt like his argument had no foundation. I discovered Kelsey as I was researching what I wanted to do with my own channel and found her really helpful, I too have a masters degree in design but that doesn’t mean I’ve ever navigated the realm of promoting my art to make it into a more viable business, so I enjoyed her content around that along with her discussing some of the hurdles she’s faced, it made me set more realistic goals and expectations and informed me of future potential struggles.
In my original script I also compared the situation to “don’t hate the player hate the game”!! Thank you for bringing that up, it’s a good point. And I feel the same way with my degree, even though I have the credentials, I didn’t have any knowledge on marketing or business! I also found value in Kelsey’s content because of that. Thank you for sharing and I hope things go well in your artistic endeavours! ❤️
I'm very much in the middle on this as I can see points to either side of argumentation. (Although it's not fair to call Kelsey a scam or a pyramid scheme, I think that was too harsh. On the other hand I also felt like Kelsey's response might have been a bit unproportionate considering Morgue is such a small creator). I want to raise a few points I haven't yet seen mentioned in any of the comment sections: For me personally there's a bit of a disconnect with how Kelsey talks about business which I feel is based on a cultural divide. The kind of rags to riches idea that everyone can make it no matter their background or means is very American to me. That's a mentality I find a bit hard to relate to as a European, especially as someone who is working as a full time artist and is very aware of the fact I mostly am able to have this life because I come from a very privileged background. It's not a negative thing to believe in the American dream, especially as an American, but it pushes a very romanticized narrative that might not be true for everyone watching and that can be problematic for more impressionable younger folks. Morgue felt to me like a person who has become quite disillusioned with that idea or the fact that being a full time artist sometimes also means being a fulltime business and marketing person as well. And I can relate to the frustration. My other point is that the Art youtuber / art content creator niche is a very specific niche of the art industry. Kelsey's advice works super well for artists that utilize social media to make sales. It's absolutely a very valid career choice and just because someone diversifies their income through social media doesn't mean they're not an artist. However that's only a small part of the art industry and there are many many other careers that simply function differently and don't rely on you making sales and getting engagement. I work in the entertainment industry and at the beginning of my career I was very confused on how exactly to break into the industry and earn money. Videos like Kelsey's, while extremely helpful for a certain niche, confused me a lot and made me worry about aspects of my career that in reality weren't even important in my line of work. I spent years trying to figure out algorithms and business strategies before I realized I don't even need social media in my particular field of work :') A lot of time wasted that I could've used to hone my skills in other areas. Now that's obviously on me for being misinformed but I think these type of business guru videos can sometimes do more harm than good. That said Kelsey is obviously free to create and post any type of content she likes and people should just decide for themselves if the advice she gives applies to them or not, you can't fault her for catering to a specific niche. That in itself is also a smart business move from her. All that to say that I personally really like Kelsey, even though a lot of her advice doesn't apply to me. She seems to be a sweet and genuine person who's able to reflect on herself and her role on this platform. I was sad that she felt the need to justify why she calls herself an artist, no one should have to do that! So I hope this whole discussion didn't put her down too much. Same goes for Morgue, I just wish both of them the best in figuring out where they're going.
There are clearly a lot of things to think about with this subject and i think you added a LOT of good perspective. Great video, keep up the good work!
I think on an interview Kelsey talked about how she wants to help artists grow with their finances. While there are a lot of scammers on youtube, I highly disagree that Kelsey is one of them as she is very transparent about the business models. Again, just because you spend a lot of time doing marketing doesn’t mean that you're not an artist/giving false statements. This is just part of the influencer-artist lifestyle.
Me, as an artist, think you make a great point and several comment here gather some useful benefits too. Whatever any type of art related is a dream. As long as i dont have yo calculated 😂 (which if that's turn to business it will be ,but let me enjoy the phase of creating content. And speaking of content, lol. It's 2024, online shop and market strategies are needed for almost everytype of business.) Thank you for this vid, you earn new sub from meh! ❤
to be honest, i'm always wary about anyone trying to tell me/sell me on how to make money by following their advice. why would they willingly share the way they make their own money, and therefore inflating the niche of creators they belong in? but i can see how that closes my mind to listening to genuine advice because i think it's them being greedy. a fine line for sure
@@Foxi-id6cn Thank you so much, I really appreciate your comment! I’m glad to hear it was entertaining, I’ll keep putting the main points on screen! I appreciate you sharing that you’re also a disabled artist! I’m not sure how much detail I plan on sharing in the future, but I will always mention my chronic illness because it’s a big part of who I am and I love meeting other artists like you who share my experiences ❤️
I just came across your channel and I absolutely love/100% agree with everything that you said in this video. I also truly appreciate your authenticity. I agree that it’s important as an artist, to treat this as a business. Just like we need to know how to budget our income and expenses in our everyday lives, we also need to be intelligent about how we do it when it comes to pursuing our passions. I did the opposite route as you. I got my BBA several years ago and *now* I’m learning how to draw and watercolour, something that I’ve wanted to learn since I was *much* younger. On a separate note, where you mentioned your chronic condition, it might be a good idea to apply for the Disability Tax Credit as it reduces the amount of income tax that you need to pay. Being approved for that also qualifies you for the RDSP. There’s not a ton of information online about it, but either on cbc or cra’s websites, I saw information that beginning nect year, people who qualify for the dtc will also receive a $200/monthly payment, as those that experience chronic conditions and disabilities suffer more economic hardship than able bodied Canadians. Keep up the great work Ruby!
I appreciate this video so much! You have made a lot of very well thought out points here. I have come away from this whole thing feeling like the mob of Kelsey bashers are offended that she doesn't fit their romanticized idea of what it's like to be a working artist. I've been a subscriber of hers for quite a while. While I'm not a fangirl or anything, I have appreciated her honesty around the reality of trying to reconcile being an artist with the reality of trying to be an adult that is able to make a living. When Kelsey puts out content that I am not interested in or doesn't apply to me, I JUST DON'T WATCH IT. I move on to some other video that provides value or interest to me. I made the decision to remain a software engineer because being a full time artist isn't a viable option for me at this point in my life. But I value artists like you and others who continue to provide entertainment, inspiration and just bring a bit more beauty to the world. I've been disappointed in the fact that many of the people who have been mocking and overly critical just come off as "Mean Girls". Maybe I'm just old or something, but the whole thing just felt like a bunch of immature bullies ganging up on someone they don't understand. But the key word in how the critics have come off to me is "immature". In any case, you got yourself a new subscriber. I wish you well in navigating your art career. I look forward to seeing what you post in the future!
Thank you so much! “Romanticizing” has been brought up a lot in these comments, I’d like to dig in more on that in the future! It’s definitely a good word to describe what’s happening with art business content. Keeping art and careers separate is something many artists choose to do, and there’s a lot of power in that path! Thank you so much for this thoughtful comment and your support ❤️
this was such an interesting conversation! i think the critiques are super valid- i didn’t watch the original video and don’t think i will but your comments are super on point. but i do think openess is exactly what makes the online art community special, the sharing of resources and tips so i understand the frustration behind the amount of $$ being made from content creation and that not being disclosed. i struggle with this dichotomy as well, content vs art. and it has definitely evolved over the years! in my first 2-3 years i did make most of my money from my art and relied very little on content revenue. but in the last year or so, because of big life changes and inflation in the us being so incredibly unbearable i have had to rely on sponsorships to fund making new products. youtube has also always been my #1 form of marketing in the sense of reaching new people who might like my stickers or work. i never considered the aspects that could be misleading as i try to be very genuine with what my job entails, and i am taking so much from this video with me moving forward! at this point in my career, i am trying to focus more on making content about my art and my school work, because to be quite honest the business side of things for me is exhausting and NOT a one size fits all. i think kelsey’s videos are a great free resource, but like any free resource, its important to consume it critically and diversify your sources :D
@@palomathepeach I completely agree, I think sharing resources and wanting to see each other thrive makes the art community so special and amazing! And it makes so much sense that the amount of art, content, and videos we make will change over time to adapt to our life and our needs. I think UA-cam is such a useful place to dedicate our time as creators, because it both markets our art AND creates more streams of income like ad sense and sponsors! It allows us to keep creating art and put food on the table. And I fully agree, free resources are great, but it’s up to us to consume it responsibly and not expect it to fill ALL the gaps in our knowledge. Thank you so much for sharing your experience as a bigger creator in this space, I love your work and I’m so grateful for hearing your perspective!
This was so well said and exactly my thoughts on the topic. You have so much potential for UA-cam, this was so well structured! Hello from a fellow Canadian ❤
Is okay to be a content creator, but be honest. If most of your income don't come from art, you're not a full time artist. If anything, art is your side-hustle, if not just a hobby that makes a profit. Also, point to mention, Kelsey hast posted any new art in a while, in any socials or store. -- Compare with Inkwell, who also makes this income breakdown, and you see He is actually making art, he is actually making the breakdown from his artsales at artist alleys and conventions, he is posting new art on his store and making projects... and the main difference? Kayley sell courses and inkwll doesn't. And yes, he's also a content creator. But when your income comes primarly from art, then yes, he would make more claim to be called a full timeartist than her. -- So when she try to pitch people this live from your artwork lifestyle, buy my course to see how... yes, if you don't wanna claim scam, okay but at least recognize is fishy.
If you make art and have a channel based on art.. you are a full time artist. I teach my video production and graphic design students that 90% of your job isn’t doing art, it’s doing everything else to make the art happen. At most 10% is the process and creating, the rest is running the business, marketing, networking, accounting, self care, hiring, freelancing, writing contracts etc. if you make money based on art you ARE AN ARTIST 😊 Second controversial take, content is the enemy of art. They can exist together but they serve two different masters. Almost Ying and Yang but content is pure evil and art is the exhalation of the evil.
This is a super interesting video :D !!! I loved your analysis of what makes an "art business" in the current state of social media tbh, it feels like there aren't really full time "artists" anymore, to own an art business is to be an artist of many trades, everything is an art tbh
These videos made me realize that to make a art business, content creation is our best friend. Even though we would rather just create art, but at the same time it does let us inspire people to do the same and create our little communities which is a positive thing. Wish me luck on starting youtube very soon! ;-;
I think you have some very good points to add to the conversation. Something I am wondering, is why content creation isn’t seen as an art form of itself. It can be very creative work with a clear vision and workflow. Your empty file is your clear canvas, where you can add clips, music, text and storyline. People who make UA-cam videos can have very distinct editing styles. Just some food for thought.
This whole thing comes across as valid fear and discontent at how the economy is rn and lashing out at whoever is in closest proximity, which I think is wrong. There’s a very familiar pattern of misogyny here, (a woman becoming the face of whatever thing people are mad about, getting the brunt of the attack, and much of the attack itself very revealing of the misogyny) and it’s so messed up. It’s 2024, for crying out loud, when will we learn? There’s an asinine tendency people have to gate keep what’s a ‘real artist’, and nit picking at who can call themselves a ‘full time artist’ is just another incarnation of it. It’s such a disingenuous critique because it requires such a lack of comprehension of that those words mean. Whether someone runs an art business, gets commissions, show and sell at galleries, is part of a studio, ALL of it requires labour other than ‘just making art.’ Say you’re a graphic designer working at a company. You’ll have to take meetings, communicate with client and colleagues, read and send emails, coordinating other people’s work and work flows, etc. None of that is ‘just making art.’ Okay, so what about being a gallery artist? Well, now you have to do a lot of networking and socializing, sell yourself, maybe even develop a sort of cult of personality. That’s not ‘just making art.’ Or it’s an artist who do own their own art business, but they’re lucky enough to be in a position to hire people to do the ‘non-art’ parts of the work. Well, they’re still a boss and need to manage people, pay their workers, and operate their business. Even if the last circumstance is when people are finally finally allowed the hallowed title of ‘full time artist,’ that’s terribly classist and stupid. It’s been long understood that a ‘full time artist’ is synonymous with ‘self employed artist.’ Why are we acting like this is suddenly a surprise? When people say ‘full time artist,’ they mean someone who own their own labour, or someone who works so much as an artist whether they work other jobs or not that we consider them a ‘full time artist’ as well. Like this video and many others, including Kelsey’s pointed out, A LOT of labour besides making the art itself goes into that. I can’t speak on other artists since I’ve never seen their videos, but Kelsey certainly never obscured that. The ‘justification’ of all this hate she’s been receiving is literally the fact that she’s been transparent about the different kinds of labour required to be a full time artist and her various revenue streams, but somehow she’s also lying to her viewers about it? If she only posted videos of idyllic ‘day in the life’ or studio videos, people would be constantly asking her for business advice anyway! *And* accusing her of lying about what being a full time artist is really like. If her advice seems generic, it’s because depending on the art a person is trying to sell, business plan, situation, advice beyond things like ‘have good tags’ can vary wildly! Not to mention filming and editing videos IS ALSO ART. Don’t tell me we have regressed back to the ‘Is photography art?’ debate. It IS art to make a nice video that people will want to watch, to have clear audio that people are comfortable listening to. Many artists throughout history have needed patrons to survive, intentionally done what they could to attract them, what’s the difference between that and sponsorships and brand deals? Kelsey has never positioned herself as a guru, and never pushed her classes as a complete necessity that will solve all your problems, but tailored mentoring and access to community structured by her. She’s not even trying to sell as many courses as possible. The highest tier of mentorship she provides only has a few slots every month, a number small enough that she can actually give you the attention she is promising. That is the opposite of a grift. Also saying the titles of her videos are click-baity isn’t much of a critique. EVERYONE on youtube and online in general uses click bait to some extent. The tone of her videos is never ‘do this one weird trick and it’ll solve all your problems!’ It’s always been, ‘here’s what’s worked for me, here’s what didn’t, here’s my thoughts, good luck.’ Her advice, like anyone’s advice, won’t guarantee an art business will thrive, just give people a better chance. The actual problem is that we’re in late stage capitalism. It’s fact that someone could do literally do everything ‘right’ and still not be able to sustain yourself on your art business alone. If we lived in a better world, this wouldn’t be the case. Our predicament is entirely man made, completely unnecessary, and thoroughly unjust. The real systemic change is hard, will take time, and doesn’t have a convenient ‘bad guy’ for us to take down. Even if there were, just taking down said bad guy wouldn’t immediately change our circumstances. Demonizing and yelling at Kelsey and other artists sharing what they know might give a temporary feeling of satisfaction or control, but it doesn’t solve anything. Real solutions means organizing, especially offline. Connect and work with your communities, unionize, vote in local elections, keep calling/writing/emailing your elected officials, including counsel/district/whatever-they’re-called-where-you-are members, protest - even protecting yourself by refusing to undersell your work means you’re also protecting other artists, because you’re not undercutting fellow artists. Think about it - say Kelsey and all other artists who make educational content about running an art business take down all their content and stop posting. What changes? For those of you still saying, “No no, we just need her to change the title of her videos/call herself something else, not leave entirely,” you’re not looking for honesty, you’re grasping at control.
Yo i felt like commenting because i really appreciate your way of presenting points and opening this discussion. I think its really about transparency, while everyone can have their own preference on what their helps the most at any given time, its really about being upfront on who is this for, its limitations, scope and reach when making any video. Granted, i feel its important to mention that, while personal responsibility is important, it is also a systematic problem of UA-cam (social media?) that everything is marketed for the widest reach possible to get the most clicks on a hypercompetitive space. Its kind of unfortunate but you also have to learn as a viewer to filter out what could be useful for you, which can be very frustrating because everything is presented as *the* thing you need. I've experienced this a lot with creators focused more on improving digital art skills (because its what im focusing on learning and trying to enjoy rn) , where (imo) there are multiple ways, styles and fundamentals you can learn that could vary in effectiveness/enjoyability/preference depending on the person, but instead every single creators markets the way they learned as THE way. I can also see it when some types of advice tend to get repeated excessively at the cost of alternatives that could accommodate other goals/artists/backgrounds.
That’s a really good point!! A few others have said something similar, that it’s a bit of “don’t hate the player, hate the game.” And that Morgue is angry at the people who are winning the game, instead of the game itself. It’s absolutely a systemic issue. Thank you for sharing your views! ❤️
Just letting you know I was listening to this video while doing dishes lol I really like your breakdown of this issue and how respectful you are. I was really disappointed to see the hate that Kelsey was getting as well.
I've been a professional digtal artist for almost 30 years . My clients don't care what i call myself, they care that my pictures look good. I make pictures, videos, and i teach. I also help people work together. I only really care about supporting my family, supporting my friends (many of which i also work with ) and .. that my next image is better than the last one . Its thats process of improvement that i call being an artist. Lastly , Most of my work involves collabration with others, and the best people to work with are compassionate and wise. No one wants to work with a d***. Morgue sounds like a d*** .
This video gave me a lot to think about and it’s interesting to hear the perspective of people just starting out in this field. I’ve been working in commercial art in various formats for almost 30 years. I started out in this industry where it was rare to have even a website to showcase your work. Times have definitely changed and social media is a fairly standard expectation and way to promote oneself, but it does eat up time. I was actually listening to this on my phone as I’m working on a mural at the moment, instead of filming footage of me working. When I first started out, it was simply getting the job done and having a printed portfolio to show to people that were interested. Now more than ever it’s about how invested people are and who you are, what you create, what you stand for, and even what you look like. The evolution of what it means to be a modern creative is absolutely wild in contrast over the last three decades. Personally, I’m not a fan of most how to earn this sort of money kind of videos because everyone’s path is ultimately different. I do appreciate the video you made, it was certainly thought-provoking and now makes me wanna make a video from an older artist perspective, because I can’t imagine how competitive and insane things will be in 30 more years.
I agree that putting a big number and saying they earn that is misleading and is what leaves so many of us frustrated after watching the video. Some of us just aren't cut out for content creation, god knows I tried to build an audience for over a decade.
Letting you know that I had your video on while creating art ❤ I think content creation via showing an art process is a niche of its own. Not only marketing your store but giving motivation and inspiration to other artists, so it's understandable that you could make money via stuff like sponsorships, its a diffrent audience than a buyer.
This is such a great discussion and I’ve learnt so much as someone who’s also learning and trying to become an art business eventually. I think your conclusions at the end are very good points and I’ll also not be calling myself an artist if one day I’m able to make any revenue out of content creation. And yes, putting out large numbers in video titles are also quite off putting because I think it can make quite a lot of people feel like failures if they’re not achieving those numbers… however, I also do like the honesty so I’m a little torn! I’d love to hear more of your insights on the art business industry as someone who’s learning how to grow on UA-cam!
This is very interesting, I'm in my third year freelancing/contract concept artist, I only worked for individuals and indie studios so far no AAA just yet, working towards it. However I plan to start my own UA-cam channel in January, however I will focus on teaching art and concept art plus videos about mental health and nutrition, specifically brain nutrition. As I was medically discharged from the army for PTSD, didn't receive any help from gov had to figure out how to deal with my trauma myself, so feel I am in a unique position to help others. I will say that when I first came out the army I studied sales and marketing, and do see a few marketing methods learnt in some art UA-camrs, some are somewhat unethical let's say. The plan for my channel is to teach people not just art fundamentals and design but also how to get into work as a concept artist, as it is a legit career, I don't plan to teach how to do youtube etc... You did a great job on this video, it was well balanced giving perspective of both sides.
Just dropped u a sub. All the best for the channel. I enjoy channels that have a strong personal voice and style like Gawx art. I feel like there’s enough teaching art channels but not so much on just sharing the journey they took on a piece while navigating life. I’m an illustrator from NZ and am trying to find time to put into a channel but haven’t settled on what I want to share yet. All the best for your channel dude 🤙🏾😁
I rly like kelsey's videos!! They helped me grapple with the fact that being a successful artist meant marketing yourself all the time. It's a hard pill to swallow but I think she's super transparent about it.
@@fiirebug i’m glad to hear your perspective!! I definitely found the one video I mentioned, ‘how to launch your art career’ super helpful and emphasized the reality of art business, the marketing and business side that a lot of people ignore. I understand some of the criticisms about her content, but I do think she has valuable things to say and I’ll always appreciate the information she provided that helped me get where I am today
Honestly I feel like most of this “scandal” was a whole lotta nothing. Maybe there’s a specific person here or there who actually does scam their customers, but most of this is just people getting too riled up over semantics.
To clarify; I consider it a scam when money is exchanged and a product or service is never delivered or the quality is poor. Ex: that one artist a few years ago (forgot his name) that set up his own private subscription service for exclusive content but then never delivered while taking people’s money that entire time. And when people asked he would throw tantrums on social media, block people, not allow refunds, and iirc even took money for commissions during that time too again without ever delivering. So to me THAT was a scam, but a couple somewhat misleading video titles isn’t.
I'm so glad you pointed out the mocking. When I watched that video I was hoping to get good insight from a new perspective, not "haha look at how she fixes her glasses and speaks funny!". As someone with a speech impediment, this is the exact kind of thing I get worried about when talking, and it makes you so self conscious. Would it really hurt to leave the mocking behind? We're not high school bullies anymore 💀
Speech impediments are charming as heck. Don't let people who make comments like that prevent you from trying things you want a do. You have a built in trait that's memorable and sticks out, lean into it babayy
@@Hello_Spaceboy Aww that's very sweet, thank you :)
Ikr I don't like Kelsey at all but she's mentioned in a video of her receiving extensive rude comments on her looks and mannerisms that it made her very self conscious :/
exactly!! we should never be making fun of people for things like this. being self conscious of the way I look and speak held me back from creating videos for a long time, I don’t want anyone feeling like that ❤️
yes yes yes!!! thissss ❤️🩹🌷🌷🌷
This is an actual business model in the guru sphere. You make money, not by living the life/philosophy/work you promote but by selling the methodology to live as such. Do as I sell, not as I do. Think "Rich Dad Poor Dad".
That’s really interesting, thank you for sharing! Reminds me of a thought I had about how I feel like people don’t think enough about the term “influencer.” They’re called that because they are literally influencing you to buy products by convincing you that you NEED what they’re selling. You need it to live like them, look like them, be happy like them. Convincing us that we have a problem and they have a solution
@@rubys_trinkets There's always money in selling aesthetics and ideas. As so many often are, if you're ever looking for a podcast to pick up, try "If Book's Could Kill". They cover a lot of this kind of stuff.
I don't understand isn't she doing exactly what she promoted? Like she did share how much she gets and income source
With this theory, that's your high-school and college teachers as well.
@@Axiasart More recently, she's talked about how she stopped making art altogether even while still making videos about how to make money while doing art.
My biggest problem I was getting from art youtubers doing more content than art was that if you tried to copy what they were doing, you don’t end up creating art anymore, you become a teacher. Now, that’s not a problem, but then your audience is mainly other artists, not the target audience who wants to buy your art. I’m getting away from those art business channels because watching them so much influences how I wanna do my content, which isn’t what I want. I’m interested in finding my target demographic. If there’s some crossover between people who want to buy my art and artists, cool. But mainly I want to find the crowd that really gets ME, what I do and feels like supporting me and my art. The person I really look up to for that is Frannerd. She’s built an audience of people who care about her, her life AND her art. That’s the dream right there!
You bring up very good points!! I’ve also thought about what it means to have an audience of mostly other artists, it’s true that it puts you in a more teacher/mentor role. It’s absolutely valid to NOT want to do that, it sounds like you have a strong idea of what you want and that’s awesome!! ❤
Yep big agree and mood. I kind of fell into that trap of "art teacher" as well and i want to move away from that and make videos that i enjoy making and viewers come back to for **me** rather than videos that are trending
teaching was always one of the traditional ways to earn living for artists, lol.
@@myrapaulus727 oh, definitely. And not knocking it. If someone sees what I’m doing in a video and learns a technique from it, cool. But it’s not the only way to make money as an artist. I feel people who are able to branch out from the art teacher role tend to have audiences from all walks of life who come together in supporting an artist because of the things that the artist believes in and promotes. That’s the kind of audience I’m really interested in fostering in my community :)
Same here! And I’m realizing I’m the future with my channel I want balance. It’s okay to show the business side, but it shouldn’t consume it. It was starting to make me feel guilty when I saw other artists making merch or selling a ton.
I think my only issue with Kelsey is her advice could apply to ANY business. Calling herself an artist is fine because she literally paints but at the end of the day, that feels more like a hobby while her content (her income) isn't 'art related' but entrepreneurial related. I think better advice could come from someone who has already done art business-specific things ( selling wholesale, selling on consignment, running an online shop that is primarily art, working freelance ( contracts, agents, percentages), doing in-person events ( artist alley, markets etc.). But it seems like Kelsey hasnt done any of those things or really talks in depth about those things that really do make real money outside of social media. She focuses on the social media and audience aspect when that again feels like entrepreneurial content not art-specific. Just listen to 'Illustration department podcast' or Three Point Perspective podcast' they interview real working artist and its mind-blowing to see all the different streams of income outside of social media ( something you can use in your art career but isnt art career specific its for ANYONE running a business)
That's why I have so much respect for Rafi and Klee. Real artists, making lots of art and making a living from it. Their advice is real and usable and never feels slimy, unlike.....
I agree, Kelsey gives good entrepreneurial and marketing advice, and it CAN be applied to art business. But it can also be applied to any other kind of business, it’s really not specific to art
The reality is, businesses this day and age are going to have a lot in common and I think the work world tends to attract a lot of people who either aren’t aware of that or refused to acknowledge it.
There wouldn’t be such a huge problem with certain artists working for free for “exposure” and devaluing the entire industry if that wasn’t the case
Kelsey specializes in social media marketing (for artists). It's good for people looking for social media marketing advice, not for anything else. It's like going to Nike, buying a hat and complaining that it's not as good as their shoes. If you're looking for clothes at a soup store, that's on you.
@@HandleToBeDetermined That's fine, but where is the evidence that she has succeeded in marketing her art. From what I understand, the first video she made that had any kind of success was one in which she outlined how much money she had made and how she had made it. The art content she posted after that got nowhere near the views. She made more money from that video than she had from anything before and so she posted another "how much I made" video which showed the increased income from that first video. Every time she made another such video she made even more money while personally admitting that her art videos weren't getting many views and so she would make more "how to make money content" because that was what pays. So yes, she has credentials for how to make money using social media marketing, but not how to make money marketing art. Going to Nike to buy a hat is nothing like clothes shopping at a soup store. Nike has for many decades made all kinds of sports wear and has a reputation for a certain quality across all of its products. Nike can sell sports caps and other sportswear because it first built some credibility in the sphere of running shoes and then diversified to include other sportswear of equal quality and usefulness. Sure there may be some good info in Kelsey's content, eg generating passive income, diversifying your offerings, building a brand identity, but you can get that anywhere. It's the con that she is successful as an artist that is disingenuous.
I watched her video and I immediately realized that it didn't fit my approach to art since I am not a content creator, I am an art creator. However, I still watched the whole thing before I knew there was any drama and found it helpful. It helped me better understand what I do NOT want to do to make money. That hustle is just not for me. All I am trying to say is that videos like that are helpful. It's something she is doing while being an artist, so why can't she make a video about it? If a bodybuilder cooks elaborate meals to get the body that wins them a trophy, why can't they post cooking videos? Same applies here. A business side of an artist's career is just as real as a cooking side of a bodybuilder's career.
I like your mindset! It’s good to acknowledge that something can be unhelpful to you, but it could be helpful for others. It’s nice to hear someone who doesn’t find Kelsey’s videos applicable defend her. Thank you for this nuanced comment!
Yea, except you're skipping and hopping over the fact that the artists are baiting people into thinking the business IS the art
I think it’s a bit the blind leading the blind when it comes to Kelsey. Which can still be helpful in a way, because community can be very encouraging. I’ve been on her discord though, and the best advice for most of the artists there would be to stop watching art business content and worrying about how to market your art for at least a year and focus on honing their craft first. Working on marketing and business too soon is a waste of time and can become discouraging.
This is a good point!
Unfortunately, I've seen many artists worrying about marketing when their product isn't very good. It's not a matter of taste when composition, perspective and anatomy are just not good.
This is the best advice everybody should listen to! I've wasted several years worrying about content creation, marketing and all of this other stuff. Then I noticed that I don't have a solid art portfolio, heck I don't even have a style and I'm still not very good yet.
As someone who is creative, but is an outsider of the "Art Community", it has always been my perception that "Art people" care more about the fantasy of the "Artist Lifestyle" than the realities of making that lifestyle happen. Its barely surprising that the channels who paint an asthetic depiction of the life most people want are loved, and the channel that helps you grapple with the hard part of that dream is hated.
This is a very good point! Someone else mentioned the romanticization of art careers, when in reality it’s a business and it’s not all pretty or fun
Bingo 💯
I'm an artist. I make my living as mail carrier. I make some money doing art but I learned a long time ago that doing art to pay my bills took the fun out of doing art.
I totally agree with your strategy, David. I am an artist. But I have a career as a nurse. I don't think many artists promote this thinking of keeping stress and outside influence out of your art sphere by not needing your art to sell to survive
The same applies to writing.
My most freeing creativity happens around fanfic because its for fun.
I have too much anxiety trying to sell original stories.
@@veronicabaranowski6976
I suffer from anxiety, also. Just don't give it control over the growth in your writing journey. I hope that someday you will share your stories.
I also have a full time career, which is demanding and stressful but pays well. Problem is, leaves me very little energy to be creative. I did work full time as an artist in the 1990s, and it was nice, but also very hard. I would sell 6 paintings, then not sell anything for a few months. The money never was enough compared to the time it took to complete a painting. And I had no health benefits, something I would not consider now. I lived with my boyfriend at the time, and had my parents to help me out if I came up short on the bills. Not sure I would have been able to do it if I lived on my own. So, yeah - selling your work isn’t that hard, but selling enough as a freelance artist to support yourself is another, and there is a lot of pressure.
Same! I love art, and my parents even questioned why I didn't enter an art college instead of medical school, but that's because I cannot handle stress when it comes to artistic hobbies like drawing and writing, so I'd much prefer work in a job that I'm not emotionally invested in while enjoying my art for myself without having to worry how to sell them.
thank you - calling it a pyramid scheme is extremely sensationalistic and honestly manipulative
I don't know much about Kelsey or her content, but I do know that entrepreneurial videos even ones about art can have a really bad habit of packaging well known generic information without going into detail about the specifics. (sometimes those specifics are paywalled! And that's only because those specifics don't work anymore!) the system we exist on is hyper competitive and so I raise my eyebrow HARD at people making claims or giving advice about their business. Because, a lot of the time, the Real information is not something they're willing to give away because every viewer can be potential competition. I think that's why Morgue reflexively called it a scam when it's more misleading, opaque, and at its worst: dishonest.
A lot of business advice is ephemeral and weirdly shallow. Most businesses will not share their growth tips nor any specific marketing advice that can actually be helpful or eye-opening because businesses will always, ALWAYS want you to buy something and are not friendly to competition in the same topic or niche. Watch out for Shovel Salesmen pretending to be Miners!
They probably called it a scam because it also mirrors a lot of the scams happening in youtube, people selling courses on how to make "passive income" and often they are teaching a method which doesn't work and they are actually making money selling the courses.
I highly agree with you!
You hit the nail on the head!
I’ve come to that realization watching videos these videos or even those with the title “spend a day with me” or “day in the life of” yet nowhere in the video do you see them planning their content ideas or managing their socials when that’s their main “business”
We might be impressed by it but it’s so shallow and generic if you really think about it
I will say this Kelsey is not an mlm or a scam but saying shes has an art business is a stretch when its not her main source. Shes more a marketing content creator FOR art. Shes selling marketing help that so happens to BE an art shop. The studio vlogs feel more real because you see the work and from what I've noticed they speak more about the actual art process. I feel like mentioning Inkwell because he goes to conventions to make his sales. For me hearing how you can make art work off of the internet is way more helpful then just selling on etsy or an online store and making video ads. I saw other videos on murals and freelance. Again, it's not just online buzz. So many artists' are tired of the internet, now infact when i saw that Yonemai mai had a gallery I relaized I didn't want to be an internet artist. I think many who see Kelsey are disappointed because the videos are almost completely unrelated to art.
Your video is a very welcome addition to this conversation. Thank you so much for making it! I'm glad Morgue took the initial dive into this discussion, but I shared your frustration with the video's weaknesses, namely that the videos being critiqued are very straightforwardly NOT pyramid schemes and the mocking of Kelsey's mannerisms.
I think you're right that the issue is less that videos like Kelsey's are scams, and more that they present a very very narrow view of how to have an art career. UA-camrs like Kelsey often present their strategy as being more democratic or barrier-free than a traditional art career but that's not really true, it just has different barriers. It's just as subject to luck and privilege as any other art career paths. I think Kelsey could benefit from getting out of the UA-cam bubble more often, but ultimately it's the responsibility of the viewer to have a wide field of vision and get inspiration and education from lots of different sources.
I've noticed there's a lot of tropes on "artist youtube" that are big topics for discussion that just don't really exist outside that context, and this kind of business advice is one of them. Another good example is the "how to find your art style" topic on which there are so many videos. I never ever hear artists discussing having or finding their "art style" outside of youtube, they're much more likely to talk about what inspires or excites them and how that informs their work. I think that's a much healthier and more useful way to talk about it, and is a good example of how artist youtube can go down these discourse rabbit holes that are really unproductive and demoralizing for people. I'm glad to see a new generation of artist youtubers like you that are maybe starting to push against the popularity of these tropes.
I'm excited to watch the rest of your videos ☺
You make lots of good points! I agree, it was good that this conversation was brought up in the original video, but it had some issues. I’m so happy to see people like yourself thinking deeply about this and sharing productive ideas! Thank you so much from commenting and supporting, I’m excited to bring new perspective to this space!
This is a super interesting conversation! I'm someone who makes my full-time income as an artist, in the very same way described, ie: I make vlogs and social media content that serves as marketing, but sell paintings, prints, products, patreon etc.
It's really easy to over romanticise the idea of being a full-time creative, and I think Kelsey does a good job of explaining that it takes a lot of discipline and planning, and often the resources to figure out how to operate are not accessible or easy to find. The thing is, there's tons of people who make their full income off of being artists, and some of them have youtube channels where they share their life and are transparent about the business, but WAY MORE people just operate in a completely different sphere and straight up do not have time or energy to make UA-cam videos because they are busy writing grants, doing freelance projects, painting murals, selling at markets etc. There's only a limited amount of time in a day afterall and making videos is a ton of work.
There are as many ways to *be* an artist as there are artists, and just because your full income doesn't come from art doesn't mean you can't call yourself an artist. If you're an art teacher and you make art, you're an artist. If you're a barista and you make art, you're an artist.
I agree, there’s so many different ways to approach art careers. You’re right that being a UA-camr with an art shop gets romanticized, when it’s actually a lot of time and work! But it’s the kind of work I WANT to do, and I only figured that out with Kelsey’s explanations of art business. Also, I love your videos and your art!! You were one of the artists who inspired me to pursue this path, I’m so honoured you watched my video ❤
@@rubys_trinkets You're killing it for being a new channel!! It truly is the best job ever but you have to really want it, which you can tell that you do. and thank you so much!!
Yes but I think if you make the majority of your money from being a barista or an art teacher.. and then you claim that that’s you making money as an artist ..which is what you are further selling to people.. that can quickly muddy the water and mislead people into thinking your primary source of money is your art. So yes, you can be an artist regardless but also… claiming that you make money off of art when it’s via content creation that is not around your art specifically is a misleading thing to do. Kelsey’s advice is good and it’s adjacent to art but her own art is rarely the focus of her videos. The people watching her content want to make money with their art.. which isn’t what she is doing. She could stop doing art entirely in secret and only focus on her business videos for artists and still make pretty much the same amount of money. Her being transparent and calling herself an art UA-camr is the right way to go and I am glad she made that change.
Something that I learned right after university when job hunting was that while it is really necessary to have a skill, a bit of knowledge in business and marketing goes a long way. It's how you market yourself, and then you get customers. So artists who make business videos need to be praised rather than labeled as "scams".
The reason Morgue's criticisms are valid is because KR makes the majority of her revenue from coaching, selling digital resources for artists, and "how to be a full time artist" videos. While sure, she's "transparent" about this, it doesn't change the fact that none of this involves others buying her art, or her even really making art. In the most recent video I saw of KR's, she showed her backend page on Kofi, if you paused the video, you saw that the majority of her sales were the digital how-to products, not her art. She also tries to funnel people to her coaching a ton in her videos. From experience, that tells me she's not giving me the full story so I will do her coaching.
Morgue brought up a great point in another video of theirs: the majority of art content online uses the art as B-roll for the para-social content, the video essay, the hot take, the customer rant, some small business advice, reading a stolen "AITAH?" reddit post, etc. It's rarely the primary pull. Even this video is an example of that, I was watching for your take, not your art, even though your art is lovely,
As an aspiring artist, I am trying to figure out how to authentically market my art as the primary pull, and to avoid leveraging a weird para-social "connection" to sell, and frankly, I am wondering if that's even possible in 2024.
This is absolutely right, it's almost impossible unless your art is exceptionally masterful or even better some form of entertainment in itself, and if that isn't the case there needs to be a story tied to it that keep the viewers engaged throughout the video. This is an art form in itself! 🤯
Make your art. Find your voice or your style. You make money *after* you become successful. You're not successful because you made a bunch of money. The money is the result of success. People think it's the other way around and while there may be some outliers that fell into a pile of cash, any artist worth a damn became a master of their craft over the course of decades.
Make art with your heart and soul and figure out what you want to say within your medium. People will find it and support it with or without social media. Art has been around since humans evolved(30,000 to 100,000 years ago), social media has only been around 20ish years.
I'm totally doing the mostly B roll footage thing right now because I need people to know me. I need eyes on my art, even if it can't be _about_ my art yet. The hard truth is that no one cares about your art unless you have professional skill and can pump it out like a machine so it's guaranteed to be seen. You have to make them fall in love with _you,_ endear them as best you can, THEN they'll actually give a shit about your passions.
You are sadly so right-you can be the worlds most fantastic artist but if you just sit in your chamber not showing it you will never be ” seen”. The awful truth, one that disgusts most people who are artists, is that you have to violate your own dignity and you have to ” sell yourself ”. We wish we could just be ” found” on our own merits but that is sadly not just done. In order to make a living it is more done to being skilled in selling yourself rather than being a good artist. That is why you seee some rather awful art and mediocre artists being rised to the sky when other, often much better, artists with integrity make a pittance. The art world is not fair in any way-it is not a meritocracy at all. There are van Goghs out there who fade away without anyone who even promoted their art even after they are gone end even less when they were alive. Sad.
The parasocial part is so true, there's another artist I follow and while most of her content is art studio related, her advice is basically to make people have a parasocial relationship with you in order to sell your art to them, not mentioning she started with that "let me show you my unrealistically income I presumably make by selling art" strategy by calling herself a "millionaire small business owner"
My opinion on Morgue video is probably tainted by the fact that I watch the video about how he didn't feel he could make his art work on UA-cam first ("It's UA-cam, not MEtube"), so to me, it felt that he was coming from a place where he was looking for a way to make people online care about his art (and eventually suport him) but when looking for advice he found channels that gave him the anwser "sell a course about art". The thing that stuck to me about the second video was that he didn't want and audience of artist, I don't think he would be mad to have one, but that he wants a more diverse group of people interested in his art, so his focus was on what type of audience that type of "art channels" have. I think there is something to be said about someone whose primary audience are artist selling the idea that they know how to market towards the general public, and I think that's where Morgue was coming from.
I like Kelsey's videos, but I still think there is something there to be talk about. (Also, you had a great conclusion for the video)
That’s an interesting thought, about having an audience of other artists or the general public. The way artists and non-artists interact with art content is bound to be different, I never really thought about that!
I’m glad you liked my conclusion, thank you! And I agree, I think Kelsey makes good videos. But it’s definitely worth exploring what it means to have an audience of inexperienced artists who are looking for guidance
Ruby, this was an exceptional video. I too studied animation and fine art - and everything you said is spot on
Sitting on the side of the road selling art is no way to make a living, it almost never has
Artists often struggle with the business side of things because of how inhumane successful businesspeople can be about it (like the guy who just got reelected president)
Diversity, networking, making a name for yourself - are all mandatory skills to get your artwork in front of eyeballs.
Think about it this way…
Who would you rather do business with, someone who shares valuable things with you and creates a rapport with you or someone who just shoves a painting in front of your face and asks you to buy it?
Remember, people hire people first
You've got a good breakdown here. I think part of the problem is that a lot of people who are new to art as a profession rather than a hobby have an unrealistically romantic idea of what it means to be professional and what it entails. Artists who make money on their art have never been solely artists. And what sells is rarely about the art itself. That's not new; Van Gogh (for one example) was nobody and never sold a painting and died broke. It was his sister in law, after he and her husband were both dead and she needed money, who used marketing to turn him into a premium artist whose work every collector just had to have. It's the same on and off line in this respect. A gallery isn't going to pick up your (general you, not you you) art based solely on the art. You have to be able to market yourself and your art has to be consistent enough for it to be connected to you by sight so that collectors can use it as a status indicator. If you want to make money off your art, you can't just hang out and paint all day, and I think a lot of people think that's what it means to be an artist.
In this particular case, by creating helpful videos that answer the questions her community is asking her to create videos on, she's building "helpful" or "educator" into her personal brand, and that will help open doors to offline sales because she can demonstrate people care about what she has to say.
"have an unrealistically romantic idea of what it means to be professional and what it entails." THIS! Working for ourselves as artist is going to make demands of us bc no matter what we do, we're still the owner of a business. There are probably art career trajectories that allow artists to simply wake up, make art and go to bed but what that likely means is that they're working for someone else who handles all the business side tasks. And those types of art careers are going to be rare in the current economy. And I'm just being generous here in case there are careers like this and I'm misinformed but I don't think that these careers even exist tbh (and likely never did).
I agree with you that you need marketing however the claim that Van Gogh was "unkown" depends on what you mean with that. His familiy, especially his uncle was from the art scene, Van Gogh was known there. He even organized events with artists.
Qoute: "The exhibit is accurate. Van Gogh was definitely on his way to be famous when he died. In the months preceding his death, a particularly laudative article was written about him that put him in the limelight, and, for the first time, some of his paintings were exhibited and noticed. He had people publicly supporting him. It was a matter of time before more people started writing about his genius and that he became a bankable artist. However, even in the "what if" scenario of Vincent Van Gogh not dying in July 1890, his deteriorating mental stability and the death of his brother Theo, who was his main supporter, would have been serious impediments to his rise to fame. Counterfactual history has its limits!
The usual narrative is that Van Gogh was a misunderstood, crazy artist who toiled in loneliness and obscurity until his death. There's some truth in that but it does not tell the whole story.
Van Gogh benefitted from a remarkable social and cultural capital. If one had asked an art connaisseur Parisian about Van Gogh in the mid-1880s, he would have answered "which one?". His uncle Vincent "Cent" Van Gogh had been a prominent and wealthy art dealer and collector whose collection was auctioned off in Paris in 1888. Two other uncles, Cornelius Marinus "C.M" Van Gogh and Hendrik "Hein" Van Gogh, were also in the business. Vincent's brother Theo was managing the Parisian branch of the fine-arts company Goupil & Cie."
The art gallery market is most likely impossible to penetrate without the correct relationships. If he wasnt from a family with art history, he may never would have been.
Artists hate in many cases marketing but they need it to survive.
imo, unfortunately in a hyper capitalist society, being an artist means that 50% of your effort will be spent on marketing, advertising yourself and your art. capitalists have highjacked the arts and turned it into this thing to be consumed, which is why we have AI generated images being used by billion dollar corporations to replace artists just to pump out content to be consumed as fast as possible to make as much profits as possible.
i dont think shes a scammer, i think shes more of an entrepreneur who focuses heavily on marketing her art career, which can be useful information for an artist.
at the end of the day, even if you work a part time job, if youre making art you love and youre happy with the results, youre a successful artist. money doesnt mean shit in terms of success.
also, well thought out video! keep up the great work.
Art on a professional level has always been tied to money. Think all the Christian artists in Europe.. wealthy patrons and the church…until wealthy citizens started commissioning portraits. The idea that artist live purely for art is a post modern scam that has never existed outside of wealthy people.
Yes exactly! The consumption of art really changes the way art careers function, and marketing and entrepreneurship is just part of the deal for many artists. I appreciate your comment!! ❤
@@nah5491That’s very true, we talked a lot about art only being for the wealthy through patrons in art history classes. Artists have never been able to make art full-time without having some kind of financial support from others
@@rubys_trinkets One way to get that financial support is to make your money outside of art. You'll probably earn more and have just as much time, if not more, for actually creating art. This frees you up to make the art you feel compelled to make, rather than something you think will sell quickly.
Only has to be that if you let it
Adam Duff's breakdown on Moran's few recent videos I feel are worth watching. While I haven't seen Morgan's original video, Adam's breakdown mostly shows his update to the pyramid scheme video in full so I got the gist of it. I'd say Morgan doesn't have the experience and mileage needed to be making the critiques he does. I understand the frustration of trying to put your work out there but it seems he did so for a short period of time and expected a miracle. Then when he wasn't an instant success he decided the system was the problem rather than to change his approach. All it shows is how immature he is in that respect IMHO.
I like Adam but his biased, the artists being criticised are his friends, colleagues and I think he dismissed Morgan too easily, Morgan had valid points, specially when you look at other places of the Internet and very similarly packaged things are called scams, like all of the passive income people.
I don't feel scammed through Kelsey at all. She is absolutely honest in her videos about how her content is mostly about business. In fact she struggled herself with this identity as someone who provides mostly business knowledge in her video. Calling herself an art-youtuber now is the end of a process she did go through. Things in life are fluid and she evolved herself into an art business consultant. But this does not mean that she is no full-time-artist anymore! She runs a successful business using her creative ability and I highly appreciate any artist who speaks transparent about how much work needs to be done to promote your art. Those cozy Vlogs often don't show the reality. Fairylike artists dance through their studios (I love to watch this myself, it sells a dream of being a free spirit), artists painting in lovely dresses without staining them... all sort of entertaining stuff. It is lovely made and nice to watch - but it does not show the reality. I am very concerned what happens to the art-community these days. Ranting on other artists, telling watchers not to trust other art-youtubers, even mocking on someone being nervous in front of the camera :( ... Seems like competition causes them to attack one another. A very sad trend in my opinion.
Morg is right that the majority of “art content” has the art as accidental B-roll. They are about community drama, or trending topics, or well worn debates. The art here is just screen filler. I’ve done these myself. Art business/guru channels are the worst cases because they do same whilst also talking about how art can be really successful as a career if you do what they did - make videos where the art doesn’t really matter.
I do appreciate your point about driving people to your art store or such. People watch these kinds of videos the most so.. it makes sense to make them.
Is this bad? I think it’s a shame that purely art focussed videos don’t do very well anymore compared with spicy talking points and “business gurus”.
tbh I think the reality that a lot of people don't want to face is that being a full time artist is not sustainable for a lot of people. The reason why a lot of artists have to survive off of youtube or sponsorships is because simply selling art doesn't pay the bills. I went to a fine arts school too and everyone who graduated with me does not have work in the gallery art space but instead became teachers or graphic designers. It just isn't viable for most people to sell art independently without multiple sources of income. UA-camrs are selling a dream that just doesn't work. I honestly regret wasting time in fine arts and am now working on getting into video game art which is an infinitely more viable career even despite the horrible layoffs. A lot of artists are just too afraid to face reality.
upon checking out kelsey's stuff, she's obviously focusing on the business aspect of things. i don't really see the issue in that. deadass why should i care what this woman is doing, it doesn't seem harmful, or like a scam...?
and she does post art on instagram at the very least.
comparing this to mlms is a bit much. with mlms you can very clearly see and track that they ARE harmful
Yeah, but her business isnt "the art" but the "art business" which she doesnt have. Not an mlm for any stretch, but shes not verses in art business, she is versed in content creator business
@@TrishhMakes what kind of content? Is it art content?
Kelsey is not a scammer, some people are just bitter when someone else has success
Agreed!!! I don't see why someone would take issue with Kelsey! She's very transparent and everyone can see that she doesn't make her income with 'art' and she even mentions it often.
6:02 a full time artist to me is an artist who’s main job is their art career, be it freelance, self employment, Disney, etc
Basically if their doing art for a living?
Uh.. I think the way most people understand this is.. that being an artist is not the same as being a full time artist. Being an “artist” means you make art. Being a “full time artist” means that your primary source of income with which you support yourself is your art. If your content focuses on your own art (like making polymer mushrooms).. then that is just another way you are selling your art and I think Full Time is the appropriate label here. If your content doesn’t focus on your own art.. then you’re not a “full time artist” …but you’re still an “artist”. You can be a full time nurse and still be an artist. You can be a full time content creator of any kind and still be an artist.. assuming your own art isn’t the focus of your content. Kelsey is still an artist but she makes money with her content that doesn’t hinge on her own art.
Content creation is an art itself. No different than movies or shows. She even says she doesn't make as much art as she would like to.
Yes! Entertainment and filmography (even if not on a professional level) are art too! Art is more than a painting
Yes and no, content creation can be a art but you can't say all content creation is. Nobody would say Logan Paul is an art creator. I also don't see Kelsey videos as art. They are just simply not.
I don't have a problem with artists making yt videos, it can be done right. Tammy form Uncomfy is a great example. She is also selling dream as an artist, surely her earnings mostly come form yt but she is still selling art and doing it.
@ in the same way not everyone that draws a doodle or a stick figure is an artist 🤷♂️ obviously there are limitations
Honestly I get it because imagine if someone made a video like "how I make 5000$ through gaming" and it boils down to sponsorships UA-cam revenue etc.
Like I'm glad you're making money but no you're not making money from your art or your gaming
Someone who I would say makes money from her art and does content creation is lavendertowne (no matter your opinions on her) every video has and will be art centric (and it's not just critiquing other people's art or fixing/roasting it) and she also made a webcomic which she sold and promoted equally with her ocs
I think the problem a lot of people have (including me) is how misleading the videos are. Most content creators who talk more about their business than their art are making money off of people who want to start their own art career. They tell the viewer that by following their steps, the viewer can become successful (or even get a high amount of money) by selling their own art. Even though that’s not the case. If they follow the specific steps, all they end up being is a fulltime content creator with an art side hustle. And maybe they won’t sell art at all and only sell content and courses themselves.
I think selling the idea of being a successful art seller through their courses, even though it won’t be helping you achieve that goal, is in fact a scam. And it doesn’t matter if the intent is a different one, it is still selling wrong ideas to people. People (especially young people) could lose a lot of money trying to launch a shop and making lots of products because they got encouraged by those creators
Thanks for making this video! I saw the original 'scam video' and you've managed to cover a lot of my thoughts.
The idea of being a "starving artist" comes from the fact that being an artist IS a huge percent marketing and making sales... But it's generally ONLY people with connections that can sell their art. What hope is there if you're shy, unconnected, and just not a salesperson? Most of us would have never had even a tiny chance before social media came along.
Kelseys videos have made me feel hopeful, not because I want to follow her business model exactly, but because she is thoughtful, and she is someone with a chronic illness like me who has been able to work hard, got lucky, and has made a career for herself by making her connections online and finding a way to make it work. Yes, I do think she is learning a lot as she goes along and simply voicing what she has learnt. Whether it's actionable for most people is another story but I think that's fine because she never claims it's easy, and she still provides some really valuable insights.
Imo you also DON'T have to be making art 24/7 to be an artist. That results in burnout for most people and it's just not sustainable to create, create, create with no breaks in between, and I think the people online who do portray the idea that they are making new art every single day are either energetic, healthy, perfect people... or liars... because at least as chronic illness folk (which surprisingly many artists are) it's not sustainable to make art every day.
Art should make us think. It is a space where we can express ourselves and invoke people to feel things. BUT there are times when the art of video and spoken word are just as effective or moreso, and that's okay. I think Kelsey considers her videos as a part of her art form and I'd agree, much like your video above, these conversations are an art of expression and provokers of thought, even if there is money being exchanged in the form of sponsorships and adsense, it doesn't necessarily make it inauthentic or scammy, it's just the world we live in.
I generally agree with your thoughts here and I thought this was an interesting and timely analysis!
Something kinda similar that happens is when college professors make a big chunk of their income as teachers rather than in their field. Students who don't want to follow that career model often have to find role models elsewhere.
There used to be a podcast that I listened to where independent artists interviewed an artist every week and so we had a wide variety of perspectives on how people make their living as artists (for the most part, self-employed, freelance--basically mostly artists who weren't full-time employees somewhere else). They would talk about how they'd typically spend their week, what kind of projects they work on, how they got consistent work (or gained an audience if they sell product). Unfortunately the podcast is gone now so I won't even say what it was called, but I kinda miss that, those genuine conversations between artists for the sake of other artists. There are content creators who are pretty transparent, and there are also content creators who lean into idealism.
I for one, love it when creators remind me that my goals are possible by sharing their successes and a bit of insight into how they got there. Professional art making has soooooo mannnyyyy possible paths that you can take, but not all of them fulfill all your financial needs unless to take some specific steps (and even then there are a few options).
Thank you!! And exactly, art business looks soooo different for everyone. Despite its challenges, it has the benefit of being flexible depending on the goals of the artist. That podcast sounds great, it’s too bad they stopped.
I’m glad to hear you like when artists share their success! I also like hearing about them reaching their goals and achieving their dreams and sharing some advice on how they got there
This was great, so well articulated. I'm on a similar journey, launching an art channel. It's so tricky because "artist" and "content creator" are two very different jobs, but if you want to make art and make money, then a great way to do that is be a content creator. I don't see it as "selling hope" if they're just giving away their playbook for a real viable career option that lots of people are capable of. Glad this popped into my feed, looking forward to seeing this channel's growth!
Business advice for artists should be able to apply to ANY business. That’s how you know it’s actually decent advice. There are some unique aspects to any kind of business but all in all business is business and it’s a necessary skill if you want to use your art to make a living.
As someone who sells at markets and art shows, I use social media (insta and TikTok) to boost, advertise and keep in touch with local collectors or potential collectors as well as network with other local artists. I think selling via social media is a completely different game. I do think that content creation in that sphere is very much about selling oneself or an idea. At the same time, click bait titles that overpromise success really annoy me - so I appreciate your commitment to transparency.
Really liked your disclaimer!! ❤
I wonder if this discussion is just the 21st century equivalent of great artists using apprentices historically. We often look at a work by a great master and are impressed by their skill, but we forget about apprentices supporting them - without that help, they would not have been half as successful.
Maybe these people *are* fulltime artists but we do not want to recognise all te things it takes to be a fulltime *working* artist, rather than someone with immense privilege that affords them the time and resources to only do purely artistic creation.
I've noticed this across a wide range of my interests (gardening, art, sewing, knitting, etc). Beautiful and wonderful content, things I had always wanted to do and it was interesting to see how they did it. Except when you dig deeper it was coaching, retreats, classes, and other marketing that kept it all afloat. They have a social media assistant that keeps up with editing and posting content. Yes, some ppl have the know how and time to do it all but for most it's a bit unrealistic. (And yes, I love listening to artists in the background when I am doing things. Embroidery is my current favorite :) )
yes true Kelsey's videos is more practical lesson. I do remember she says,"You Need an Audience". Thats the time I stopped focus on business numbers, I start to grow number of audience instead.
I watch Kelsey, she seems pretty legit, and love her content. Everyone has their own Journey in how they do their own business. I'd love to be a full time artist.. but Maybe in due time. Glad you made this video. God bless
Extremely important topic for us to discuss honestly. And I understand where the frustration comes from. I too have felt many times that the way in which creatives, especially visual artists, have turned into gurus and profit off of their own community is borderline predatory. People like Kelsey are probably seen as too young and too confident to give advice, especially since she started being noticed by other art gurus with actual decades of experience.
But this is the environment that we're dealing with. Social media is an interest-led mechanism and tutorials with titles in the form of the most asked questions will always perform better than an original piece of art. This is why most advice for anyone trying to get noticed is to turn into a teacher, a skill not many have, sharing advice that most of the times is very superficial.
What is important for artists to understand is that no one cares about your art as much as you do, HOWEVER, no matter how great your art is, you most likely suck at selling it, and I include myself in that group, because we didn't learn the absolutely NECESSARY skills of marketing and business management, at least at the basic level. Where we must break away from the trend is to learn how to appreciate, value and celebrate what we make and go find our audience. Which is NOT OTHER ARTISTS.
If the only artists we see succeeding online are the ones that use it as a means to an end, a thing that they apply their marketing and business knowledge to, then of course we'll feel betrayed and taken advantage of. Your clients are not young creatives that are lost and looking for advice, those are your peers.
In branding and brand messaging, one of the elementary concepts to learn is that you're not advertising the product, but a feeling, a mood, a way of life.
If we blindly follow art gurus and teachers, we're left with becoming more content creators than artists, selling yap soup to other artists, in a never-ending cycle of community cannibalization.
My advice is to pick up what resonates with you from these people, bend it to your needs and skills into a shape that you can stomach to apply, and move on with gratitude and purpose.
Oh, and what doesn't work for you is best left behind. Remember, recipes come AFTER a thing was done, often ignoring a lot of context.
A well thought out and explained video, Ruby. Thanks for that. Here are some thoughts...
I've been a full-time artist for more than 20 years. Half of my business has been as a self-syndicated editorial cartoonist. The other half is my whimsical wildlife paintings. I have always considered it a business and the nature of my income changes from year to year. As technology, advertising and self-promotion evolves and changes, the artist must adapt, too. Business skills are an absolute necessity. Bookkeeping is one of my most valuable skills. I once had an artist friend who often joked that she was still waiting for her benefactor, meaning a rich patron who would show up and pay her to create art all day, just so they could be near a creative person and enjoy their art. That's rarer than a winning lottery ticket. Is that what people mistakenly believe defines a full-time artist?
Every self-employed creative I know works almost every day, longer hours than they would if they worked for somebody else. There's no vacation pay, unemployment insurance, health benefits, or boss to keep you on track or disciplined. Everything is on you. And even though you get better at the business part of it, it's never easy. No self-employment is easy. Half of my business is dying a slow death because newspapers are dying. Those were good reliable clients every day for more than twenty years. Facebook, Instagram and Twitter used to provide free advertising and a relatively easy way to reach a lot of people. That's over now. I get most of my engagement with my buyers and followers from my website and email list now. Galleries are not the be all and end all, in fact most of them are big pains in the ass. You're only as good as the money you make them, because they are a business, too. They have no time to waste on artists whose work doesn't sell, and they expect you to promote yourself more than they do. That's work, and as soon as you're yesterday's news...see ya.
Things will change and a lifelong art career means adapting and evolving. When something no longer works, you adjust course. Find a new way to reach your audience, those people who love your work.
I found your video because I'm about to invest more of my time and energy into UA-cam videos. I've been slack on that and it would be foolish to continue to ignore the potential audience that can be reached on this platform. It will be a lot of hard work and it may or may not be worth my time. But there are never any guarantees. I have watched several of Kelsey's videos and I think she's doing great, because she's found a way to earn a living, either directly from her art or from talking about art and sharing what she knows. I've learned a few things from her and she's young enough to be my daughter. Rather than look at UA-cam as something to criticize, celebrate that we live in a golden age where EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW is free for the asking. You just have to dig through a lot of stuff that's just noise.
There will always be critics, most of whom are trying to poke holes in somebody else's success, however marginal, so they can justify not having to try themselves. Bringing somebody else down makes some people feel better about their own shortcomings. That's as old as human beings. We tear people down to feel better about ourselves.
Art markets involve a lot of work, from preparation of products, to advertising, to sales and marketing. You know how you get a lot of your customers at markets? You advertise to them ahead of time, let them know you'll be there. It takes time and effort. I have commercial licensing clients, companies who 'rent' my work in exchange for royalty payments. Working with them takes time and energy, too. Writing posts, creating content, and researching new means of making a living, all of that takes time. And you will try a LOT of stuff that won't work, but the only way to know is to try it and see. That takes time. I could write for another hour about all of the work involved, but this comment is already way too long. Sorry about that.
I AM a full-time artist, and I spend more time on the business of art than I do creating art.
That's what I signed up for. And anybody who wants to create art for a living, that's what you're signing up for, too. And I mean this with all sincerity to anyone who has made it this far. Good luck. I want all of you to try and succeed. Because it's a lot better than working for somebody else.
Stopping at 20:05 to say: I am doing my art right now while listening to you on the background, thank you for keeping me company :)
@@WermoongReyArt I’m honoured to be playing while you do art!!
great video! I don't think people realise that the word artist and content creator are slowly becoming the same thing. If you don't create content unfortunately no one will see your art. Most likely an artist that creates lower quality art but has the ability to share their art or life in what ever way they wish, is going to find more success. I personally hate it but that's the reality of art today. Hating on an artist for how they make a living, so they can enjoy art is messed up. Producing videos that are monetised, calling people out. Is more messed up. Being An artist today is difficult, In Australia Like 9% of the population work full time as an artist. shits cooked. we should all be trying to create stronger community's. not ripping them apart
I watched Kelsey's videos for years and saw firsthand how she started as an art channel and slowly moved towards the entrepereur/business side without really producing much art in general.
I unsubbed when this entrepreneur/business model took over completely and she posted a new channel where she said she would be uploading art process, art vlogs, etc but that channel stayed empty for at least a year while she kept posting that other kind of videos on her main channel.
The thing I also saw in her videos is that after you watch one video or two of the business/coaching type, you kindof watched them all because, just like you're claiming that there's not much to say about art because art is intrinsically personal and everyone is doing something different; in business, the goal is one and therefore the things you need to do are pretty straight forward and works for any kind of business, not just art.
A part-time job in a small retailer or a family owned business will teach you that pretty quickly if you pay attention.
What really bothered me is the empty second channel, that after a year started uploading more of the coaching videos she already posted in the first channel.
With each new video, I felt I was watching a huge ad full of buzz-words for her own paid coaching business and affiliate link programs with other teaching entities.
That's why a lot of people seem to be mad and felt scammed possibly, I can't imagine how the ones that were paying for her services felt or are feeling now.
To me it seemed more a matter of time for someone to feel enough of something to bring this part of Art UA-cam into question.
We choose where to put our attention.
Just as we as artists need to find our audience, we are her target audience.
She chose to keep repeating herself though and without having conversations about anything other than money-making--I say this because you showed other art UA-camrs as example and they definitely talk about other things-- I chose to just not watch anymore.
I don't see a problem with these videos, i think they can be extremely helpful. Anyone who wants a business of any kind needs advertising and marketing to be successful and whether you show yourself doing that or like in the case of a gallery artist someone else does it for you, its a necessary part of the job. To pretend that you can just make art without showing all the behind the scenes work that goes into it is far more deceptive than explaining all aspects including those purely business related which the reality is that it's absolutely necessary to do as well as the art. Sounds to me like this morgue person is quite biased and somewhat delusional if they think you can just make art without all the marketing and advertising and still expect to be successful. They are denying the reality of all business be it art or not and are just sour it takes more than they thought to be successful. I personally appreciate Kelsey's types of videos as they don't whitewash the true amount of non related art work that needs to be done and are a valuable source of knowledge. When you're self employed you have to do these things no matter your product, its just the reality of selling in todays social media focused society. Morgue needs a harsh reality check if they think any different and is a bit of a hypocrite when they're focused on just drama, after all they're making an income off starting contraversy where none existed before just for views, which to be honest is a more manipulative and despicable way to make money, shame on them..
Honestly I think that a lot of this comes from people not actually understanding what working means. A bunch of starry eyed idealists who dream of just doing what they love and not realising that the world almost never works that way. Ultimately, most of the time? You have two choices. You either work for a living wage doing something else and do what you love after hours, or you spend the living wage work equivalent doing stuff to try to turn what you love into a living wage source. I'd argue that the latter still gives you more time to work on things that are actually your own, because even if most of the time you're spending is spent on content creation, it's still often content creation that can be done at least to *some* point by doing what you want anyway.
Recording videos of drawing while talking, etc. I think it still absolutely counts as being a full-time artist if the content you create is about your art creation. The moment it becomes mostly business advice... yeah, the labelling may get more muddy there. But unless the videos are promoting actually harmful or blatantly ineffective practices (or, you know, saying that you can become an artist by generating everything...), I find it pointlessly vitriolic, and - worse yet - misleading, to call it a scam. Soon enough the word is going to lose all meaning and when that happens... good luck dealing with actual scams, which are plenty out there.
This is an interesting conversation, I am a full time artist and zine maker, but of course you have to do ALL the other things that go with running a business, and having multiple streams of income is needed as an artist because we need to live. That’s why Patreon is so popular.I think it’s ok to say it’s full time because let’s face it we work for many many hours, way over full time hours.
My issue with a lot of these “ gurus” is their solution to any of the ills that plague the industry is wether it’s AI art, globalization or a shrinking direct market is “ just become an influencer “ and they think anyone can don it bc they have done so. As a UA-camr myself who paints at I think a pretty high level - it’s not as easy as it sounds. The exception doesn’t prove the rule
Personally I watch art UA-camrs for their personality and passions. I feel like that's the case for many people, and so the type of video you make isn't incredibly important. Also limiting to one type of video can just lead to you as a creator feeling suffocated/burnout. I'm excited to see what content you make that's uniquely you especially after hearing how well thought out this one was.
I really appreciate that, thank you so much! I agree, I enjoy getting to know artists and their work through their videos
Stories of artists trying their best every day to keep afloat in a perpetually flooding world keeps me going in my own life.
This was such a great video!! My pet peeve is when people say "UA-cam doesn't pay much in ads. It's only a TINY portion of my income, like $3k/month" (or something similar). It drives me nuts! If I made that much from UA-cam I would never have to worry about bills again!!
Re: Kelsey, I think she's great, I like her videos and I think she's such a talented artist!
Exactly! I stopped watching such videos coz they just bothered me. All big creators going on about how horrible UA-cam adsense is because they only get peanuts (5k). Like, give me that 5k a month if you hate it so much 🙄
I’m open to the importance of wearing several hats as a full time artist. And I know I don’t want to be a content creator. I’ve tried that and enjoyed it for a bit; people loved my teaching skills but I only made art to fit in what the audience was interested in, not the art I wanted to make. I’d love to find out more ways we can use social media as marketing tools without content creation. Let’s face it: content creation is a full time job for Pete’s sake!, it’s not just one hat among many. And I hate it when people/ you just dismiss artists who don’t want that as not willing to put in the effort. I am an artist. I make art. And I want to learn how to market it without my art taking a huge hit.
I kinda get what you mean, but I think the problem is that it's an ouroboros type situation, a kindof paradox. How do I make money as an artist? -> I make videos and courses that I monetize about how I make money as an artist, and you can too! Rinse, and repeat. Actual practical advice about how to make money from you art (which is the misleading implication) feels absent. and it's a shame, because there are so many different avenues in order to do that, and facets of each that would be genuinely interesting to see explored in more depth and with more specificity. For example, "here's a list of manufacturers and how I would rate them in terms of quality and price for making different products like prints, keychains, art books, etc." or "tips on how to organize an artists alley/craft festival table display" or "tools for building a website to host your shop/portfolio, and the pros and cons of different ways of doing that." those types of videos are much less common, but they feel like they actually give you any worthwhile information. I feel like kelsey's videos in particular felt too similar too eachother like they were variations on the same talking points, and like at the end of them I went away without having actually gained any meaningful insight, but maybe that's just me. It feels predatory. Still, it's unfair of people to shit on kelsey's appearance or mannerisms. That's just bullying.
I appreciate you sharing your thoughts, especially the specific examples of what advice you would find helpful! You’re valid for how you feel about this kind of content, and you’re definitely not the only one, since many people agree with you in the comments of both Morgue and my video. I think two things can be true at once, some people find Kelsey’s content helpful and some don’t.
At the end of the day, I wanted to learn whatever lessons I could from this situation, so your feedback helps a lot. I will also add, I feel like unfortunately the kind of advice you mentioned wanting to see don’t perform as well as the ones mentioned in this video… Flashy numbers and clickbait are just more effective at getting views, so there’s more incentive to make them. But I have hope that this is something we can change, since there is now demand for honesty and authenticity. Kind of like “voting with your dollar” but with views, the more we seek out and support artists who align with what we want to see, the more they can create those videos. Thanks for sharing your insight!
this is feels, fr. we need people who are willing to do art business. i do art youtube but i need to make content to bring people to my stuff, even then there is no guarantee that anyone will buy stuff until you meet a threshold. I have been grinding for a while and only realized now that i made myself 'art news' instead of 'art artist', and i'm concerned if anyone will ever buy my works or my small comic i made. i value art business, but i'd also value if someone told you what to do once you have that audience. :\
@@friendlyneighborhoodartist I understand what you mean completely. and I actually watched one of your videos about League of Legends art in the past, I’m honoured you watched my video!! ❤️
If it’s any comfort, I’ve had quite a few people ask about my art shop and purchasing my work, so I definitely think it’s possible to find people who want your art through content creation. It’s just a matter of balancing the entertainment/advice content with your own work, or even combining the two somehow. I also think building a community is a key factor, connecting with your audience is very important. Having a dedicated audience who want to support you is much more important than a large number of views imo, because those are the viewers who will want to support you and see more from you instead of just popping in for one video. This is definitely something I want to expand on in the future, thank you for sharing your experience!
Yes, I agree with your point. There is no right or wrong. UA-cam is a platform for a content creator to create tutoring and entertainment. Eventually, get a sponsorship to be able to have a stable income for future content. No one can live without money. Kudos.
I completely agreed with morgue that quality art alone is not enough to make a channel popular or get it attention but I also felt like at times they were being bitter and projecting the idea that they only liked making art videos onto other artists by acting like other artists only make shop restocking videos or challenge and art tips etc videos for marketing and not because they might like making those too. Their commentary on the "artists" who only make videos on "how to make a bazillion dollars as an artist" while seemingly never actually making or selling art were super valid.
A lot of good points. I feel the same way, I felt like Morgue had some good critiques but also didn’t consider the fact that some artists may enjoy the craft of making videos and building a community. Marketing is a benefit for sure, but sharing yourself through videos can be its own motivation too!
You have provided a plethora of experience and info. I am an old gal and have watched the art world evolve and appreciate your perspective. Great video. Thank you!
Such a good discussion. Art and art adjacent work has become more time trying to sell the pieces than creating them… unless one has a specific client or patron… or manager doing all of the negotiating and marketing for you.
I studied architecture and most architects either work in firms where the different responsibilities are divied up, or if they have a single person office, spend an inordinate amount of time filling out permits, finding new clients and drawing the technical plans compared to designing (the art part).
Being self employed in the art world will always require knowledge of business practices, careful time management, and local tax laws.
Social media skills are important for every artist (although with AI theft it’s getting tricky). There are as you mentioned so many avenues to art as a career. Wishing everyone luck and all the good things.
Excellent analysis 👌 Really enjoyed listening to your perspective and breakdown of this “drama”!
@@AnnaBucciarelli Thank you so much!!
This was a good conversation. Thanks for breaking it down. I wasn't aware of these feelings, but I can understand both sides
I loved listening to your thoughts on this & seeing you make your beautiful artwork! As a fellow Filipino creative trying to grow & share the things I like to make, I’m wishing you luck & looking forward to watching more of your videos :)
Thank you so much! ❤️ I wish you luck as well, it’s so great to meet another Filipino creative!
Wether someone sees art content creators are full-time artist depends a lot on wether they see art teachers as full-time artists.
It’s fascinating to me when people claim it’s "misleading" to discuss the business side of art. Most artists are still working full-time jobs, unemployed, or struggling to earn income from their passion. Many of us went to college thinking that a degree would lead to a paid career as an artist, but that hasn’t been the reality. College sold us that dream, not Kelsey or anyone else.
In fact, most of us here have paid to pursue our art education, and yet we’re still not "successful" in the sense of making a living from our art. Why? Because it’s not enough anymore for art to "sell itself"-we have to learn the business side of things. We’re not in the age of the old masters, who networked and promoted themselves to be recognized by kings and queens across countries. Even back then, artists were involved in self-promotion to be noticed.
Selling may not feel natural to some of us, but sharing what we love and recommending it isn’t much different from selling. Putting your art in a gallery doesn’t make it any less of a business; it’s still being sold to someone. The problem is, many of us can’t produce work fast enough to keep up, and even if we do, it’s hard to stand out. Without setting ourselves apart and making people know who we are, it’s unlikely our work will get noticed among the crowd.
If you’re uncomfortable with the business side, maybe social media isn’t the right platform for you, but it’s still promotion, whether you do it yourself or hire someone else. Embracing the logistics of selling your art is part of making a career as an artist in today’s world.
This is a really good overview of what these artists do. Nicely done! I unsubbed from Kelsey's youtube awhile back, because as a 50-something "older GenX" woman just returning to my love of full time artist after 30 years of a public education and mental health career, I felt I was not her target audience. In fact, she said several times that her target audience is "other young artists trying to make a living from their art."
Sometimes, because I am older Gen-Z, I do get annoyed by mannerisms, or feeling that I'm being put in an "old person not worthy of my own full time art career" sort of box. However, I got over myself and realizes that Kelsey and others like her are actually HELPING me with my own art career, even though I might not be their "target" audience. I want to learn the business side of things. I want to grow my channel and many of her tips are extremely helpful in doing that.
Finally, these are not "Pyramid schemes" or MLM marketing schemes. The Morgue person who said that obviously has no understanding at ALL about what those schemes are (check out LulaRoe and its rise and fall if you want to find out what a real MLM scheme is). Does Kelsey sell courses? Sure! Does she say, "you must purchase my course in order to find out how to make a full time living"? No - she offers free information on youtube, and sells courses for folks who want to go more in-depth or keep all of her information in one place, in order, so they don't have to search through all of her videos to find the info.
I'm in my 40s and find it really hard also to navigate an art career. Listening to the younger generations, i feel too old to get my art out there, because I'm not into the millenial way of doing it on social media. I also feel like since I was never there in my 20s, I'm too old now to get anywhere. Are there older artists on YT that anyone can recommend to follow for inspiration & advice?
@@annespringer5720 school of visual storytelling is a good UA-cam channel to check out. It’s a discussion & advice channel, of three older guys, with years of experience in the industry.
@@annespringer5720 School of visual storytelling is a good UA-cam channel. It is a discussion & advice channel by three older gentleman, with years of experience in the industry.
In general all of these 'full time' artists are creating content around things/experiences that are a result of them creating art. All of them likely started out thinking some day they'd like to sit around all day creating art that 'just sells'. That's not how art business works. Even top tier artists, who sell art for millions of dollars, do marketing (or hire someone to do marketing for them).
I personally don't define myself as anything more than an 'artist'. I don't make a living from my art, but I do make a nice side income from a lot of art-adjacent interests like teaching an animation software I use, selling prints, affiliate links to software I use in my animation work etc. All of these things allow me to be at home as much as I want creating art whenever I want... and most importantly creating the art I want to make - rather than what I think will sell.
Don't over think it... and maybe don't give too much weight to people who aren't actually modelling the kind of successful art career you're looking to achieve.
It is a very nice thing to see that some people can still actually think things through rather than make hasty judgements based on a millisecond instinct to hate someone because that said someone didn't deliver exactly what they were expecting based on some words they read on the thumbnail. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Also, lovely key chains :)
I love how u are just addressing the problems. Instead of resulting to mocking them ❤
Kelsey Rodriguez was the first person I thought of when I started listening to this video. Only because I started clicking on her videos and I had to go way way way back to find anything that was actually “art” related. Like a tutorial, or a sketchbook tour or something showcasing her actual art. All this did was get me to be disinterested and a little annoyed at the fact that she had clearly been monetized from all of the attention she was getting. And yes, I have noticed this with other art channels. While it may be helpful every now, and then to hear about a person‘s successful journey, financially related to art, even as a content creator Myself, I’m still looking for a good old technique or tutorial that gets down to business and shows me what I came to see, the art. I’m not adverse to the idea of being successful here on UA-cam obviously but it does have a MLM feel to it with a modern twist. Not necessarily recruiting, but heavy influencing. In my opinion, this is just causing over saturation of the niche. Interesting topic though.
13:50 I’ll put my two cents and add that many artists do say how much time content creations takes up when in reality they wish they could be using that time to make art/sell art but as mentioned that’s very hard without an audience
Oh, and- im sorry to double comment but I thought you should know-- I was working on inking a client comic while watching this video. Congratulations, your channel is already doing what it has set out to do. Keep it up-- I love watching artists work on the art aspect of the business (as someone who practices art the same way). Some video types I enjoy are time lapses, as well as 'tour' type videos that go into sort of the BTS of your thought process and how you develop a concept; picking other artist brains is what motivates me to make more art the most I think-- because making art is a gift, to me a miracle of life, and I love to witness it.
Cheers!~
This is so amazing to hear, thank you so much!! I’ll keep that in mind, thank you for sharing what kind of videos you like! I will strive to keep being your background entertainment ❤️
I don't think professional artists have a choice in whether or not they have to scam viewers or not.
If you're a content creator and you did A/B testing on your thumbnail, and one thumbnail says "I made $10,000 from my art", and another says "I made $10,000 from my art business", one is going to get a ton of views and the other isn't. You don't have the time and energy to sit every subscriber down and explain to them why their dreams of just only making art is unrealistic.
You just change the thumbnail so that your video doesn't get buried by the algorithm.
One thing is to be a content creator, all good and well. Another is to be an artist on social media.
There are many artists who are both, content creator AND sell their art.
What kelsey does is sell the idea of a succesful art business, which she does not have. She has a successful content creatir business.
But she still sells courses on being an art business, which is not what she is. She doesnt even sell her art.
If thats not a scam maybe it is a deceiving marketing of her products.
Content creation is an art that blends:
Videography, writing, editing, audio, graphic design, and a little bit of acting.
It boggles my mind that people forget the video themselves are art.
@@JokullFrosti she did nothing wrong and don't deserve hate. but i can see why this happen. i think its cause kelsey don't get as much respect as artist than businesswoman. lot of people ask 'wait she has art shop?' 'wait she's an artist?' and other things. despite her talking about how artschool is a scam. she REALLY sound like artschool prof. theres really no logical esplanation on her hate really. lot of artist just don't like kelsey type of person. the cancelling and spreading hate are wrong but disliking someone is totally normal
@@JokullFrosti this is my experience on art university. if the prof are not a better artist than a teacher. the student won't respect you. they will talk shit behind the prof back. same shit apply to kelsey.
I’m so glad to see a response to that video. To me it came off more as envious than anything really reputable. He just seemed unnecessarily angry about their approach to making money. (A ‘don’t hate the player hate the game’ scenario in my opinion.) Kelsey even says in her videos that she considers ‘the data of monetization’ as one of her niches as it’s a top interest along with her art. He never mentions that, he ignored that premise and her transparency so I felt like his argument had no foundation. I discovered Kelsey as I was researching what I wanted to do with my own channel and found her really helpful, I too have a masters degree in design but that doesn’t mean I’ve ever navigated the realm of promoting my art to make it into a more viable business, so I enjoyed her content around that along with her discussing some of the hurdles she’s faced, it made me set more realistic goals and expectations and informed me of future potential struggles.
In my original script I also compared the situation to “don’t hate the player hate the game”!! Thank you for bringing that up, it’s a good point. And I feel the same way with my degree, even though I have the credentials, I didn’t have any knowledge on marketing or business! I also found value in Kelsey’s content because of that. Thank you for sharing and I hope things go well in your artistic endeavours! ❤️
I'm very much in the middle on this as I can see points to either side of argumentation.
(Although it's not fair to call Kelsey a scam or a pyramid scheme, I think that was too harsh. On the other hand I also felt like Kelsey's response might have been a bit unproportionate considering Morgue is such a small creator).
I want to raise a few points I haven't yet seen mentioned in any of the comment sections:
For me personally there's a bit of a disconnect with how Kelsey talks about business which I feel is based on a cultural divide. The kind of rags to riches idea that everyone can make it no matter their background or means is very American to me. That's a mentality I find a bit hard to relate to as a European, especially as someone who is working as a full time artist and is very aware of the fact I mostly am able to have this life because I come from a very privileged background. It's not a negative thing to believe in the American dream, especially as an American, but it pushes a very romanticized narrative that might not be true for everyone watching and that can be problematic for more impressionable younger folks. Morgue felt to me like a person who has become quite disillusioned with that idea or the fact that being a full time artist sometimes also means being a fulltime business and marketing person as well. And I can relate to the frustration.
My other point is that the Art youtuber / art content creator niche is a very specific niche of the art industry. Kelsey's advice works super well for artists that utilize social media to make sales. It's absolutely a very valid career choice and just because someone diversifies their income through social media doesn't mean they're not an artist. However that's only a small part of the art industry and there are many many other careers that simply function differently and don't rely on you making sales and getting engagement.
I work in the entertainment industry and at the beginning of my career I was very confused on how exactly to break into the industry and earn money. Videos like Kelsey's, while extremely helpful for a certain niche, confused me a lot and made me worry about aspects of my career that in reality weren't even important in my line of work. I spent years trying to figure out algorithms and business strategies before I realized I don't even need social media in my particular field of work :') A lot of time wasted that I could've used to hone my skills in other areas.
Now that's obviously on me for being misinformed but I think these type of business guru videos can sometimes do more harm than good.
That said Kelsey is obviously free to create and post any type of content she likes and people should just decide for themselves if the advice she gives applies to them or not, you can't fault her for catering to a specific niche. That in itself is also a smart business move from her.
All that to say that I personally really like Kelsey, even though a lot of her advice doesn't apply to me. She seems to be a sweet and genuine person who's able to reflect on herself and her role on this platform. I was sad that she felt the need to justify why she calls herself an artist, no one should have to do that! So I hope this whole discussion didn't put her down too much. Same goes for Morgue, I just wish both of them the best in figuring out where they're going.
There are clearly a lot of things to think about with this subject and i think you added a LOT of good perspective. Great video, keep up the good work!
Thank you!! ❤️
I think on an interview Kelsey talked about how she wants to help artists grow with their finances.
While there are a lot of scammers on youtube, I highly disagree that Kelsey is one of them as she is very transparent about the business models.
Again, just because you spend a lot of time doing marketing doesn’t mean that you're not an artist/giving false statements. This is just part of the influencer-artist lifestyle.
Me, as an artist, think you make a great point and several comment here gather some useful benefits too. Whatever any type of art related is a dream. As long as i dont have yo calculated 😂 (which if that's turn to business it will be ,but let me enjoy the phase of creating content. And speaking of content, lol. It's 2024, online shop and market strategies are needed for almost everytype of business.)
Thank you for this vid, you earn new sub from meh! ❤
to be honest, i'm always wary about anyone trying to tell me/sell me on how to make money by following their advice. why would they willingly share the way they make their own money, and therefore inflating the niche of creators they belong in? but i can see how that closes my mind to listening to genuine advice because i think it's them being greedy. a fine line for sure
I just want to love bomb your video so let me point out all my favorite parts of your video
@@Foxi-id6cn Thank you so much, I really appreciate your comment! I’m glad to hear it was entertaining, I’ll keep putting the main points on screen!
I appreciate you sharing that you’re also a disabled artist! I’m not sure how much detail I plan on sharing in the future, but I will always mention my chronic illness because it’s a big part of who I am and I love meeting other artists like you who share my experiences ❤️
I just came across your channel and I absolutely love/100% agree with everything that you said in this video. I also truly appreciate your authenticity.
I agree that it’s important as an artist, to treat this as a business. Just like we need to know how to budget our income and expenses in our everyday lives, we also need to be intelligent about how we do it when it comes to pursuing our passions.
I did the opposite route as you. I got my BBA several years ago and *now* I’m learning how to draw and watercolour, something that I’ve wanted to learn since I was *much* younger.
On a separate note, where you mentioned your chronic condition, it might be a good idea to apply for the Disability Tax Credit as it reduces the amount of income tax that you need to pay. Being approved for that also qualifies you for the RDSP. There’s not a ton of information online about it, but either on cbc or cra’s websites, I saw information that beginning nect year, people who qualify for the dtc will also receive a $200/monthly payment, as those that experience chronic conditions and disabilities suffer more economic hardship than able bodied Canadians.
Keep up the great work Ruby!
I appreciate this video so much! You have made a lot of very well thought out points here. I have come away from this whole thing feeling like the mob of Kelsey bashers are offended that she doesn't fit their romanticized idea of what it's like to be a working artist. I've been a subscriber of hers for quite a while. While I'm not a fangirl or anything, I have appreciated her honesty around the reality of trying to reconcile being an artist with the reality of trying to be an adult that is able to make a living. When Kelsey puts out content that I am not interested in or doesn't apply to me, I JUST DON'T WATCH IT. I move on to some other video that provides value or interest to me.
I made the decision to remain a software engineer because being a full time artist isn't a viable option for me at this point in my life. But I value artists like you and others who continue to provide entertainment, inspiration and just bring a bit more beauty to the world. I've been disappointed in the fact that many of the people who have been mocking and overly critical just come off as "Mean Girls". Maybe I'm just old or something, but the whole thing just felt like a bunch of immature bullies ganging up on someone they don't understand. But the key word in how the critics have come off to me is "immature".
In any case, you got yourself a new subscriber. I wish you well in navigating your art career. I look forward to seeing what you post in the future!
Thank you so much! “Romanticizing” has been brought up a lot in these comments, I’d like to dig in more on that in the future! It’s definitely a good word to describe what’s happening with art business content.
Keeping art and careers separate is something many artists choose to do, and there’s a lot of power in that path! Thank you so much for this thoughtful comment and your support ❤️
this was such an interesting conversation! i think the critiques are super valid- i didn’t watch the original video and don’t think i will but your comments are super on point. but i do think openess is exactly what makes the online art community special, the sharing of resources and tips so i understand the frustration behind the amount of $$ being made from content creation and that not being disclosed.
i struggle with this dichotomy as well, content vs art. and it has definitely evolved over the years! in my first 2-3 years i did make most of my money from my art and relied very little on content revenue. but in the last year or so, because of big life changes and inflation in the us being so incredibly unbearable i have had to rely on sponsorships to fund making new products. youtube has also always been my #1 form of marketing in the sense of reaching new people who might like my stickers or work. i never considered the aspects that could be misleading as i try to be very genuine with what my job entails, and i am taking so much from this video with me moving forward!
at this point in my career, i am trying to focus more on making content about my art and my school work, because to be quite honest the business side of things for me is exhausting and NOT a one size fits all. i think kelsey’s videos are a great free resource, but like any free resource, its important to consume it critically and diversify your sources :D
@@palomathepeach I completely agree, I think sharing resources and wanting to see each other thrive makes the art community so special and amazing!
And it makes so much sense that the amount of art, content, and videos we make will change over time to adapt to our life and our needs. I think UA-cam is such a useful place to dedicate our time as creators, because it both markets our art AND creates more streams of income like ad sense and sponsors! It allows us to keep creating art and put food on the table.
And I fully agree, free resources are great, but it’s up to us to consume it responsibly and not expect it to fill ALL the gaps in our knowledge. Thank you so much for sharing your experience as a bigger creator in this space, I love your work and I’m so grateful for hearing your perspective!
How can you say the critiques are valid when you haven’t seen what they’re critiquing?
This was so well said and exactly my thoughts on the topic. You have so much potential for UA-cam, this was so well structured! Hello from a fellow Canadian ❤
@@flanzella That is so kind, thank you so much!! Hello fellow Canadian! ❤️
Is okay to be a content creator, but be honest. If most of your income don't come from art, you're not a full time artist. If anything, art is your side-hustle, if not just a hobby that makes a profit. Also, point to mention, Kelsey hast posted any new art in a while, in any socials or store. -- Compare with Inkwell, who also makes this income breakdown, and you see He is actually making art, he is actually making the breakdown from his artsales at artist alleys and conventions, he is posting new art on his store and making projects... and the main difference? Kayley sell courses and inkwll doesn't. And yes, he's also a content creator. But when your income comes primarly from art, then yes, he would make more claim to be called a full timeartist than her. -- So when she try to pitch people this live from your artwork lifestyle, buy my course to see how... yes, if you don't wanna claim scam, okay but at least recognize is fishy.
If you make art and have a channel based on art.. you are a full time artist. I teach my video production and graphic design students that 90% of your job isn’t doing art, it’s doing everything else to make the art happen. At most 10% is the process and creating, the rest is running the business, marketing, networking, accounting, self care, hiring, freelancing, writing contracts etc. if you make money based on art you ARE AN ARTIST 😊
Second controversial take, content is the enemy of art. They can exist together but they serve two different masters. Almost Ying and Yang but content is pure evil and art is the exhalation of the evil.
Oh and subscribing 😊
This is a super interesting video :D !!! I loved your analysis of what makes an "art business"
in the current state of social media tbh, it feels like there aren't really full time "artists" anymore, to own an art business is to be an artist of many trades, everything is an art tbh
These videos made me realize that to make a art business, content creation is our best friend. Even though we would rather just create art, but at the same time it does let us inspire people to do the same and create our little communities which is a positive thing. Wish me luck on starting youtube very soon! ;-;
I think you have some very good points to add to the conversation. Something I am wondering, is why content creation isn’t seen as an art form of itself. It can be very creative work with a clear vision and workflow. Your empty file is your clear canvas, where you can add clips, music, text and storyline. People who make UA-cam videos can have very distinct editing styles. Just some food for thought.
This whole thing comes across as valid fear and discontent at how the economy is rn and lashing out at whoever is in closest proximity, which I think is wrong. There’s a very familiar pattern of misogyny here, (a woman becoming the face of whatever thing people are mad about, getting the brunt of the attack, and much of the attack itself very revealing of the misogyny) and it’s so messed up. It’s 2024, for crying out loud, when will we learn? There’s an asinine tendency people have to gate keep what’s a ‘real artist’, and nit picking at who can call themselves a ‘full time artist’ is just another incarnation of it. It’s such a disingenuous critique because it requires such a lack of comprehension of that those words mean. Whether someone runs an art business, gets commissions, show and sell at galleries, is part of a studio, ALL of it requires labour other than ‘just making art.’ Say you’re a graphic designer working at a company. You’ll have to take meetings, communicate with client and colleagues, read and send emails, coordinating other people’s work and work flows, etc. None of that is ‘just making art.’ Okay, so what about being a gallery artist? Well, now you have to do a lot of networking and socializing, sell yourself, maybe even develop a sort of cult of personality. That’s not ‘just making art.’ Or it’s an artist who do own their own art business, but they’re lucky enough to be in a position to hire people to do the ‘non-art’ parts of the work. Well, they’re still a boss and need to manage people, pay their workers, and operate their business. Even if the last circumstance is when people are finally finally allowed the hallowed title of ‘full time artist,’ that’s terribly classist and stupid. It’s been long understood that a ‘full time artist’ is synonymous with ‘self employed artist.’ Why are we acting like this is suddenly a surprise? When people say ‘full time artist,’ they mean someone who own their own labour, or someone who works so much as an artist whether they work other jobs or not that we consider them a ‘full time artist’ as well. Like this video and many others, including Kelsey’s pointed out, A LOT of labour besides making the art itself goes into that.
I can’t speak on other artists since I’ve never seen their videos, but Kelsey certainly never obscured that. The ‘justification’ of all this hate she’s been receiving is literally the fact that she’s been transparent about the different kinds of labour required to be a full time artist and her various revenue streams, but somehow she’s also lying to her viewers about it? If she only posted videos of idyllic ‘day in the life’ or studio videos, people would be constantly asking her for business advice anyway! *And* accusing her of lying about what being a full time artist is really like. If her advice seems generic, it’s because depending on the art a person is trying to sell, business plan, situation, advice beyond things like ‘have good tags’ can vary wildly! Not to mention filming and editing videos IS ALSO ART. Don’t tell me we have regressed back to the ‘Is photography art?’ debate. It IS art to make a nice video that people will want to watch, to have clear audio that people are comfortable listening to. Many artists throughout history have needed patrons to survive, intentionally done what they could to attract them, what’s the difference between that and sponsorships and brand deals? Kelsey has never positioned herself as a guru, and never pushed her classes as a complete necessity that will solve all your problems, but tailored mentoring and access to community structured by her. She’s not even trying to sell as many courses as possible. The highest tier of mentorship she provides only has a few slots every month, a number small enough that she can actually give you the attention she is promising. That is the opposite of a grift. Also saying the titles of her videos are click-baity isn’t much of a critique. EVERYONE on youtube and online in general uses click bait to some extent. The tone of her videos is never ‘do this one weird trick and it’ll solve all your problems!’ It’s always been, ‘here’s what’s worked for me, here’s what didn’t, here’s my thoughts, good luck.’ Her advice, like anyone’s advice, won’t guarantee an art business will thrive, just give people a better chance.
The actual problem is that we’re in late stage capitalism. It’s fact that someone could do literally do everything ‘right’ and still not be able to sustain yourself on your art business alone. If we lived in a better world, this wouldn’t be the case. Our predicament is entirely man made, completely unnecessary, and thoroughly unjust. The real systemic change is hard, will take time, and doesn’t have a convenient ‘bad guy’ for us to take down. Even if there were, just taking down said bad guy wouldn’t immediately change our circumstances. Demonizing and yelling at Kelsey and other artists sharing what they know might give a temporary feeling of satisfaction or control, but it doesn’t solve anything. Real solutions means organizing, especially offline. Connect and work with your communities, unionize, vote in local elections, keep calling/writing/emailing your elected officials, including counsel/district/whatever-they’re-called-where-you-are members, protest - even protecting yourself by refusing to undersell your work means you’re also protecting other artists, because you’re not undercutting fellow artists.
Think about it - say Kelsey and all other artists who make educational content about running an art business take down all their content and stop posting. What changes? For those of you still saying, “No no, we just need her to change the title of her videos/call herself something else, not leave entirely,” you’re not looking for honesty, you’re grasping at control.
Yo i felt like commenting because i really appreciate your way of presenting points and opening this discussion. I think its really about transparency, while everyone can have their own preference on what their helps the most at any given time, its really about being upfront on who is this for, its limitations, scope and reach when making any video.
Granted, i feel its important to mention that, while personal responsibility is important, it is also a systematic problem of UA-cam (social media?) that everything is marketed for the widest reach possible to get the most clicks on a hypercompetitive space. Its kind of unfortunate but you also have to learn as a viewer to filter out what could be useful for you, which can be very frustrating because everything is presented as *the* thing you need.
I've experienced this a lot with creators focused more on improving digital art skills (because its what im focusing on learning and trying to enjoy rn) , where (imo) there are multiple ways, styles and fundamentals you can learn that could vary in effectiveness/enjoyability/preference depending on the person, but instead every single creators markets the way they learned as THE way. I can also see it when some types of advice tend to get repeated excessively at the cost of alternatives that could accommodate other goals/artists/backgrounds.
forgot to say, but best lucks with your art path on youtube!
That’s a really good point!! A few others have said something similar, that it’s a bit of “don’t hate the player, hate the game.” And that Morgue is angry at the people who are winning the game, instead of the game itself. It’s absolutely a systemic issue. Thank you for sharing your views! ❤️
Just letting you know I was listening to this video while doing dishes lol
I really like your breakdown of this issue and how respectful you are. I was really disappointed to see the hate that Kelsey was getting as well.
I've been a professional digtal artist for almost 30 years . My clients don't care what i call myself, they care that my pictures look good. I make pictures, videos, and i teach. I also help people work together. I only really care about supporting my family, supporting my friends (many of which i also work with ) and .. that my next image is better than the last one . Its thats process of improvement that i call being an artist.
Lastly , Most of my work involves collabration with others, and the best people to work with are compassionate and wise. No one wants to work with a d***. Morgue sounds like a d*** .
This video gave me a lot to think about and it’s interesting to hear the perspective of people just starting out in this field. I’ve been working in commercial art in various formats for almost 30 years. I started out in this industry where it was rare to have even a website to showcase your work. Times have definitely changed and social media is a fairly standard expectation and way to promote oneself, but it does eat up time. I was actually listening to this on my phone as I’m working on a mural at the moment, instead of filming footage of me working. When I first started out, it was simply getting the job done and having a printed portfolio to show to people that were interested. Now more than ever it’s about how invested people are and who you are, what you create, what you stand for, and even what you look like. The evolution of what it means to be a modern creative is absolutely wild in contrast over the last three decades. Personally, I’m not a fan of most how to earn this sort of money kind of videos because everyone’s path is ultimately different. I do appreciate the video you made, it was certainly thought-provoking and now makes me wanna make a video from an older artist perspective, because I can’t imagine how competitive and insane things will be in 30 more years.
I agree that putting a big number and saying they earn that is misleading and is what leaves so many of us frustrated after watching the video. Some of us just aren't cut out for content creation, god knows I tried to build an audience for over a decade.
Making a living as an artist is a privilege. Most artists not going to make it.
no idea why i am recommended this video cause I don't even watch art videos but the discussion is interesting
LOL I’m not sure either, but I’m glad to hear it was interesting anyways!!
Letting you know that I had your video on while creating art ❤ I think content creation via showing an art process is a niche of its own. Not only marketing your store but giving motivation and inspiration to other artists, so it's understandable that you could make money via stuff like sponsorships, its a diffrent audience than a buyer.
This is such a great discussion and I’ve learnt so much as someone who’s also learning and trying to become an art business eventually. I think your conclusions at the end are very good points and I’ll also not be calling myself an artist if one day I’m able to make any revenue out of content creation. And yes, putting out large numbers in video titles are also quite off putting because I think it can make quite a lot of people feel like failures if they’re not achieving those numbers… however, I also do like the honesty so I’m a little torn! I’d love to hear more of your insights on the art business industry as someone who’s learning how to grow on UA-cam!
Loved this video and actually watched it while cooking ! Def subscribing, I prefer your point of view.
This is very interesting, I'm in my third year freelancing/contract concept artist, I only worked for individuals and indie studios so far no AAA just yet, working towards it. However I plan to start my own UA-cam channel in January, however I will focus on teaching art and concept art plus videos about mental health and nutrition, specifically brain nutrition. As I was medically discharged from the army for PTSD, didn't receive any help from gov had to figure out how to deal with my trauma myself, so feel I am in a unique position to help others. I will say that when I first came out the army I studied sales and marketing, and do see a few marketing methods learnt in some art UA-camrs, some are somewhat unethical let's say. The plan for my channel is to teach people not just art fundamentals and design but also how to get into work as a concept artist, as it is a legit career, I don't plan to teach how to do youtube etc... You did a great job on this video, it was well balanced giving perspective of both sides.
Just dropped u a sub. All the best for the channel. I enjoy channels that have a strong personal voice and style like Gawx art. I feel like there’s enough teaching art channels but not so much on just sharing the journey they took on a piece while navigating life. I’m an illustrator from NZ and am trying to find time to put into a channel but haven’t settled on what I want to share yet. All the best for your channel dude 🤙🏾😁
@@inquizitive1 Thank you! Yeah I plan to start recording soon but will start uploading in January. 😁
I rly like kelsey's videos!! They helped me grapple with the fact that being a successful artist meant marketing yourself all the time. It's a hard pill to swallow but I think she's super transparent about it.
@@fiirebug i’m glad to hear your perspective!! I definitely found the one video I mentioned, ‘how to launch your art career’ super helpful and emphasized the reality of art business, the marketing and business side that a lot of people ignore.
I understand some of the criticisms about her content, but I do think she has valuable things to say and I’ll always appreciate the information she provided that helped me get where I am today
Honestly I feel like most of this “scandal” was a whole lotta nothing. Maybe there’s a specific person here or there who actually does scam their customers, but most of this is just people getting too riled up over semantics.
To clarify; I consider it a scam when money is exchanged and a product or service is never delivered or the quality is poor. Ex: that one artist a few years ago (forgot his name) that set up his own private subscription service for exclusive content but then never delivered while taking people’s money that entire time. And when people asked he would throw tantrums on social media, block people, not allow refunds, and iirc even took money for commissions during that time too again without ever delivering. So to me THAT was a scam, but a couple somewhat misleading video titles isn’t.