Roman Scholar Describes Ancient China // 1st century AD // Pliny the Elder on the "Seres"
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- Опубліковано 22 жов 2019
- In recognition of the enthusiasm surrounding last week's video on China's perspective, here we have a video exploring the reverse.
There are however very few Roman accounts of China that have survived to us - and those that we do have are very limited. Here we have two short extracts from Pliny's magnum opus "Naturalis Historia", in which he describes what he knows of the people of Serica and its surroundings far to the east, and how they in turn affected the Rome he knew at the time. In the second extract he describes a mysterious people (who he again dubs "Seres") whom the people of "Taprobane" (modern day Sri Lanka) apparently crossed a mountain range to trade with.
As with our previous video on China, a lot of the locations (and indeed the peoples) mentioned are still debated by scholars. In the coming weeks we will further explore Ancient China's worldview, and descriptions they gave of other cultures that seemed wholly alien to them. Stay tuned for new videos, twice weekly.
How do we actually know about history? Voices of the Past is a channel dedicated to recreating the original accounts from the people who lived through events, or who lived far closer to them than we do today. We do this word for word, with an accompanying soundtrack of rousing music and images.
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Any nomadic tribe in Asia: exists
The Romans: ScYtHiANs
Attila: *LAUGHS IN HUN*
They were pretty much Scythian at that time. The Turkic expansion had not yet happened: Pliny the Elder died (damn Vesubius!) a decade before the Xiongnu were put in motion by the Chinese defeating them (and opening the Silk Road proper).
@@Killzoneguy117 laughs in Xiongnu
thEY EATETH RAW FLESH
Luis Aldamiz i thought scythians were turkic
China on rome: "let me tell you everything I can possibly think of"
Rome on China: uhhhhhh, they've got sheep
Christiaan Baron get over yourself
Christiaan Baron Where did you see this happen and on what occasion? I’ve lived in China a decent portion of my life and I’ve never seen or heard of this barbarity.
@Christiaan Baron white supremacist detected
Christiaan Baron pigs are just as smart and emotional as dogs. In India cows are holy, you’re not supposed to kill them. I don’t need to tell you about the horrors committed against pigs and cows in the west. Humans are cruel beyond belief to animals everywhere and hypocrites about it everywhere. Please stop letting your ego cause you to judge others so harshly
Christiaan Baron You’re right, this is a real festival, but you have clearly blown it way out of proportion. Nothing in the festival itself supports dogs being skinned and blow-torched alive. Did you personally see dogs being tortured and killed like this?
In my view, the killing and eating of dogs itself is no way worse than killing pigs or cows, which some studies have shown are even more intelligent and can feel more pain than dogs.
Also you cannot say that the Yulin dog meat festival is reflective of Chinese or Asian culture in general. That is a racist simplification. Even in China there is vocal criticism of the festival among the populace, and there are many ongoing campaigns right now to end it.
You made a relevant point, but did not do so well.
"they had good spices"
"They were good traders"
"They had art"
"They had animals"
It's almost like they were like every other civilization in the world!
Who would've thunk?
@@Menaceblue3 If you asked them, they went from thinking they were the only other civilized people in the world, to suddenly discovering there was another.
@Christiaan Baron bro u good?
@Christiaan Baron It's doggone good, tho
@@dylanmillar1563 I don't think he is good I think he can have PTSD.
And as Polish I underestand him. I love dogs, cats, horses, delphins I will not eat this animals. Maybe cos of different culture but some animals are considered as friends not lunch in my country.
„The Romans have many types of Jade.“
„The Chinese make good fabric.“
MinecraftPro15 it most likely just meant colored stones or gems
And, evidently, Chinese women wouldn't sleep with the guy
@Junius Argonon Rome actually prized their purple dye more. As it's manufacturing process was proprietary, and they wouldn't sell that knowledge. Their conflict went beyond trade disputes. Something to do with a promise a Roman made to their queen and didn't make good on. It's all sordid and petty. By the time war broke out, it was just justification for both sides wanting total control of the trade lanes in the Mediterranean. Good to keep in mind that there were no "good guys" back then. Even the ones people hold up as heroes were some kind of bastard or another.
@@zennoix9984 At the same time, the white man will go to bed with the little boy. Maybe because they are chicks like you
@@catice1205 bruh.... that's the most fcked up shit I have ever heard
Chinese historian: These people are amazing. How I wish I could see their lands!
Roman scholar: They are so far away, I question our priorities traveling so far, just to make my wife a coat...
both of those statements are lies, he said nothing of the sort. especially your first sentence
@@Lyle-xc9pg did you even watch the first video. he literally said how he wished he could travel to these far away lands.
@@Lyle-xc9pg ...That was the entire gist of the ending paragraph. "How mean and unworthy an end" is referring to the extravagant goods procured and the trip there is mentioned in "to what distant spots it sends to satisfy them..." . As for the Chinese Historian... yeah, it's true. Yu Huan compares a quote from Zhuangzi and says he wished he could visit the distant lands beyond China.
@@Lyle-xc9pg the Chinese historian lamented that he could not live longer to see all of western civilization for it was not his destiny
@@Lyle-xc9pg Balding Patriot's statements are not lies, they are summaries and paraphrases. Yes, the Chinese scholar did express regret that he could not travel that far and see for himself, yes, Pliny did express doubts about the values of a society that loved a particular kind of clothing so much they were willing to have people travel that far to trade in it. Pliny was never an admirer of ostentation, he considered simpler ways more virtuous.
I find it funny how Pliny the Elder basically ends this description of China by saying "buy local". The more things change ...
The Roman Empire had an issue with all its gold and silver heading east to pay for imported luxuries. They had a trade deficit with India and China and couldn't invade to take it back.
Not to mention Rome's economy was actually not all that great to begin with, so they can't afford to just keep importing stuff. Most of their provinces were losing them money than earning them. Ironically enough it was towards the downfall of the Empire that Rome's government got really rich, such as the Byzantines.
@@neurofiedyamato8763 Most of the moneys were lost on the modern army and walls, forts protecting the border. While having no colonies in Europe made a huge strain on the economy as you say. But that's why Rome was so appreciated.
shit... history repeats itself...
😳 literally all mediterranean countries suffers the same problem in the 21st century, which led to the euro crisis...
@@neurofiedyamato8763 Byzantine is a made up name. You mean Roman.
Next part: what china thought the roman empire thought about china
😂
it's on the list of lists of lists
@@madadisairam2958 which is strange considering all the times that china got conquered, fell into internal strife, and still struggles to become a first world country, instead of a third world country with a few first world country cities.
@@GodActio They are a first world country. They claim to be a developing country to reap the benefits of being a developing country but its a crock of shit. China has the most technologically advanced cities anywhere.
@@GodActio here the thing though. through all the internal strife, external invasion, china has never failed to eventual become the dominant world power once again. and in the ancient times it was always the center of civilization
China: There's this great empire on the other side of the world, magnificent and magical, prosperous and mighty, its such an amazing land, oh how i wish i could go there, i bet they're great!
Rome: Soooo beyond all the savages and empty lands there's like these mountains and rivers, and there's people there who make dresses. They're okay, i guess, pretty aight, y'know? I prefer it here tho.
Who knows how far they went, maybe they only saw outer cities.
It actually is quite interesting to see
The Roman Generals tended to study the cultures of others in extreme detail
Julius Caesar is famous for doing so and he is has shown to be rely on his years worths of studies for managing his allies, enemies, neutrals and own personal
So Romans not saying much about the Chinese other than their products and their landscapes may be very important to note
I believe they really do not gave much thought to something like culture when it was so far away because much can be lost in translation, imagination and recollection
I really think that the Romans were very businesslike minded people focussed more on organisation than on culture in comparison to the other cultures of that era
good Chinese food
@@MrDwarfpitcher yep, and also the persians were trying to prevent knoladge between the 2, more effectiv preventing romans to know more about chinese than vice versa.
Don't think China actually thought very highly of anyone who wasn't Chinese. From the dawn of man to today China is one of the most xenophobic racist nations (Kingdoms) that have ever existed.
Why are people arguing about a tweet from 2000 years ago?
because such is the nature of Tweets
I think it was called "TVITER" back then
I like how Chinese people were respectful towards Western Civilization in the other video but here there are a bunch of assholes trying to belittle Chinese Civilization on the basis of one 1st century AD tweet.
CFV 😂
@@unifieddynasty do you base your conclusion only on a mere translation and with no knowledge of Latin? I bet you do...
Romans visiting somewhere: "Absolutely barbaric!"
Then they burn and destroy proof of how that society actually was lol, but call others barbaric.
@@kendrasspongeasmr210 "What have the Romans ever done for us?"
"Well, there's the roads...and aquaducts...and Roman medicine..."
@@dubuyajay9964 They didn't told you Romans back then drink human urine for cure the illness. they also brush teeth with Urine, and use Urine to wash clothes. sell Human Urine was a big business in Rome.
@J Mireles Roman medicine added a lot of new things compare to Greek medicine... from conquered British island. (Barbarian's medicine but useful)
Kendra'sSponge ASMR so that make Romans ancient USA spreading Freedom while bombing other countries right?
We should all keep in mind of course, that this is not Rome writing about China, nor was the last video China writing about Rome. This was a single scholar writing about a country he knew barely anything about.
But we should also keep in mind that his knowledge about China didn't come from nowhere, he must had heard and read it from others.
@@trumpthechosenone1554 Same as the Chinese historian. They probably never visited each other's nation.
@@luciano9755 no the chinese historian in the last video spent 3 years on boat, and wrote a very detailed account of each city in the region of greece rome and Mediterranean countries as well as the rivers live stock coinage gems and trAde.
@@jkjkhardcore666 Well, he made it as far as Persia before the Persians stopped him and basically told him "Yeah, so the waters are really rough, you're not going to be able to get there for a few more years, how about we just tell you everything we know about Rome, will that be alright?"
@Sebastian Guevara
Ignoring all else, why the excessive amount of exclamation marks?
The sequel we've all been waiting for!
Just about what I was thinking!
Red Pill Overdose The sequel we need
slightly flat and disappointing like end game
Are there any Persian accounts of either Rome or China? Seems to me that they would know much more about the 2 empires.
Idk specifically about accounts, but Persia did a lot to prevent as much contact as possible between Rome in China in fear of them circumventing the middleman(Persia) or possibly forming an alliance
A lot of Persian records are gone, but they had plenty of contact with China, and you can see some remnants of their ancient attitudes to the Romans/Greeks in Ferdowsi's Shahnameh.
Hopefully he could give us more series of this lol
@@BrorealeK Persian records on the issue might be sparse, but the Chinese actually recorded a great deal about ancient Persia, including how Parthian kings would periodically send gifts to the Han Chinese royal court, for instance, exotic animals, as a diplomatic gesture that the Chinese interpreted as tribute to boost the domestic prestige of their own emperors. Emperor Huan of Han, who needed to bolster his legitimacy at home due to political scandals, interpreted the gifts received by Roman travelers and merchants in 166 AD (coming to China via Vietnam and the South China Sea) in the same way. He did so even though they were most likely not official representatives of Antoninus Pius or Marcus Aurelius & Lucius Verus. The difference with the Parthians, however, is that the Parthian kings actually had a regular known relationship with China.
Persians weren't big fans of wriiting.
"These guys are weird but they make cool clothing so I guess they're all right."
Sounds like Trump's saying >_
Trump 2020!
i found this American
It's so awesome that we ended up with two scholars at the very opposite ends of the ideological and temperamental scale.
Pliny the Elder as I'm sure many know was something of a virtuous traditionalist, always moaning on about good old Roman traditions and (as we see here) bemoaning how decadent and seductive silk dresses are.
Yu Huan meanwhile, was a romantic dreamer. He was a scholar obsessed with collecting information and writing about foreign lands. I don't know much about him personally beyond that, but I can also say that the period/government he served, the state of Cao-Wei, was similarly a kind of poetic and romantic type of state. Both the founders Cao Cao & Cao Pi were renowned poets, the ruling Cao family often favoured the company and work of liberal Taoists and other types of unorthodox scholars. And you can see that in Yu Huan's ending thoughts in the previous entry - the melancholic musing about how he is living briefly in a puddle in the hoofprint of a great ox. This kind of intellectual scene that was dominant in the Wei Dynasty did not sit well with the conservative Confucianist gentry (who would have very much agreed with Pliny in reverse - our Empire is the best, why the hell do we need to know about these other places and the stupid things they produce).
Fascinating
鱼豢写大秦的那段结语，很有庄子里面的小大之辩的风格
I have to say I much prefer Yu Huan's beliefs and way of thinking. He was also much more descriptive.
Yu Huan was great, but the cao wei regime is a shame. It is a dark time after the golden ages of Han. People were kidnapped from their lands, enslaved, to build tombs for the cao family. I've seen bricks in museums from these tombs, where I could directly read the curse carved by those slaves. Whole populations of cities were massacred on cao cao's order. Killing was standardized, and a request to cut the hand of criminals, instead of killing them, was seen as mercy. And among the ruins of the civilization, cao cao wrote his melancholic poems...which are not bad, but somehow feels sarcastic when I read them.
@@zwang3909 interesting, I didn't know about the tombs. But in terms of your other brutalities you have to put it in the context of the three kingdoms. The Wu regime also massacred cities and settlements regularly, against places like the Xiakou and against the Yue people. The Shu-Han regime meanwhile, the history on them seems great on paper - but the person who wrote that history was literally a former subject of Shu-Han, and when you start reading between the lines it gets a lot worse. There's a lot of hints that Shu-Han was an austere warlord state which just spent decades trying to invade Wei. For example they kept no court records and histories compared to Wei & Wu. As another example the final census of Shu had 900,000 inhabitants - of which 90,000 were soldiers. It was essentially a warlord state where 10% of the population was under arms.
Agreed it was a dark age, no disputing that. I'm just pointing out that Wei was remarkably different in having large amounts of unorthodox people at court - mostly people from the small landowning class as opposed to the large landowning gentry.
China writes eloquently about Rome...
Rome on China: *Uhh, they make dress*
Jesus, people make jokes. Don't you get that? Welcome to UA-cam.
The Romans also said China is a Bigger Greece, i guess Romans didn't even know The Race is different. LOL
well he did an accurate description of the travel (in opposite to the other guy) and he guessed (and was right!) about why they were so secretive. The other guy leaves a long description of trading stuff and a lot of wrong stuff about culture and politics
@@withastickangrywhiteman2822 back then they didn't really see "race"
illegal_opinions no actually race is made a up construct in modern history. “Race” was made up to give certain people more power and keep them there. Specially America. People back then were more about tribes and lineage. Like anarcotraficanre said. You’re too indoctrinated to even understand there is only one race. The rest is properganda to brainwash and divide.
The Roman sounds so unimpressed compared to the Chinese Scholar. Really a "Yeah... It's 'aight" vibe.
Well, several wonders of the world were sitting in the roman empire at the time
well to be fair Rome only had contract with China through the Silk Road, but more specifically through Parthia and merchants from Parthia. You know Parthia, the nation that was pretty much Romes rival for pretty most of its history. A nation that would do everything in its power to avoid China and Rome from doing any kind of alliance and invading it. Secondly Rome was in a trade deficit with China. Again it couldn't move its good UP the silk road due to Parthia and also China's nature of not wanting foreign goods.
Pliny wasn't really the imaginative sort, he was a very pragmatic philosopher. This is from the guy who practically invented the concept of the encyclopedia in the west, being terse and skeptical of how much effort the whole thing was is par for the course for him. The Chinese guy was apparently something of a dreamer with wanderlust, so of course his descriptions would be more detailed and prosaic, he finds the whole idea fascinating, while Pliny was probably just fulfilling his obligation of "Well, I'm trying to compile and summarize literally everything we know about the world, so I guess I should include a section on that really far away place silk comes from, but ugh... it's so far away, we barely know anything, and it is just not that interesting..."
well Western Han Dynasty of China is probably several times the GDP of rome at the time.
China: Considers Rome an equal
Rome: *Barbarian*
Yeah that seems like Rome
Edit: feel like I need to stress that this is meant as a joke. Not a serious evaluation of history
Pretty much the take away I was expecting. To Roman's there was really only 2 nations, "Rome" and "Not Rome".
yes but actually no, rome were in the buyers position mostly on the silk route.. so the traders naturally tried to keep them not only in the dark about china.. but to also downplay China to keep Rome from putting feelers out for direct contact. Such a thing would have been disastrous for trade and military middlemen such as the Persians.
Persia and other middlemen tried to keep them apart... they probably even spread rumors against China.
Doesn't seem like China. Ironic, right? China, the nation that saw itself as the best for millennia (heck, they even do today) seemed to respect Rome, based on these excerpts alone.
Of course, this is the account of one man and one man only. There were likely other Romans who probably had more to say about the Chinese. Then there's also the fact that back in the day, Asia was more philosophical while Rome thought in terms of solid business and practicality.
For the Chinese I think it may have something to do with manners about how you speak of others more than how they compared themselves to Rome.
Lol this video is 1/3 the time of the other video.
Chinese descriptions = elegant, Roman descriptions = blunt and to the point
Of course, to an advanced culture like Rome, China would have been practically provincial. Nothing to write home about and not worth the effort.
@@CedarHunt If they had only known...
@@majungasaurusaaaa Yeah, if they saw China today they'd know their initial impression was accurate.
@@CedarHunt Seems Legity
@@CedarHunt Yeah, china today is a hell hole.
I love the text you've added that gives context on what is being discussed. Without it, the place names mentioned are meaningless to laypeople like myself. Please add more of it!
Haha trying my best!
I was hoping we would hear the other part of the story. Thank you.
c0mpu73rguy this isn’t a novel lmao it’s actual history chill out
@@dogbirth6662 Whats not chill about his comment?
to some people Actual History from which you can Learn and gain understanding from in regards to a group of people is way better then a random Novel.
Richard Richard that’s not what I am implying, you put that implication into my words.
1. The “other part” of the story has been uploaded long before this, dealing with the Chinese documentation and observations of Roman habits, customs and temperaments. Further more their statement holds a tone of annoyance in it, as if the UA-camr who made this video is supposed o cater to their whim and theirs alone until they are satisfied. This observation on my part was quickly confirmed when I administered a polygraph test to aforementioned party. Please do not try try and blatantly throw disinfo on me when I am merely disclosing the truth. I hope your brutish and ignorant ways are either rectified or terminated immediately. Thank you. -chief of staff
Andrew McAllister I know. I meant hearing about what romans thought about the chinese empire. I know some have travelled there too.
Chinese on Romans: "This kingdom is incredible! Such riches and wonders and Grandeur!"
Romans on Chinese: "Yeah they look like Mongols and don't want to be mistaken for them so they don't get out much and we gotta go to them. Pain in the arse getting here just because my wife wants a soft dress, smh."
hahahahaha
At that time no Mongols.....Only the Scythians.
It was a long ass way in fairness. Better to conduct trade through third-parties instead.
The Romans have never been praised in Chinese history books. I heard about such a country from the Persians. At that time, the Chinese only liked doing business, whether they were Yuezhi people, Persians, or Indians.
Quoth the Roman: It's too far to conquer and the trade goods leave a lot to be desired. Oh, and they talk funny.
Fascinating! Although as a Chinese myself I couldn't tell this was about China without knowing it first, still fascinating.
The painting shown at 1:45 is a depiction of *silk ironing* by the famous artist/emperor Huizong of Song Dynasty.
I was guessing what the "wool found in their forest" was and whether it meant silk. Although silk is native to China and had existed several millenniums before the Roman time, and the "found in forest" connection could be established through the leaf-eating silkworms, but silk has nothing akin to wool. The description of processing doesn't quite match either. As far as I know silk making is basically pulling and spooling threads from boiled cocoons.
So could it be cotton, which at the time had been cultivated in India and Southwest China (e.g. Yunnan)?
It's silk, the Romans just didn't know about silkworms, they most likely thought silk came from trees.
It was silk, and the Romans were aware of wild silk produced by silk worms in the East of their empire, they just didn't know that the cultivated silk from China was the same thing and never tried domesticating the small amount of silk worms found in their empire. They would unravel the silk to try and figure out what it was and then would reweave it into clothing to not be dependent on expensive imports from the east, but couldn't figure out how to do it like the Chinese or what it really was. It is similar to the Chinese with Roman glassware. The Chinese were fascinated with glass but did not understand what it was until Roman craftsmen travelling to Vietnam showed them how to make it. More conservative and stoic Romans absolutely hated silk, however, and saw it as a waste of money and much too sexual for a Roman woman to wear with how it clung to her body and could be nearly translucent. Wearing silk clothing was a means of flaunting your wealth and beauty though in the eyes of the more liberal Romans.
@@hoathanatos6179
I don't think this disdain for silk is extinct even now. The adjective "silky", applied to a person, isn't meant to be complimentary.
China was soo far away that the person who wrote this probably heard many stories who passed through many people . its probably everything you said combined
.
@@hoathanatos6179 Thanks!
History outside the classroom is almost always more interesting than what taught in the classroom.
and usually less relevant
@@user-wb7ez9ud4p you must be young
@@mrwhat5094 just sayin'. "casual" historical stories have a statistically smaller chance of being helpful than history that you specifically learn or research for a specific purpose.
@@user-wb7ez9ud4p and im just saying, that reading the Commentarii de Bello Gallico doesnt give you an accurate depiction of Vercingetorix.
I'm honestly so glad that I found this channel, I'm in college now, and I feel like it was never conveyed very well in high school that ancient Rome and ancient China were connected by trade.
We basically learned about western history very heavily, and then we had a short chapter on all of Asia.
Welcome!
Sounds like my experience back when I was in school (many years ago). All the Asian history books had 25% devoted to everything which happened before 1800 and the other 75% was Europe beating up on the Asians and the modern era. These authors seemed to think that the Asian (and other non-Europeans) spent thousands of years waiting to be conquered. Even then I knew better than that.
This video should be titled:
ANCIENT ROME REACTS TO ANCIENT CHINA!
Perfect
Missed a trick didn't I
Pliny, describing the ends of the earth in order to call out people whose clothes he didn't like. Some things never change.
😂
I was asking for this. Thanks.
"The land was occupied by inhabitants"1:15 I love a good observation.
probably sounded better in Latin "Hic Habitat...habitatem? (?)"
Romans on China: Fantastic Fabric and Where to Find Them
The Chinese were more accurate about the Romans than the Romans were about the Chinese.
We just happened to find one detailed text from China and one less-detailed text from Rome. It's pure chance. I'm sure there are/were better accounts from Rome that we're not aware of or have been lost to time.
Accurate? Nah, they are all hearsay collages.
@@GoldenOrder I wouldn't say that Pliny the Elder - the author of the Naturalis Historia and of this piece - had poor writing skills. I just don't think he was that bothered about Asia.
Chinese account was much more mythical and poetic, filling in the blanks with their own legends. The romans wrote what they knew and nothing more.
This guy is a much better historian than the previous one
“They feed on human flesh” seems to be a very common accusation in the ancient world.
@@jannguerrero Humans don't eat humans it's disgusting always has been always will be.
@@ThexXxXxOLOxXxXxLook up "Donner Party" and tell me that humans don't eat humans.
@Potatoes
Oh summer child. Humans do what we need to survive. Look at soviet Era Russia, all of chinese history, pioneer age America.
I want to know what both these empires thought about dogheads.
dog heads are the ultimite life form lol
Cynocephali are "people" (baboons) living in Egypt and Ethiopia (Sudan) who worship God (the Sun) every morning and are dear to the other God, Thot, patron of priests and scribes. Just ask the right people: the Egyptians!
@@LuisAldamiz what do you mean
@@khalilbarkallah9998 - Those are cynocephali: baboons, which the Egyptians considered somehow related to Thoth. There's no mystery about the cynocephali (dogheads) except people believing they were humans out of Egyptian accounts and somewhat hot imaginations. Just look at any baboon, they look like dog headed people, totally so. Just mix that with some Anubis statue and Medieval imagination and voilá: humans with dog heads!
And souls, of course: animal means "with anima", i.e. "with soul".
@@GoldenOrder - Animal = "with soul" or "soul-ly".
I've never heard someone so uninterested in a far away land from ancient times. It's honestly remarkable...
This channel is greatly under subscribed. It is one of best historical channels on UA-cam.
Yayyy
Pliny the Elder always came across as a smug know-it-all who didn't really know all that much. Nice to see this account did not disappoint in that regard.
Pliny the Elder "exceeded the normal human height, had flaxen hair and blue eyes . . " "The rest of their information was a similar nature communicated by our merchants."
The Kushan Empire of the Yuezhi was at it's apex at this time, these Sychtian peoples were pushed southwest by the expanding Xiongnu nomads on northesast Asia steppes. They had dipolmatic ties to China & their elders visited the Han Chinese.
Yuezhi, Tocharians, Sogdians were Scythian peoples who devoloped into wealthly cosmpolitian cultures from the trade of the silk roads. These Indoeuropean peoples "Scythians" recorded by the Han empire were commonly tall with full beards, red or blonde hair, deep blue or green eyes, & high noses.
Etymologies of ancient ethnic words for Scythians in old Iranian Scythian - Skundra - Sogdian - Saka.
All very similar to Pliny's terms Seres or Seras for the far eastern peoples.
only one thing, the tocharians and scythians were quite different though. sogdians were scythian but tocharians were not really scythian. the scythian& sogdian languages belong to eastern iranian while the tocharian language is in it's own branch. also tocharians were mostly agricultural but scythians were nomadic. they just lived really near so they might be intermarriages, but two different groups of people.
@master universe When Pliny the Elder said“& made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking, have no language of their own for communicating their thoughts”, the ostentatious Roman perspective reminded me of what the roman culture thought of the Scythians.
The Khontan of Tarmin basin was a Saka-buddhist kingdom with the Tocharians living under the rule of Saka(Scythians). This is why when Pliny the Elder described the people with caucasian features I thought Saka or Scythians was closer to what was being conveyed by Pliny than Tocharians mentioned in the video. At this point in history the Khonatan, Sogdian, Yuezhi, Saka, & Tocharian where all very cosmopolitan & had influences from Hellenstic Greece, India, & China,. The Han Histories say the Dayuan & Ta-Yaun were urbanizes dwellers living in walled cities & manufacture & drank wine. The Scythians were the origins of the heavenly horses famed for raw speed & power over the Trojan military horses & so desired by Han Empire to fight the Xiongnu confederacy.
The Tocharim descended from the Afanansievo culture but later intermingled with the Saka descendants of the brother Yamnaya & Andronovo cultures; all groups being part of the bronze age Kurgan mound builders & horse lords of western steppes. The Turks, Huns, Mongals tribes where part of the Xiongnu confederation of the eastern steppes.
Ahh, yes now I see, thanks master universe for pointing that out. silk=serica & seres in latin derived from greek serike & seres, so the Seres (Northern Chinese), Sinae (Southern Chinese) Serica (China) “land of silk”.
Kaniskha the Great was a patron of Buddhism, the Kushan culture spread religion, concepts, ideas & influence of between Iran, Bactria, India, the Tarmin Basin, & China, with buddhist text over 30,000 new words where introduced into the Chinese language at this time illustrating the central crucible of multiculturalism that the Kushan Empire was during the period.
There is always a bit of truth in legends. I love history and don't know how you popped on my page but I'm grateful you did! God Bless everyone.
Love your videos! Keep up the great work
Thanks!
I watched the other video, of the chinese accounts on the romans, by which I was no less than astounded, and I cannot believe how incredibly lucky I am to be able to see this one too. To me, these accounts bring to mind the fog of war of age of empires series. It is as if one empire was in the dark area of the other's map and they could only assume a few things based on a third party. Amazing.
I like your series for these interesting geographical monikers. I'm naming my farm on rune factory 5, Hyperborea and their people Seres.
The vid was only posted three hours ago and already recommended! I've never seen your channel before!
Welcome!
New subscriber. I enjoy these short clips. It would be awesome if these short stories into the past, also included old maps? They too would add visually of the story.
Hell yea its here
Hurrah!
Well, that was... short.
The Roman way, short and efficient
@@elroma7712 less fun though
From the Roman view, not much to talk about.
CedarHunt Hmmm... or lazy.
CedarHunt Plus... he didn't really talk about China as much as he talked about his wife's dress.
The torkarians have been some of the most interesting people to me for a while. They definitely have varying levels of mixtures. Which is what makes them so unique and interesting to learn more about. Their language probably was a true creole language mixed indo-European elementals with local tongues too. Very happy to hear them possibly being mentioned here.
There is evidence in Tocharian manuscripts that their language wasn't really a creole, but quite a regular Indo-European language with some Sanskrit influence due to spread of Buddhism in the region.I think the author confuses Tocharians with Han Chinese.When he says they are very tall and have blue eyes he refers to Tocharians but when he says they "make grunting sounds" he refers to the Han Chinese language as it sounded very strange to Romans rather than an Indo-European language like Tocharian.Maybe the author mixed them up, but there's also a possibility that the author describes only the Tocharians and also find their language "grunting" because the Han Chinese people were too far to be known by the Romans and most probably never had an idea of how the Han Chinese language sounded like.
Thanks for the insight into the time. Amazing.
The ancient Chinese historian, Yu Huan, was deeply curious about "Da Qin" (the Roman Empire). But he also knew that Persia stopped the Romans from travelling the overland Silk Road to trade directly with the middle kingdom. It's kind of sad that the Persians were the middlemen who had intentionally blocked both the Chinese and the Romans from establishing direct contact with each other.
Yu Huan on "Da Qin" (the Roman Empire):
"I am limited to travelling on foot and living in the puddle of the hoof print left by an ox.
But, oh, how my thoughts fly to the eight foreign regions."
He wanted to see Rome.
Ancient Chinese historian, Yu Huan: "How I wish to travel to Rome."
Pliny the Elder: "It's too damn far, the Persians are in the way, and the silk dresses aren't worth my time."
They didn't want to get double teamed.
chinese: far at the west there is a glorious empire that i heard is so rich and strong , the population is so advanced and
roman: i think they make dress
Another fabulous video. Voices of the past- I know the sources are much harder to find, but do you think we could have some voices of the ancient women too? Keep up the fab work, I'm a fan :)
Great video! Would be cool with some Cossack or mongol related stories. They were special in many ways.
Keep it up mate, cheers.
Best regards
Lejonet
I wish this was more in-depth like the Chinese equivalent; I would have loved to see how the Romans would have interpreted Chinese government and whatnot, and how close their account got to reality. Shame, seems the Chinese heard more about the Romans than vice-versa, even if a lot of it was skewed or outright wrong.
Most records were burned or lost in some manner.
though it seems like some Roman traders actually reached China or even got an audience with the emperor, at least it is in Chinese records (while nothing came out of that, no bigger contact like emperors exchanging letters or official embassy), while nothing about visitors from ''Seres'' in Rome...
I LOVE this channel! Better than documentaries. Just wish they were longer (but you can't control that I suppose). How about when the Chinese first encounters the Japanese. I believe there is a written account of that too
ua-cam.com/video/wKREfmcEsEA/v-deo.html
Great idea
Zennoix riel3620 Yea that video is great too, but in this storytelling direct quotation-style, it'd be even more fantastic ^__^•
I love your channel! Thank you
Thanks for watching! 😁
I wish if You can put english subtitles in the video, because some words are hard to understand... however great channel, keep up the good work!
Can you do a video on what Ancient India thought of Rome and China?
Is India in ancient a country?
@@tanhaoze I think it's more accurately was many countries, just like what is now China was more than one country over time.
@@tanhaoze Known collectively in the west as Hindustan.
He can’t because Indians didn’t write down much history.
@@tanhaoze the Maurya Empire was much india
And what a birthday gift this is!
happy birthday!
You have a great channel mate
Thanks! Glad you enjoy it
Lovely video. Thank you Ser...hope this notification suits you well ;)
Clearly the Roman and the Chinese man used two completely different travel agents.
This is the third or fourth Sino / Greco-Roman themed video to appear in my suggestions recently without any related interest on my part. What are you on about, UA-cam?
UA-cam knows what's good
This gets me so excited for the future of mankind. Imagine a far future Astronaut explorer describing the population of another planet.
Very interesting! 👍🏻
Regular Empire Reviews
1:23.... "I am iron man..."
There you go ua-cam.com/video/yhumujgzBoM/v-deo.html
IMAO I was thinking exactly the same
Omg it sounds like it
LMAO😂
Thank you Plinio, very cool.
would love any description of south american civilizations next, that'd be awesome
My favorite part is where he decides since he can't understand the language that they just must not have one. If you get reading old texts you find that such assumptions are so stereotypically roman!
Pliny the Elder on Chinese "Seres": "they're on off inoffensive manners"
Xiongnu, Koguryeou/Fuyu, Tibetan Empire and Yuezhi on Chinese: "I don't think so... "
By that he meant they were not "danagerous barbarians" as the peoples he described for the lands in between, particularly the alleged Anthropophagi. That phrase has a context and should be read as "they are civilized, even if they look like barbarian Siberians".
It has to do with Chinese culture. Chinese are extraordinarily hospitable and will always use indirect language to convey meaning. Cultured Chinese are less brusque than their peers in the West owing to their Confucian tradition.
All of those expect for Xiongnu, were all indifferent names...
A very good video msdhanju
Dude you've got 50k subscribers now!!
Excellent! Checkout Ammianus Marcellinus (Book 23.6) for some later Roman accounts of the Far East. I will be posting some maps of the Seres in the second part of my lecture on Roman-Taprobana contacts (ancient Sri Lanka)
I watched all you're videos regarding SL.... thanks for the info Doc......
Description about Chera, Chola and Pandyan Kingdoms from "Periplus of the Erythraean Sea" and "Weilüe" please !!!
Second.
This channel should have a million subscribers
I shared to my history nerd group chat and everyone loves it
Please can you do more on The Arab/Islamic Empires , The ottomans and places like Abbasid Baghdad And Muslim Spain like Córdoba , which was known as the light of the world !
Great vid
I need to know if there is a Spanish version of this type of channel. My parents would love to watch this, but they don't understand English very well
Could probably just add a translation into spanish, if the video maker allows it.
Luckily there are probably spanish translations of the original texts (Pliny's texts for sure, but very doubtful about the Chinese ones)
Fascinating how the Chinese scholar we heard from last week was dispassionate, even a bit melancholy to not see for himself was he was describing. Yet, here, we hear a narrative dripping with scorn and belittling a place not yet seen by the writer. How different these scholars and the approach to the research. How much it is deeply appreciated to hear the eager scholar last week, as opposed to this curmudgeon.
Part of it is certainly due to the voices the narrator chose and the translation he used. Pliny the Elder was an immensely curious scholar who created the fist known encyclopedia, the Naturalis Historia (of which this video uses an excerpt of), which became the model for all encyclopedias written since and is one of the most important primary sources on Roman knowledge and culture.
Take these quotes of him, which paint quite a different picture:
"Indeed, what is there that does not appear marvelous when it comes to our knowledge for the first time?"
And, perhaps the most commonly known expression traced back to him: "Fortune favours the brave."
James Richmond I need to say I’m chinese so that my views are slightly biased but chinese are taught at the time to love learning and never judge what is unclear, so the attitude of the write made sense, however the Roman writer seems to be of bad education, to belittle your enemy(not in this case) is idiocy
@@forlornpreponderance2299 he's not belittling anyone. He's writing about natural geography, not primarily concerned with the people's and cultures. Besides, China and Rome had different literary styles, and so did those two writes, so we are comparing apples and oranges, really
Curmudgeon? HAVE YOU SEEN THE FUCKING PRICES ON THE SILK? DAMN
It's genetic. Eastern curiosity vs. western insecurity. You could see it 2000 years ago, and you can see it in this comments section.
That is why the East always triumphs in the long run--Asia is to Europe as Europe is to Arabia. Less religious, emotional, and more sensing and rational.
The age of innovation was just a stroke of luck resulting from the Atlantic ocean being easymode compared to the Pacific. Now we enter the lategame, and China is the ultimate late game carry.
That was fascinating. Any idea what Pliny's source was for this? In places he seems to be writing as if from first hand knowledge, but I know that can't be right.
@@Rogerever Very interesting, thank you.
One thing to keep in mind is that there were several accounts of China written by Roman scholars and vice versa but they didnt make it into this video. This one was chosen to make it seem like Rome in general looked down on the Chinese and the Chinese thought very favourably of Rome.
What's Arabs old books say about them? Check out Ibn Batuta and his written adventure
yessss
I doubt Arabs heard about China at those times.
@@turcoslav9942 Arab scholars emerged during the Islamic Golden Age, that is, around 700AD onwards, so it will be a later period but it will probably more accurate.
Both of these accounts sound like they are second hand descriptions provided by other people (merchants and travelers). It sounds like Pliny examined the evidence and took what he thought was believable and left out the rest. They are hardly helpful for understanding the Chinese people of that ancient age.
fliegeroh This video is for entertainment purposes, not for teaching what ancient Chinese or Romans were like.
But they are helpful in understanding the thoughts of scholars like Pliny and the way Information was distributed in Ancient times. All accounts of history only shed light on a particular piece of reality. There are no objective sources in written form.
Yeah, but it kinda helps in historiography, it helps us study how ancient romans watch their world, their bias, their interpretation of stuff, and how the ancient historians pick their sources, etc. Take an example, Herodotus’s description of Persia is equally bullshit, and Xi-Wang-Mu Yu Huan mentioned is actually a legendary figure mentioned in the ancient classic Shan Hai Jing, which the classic says she lived on a mountain in the far west and everything can be found on that mountain - Yeah, he mix legends with real geography together. These all are inaccurate to a certain degree, but they are still helpful in aiding us to understand the worldview of the ancient people.🤔
I mean your right, but your acting dismissive of these videos. you are right that these videos are bad for examining the culture being talked about (china in this case) but but they are valuable for understanding the culture producing them. this actually tells us a lot about how the Roman's viewed the outside world and tells us a lot about the roman tradition of history Plinni clearly did interview a bunch of Merchants and Travelers then he threw away the stories he thought were unbelievable or unlikely and published the rest as probable fact.
Chinese Historian clearly did the same collecting many stories from travelers and such then he published all or most of them, then freely admitted they were stories and Rumors about a land he will never visit.
Indeed. Pliny collected many travellers' tales to write his Natural History.
What is interesting is the contrast.
The Chinese had a considerable but very garbled account of ancient Rome, derived mainly from Iranian merchants, the Romans barely knew China existed.
Crazy how this Roman scholar went to china made it there safely took account of it all, then came back to Rome to share his story this story is preserved all this now and now we are listening to it 2000 years later in a youtube video. Thats insane
He never actually went there himself, this account is more of a compilation of sources he had, some of which were probably not very reliable.
The much awaited sequel
Hurrah!
An audiobook I listened to recently mentioned that someone came to the Chinese emperor around 100 or 200AD if I remember correctly and said they were there on behalf of the Roman Emperor. The Chinese emperor showered them with gifts to take back to Rome but it turns out it was a con and they were impostors. Their stunt was not discovered to be fake for centuries after.
chinese historian: holy shit guys look at all the stuff these guys have, wish I was there
roman scholar: people travel all the way from there through cannibals and beasts just to sell silk? what the actual fuck?
One thing is sure: Serica and Seres are really cool names the Romans gave to China.
Would it be possible to attach sources in video descriptions ? Thanks in advance.
basically me when I get out my room
Here's why there are differences in the descriptions:
The Chinese guy travelled to Rome.
The Roman guy compiled accounts of China.
The Chinese sounded like one of his main audiences were those involved in trade. China usually was not interested in expansion beyond its own borders. They usually assimilated any foriegn influence that conquered them.
Rome had a broader interest in ideas since they absorbed them. They were less concerned with far flung trade networks and more on threats and expansion.
remember, the Chinese guy didn't go to Rome, he also just compiled records.
Not exactly true, they definitely were interested in expanding their borders, and did so very consistently, which is why China today is as big as Europe with as much ethnic differences. The ones who "conquered them" only happened twice through History, which is the Manchu, and the Mongols were only there for about 80 years before being kicked out. The only times they weren't interested in expanding, was when they hit the deserts to the west, seas and jungles to the south - which were pretty much useless to them for agriculture.
Which is why today you still have Tibetans, and Uighurs looking to seperate from China. Han and Tang dynastys basically made their way all the way over Tibet to the Abbasid caliphate.
We really haven't changed much.
Travel & fashion channel has been around for millennia!
Though most of it is basic and many are having a good time comparing and making fun of the differences between accounts of the past two video translations... it's important to remember these are only two version of two people's accounts. It does not represent what everyone from each land would think if they each had a decent trip either way. The Romans obviously did it the hard way, exploring north and possibly seeing lands of which we can hardly imagine the wildness.
Any direction would likely send you in danger back in those days.
I wish I could safely see what they saw while traveling. I know the focus here is on the civilizations of the time, but frankly I'm interested in what animals they saw and what the land looked like before even more deforestation and cities and more people showed up everywhere. Yes there are still vast forests today, but back then people hadn't made it a habit yet to dig up and take resources from every corner, build even more cities and garbage everywhere, and well... make more people. I see enough of my own kind everyday, and enough think it's great to always have economic growth no matter what, idiotically ignoring the obvious problem that it can't keep expanding like this LOL!
So yes, I get distracted by the over-dramatic and loose pace of the narration at times, but I really like these videos that help me imagine a more raw and simpler time. I wouldn't survive, likely, but I'd like to see what things were like back then. You know it would be a hell of a lot more than just some notes taken by one person. But these notes get it started. It's amazing to think that person was really there. They had a life, maybe a significant other or someone they loved, a favorite pet, food they liked to make or find every week. Every day they woke up in that time period and had a very different life than us. We're actually hearing their words.
I'm sorry to be that guy but you're missing an entire sea on that map in the begining the Aral
Maybe it's a map of how it is now :D
@@RedbadofFrisia it is. It don't actually matter I was just pointing out xd
The Seres - 'flaxen hair, blue eyes' - could be Afghans?
Crumphorn there were many Caucasian tribes that match that description back then.
@@user-cf4eb4is2d aren't the Uighur Muslims in China similar racially to Europeans?
Secret Agent uyghurs did not settle in western China until the ~9th century
Caucasian people showed chinese how to do much of agricultural things. They lived in china look up the mummies
lalala blablabla what bs is this? Mummies in Xinjiang yes, though they did not have more advance agricultural technologies than the Chinese and they were merely city states that relied heavily on trade and herding animals, not necessarily agriculture as the lands in Xinjiang does not suit agriculture very well.
Earliest peoples in China were East Asians, Caucasians never settled in China(han Chinese lands), ancient China and modern Chinese borders are very different.
thanks!
Thanks for watching!
Now it is complete 😌👌
Mmmm satisfying
Interesting he mentioned about the blue eyed people, there are actually still a small number of Chinese people who are white, basically Russian central Asians, but they live within the borders of western China.
No, they weren't "Russians" or Slavs of any kind, but they were Indo-Europeans, basically Tocharians, the Yuezhi Kushanas and Iranian speaking peoples like the Saka Scythians. They lived in what is now Xinjiang and Gansu provinces, both of which came into the Chinese imperial orbit during the late 2nd century BC with the military campaigns of Emperor Wu of Han, who conquered and colonized Gansu while making the Tarim Basin city-states into tributary vassals and clients of the Chinese Western Han Empire. He achieved that by forcing the flight of the Mongolic nomadic Xiongnu confederation from the area and for that matter Zhang Qian had previously visited the region seeking allies against the Xiongnu, such as the Yuezhi (a diplomatic venture that was ultimately unsuccessful, but still introduced to China for the first time the Hellenistic Greek and Iranian civilizations of Central Asia and beyond).
Oh no,there are also blue eyes Malaysians and Africans.Does blue eyes only belong to indo-europeans???
@@turcoslav9942 does africans and Malaysians are blue eyed because they are mixed with Europeans.
@@turcoslav9942 genetic mutations could exist but I think it's clear he's talking about people with light hair and light colored eyes. Of course there are more "white people" in central Asia and Europe, it's not surprising.
@@nelsonr1467 no
the "chinese" with blue eyes are definitely not han Chinese. they are most likely people from the steppes.
This is how we know history. Not some official book written by the victors. It's piecemeal from what texts we have found over the centuries. It's not a huge conspiracy
The Roman spoke only about the Product/Merchandise For Romans like a salesman pitch and not even the Culture that much now that is Epic right here