@@jinjunliu2401 Not necessarily. The Greco-Roman geographer Ptolemy actually mapped out the South China Sea and Gulf of Thailand, albeit inaccurately, and his description of "Cattigara" was most likely Oc Eo, Vietnam, then part of the Champa Kingdom that bordered the Chinese Han Empire's province in northern Vietnam. The Chinese Book of Later Han talks about a Roman embassy coming this way by sea in 166 AD.
@@jinjunliu2401 Chinese sorces have mentioned couple roman embassies visiting chinese court in 2nd and 3rd century. But it's debatable wether they were official missions or private entrprises.
I'm just glad they didn't actually decide to go south into the Arabian Peninsula by land. If the heat didn't kill them then the nomads there would have. And I don't know anything about Parthian infrastructure, but couldn't have somebody pointed them north on some road to Ctesiphon and then Rome?
@a z Parthia likely wouldn't have wanted Han to know of Rome's existence on their western frontier. Han would've likely seen Rome as an ally against Parthia for Han's own Central Asian ambitions.
Ben A. True, it’s the same theory from Luo guanzhong, the author of “ Three Kingdoms”: “The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide.”
While it is true China has zero savage battle experience for decades, it is equally true that the US has zero experience managing a lasting civilization. China opened the Silk Road. Yet, not everyone would be savvy enough to benefit from it. The Brits imposed the Opium Road. Yet, not everyone had the power to resist it. All roads led to Rome. Yet, not everyone could become Rome, despite centuries passed. Western powers did seem however, to adopt Chinese inventions of the gunpowder and magnetic compasses to good global colonial effect. Even the influence of Christianity couldn’t have spread, without the revolutionary impact of Chinese printing tech. That’s why Gutenberg was voted the man of the last millennium.
Almost all Chinese historic record about Romans(Da Qin 大秦), are positive, if not too exaggeratedly praising. You can assume it's like Marco Polo praising the Yuan dynasty, saying Chinese roads were paved with jades and ivory, palaces were built by gold. Chinese records praised the political system of Roman(and later Byzantine) empire and its administrative bureaucrats, saying it enable an empire larger than their own to function and prosper in an unimaginable efficiency. Given the facts that there were seldom Chinese who has really been there, most of the description might come from merchants or bluffing envoys.
And on the other side we have "Um, these Chinese have gem stones and silks, and our women... um, ruin our purses with all those Chinese products. Damn you, womz."
This still happens. Chinese views of America/Europe even today are excessively positive, and as a result most Chinese who travel to western countries feel the "Paris Syndrome" when reality fails to hold up to expectations.
@@caiawlodarski5339 Probably because the Roman Empire, while big, the center of it was mostly water because of the Mediterranean Sea, while China's empire was all land.
I imagine they were inclined to bestow a favourable image upon Rome because they saw it as a reflection of themselves at the other end of the known world. China was a great empire, Rome was a great empire, naturally they would prefer to paint a picture of it that validated their own ideals - strength, power, order, civilisation etc. The reality of Rome was one of slaves, corruption and conquest, but then morality was different in those harsher times, and for all the blood spilt in its name Rome brought great peace, wealth and stability to the lands under its rule. The Chinese probably would've appreciated that.
They have 2000yr old bones of foreign individuals buried on the Emperors estate in Vagnari whose mitochondrial DNA shows a maternal east asian origin People claiming to be Roman emissaries are recorded to have arrived in china in 166AD through the 230s. 1st century AD coins and glassware have been found in china and in sites as far as Japan and Vietnam. Same with roman glassware. Romans had mapped all the way to Vietnam The histories are weird because a lot is lost and the word used to describe them in latin could also refer to multiple other asian peoples. Serica from "land of silk" with the people called Seres. Both empires had decent respect for one another
Both are the cradles of western civilisation ( Roman Empire ) and Sinic or Confuncian civilisation ( Han dynasty) I mean China, Japan , Korea and Vietnam
I remember reading about it on reddit like 5 years ago. Then thought of it for the first time since a month ago. Went to look it in more detail and it was stoked to see Voices of the past uploaded a video mere days prior.
16:12 In fact, GanYing(甘英) did manage to see the King of Kings in Persia as he was welcomed with an elite cavalry parade, even though he wasn't surprised since he has seen many more troops within China. However, the Persians don't want the Chinese to have direct diplomatic relations with the Romans, afraid that these 2 would forge a military alliance for the land of Persia. Thus told him that "DaQin" is beyond his reach...
@@caiawlodarski5339 Yeah I doubt they would have ever made a coordinated military attack on Persia. It was at the very edge of the reach of both empires. They just didn't want them trading directly since they'd lose so much money in taxes
Dean Cutler Only 1 year after GanYing’s visit, 2nd emperor of SPQR, Trajan attacked the Western border of Pathia & Kushan constantly Harass from the East
@Saguntum-Iberian-Greek Konstantinopoli Beside the Russians, Alexander and his Macedonian Greeks were the only European ever reach the deep core of Asia
The reason why the Gan Ying never reach the Roman Territory is because the Parthian officials feared that Rome and China would devour Parthia from 2 sides, so the Parthians duped Gan Ying for that reasons.
Grand Moff Tarkin logistically it is impossible, we are talking about mobilizing a professional armies of at least 50k, with cavalry, archer and infantry, cooks and thousands of ox bagged with weapons and foods along the journey. It is a disaster. Economically, Parthian will benefit from being the middlemen from this outcome. Thad the most sensible answer
The Parthians also were economically prosperous due to being the middle-men through which Chinese and Roman merchants exchanged goods. So they duped him for fear that China would find a direct trading route to Rome and skip them entirely when doing commerce on the Silk Road.
While it is true China has zero savage battle experience for decades, it is equally true that the US has zero experience managing a lasting civilization. China opened the Silk Road. Yet, not everyone would be savvy enough to benefit from it. The Brits imposed the Opium Road. Yet, not everyone had the power to resist it. All roads led to Rome. Yet, not everyone could become Rome, despite centuries passed. Western powers did seem however, to adopt Chinese inventions of the gunpowder and magnetic compasses to good global colonial effect. Even the influence of Christianity couldn’t have spread, without the revolutionary impact of Chinese printing tech. That’s why Gutenberg was voted the man of the last millennium.
@@ManHeyuan Dude Christianity was already widespread through a good portion of the world by the time press was available. There was a thing called memory, written books and churches.
Maybe they didn't know of any land routes to rome. also syria isn't the capital of rome they might have logical concluded he wanted to go to rome. Maybe they thought he was a merchant. If they knew he was a diplomat they might have said just take the land route and ask a roman official.
What's more impressive is that the Roman and Chinese empire saw each others as equal powers (the other was the mirror of themselves) despite never having a direct diplomatic relationship
Two of the greatest empires to ever exist in their respective areas. Rome: Total War sparked my interest in Roman history a decade and a half ago and this year I was inspired to learn more about the Han Empire and Chinese history by Total War: Three Kingdoms and Kings and Generals. (^_^)
@RAJU PEDDADA The Parthians in Persia & Mesopotamia were dark and barbaric? What? LOL. Also, aren't you forgetting India, with the Yuezhi-led Kushan Empire that existed during this time?
@RAJU PEDDADA so Rome and Han China never had any succession problems or civil wars? Was it good to live in Rome under Caligula and Nero and the numerous other terrible Emperors they had?
It’s mainly due to either the language barrier, stupid sailors or a combination of both cause I would have told them about the land border and ask to sail them up the river
The man was probably extremely homesick at this point and when the Parthians claimed that Rome was still 2 years away he took it as the best oppertunity to end his mission and return home.
Great video! However, in your next one you should consider talking about the archaeological evidence for Roman contacts in Vietnam, where the Book of Later Han says a Roman "Da Qin" embassy came in 166 AD, albeit most likely just a group of Roman merchants traveling past Burma and Thailand via the Indian Ocean trading network described by Ptolemy in his geography. For that matter, Ptolemy even mapped out the Gulf of Thailand and South China Sea around this time.
By archaeological evidence I mean items like gold medallion featuring Marcus Aurelius and Antoninus Pius found at the site of Oc Eo, Vietnam, then part of the Kingdom of Champa bordering the Han Empire's province in northern Vietnam, and potentially the site of "Cattigara" described by Ptolemy in his geographical book. The Han Chinese also had Roman glass and gilded Roman silverwares and dishes buried in their tombs, which probably passed on to them via merchants from Persia and India, but reinforces how they were connected to the material world of Rome. Roman coins have also been found in China, a good amount of them, but more so in India where the Romans probably purchased most of their Chinese silk along with Indian spices.
Totally agree. I wish there was a video on the later contacts too. I read a couple of articles that claimed an “embassy” brought with him ivory, rhino horns, tortoiseshells, etc. to the Han people in circa 166 AD (in Antonius Pius’ reign). Presumably there were frequent trades between the two empires later on. It’s still under debate what “Da Qin” means exactly in the Later Han history. It could mean the the eastern area of the Roman Empire, or even Dacia ( the first Dacian War began in 98AD, so technically Dacia was not part of the Roman Empire yet). And I noticed that if your pronounce ‘Dacia’, it sounds like “da qin” in Chinese. Maybe Gan Ying simply reached Dacia in ~ 97AD and thought he actually arrived at the Roman Empire. Historical accounts could rarely be corroborated by archaeological evidence unfortunately, as the latter is so scarce.
Yes, Romans met China at a high school dance. China was hanging out with friends near the water fountain when Romans walked by. Romans inquired about the time, the minutes turned into hours, pigs turned into bacon and they all danced the night away.
Man, you guys do a great job. Your videos provide context and include a lot of very obscure details, even the multiple accounts of an event. Don't ever change KnG.
The *far* more likely explanation for the "fish scale formation" is a force of Greco-Baktrian mercenary hoplites (or some successor troop type born of that tradition). After all, the Hellenic colonists Alexander settled in the East, and the military traditions they brought with them, were still very much alive and well at this point in history. The lands these colonists inhabited were also a Hell of a lot closer to the area of the battle than Roman lands ever were. I feel like the video should have at least addressed this possibility, rather than just blindly buying into the popular "Li-gien" myth. And if you were going to mention the myth, you could have at least told us what happened to the supposed "Romans" after the battle (i.e. they were taken alive and resettled by the Chinese).
I thought the same thing. I have seen a video about Alexander these days, where it was stated that many troops where raised in Asia and trained in the Greek way of fighting. But that was around 300 BC.
@@nealsterling8151 The Greco Bactrian kingdoms flourished for more than 200 years after Alexander passed away. IN 106BC during the war of the heavenly horses a Chinese army encountered cities which were still culturally very Greek. The Greco Bactrians transformed into the Greco Indians in todays Pakistan (where Greek was a spoken language till at least 100AD when the Kushan arrived and made it their administrative language for a short while). In the North Greek influence subsided but at least some Greek military traditions would have survived in 36BC
I feel the protector general deserve his own faction in a total war game. I mean, his role is very interesting, imaging fighting many unknown civilisations in desert while taking care what happens in emperor's court. Already feel like a good old school hard start position in a total war game.
In the medieval 2 total war mod rise of the three kingdoms, starting in 194 ad, there are plenty of these governors. Shi xie in northern Vietnam and Yunnan leading a nanyue/han semi indipendent province, the nanman kingdoms, the shanyue, all of yue stock and often commanded by a Chinese/local mixed elite class (like the Roman rump states in the far north in gaul and Britain or the Gallic and palmyrene generals), to the west in the steppe there are the gansu and xiliang factions and to the north a group of both steppe/Chinese factions and Korean/Chinese factions made of local han governors. I play often these factions both in Roman campaigns from 3rd century ad on to the 6th century (invasio barbarorum mod serie for both Rome and medieval) and in Chinese (zanghuo mod for Rome 1 about the warring states period, the yue kingdom is one of the most interesting factions, and rise of the three kingdoms for medieval). I play them to seceed later and create an indipendent kingdom.
Imagine a series about a legion from Rome who somehow ended up as mercenaries in China. That, would be so much fun. Season 1 could follow Caeser, while the latter season could follow another legion during the crisis of third century or maybe even Belisarius
Reminds me of Rank of bronze, instead of being sold as slave soldiers, the survivors at the Battle of Carrhae instead , they ended up being sold as slave soldiers to guard the Chinese Frontier.
Not really, Chinese people have been in contact with white people since at least the first millennium BCE, there was Chinese silk found in Ancient Egypt around 1000 BCE and in Scythian Burial Sites from the Euxine to western Mongolia and more significantly the Han Dynasty became suzerains of the Serican Oasis states who were inhabited by white people
This video even explained Hou Hanshu which is written in 3 kingdoms periods after west Han and east Han (XI HAN and DONG HAN). This video is amazing!! Everything is elaborated deeply.
@@Sanghelli honestly probably not. There is sufficient geographical distance and obstacles between the two to limit conflicts of interest. Romans could never occupy chinese lands and china could never occupy Roman lands. And both would be stretched to bureaucratic limits in terms of the size of their domains before they could ever contest a region.
There were no logistics at the time that allowed for such an Alliance to take place. If the Romans developed powerful ships like the later european nations tho, maybe a more substancial alliance could have formed, who knows
The fishscale formation soldiers at the battle of Zhizhi were unlikely to have been Roman soldiers, and were more likely to have been traditional Greek hoplites with their overlapping hoplon shields in a classical phalanx formation. Greco-Persian kingdoms and city states such as Bactria existed in/near the region, and those kingdoms would have continued to use traditional Greek hoplite phalanxes and Macedonian phalangite pike-phalanx formations used by Alexander's armies. And yes, Alexander did bring traditional hoplites into his conquests. Alexander's Hellenistic armies continued to use traditional hoplites with large hoplons in addition to Macedonian phalangite pikemen. The pikemen were only 1/3 of his army. In addition to regular hoplite units in the army, it's believe that the elite Hypaspists units of Alexander's armies were equipped and fought similarly to traditional Greek hoplites.
Well the chinese also had their own testudo or turtle formation if you think of it is not imposible that two, three, four or whatever number of civilizations from utterly different parts and customs of the World might be able to come up with the same idea i mean we only Know about infantry civilizations such as Romans and greeks, but china had the same idea despite being an Archery military civilization and also the chinese adopted cavalry tactics and doctrine to counter nomadic horsemanship. My point is you cannot tell whether they are romans, greeks or maybe none of them
@@omarivanmayorgaalvarado860 Not sure why you're talking about Chinese formations because the people in the records are not Chinese soldiers. The Chinese records specifically state that the Chinese soldiers attacked enemy soldiers who used the fishscale formation. Furthermore, it was called a turtle formation - the texts call it a fish scale formation. Furthermore, my point it is much more likely it was a Greek formation rather than a Roman formation because Greeks actually lived in the region but Romans did not. Alexander of Macedon sent his armies to set up cities and towns in the region of this battle. The Romans did not and were still far from this place.
@@Intranetusa my point is anyone can come up with the idea of a testudo, turtle, fish or whatever you wanna call that formation the chinese had their own despite not being an infantry civilization unlike the greeks and romans. Another example of the same ideas the romans and the asian steppe People had a proto decimal system in their armies despite having no idea of each other since the beggining. You cannot tell whether this People are romans or greeks by simply clinging into the idea bactria was there and therefore it is more Likely the infantrymen Who the video is talking about are the greeks style phalanx because anyone can think of that formation
@@omarivanmayorgaalvarado860 Yeh, shield wall formations were pretty common throughout the world. Yes, we cannot know for sure who these people were. However, there are some popular hypothesis suggesting a Western Eurasian origin. The earlier hypothesis was made by Homer Dobbs saying they could have been Romans...but this has been disproven or shown to be unlikely by recent evidence. The more recent hypothesis that is more credible is that they were actually Greek or Greco-Persians. We know that the Greco-Persian Kingdom of Fergana (which likely had hoplites and shielded pikemen) was located very close to the site of this battle in question. So if they happened to be non-Chinese, non-steppe people, then they could've been the natives who adopted Greco-Persian traditions or maybe Greco-Persian mixed ancestry people themselves.
It actually hurt a bit seeing that the envoy was so (relatively) close to Roman territory, and then get bamboozled by some sailors. So close, and yet, so far.
I love how the Han Chinese seem to have assumed the Romans would've been great and noble friends, when given what we know of the Romans, they would.. not have been so. Rome doesn't exactly have a history of playing nice with its neighbors and even with its actual allies. After all, the Gauls asked the Romans for help against their enemies... and the Romans sent Caesar.
I think historically China and the people have always been poetically optimistic, despite constant struggle and look forward to the future. This seems pretty much the same today - though many are still in poverty, issues with the government, pollution and climate change - they are currently (according to an IPOS Study funded by Bill & Melinda Gates foundation) the most optimistic towards the future.
@@iminyourwalls8309 Basically, the existence of the Persian Empires - Parthians, and later Sasanians - kept China and Rome from ever having any ability, let alone reason, to contend with each other in force, but also kept them from being true allies in any sense. I just think that, if Rome and China had shared a border - let's say the Parthian Empire collapsed and Rome and China both moved into its territory - then the Chinese would get an unpleasant surprise with just how antagonistic the Romans could be. It's not just militarism; like the Chinese they saw themselves as superior to other cultures, but unlike the Chinese they saw it as a duty to conquer and control those other cultures, whereas China saw most of its prosperity in isolation.
There is no way Rome or China would've waged war on each other. At that time, they were both simply too big and too far away to be attacked. Whatever forces the Romans could possibly get into China after presumably neutralising Parthia first would've achieved nothing, and likely been completely destroyed. The Romans would've gathered extensive intelligence before even contemplating such a daring move and realised the impossibility of waging war on China. The same is true for any Han Emperor considering a move against Rome - too big, too far away, whatever forces could be sent would be annihilated. Since neither empire could pose a threat to the other, the only sensible path for relations they could take would be friendly relations - envoys, trading, an alliance etc. They may have teamed up to destroy Parthia, then cooperated in pacifying the Central Asian warlords while trading directly via the Silk Road. Assuming Parthia was taken out it is _possible_ Rome and China could've fought border skirmishes over territory in Central Asia, but it seems unlikely. These areas were so far away from the central administration of either empire and had little of real value besides defense against a now destroyed Parthia.
The theory that those people were actual roman prisoners who somehow reclaimed their equipment they lost while being captured on the opposite part of the parthian empire and continued fighting in the roman fashion is just plain ridiculous and silly.
More likely is some roman prisoners taught infantry tactics to people in the parthian empire and they taught those tactics to mercenaries. The testudo is very useful when dealing with an enemy that fires a lot of arrows. It's not the craziest thing for empires to take prisoners and incorporate them into their military with their own equipment though.
For one they don't need to reclaim their equipment; they just need to make new ones themselves or tell a good smith to make the equipment in according to their specs. The result maybe an imitation but still an equipment nonetheless. That's how chariot warfare and stirrups spread allover the world.
@@TheBacknblack92 Except it's not at all clear that it was the testudo the mercenaries performed. If you read the actual account, the writer is not describing it like some magical unusual thing he's never seen before. It could be ANY kind of shield formation, which were very much a thing among the Chinese, or the local people. There is no evidence whatsoever that this had anything to do with the Romans. The far more likely explanation is that they were Kangju or Dayuan mercenaries.
@@weirdofromhalo Hoplites around 30. BC? Doubtful. Phalanxes of Hellenistic armies at this time were made of pikemen, not hoplites. There were soldiers bearing large shields that perhaps served a similar purpose, like the thureophoroi. A Hellenized local unit is a possibility, yes. But hoplites as in Greek soldiers carrying an aspis, not really.
Cause he doesn't know he was that near..... unfortunate but i forgive him given the circumstances and that he did his best and daring to go to that far.
Yup , but unfortunately , even if China and Rome made contacts , not much would be done as China after that period was gradually internally weak and would plunge into civil War around two centuries later , which lead to the Three Kingdoms period. What's a main difference between China and Rome is that in Rome , ruling families could be easily changed and for China , a family ruled over the Empire or Kingdom and if that family is overthrown , it's signifies the end of the Nation. So usually successful coups in China would lead to a change in the nation , much unlike Rome
It's not exactly a movie about Gan Ying, but it's the closest I know that can scratch your itch: Dragon Blade (2015) It's not a great film though... But at least it's something.
Dang, first Fire of Learning, then Voices of the Past, Invicta, and then you guys? Some historical fiction author should right a series on a what if scenario, where the Han and Romans finally come into contact.
6:18 Just 2 years ago, Archaeologist found a Bamboo book in KHOTAN, which is the earliest chinese elementary book( I read the same article when I in middle school). It's an amazing feeling when I realize there were a boy are forced by his parents to recite the whole book like me in 2000years ago .
They were only 40 days away! Yet were separated by 2 years of travel at the same time. Such a shame. This video covers the same topic done by others. However it focuses on something the others did not really talk about. How China got their information. So amazing and thanks for this additional piece of the puzzle.
I cannot watch videos while I'm at work but I had to quickly go on UA-cam to like this video after getting a notification for it! Already know this is going to be quality content! Keep it up K&G, you guys make amazing content!
The story with the ambassador not realizing that he could have reached Rome by land may be frustrating. But honestly, any hopes of the Han to gain Rome as an ally were unrealistic anyway. The Romans WERE to distant, never managed to overcome the Parthans militarily, the empire was already reaching overstretch and finally, the Roman idea of being an ally was to integrate you into their empire.
The theory put forth about the Romans helping the Xiongnu is problematic to say the least. A “fish scale” formation is not an accurate description of a Roman testudo, in fact, such a close knit formation of shields next to one another might have been common place in most ancient armies. A “fish scale” formation, where shields actually overlap, is more descriptive of Greek phalanx formations which, if there was a western influence, were far more likely. The Greco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek Kingdoms were around during the Battle of Zhi Zhi and likely had a vested interest in the trade network of Central Asia. Recent scholarship has thrown Dubs’ argument into question. The location of “Crassus Legion” in this region of Central Asia is unlikely because, quite simply, the Parthian Empire did not extend out that far and there was a long distance between the Parthian Domain and the place of the battle. Furthermore, there is an almost 20 year gap between the battle of Carrhae and Zhi Zhi, assuming the youngest soldiers joined at 16. We are talking about soldiers ranging from 35 to 60, not the ideal age for warriors at this time, especially if the life expectancy was 40 in Rome. Peoples from the Hellenistic expansion into this area of the world were closer to the action, were likely to have a local interest (whether it be polity related or just mercenary work), could provide soldiers of fighting age, and there is overwhelming evidence that Greek/Macedonian culture was passed down for several centuries after Alexander the Great and his successor Greek Kingdoms in this region of the world. Dr. Christopher Anthony Matthew has produced scholarship on this possibility. When is most interesting about this possibility is that it gives us a view into this little known history where the descendants of Alexander’s army could have found economic success by acting as mercenaries for this region of Asia and had a more symbiotic relationship with the political and economic affairs of the early Silk Road. This is something that King’s and Generals should look into and do a video on.
The Parthians not only risked to loose money as middlemen, they must have realized that if CHina and Rome ever formed a military alliance, they could have destroyed Parthia and perhaps quite easily. I can imagine that the Parthians kings sent spies and were regularly informed about the actions of the Chinese diplomatic mission trying to find Rome.
I wish someone would add a mod that creates a Roman expedition faction to the Three Kingdoms Total War so that I could finally live out my dream Rome-China bromance
Can we get a condottieri video? I always found them fascinating but there's really not much on UA-cam about them and I'd definitely trust you to do a good job faithfully depicting them and shed a light on them as almost no one knows who they were
When you're between 2 resource centres, you'd try to monopolise trade and the trade routes in between. Arab traders profited for centuries controlling the trade between East and west. Preventing Chinese communication from Rome was probably a good political play by the parthians.
I just took a very rough measurement of distance: from Xi'an (Chang'an) to the tip of Persian Gulf is roughly 5,500km. from Roma to the same spot is roughly 4,000km. Both are land routes. Indeed too great a distance between the two. It's about a 20-30 day drive by car. Hard to imagine how they manage to go so far 2,000 years ago.
By honest, the original context really meant frank, or candid, comparing to restrained /veiled confucian value. Just similar interpretations on one Chinese charater（直：literally straight）.
As far as i know there was a diplomatic mission of the roman Imperator Marcus Aurelius, which successfully came to the Han Empire and trades amongs other things horses. But was not followed by further contacts, cause of the soon to be end of the eastern Han Dynasty and the trouble the romans had to face during their late 10th and early 11th century AUC.
Contact between both is rather indirect most of the time though. I always visualize it being more romantic, dramatic and epic. Like an epic clash between two juggernaut empires where there is no easy victor. Like sassanids and eastern rome wars. You never know who’s going to win in the end or someone else wins instead. Reality is quite different though i admit.
Narrow ETT Yeah i understand that geographically they wouldn’t realistically go to war. I’m just hypothesizing if they were close to one another in terms of borders. And if war does break out, how will it play out
on that time mapping was a hard think to do and it was pretty expensive so its probably impossible to get a map from a far unknown land .. and i think for Han dynasty they probably didnt even know a land beyon partian lands existed ofc same goes for Rome as well
@@enesakhan4032 The mapping shouldn't be a problem. It would be huge no doubt but if Europa Universalis IV can pull it off so can CA. Although gameplay wise it would be a logistical nightmare and probably would use up a ton of data and be super laggey.
This is interesting. Although there are sources suggesting they did get someone to Rome to write about it. However, as for a full face to face meeting. Had Rome and China allied Parthia would have likely fallen very fast as attack on both sides would be a bit much. Rome getting a break from the eastern front. It might have lead to it then dominating even the Germanic tribes in fully. The question is given the spread of Christianity at that time. As Rome began to lean towards being Christian, would it not cause the two to break their alliance and cause a very early east vs west war? Even though both would be so far stretched with Parthia in the middle if they did try to occupy it. The only upside would be maybe Parthia goes to the negotiation table with Rome and China that they get a collective peace, but given Roman desire to take Parthia. I assume Rome would use an alliance to help them bring Parthia down.
Honestly even if those diplomats had reached Rome, it's hard to imagine anything massive coming out of it. That Chinese guy was right - Rome was too far away to substantially help China in Central Asia and China was too far away to assist Rome. With the time it took to cross the distance, I doubt they could have even co-ordinated actions against the Parthians in between them.
@@ericconnor8251 they didn't cover it, but check out BazBattles and HistoryMarche as well, two excellent YT history channels with graphics and similar presentation styles
The Chinese were more seperated, segregated, secluded, isolated, and exiled but at the same time in a lot of areas more advanced when it came to technological terminologies
Han Dynasty, the namesake of the modern day Chinese Han people, was based on the River Han in modern day Shaanxi, where the founder Liu Bang was proclaimed king by Xiang Yu after the fall of Qin
Not to mention Liu Bang's power base during the Chu-Han Contention was in Hanzhong which was close to the Han River of which he was proclaimed king by his retainers.
@@unifieddynasty How about Dictator Cincinnatus? By these cherrypicking standards - there are no honest people since every country's leaders used treachery and deceit at some point. Especially politicians and especially back then. I meant Roman society and its values. According to Via Romana, one of the grandest virtues was Veritas - honesty.
In case anyone is asking, I'm sure most Romans were upstanding people, as most people are. I'm just playing on the fact that Roman diplomacy often involved shady things, which would have also been done in kind by any other powerful nation in history. Also Rome keeps betraying my alliance with them and I'm slightly rustled. 🙂
*UA-cam:* So uhh...how many sino-roman relations videos are you guys going to make? *History youtube channels:* Yes. Edit: no this is good, its an interesting topic that till recently hasn't been given much attention, especially on YT
It's most likely to be private merchants serving as unofficial delegates of Rome. Since we don't have any Roman source that specified a mission to China.
Ganying:OK,now I 'm going to Rome Pathian:you guys,Rome is very far.you must coast 1 year to Rome Ganying:oh my god,too far i have to report to the emperor. Roma:? in fact Ganying was near to the Antioch But Pathian were lie to his.
Han:we wear silk. Rome:we wear linen. Han:we write on paper. Rome:we write on parchment. Han:we drink by china. Rome:we drink by pottery. Han:we marched north to mongolian grassland,east to korean coast,south to vietnam rainforest,west to conquered hellenistic Tayuen in central asia Fergana Valley. Rome:we..... Han yell:sh u t up,you fu c k ing barbarian.Have you ever heared the words from "the who offended the mighty Han empire,shall be eliminated regardless of distance"
Great video and extremely interesting world History! Amazing to thing how close the Han/Roman connection came. No one would sell the Han delegation a good map?!?
What an amazing video!!!! I’ve loved history all my life. Rome in particular! But never have I thought that these two different worlds could meet! And to see that they tired has blown my mind! Well done Kings and Generals! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Amazing video, thank you.
I knew that the Chinese were reasonably aware that the Romans existed. I wonder what if the Chinese had been allowed to make contact with the Roman's. What could have been achieved from such relations with them. Heaven only knows. Get what I mean. My thanks to those who made this video a reality.
There is a sea battle happened between the Fatimids and the Roman (the Byzantine) called (Battle of Al-Majaz) it was in a strait between Sicily and Calabria in south Italy… can you make a video about it ??!!
I feel it’s worth mentioning that the “fish scale” part is very difficult to verify as Romans; all we have is the professor’s theory and the fact that the formation looked like “fish scales”. IIRC we have no description of their equipment beyond that basic appearance.
It sounds more like a hoplite phalanx to me than a testudo to be honest, and it makes more sense. That area was brought under Alexander's conquest a long time ago. Could be possible these guys were some mercenary hoplites.
Hi K&G! I would like to ask whether or not you have any plans of covering the Boshin war or the Satsuma rebellion any time in the future. It's not covered on YT very well despite being a pivotal event in Japanese history.
Since the TV drama on han xin is all sponsoring, why not consider doing an episode on his battles, one of the top four commanders of Chinese military history. :)
Patrons/UA-cam members - live Q&A this Sunday, ask us anything.
I love You GUYS!!! PS:Can you please do a video about Napoleon's marshals and generals after you complete the Napoleonic war battles?
Kings and Generals
Do a video about Caucasian Khanates pls
Please do one on the sikh empire please and the afgan sikh and 1st bristish sikh wars
Kings and Generals I have a question, what is your favorite dinosaur?
@@TyrannosaurusRex5027 birds :-)
Ngl, I got a little frustrated and dissapointed that the chinese diplomat didn't find a way to Rome
at least he tried, sadly Rome didn't even try
@@jinjunliu2401 Not necessarily. The Greco-Roman geographer Ptolemy actually mapped out the South China Sea and Gulf of Thailand, albeit inaccurately, and his description of "Cattigara" was most likely Oc Eo, Vietnam, then part of the Champa Kingdom that bordered the Chinese Han Empire's province in northern Vietnam. The Chinese Book of Later Han talks about a Roman embassy coming this way by sea in 166 AD.
@@jinjunliu2401 Chinese sorces have mentioned couple roman embassies visiting chinese court in 2nd and 3rd century. But it's debatable wether they were official missions or private entrprises.
All roads lead to Rome...
Except for the Chinese
I'm just glad they didn't actually decide to go south into the Arabian Peninsula by land. If the heat didn't kill them then the nomads there would have.
And I don't know anything about Parthian infrastructure, but couldn't have somebody pointed them north on some road to Ctesiphon and then Rome?
"it's impossible to reach the great western empire"
"did you make sure?"
"yeah we asked like 3 sailors"
But the western empire reach them
Rome always make his way
@a z Parthia always had uneasy relations with Rome. Rome repeatedly tried to invade them, and vice versa
@a z Parthia likely wouldn't have wanted Han to know of Rome's existence on their western frontier. Han would've likely seen Rome as an ally against Parthia for Han's own Central Asian ambitions.
Katapharos the Han like to know people from different culture background, different kingdoms. It’s all about trading opportunities
Probably against Parthia's best interests for there to be a Han China and Roman Empire alliance
"We were on the verge of greatness we were this close"
Lol. Seems like Star Wars memes are relevant in any conversation!
They would have been total bros
This happened too many times. It is sad. We almost united the world, but here we are.
@@gulmaraz5931 Nah they would have gone to war eventually.
Ben A. True, it’s the same theory from Luo guanzhong, the author of “ Three Kingdoms”: “The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide.”
Rome and China talking about each other is like me and my friend grading each other's test
ZuboyTV 😂, comment of the day!
While it is true China has zero savage battle experience for decades, it is equally true that the US has zero experience managing a lasting civilization.
China opened the Silk Road. Yet, not everyone would be savvy enough to benefit from it.
The Brits imposed the Opium Road. Yet, not everyone had the power to resist it.
All roads led to Rome.
Yet, not everyone could become Rome, despite centuries passed.
Western powers did seem however, to adopt Chinese inventions of the gunpowder and magnetic compasses to good global colonial effect.
Even the influence of Christianity couldn’t have spread, without the revolutionary impact of Chinese printing tech. That’s why Gutenberg was voted the man of the last millennium.
@@ManHeyuan Taiwan numba 1! China numba 4!
@@Madhattersinjeans nope China is Number 1 and you must speak english funny.
@@gm-fw9de how much did your social credit go up by for that statement
Almost all Chinese historic record about Romans(Da Qin 大秦), are positive, if not too exaggeratedly praising. You can assume it's like Marco Polo praising the Yuan dynasty, saying Chinese roads were paved with jades and ivory, palaces were built by gold. Chinese records praised the political system of Roman(and later Byzantine) empire and its administrative bureaucrats, saying it enable an empire larger than their own to function and prosper in an unimaginable efficiency. Given the facts that there were seldom Chinese who has really been there, most of the description might come from merchants or bluffing envoys.
And on the other side we have "Um, these Chinese have gem stones and silks, and our women... um, ruin our purses with all those Chinese products. Damn you, womz."
Cancel yes, avatar drawn by Pixiv member 4162402.
This still happens. Chinese views of America/Europe even today are excessively positive, and as a result most Chinese who travel to western countries feel the "Paris Syndrome" when reality fails to hold up to expectations.
@@caiawlodarski5339 Probably because the Roman Empire, while big, the center of it was mostly water because of the Mediterranean Sea, while China's empire was all land.
I imagine they were inclined to bestow a favourable image upon Rome because they saw it as a reflection of themselves at the other end of the known world. China was a great empire, Rome was a great empire, naturally they would prefer to paint a picture of it that validated their own ideals - strength, power, order, civilisation etc. The reality of Rome was one of slaves, corruption and conquest, but then morality was different in those harsher times, and for all the blood spilt in its name Rome brought great peace, wealth and stability to the lands under its rule. The Chinese probably would've appreciated that.
It seems that the community
between roman and china is a
hot topic among historic youtube Channels these days.
They have 2000yr old bones of foreign individuals buried on the Emperors estate in Vagnari whose mitochondrial DNA shows a maternal east asian origin
People claiming to be Roman emissaries are recorded to have arrived in china in 166AD through the 230s. 1st century AD coins and glassware have been found in china and in sites as far as Japan and Vietnam. Same with roman glassware. Romans had mapped all the way to Vietnam
The histories are weird because a lot is lost and the word used to describe them in latin could also refer to multiple other asian peoples. Serica from "land of silk" with the people called Seres.
Both empires had decent respect for one another
Both are the cradles of western civilisation ( Roman Empire ) and Sinic or Confuncian civilisation ( Han dynasty) I mean China, Japan , Korea and Vietnam
I remember reading about it on reddit like 5 years ago.
Then thought of it for the first time since a month ago. Went to look it in more detail and it was stoked to see Voices of the past uploaded a video mere days prior.
Cause whites and Asians like to kiss each others asses. And they also have other stuff in common.
@@makky6239 No
16:12 In fact, GanYing(甘英) did manage to see the King of Kings in Persia as he was welcomed with an elite cavalry parade, even though he wasn't surprised since he has seen many more troops within China. However, the Persians don't want the Chinese to have direct diplomatic relations with the Romans, afraid that these 2 would forge a military alliance for the land of Persia. Thus told him that "DaQin" is beyond his reach...
Hyltonial I I can see why the Parthians were afraid of a Han-Roman alliance. They would have been utterly crushed between them.
@@caiawlodarski5339 Yeah I doubt they would have ever made a coordinated military attack on Persia. It was at the very edge of the reach of both empires. They just didn't want them trading directly since they'd lose so much money in taxes
Dean Cutler Only 1 year after GanYing’s visit, 2nd emperor of SPQR, Trajan attacked the Western border of Pathia & Kushan constantly Harass from the East
@Saguntum-Iberian-Greek Konstantinopoli Beside the Russians, Alexander and his Macedonian Greeks were the only European ever reach the deep core of Asia
Sadly Persian along with their Zoroastrian religion were eradicated by the Islamic invasion in 632 AD.
"All roads lead to Dai Chi"
More like Daqin or 大秦
???
Well, except the one took by Gan Ying XD
@@krankarvolund7771 well, he made the mistake of taking the sea route.
条条大路通罗马！
The reason why the Gan Ying never reach the Roman Territory is because the Parthian officials feared that Rome and China would devour Parthia from 2 sides, so the Parthians duped Gan Ying for that reasons.
But it's kinda impossible tho, logistically both roman and china cannot supply such a campaign so far away
@@willsplayify they can, the silk road would make that happen, and China could conquer most of the Asian kingdoms in that time
Grand Moff Tarkin logistically it is impossible, we are talking about mobilizing a professional armies of at least 50k, with cavalry, archer and infantry, cooks and thousands of ox bagged with weapons and foods along the journey. It is a disaster. Economically, Parthian will benefit from being the middlemen from this outcome. Thad the most sensible answer
The Parthians also were economically prosperous due to being the middle-men through which Chinese and Roman merchants exchanged goods. So they duped him for fear that China would find a direct trading route to Rome and skip them entirely when doing commerce on the Silk Road.
@@alvintheng8501 Alexander did an even further campaign with fewer resources than the Roman empire, so did Genghis Khan.
Shame the sailors had a financial incentive to not tell him of the land route
SCarr That is reason from the surface, much thoughtful consideration would involve economic benefits & diplomatic politics
While it is true China has zero savage battle experience for decades, it is equally true that the US has zero experience managing a lasting civilization.
China opened the Silk Road. Yet, not everyone would be savvy enough to benefit from it.
The Brits imposed the Opium Road. Yet, not everyone had the power to resist it.
All roads led to Rome.
Yet, not everyone could become Rome, despite centuries passed.
Western powers did seem however, to adopt Chinese inventions of the gunpowder and magnetic compasses to good global colonial effect.
Even the influence of Christianity couldn’t have spread, without the revolutionary impact of Chinese printing tech. That’s why Gutenberg was voted the man of the last millennium.
@@ManHeyuan +5 social credit score has been added to your profile
@@ManHeyuan Dude Christianity was already widespread through a good portion of the world by the time press was available. There was a thing called memory, written books and churches.
Maybe they didn't know of any land routes to rome. also syria isn't the capital of rome they might have logical concluded he wanted to go to rome. Maybe they thought he was a merchant. If they knew he was a diplomat they might have said just take the land route and ask a roman official.
What's more impressive is that the Roman and Chinese empire saw each others as equal powers (the other was the mirror of themselves) despite never having a direct diplomatic relationship
40 Days. Less than one and half month and history could have been changed forever.
cant see how that could have changed history. Still they were too far away for doing anything more complex than indirect trade
lokibau maybe they would have gotten pasta faster
It may have advanced history a few centuries faster
If they made contact. That would've make Parthia very very rich.
@@monkeydog8681 or destroy it
Many may have covered this topic, but it’s still refreshing to see you cover it also
Have they covered the topic in such an interesting graphic design? If yes please share links
I see you everwhere .It seems you like history as well...weeb comrade.
dam i see you everywhere it’s cool
China 19AD: Find me a trade route to Rome.
China 2019AD: So, did you guys finish building the belt & road thing to get a trade route to Europe?
One Belt one road is a disaster
@@hwasiaqhan8923 it definitely is. It's like how the Soviets outspent their economy in the 80s
@@hwasiaqhan8923 It is a disaster if you consider yourself an American.
@@hwasiaqhan8923 or American's pet dog, that works too.
@@hwasiaqhan8923 oh, salty
Two of the greatest empires to ever exist in their respective areas. Rome: Total War sparked my interest in Roman history a decade and a half ago and this year I was inspired to learn more about the Han Empire and Chinese history by Total War: Three Kingdoms and Kings and Generals. (^_^)
@RAJU PEDDADA such an ignorant statement
@RAJU PEDDADA The Parthians in Persia & Mesopotamia were dark and barbaric? What? LOL. Also, aren't you forgetting India, with the Yuezhi-led Kushan Empire that existed during this time?
And was my degree in History that got me playing Total War. That and Officially Devin's Roman British campaign.
@@ericconnor8251 exactly Eric some people are just plain stupid
@RAJU PEDDADA so Rome and Han China never had any succession problems or civil wars? Was it good to live in Rome under Caligula and Nero and the numerous other terrible Emperors they had?
Zhizhi: GG
Zhizhi left the server
hahah😂😂
its actually not pronounced as GG, kings and generals, as always just butchered the pronunciation. zhizhi is pronounced more like chercher
I thought he said dick "jiji" and had to do a double take xD
@@xXxSkyViperxXx Good game. LMAO
@@martinzhang2226 cant stop snickering everytime he says that lol. feel like a little kid again
Really interesting topic!
how is your comment 10 hours ago?
Sammy Müller-smith early access
@@MalayArcher i didnt even know that was a thing
@@sammyms385 only for Patreon and UA-cam members....unfortunately as I have no money, I cant become a Patron
Brilliant! - This subject deserves far more popular attention. I look forward to the next instalment…
Dr Raoul McLaughlin hello I just want to say that I like your videos
Tbh I was sad and frustrated when the diplomat failed to reach Rome
It’s mainly due to either the language barrier, stupid sailors or a combination of both cause I would have told them about the land border and ask to sail them up the river
The Parthians most likely misled them on purpose to continue profiting off being the middleman
The man was probably extremely homesick at this point and when the Parthians claimed that Rome was still 2 years away he took it as the best oppertunity to end his mission and return home.
@@longyu9336 Zhang Qian: Pathetic
Great video! However, in your next one you should consider talking about the archaeological evidence for Roman contacts in Vietnam, where the Book of Later Han says a Roman "Da Qin" embassy came in 166 AD, albeit most likely just a group of Roman merchants traveling past Burma and Thailand via the Indian Ocean trading network described by Ptolemy in his geography. For that matter, Ptolemy even mapped out the Gulf of Thailand and South China Sea around this time.
By archaeological evidence I mean items like gold medallion featuring Marcus Aurelius and Antoninus Pius found at the site of Oc Eo, Vietnam, then part of the Kingdom of Champa bordering the Han Empire's province in northern Vietnam, and potentially the site of "Cattigara" described by Ptolemy in his geographical book. The Han Chinese also had Roman glass and gilded Roman silverwares and dishes buried in their tombs, which probably passed on to them via merchants from Persia and India, but reinforces how they were connected to the material world of Rome. Roman coins have also been found in China, a good amount of them, but more so in India where the Romans probably purchased most of their Chinese silk along with Indian spices.
Totally agree. I wish there was a video on the later contacts too. I read a couple of articles that claimed an “embassy” brought with him ivory, rhino horns, tortoiseshells, etc. to the Han people in circa 166 AD (in Antonius Pius’ reign). Presumably there were frequent trades between the two empires later on. It’s still under debate what “Da Qin” means exactly in the Later Han history. It could mean the the eastern area of the Roman Empire, or even Dacia ( the first Dacian War began in 98AD, so technically Dacia was not part of the Roman Empire yet). And I noticed that if your pronounce ‘Dacia’, it sounds like “da qin” in Chinese. Maybe Gan Ying simply reached Dacia in ~ 97AD and thought he actually arrived at the Roman Empire. Historical accounts could rarely be corroborated by archaeological evidence unfortunately, as the latter is so scarce.
Yes, Romans met China at a high school dance. China was hanging out with friends near the water fountain when Romans walked by. Romans inquired about the time, the minutes turned into hours, pigs turned into bacon and they all danced the night away.
Man, you guys do a great job. Your videos provide context and include a lot of very obscure details, even the multiple accounts of an event. Don't ever change KnG.
I was actually waiting for when you get to post your own piece on this particular topic! You guys never disappoint! 👌💎
The *far* more likely explanation for the "fish scale formation" is a force of Greco-Baktrian mercenary hoplites (or some successor troop type born of that tradition). After all, the Hellenic colonists Alexander settled in the East, and the military traditions they brought with them, were still very much alive and well at this point in history. The lands these colonists inhabited were also a Hell of a lot closer to the area of the battle than Roman lands ever were.
I feel like the video should have at least addressed this possibility, rather than just blindly buying into the popular "Li-gien" myth. And if you were going to mention the myth, you could have at least told us what happened to the supposed "Romans" after the battle (i.e. they were taken alive and resettled by the Chinese).
I thought the same thing. I have seen a video about Alexander these days, where it was stated that many troops where raised in Asia and trained in the Greek way of fighting. But that was around 300 BC.
They said it could have been Roman Mercs, they did not say that they were. It was possible, not certain, take a chill pill man.
@@nealsterling8151 The Greco Bactrian kingdoms flourished for more than 200 years after Alexander passed away. IN 106BC during the war of the heavenly horses a Chinese army encountered cities which were still culturally very Greek. The Greco Bactrians transformed into the Greco Indians in todays Pakistan (where Greek was a spoken language till at least 100AD when the Kushan arrived and made it their administrative language for a short while). In the North Greek influence subsided but at least some Greek military traditions would have survived in 36BC
I feel the protector general deserve his own faction in a total war game. I mean, his role is very interesting, imaging fighting many unknown civilisations in desert while taking care what happens in emperor's court. Already feel like a good old school hard start position in a total war game.
In the medieval 2 total war mod rise of the three kingdoms, starting in 194 ad, there are plenty of these governors. Shi xie in northern Vietnam and Yunnan leading a nanyue/han semi indipendent province, the nanman kingdoms, the shanyue, all of yue stock and often commanded by a Chinese/local mixed elite class (like the Roman rump states in the far north in gaul and Britain or the Gallic and palmyrene generals), to the west in the steppe there are the gansu and xiliang factions and to the north a group of both steppe/Chinese factions and Korean/Chinese factions made of local han governors. I play often these factions both in Roman campaigns from 3rd century ad on to the 6th century (invasio barbarorum mod serie for both Rome and medieval) and in Chinese (zanghuo mod for Rome 1 about the warring states period, the yue kingdom is one of the most interesting factions, and rise of the three kingdoms for medieval). I play them to seceed later and create an indipendent kingdom.
I died when I saw the Filthy Frank reference at 2:45. Thank you K&G, I needed that today.
Imagine a series about a legion from Rome who somehow ended up as mercenaries in China. That, would be so much fun.
Season 1 could follow Caeser, while the latter season could follow another legion during the crisis of third century or maybe even Belisarius
Reminds me of Rank of bronze, instead of being sold as slave soldiers, the survivors at the Battle of Carrhae instead , they ended up being sold as slave soldiers to guard the Chinese Frontier.
Very interesting. So many mini-docus on this and yet I've never heard these details before! Well done!
Every historian wet dream: Chinese army vs. the Roman Legion
Seres delenta est
The two civilizations are too far away, whoever attack would loose the war.
*Real historians don't "dream" : only political scientists come up with bs fantasies.*
@Drago Arbiter Now that's an interesting scenario
@@Suite_annamite As a political science student, this hurt a little.
Watching this ancient history documentary was like traveling back in time-so much to take in!
Amazing video! Great West-East storylines make for even better videos. Good job K&G!
Han discovering Rome is just like we discovering aliens
Not really, Chinese people have been in contact with white people since at least the first millennium BCE, there was Chinese silk found in Ancient Egypt around 1000 BCE and in Scythian Burial Sites from the Euxine to western Mongolia and more significantly the Han Dynasty became suzerains of the Serican Oasis states who were inhabited by white people
@@iSyriux yeah
This video even explained Hou Hanshu which is written in 3 kingdoms periods after west Han and east Han (XI HAN and DONG HAN). This video is amazing!! Everything is elaborated deeply.
Imagine the possibilities of a Sino-Roman alliance. They would have been unstoppable. The first ever world super power.
They would end up clashing.
@@Sanghelli honestly probably not. There is sufficient geographical distance and obstacles between the two to limit conflicts of interest. Romans could never occupy chinese lands and china could never occupy Roman lands. And both would be stretched to bureaucratic limits in terms of the size of their domains before they could ever contest a region.
@@jonsong4592 though modern day Roman and Chinese empires would clash.
Jon Song you're right, but they could be allies (It's much easier than being enemies, and preassure parthia into bancrupcy.
There were no logistics at the time that allowed for such an Alliance to take place. If the Romans developed powerful ships like the later european nations tho, maybe a more substancial alliance could have formed, who knows
as chinese myself i love how u know history so well
Good stuff lads. Truly fascinating. And i must say that Han Xin series looks purdy clean.
The fishscale formation soldiers at the battle of Zhizhi were unlikely to have been Roman soldiers, and were more likely to have been traditional Greek hoplites with their overlapping hoplon shields in a classical phalanx formation. Greco-Persian kingdoms and city states such as Bactria existed in/near the region, and those kingdoms would have continued to use traditional Greek hoplite phalanxes and Macedonian phalangite pike-phalanx formations used by Alexander's armies.
And yes, Alexander did bring traditional hoplites into his conquests. Alexander's Hellenistic armies continued to use traditional hoplites with large hoplons in addition to Macedonian phalangite pikemen. The pikemen were only 1/3 of his army. In addition to regular hoplite units in the army, it's believe that the elite Hypaspists units of Alexander's armies were equipped and fought similarly to traditional Greek hoplites.
Well the chinese also had their own testudo or turtle formation if you think of it is not imposible that two, three, four or whatever number of civilizations from utterly different parts and customs of the World might be able to come up with the same idea i mean we only Know about infantry civilizations such as Romans and greeks, but china had the same idea despite being an Archery military civilization and also the chinese adopted cavalry tactics and doctrine to counter nomadic horsemanship. My point is you cannot tell whether they are romans, greeks or maybe none of them
@@omarivanmayorgaalvarado860 Not sure why you're talking about Chinese formations because the people in the records are not Chinese soldiers. The Chinese records specifically state that the Chinese soldiers attacked enemy soldiers who used the fishscale formation. Furthermore, it was called a turtle formation - the texts call it a fish scale formation. Furthermore, my point it is much more likely it was a Greek formation rather than a Roman formation because Greeks actually lived in the region but Romans did not. Alexander of Macedon sent his armies to set up cities and towns in the region of this battle. The Romans did not and were still far from this place.
@@Intranetusa my point is anyone can come up with the idea of a testudo, turtle, fish or whatever you wanna call that formation the chinese had their own despite not being an infantry civilization unlike the greeks and romans. Another example of the same ideas the romans and the asian steppe People had a proto decimal system in their armies despite having no idea of each other since the beggining. You cannot tell whether this People are romans or greeks by simply clinging into the idea bactria was there and therefore it is more Likely the infantrymen Who the video is talking about are the greeks style phalanx because anyone can think of that formation
@@omarivanmayorgaalvarado860 Yeh, shield wall formations were pretty common throughout the world. Yes, we cannot know for sure who these people were. However, there are some popular hypothesis suggesting a Western Eurasian origin. The earlier hypothesis was made by Homer Dobbs saying they could have been Romans...but this has been disproven or shown to be unlikely by recent evidence. The more recent hypothesis that is more credible is that they were actually Greek or Greco-Persians. We know that the Greco-Persian Kingdom of Fergana (which likely had hoplites and shielded pikemen) was located very close to the site of this battle in question. So if they happened to be non-Chinese, non-steppe people, then they could've been the natives who adopted Greco-Persian traditions or maybe Greco-Persian mixed ancestry people themselves.
I'm happy that I'm not the only one frustrated about that envoy not reaching Rome.
well, i guess the golden rule of being a middleman, is to never let your clients meet each other directly.
It actually hurt a bit seeing that the envoy was so (relatively) close to Roman territory, and then get bamboozled by some sailors. So close, and yet, so far.
This kind of stories really make my imagination run wild,just imagine the thrill of discovering godly empires,never before seen people,etc
I love how the Han Chinese seem to have assumed the Romans would've been great and noble friends, when given what we know of the Romans, they would.. not have been so. Rome doesn't exactly have a history of playing nice with its neighbors and even with its actual allies. After all, the Gauls asked the Romans for help against their enemies... and the Romans sent Caesar.
Well, every great empire has its own underhand politics.
I think historically China and the people have always been poetically optimistic, despite constant struggle and look forward to the future. This seems pretty much the same today - though many are still in poverty, issues with the government, pollution and climate change - they are currently (according to an IPOS Study funded by Bill & Melinda Gates foundation) the most optimistic towards the future.
@@iminyourwalls8309 Basically, the existence of the Persian Empires - Parthians, and later Sasanians - kept China and Rome from ever having any ability, let alone reason, to contend with each other in force, but also kept them from being true allies in any sense.
I just think that, if Rome and China had shared a border - let's say the Parthian Empire collapsed and Rome and China both moved into its territory - then the Chinese would get an unpleasant surprise with just how antagonistic the Romans could be.
It's not just militarism; like the Chinese they saw themselves as superior to other cultures, but unlike the Chinese they saw it as a duty to conquer and control those other cultures, whereas China saw most of its prosperity in isolation.
HellbirdIV well ,romans were following their own and only interest , divide and conquer
There is no way Rome or China would've waged war on each other. At that time, they were both simply too big and too far away to be attacked. Whatever forces the Romans could possibly get into China after presumably neutralising Parthia first would've achieved nothing, and likely been completely destroyed. The Romans would've gathered extensive intelligence before even contemplating such a daring move and realised the impossibility of waging war on China. The same is true for any Han Emperor considering a move against Rome - too big, too far away, whatever forces could be sent would be annihilated.
Since neither empire could pose a threat to the other, the only sensible path for relations they could take would be friendly relations - envoys, trading, an alliance etc. They may have teamed up to destroy Parthia, then cooperated in pacifying the Central Asian warlords while trading directly via the Silk Road. Assuming Parthia was taken out it is _possible_ Rome and China could've fought border skirmishes over territory in Central Asia, but it seems unlikely. These areas were so far away from the central administration of either empire and had little of real value besides defense against a now destroyed Parthia.
9:00
"GG!"
said Zhizhi Chanyu.
It is just a modern Chinese pronunciation of the Xiongnu chieftain's name 郅支.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhizhi
hongda lai He means: Got to go
Zeflute Gothystie LMAO
hongda lai it’s a sarcastically reply as zhizhi sounds like GG: good game, end of the game
it's not even pronounced like GG, this channels just loves to butcher chinese names, zhizhi is pronounced more like chercher
The theory that those people were actual roman prisoners who somehow reclaimed their equipment they lost while being captured on the opposite part of the parthian empire and continued fighting in the roman fashion is just plain ridiculous and silly.
More likely is some roman prisoners taught infantry tactics to people in the parthian empire and they taught those tactics to mercenaries. The testudo is very useful when dealing with an enemy that fires a lot of arrows. It's not the craziest thing for empires to take prisoners and incorporate them into their military with their own equipment though.
For one they don't need to reclaim their equipment; they just need to make new ones themselves or tell a good smith to make the equipment in according to their specs. The result maybe an imitation but still an equipment nonetheless. That's how chariot warfare and stirrups spread allover the world.
@@TheBacknblack92 Except it's not at all clear that it was the testudo the mercenaries performed.
If you read the actual account, the writer is not describing it like some magical unusual thing he's never seen before.
It could be ANY kind of shield formation, which were very much a thing among the Chinese, or the local people.
There is no evidence whatsoever that this had anything to do with the Romans.
The far more likely explanation is that they were Kangju or Dayuan mercenaries.
@@JanPospisilArt Far more likely is a hoplite formation.
@@weirdofromhalo Hoplites around 30. BC? Doubtful. Phalanxes of Hellenistic armies at this time were made of pikemen, not hoplites. There were soldiers bearing large shields that perhaps served a similar purpose, like the thureophoroi. A Hellenized local unit is a possibility, yes.
But hoplites as in Greek soldiers carrying an aspis, not really.
It's sad that he came so far and then turned around and went home. He was only a month from the borders of the Roman Empire!
Cause he doesn't know he was that near..... unfortunate but i forgive him given the circumstances and that he did his best and daring to go to that far.
This would make for a fascinating alternative history!
Yup , but unfortunately , even if China and Rome made contacts , not much would be done as China after that period was gradually internally weak and would plunge into civil War around two centuries later , which lead to the Three Kingdoms period. What's a main difference between China and Rome is that in Rome , ruling families could be easily changed and for China , a family ruled over the Empire or Kingdom and if that family is overthrown , it's signifies the end of the Nation. So usually successful coups in China would lead to a change in the nation , much unlike Rome
A movie about Gan Ying would be amazing actually.
True
It's not exactly a movie about Gan Ying, but it's the closest I know that can scratch your itch: Dragon Blade (2015) It's not a great film though... But at least it's something.
I find theses subjects fascinating, keep them coming K&G !
Dang, first Fire of Learning, then Voices of the Past, Invicta, and then you guys? Some historical fiction author should right a series on a what if scenario, where the Han and Romans finally come into contact.
6:18 Just 2 years ago, Archaeologist found a Bamboo book in KHOTAN, which is the earliest chinese elementary book( I read the same article when I in middle school). It's an amazing feeling when I realize there were a boy are forced by his parents to recite the whole book like me in 2000years ago .
They were only 40 days away! Yet were separated by 2 years of travel at the same time. Such a shame.
This video covers the same topic done by others. However it focuses on something the others did not really talk about. How China got their information. So amazing and thanks for this additional piece of the puzzle.
I cannot watch videos while I'm at work but I had to quickly go on UA-cam to like this video after getting a notification for it!
Already know this is going to be quality content! Keep it up K&G, you guys make amazing content!
The story with the ambassador not realizing that he could have reached Rome by land may be frustrating.
But honestly, any hopes of the Han to gain Rome as an ally were unrealistic anyway. The Romans WERE to distant, never managed to overcome the Parthans militarily, the empire was already reaching overstretch and finally, the Roman idea of being an ally was to integrate you into their empire.
Great video
Realy you become better and better
I wish you will make the already finished videos again
The theory put forth about the Romans helping the Xiongnu is problematic to say the least. A “fish scale” formation is not an accurate description of a Roman testudo, in fact, such a close knit formation of shields next to one another might have been common place in most ancient armies. A “fish scale” formation, where shields actually overlap, is more descriptive of Greek phalanx formations which, if there was a western influence, were far more likely. The Greco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek Kingdoms were around during the Battle of Zhi Zhi and likely had a vested interest in the trade network of Central Asia. Recent scholarship has thrown Dubs’ argument into question. The location of “Crassus Legion” in this region of Central Asia is unlikely because, quite simply, the Parthian Empire did not extend out that far and there was a long distance between the Parthian Domain and the place of the battle. Furthermore, there is an almost 20 year gap between the battle of Carrhae and Zhi Zhi, assuming the youngest soldiers joined at 16. We are talking about soldiers ranging from 35 to 60, not the ideal age for warriors at this time, especially if the life expectancy was 40 in Rome. Peoples from the Hellenistic expansion into this area of the world were closer to the action, were likely to have a local interest (whether it be polity related or just mercenary work), could provide soldiers of fighting age, and there is overwhelming evidence that Greek/Macedonian culture was passed down for several centuries after Alexander the Great and his successor Greek Kingdoms in this region of the world. Dr. Christopher Anthony Matthew has produced scholarship on this possibility. When is most interesting about this possibility is that it gives us a view into this little known history where the descendants of Alexander’s army could have found economic success by acting as mercenaries for this region of Asia and had a more symbiotic relationship with the political and economic affairs of the early Silk Road. This is something that King’s and Generals should look into and do a video on.
The Parthians not only risked to loose money as middlemen, they must have realized that if CHina and Rome ever formed a military alliance, they could have destroyed Parthia and perhaps quite easily. I can imagine that the Parthians kings sent spies and were regularly informed about the actions of the Chinese diplomatic mission trying to find Rome.
I wish someone would add a mod that creates a Roman expedition faction to the Three Kingdoms Total War so that I could finally live out my dream Rome-China bromance
Can we get a condottieri video? I always found them fascinating but there's really not much on UA-cam about them and I'd definitely trust you to do a good job faithfully depicting them and shed a light on them as almost no one knows who they were
When you're between 2 resource centres, you'd try to monopolise trade and the trade routes in between. Arab traders profited for centuries controlling the trade between East and west. Preventing Chinese communication from Rome was probably a good political play by the parthians.
The quality of the video is superb, I always enjoy a video from your channel.
Top 10 Anime Crossovers that Need to Happen
I just took a very rough measurement of distance:
from Xi'an (Chang'an) to the tip of Persian Gulf is roughly 5,500km.
from Roma to the same spot is roughly 4,000km.
Both are land routes. Indeed too great a distance between the two. It's about a 20-30 day drive by car. Hard to imagine how they manage to go so far 2,000 years ago.
They didn't start from Xi'an. They started from Tarim Basin
@@jrbb1837 but if the news of their meeting were to travel to the chinese emperor, then the messenger would have to travel that distance too
@@lyhthegreat probably took years to be there, imagining how our history will be 500 years later how titan and earth met.
15:00 We don't know how close we are to our Goals, so moral of the story is NEVER GIVE UP!
We can all, metaphorically, find our Dai Chi.
Clyde D'souza is your purse contain none ending of gold coin, definitely you can make the journey
I liked very much your video. Another vídeos about Rome and China contact will be most welcome. Thanks a lot.
By honest, the original context really meant frank, or candid, comparing to restrained
/veiled confucian value. Just similar interpretations on one Chinese charater（直：literally straight）.
You never fail to amaze us❤ appreciate your efforts!
As far as i know there was a diplomatic mission of the roman Imperator Marcus Aurelius, which successfully came to the Han Empire and trades amongs other things horses. But was not followed by further contacts, cause of the soon to be end of the eastern Han Dynasty and the trouble the romans had to face during their late 10th and early 11th century AUC.
Keep up with good work, great video
Feels like a 'did rome meet china' video has been recommended to me for 9000 times this past year
Imagine what would have happened if the Han Empire had made contact with the Romans.
All East Asian girls will marry Roman pedo warriors
Nothing interesting would've happened.
@MEXICO CITY BEAST yep no Arab conquests either, I suspect Rome would have lasted indefinitely in the west...
If they 2 met, Rome will never fall. Send a help letter to the Han court, thousands of ox bagged with silk, grain, cattle, weapon will be on the way.
Rome will not fall and Islam and Christianity will not exist
Contact between both is rather indirect most of the time though. I always visualize it being more romantic, dramatic and epic. Like an epic clash between two juggernaut empires where there is no easy victor. Like sassanids and eastern rome wars. You never know who’s going to win in the end or someone else wins instead.
Reality is quite different though i admit.
Narrow ETT Yeah i understand that geographically they wouldn’t realistically go to war. I’m just hypothesizing if they were close to one another in terms of borders. And if war does break out, how will it play out
We need a movie about those Roman survivors of Carrhae that ended up escaping and fighting the Chinese as mercenaries on the edge of the known world
You know, I always wondered about the Chinese point of view of India; how do you think they viewed each other?
If only the map of Rome II reached all the way to China. It would've been so awesome!!!
Interesting video
on that time mapping was a hard think to do and it was pretty expensive so its probably impossible to get a map from a far unknown land .. and i think for Han dynasty they probably didnt even know a land beyon partian lands existed ofc same goes for Rome as well
@@enesakhan4032 The mapping shouldn't be a problem. It would be huge no doubt but if Europa Universalis IV can pull it off so can CA. Although gameplay wise it would be a logistical nightmare and probably would use up a ton of data and be super laggey.
Pierre S. That would awesome but you’d also have to wait 10 minutes for each end turn to finish lol
@@hwasiaqhan8923 Mmmm. Good point
The tetsudo formation might have been the descendants of the greeks phalanx that were there 2-3 centuries ago
This is interesting. Although there are sources suggesting they did get someone to Rome to write about it. However, as for a full face to face meeting. Had Rome and China allied Parthia would have likely fallen very fast as attack on both sides would be a bit much. Rome getting a break from the eastern front. It might have lead to it then dominating even the Germanic tribes in fully. The question is given the spread of Christianity at that time. As Rome began to lean towards being Christian, would it not cause the two to break their alliance and cause a very early east vs west war? Even though both would be so far stretched with Parthia in the middle if they did try to occupy it. The only upside would be maybe Parthia goes to the negotiation table with Rome and China that they get a collective peace, but given Roman desire to take Parthia. I assume Rome would use an alliance to help them bring Parthia down.
Honestly even if those diplomats had reached Rome, it's hard to imagine anything massive coming out of it. That Chinese guy was right - Rome was too far away to substantially help China in Central Asia and China was too far away to assist Rome. With the time it took to cross the distance, I doubt they could have even co-ordinated actions against the Parthians in between them.
*WELL NARATED AND DOCUMENTED VIDEO!!*
Thanks for doing this story about the Romans helping in the Chinese wars, I remember reading about this years ago and simply forgot 😁👍
Voices of the Past, amazing trendsetter :33
Followed up by Invicta, of course.
@@ericconnor8251 they didn't cover it, but check out BazBattles and HistoryMarche as well, two excellent YT history channels with graphics and similar presentation styles
The silk road connects the two major countries.
One of the biggest What-If’s in History.
The Chinese were more seperated, segregated, secluded, isolated, and exiled but at the same time in a lot of areas more advanced when it came to technological terminologies
Han Dynasty, the namesake of the modern day Chinese Han people, was based on the River Han in modern day Shaanxi, where the founder Liu Bang was proclaimed king by Xiang Yu after the fall of Qin
Not to mention Liu Bang's power base during the Chu-Han Contention was in Hanzhong which was close to the Han River of which he was proclaimed king by his retainers.
What I love about the name Han is that it means universe, which can be interpreted as eternity.
"The Romans were honest."
[Doubt]
They were. If some barbarians hadn't read the fine print it was their damn fault! ;D
How weren't they honest?
@@pes6628 Boudicca and Fritigern would like to have a word with you. 😉
@@unifieddynasty How about Dictator Cincinnatus? By these cherrypicking standards - there are no honest people since every country's leaders used treachery and deceit at some point. Especially politicians and especially back then. I meant Roman society and its values. According to Via Romana, one of the grandest virtues was Veritas - honesty.
In case anyone is asking, I'm sure most Romans were upstanding people, as most people are. I'm just playing on the fact that Roman diplomacy often involved shady things, which would have also been done in kind by any other powerful nation in history. Also Rome keeps betraying my alliance with them and I'm slightly rustled. 🙂
*UA-cam:* So uhh...how many sino-roman relations videos are you guys going to make?
*History youtube channels:* Yes.
Edit: no this is good, its an interesting topic that till recently hasn't been given much attention, especially on YT
@@WarDogMadness It is indeed.
@@WarDogMadness Also because they're being paid to make it
The last time I was up this early, HanXin was crawling through my legs.
4:14 Warlord GG must have been a polite and likable player.
The Book of the Later Han mentions a Roman delegation sent in 161-166 CE to the court of the Han Emperor. They made contact eventually.
It's most likely to be private merchants serving as unofficial delegates of Rome. Since we don't have any Roman source that specified a mission to China.
Thats for another video ;)
Ganying:OK,now I 'm going to Rome
Pathian:you guys,Rome is very far.you must coast 1 year to Rome
Ganying:oh my god,too far i have to report to the emperor.
Roma:?
in fact Ganying was near to the Antioch But Pathian were lie to his.
Basically, these sailors are like the cab drivers in my hometown, always suggesting a farther route from the airport to my place.
Han:we wear silk.
Rome:we wear linen.
Han:we write on paper.
Rome:we write on parchment.
Han:we drink by china.
Rome:we drink by pottery.
Han:we marched north to mongolian grassland,east to korean coast,south to vietnam rainforest,west to conquered hellenistic Tayuen in central asia Fergana Valley.
Rome:we.....
Han yell:sh u t up,you fu c k ing barbarian.Have you ever heared the words from "the who offended the mighty Han empire,shall be eliminated regardless of distance"
Great video and extremely interesting world History! Amazing to thing how close the Han/Roman connection came. No one would sell the Han delegation a good map?!?
What an amazing video!!!! I’ve loved history all my life. Rome in particular! But never have I thought that these two different worlds could meet! And to see that they tired has blown my mind! Well done Kings and Generals! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Amazing video, thank you.
I knew that the Chinese were reasonably aware that the Romans existed. I wonder what if the Chinese had been allowed to make contact with the Roman's. What could have been achieved from such relations with them. Heaven only knows. Get what I mean. My thanks to those who made this video a reality.
we may never know
but possibly in a another universe
There is a sea battle happened between the Fatimids and the Roman (the Byzantine) called (Battle of Al-Majaz) it was in a strait between Sicily and Calabria in south Italy… can you make a video about it ??!!
Oh really? Hell yes!
I feel it’s worth mentioning that the “fish scale” part is very difficult to verify as Romans; all we have is the professor’s theory and the fact that the formation looked like “fish scales”. IIRC we have no description of their equipment beyond that basic appearance.
Yep. It's far more likely those infantrymen were mercenaries from somewhere a lot closer.
It sounds more like a hoplite phalanx to me than a testudo to be honest, and it makes more sense. That area was brought under Alexander's conquest a long time ago. Could be possible these guys were some mercenary hoplites.
Great Video!
Hi K&G! I would like to ask whether or not you have any plans of covering the Boshin war or the Satsuma rebellion any time in the future. It's not covered on YT very well despite being a pivotal event in Japanese history.
Yep, down the line!
Since the TV drama on han xin is all sponsoring, why not consider doing an episode on his battles, one of the top four commanders of Chinese military history. :)