Dojo Talks: Endgames
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2024
- IM Kostya Kavutskiy, IM David Pruess, and GM Jesse Kraai discuss the importance of studying endgames, which endgames to study, and much more in this episode of Dojo Talks.
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Jesse's point about panicked middlegame play (due to endgame discomfort/fear) is brilliant and something I've seen a lot.
I just broke 1700 rapid, and I think endgames are a best kept secret for chess improvement. Learning technical openings and technical endgames will bookend your chess to make you rock solid, pending no blunders and solid positional improvement in the middle game. I’m now happy to trade down into favourable endgames of which my opponents have no idea - I am also able to formulate plans (I know what to do) and execute my plan where again my opponents typically have no clue. I’m almost done Silman’s endgame manual on Chessable (thanks Kostya!) and it has been unbelievably helpful. I think having that confidence is also a game changer … my endgame accuracy went up from 70% to 80%!
What path did you take after finishing Silman’s course? I’m thinking about reading “mastering endgame strategy” which also Kostya recommended
Still at the beginning but wanted to give my 2 cents. I can honestly say that learning bishop/knight and 2 bishops have revolutionised my vision on the board. I'm at the point now where I can start from scratch in either of those and reliably mage, but it wasn't too long ago where I simply could not grasp it at all.
However what they gave me was a. A better sense of how pieces can work together, b. A better vision of what the knights and bishops cover in a position and c. A better understanding of the importance of using your king. Neither of those mates are possible without actively using your king in a super aggressive way.
It's also helped my other endgames in the sense that using the king and a piece to push the opponents king to the edge is almost always the correct play.Yes I've never had that specifically in a game (just a week ago someone resigned against me right before I could promote to a knight), but my endgame understanding has improved generally thanks to my practise of those two mates.
A really interesting discussion from an excellent channel. I can't wait to read Ben Johnson's book as he never really gets to give his opinion that much when interviewing (host etiquette, I suppose).
In terms of Endgames, I like the Silman approach of studying material by level. I would rather approach endgame study from the large to the small, as in covering the material that you are likely to see first (basic mates, K+P endgames, rook endgames) than obscure stuff like bishop vs knight. I don't play much these days, but if that ever did come up during a game they can have the half point and I'll head to the bar.
I like the point about tiredness and psychology during endgame play. I think that for those willing to invest time in the endgame, particularly K+P and rook endgames and tactics there is a definite potential edge to be found there.
It terms of finding the endgame boring/interesting. I found that this comes and goes, so when the endgame feeling comes around then it's a good idea to go with...the mojo(!) and study it when the interest is there. You are much more likely to learn material when the interest is there, so take the ebb and the flow and study when the mood arises.
Good stuff
David makes an excellent point about embracing one aspect of endgames to make endgames more fun, you often just need an “entry”.
What i've always been looking for is good resources on practical endgames and endgame plans. You have principles like in opposite color bishop endgames you need to create a passed pawn on both sides of the board to win. Exploiting that the bishop probably can't defend both of them. Having that knowledge now you can start playing with that plan and goal in mind early on and not allowing your opponent to trade everything on one side of the board. You have a plan and you know what you need to stop from your opponent.
The problem for me is that in many endgame positions I don't have *any* knowledge of what practical setups I should be looking to create to make things difficult for my opponent. I'm still thinking in terms of staying solid, having pieces on good squares, not letting the opponent attack etc and just waiting for my opponent to blunder. I'm not proactively putting my opponent to a strategic test and trying to set up winning positions because I don't really know what that winning position looks like. Equally, I also don't know what I need to stop my opponent from doing so he cannot reach a drawn position.
Being able to put into words what the winning plans are in advantageous endgames with 8+ pawns/pieces still left on the board and what your opponent should look to do strategically to get the draw is basically impossible unless you are told/taught the core concepts. It's just too complex on the fly without a prior information so all you can do is baseline back to the concepts of keeping solid and attacking your opponents weakest point. Even though this thinking could often be wrong in endgames like for example the opposite bishop example where you need to keep your win condition alive at all costs.
Perhaps a "What to do: Endgame Edition" is in order? :)
Roger that! Ask and ye shall receive :)
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There should be a fancy Latin word for "fear of chess endgames".
Scaccotardophobia
Rapid 😂
These dojo talks are such gold
Awesome job, guys
"So much pain it was just glorious." That got a hearty lol. The epitome of the serious chess player. :-)
I wonder what chess playing cognitive scientists like Can Kabadayi and Chris Chabris say about the effect of endgame study on overall play.
Thank you for this video! Im 1750 rapid and I've never heard anything of the lucena before. I'm sure this will help me
I just want to restate the great point David made, many well annotated GM collection game books stop with "white has an advantage here and a winning endgame", this is certainly one of the reasons while we are so endgame aversive. You can get a great feel for convoluted kingside attacks by going over those collections, but no endgame intuition is gained this way.
Re theoretical endgames: I’m a 1500 and can do the knight and bishop checkmate eyes closed now.
The weird thing is I see an improvement in my play after spending hours learning the K v NB endgame because I see piece coordination way better
2 weeks ago I held an IM in a blitz game over the board : repeated when a rook up because I had 2 seconds left . I have Pruess’ lessons and Jesse’s old school calculation suggestions to thank for that
I think your (J's) comment on studies is important. For us beginners (especially the older folks) we need to review and practice and slowly add more complicated positions. The weakness of Silman (well, not really a weakness, it's not what he is doing with the book, I get that) is that there aren't a hundred tests for each chapter after the first couple. Combining elements of past material, etc. is important. I've been looking for an endgames book like some of the tactics / mate in x books but for endgames and haven't found one yet.
The point about endgame fear is so true at my level (1600 FIDE), I’ve saved many positions because my opponent was terrified of theoretical endings so pushed too hard in the middlegame.
Yes!
10:18 - 11:00 Boss man just called me out without having ever interacted with me in any capacity!
Aagaard just co-authored a new book with endgame studies that are "practical". Endgame Labyrinths is the name of it. Ben Johnson had the author on the pod the other day
Ok I'm not trying to oversimplify but here we go; for 95-99% of the chess playing community get SILMANS ENDGAME COURSE, do the first 5 chapters and redo them 3 or 4 or even 5 times and play classical rated otb** games.... in a year or two Your endgame knowledge and confidence Will be unrecognizable from where you started*.... The end. You're welcome.
You talked about starting a beginner off with endgames. What do you recommend first teaching someone who only knows the rules of chess? I tried sparring ladder mate with two rooks vs lone king with a family member and was surprised by how difficult it was. Is there something even simpler to start with?
This depends based on the person in question, but in general I try to get people playing as soon as possible. Some kind of challenge that may be at the right level. They get all their pieces and you get only pawns. Or “farmers and piggies.” Or you play normally, but to win they only need to capture one of your non-pawn pieces. Or an endgame checkmate, like the example you gave. Q+R could work if someone is struggling with 2Rs. Come up with a challenge along those lines that matches the beginner’s attention span and interest. And make adjustments quickly if you get the feeling you may have missed the mark.
Yeah, the theoretical endgame information, whether we choose to dig into it or not, is at least readily available (most of it is even laid out by rating in Kostya's recommended book by Silman). But suppose there are a bunch of pawns and a few pieces on the board - then what do we do? How can we get just a tiny drop of that "Magnus sense" to know the right plans and how to execute them? I remember, for example, having a bishop versus my opponent's knight in an open position and totally lost, even though I'd heard "on the streets" that such a bishop likely had better chances.
We discuss and refer to these kinds of positions as "playable endgames, practical endgames", endgames you'd find in "endgame strategy", etc
What exactly distinguishes a "theoretical " endgame from a "practical" one?
You could get the Lucena position in a game! Or you could aim for it.
Theoretical endgames have few pieces on the board and are "solved". Practical endgames are not
Theoretical positions are the ones from certain books like (Dvoretsky, de la villa's '100 endgames you must know', Simans Endgame course) lucena, philidor defense etc. King+Pawn vs King, Bishop+pawn vs Bishop.
Those are the ones that you should know by heart, the ones if you see such a position, you immediatly know the evaluation and how to win/hold the draw.
Those are like multiplication tables in math: You should know by heart what is 3x7, 5x6, 2x4, ...
Practical endgames are the ones were you try to simplify into one of the theoretical ones, the ones that are advanatgous for you. For example you might have a position with each side a knight, a bishop, a rook and 2 pawns. You might see a way to trade into a drawn rook endgame and another option to trade into a winning pawn endgame. They are like multiplication of larger numbers that you break down into smaller numbers like
13x5 --> 10x5 + 3x5
The moment when the conversation was becoming interesting (with relevant disagreements), it ended
Speaking of fun - has anyone played Words w Friends or UnBlock Me? Those games have a simple trumpet sound signaling success which is oddly gratifying, even to me (a grizzly 50yo tired parent).
Also on the topic of fun - my 6yo lives the stars on Lichess Basics, teaching her how the pieces move.
I dunno - some out-of-box ideas for ya! 🤣🤷🏻♂️🙏
Awesome! Thanks! It’s wonderful when a grizzly tired parent manages to pull an idea out from somewhere :-)
I think the out of print book by Sherevsky “Endgame Contours” is just as good as his book “Endgame Strategy”.
Yes, Endgame Contours is the Russian title, in English it is a 2 vol set called Mastering the Endgame by Shereshevsky and Slutsky. He breaks down the endgames by the openings they came from. Fantastic Books, and I do believe they are out of print.
What's an end game? 😂
I'm an Endgame God.... not!
It's nice to think that you don't need to memorise every single '100 Endgames You Must Know"! Thanks.