The Jimmy Diresta Band Saw Restoration, Part 6: Top Wheel Shaft Removal - That was EASY!
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Jimmy Diresta Band Saw Restoration 6: Top Wheel Shaft Removal - That was EASY! This one went a lot better than the first shaft - some heat and pressure was all it took to remove this tapered shaft from the hub of the giant 48" band saw wheel. The pressure was applied using my home made portable hydraulic press.
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Before using the shaft as template maybe put it in the other hub to see if it actually fits?
I always jump when a tapered part pops loose in the press. Even when I'm watching it on video.
Ah yes, the BANG! of happiness from an assembly you've been fighting all day long.
I am not convinced the other shaft was stuck by your turning the nut the wrong way. I suspect it was stuck regardless from the tightening each time the saw was turned on for a hundred years.
I agree. There is no way that the 1" thread and a soft nut would pull it up tighter than heat and a press.
Also, if it actually DID tighten it, then it would have broken the rust bond (which it most certainly didn't).
@@johncoops6897 good point
not uncommon to have one fight you while the second one practically falls off if you sneeze ( or fart )...
Me neither. I think it was stuck but good when Kieth got it.
As a Machinist who started in a shop that originally opened in the mid 1800's, I was taught a lot of the "Old Ways". Everything I have seen you attempt I have in some way or another done before. In the Mid West, for many years on my own, I was well known for scraping / Flaking and alignment (Hand and power), I've worked Babbitt, 1/2 & 1/2, cast iron, bronze, turcite, etc. When I started, the shop had no OD grinders. I was taught the art of turn, file & polishing shafting up to 12" OD & 24 feet long. They did have a 1903 overhead belt drive lathe they had converted for polishing long shafts with a belt sanding device mounted to the cross slide. The idea of you indicating the taper of the 2nd shaft on your lathe is a way to start the fitting, but you need to go a bit further or it may loosen up over time, even with torqueing. After you turn your taper, it will have the tooling marks leaving high & low spots. Leave the taper a bit larger than your finished taper Diameters end to end. First using a mill bastard file, smooth the taper. (After each pass clean the file with a file brush) 2nd Blue or lamp black the taper of the shaft and run it in the tapered bore. 3rd, File the high spots in the lathe again that you find on the shaft taper and repeat until you have the correct full length fit. Do a final hand polish with emery cloth and you're good to go. The taper ID's & shafting will never be identical from one part to another, especially on aged machinery that were hand machined and fit.
What about lapping the shaft?
Or, would doing so create a different fitment problem?
@@tomp538 you could but it would take longer. Turn filing polish with bluing would take less time to take down the high spots of the machining.
You never see one of those hydralic presses because they are usualy made from "scrap" pieces and when done the pieces are disasembled and used for something else after a while.
and when u need it again you asemble a new one from what you currently have laying around.
Don't you just love the way they rounded off the crown of the shaft and scallop the top of the nut. Simply to make it look nice.
I would have left that on, bigger surface for the 'steady' of the jack!
Brilliant little suspended press adapter. SURPRISE! When that thing happens that you expect to happen because you set it up to happen that way and it should happen, yet when it happens, and you don't know if it will or exactly when it'll happen, yet when it happens it still shocks the crap out of you, because again, you never REALLY know IF it'll work or not. 9:27 ua-cam.com/video/vKSRoxRSeIo/v-deo.html
"And that gentlemen, is how we do that."
Read in the voice of Tom Hanks. 😁
Since you are going to setup to do the one taper I would just go ahead and do both shafts. It will be nicer in the end.
That type of arrangement is common on machinery repaired in the field. My uncle's shed was chuck full of them, various sizes, formats. The sky is the limit.
Great job, Keith! Now, do the next guy a favor and mark those hubs showing the direction to turn the nut for removal. Thanks!
I have a portable press similar to yours that I made about 6 years ago for removing pins from hydraulic cylinders. It’s funny how many different people come to the same type of conclusion when faced with similar situations
As Ecclesiastes says: "There is no new thing under the Sun."
Biologists would call this "convergent evolution," i.e., two different organisms evolve a similar phenotypic solution to a similar environmental pressure.
Just thinking,...if you could mount a slotted receiver at the top two bars, you could slide the jack upside down into the receiver so it would not fall when the shaft, bearing, bushing, etc. pops loose. It would allow the placement of part protection at the bottom of the jack without trying to hold everything in place. Of course if it were placed in a horizontal position it might be another bucket of worms.
Great solution, appreciate your time and effort to make interesting and entertaining videos for us
A little wet and cool here on the north side of Houston, but a good Thanksgiving. Hope yours was the same.
When I’m faced with a stuck pin I just take a pencil and draw it out!
Nice job Keith, there is one thing you may want to add to your portable press that holds the jack. You can make it out of a small piece of channel or two pieces of angle. Cut a “U” in the back/web of the channel that is just large enough for the threads on the jack extension screw to slide into and weld onto the area where you set the jack too pad. The pad on the screw will hold the jack while you pump it into place and when the piece you are pressing releases. This could save you from dropping the jack and damaging the piece you are working on or yourself. I hope I explained it clear enough.
Take care,
John
This is what i said in the last vid, glad it worked
The press is a variation on a theme of hub pullers that have the hook ends or the bolts into the hub, again a useful tool.
They give us boys from the rural parts of America a bunch of guff about the way we talk and our unique approaches to problem solving. I’m from Georgia too and proud to see that unique tool that you used to get that shaft out.
Thanks for your gentile manner and ingenious approach to problem solving.
Is there a bad check valve in that bottle jack?
Neither of my two bottle jacks "push back".
I don't know for certain, but that may be part of overload protection. The push back lets you know you have reached a limit? I had a floor jack that would do that, but only if you put more on it than it was rated for and at that point you could hear the overload valve bypassing back to the reserve. Better that than catastrophic failure, and serves as a reminder to never trust the jack alone to hold up the work should you have to get under it.
Some of that reverse threading could be much along the lines of Chrysler's thinking. They used to use left handed threads on lugs just on one side of the vehicle and not the other.
That was too easy! The other one was worth alot more content! Haha The press will come in handy I'm sure on these big old projects in the future. Thanks for the vids!
many a man feels he is blazing a New Trail only to finally look down and see he is following a well trodden path....
getting your work done is what is satisfying and how it gets done is by using the Most Special Tool...
your Brain!!
Problem solving, whilst in bed, is the cause of many a sleepless night 😉😉👍👍👌
I have a old steel hub from a wagon wheel. ran over it with excavator though, kinda oval now
*- [KIETH] Do you suspect, that "back in the day", shop folk took burning coal that fired the boiler producing the steam to drive the overhead pulley wheels to run this particular machine, and placed those burning coals around the axle collar, and then wait ten to twenty minutes to hear it to go clunk on the floor while they were doing something else productive?*
*- I can see it and hear it in my mind's eye.*
*- By the time they got back to problematic pain and the but the "pulley axle work" it was as cold as stone.*
I would put that puller in a peach basket and reckon on adding spacers and other bits to the basket over the years.
Are you ever gonna get back to working on the bandsaw and finishing it?
Well done, nice video. Looking forward to the next ones.
Is there any reason not to make a nice hand operated valve lever for a hydronic jack? Small enough so it does not get broken But big or long enough to operate by hand without that stupid notch cut into the jack handle. 50 years of fumbling with turn valves. Just noticed what a pain they are watching the video . I love when stuff pope’s apart like that. Everybody jumps except the guy with the torch.
The whole idea controlling the valve with the handle is so you don't have to lean 2 feet down to tighten/loosen the valve. You are already at the end of the handle (pumping it), so moving the far end about 6" down to the valve is a LOT easier than getting down on hands and knees to spin some valve. Also, the jack is usually underneath a vehicle, and that is NOT something you want to be reaching underneath to lower it.
The most annoying thing about those jacks is the 2-piece handle. I fixed mine by drilling a hole and fitting a split pin so it wouldn't fall apart like Keith's handle did.
If that was me I would have been beavering away on that left hand nut without checking because I knew it was the same as the other one!
Keith
If you don't have a shaft to measure the taper, have you ever used CerroSafe casting metal to make a exact match for the inside of the taper (melts at 160-180F, when it cools it shrinks a few thousanths for easy removal, and 1 hour later it re-expands back to within a couple thousanths of the exact size of the cavity) Reuse-able and not very expensive. I bought mine from Brownells, if I recall a pound is around $30.
John
Not sure if CerroSafe is intended for cannon size chambers. It might work if there are no pits in the bore but would probably require 5 or 6 pounds of casting metal for something that big.
Great job Keith! Happy to see this went smoothly! That portable press is pretty clever! Really enjoying your videos!
How’s you arm Keith? I do hope your recovery is going well!
You are correct Keith, your are not the first person to build a portable press arraignment. Nor was I when I built my first one years back for a job I was doing. However that is the kind problem solving thinking that allows us to fix large complicated things with relatively simple tools. Well done. Thus far this has been a fun series to watch. Cheers.
Built a similar press to pull a 6ft dia. fan impeller off of a 3 15/16" shaft.
@@millwrightrick1, that’s a beast! Lol
Thinking outside the box! I have the identical Craftsman toolbox, without the center section though. We both have same problem of stuffing stuff on top shelve, preventing closure of the lid.
well done as allways! but that 7:28 make me lol, happens to me too....
I bet you dreamt the solution to the problem either in your dream or while in bed before falling asleep!
Great result ! Don't forget to clean and paint, your Mobile Jacking Frame !
Sign it, Patent it !
Mobile Jacking Frame
KR Fabrications 2021
Awsome !
Pure logic: on the bottom wheel, the shaft drives the wheel (needs left-hand thread); the bottom wheel drives the top wheel via the blade; the top wheel drives it's own shaft (admittedly, not much resistance here). So, logically, the top wheel gets a right-hand thread.
See after all the hell you went through on the other one to equal things out this one had to be easy..
And since you are pouring the bearings in place, who cares if you have to take something off the OD of the shaft. - Looks like you got this one on the run, (BTW, I'm sure you are ahead of me on this one, but a little prussian blue of the other hub and you will see for sure that the tapers are the same so you will be able to make the other shaft no sweat.)
Keep 'um coming bro. It's looking good now.
It's not counterintuitive. For the bottom wheel, the power comes from the shaft, thru the wheel, and to the blade. For the top wheel, the power comes from the blade, thru the wheel, and to the axle. Power moves in opposite directions for each wheel. So the threads for the retaining nuts should be opposite too.
add some chains or some guard to keep your jack from exploding out...anything to stop an accident is worth the time and cost ...
i seen many similar ways of removing stuff done...whatever works is how it used to be done ...
LIke your press! Well done.
Well done, just the way it's supposed to come apart.
I have fabricated a similar mobile press in the past.
A manure side spreader had a 1,5 meter diameter gear that was stuck on the shaft and it needed to come apart.
Was tapered AND keyed on the shaft and rusted in place.
Took alot of penetrating fluid, heat and pressure to get that one off.
I've also had to threaten them (similar items) with a love tap from an 8 lb sledge. Moisture, marine environment, over a long period of time had the two parts rust jacked together. The shock of a hammer blow was what finally did the trick. The amount of loss due to the rust was hardly measurable, and after some clean up the parts were able to be reassembled and used without issues. I started thinking of anti-seize as "mechanic's prozac" (" ... it's your friend!") during those days. It spares you the trauma of those dramatic, sometimes violent, separations.
A turd hearse is one of those machines that sees little love unless it breaks down, I understand that struggle all too well.
That must have been one of those jobs that you're glad is over and hopefully you never have to do it again.
@Wayne Coke cant remember how much tons the jack was rated for but indeed constant pressure.
We already left it overnight once and the second night it gave way and finaly broke loose.
Lots of heat and pressure did the trick
@@infoanorexic 50th hand free machine that sat in a field for around a decade filled with chicken manure for about 75%.
Didnt fancy shoveling out all that much, after the repair work we just spread that stuff out and it smelled real bad haha
Great video Keith, excellent job, keep'um coming..
Very clever design for the portable Press!
Okay, I had to change my pants after that shaft let loose. I'm really enjoying this series of videos. Thanks Keith.
The bottom shaft was made by Chrysler and the top shaft was made by Ford. 🙂
Love the portable press and you have a right to be VERY proud of it. I foresee several of these being made by viewers.
Well done as usual.
Glad you shared that.I am going to make 1.could have used 1 many times.
Use a similar setup to pull propellers of marine prop shafts - also taper fitting but with a key.
I made a very similar one to push bushes out of by excavator arm, and those jacks will also work on their side if you have the pump on the bottom.
Keith, why do you think it is better to use a taper attachment then turn the shaft between centers, slightly shifting the center in the tailstock backwards or forwards? It's old and classic and extremely precise way to turn such tapers.
Loving this bandsaw video series….
I really liked you adhoc hanging hydraulic press idea. 💡 The kind of thing you put in the memory bank for future use.
When you make the other shaft and nut put a line in the middle of the flats to indicate left hand thread.
It might help someone years down the road.
Just stamp "LH" rather than some obscure markings.
@@johncoops6897 Most any LH thread bolt or nut I saw had a line marking not a letter stamping that's why I made the suggestion.
@@RichieCat4223, just like the fittings on your acetylene tanks for your cutting torch. I know if there’s a line scribed into a nut that somethings up!
@@Hoaxer51 And that means LH thread.
need to patent that press and start making them before some one else does !!!!!!! nice job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the bottom, the shaft drives the wheel, hence left hand thread. On the top, the wheel drives the shaft, so right hand thread.
There’s my 2 cents worth. (minus your discount, I owe ya a dollar)
Great Job Keith!
I just want to say that I was wrong. I was emphatically convinced that both shafts would be LH'd because they were on the same side of the saw and turning in the same direction. RH threaded nuts **are** cheaper and I guess I was thinking like an engineer and not an accountant.
I stand here, on this day CORRECTED!
Thanks Keith, love the channel.
Over the years I've come up with many versions of the hydraulic jack press to move stubborn things.
Great video. Loved the shaft popping out under hydraulic power. Cheers from Canada
Removing the clutch hub on my old Triumph motorcycle, which is on a taper, involved tightening the puller as much as you dare and leave it for 24 hours after which you would generally find the puller and hub laying on the floor. This was back in the 60s when applying a heat source was not available to the average amateur mechanic. But I often wonder whether it was the change in ambient temperature overnight that was the final encouragement that did the job.
HI Keith:
I am surprised that you don't have a 3/4 drive socket set. I have a complete Snap-On 3/4 " to 3" set with a ratchet and 4' breaker bar .
I have had that set since the late '60's.
I love those "hot" wrenches. I have used hot/cold procedures for a long time.
WE had a 100 ton press, air over hydralic, and it was not uncommon to max out that press. I have had that press just about jump off the floor, and it was bolted to the concrete,... when shafts, etc finally let go! It will raise your blood pressure when that happens!
Great video as usual!
Best Wishes!
Gary
Masterful command of material dynamics. Science, creatvivty and experience for the win!
Learning from our past is a given, remembering another , clutch fan hub (left hand) after you beat it to death.
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back! Ha Ha or LOL whichever, it was funny and really ingenious. Good deal.
good job keith
Hi Keith,could you bolt the hydraulic jack upside down to the top of your press then it wouldn't need you to balance it setting it up?
The last axle episode was a disaster because you never applied enough heat for long enough to expand that big hub. I thought with your experience you would have realized that. I have 3 portable puller cages/ frames different sizes so I can use my Porta press with.
An old machinist taught me a good trick long ago, and that was, when removing stubborn press fit shafts or fitting press fit sleeves spit on the part your heating and when the spit rolls around like a ball bearing your heat is near the mark.
I thought the same thing about not enough heat. It's possible they heated the hub when they originally installed it to make it even tighter when it cooled.
My grandfather taught to me when pressing a shaft with threads, break the nut, back off several threads then hydraulically press it out so it does not foul the ancient treads. As for spray painting, especially for young people, unless you have a painting booth, paint outside if weather condition permits. An appropriate mask is very important because your lungs are very sensitive and so important for good long healthy life especially if you might expect to live another 70 years. Very impressive project. Subscribing. Looking forward to your next installment excellently produced. Thank you for your sharing. Are you going to use this saw in your own shop? Are you going to build an extention to your shop to accommodate the oversized bottom wheel. Again, great video.
Our hero triumphs in the end. I wish the first one had gone so smoothly. But the drill work was quite the thing to see! Nicely done, sir. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing 👍
Glad you found that "Easy" button, we're all the time losing ours 😁😆
The more I think about it, I think the left handed nut was overkill. I might buy it if it were a keyed straight shaft, but a castle nut would have held. I believe the taper was to prevent turning of course, but a right handed castle nut would have worked. A mill or a drill press doesn't have left handed threads, and they run in both directions.
The threading is entirely intuitive...to an engineer or physicist.
Hope you had a good Thanksgiving and a blessed weekend.
As you know it helps a ton if you know how a piece is designed and assembled. You didn't know weather the shaft was tapered or driven by key or some other way.
Assembly can be so much easier.
After screwing replacing the bearings on the arbor for my tablesaw, I feel a lot better about missing a left hand thread!!
You may want to thether the jack to your device .
The bottom axis drives the wheel, the top wheel drives the axis.
It's the first press I've seen like that. Great job.
One wheel will have right hand threads and the other will have left hand threads because; one wheel will have the driving torque applied through the shaft from the power source (driving wheel) the other (upper) wheel will have the torque applied through the blade (driven wheel) to the outside of the wheel requiring left hand threads for the top and right hand threads for the bottom. Or vice versa, but you get the idea.
Art
That's kinda just a giant hydraulic pulley puller, love it!
Wouldn't the spray welding give you a better alloy bearing surface on the shaft, more resistant to wear for long-term?
I am wondering about the shaft in the pully. How stuck is it.
This is not counterintuitive at all... If... you just think a bit :)
Bottom wheel is driven by the axle, so nut is left hand so that axle will tighten it.
Top wheel iz driven by the saw, bu the wheel itself, so wheel is one that tighten the nut, so nut must be right hand.
That tool is really a giant gear/bearing puller where the gear/wheel is pulled from the shaft but remains the stationary part.
Here is a thought, Could you have taken the hydraulic press at the other shop apart and then slipped the wheel over the uprights and reassembled the head and then pressed the shaft out, and yes a lot of work, just a thought?
The bottom wheel needed to be left hand thread because the shaft was driving the wheel. The top wheel was opposite because in that case the wheel was driving the shaft.
Also could the reason for the holes he mentioned in the last video just be removing a small amount of material for balancing the weight?
Left and right threads make sense, that bottom wheel is driven by the shaft while the top wheel drives the upper shaft
Not only can you always be unlucky, sometimes it's very easy to have luck!
I'm not sure if the other one would have come apart easily if you turned the nut the other way. It looked like someone had been mucking around with it before
As they say: If Mohammed cannot go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed.
My Jack has that same silly two part handle. I got tired of chasing one half or the other and just welded the two halves together.
I bet every heavy truck workshop has a press like that for pressing out steer axle kingpins, not as pretty though!
If you heat the rod it will get skinny and longer. The hub will have the hole get larger. Best of both worlds in this mode.
So what were the blank holes for in both hubs???????
Keith I think you might be being a bit too hard in yourself. Its the power is mean to tighten the left hand bolt, then maybe it was always stuck?
PET THE CATS AND DOGS, GREAT VIDEO, TELL EVERYBODY HELLO...
only change I'd think about making to that press is using a chain or something to tether the jack so it can't go ballistic when something lets go
If it was me I would spray weld the shaft and keep the shaft the original size. Oh yeah why’s it may be easier just to turn it but to keep it the same size it started at have a lot to do with old equipment
If you had to drill that shaft. Could you have blocked the hub on one side, and filled with lead, and get an idea of the tapper?
Wow, that really made me jump when the shaft let go 🤣😂🤣.