Finland's WW2 Aims: Creating Greater Finland?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 20 тра 2022
- Did Finland in World War II want to create Greater Finland (Finnish: Suur-Suomi)? Did Finland want to enlarge its territory during the Continuation War (Finnish: Jatkosota)? Or did Finland only want to recover its lost territories after the Winter War (Finnish: Talvisota)? It's not easy to answer this question. After the Finnish invasion of East Karelia the Finns set up a military administration.
History Hustle presents: Finland's WW2 Aims: Creating Greater Finland?
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SOURCES
- Finland's War of Choice. The Troubled German-Finnish Coalition in World War II (Henrik O. Lunde).
- The History of Finland (Jason Lavery).
- Joining Hitler's Crusade. European Nations and the Invasion of the Soviet Union, 1941 (David Stahel) Finland (Henrik Meinander).
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VIDEO
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Finnish Army during the Battle of Tali-Ihantala 1944 | WW2 HD Combat Footage (My Colorization)
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Wanna ask something? Send me an email at: historyhustle@gmail.com
Why Italy joined Barbarossa:
ua-cam.com/video/iWOuFRY3P-I/v-deo.html
Why Hungary joined Barbarossa:
ua-cam.com/video/tvuMQ6OV4BA/v-deo.html
Why Romania joined Barbarossa:
ua-cam.com/video/DQ9CTNiXD7M/v-deo.html
His first Sword Scabbard Declaration Mannerheim delivered already in February 1918 and in 1941 he simply repeated it. There were also Finnish Viena expedition in 1918 and Aunus expedition in 1919 - both to East Karelia. So there's no point to wander whether Finns wanted to build Greater Finland with Nazi Germany's support because that's obvious. The rest is excellent.
Before Finland launched the Continuation War June 1941 the several finnish cities were aerial bombed by the USSR.
@@hybridarmyofthegdl2193 You're totally contradicting yourself. On the one hand, you claim that "all Moskovites in Karelia dream of a greater Finland" yet, on the other hand, you claim that it's "because of Moskovite Imperialism, that "this part of Europe has been turned into Nigeria with Snow."
So we is it that they want? An expanded Finish State, or an area of an expanded Finish State, with all the natural wealth lying under the ground, up for grabs in a free- for- all- as- long- as- your- a- foreigner- or- a foreign- Corporation.
Alongside all of that goes the utter mayhem and misery, that means foreign and local mercenaries and militia (the locals to give the appearance of the Government being in charge, the foreigners to actually run the security) And when the locals finally realise that they're being "duped" and "pitted against one another'' and try to coalesce around a single charismatic leader or umbrella group so as to try to attain at least some "power to/for the people" it's far too late, the train has left the station, and old Elvis, he left the building before they were borne, and they will be crushed like cockroaches, "all, just pawns in the game."
Anyway, we know who you ALL are, you came in and signed up for militias years ago, to take your place as "useful idiots"!! Well now that those days are gone, who will be your "Last of the Jedi's?" And when you get to New York, to complain to the Security Council of the United Nations, don't be too surprised when they arrest you, because now, well, you're a "Wanted Terrorist" ... !!
"Sorry Han, there was NOTHING I (could be bothered to) DO!!"
Evil laughter, fade to black, and that's a wrap, ladies and gentlemen.
@@jerzypodgorski8630 What you call Greater Finland is what Finland was earlier.
Karelen was earlier a part of Sweden and so we're Finland .
All areas around the bay of Finland are former parts of Sweden - Finland.
Finland today is "Smaller Finland" .
@@hybridarmyofthegdl2193 "Muscovite imperialism" differed from other imperialisms because it invested much more in distant, poorer areas like Central Asia than in its core. British Empire for example was sucking all the wealth to London and British isles and that's why Great Britain now is better developed than Russia. Understand now?
Thank for this! My grandfather was from the swedish speaking coast in western Finland. As a 20 year old he was sent to the Svir river and was in the war until 1944.
Thanks for replying.
Finland being able to keep her democracy after the war was a real miracle. Think about how Stalin and his successors treated other German war time ally countries in the USSR sphere of influence post war.
They got lucky yes.
The agreement whit CCCP to keep Finland neutral , was the key for Finland. And have worked very well for Finland . But now when Finland are getting into Nato . This agreement promisses are broken by Finland . Also have in mind . Before 1911? . Finland was 100% Russian territory.
@@pertpesc7058 No, it was not russian territory before 1911 .
From 1200 to 1809 Finland belonged to Sweden.
In 1809 Finland was conquered by Russia, but gained its independence only 9 years later in 1918.
As a result both finnish and swedish are the official languages in Finland and even a small part of the population of 6 pc - mostly in the south west - speaks primarily swedish
@@fryfrysk russian from 1909 to 1918 .
@@pertpesc7058 Are you suggesting every time a country occupies a nation it's "100%" their territory? Was Iraq "100% US territory" after the Iraq invasion? Finland has never been "100% Russian territory". During the period Russia captured Finland from Sweden, Finland was an autonomous region. And it was 109 years not 9 years.
As a Finn I see two different war aims in the continuation war. Being pragmatic, the Finns must have had two different views: a scenario where Germany wins the war and plan B where Germany loses. Contrary to what the video claims, I think the Finns totally knew everything would depend on how Germany would manage to reach its goals.
The military answer for both scenarios was to push the border to the great Karelian lakes and form the shortest possible land front. Not much attention was paid to the Lapland area where the German troops operated. Reaching the most favorable position for defense in Karelia the Finnish army stopped and started digging. If Germany was to win, Finland would keep Karelia that had a population with a language closely related to Finnish. If Germany was to lose, the Finnish army would have favorable positions for defense and depth to stop the Red Army in front of the old, pre 1940 border.
If Finland had remained neutral and stayed inside the 1940 borders, there would have been no Mannerheim line and it would have been practically impossible to defend the country. That risk could not be taken. Although Finland lost both the Winter War and the Continuation war, it played its cards well. Helsinki remained the only European capital of a war going country besides London and Moscow that was never occupied. In the Continuation war Finland only lost Petsamo in the far north and for the second time managed to protect its independence.
Mannerheim line was not in use during the Continuation war
@@Karpaneen Mannerheim line was destroyd by the Soviets after the Winter War, but the part from Lake Ladoga along the River Vuoksi was part of the new VKT-line that was kept by the Finns to the end of the Continuation war.
Thanks for these insights.
I thought the Finn’s won the winter war with there better knowledge of the land and there gorilla warfare tactics
@@nataliekennedy4646 Finland lost but kept its independence. USSR won in theory but they didn't achieve their goals and suffered horrendous casualties. They planned to annex whole Finland and set up a puppet regime there.
🇫🇮 Just a poetic note for those who love History: "Karelianism was a national romantic hobby for artists, writers, and composers in which Karelian and Karelian-Finnish culture was used as a source of inspiration. Karelianism was most popular in the 1890s." Wikipedia.
Obrigado! 🇧🇷
Thanks for sharing this.
@@hybridarmyofthegdl2193 👍 What "GDL" means? Thank you!
I love the tunic and flag,you always add passion with your videos and you put so much information in very little time. Keep up the awesome work.
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Thank you for this historical information on Finland and WW2 - I have Finnish Ancestry and this was all very interesting to me. My Ancestors were reindeer herders.
🇫🇮👍 thanks for replying
Indeed
Very robust analysis and such an enjoyable video. Thanks Stefan for everything you bring !
Thanks for your reply.
Young man I enjoyed this mini documentary very much. You covered the geopolitical aspects of both Germany and Italian territorial ambitions and Finland's desire to create a greater Finland. Kudos and I await for more documentaries. God bless you and your staff.
Many thanks Fred!
Looking forward to this video Stefan!
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@@HistoryHustle Another great video on Finland!
Thanks for this video! Quality content.
Many thanks!
Great stuff, I love your work, keep going.
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More superb content, Stefan ! Congratulations ! By the way, I shared your recent video on Greece with a dear friend of mine, a Greek lady who teaches English in Thessaloniki ( Salonika ), and she was delighted to watch and listen to Greek history presented in English ! I look forward to sharing more of your Greek, or Balkan-based videos with her in the future ( although I certainly hope that she’s decided to subscribe to your channel by now )….
Awesome Matthew, many thanks!!
@@HistoryHustle It’s my pleasure, Stefan.
Interesting , i dont remember learning about this in school , Thank you stefan keep making more!
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Thank you yet again Stefan, superb history my friend.
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Thankyou, another one of those interesting subjects that I was aware of but only in passing. Well presented as ever.
Thank you David!
Glad you touched on this
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Learned a lot! Many thanks.
Great!
Cheers Stefan 🥃🥃🥃 Thank you for sharing your knowledge friend ✌️ stay safe !
Many thanks as always Jesse!
Great questions and video
Many thanks!!
Very interesting to investigate the real goals of the Finns during the Continuation War (Greater Finland or recovery of the lost territories during the Winter War basically). As always, well documented and explained video. Cheers, Stefan!
Hi Luis, see you do some catching up. Great! Really appreciate your support!
@@HistoryHustle That’s right Stefan, I have been complicated for some weeks but I will catch up as fast as posible and then keep up the pace. Your videos are too good to be missed. Cheers!
Excellent video. I am glad that the term “co-belligerent” is correctly used here. One can instantly tell if someone is ignorant of Finlands relationship with Germany at the time by referring to them as “allies”, which was not the case. Strangely enough, modern Finland and Germany appear to become real allies this year, once again because of their concerns regarding Russia.
I think it's intellectually dishonest to claim that Finland and Germany were not allies. Finland had German troops in its territories, had some of its troops under German command and had a common enemy. And Finland crossed the pre 1939 border into Soviet territory thus joining in the attempted destruction of the Soviet Union.
This insistance on being a co-belligerent and not an ally was a Finnish policy to distance Finland from German crimes and nazi policies. It was necessary during the cold war but I think today we should state this as it was. Finland was member of the Axis in only but name. It wasn't an authoritarian state but it did ally with the Axis powers to reclaim its lost territory and to defend Finnish people from Soviet aggression.
And if you claim Finland and Germany are allies today, you really have to admit they were allies during WW2. Finland and Germany don't have any binding defence quarantees for each other but during WW2 Finland and Germany had several military- and arms deals..
If any country deserves the "co-belligerent" label with regards to its relationship to Germany, it's Japan. Germany and Japan had completely different war goals, and did almost nothing to help each other.
@@rodafowa1279 That is completely true. If Japan was an Axis power, how Finland wasn't? Finland did much more co-operation with Germany than Japan.
This "Finland was a neutral power fighting only its own war"-narrative doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
@@Karpaneen you lack any ability to understand nuance. Finland and Germany were not allies. Germany and Japan were not.
Thank you Stefan for your brilliant work. I'm fascinated by the Finnish-Russian war and I breathlessness the Finns for their dogged defence against the night of the USSR. A piece about foreign volunteers in Finland would be interesting
Perhaps one day.
Finns in 1939-45 and 2022 are not the same lot, unfortunately. Today Finns have lost their living power (= no more enough babies, no more will to defend the borders). It means they do not have anymore the will or power to defend themselves or the way of their living. Finland will be overtaken not necessarily by the Russians, but by immigration which will inevitably change the population and the structure of society . Nato membership is now on the agenda in Finland, but membership will not correct the internal problems the country is facing currently.
@@AS-vb2ci bullshit we are on top on the list that which countries population wants to defend country even on peace time.
@@ralepej Then why the streets of Finnish cities have become unsecure for Finns? Why hostile invaders terrorize Finns in broad day light? Why?
A very nice tunic you've got there, where did you buy it from? I would like a similar one myself, overall great video and nicely compiled.
www.hikishop.biz/
@@HistoryHustle thanks m8.
Raised the bar again. Excellent.BZ.
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How have I not thought of this.
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Like me, certain facts were never presented or omitted. You're not alone.
Hey Stephan, please can you do some videos of you teaching at school? It would be pretty interesting to see your environment :D
Not really the scope of my channel. Besides, I teach and Dutch and there are privacy issues regarding children on screen. So no, sorry.
Stefan you could also included how Russians threated Karelians and Finns between 1920-1939 inside Soviet Union and Rebel of Karelia 1921-1922. Also AKS and Royal Navys base on Koivisto 1919 are good for mention.
I mean when discussed about question of Karelia which is wuite related to this video. Thought that Royal Navy base could be more related to question why Winter War happened
👍Hustler, I really like the political background in your videos. Historiography is always political and i am still shocked to learn how many high up leaders have so extensive ambitions. We must never forget all these statements and actions taken by various countries in the past and their attempts at expansionism must always be taken into account. These are old even ancient rivalries some from past empires, or other times simply to obtain energy Independence.
Thanks for watching this one.
Good primary sourcing . Bafflingly history but important history in a changed eastern europe.
Thanks for watching.
This was very well done 👍
You might be interested to read book called Suomen pyhä sota
Papit jatkosodan julistajina
If you can find it in english somewhere
Title would be in english something like
Finlands holy war
Pastors as proclaimers of continution war
Thanks for your reply.
"if something is too good to be true it usually is" that is Finland if i had to describe them back then
Hard not to get carried away in the heat of the moment.
It's what happened...
It is interesting, the military actions, both in the Winter War and in the one that followed. The Finnish Army of 1939/40 had 9 divisions, already in the Continuation War in 1941, it had been ostensibly modernized and had 16 divisions, of which one was armored, equipped only with Soviet tanks captured in 1939/40. Some 125 aircraft, no tanks (some sources cite 20 outdated) no anti-tank weapons and a few hundred old guns, moreover, individual weapons were outdated, except for the Suomi submachine gun, one of the best submachine guns of WWII.
Thanks for sharing this.
Intressant.
Dank 👍
I think a big contributing factor for the Continuation War was the fact that the Soviet Union remained very hostile and threatening after the Winter War. They were taking over the Baltic states, shooting down passenger aircraft and generally being unpleasant. There must been a sense that round 2 was coming and if so, better fight it on our terms. Of course, there must have been ambitions for Greater Finland as well. 20 years earlier military expeditions had been sent in so called "kinship wars" to help other neighboring finnic people gain independence while Russia was in turmoil of its civil war. Estonia managed to do it, while Ingria and Karelia failed. There must have been more than a few that saw a chance to make it work this time. Anyway, the ideal scenario for Finland would probably have been Germany and SU fighting each other to exhaustion and leave Finland to annex East Karelia.
Then there's Mannerheim's declaration back during Finnish Civil War about driving Bolsheviks out of Karelia as well as Finland and calling back to that declaration at the start of the Continuation War. Might be just because he had been critiqued for this "unfullfilled promise" by kinship activists and radical right wing for 2 decades. At any rate, after the offensive phase where he secured the "3 isthmus front", he settled down to fight very defensively. Passively, even. It was obviously clear to him that it was up to Germany to win the war.
Finland could always just use Stalin's excuse. We wanted to narrow the front line and provide a superior defensive position against future Soviet Acts of Aggression. *Sarcasm*
lol
@@HistoryHustle *Shrugs* almost every negative accusation people make about the Nazis and her allies can be compared to the Soviet Union at the time. Even Hitler Stabbing the Soviets in the back by breaking their non-aggression pact. I mean Stalin broke his Non-aggression pact a few years later with japan for example, so Stalin is just as back stabby as Mr Toothbrush Noise.
@@Alte.KameradenStalin crushed Hitler and Mannheim 😂😂
@@JDDC-tq7qm And? I fail to see your point.
Barbarossa was the perfect chance for Finland gain its wildest goals, and if the Finns really won, it would've meant like conquering the whole world. As the areas Finland wanted, were all the Finnic peoples area. (Uniting the race)
Hahaha why don't u hate the Swede's hmmm answer that
Some Finns had those dreams. Others didn't.
I mean ofcourse finns aren't biased and didn't really want to conquer all those areas, but you know the comment I said is like all the finns would ever demand in this world... for example how Russia's or Germany's ambitions were to conquer the entire world.
@@HistoryHustle yes you are correct of course but in any society the crux of the matter is always this if the group that want things like a greater Finland for instance are the inteligentsia and ruling class these things will become policy .
@@HistoryHustle During the Continuation war there was widespread support to "liberate" (or annex) all of Karelia from Soviet rule. Even the most liberal social democrats supported crossing the old border or didn't actively oppose it.
Those who didn't care about Karelians or support Finnish ultra-nationalism, stated usually that the "three isthmus line", that run somewhat on the border of Arkhangelsk's and Vologda's oblasts over the lake Ladoga to Gulf of Finland, was necessary to hold in order to protect Finland from a future Russian invasion.
If Germany had won the war, Finland would have definetly have taken control of east Karelia. Finland even renamed Soviet Karelia's largest city, Petrozavodsk, to a more Finnic name after they captured it. In the case of Soviet regime's total collapse, Finland would have most likely annexed Kola peninsula (which Finland has little to no cultural ties to) also for the ease of government/management, as there would not have been any other power to take it aside from German controlled Norway.
But a big problem for that was the lack of land connection from Norway to Kola. Finland had access to the arctic ocean that time.
Thanks for the Video and the great short story. In 1939 Finland yearned for Peace. After the Winter War (November 1939 - March 1940) he decided to take sides to survive. The idea of "Greater Finland" (video 0:35) was installed in the minds of nationalist and political groups long before. When the USSR is defeated in 1941, the opportunity to fulfill that desire was established.
The Finns reach a maximum advance in the Isthmus of Karelia and Eastern Karelia, there it stops and they will not advance, even with the requests to that effect that they will make from Berlin. Nor did they attack Leningrad, which however remains surrounded under siege from the North and South (tragedy for the civilian population).
They fulfilled their territorial objectives (South and South East, not in the North: "Operation Silver Fox fails) and will stop until ...... July 1944. Greetings Stefan.
Thanks for your reply Juan!
The idea of the Greater Finland was defensive. Instead of a very long border to defend, it was the idea of a Three Isthmus border which could be very easily defended by the small Finnish Army. It was also the idea of liberation of the oppressed Finno-Ugric people such as the Ingrians and Karelians. Finland also needed allies where they could get them, and had seen how other small nations had been betrayed and abandoned by the Western Powers. The war would end with much of Eastern Europe abandoned to communism.
Hope you'd find the video interesting.
The idea of grearer russia ia also defencive but nobody seems to care.
@@Silver_Prussiandifference is that soviets being tje aggressors in the winter war sparked this idea
There were different opinions of course, but annexing the entire Kola peninsula would have been a very big challenge. East Karelia was probably the most that the Finns could take.
In reality yes.
They tried to do that in operation Platinum Fox. Or at least tried to capture Murmansk but failed miserably at that. Taking whole Kola peninsula was out of question.
Hungary in the interwar time was a kingdom without a king, a country without a sea, ruled by an admiral without a navy.
Finland was a country with a president who had a german name, spoke swedish as first language and had served in the russian army
Crazy Times...
Mannerheim was not the president of Finland at this time.
@@fransliszt Not president but regent or valtionhoitja
@@amina-pr8xt He was valtionhoitaja in 1919 before the establishment of the presidency. At this point he was purely a military leader.
@@fransliszt which time are you actually talking about? Did you notice about which time this video is?
I smell a "Republic of Uhtua" episode! Seriously, those are your best!
If I ever go there on location. I'm afraid not anytime soon.
The map showing parts of Sweden is nonsense. Finland NEVER have made any claims on us or been anything but friendly to Sweden.
We too have never asked to have the Swedish speaking parts or had any secret dreams off that. Finalnd is the pefect neighbour.
The map doesn't show the areas Finland laid claims on. It's explained in the video. Please watch the video if you haven't.
The Continuation War (Jatkosota) was attempted to create Greater Finland (Suur-Suomi) and was planned part of "Unternehmen Barbarossa". Finland target was identical to German "Lebensraum" ideology. Adolf Hitler was seen by the Finland political leaders as a genious leader, president Risto Ryti mention his review in radio speech as well general Aarne Juutilainen while flying with Hitler to Finland June 1942.
The main enemy of all karelians during ww1 was soviet union. But then there was fighting between different factions between them
Hey Stefan, great video, this reminds me of the new focus for Estonia/Finland in Hearts of Iron 4, have you ever played this game ? It’s a ww2 historians fantasy
Thanks for watching. Haven't played the game.
@@HistoryHustle what???? Heresy, you have to give it a try sometime! You can play as any nation and go down alternative history timelines or go the historical route, highly recommend !
Thank you for putting things in perspective! We are all against the Russian expansionism without forgetting the past about Finland and some other Baltic countries' deeds during WWII!
The Baltic people never attacked Russia though..
@@HistoryHustle True. As you have mentioned, USSR had attacked Finland before Finns would cooperate with the Nazis. I had in my mind also some extensive Nazi cooperation in some Baltic countries...
@@puertola7186 No such thing as Finnish expansionism, just taking what is ours. Most of Western Russia was stolen from Finnics, including the areas of Moscow, St Petersburg and Novgorod.
@@finnicpatriot6399it's Russian now so go cry 😂
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Finland was able to get independent, part thanks to the students who as part of the Jaeger movement got military training in Germany. After independence and defeating the red traitors who sided with Russia, a number joined the Academic Karelia Society which advocated that all of Finland should be free, not only the territory of the grand duchy or the Petsamo territory. They fought in the Kinship wars to unify Eastern Karelia but were defeated by large soviet amounts of troops. It's important to remember that of those people that cared about Finnish independence, many people wanted all of Karelia to be free as well, and not be limited to a line drawn on a map in the medieval ages by the Swedish and Russians.
Eastern Karelia, like Western Karelia were inhabited by Finnic peoples. In the 1900s some Russians Ukrainians and Khazaks were moved into Eastern Karelia. It does not take away from the right of self-determination of the Finnish people. The continuation war had many reasons, the most important and valid justification was to liberate the land lost a few years earlier. Another valid justification is the unification of all the Finnish peoples and territories into one country.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
A surprisingly unbiased treatment of the subject of Finland´s war aims. Many interesting postings in the comments as well. What I generally miss is the realization that although there certainly was some planning, much of action taken by the Finnish leadership after the Moscow peace was rather ad hoc. Finland´s position in 1940 was so precarious and the constant harrassment by the Soviets so great, that Finlands leaders, mainly Mannerheim and Ryti, had to take any chance of getting help. After Molotovs visit to Berlin in the autmn of 1940 it became clear that Hitler no longer was willing to let the Soviets have their way with Finland, and Finland immediately seized on this opportunity. Off course they knew that they thereby tied themselves to the German "mast", but there was no other options. Finland could not remain alone.
Thanks for your reply.
@lati long Agree on the lofty ideas. The reason that Mannerheim mentioned the liberation of Carelia in his day order at the star of the continuation war seems to have been that he was short of a better idea. Having kept the planning under wraps until then he now needed to motivate the country to go on attack. He very soon seems to have regretted, even been ashamed of, these words and he never returned to the subject.
Great comment, here we see that a coherent "crisis" management, corresponded, a direction of the War and similar military actions- Compare, what happened in Finland with what happened with other members of the Axis. For seo I like reading so much about this country in the 2 GM. It is inspiring. Asymmetric warfare. He greets you courteously.
It is interesting how Finland have indoctrinated people into thinking that Finland were so strong. Truth is without nazi help, they would not have done so well at all.
@@The80sWolf_ Finland´s wartime association to Germany had very little if anything to do with Nazism. A telling example is that when the German ambassador to Finland was asked by Berlin if he could find 50 men loyal to the nazis to do a coup d'etat in Finland, the ambassador answered: I wont find a single one!
IIRC after the failure at Barbarossa’s outset to capture Murmansk (a very stupid failure, from the German standpoint, and another lost opportunity for the German Navy to contribute) the United States, which severed diplomatic relations with Finland only in 1944 and restored them in 1945, “strongly requested” of Finland not to advance to the White Sea so as to cut the rail link between Murmansk and Moscow, which was needed for Lend Lease supply. Finland respected this request. In 1944, the Soviet Union also realized that invading Finland again would pointlessly divert troops needed for the final defeat of Germany, which had done so much damage to the Soviet Union while Finland had not. Finland’s liberty postwar was the product of its focus on defense and not on conquest or revenge.
how many flags you own tho?
Guess 8 or so.
A symbolic 1000'nd like as I am a descendant of Karelo finns from the Isthmus. Do I think a greater Finland as a result of a german victory and a greater german slave empire was a good idea: No. But I am certainly saddened by the fact that Finland doesn't have the borders today as they were stipulated in the treaty of Tartu in 1920.
Wouldn't the Nazis (if they had won) have betrayed Finland and annexed the territory for their own? Just a thought I had. But I think Greater Finland could have been quite something if it had come to be. I would like to visit Finland someday, it's a very nice country
Good question. We'll never now.
@@samlosco8441 Well, the German speaking parts of Switzerland were to be included in the Third Reich at some point anyway. I think you may be well right
@@samlosco8441 "Finns were not only considered good racially, but ..." Well, not quite so. The one in Finland well-known military author Wolf Halsti was Colonel during WW2. When a German Colonel saw Halsti first time he astonished exclaimed "My goodness, he looks European!"
Greater Finland seems to be an interesting idea
Sure is interesting concept.
It will never happen so keep dreaming 😂😂
@@JDDC-tq7qm did I hurt your russian feelings? I just said it's interesting, i'm not involved. If it's justified is another question...
@@amina-pr8xt not at all I'm laughing at the Finns who dreamed about a Greater Finland but never happened thanks to the sacrifice and determination of Red Army I'm proud and happy for Russia
How does the Finn's not advancing on Leningrad and other Soviet territory compare with the folly to expand past the regained territories lost by Finland after the Winter War?
What do you mean exactly?
Rudolph the Finns knew that a direct attack on Leningrad would never be forgiven by the Soviets. Their advances into East Karelia posed no real concern. It was to gain space to later trade for time, and to deny bases to the Red Air Force for bombing raids against Finland. They knew that an attack on Leningrad would mean no possibility of a negotiated peace. They also realized that Germany would not win, if not by the Battle for Moscow then certainly by Stalingrad.
@@tylerhiggins3522 Finland did not help Germans blocking Leningrad. However I think it should have been done because Leningrad produced weapons which were used in Winter War 1939-40 to destroy Finland.
By August 1941, Finns advanced to within 20-30 km of the northern suburbs of Leningrad at the 1939 Finnish-Soviet border. Finnish forces crossed the pre-Winter War border on the Karelian Isthmus by eliminating Soviet salients at Beloostrov and Kirjasalo, thus straightening the front line so that it ran roughly along the old Russo/Finnish border.
Finnish troops had earlier in August 1941 received orders to halt the advance after reaching their goals. After reaching their goals, Finnish troops halted their advance and started moving troops to East Karelia. That meant no Leningrad siege ever happened from the Finnish side. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad
I recommend to look at this map: Map showing the Axis encirclement of Leningrad en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leningrad_Siege_May_1942_-_January_1943.png
Then look at the other map which shows the Finnish border which was agreed in the Tartu 1920 peace treaty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelian_Isthmus
Comparing the maps you can see that Finnish troops stopped approximately at the border of Tartu 1920 peace treaty. So Finland only took back the part of Carelian Isthmus which USSR had stolen in the Winter War. Finnish artillery could not reach Leningrad and there was never supply lines from north to Leningrad to be cut by the Finns.
I have to disagree with your statement that "Finland didn't know their aims would be dependent on German Soviet war". I believe finnish leadership knew this very well. You can see this from many examples like Finns not committing to the siege of Leningrad and instead digging in and ignoring Germany's pleas to complete the encirclement. Other example is the quick withdrawal from svir river after the German offensive started to turn around in the soviets favor. Also finnish leadership not leaving many traces about their war goals is another indicator that they were prepared for a outcome that could be a bad one.
I agree. I was quoting historian Lunde actually.
Add: he was referring to the ordinary Finnish population and not the government.
@@HistoryHustle President Ryti wrote that it was good Soviet Union was attacked by Germany , and it would be good if Germany too gets weaker "in that game". So he really was not friend with Nazism but saw Germany as the only supporter of Finland.
Suur Suomi 🇫🇮❤
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❤
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It is also necessary to understand what happened in East Karelia in the 1920s and 1930s. Soviet Russia failed ALL its promises over the years. The Finnish government had a long negotiations on everything, but despite this, people and families were executed or forced to work for the state, corruption ramped up and funds, cereals were all stolen. People died in starvation just like in Ukraine, it was famine by design.
Last most should read '....I admire the Finns'
I understand.
From 1941 to 2022 .... why is Finland about to enter NATO ??
Because Russia is now weak, it is an historical opportunity to dream about a Greater Finland. Well, this is only a personal opinion from very far away, from Mallorca.
" it is an historical opportunity to dream about a Greater Finland." Sorry, but that logic does not work. When Finland joins NATO it must forget any dreams of Greater Finland for ever. The NATO rules effectively cut off such possibility 😥
@@jounisuninen : Thanks for the answer, probably right and accurate.
But History is full of deception. What I try to transmit is that all European politicians are profesional liers. NATO is a big opportunity for the future expansion of Finland if Russia is weak.... treaties can be interpreted. 🤷🏻♂️
We'll see how things play out. I think there are much similarities between 1941 and 2022.
Finland remained independent after World War II for many reasons. If Finland had been attacked, Finland would have started a guerrilla war. Mannerheim had the biggest reason why Russia did not continue the war ... Mannerheim knew his role. Stalin also appreciated Mannerheim, with whom he had made certain agreements during the war.
Thanks for sharing.
By 1945 Soviet had 6 million troops invading Germany now you telling me that Guerrilla warfare would stop the Red Army I very much doubt that
@@JDDC-tq7qm Finland is a massive forest
@@xhorus88 that shouldn't be a problem to 6 million Red Army troops seeking revenge Finland would've been overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the Soviets
Mannerheim’s leadership of the Finnish army was one of the reasons Finland held its ground in the Winter War and the Continuation War, and the Soviet Union failed to conquer Finland. Mannerheim was voted #1 in the “All-time greatest Finns” competition.
However, there are some who consider Mannerheim a villain or a traitor. This is because in the Finnish Civil War, which lasted from winter to spring in 1918, Mannerheim led the White side, which is said to have been very brutal to the opposing Red side.
Mannerheim hated communism. He saw it as ultimate evil. He saw Nazism as another brand of communism, but even worse.
This is what Mannerheim wrote to his sister in the spring of 1939
We have complained and indignant about the methods of the Russians, but it was nothing but a childhood game beside Adolphs with his supreme Chekist Himmler and his gentle cousins. It is Ragnaök that is taking place
By Czeckist he was refering to KGB by its old name Cheka.
Thanks for sharing.
No border gore! LETS GOOOO
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Finland’s position during WWII was very complicated. Following the Winter War, were I a Finn, I would support any effort to get as much possible in the face of Soviet aggression. Problem was that, due to circumstances, they teamed up with another monster.
Thank you for another thought provoking episode.
Many thanks for your reply once again Eleanor!
I think. Since Finland could not control WW2, they had to adapt to the situation that was just then. first molutov / ribbentrop pact, not good for many countries. Then Poland, September 1939. After the winter war that could have ended worse in March 1940. April attacks on Denmark and Norway. May 1940 France. fairly fast events. and more than that ???? what to do. make a friend and buy time, until June 1941. then your video begins. a bit awkward situation.
Indeed. Thanks for watching.
Germany and Russia called the shots due to food supply. Stalin did not want to starve Finland in 1944 because he was still playing long term. It is irrelevant what Finland wanted in the end.
Relevant or not, it's history. That's why I made this video.
I am sure Estonians would have chosen Finland over USSR.
Guess so, but Finland was no option for them.
Choosing the USSR over Finland would be choosing dirt over gold
Another great video Stefan,knew nothing about finnish expansion plans,wonder if thats why putin is so upset about finland trying to join nato these days?.
Thanks for your reply. Putin being upset about Finland joining NATO is also because of his own doing. His plan totally backfired.
@@HistoryHustle Yes it did,didnt it.
@@HistoryHustle What I wonder is how long it will take him to start calling the Finns fascists/neo-nazis by harking back to the finnish involvement with nazi-germany.
Putin is scared, but Finland would never attack Russia. Putin spews the lies of The Great Patriotic War, the truth is Eastern Europe couldn't have been any worse off as part of a Europa behind the A-A Line than it was behind the Iron Curtain.
@@tylerhiggins3522 Not so sure of that. If Generalplan Ost had been carried out to the full, many millions would have died in horrible conditions from Prague, to Warshaw to Talinn.
I think the Finns were opportunists, overall. They knew how to pretend they only wanted certain territories but not others, so as to sound like they weren't aggressors. However, given the opportunity, they would have taken all the territory they could have. Take care an ding dong.
I agree. They sure weren't aggressors like the USSR or Nazi Germany.
@@HistoryHustle Agreed. In fact, I would even say the Finns had a morally correct reason to get into the war to retrieve previously lost territories. However, they did "make a deal with the devil" to do so, whom they later turned on when the opportunity arose, so as to not be fully occupied by the other devil, the USSR. The Finns were not ideologues.
the Finns were well aware of the fate of their racial kinsmen the Estonians, and only Germany offered any assistance in avoiding that fate.
Estonians are the young brothers of Finland.
I've heard of that.
Sadly you forgot to mention how the Treaty of Tartu was considered a shameful peace by the Finnish ultranationalists. In fact one such guy shot himself as he was so saddened by the treaty. This already coloured our view on idea of Greater Finland and while these nutjobs public oustings were dealt with by banning the Lapua Movement they still mired the intelligentsia in the Academic Karelia Society.
Another thing to note is who the Finnish officers were. By WW2 the higher officer core was mostly made of former Jäegers. And many of them did also believe in the idea of Greater Finland and saving all Finns from the clutches of communism.
So there was the motivation and support for establishing Greater Finland in the Finnish military, intelligentsia and politics.
But it depends on what the borders would be like the thumbnail they would have gotten is the country that held the conference for Finnland and themselvs
If Germany looses land to Poland then Russia should lose land to Finland
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@@HistoryHustle that is why I think greater Finland should be a thing
I like how your Finnish flag behind you looks almost like the modern Russian opposition flag because you can't see the vertical part of the cross sometimes.
I understand.
F*ck them theya re just a bunch of gnz and milenial idiot wjo dont know anuthing and do t know what they want manipulatef by fools just like nemtzov.
I am saying this as a a gez i know my generation bery few are smart or itelligent in any way, the people are being peased are just douchebags.
I will never understand these type of arguments when the reality is there. How much did they take? They took exactly what they wanted, everything else is propaganda.
See video.
@@HistoryHustle I did. What you are doing is citing history revisionists (mainly communists) that after the continuation war started to spread these rumors about "Suur Suomi" that some right wingers used to push the war effort. What the real policy was what happened in reality, nothing else.
Finland survived Moscow barbarism, we didn´t , Finland being able to keep her democracy after so many wars with Moscow & world Marxism is a real miracle...with love From your Belarusian brother
Ok👍
Stalin showed mercy to Finland unfortunately
The name 'Karelia' can be surprisingly complicated.
Karelia's official defenition is:
A piece of eastern Finland and a stretch of Russian land between Finland and the artic sea (Not mutmansk and the Kola peninsula)
It's quite common for people to say Karelia when refering to the small part that is still part of Finland, and not the Russian land.
The Russian Karelia is inhabited by mostly Russians today.
Finland ever taking anything other than the Finnish/Karelian speaking land near our border was always unrealistic and ridicioulus.
That is why i roll my eyes whenever some foreigner suggests that Finland should take ALL of Karelia, or even Murmansk...
Thanks for sharing this additional information.
Kola is a different story but the eastern karelians deserved freedom and that would have been only succesful under the finnish state. There were 3 attempts to do that, and they failed. Your view of it being ridiculous comes from the finlandizized viewpoint that stems from this as a cope
Amateriush..
Ok.
not only excellent but also courageous video! Europe needs guy like you to achieve peace! Let heros be heros and let Nazis be nazis. Stay true with history!
Thanks for watching.
Why Finnish Army advanced into the Karelia? Some nationalist circles, as You mentioned earlier, were keen on creating bigger Finland for ideological reasons (clear minority of population = right-wing intellectuals). Others saw the situation of no borders with Soviet Union/Russia beneficial for the future of Finland. And then there was a military point of view: to defend Finland effectively (through the world war) it was necessary to shorten front lines as much as possible. Thus the Finnish Army created the doctrine of three isthmuses. Army was to advance to the line of three isthmuses in Karelia to preserve troops by shorter land front lines.
Thanks for sharing your insights.
Allot Thanks Sir Stefan for sharing this important content in this Significant video ( Now days) ...So Continuation war of Germany against USSR during WW2...Woke up Finland dreams for Greater Finland creation .Today NATO expansion Policy to wards Russia in every directions & Ukraine war shadows ( Westerners suspecting Loudly Final defeat of Russia ) waking up Greater Finland Projects( Expansion ) for Finland Democratic Regime ...So Now days issue is not Frightening from Russian Invading like Ukraine Thanks
Thanks!
Finland was trying to liberate their finnic lands from slavic occupation, today the lands where moscow and st petersburg are used to be finnio ugrian tribal lands, but since the 6century ad slavic hordes have waged continues war of extermination against finno ugrians, now if finland and estonia would loose the next war then that would mean the total anihilation of the finnic peoples, just look at a map of finno ugrians 1900 vs 2023 and you can see clear and dibrate effects of slavic genocide against native fins wich is still ongoing today as well not with mass shootings like in soviet times but by overflooding the natives with new russians
Source?
I would make a lousy leader. To me more territory just means more shit to take care of. 😆
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so disappointed about this video. If the author had done his research and homework he would know that
1. Russians attack first Finland 1941, and Finland join Germany only 3 days later
2. At the time, war was named "summer war", only later to Be known continuation war
3. Finland's objective was take back losses and raesonable buffer zone, for bargaining. Not creating so called greater Finland
4. The Fieldmarschal of Finland was on doubts at August 1941 If Germany will succeed or not, and was pretty sure at december 1941 of the Germany's defeat. Mannerheim had been a General Major on a Imperial Russian army, son he knew what he was duscussing about.
Problem this videos are, that author of the sources used are secondary and the results VERY biased.
Fun fact, the best description what happened at Finnish headquarters 1941-44, is the memoars of German General Erfurt who was pretty much present there at that time and he had also a doctor degree 🙂
Thanks for your reply. I refer to my sources.
@@HistoryHustle Russians attacked Finland first in 1941 by bombing Finnish territory. Finland joined Germany's attack only 3 days later. That should be mentioned because technically taken it was Soviet Union which made the first move of Continuation War.
It seems like the Finns only cared about Karelian areas, or they were only good at defensive operations and not offensive. The Finns should have been able to cut off Murmansk from the rest of the USSR. All in all, I think the Finns would have been better off trying to stay neutral.
They tried with the Germans but failed miserably. Those were operations called "Operation Silver Fox" and "Operation Arctic Fox".
@@Karpaneen wrong, Mannerheim didn’t allow any attacks againts the Murmansk railwayline. Because then soviets would’ve looked at us as aggressors.
In the future I'll cover more on this.
@@tsud165 What? 😁 When did Mannerheim say that?
Finnish querrillas/commandos (kaukopartio) repeatetly struck the Murmansk railway line and managed to damage it on many occasions but neither Finns nor Germans ever managed to destroy or capture parts of it completely. Read about the Majewski's expedition (Majewskin retki). That was propably the largest Finnish strike towards Murmansk railroad.
Edit. An english wikipedia article about this is attack is titled "Mai Guba attack".
Finland was a small nation with a small army. Defending Finland is one thing, rooting out dug in Russians defending Soviet territory was a very different matter. The terrain also did not lend itself to the spectacular advances seen in Operation Barbarossa.
Americans took the wrong side in this world war 2. Thanks to them my grand dad had to leave his home. We could have handled Russian attack in the last stages of the war, but because of americans, there was no reason to keep on fighting. That land belonged to us. That is why finns attacked. There is this allied propaganda, that somehow finns didn't support the war, but that is not true. Even today Finland is the only Axis state, that don't consider themself guilty of the war. There was every reason to try to fix the issue of Russia constantly attacking Finland. Soviets was way worse than nazi-germany was.
The world would be much safer with great Finland.
Who knows...
That Finland would capture territory from Sweden and Norway is laughable and lowers the credibility of your channel. There were no such serious idea.
The fact that you didn't watch the video is laughable.
@@HistoryHustle It does you a disservice to use a map of "Greater Finland" as clickbait. Not only is the map you used factually incorrect, but also dishonest.
Sure it's clickbait but as I mentioned in the video... Nah nevermind. Doubt you watched it.
@@HistoryHustle 1. You are using an image of Mannerheim overlaid on a "greater Finland" map. I challenge you to provide evidence that Mannerheim was a strong proponent of transferring territory by any means from Sweden and Norway. If you can't you are tarnishing the memory of this great Finnish hero.
2. I happen to have detailed knowledge of where Finnish is/was spoken as a first language in Sweden and your map is widely inaccurate. I won't speak for Norway, but I highly doubt your map is accurate there either.
This is constructive criticism, you can take it or leave it.
@@davidh3985 I think the image is based on Finnish-Ugric tribes including northern Swedish and northern Norwegian Saami people. But it's true Finland never dreamed on "liberating" their areas.
Very informative and interesting film. Unfortunately, we see Nazism once again raising its head in Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and now Finland. It appears that they don't want the historical facts to be known that after Britain warned the Finnish Government if it persisted in invading Russian territory Britain would be forced to regard Finland as an enemy. On 8 December 1941, Britain did declare war on Finland and Hungary, and Romania. Unlike Norway, Finland fought on the side of Nazi Germany and many Finns served with the German Waffen-SS. Despite the fact that Finland fought with Nazi Germany there was a long period of good relations with the Soviet Union and Russia after the war until now. Unfortunately, the present Finnish leadership is influenced by their fathers' stand during WWII. They seem to be lacking the vision of Urho Kekkonen who served as president from 1956 until 1982, during the troubled period of the cold war and they are now seeking revenge.
"we see Nazism once again raising its head in Ukraine, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and now Finland."
Where is this claim based on?
" many Finns served with the German Waffen-SS"
1,400 did. Not that many actually. Most of them weren't political (see video in 2 weeks from now). From the Netherlands 50,000 joined.
"Unfortunately, the present Finnish leadership is influenced by their fathers' stand during WWII"
They see Russia invading a neighbor country. Obvious they get nervous and are willing to join NATO.
this IS totally crap and BS. most likely Russian fake account delivering Fake news from Leningrad and should Be treated like that!
"Hello from St. Petersburg troll factory". Did you earn 10 rupias today?🤣
@@HistoryHustle Indeed. Those Finns joined the SS because they wanted to fight against Soviets but in Finland it was not yet possible.
Two links which might be of interest. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Karelia#Ethnic_groups en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union
Thanks for sharing.