The Jimmy Diresta Band Saw Restoration, Part 7: The Main Casting
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- The Jimmy Diresta Band Saw Restoration, Part 7: The Main Casting
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The "core" sand might be sandblasting sand.
I was going to say the same thing...At least the very black shiny coarse "sand" on top. Looks like silicone carbide sandblasting grit. The brown sand underneath could be original, who knows? Not saying the color has a lot to do with it. I have original castings that has black sand, but it's not as coarse or shiny as what is seen here.
*Perhaps the steel rods were used to position the central sand core.*
@@TgWags69 I was thinking the same thing , the black sand looks like crushed garnet which is used extensively in sandblasting.
No matter where the sand came from it's gotta go!
@@argee55 ...Why?
Don't worry about the lack of videos, just make sure you get better.
Good presentation on how the casting would have been made. The foundry men often used chaplets to support heavy and large cores and prevent the core from floating which you may be seeing on the flat surfaces. My customers always complained about them. The cores were most likely made with a binder similarly to linseed old.This would require a very large core oven to bake them for hours and the heat of the metal would make them much harder. The hole appears to be on the cope side and a piece of sand floated to the highest point. Gas hole are smooth and sand holes appear rough like the sand, shrink holes normally appear on the cope side near were the riser would have been and they would appear looking like a jagged mountain valley. Again thank you for this presentation and i enjoy your videos as they remind me of my working days.
I ran planers for 31 years. The smallest was a 2ft X 8ft long table. The biggest was a 6ft wide X 40ft long table. Mostly Grey's and Rockford's. Would have machined that piece in 3 set-ups, on an open side planer. Also did our own planer restoration and repairs.
Keith,
There all kinds of castings being made today that dwarf this bandsaw. Castings for slow speed diesel engines are done below grade. This reduces the overall height of the infrastructure needed to pour into the casting. Large castings for ships range from anchors, to rudder horns, to stem castings, the stern castings include everything from the stern tube to the leading portion of the rudder. The sand for today's castings are far more advance making them far stronger and better able to withstand the heat and the physical properties to withstand the pour.
That is not to there are not issues. I've seen anchors with porosities that you could feed twelve inches of wire into them. We found bondo on those ancors to cover areas where the sand collapsed during the pour. Unfortunately bondo on an anchor doesn't last long once rhe anchor is dropped the first time.
I wonder if the manufacturer had portable machines to machine the areas that you have questions about? When ships are built there is a group know as outside machinists that bore the stern tubes and rudders. They also are responsible for preparing and aligning machinery. It would be interesting to know how they would approach the machining of the bandsaw.
I really appreciate your videos. They bring back memories, both good and bad.
Bob
Out of curiosity, are you talking about large castings being made somewhere in the US, or in South Korea or some other place with a ship building culture?
@@lwilton Large slow speed diesel engine castings are being done in South Korea, Japan, and China. I believe they are being done in Poland. In the late 1990s and early 2000s they were being done in Spain. Medium speed engine castings are being done in those countries as well as Germany.
Large steel castings for ships parts are being done prmarily in the Far East, and in Europe.
Anchors are cast in the Far East, Europe, and were being made in the US at least into the early 2000s.
Large propeller castings are made in those same areas . As far as I know they are still being made in the US.
I retired in 2009 and have not kept up with the current sources of equipment. By the time I retired the numbers of US suppliers was getting fewer.
My experience was limited to commercial ships, specifically tankers. I cannot comment on sources of equipment for naval vessels.
Bob
It is fascinating that Keith brings out the industrial strength experts to make this the best comments section around. Thanks for contributing.
*55
Zinc, vitamin D3 and Vitamin C every day!
I would imagine that the machining was done with a shaper, since trying to move the workpiece on a plane bed would have been impractical given its weight and size.
Yes, with a shaper you could pretty much have it sitting on the floor, if the shaper is bolted down well.
That is my thought as well
Definately a shaper job, I have a small shaper that could do the required on that casting, it is designed to be mountesd directly on the work piece.
@@nigelleyland166 Either what you describe or a vertical shaper, you tube has videos of smaller ones ua-cam.com/video/LjgXr60BIOg/v-deo.html . But I found one on face book that could have done the job.
that's exactly what I was thinking as soon as he said it, seems like a shaper would have been much simpler than a planer and I'm curious as to why he thinks planer.
7:08 A solid profile with the same shape as the hollow one will always be stronger than the hollow one and not also not susceptible to buckling failure modes. If you mean the same amount of metal, one as a solid bar and the other as a hollow profile - assuming bending loads, the hollow one will be stronger, yes. A compressive or a tensile load along the longitudinal axis of a bar does not care about the shape of the cross section, so solid and hollow should have similar strengths. Not real sure if shear loads are shape dependent, would have to look that up.
that core-sand looks like sandblasting sand.
it's way to rough to be coresand
Keith
my uncle was a cast-iron moulder another was a brass moulder/caster. to get back to the CI stuff he did up to 20 ton castings , the cores for the slag ladles were built up with fire bricks coated with a nice mix of horse dung , red sand, and chopped up straw mixed up to a paste , this was plastered on by hand and struck off with a strickle ( form tool ) this took a couple of weeks to do ( I saw this done when I was 20 now 75 so some time ago . those days the casting shops had no window ( old timers used to say the sunlight ruined the cast , the truth was that they had no pyrometer and estimated the melt temp by colour sunlight mucked up the colours ) I was not involved with the production but I was a maintenance sparks
hope you are feeling better ( just had the SMBO back from hospital from a pneumonia infection just after her booster jab ? she is well on the mend now )
I'm glad you're on the mend back to full health.
I agree those surfaces that are planed may have been done with a large shaper. Something the size of Abom79's G&E comes to mind.
The shaper you mention is for light duty time and material job sites. It does not compare to what the industrial planer is Some are larger than Abom's entire workshop. Great big World outside of UA-cam. .
I worked at the old Baldwin Lima Hamilton steam engine plant and encountered many large castings. These large parts were cast directly in the soil and casting sand of the plant floor. Seeing this was quite informative about how things were done. Thanks for your video.
Several years ago I went to go see the Lima locomotive works. Sadly at the time they were in the process of tearing it all down because they felt a barren lot was less offensive to people than those beautiful old industrial buildings. The plant was both enormous and beautiful. I wish I could have seen it in its prime. Sadly it seems greed and poor management and politics combined to make that an impossibility.😭
@@bcbloc02 Lima features prominently in my planned coffee table book of American cities and towns with pronunciations different from their namesakes. Wonderful places.
Hi Keith, this might be long. Long ago, when we were both (much) younger, I was attempting to do some aluminum casting based on Dave Gingery's books. Even though we lived 1500 miles from each other, in different country's Dave and I became good friends and he taught me so, so much. Your friend from Windy Hill reminds me of him. ANYWAY: Where I used to live 35 yr.'s ago there was still (and may still be) a 3rd generation owned, jobbing, cast iron foundry not far from me. I see their storm sewer grates daily. I contacted them and was allowed to spend most of a day at the plant were they poured several hundred castings twice a week, from small stuff, to very big castings that were molded in pits. Some of crew walked from the (3 story) copula with ladles of iron right from the spout to fill small molds, some molds required a large crane mounted ladle to be filled and moved to bigger pours, one pour took 15 min. to fill a very big ladle. It was bloody AWSOME!!! in their machine shop I doubt your recently restored planer was much younger (or smaller) than what they used daily.
I can go and watch any number of neckbeard newage blacksmiths forging damascus knives and swords out of various items.
I would really like to go back in time and watch a blacksmith making things that we have lost the techniques for in our present day.
The casting would most likely have bn done in a floor mding pit and handling would have been by overhead bridge crane of adequate capacity.
When I refinished my Cleveland No1 Milling Machine, I left the casting flaws exposed... my logic is.. we all have flaws, let them shine!
Core sand? Sure its not from the sand blasting. not to bust your bubble.
I empathise, Keith, been knocked out by a similar cold. That's some nice investigative industrial archaeology too! Like others, I'm thinking shaper, rather than planer and the piece on a moveable jig.
Get well soon!
That black sand in the casting looks like the blasting media that was probably used by the sandblasters.
Mr Rucker. That illness is international. I've had it and I'm in the UK.
When restoring my 110 year old Erie steam engine, I too dealt with the body filler. I would like to have known what the stuff was made of. Since most materials of the day were natural in origin, lead and linseed oil or some other drying oil came to mind. Modern two part polymer fillers are so much more convenient.
I'm wondering the same thing! I have messed with much old machinery that had the stuff just layed on. It obviously wasn't polyester filler. And even then time meant money.
7:45 Shop cat alert
Sorry to hear you've been under the weather, at least you are on the mend! Thank you for taking us thru the casting and machining of the body. Always enjoy you explaining or just sharing your thoughts/insights! Take care!
The black core sand looks like shot blasting grit…
Is that 'sand' not grit from the blasting medium?
Won’t that sand inside be from the blasting?
I think that sand is from the sand blasting….
Take a drink every time Keith says casting :)
Hope you feel better soon.
I don’t think I would have liked being there when they made that casting. I have had a lot of hard dirty nasty low paying jobs and I bet the guys that worked in that foundry were tougher than me.
I'm not really surprised you don't have any hair left up top with all that head scratching you do. Take a look at the history of the collapse of the first, cast iron, bridge across the River Tay in Scotland to see why poor foudry work and the use of filler was a bad idea. The disaster was ultimately due to poor design, lack of supervision and very high winds.
Keith, you keep on talking about planer marks, they are in my opinion shaper marks.
I was thinking the same thing, a much smaller machine required to do the same work.
Get well soon, Keith. Something tells me that sand in there is from the blaster and not left over core sand. I blame your illness on the confusion. ;)
Imagine how many frames and parts didn’t work out at the factory and were re cycled
…Not purple . Don’t worry.
Iron Recycling: one neat thing about working in a foundry.
Don't remember where i read it, but old casting tech wasn't as reliable as it is today (or at least since the 1950's) and that meant that on big castings, it was as much luck as it was skill, thus defects were much more common.
The parting line is flush with one side of the core so that the faces of the mold are flat. I wonder if that sand is from the shot blasting operation?
I am in the middle of restoring a ~1940's South Bend 6' lathe and I have had to take it down to the base casting as well. I would love to see you do a focused video going from rough casting to finished painted product. I think you have said that you dislike painting, so it is probably not your favorite topic -- but seems that it is fundamental to restoring old machines. Possible example points to cover: what was used for filler in the past? Are there lead concerns when sanding old machines? Should all the metal now be completely covered in Bondo-type product? One thick coat? Many thin coats? Does bondo go over primer? Or does it need to go right onto metal? Any pointers along the way? And if you don't do this yourself, then perhaps a guest presenter with expertise? Hope you get to feeling better soon!
Glad you're feeling better, and hope you're back to normal soon.
I recently restored one of my vises, and I wasn't prepared for how bad the casting finish was. I knocked most of it down with flap discs before Bondo, mainly because I HATE Bondo, but it turned out pretty good and I learned a ton from doing it. I've watched dozens of your videos, but I was not prepared. I'll try that filler next time. Glad to know I'm not the only one who hates filler and paint work, but just like you I did my best and am pretty proud of the result.
I've been watching old colorized movies about construction and factory work from the WW1 era lately, and it's interesting how many people work on a job. They had ten people and their muscles doing what takes one person and mechanical helpers to do today! Everything was very labor intensive - but they got it done!
Any locomotive builder films. I'd love to know how they cast the frame of those big mountain types 4-8-2 and 4-8-4 Northern types. They were made in the hundreds.
Back in the day, labor was cheap and materials were expensive. There's a bunch of UA-cam channels from Pakistan and the like that show how they do things where labor is cheap and health and safety regulations are "lenient". They'll have ten guys working on rebuilding one diesel engine including a couple of 10 year olds to fetch tools and hold things while the "elders" are working. Pretty interesting stuff.
They also do stuff like repairing a twisted heavy truck frame. They'll cut out all the rivets and remove the cross braces, man-handle the frame rails into a bit hydraulic press to straighten them (sort of, straight enough I guess) and then rivet and weld it all back together. There's no way that would be cost effective here, the labor would cost more than a brand-new truck.
@@Mishn0 Yes I've seen those, a shop full of guys with a few lathes turning out crankshafts for engines. Stuff here that would almost completely automated almost a fully manual process. The repair videos are great too.
@@Mishn0 We have the Amish working on our shed, and it's the same way with them. seven or eight man crews with some of them eight years old doing all of the running and the oldest guys supervising and doing 'eye level' work. They seem quite happy in their work though. 😊
@@timprussell I haven't seen any on locomotives - but I'll keep my eye out for them. I'd like to see that as well!
Thank you for sharing. Watched and very much enjoyed.
a pipe is not as strong as a rod of the same o.d. , that been said with the same amount of metal you can make a pipe that can be stronger
It is stronger per unit mass/weight, however.
12:50 The 'core sand' as Keith mentions - I don't think so ! I think it's sandblasting sand used recently ! It looks very sharp for cleaning stuff off compared with casting sand.
Could a large open sideplanner do this type of work? I can see no other way.good to see you are on the mend have been doing the same not much fun thanks to you for another great history lesson
The Black "sand" inside the machine is the Black Beauty they blasted it with, but it is mixed with sand from original casting for sure.
Evercoat rage filler for the win! That stuff is awesome and wayyyyy better than the bondo stuff!
I have a "j.fay &co" mid-1870's bandsaw 36inch throat. And I've thought about EVERYTHING your talking about... all the detailn it leaves a story behind. For all that we'd want to know....and all that we don't know... that behemoth is a time traveling story teller... from a very different world than we know today. It's been in my family for 55 yrs... i reminisce about ALL THE NUMEROUS projects that i made and cut on it... and someone? Has cut projects on it that would be nearly 2 (TWO) of my lifetimes work... what did they make on the VERY SAME machine that i craft on???? EXCATLY like you, i am fascinated. From Calhoun kentucky. Love your passion.
Cope and drag? Not being that familiar with casting, can you help me understand these terms?
Thanks for the walk through on the casting process. Very informative about the way things used to be done.
IMHO, I would leave the casting as is. The roughness gives it real character
I once saw a mold for a power press being prepared which was probably about 4 times the size of your casting. The mold was was being done in the floor and the molders were lying on planks across the floor tidying up the mold using molding tools and painting a mixture of coal dust and black lead which gave the casting a better finish. The metal rods used to support the cores are called chaplets.
The cores are made with core sand and linseed oil and then they are baked in an oven and this gives a distinctive but not unplesent smell in a foundry.
There are not many shops that can now do work of this nature with health and safety concerns being one problem. I read an account of a chap who wanted to have a cylinder head for his vintage car cast ( in the UK ) and he had great difficulty finding a company to do the work. ( he did eventually).
Regards from Redruth
Arnold
In CA you apparently can't even do silver plating, or at least not without debilitating requirements. If I want my trumpet replated I have to send it to Kansas.
If Jimmy wants it painted anything besides black, Ill be shocked. The man has a thing for black and gold, for sure.
The castings for the driver wheels for the T1 locomotive that is being built from scratch seems to have presented similar challenges. Those drivers are also hollow. They've already produced a couple. Check out the T1 trust (Pennsylvania) for another fascinating journey. Be well. (I suspect a search on UA-cam would yield some videos on large castings. I know there are large forgings out there.) Please be well.
Keith, they may have used a vertical shaper that had a rotary table. I have used one on a smaller scale to make parts. Bob RJ Machine
Swiss "Mikron" lathes had beautiful castings that were never painted, they used a plating process.
I remember the ban saw we had in junior high school (waaay back in '72). was an antique even then: huge cast iron top wheel about 4 feet across, completely exposed blade top to bottom and took about 30 seconds to get up to speed. luckily left with all my fingers.
If you're having respiratory problems either get a serious filter mask or go outside with the filler work. Or both, that stuffs bad . Love your stuff we saw a 48" bandsaw at an estate auction that the guy had used to cut out furniture parts on. No where near that massive and heavy .10 HP with a 1/4" blade crazy machine.
I love your videos. I watch on utube tv where I can't comment on your shows. I logged in on my computer just to subscribe and give thumbs up
In my home town (frederikshavn Denmark) there is a company that's casting pistons to motors that's bigger.
They are supports Keith...
I think they were referred to as "chaplets"
🇬🇧🙂
sweet Jesus is that thing huge. all once piece poured. last time I saw a single piece of steel of such magnitude was at Camp McCoy, Wisconsin as a young jarhead in the USMCR. we'd go up there for our yearly rifle qualification. The Army had a gunnery range up there with old tanks serving as targets. asked my boss if I could go downrange to take a peek. wiseguy tells me "Sure, but if you hear anything loud and whizzing by come on back". first time I saw a tank close up. what a mammoth hunk of metal. heard that tank duty wasn't so great, inside is cramped and stinks of diesel, guys are puking on each other.
Keith, do you know what the original maker would have used for filler at the end of the nineteenth century, way before epoxy based fillers were available. I know on steel they would have used body solder (80% lead 20% tin) but I don't think that would bond to cast iron.
Thanks for the explainer. Jim Bell (Australia)
Your lungs are probably compromised from all the dust and chemicals you've been exposed to. You need to get healthier Keith.
What would we do without you ?
That may be sand blaster sand inside it now, it did just come back from being blasted.
Gonna say the green t-shirt is the color you and Jimmy agreed on, but don't start working yet, after new years you should be feeling a lot better. Merry Christmas Keith & Family.
I wonder what they used for a filler material back when this casting was produced ? Body filler that is commonly used today wasn’t around back then and wouldn’t be for at least 50 years after this casting was produced .
Mr. Peabody is accepting appointments with his way back machine. The big problem is that if his return time is as much as 1 second before you went way back, you would not be able to remember what you saw. Tee Hee.
Big patterns are still being made - not quite on the same scale, but Dominic Chinea is trying to recreate a specific old type of wheeling machine (he has bought the company name, he is that serious). The pattern making is at ua-cam.com/video/ktx__dsgU0c/v-deo.html but the entire journey to obtaining an example to reverse engineer is documented in some of his other videos.
This was a great video, thanks for sharing it with us. I subbed to his channel.
@@marcp1180 You are welcome. He works on a show called _The Repair Shop_ and carries his easy going enthusiasm to YT, much to our benefit.
By the way. in the old times the company was named Alfa Diesel, but today it's a part of MAN and they produce motors to power container ships.
The hollow casting is stronger than solid only when evaluated pound for pound, barring defects in casting caused by the uneven cooling of a thick casting.
Tartan, Jimmy picked tartan paint and it's got to be applied with a left-hand paint brush. ;-)
You are lucky.
My bronchitis lasts 2-3 months.
I also think it was machined by a SHAPER- not a planer
Thanks for sharing! Kool, over view and painting isn’t my favorite ether but when I do I make sure it last a life time.
I know of a guy who machines castings like that with a big shaper.
Glad you're feeling better, but if you think for one second we are going to believe that Jimmy DiResta knows there's colors other than yellow you need to go lie back down.
3:52 yep that's exactly what they are. When we do them (in bronze) they melt in to the casting a little better but sometimes not and are visible. You could pop them out or drill them out and weld/braise it up. Probably not necessary unless there's any investment/sand trapped in it.
It makes me cringe to see epoxy primer on all the machined surfaces.
Why didn't you mask all that?
The 2 old fellas in the bodyshop where I worked when I was a youngin in the 70's told me when filler first came out it was hard as hell you had to grind and file it like lead , Bondo as you call it came out in 1955 so what would the fillers be at the turn of the last century .
Keith I think you should just paint it without body filler. The casting tells a story.
Agreed. I would much rather spend time elsewhere- I understand about wanting to remove sharp corners and rough casting marks. Just celebrate you are bringing a machine back to service.
I also would love to travel back in time to see how things like this giant bandsaw were manufactured.
There’s a guy in the UK that bought the rights to the Ranalah English wheels and is in the process of casting new ones. While not as large as the bandsaw casting it is still a large casting. His last video was the construction of the casting master.
Here’s the play list
ua-cam.com/play/PLPmNdN-4RSYJuLVqX7pmRIuaNRtxG0HbC.html
I'm curious about why these old bandsaws were often these huge cast machines instead of the lighter models we have now. Any ideas?
Pretty interesting that a hollow profile can be stronger than a solid profile. I would like to see the math's regarding this theory.
good video keith
Hi Keith Can you please help me and a few others regarding Abom 79 He was doing a series called Abom Adventures This suddenly stopped about a month ago and we are all wondering if he is ok It is very unusual for him to not answer and mail and to sign off this way If you can get any information for me and quite a few others we would be very grateful Ps I am subscribed to your channel and an avid follower of your videos Pete UK
Did they make a vertical planner in the old days? Or could they have made a smaller portable version a horizontal planner
Probably poured in a pit mold, too large for a flask. Cores supported with core rods and wires.
I stopped in to Monarch Lathe to pick up a rebuild EE lathe. That is what they used and did alot of sanding..
caught the same sickness in Nov... was not the rona.. get well !!!
Is that sand you found casting sand or grit from the blasting process.
I appreciated the talk about how it would have been cast. Very interesting
Work!? You get more done each week in your hobby time than I've ever done at my actual job.
Is it just me, or does that loose black sand not look a lot like a coarse blasting sand, rather than core sand?
I can easily see where a sandblasting operation could fill the voids in the casting through the openings.
Not that I doubt that there is some core sand left behind - cleaning the void would be very challenging to say the least!
One thing that bothers me greatly is that knowledge of the past is being lost. Very few such as yourself want to keep it alive. Today most young people want what they want and they want it yesterday and are not willing to put forth the time and effort to learn from the past. I'm 76 yrs and retired military with 30 yrs. I'm old school and I have friends and family that I try to present to them the idea of doing something the right way, to learn how and why, to pass on that knowledge to others and not be afraid to say that is what I did.
Don't know if they still cast tank hulls and turrets, but they are big castings
Isn't it possible that the sand came from the recent sand blasting rather than the original casting process?
black beauty from the sand blaster ???????
A tube is actually less strong than a solid construction. What you propably mean is that is has a better strength to weight ratio than solid constructions.
I sand blasted the casting of our old cream separator and was shocked at how much filler they used.
I see Ginger was entranced, listening to you talk about the bandsaw. 😁
9:07 specialty tools for each operation Keith. there's no way they laid that down in a setup to flatten and square it up, Keith. something tells me they had an easier setup Mabey something that clamped on I can see in my head how that was passable
Any plans to ever get back to this bandsaw restoration?