5.7x28mm, 40gr JHP, Speer Gold Dot Revised
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
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5.7 seems like it's getting the 10mm treatment. A bunch of manufacturers down loading the ammo to make it appear softer, but it ruins the point of the cartridge
Yep, but in this case ALL of these loads are ultimately controlled by FNH/FN America's contract with these companies. With the exception of AAC, EA, VG, RRWS. AAC gave us loads out of the gate faster than any FN loading of the same weight.
Like i said before rumor has it that fn caved to the aft in order to avoid getting jammed up over being able to pen soft armor.
Salute to AAC/PSA 🇺🇲
5.7x28 doesn't need to be any softer though
I really don’t think it’s to soften the cartridge. I think it’s related to the shortage of powder right now???
We have an ammo crunch and shortages of nitrocellulose. I think their downloading to either save money or just maintain the market. Either way it’s a shame. I know I’d rather pay the difference and get the real stuff.
They should make an organization to certify ammo as being “up to spec” or in other words it used the right amount of powder to give the correct velocity. This way you look for the logo and if it’s there you know your getting what you paid for.
Also every time they make a velocity claim the test barrel length should be legally required to be there.
I don’t think there’s anyone who’s provided as much useful information on 5.7 as you. My go to source for anything related to it.
2024 is gonna be 5.7's year.
AAC FTW apparently.
this is why i was waiting for the release of the Hornady Critical Defense rounds before entertaining carrying my 5.7 on a rotation. Hopefully it's more AAC than FN
They just announced it. Hornady Black, and Critical Defense. Supposedly is 1810 fps....and if that velocity is not with pistol barrel length then they are dumb.
Really hoping to see a review of that ammo. I might pick some up.
Thank you for taking the time and effort as always Matt. Although this test seems to not have any gains for Speer except maybe for the FTFs, I'm just glad that every day we're experiencing more efforts on improving the 5.7 cartridge. We also experienced this with the more popular 9mm cartridge, whereas 20/30 years ago the 9mm cartridge was stale. Only shortly thereafter, more emphasis took place, where boutique type loads eventually carved the path for performance self defense loads. As for AAC & Palmetto State Armory, there's a lot to be said for their determination and tenacious path, to bring new products for the firearm community.
It's getting more attention and options lately but it's still being crippled by FN. I can't wrap my head around how FN designs and manufactures the guns and ammo, yet it still manages to underload the ammo just enough to effect reliability and expansion. Sometimes I think I bought an expensive .22LR toy rather than a self-defense pistol.
AAC VMAX also my preferred carry
Seems like a lot of stuff has become pussified since the Rona
Wow way to f it up, speer.
Good stuff as always! Thanks Buffman!
My pleasure!
5.7 is like 10mm. So few companies make it correctly so if you don’t roll your own it’s essentially overpriced, useless ammo.
Hey Matt! Hope all is well. As usual, providing great and useful info to the 5.7 community!
Hey, thanks!
I hope we start getting some viable 5.7 loads soon. I understand their are some niche manufacturers. But until we are able to go into a ahop and buy a REAL 5.7 round im afarid its going to slip back into obscurity.
What exactly are you after though? It’s a tiny cartridge, it’s like being upset you can’t get .32 Auto loads that compare to .357 Magnum.
I'm after a load that is actually loaded to proper pressure to maximize effectiveness. Unlike these that have been purposely downloaded to appease political influence. I don't expect unrealistic results. I do however expect optimum performance. Especially when I'm choosing a self defense round. I would expect the same out of ANY round that markets itself to thr consumer as such.
@rifleshooterchannel208 What I mean by optimum performance is that we know without a shadow of doubt that 5.7 with 40 grain loads is more than capable of getting to 1850 maybe even 1900 fps. I've even heard of some reloaders being withing pressure ranges and getting to 2000 fps. Those numbers would put this round into pretty excellent specs.
@@XxKnivesNGunsxX 1900+ with the 40gr is really pushing it. I mean if you really look at it, SS197 actually has fairly good performance and I can’t legitimately say hot-rodding it would offer much benefit.
If they make a factory load 40gr VMAX that’s a true 1800 from the pistol, that’s about the maximum _practical_ performance envelope in my opinion.
But when you look at it, even the most amazing boutique 5.7x28 ammo isn’t as powerful or as well performing as even basic 115gr Winchester White Box JHP in 9mm so it’s really chasing mediocrity.
@rifleshooterchannel208 EA regularly loads 40 grain to 2000 fps that's 355 ft lbs. For comparison Speers 115 gold dot 9mm is 375. With this round specifically it HAS been purposely pud loaded. We see what this specific round has the potential for with the longer barrels which lead to higher velocity. My assumption is with the increase in popularity of 5 7 Speers lawyers have had them "re design" this round to neuter its performance. As far as chasing mediocrity goes while it may be true that 5.7 under performs right now that may not always be the case. 20 years ago 9mm was considered rather anemic. But manufacturers and balistic testers worked on different bullet designs and velocities and now have 9mm to the point where it is basically considered the "gold standard" in self defense. The difference those two cartridges have aside from basic design is political. No politician or lawyer gave a damn about 9mm so manufacturers were free to experiment unabated. 5.7 on the other hand has an absurd "cop killer" reputation that is hampering its evolution. All I hope is that one day manufacturers will allow it to push past "mediocrity" and allow it to flourish which based upon what "hot rodders" shown. It can do even with sub optimal bullet designs.
For the algorithm!
Dogs and Cats!
Taylor Swift & MrBeast
Fleece Johnson
@@TheFaceStabberbuffman is cooler than those bums.
Anemic velosity.
These make me stay on the fence about getting a 5.7
Love these tests. You are the ammo nerd indeed 😂
Any plans to test out the new Hornady Black and Critical Defense 5.7 ammo? Sounds like they just recently announced it.
Always hard to know what to think with clear gel tests since it's proven to result in less expansion than actual ballistics gel. I've seen this version of the bullet shot into calibrated organic gel in person. Every round pulled from the gel looked exactly like the image on the box. The velocity difference is puzzling though.
When did you see this shot into organic gel? Some of the attempts at correlating clear vs organic did show under expansion in clear, but nothing huge (.005" or something). It did say they tend to favor over penetration though, which if that's the case, then in organic all of these would be close to failing ?
Did anyone there for the testing you saw in person happen to have a phone with them?
Anyone upload the video?
@@BuffRANGE There's a guy with channel (DanTheWolfman) that is going to apparently have Federal/Spear/CCI Product Manager Real Ballistics Expert Chris Laack in a discussion on Saturday about clear vs. organic.
If you search "Chris Laack" you should get a hit and able to choose to be notified.
I'm pretty sure I already know what will be said, but will still try to catch it.
I could probably go on for an hour at the fallacies involved with dismissing clear-gel simply because it's not a perfect match to 10% organic.
@@BuffRANGE it was a ballistics demo Speer was putting on for Gold Dot. Though they did shoot some Federal as well as anything the audience brought. I still have an expanded bullet somewhere. Gel was pulled out of a cooler checked for temp and shot bb calibration on the spot. The Speer rep didn't have 5.7 with them, but some was provided by an attendee. They shot it strait out of someone's carry gun I believe. Bullets looked good. They specifically mentioned not being able to use clear gel in development due to it not actually correlating to FBI calibrated organic stuff, something like only 70%, and that being critical to compare to the real world data they had.
It’s so nice to see pistol braces back on TV!!
I never stopped showing them...
Thanks for going through the all these test. For me I’ll stick with the FMJ from AAC. Have you tried any reloads with the 42gr zinc FMJ?
@BuffRANGE you should do a review on THE VANGUARD OUTFITTERS - ZOMBO-DOWN 35gr polymer tipped lead free ammo claiming 2180 FPS from fiveseven pistol and 2875 FPS from PS90
This effectively looks very much like the 35gr Hornady NTX bullet..
I wonder how these feed in the AR57 and the P90. Looks like they narrowed up the tip to promote feeding as this round was notorious for being unreliable in these two firearms.
They told me on the phone they changed the design for better feeding in the Ruger 57..
@@BuffRANGE Now that's a hoot because the fact that this round is unreliable in the P90 and AR57 is all over the internet. And it's because of the blunted nose and the fact that there are no real feed ramps in the AR57 (you know this but some of your readers don't). Oh and thx for the video and response. You do great work!
The reason 5.7 will not thrive is not because it’s expensive, its all to do with unpowered ammunition. Why manufacturers choose to load the 5.7 to the anemic velocities that they do is beyond me. Even the ss198lf is underpowered. How can EA load the 5.7 S4 ammo to the velocity that they do and FN wont.
EA will be downloading S4 after Jay said he broke cams on both the PSA Rock and FN FiveseveN with the current pressure. Just because the barrel can handle the pressure doesn't mean the action can, sadly. Jay said that it will still pen IIIA, so it should be all good in the end.
For more info, refer to Jay's video about Bad Cams. He explains everything brilliantly :)
Was Joe Biden involved in the redesign?
It was designed after Joe Biden's 😴
This reeks of a Trump style bait and switch.
Great video
So what's the best 5.7 round? Paul Harrel says T6B and Black Dragon Fang are "gimmicky" rounds and not worth the money
Vanguard Outfitters Black Dragon Fang
Elite Ammo T6B
Elite Ammo Dev 2.0/3.0
Elite Ammo S4
RR Weapon Systems R37X
Elite Protector 1 (or any 40gr ballistic tip at 1900 fps+)
SS190
AAC Vmax
Speer Gold Dot
SS198LF
Or thereabouts in that order. :)
thoughts on the accuracy of #1 and #1? (in the order you provided)@@BuffRANGE
@@tihnsorfjw Accuracy of the BDF/VF is good in 8"+ barrels. Mediocre in pistols. T6B in it's current iteration without a boat tail is poor.
I'm strictly shooting out of the fn 5.7 pistol. If I favor accuracy, then is the S4 the best choice for that pistol?@@BuffRANGE
@@tihnsorfjw I'd have to test S4 out of the FN 5.7. IN terms of potential accuracy (removing the shooter ) PSA > FN > Ruger > MP..
Really trying Trying to learn everything about 5.7.
I like the close and midrange accuracy. But ammo gives you a wide variety of performance.
Im planning on starting with the p50.
Almost 10in seems to get 90% out of the ammo.
It does seem like some types of ammo dont work well in the barrel. So getting a education.
So thanks for the real world experiences.
Can you do a run through of the Kal Tek p50. Not on its performance but just on its issues with what models of ammo, an is it something that can be mitigated with a machinist or add-on?
9-10" is where 5.7 was originally designed. Most .224" caliber bullets companies are stuffing in there become a compromise because they were designed to have different terminal affect at like 2x the velocity.. P50 review here; ua-cam.com/video/JbOz04r7GEU/v-deo.html
@@BuffRANGE stuffing is a bullet terminology for let me guess over or under pressure then?
Ill watch that link next.
@@anarex0929 Sorry I should expanded on that more. 5.7's bullet diameter is .224". That means you can use a ALOT of bullets from various other calibers such as .22 HORNET, .223 Remington, and 5.56 NATO to name a few. Some of those bullets are lighter varmint bullets. Those are designed for shallow penetration and lots of velocity. When you slow them down and shoot them in 5.7 they don't work the same. The Speer Gold Dot 40gr we tested here was one of a few bullets specifically designed to work in the performance threshold of 5.7x28mm :D
@@BuffRANGE watching the video and literally taking notes thanks 🙏🏼
@@BuffRANGE Are their any rounds that would be capple of making a vehicle engine stop, not instantly but within a min or so from catastrophic damage?
Im from vegas and we just had two people be run down intentionally by motorist. A bicycle, scooter, different cars choose different targets. But they come for us just the same even when we take the sidewalk.
One was the retired police chief and he died, the other survived.
Ive been hit and run 6 times and some barely survived "not" including the ones it was a accident and they helped or got help.
Ive also run into times when cars will chase me down commercial district's for sport while im going to work or getting where I need to go. Its ugly but it is what it is.
I know any descent round can go through a windshield, but if I just wanted to break the engine instead of un living them. Dangerous yes but IF hypothetically.
I could get away on my onewheel or e-bike without un deading anyone, then call the cops and let them look at my body cam and let the lawyers speak for me.
"I would much prefer that." So can I ask a gray area question.
Hypothetically:
Which rounds can go through a pickup truck door and still make the drive say, that hurts?
An what round make the car say ouch that hurts, im going to rapidly lose the ability to go fast.
An no im not betting on tires. If I'm going to risk my life to try not to un alive them then I want the car to take a break.
I dont care how it breaks down, I just want to be able to hit the engine while a truck more likely comes at me by what ever temp cover I can get.
Please keep in mind I've had to do this before and I barely survived with only knives. It sucks, a lot of di@k. An all you get is bone breaks, an limbs coming off.
Call me a model law abiding citizen that finds a odd thing he needs to protect himself from that comes to him.
Like tons of job less behavior going on..
So what rounds say hi through doors and breakup after or preferably in them and what rounds can make a car engine tear itself apart?
Please 🙏🏼. Nothing more disturbing than looking into the face of someone trying to run you down for fun. Last time it happened was 1yr ago, 2 times in a month apart different drivers different races. I was in a bike lane going over a bridge to get home while the truck yelling wreck and honking their horn and coming close enough to brush me with there sub 50mph pass wind curtain. Trust me its way to close for a OneWheel.
Had I not been viewing to the right and keeping my balance I would have gone under the vehicle or been hit by it, because while it wasn't their intention to hit me I do believe the driver was looking at me and therefore swerving towards me without him realizing it. (You go where your looking, rookie mistake) I was on a bridge with nowhere to hide.
Sir the games they play are risking my life, because trust me they are NOT 🚫 the type to call a ambulance 🚑 for me if they fuck up or intentionally do it.
Ive had to limp to safety with my insides a bit on the outsides.
The other experience I was on the sidewalk and I got him on 2K camera looking at me when he nearing makes me t bone him in a minivan with his wife/girlfriend.
Then he starts chasing me into neighborhoods that had trees.
Its a horrible feeling even worse when they wont give up.
Knowledge isn't the user but dammit man the savages drive around in 2ton missiles and grinders.
How about some hypothetical information.
FN 198LF green tip are armor piercing. The velositybis a little over 2000 fps. Blue tips rub 1800 or so fps.
SS198LF is not "Armor Piercing" by definition because it does not have a core material that meets that federal definition. It does have the ability to defeat multiple types of soft armor, but a lot of modern PE IIIA will stop it. I have various videos of IIIA stopping SS198LF even from longer barrels.
That's a shame, obviously velocity doesn't effect feeding. If I had to guess the company liability lawyers got involved here concerning the possibility for armor penetration.
OR FN for that matter.
Looks like they should designate this as rifle round only for expansion
The lower velocity could also be the temp from this bone chilling polar vortex. shame they made this loading worse
They were well over 100 fps slower in my test, too & definitely weren't that foul nasty cold weather (in AZ).
Hey Buffman, do you plan on testing 7.5 FK in the future?
I think the dropped the powder charge by about 0.5 grains.
Yep by about .5-.6 gr :O
I have 100 rounds of the original Gold Dot.
I'm afraid to shoot it because I can't replace it lol.
I’d definitely keep it as long as possible
I am tired of buying under powered 57x28.
I'm sticking with Elite Ammunition , R&R weapon systems and Vanguard.
Every other company out there makes the same ammo. It might as well be from federal or american eagle....all junk.
As long as Fiocchi is loading this it will never be loaded to its full potential. I wish Speer would contract AAC….
Hi Matt what was the amb. Temp. That day?
Is it possible it had to do lower velocity?
Labdan
42F. Yes we lose about 1.5fps or so for every 1F degree in most powders. We’d see more velocity at 75-80F But the original load tested on the same day was still faster :)
I remember when this round was about to come out and then did and people were charging $2-$3+ per round.
Then SG Ammo had it for less than a buck a round
I got some and must say I was underwhelmed to put it lightly. No expansion, pedals sheared off. This was the original load for pistols. Out of a pistol
I have gone strictly to the SS198 green tip, SS195 as secondary and VG vampire fang and the other one.
The 198 and VG get through level IIIa every single time.
The GD has yet to make it through,
The tumble of the top 3 is where it’s at.
Gold Dot messed this up. And I feel sorry for those who paid those stupid prices
Ss198 doesn’t penetrate IIIa every single time. Its velocity only works on Aramid and low class PE IIIa. BDF and VG are Better. I’m curious what version you had because the original 6 petal design wasn’t out for long.
It was the 4 pedal like you tested in the video I think. Sheared all the pedals every time.
My level IIIa was Kevlar so I’m thinking that’s why it happened. A name brand and expensive.
Which panel type would you recommend?
What are your thoughts on the
VG monumental 36 grain HP?
I have some of it and haven’t tested it. Tests online show
2103 FPS / 354 ft-lbs from a 5” pistol.
Wound channel looks good. With 17” of penetration. Shears all the pedals and the base keeps going
@@sbtiger556I feel the petal shears don’t go deep enough on the GPM. Its video is done but I need to edit it. Look for it in about a month or so
Thanks for confirming...I was curious if a good load of this bullet in the mid-1800s would perhaps look decent and if it was just the slow speed giving us the poor results.
Your 8" test also showed a big "meh".
Sadly, I wouldn't want to use it even if they had kept it in the 1800s.
Buffman. So what's your favorite round for 57 pistols/ self defense?
Probably a mix of t6B, BDF, RRWS R37x, or AAC Vmax or EA Pro 1.
@@BuffRANGE gotcha. thanks
@@neilsmith3986 A lot of it comes down to availability and that precludes a LOT of EA"s ammo. So that leaves VG and RRWS
@@BuffRANGE understood. I leave the EA's alone but have VG, speer, SS198LF. Haven't tried the RRWS yet
I still need protector and dev 3.0 🤦🏻♂️
These suck, what the hell were they thinkin? What was wrong with the old design?
Brother, thank you for commenting and offering Mike..aka..you know who..the proper ammo during his next video..if it's going to happen? His video was very ...ugh.
I can contact him but I have a feeling he at times just doesn’t make content to scratch an itch.
@BuffRANGE I completely agree. Honestly, I was a bit saddened. However, then realized that . Well..Mike..likes maybe Mike better than us commonplace folks.
Hence why I thank you again for your trueness.
I like the guns the capacity they have especially the PSA rock, but the bullet is the one thing that's not so great,
But the case of the 5.7x28mm is a great point for the perfect easy modification,
Use the 5.7x28mm case but keep it as a straight walled round and load it with 30/32cal bullets,
Imagine a 23 plus 1 pistol in 327x28mm,
Everyone's favourite bullet designs that are made in 9mm have a cousin in 30/32 and there the same style no a completely different design like this golddot compared to the 9mm, there completely different,
Also the power fpe is not great and that's because of the bullet not the barrel or gun or the case,
With that case capacity and the barrel length were talking at least the most powerful 327 federal magnum and beyond,
500fpe would be no problem,
And all it needs is a barrel swop and heavier spring,
Basically do to the 5.7x28mm what 350 legend is to 223,
Hard to think why a large ammunition manufacturer hasn't done it as it requires no new investment or tooling,
It's existing bullets and brass just don't neck down the case,
And the conversion is also as simple as can be,
And with all the new guns coming out having a different calibre for them like with other guns would be awesome and would make people look differently at them as the 5.7 puts lots of people of,
But a 23 +1 500fpe+ 100gr hst 327 automag pistol is a different animal.
I somehow feel this is going to happen to the 30 Supercarry.
That's rather bothersome. What was the production date on your sample ammo? I just bought a bunch of this right before Christmas with provisions of using it as carry ammo.
2022, 2023. This results velocity and design wise have not changed from the lot used in the video.
Hmm
Good video 👍
I think Speer needs to bifurcate their 5.7 line into two. Sell the old bullet as pistol and the new bullet as rifle. It doesn't look like they are able to create a single ammunition that works in both categories. The loss of velocity is concerning as well.
IF 5.7x28 could push a 35-40gr projectile 2500fps from a 10” barrel I might be all about it, but I don’t think it’s capable of it as designed or ever will be…. I do wonder about sabot designs though using a larger bore and smaller projectile in the sabot to accelerate up to a much higher velocity for short barrels….
Just use 5.56 if that’s what you want, the 50gr tsx goes 2750 out of a 7 inch barrel. It just sounds like a flash bang going off.
@@ryandahlgren8628 Or use it in an 11.5" barrel AR15...
@@Enjoyer.762 the point is to achieve PDW status, 11.5 is slightly above that.
@@ryandahlgren8628 8 or 9 inch .300blk. 5.7x28 blowz.
Wired wired
I personally had an awful experience with these. I found a projectile rattling around in the magazine after it was dislodged from the casing. After contacting Speer and sending the round back they determined it came loose from cycling the round through the gun, a Ruger 57. I was able to get a refund and went with a different round as my carry. 🤷🏽
Yep no collet crimp this will continue to happen
Did Fiocchi load this?
Yes, they do.
I want a 5.7 but I want a 7.5 brno more
ohh a 7.5 FK I want one too>!@
@@BuffRANGE you are a true man of culture have you tested any canik's out with freedomsmith trigger shoes yet?
@@jammbbs1688 I have never shot a single Canik. :(
@@BuffRANGE please do yourself a favor get one and get the proper freedomsmith trigger shoe or just get one with a flat face trigger already the newer models but still you take away take up with a freedomsmith trigger and they already have amazing triggers you really need to try one man
If only Garand Fraud got some s4m, t6b, and Dragon Fangs for his test. Gotta love a giga tier content creator with a bad case of intellectual dishonesty.
"If only he got these very expensive limited production boutique loads the average consumer isn't going to purchase" lmao.
@@Enjoyer.762 Dragon Fangs are pretty much always available lol.
@@MesoTroniK not at any retailer they are not
The guy gets to fire only-example-in-the-US museum pieces, and decent 5.7 ammo is too much to ask? Sure, it's expensive and difficult to get, but defense-worthy 5.7 ammo is more obtainable by non-FFL/SOT normies than a lot of the stuff he features.
@@timewave02012 You're right. He should have used SS190, which still has less tissue disruption and penetration depth than a quality 9x19 hollow point.
Oof
that doesn't really look like a JHP.
well it 1) has a jacket and 2) has a hollow front cavity :D
Very disappointing
Great video
Thanks for the visit