Downplaying championships because of an "easy rout" or injuries etc. Yes, not every run is equal, but a ring is a ring. You could put an asterisk on every years winner if you wanted.
@@TheDarkbluerock people still try to downplay warriors championships because of “luck” it’s funny they say this but the players that lost weren’t saying they was lucky or the ones that won but the fans try to kind of speak for them and always wanna put and asterisk on something because maybe there favorite team Loss and are really just sore losers
That LeBron and many younger players today are weak because they play in a less physical era compared to older fans' eras because by that logic the players of their eras would be considered weak to even older more physical eras as well. An athlete should not be critiqued/diminished from rules they have to follow in their sport whether you like the rules or not.
The 4-6 thing is more about his total record. When people talk about his failures the series vs the Spurs are never mentioned, because we understand that he had a weak team. We don't critique his first loss despite being swept because we understand the context of it.
I think it has to deal with that the NBA is VERY INDIVIDUALIZED to the point where people disregard teams and just expect a player to do everything to win a game
couldn’t have said it better, and the marketing in the 80s have a lot to do with how majority of the fans perceive the game. its never a consistent criteria for all players.
@@jamaalsjourney That's gotta be one of the dumbest things Ive ever heard. That bulls team without Jordan isn't even in the 90th percentile of championship contenders. And that team wasn't even a top 10 offence in the league it WAS IN at the time without Jordan. Great players, dynasty, phenomenal team play, sure but a superteam? Literally the furthest from it
@@cumbusta9175 But you just contradicted yourself. Far fewer teams means the talent isn't as spread out. So even if there were fewer number of quality players in the US, having far fewer teams means the talent there is was concentrated.
@@mitoski7427 It was not 'way worse'. They had far fewer teams at 8 which concentrated the pool. It certainly was worse but not 'way worse'. Even the folks at Thinking Basketball have talked about how lots of the stats with adjustment to league averages become problematic in the 60's because fewer teams means more concentrated talent which means it's harder to perform the equal distant to the league average compared to when there are 30 teams. And if you look at their games and consider the rules and enforcement of rules of that era, there is no reason to think Wilt would not be just as good as shaq if Wilt played in a later era and no reason to think West wouldn't be a top 5 player during any era he played. Bill Russel size and athleticism remind me of Alonzo Morning but with more defensive awareness.
I'm okay with casual fans to have those takes. The problem is that so-called "sports analysts" like Nick Wright and Skip Bayless are the ones who perpetuate those takes for clicks, which make fans think those are valid opinions.
Exactly. You can't expect every casual fan to have a deep understanding of the game, but it's *criminal* when the paid analysts are perpetuating this bullshit.
8:26 This right there should be the textbook rebuttal to the "1-9 without Pippen" narrative. A 30 second basketball reference search will tell you that MJ, in his first playoff series win, averaged more points than his next 5 best teammates COMBINED, the Cavs would have swept them if it weren't for MJ. He carried them again the next season all the way to the conference finals, once again averaging 40 points and hitting "the shot" against the cavs and was the only team to take any games off the Pistons that year. I actually am amazed that this narrative, being so stupid, is able to persist for so long when an easy search could have debunked it completely
A critique that drives me insane is comparing shooting percentages and numbers of threes from greats with modern players because of the way offenses and defenses were different, as well as the rules.
There's a video by a youtuber that calls Larry Bird and Overrated shooter comparing his 3 point percentage to 3 point shooters in the modern era ignoring context like Larry Bird didn't grow up with the 3 point line and it was a newly introduced rule in his rookie career He made the 50 40 90 club TWICE, he shot over 40% at the 3 point range 4 years in a row that without growing up and chucking 3's like modern NBA players who have practiced and perfected it since they were teens
shooting % in general is a fawed stat. imo they shouldn't count dunks, layups or put backs (especially put backs) as shots. at least separate these from distance shooting stats. Deandre jordan is not one of the best shooters ever, but in terms of shooting % he's #1 or soething lmao.
Of course like most fans, they have no idea about the 2007 finals. Look up the score of each game which all were close. And look up Lebrons performance in each of those games. It will become obvious very quickly that those so called "bums" on Cleveland kept them in every game and one guy was the cause for the losses, but nobody brings it up
I think 2018 was a great run because his stats were off the charts but didn’t really beat any good teams on his way to Finals especially in 2007 plus he played terrible vs Spurs which everyone leaves that part out including this video the East was historically bad in 07 the Cavs would have been the 6th seed with 50 wins and played the 3rd seed Spurs in the 1st rd and been swept then if he played in the west he basically beat 1 good team in Pistons and that was after B Wallace had left
I’m a Jordan fan but I got a lot of love for Kobe and Bron. I don’t see why we just can’t have our own GOATs and live in peace. All 3 were different players in different eras, let’s live in peace
That’s what I’m saying. Growing up, I was always a Kobe fan. Now that I’m a bit older and learn more and more about the game, I grow an appreciation for many legends that have come and go. I don’t know why so many “fans” feel the need they only have to respect or ride for one player while diminishing every other player that is seen as “The G.O.A.T”. I still have faith that when Bron retires, people will wake up and appreciate his career like how we appreciate the careers of Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan.🫱🏽🫲🏼
If not for fabricated arguments, and click bait debates .. and trash hot take culture %70 of the media people consumed wouldn't exist. As much as I hate it, the goat debate is worth millions. And its worth a Billion to Nike who have 3 of the major goat debate participants signed.
Yes but when you break down the deep metric analytics and the eye test, there is one player that is far superior than the other 2 🤷♂️.... he retired 20 years ago.
I think the problem is for serious fans, there isn't much of an argument that LeBron was better than Jordan and also not a much of an argument Kobe was better than LeBron. Ultimately doesn't matter but just shows some bad takes when I see many of these discussions.
I always got mad when people were discrediting Jokic's 2nd MVP. The argument was about his seeding in the West, which was below Embiid's Sixers. In reality, they had almost the same record, but Jokic was playing with a subpar company. P.S: Jonny Top 3 NBA youtuber. Nothing but facts and great takes.
You and the guys at Synthetic Sports have gotten me back into basketball… So much so that I’m contemplating joining a local rec league! Tysm for your content.
This just might be the single most important basketball video upload in today's over-analyzed, hyper-critical social media coverage of today's NBA and its players, both past and present.
In the words of Rusty Buckets in the last minute of his Goatmentary: “Appreciate Greatness. You can think MJ is the GOAT without tearing down LeBron and vice versa.”
@@fortynights1513 LeBron has had possibly the greatest career, indeed. However shining a light on what is overlooked is not tearing down, btw. It's more like clarity. Trouble with LeBron is that he is still nowhere near the BEST player ever, with only a single b2b. The surest measure of league dominance is b2b titles. You can't just get thrown off the hill the next year after you've won one and be called "the best ever". And no goat goes under .500 in title games, not in any sport. Playing with more all-stars than anyone for longer than almost anyone, he should have won more than anyone short of Bill Russell (8-team league). Another thing - for his career LBJ was always coddled (rule and refereeing changes to his favor, media excuses, the self-boasting klanks and on and on). _What makes one great is what they had to overcome and how they did it while STAYING on top._ It is what it is.
@@shaft9000 as another commenter in here said, championships shouldn't be such a large part of a person's invididual greatness as they are literally the most team based award of the entire game
@shaft9000 lebron wasn't coddled. No one has gotten critiques to the same level he does. I feel like you didn't watch the video and you are just proving that logic will never prevail in the goat debate and greatness will never be appreciated the way it should be
@Jeff Jeff if you Wana tear down lebron you have to bring yo championship. It's all they got. You make a great point but people will just use what fits their narrative
As with everything in life, context is everything. Thanks for highlighting this fact and exposing, yet again, the lazy talking heads and their dumb narratives. These people are old enough to have watched these games but clearly, didn't or refuse to acknowledge the truth. Well done.
1:12 I’ve definitely used his finals record in arguments, Lebron making the finals in 2007 is crazy it’s only his 3rd season and he’s already made the finals
I mean, a lot of people watching this video have. Just to be clear, my point isn’t to shame people, im just trying to point out why I don’t think they’re valid arguments.
4th season. The 07-Cavs supporting cast gave LeBron the same offensive production as the 91-Bulls gave Jordan, they also had the number one defense in the Playoffs. Far better team than they are given credit for
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 big mistake by comparing teams that are decades apart. Believe was Far different in 1998 then it was in 2007. The Cavs had the 18th rated offense and the league. The Bulls had the first rated offense most of there Championship runs.
Jabbar is the actually the GOAT. With 3 NCAA titles, 3 Naismith awards, 6 NBA MVP's and 6 NBA titles. No one else on this list has has a career that in any way compares to this guys resume. PERIOD!
I don't understand how anyone could critique Jordan. The only critique I could think of is he would've won more and peaked longer if he didn't retire the first time and wasn't a cigar smoking golf gambling maniac lol
I think Johnny was referring to me with my copy and paste, but I'll say it again Michael Jordan played five seasons without Scottie Pippen 84-85 38-44..First round exit 85-86. 30-52..First round exit 86-87. 40-42...First round exit 01-02. 37-45..out of playoffs 02-03. 37-45..out of playoffs LeBron james carried an absolutely horrific 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers team to the nba finals In the modern NBA era (post 1960) only eight NBA top 75 players have won a championship without another top 75 player as a teammate Rick Barry (1975) Hakeem Olajuwon (1994) Tim Duncan (2005) (2007) Kobe Bryant (2009) (2010) Steph Curry (2015) (2022) LeBron james (2016) Kawhi Leonard (2019) Giannis Antetokounmpo (2021) As you can see, LeBron James is on the list and Michael Jordan isnt Lebron james has won 17 playoff series, without an nba top 75 teammate. Michael Jordan won ZERO In the year before Michael Jordan and LeBron James joined their team and the year after they left their team, their records were 83-84 bulls 27-55 84-85 bulls. 38-44 92-93 bulls 57-25 93-94 bulls 55-27 98-99 bulls 13-37 without Scottie Pippen 00-01 wizards 19-63 01-02 wizards. 37-45 02-03 wizards 37-45 03-04 wizards 25-57 02-03 cavaliers 17-65 03-04 cavaliers 35-47 09-10 cavaliers 61-21 10-11 cavaliers 19-63 09-10 heat. 47-35 10-11 heat 58-24 14-15 heat 37-45 2013-14 cavaliers 33-49 2014-15 cavaliers 53-29 2017- 18 cavaliers 50-32 2018-19 cavaliers 19-63 2017-18 lakers. 35-47 2018-19 lakers were 20-14 when LeBron James got injured on Christmas day. As you can see When LeBron James joins a team, the team improves more than Michael Jordan and when LeBron James leaves a team, the team always goes into the tank. Michael Jordan, excluding the 94-97 seasons, when the NBA moved the three point line to 22 feet, was a career 28% three point shooter. LeBron James is a career 34% three point shooter Michael Jordan was a great defensive player, in an Era where you could handcheck. Playing defense is much easier when you can handcheck. For nearly 6'9 250 LeBron James' entire career he wasn't afforded the opportunity to handcheck. THE EVIDENCE IS CLEAR..LEBRON JAMES IS THE GOAT!!!!!
Ppl who think Jordan is not the GOAT will find any tiny reason to diminish his greatness in favor of their favorite players. I’ve always felt the critiques of Jordan are never applied to other players (I.e. needing teammates, struggling early on in his career versus all time superteams). To Jordan detractors, they act like the only way Jordan could be the GOAT is if he won a championship, MVP, FMVP, DPOY, while averaging a triple double in all 15 years that he played. Nevertheless, all GOAT candidates are held to a high standard, and some absurd criticisms do exist for other greats. Jordan is my GOAT though.
What drives me crazy is the extreme emphasis some fans/members of the media place on championships. Using championships, a team award, as the primary measure of individual greatness is madness and ignores a whole bunch of details and nuances that get lost to history. Chips are a part of the puzzle, but they aren't everything. Edit: For those who disagree with me, here is an example. I just watched an interview between JJ Redick and Tim Legler. I'm paraphrasing here, but Tim said that if in 2016 Draymond doesn't punch LeBron in the privates, then Warriors went on to win the championship (presumably because Dray's suspension might have affected the outcome of the finals), and everything else plays out the same in the years to come, then Curry is probably a top 5 player all-time. How does that make sense??? Curry didn't throw a punch at LeBron. Dray did. But because Curry doesn't have another ring for that, we're going to penalize him??? Madness I say.
The whole point of the game is to be a champion, literally, otherwise why play? why create playoff games? Etc. So it stands to reason that a major factor in deciding how great a player was is the number of chips he has, because only great teams win championships, and great teams always have great players.
@@travis5732 regardless you can be the best player in the world and with a shitty team you’ll just come up short. It’s the front offices job to build a hood tram around their star. How te is that up to the star? He can’t control what teammates he gets if he’s on a contract😂
@@travis5732 But great players don’t always have great teams, and you need a great team to win championships. Especially when making a great team is out of the hands of the players most of the time, it’s ridiculous to hold a championship as the end all be all for determining how great a player is.
@@travis5732 I fully disagree and will use an absurd hypothetical to make my point. Let's say the number 1 draft pick goes to a team that won 7 games the previous season. That team made absolutely 0 adjustments to the team/ the coaches, or the front office. They go on to win 75 games that year while the number 1 pick wins rookie of the year, dpoy, mvp and the scoring title while averaging 35-15-10 with 10 stocks a game. No one else on the team gets a single accolade. They get to the post season and go 15-0, then in the 16th game, they're up 25 going into the 4th quarter when the number 1 pick has a paul George-esque leg break. They then lose the game and series in devastating fashion. Should that number 1 not be seen as an all time great because he didn't win a chip?
@@michaelbietsch2864 He will be seen as a great player, but not an all time great. Instead he will become moreso a ‘What if’ because he wasn’t able to win it all
Don’t forget about when MJ finally got past the Piston’s in a sweep bc “they got old,” not bc MJ avg 30ppg on 54% from the field, 7apg, and 5rpg. It was bc Joe Dumar was 27, but it had already been 2yrs since he was the finals MVP, and Isiah Thomas, who won the finals MVP the year before was already 29 and so was Rodman who was coming off back-2-back DPoYs but those were in ‘89 and ‘90 so, kinda washed up by then. So the 3 HoFers and the core of their team was all under 30 but to be fair, their center was 35! and Bill Laimbeer was 33! (Younger than MJ the year he won MVP, All Star MVP, Finals MVP, scoring champ, 1st team all-D, but still, pretty old!)….I just saw a UA-cam video from a year ago where Nick Wright actually said “Jordan lost in the first round 3 times, Lebron lost in the first round as many times as you or I who didn’t even play in the league. And only beat the Piston’s when they got old. All those things I just said are facts!” I truly have never watched a sports talking head that I wanted to physically harm like when I watch his stupid ugly rat face arrogantly spout bullshit that he makes a point to reiterate are FACTS. Bc Lebron didn’t make the playoffs his first year, so technically counts. and bc the only 2 out of 5 players on the ‘91 Pistons who aren’t in the HoF we’re in their 30s
Wilt & Bill played against a bunch of 5 foot 2 inch white guys. A simple google search tells anyone the average height was within a half inch of being the same today as it was 60 years ago. Also that in the last couple generations this magical evolution happened that made the athletes we see today. The players in the 60’s were still world class athletes, yet everyone acts like they were the equivalent of their middle school gym coach.
For sure. I addressed that one in a video a couple months ago. In short, Kobe was LEAD by Shaq. "Carried" is waaay too strong of a word based on Kobe's crucial impact
@@jonnyarnett Kobe to Shaq in the best Kobe performance was like Lebron To AD this year. Its clearly AD's team and they don't win if AD isn't a mega star but Lebron is is a huge part of the team nonetheless.
@@Homer-OJ-Simpson lol. It's not the same comparison. Lebron and AD are much closer in impact to eachother in 2023 than Kobe was in any of the Lakers championship playoff runs.
This video is so well made !! Great research, great analysis!! This is time well invested if you want to understand basketball history. Thx for uploading!!
Great video as always, Jonny! I would love to see you do a counterpart to this one: "3 Praises that Drive Me INSANE! Things people tout a player for that you feel are ridiculous, misleading or are just making a mountain out of a mole hill.
"LeBron isn't clutch" or "Until LeBron won in 2012, he wasnt clutch". Is one that always puts question marks over my head. The man had 2 game winners in his first playoff series, two more game winners from 2007 ECF game 5 & 2009 ECF game 2. So before he even left Cleveland he already had a resume of playoff game winners and all time playoff performances.
2nd one is honestly fair. When you are not the favorite to win, it takes a lot of pressure off and makes it easier to be clutch. The first time he was in the finals as the favorite on the Heat, he choked hard. I honestly think that was a huge wake up call to him.
@Jake Terpening He had a big clutch performance at the end of the closeout game against Boston in 2011 and in one of the Bulls games too - as the favorite. LeBron did unravel in the 2011 finals, the Mavs defense exposed his weaknesses, but other than that one series, his entire career was borderline immaculate when it came to "Clutch". One bad series doesn't erase a career's worth of accomplishments, imo.
LeBron's clutch and anyone who disagrees are either stupid or just plain dumb. Sure he had the worst meltdown of a superstar in the history, but that doesn't change the fact that he has countless clutch moments both regular and in the playoffs. Defensively or Offensively. Before 2012 and After 2012.
LeBron James is the most overrated athlete in sports history Career zone shooting %s: 35% 10-16ft (mid-range) 34% 16ft+ on 6 3pta per game 72%FT line = Can't shoot (A - Little to no flaws/Perfection B - Effective C - League average D - Below average F - Inadequate/no skill) Perimeter Defense: F Reading passing lanes: C Stealing the ball: D Help defense: F Interior Defense: B Lateral quickness: D Hasn't made an All-Defensive team in 10+yrs (the years he did I looked wasn't even Top 5 in stls and blks for that season and his DBPM was low compared to others) Led the league in pts let up on defensive 1on1 situations (2012-13 - interestingly one of the same seasons he almost won a DPOY proving how overrated the man is) = Can't play defense On shots with 1min. or less to tie or to win the game LeBron James in the regular season is 19/96 (19%), in the playoffs is 9/25 (36%), and in the finals is 0/7 (0%) ... and to add insult to injury the majority of those shots didn't even win the game. They either tied, went into OT and they won or lost. Now he has the most buzzer beaters in the playoffs, but they aren't game winners so is it really clutch? = Isn't clutch = No handles/finesse = A passive leader who doesn't improve his teammates. Only limits their skill level When properly evaluating LeBrons career the man realistically isn't even a Top 5 player All-Time
@@jaketerpening3284 Doesn't take away his performance in 07 where he rallied his team 25 pts in the last quarter and ot. Or his game winner in 09 against Orlando and many more. He's clutch ever since. Media just amplified his choke job in 2011 to a point where every clutch moments he have and had is negated by one performance. And until this day, someone like skip holds it dear to his heart and you would hear him talk about it every day since that's where most of his fame and fortune came from
I think when we’re talking about people at this level, the goat just comes down to personal preference. All of these guys were so good, so much fun to watch, and led their teams to such incredible heights. So while it is fun to debate, it’s ridiculous anyone gets mad about it. I watched the tail end of MJs career, grew up watching Kobe’s career, and have seen all of Lebrons career. All three of them were incredible, and deserve to be apart of the discussion
@@tupacalypse88 seriously. Anyone of those guys has a good argument to be the goat. What we should really be doing is just appreciating how good these guys are, and enjoying their games
Yeah and the team had a lot of 20-23 year olds that got better as a result of playing one more year. In year prior, Carlos boozer was 21, Ricky Davis 23, and and Darius Miles 21. That would be 40% of their teams scoring, a bunch or players under age 23 the year before.
@@Homer-OJ-Simpson good point. Boozer was a beast. I think it's a shame how they dog the rest of those early Cleveland teams. Not saying they were loaded, but they were a decent squad.
I feel like the biggest reason people bring up LeBron's 4-6 record is that LeBron fans (I see this often) will act as if Making it TO the finals carries the same weight as winning. Which is absurd.
Exactly what I was about to say. In my experience, the only reason the 4-6 finals record gets brought up in the debate is when lebron fans try saying going to finals 8 times in a row should give him brownie points for being the goat...that's when the ring talk comes into play because all though he made it to finals 10 times, it is really hard to not bring it up and say it is a blemish when mj went 6 for 6 with the most important aspect being mj played with WAY LESS talent compared to lebron and still won more.
@@nicholashackie1407 MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
@@nicholashackie1407 Jordan quit TWICE second was because he knew he can't win without phill Jackson and Scottie Pippen. Goat dont QUIT and than go to the wizards and CHOKE.
SPOT ON! When people say Jordan can't pass or rebound and only scored. Amateurs. First he averaged about 6 and 6, but if they go back and watch games he's no look passing at half court. I've seen him do it twice in the same game. It's people that didn't watch him play and don't today like a few of us still do.
Jonny, random comment, but cant tell you how much i love the intro... it's so simple, but it warms my heart everytime i see Kobe crossing the ball 'tween his legs, reading the defender's movements. Miss the Bean 💔
Also on LeBron's Finals record, look at his last 3 losses with the Cavs. One was when his 2nd and 3rd options went down (something no player in history could overcome), and then a 73 win team had to go out and recruit a top 3 player in order to beat him. To compare this to MJ, it would be like him losing Pippen and Rodman/Grant (depending on the run), in which case he'd lose the Finals. And it would be like MJ beating the Sonics in 96 and they respond by going out and signing Shaq in free agency, in which case MJ would have 2 more Ls on his Finals resume.
@@muizmin Exactly, that team would have won 70 games and destroyed everybody in the playoffs. Fact is, MJ never had the hurdles that LeBron had to clear
I presume Bron would also have 2 less chips if he didn’t join Miami with Wade and Bosh. Stupid argument. You have all the energy to talk about other overpowered teams, yet ignore Bron was on one for 4years in a weaker conference. And he still lost 2 of those. And don’t give me Wade’s injury cuz you’ll very likely ignore Pippen’s injuries in the 98 finals as well. If you want to give credit to Bron for losing against a superteam in the final, then 1. Go back and give extra credit to the teams that actually beat Bron’s superteam, and praise those that lost against that heat team. 2. Give extra credit to every team stuck in the same same conference as the Warriors cuz per your argument, they had absolutely no chance of making the finals, and Bron was just lucky he was in a different conference.
I believe George Gervin was a Hall of Fame Bulls player in that Celtics series, I think he retired after MJs 63 pt game, he didn't finish the series. I'm British I could be wrong, I l'm a fan of the Iceman
I recently saw on UA-cam (while it was still up) the 63pt game and another in the series. Iceman got no playing time in the playoffs. He came in somewhere in the 2nd quarter of the 63pt game and didn’t make a shot. Can’t remember him even taking a shot.
Yeah Gervin was there for one year. He'd gone from being a 26ppg + mid-defender a couple yrs earlier , to a 16ppg + non-defender, and he was off to Italy immediately after.
@@shaft9000 "16ppg + non-defender, " He didn't even play in the playoffs. Only reason he got 16ppg regular season is Jordan missed 60 games from injury so iceman played a lot. But by that point his offense was okay and his sub-par defense became a super sub-par. I just looked him up. In the 3 playoff games, he played in 2 games for a total of 11 minutes and took one shot only, missing it
I grew up in Chicago and (was still young at the time) and never knew Gervin was on the Bulls until I saw a video earlier this year. I pretty much knew most of the players on the teams after that so maybe that's a year earlier than I started paying attention because we were all about the Bears winning the Super Bowl (knew most of the players on the Bears team that year too). 🤷🏿♂️
I think in any sports argument things need to be in context. Eras, play styles, rule changes, competition, teammates. It doesnt matter the sport, context is everything.
Put the top 10 most SKILLED HOF players on a list. Put the top 10 most ATHLETIC HOF players on a list. Now add individual and team accomplishments. MJ is the GOAT because of how high he ranks on both of those lists, plus his individual and team accomplishments.
jordan losing in the first round was just a counter-argument to bron's 4-6 record. no one really knocks mj for that cuz like bron he didn't have much help. but the difference is bron can get to the finals with not much help while jordan can't
one that kills me slowly inside is the fact that people always say lebrons legacy was saved by ray allen. if lebron never scored 14 in the 4th there would be no legacy saving shot by ray. and they hold that against bron even till this day
@@jasonmoukala8909 of course it's a team sport ! But LeBron fans praise him for scoring all those points yet he misses the important one to tie the game
@@Sf75178 are u gonna bring up the fact that he put up 37 in the close out game to win the chip lmao he was awesome that series and put his team in a position to win
@@mullymullyt I understand the argument that AI wasn’t a good defender and I agree that he wasn’t an elite on-ball defender, but let’s look a little deeper into that accusation. For one, Iverson’s defense is historically compared to traditional shooting guards which is misleading. We know he wasn’t a true SG, but merely played before position-less basketball. Consider his assists average which is only rivaled by Jerry West and James Harden at the SG position, who are consequently other “point guards” who’ve played the 2. Compared to other players of his *true* position, and taking height and weight into account, no player in NBA history has placed higher in the DPOY race than Iverson (ref. 2003), and there has never been a DPOY winner listed below 6’3. His career defensive rating, while _some_ elements can be influenced by teammates, is identical to Kobe Bryant. But furthermore, most bigs in NBA history, from Wilt to Shaq, aren’t considered great on-ball defenders either, and are only expected to be good post defenders. I say all of this to emphasize that “good defense” is _relative_ to a players position and although Iverson was listed as a SG, his defense cannot fairly be assessed when compared to a 6’4-6’9 WING.
@@mullymullyt Iverson led the league in steals 3 times in his career which was tied for the most ever at the time of his retirement. Only Chris Paul has surpassed that mark since. While he did strategically play the passing lanes, he wasn’t able to cheat or hedge during the 2001 season as there were still “illegal defense” rules at the time. So, it required a higher level of skill to play passing lanes as compared to the lazier, gambling we see today. In 2001, the Sixers were 5th in the league in defensive raring. Of course some will argue this was due to Dikembe Mutombo’s presence on the roster (or Theo Ratliff before the trade), but Iverson’s individual defensive rating was better than everyone on his own roster outside of Mutombo/Ratliff, George Lynch, and Jumaine Jones who all manned the front court. It’s true that some of the factors that go into a player’s defensive rating can be impacted by their teammates or help defense. But consider that Iverson ranked 3rd among shooting guards in the league and would’ve been 2nd if you considered him a PG. But Eric Snow, the Sixers starting PG, wasn’t even in the top 25 and Jason Terry, who played the vast majority of the season with “DPOY” Mutombo in Atlanta, was only 24th among SG’s. So, Iverson couldn’t have merely benefited from help defense as it would have also inflated the defensive rating of other player’s in the Philadelphia backcourt. Aaron McKie was the closest to Iverson, ranking 5th among all SGs in the league.
@@mullymullyt I can’t say he was the best point guard defender ever because Gary Payton was a Point Guard. But if we’re speaking traditionally, 6’3 or below, he is the greatest defender _ever_ at that size. (Bear in mind that, although Chris Paul led the league in steals 6 times, his career average through those 9 seasons was identical to Iverson’s average through 9 seasons). I consider Iverson the better defender because he didn’t have the benefit of playing zone defense for his first 5 seasons and also helped anchor a better defense during his prime, in a stauncher defensive era. So, CP3 would be a near second. Mookie Blaylock also makes a case but I haven’t dug deep into his defensive accolades. I will do my due diligence.
Yeah, that was exacly that roster. If Kobe played that season with some other teammates, he would have one of the greatest seasons in NBA history, but because his teammates were soo bad, he won only 45 games and I think he won half or more games alone that season. Than against Phoenix I was missed when I saw how great he was in game 6, he scored 50 points and destoyed the Phoenix that game, but everyone other was soo lazy to grab the rebound, all of them were soo soft soo they didn't let Kobe to ein that game. After that he had bad game 7, but people forgot about any other game before when he was the main reason why they won their 3 games. And if those teammates weren't soo lazy to grab that last rebound, maybe Kobe would move to the conference finals that year and if he was able to do that WITH THAT TRASH ROSTER, people would look him VERY, VERY different right now.
On an statistical and individual level he is untouchable imo (apart from Wilt maybe). 86-87 he averaged 37ppg on 48% with 3spg and 1.5bpg. 87-88 he averaged 35ppg on 53.5% and with 3spg and 1.6bpg. Then there’s 88-89, where he averaged 32ppg/8rpg/8apg on 54% (24 games of him playing as pg he put up 30ppg/9rpg/10apg). Goat
@@AveChristusRex789 i couldnt agree more. I actually think lebron has a type goat career, kareem, and even others but man, MJ is so impressive in every aspect that is almost impossible to beat him. He has all time stats, all time accolades, all time narrative, everything
@@031nathan MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
@@shaft9000 MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
there is context to the Jordan first round exits before Pippen was ready to help him out. Its mostly to remind people that Jordan lost, like everyone else, before his team was good enough to compete. There is so much mystic around Jordan the Legend that we have to remind people that there was a period where he used to lose vs better teams. It's also to give context to his achievement of winning in every NBA finals he went to. To remind them that he needed Pippen, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman and other good role players like Paxton, Armstrong and Kerr to make it possible. Being coached by Phil Jackson didn't hurt either. Yes, Jordan was the man, but no man can do it alone in the NBA. There are other players who could've had as much success if their team situation was just as good, but that's not always the case. For instance, one area where Jordan can claim a lot of success is the health of himself and his team during those historic 3-peats. Both LeBron and Kobe would undoubtable have had more success in winning titles if they were similarly as fortunate. It's very difficult to win back to back, and especially to 3-peat. Things have a tendency to fall apart first. It's true it's a credit to Jordan's leadership and character that it worked out twice in his case; nevertheless, he was still fortunate that it did. It's not my intent to name a GOAT in this argument. I just want a little bit of demystification in the argument. There are things to consider when we make these arguments. It's my thoughts, that when it comes to situation during career peaks, Jordan had it easy. While his fame was definitely a contributing factor, everything came to him with little forcing. In Bron's case, he had to move. Kobe on the other hand had to wait for the other 2 1/2 players he needed to win. Bron in particular did it the hard way. The NBA is built to be against fabricating championship teams from next to nothing, and in all three situations where he had championship success, it was a race to win before the consequences of spending everything for a contending team came crashing down. The 90s Bulls on the other hand was done the correct way, and being able to make moves for the second round of success after the first is also something historically proven to work after the first round of success succeeded when it was done the correct way the first time. Anyway, Kudos to Kobe for sticking it out for the least effective method of the three to pan out. The critique of Jordan's first round exits is a critique I use, but I don't use it to say he wasn't worthy. I use it to say, let's put things in perspective. Michael Jeffery Jordan was indeed special, but let's get real and not get caught in the fabrication there's more than there actually was, part of his legacy is due to great fortuitous situations shining down on him. The critique is used to show that there is a difference when he had his team behind him and what it was like before that, and when we consider the basketball greats, we show consider this part of the equation, because none of them did it without a great team. Yes you have to have a great player like Russel, like Wilt, like Kareem, like Moses Malone, like Bird, like Magic, like Isaiah, like Jordan, like Hakeem, like Shaq, like Duncan, like Kobe, like LeBron, like Kawhi and like Curry. Yes, you have to have that sort of player, there is no argument here, but what if Hakeem had had Pippen and Rodman instead of Jordan in 96-98? Just saying. This argument that Jordan was the ultimate gatekeeper needs to go away. Jordan was tier SS among the greatest; however, I do think some of his solitary feats could've been matched if other players at the same time had his situation instead. You have to have the first part, the player for sure, but you have to have the team, the second part also.
As much as a player can “carry” a team they can only do so much because basketball is a team game and every single one of these critiques shows you the limits of what one player can do
Bro the fact that people are even looking at rookie seasons and discrediting these players is crazy. I haven’t watched the full video yet, so idk what you’re gonna say about Kobe, but the reason MJ lost in the first round is the same reason Lebron lost in the finals. He played fantastic in the series, but played against some all-time great teams. Pistons and Celtics in the first round for MJ. Warriors and the Spurs for Lebron. This is coming from a Lebron fan, btw.
Those same fans that say Jordan didn’t win in the 80’s are the same ones that ignore LeBron didn’t win in the 2000’s. Jordan didn’t win until the 90’s and LeBron didn’t win until the 2010’s.
I don't think it really hurts Kobe, but any time you're up 3-1 and fail to close the series out, thats a legit gripe. Kobe clearly tried, but Lakers should have been able to win.
Lakers team had no business being up 3-1 and Kobe scored 50 pts in game 6 they lost it because T Thomas hit a buzzer 3pt send it to OT they were that close
@@davis2k1234 the real problem with game 6 I think Phil Jackson Phil Kobe was going outside of the plane which almost worked but ultimately didn't. They didn't build a 3-1 lead off Kobe going off every game but actually by slowing the game down and exploiting their mismatches down low. I'm guessing Kobe didn't take criticism well which resulted in his game 7 performance
@@str8duval Kobe didn’t take the criticism well who would he carried a G League team all season by himself and in a game 7 after dropping 50Pts and losing in OT your own coach and media blame you for the loss because people are saying to get one the worst players in the NBA would literally could barely even catch a basketball thrown at him K Brown and company more shots it was joke bad coaching and the typical media hating on Kobe as always
You really gotta get into game 7! So many nuances to that game it’s crazy. I remember it like yesterday, I was so confused to what was happening. But then we learned later on everything that went on in the locker room and that sideline, it makes sense.
Phil Jackson threw Kobe under the bus as did the media saying if he passed more to K Brown Smush and L Walton C Minm the team would play better so he showed them what would happen with that game plan blame Phil not Kobe for that game 7 loss
I only hear people bring up Bron being 4-6 when comparing him to MJ. Everybody knows that 10 finals appearances is great, just not better than 6 finals championship including two 3-peats.
MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
MJ fans dont know # MJ never won without Scottie and phill Jackson. # choked a 2-1 lead against PISTON # was a LOSER below 500 BEFORE tgey drafted Scottie PIPPEN. #been swept twice #NEVER BEAT LARRY BIRD IN HIS PRIME #beat the WEAKEST COMPETITION aka expansion league. #never beat the best competition in the finals like (GSW,SPURS). #got a first round pick,STILL CHOKED WITH THE WIZARDS.
@@coreythomas3633 it’s you again 🤦♂️. Russell played in a league with only 10 teams and had a quarter of the league’s best talent on his own team with guys like KC Jones, Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, etc. Then he only had to play 10-12 playoff games while MJ had to play upwards of 20 to win his rings. Horry and Havlicek never led his team to a ring so they can go too MJ’s 6 rings > Bill’s 11, Havlicek’s 8 and Horry’s 7 any day Corey 😂😂😂 No point in addressing your other clown takes it’s clear you ain’t watch the video
@@coreythomas3633 buddy u have no idea what you're talking about, you expect a rookie mj to beat the celtics dynasty led by larry in the first round twice in a row without pippen? Sure as hell you're not delusional enough to think lbj will beat them if he met larry in the first round right....? And PISTON that you were talking about were the BAD BOYS PISTONS, the team who played such physical defense that cooked the showtime. Bron fans like you seem to not understand context
MJ 1-9 without Scottie Pippen try again. He QUIT because he couldn't play with his team anymore cane back and was TRASH with the wizards. 4 6 is not put into to conext. Because lebron faced better competition in the finals. MJ never beat dynasty gsw or spurs. Stop the stupidity
MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
I understand the 4-6 argument about LeBron and somewhat agree with your statement Jonny. Although there's also a small problem with that. LeBron is pretty much the only top 10 player of all time who is given praises with reaching the finals. Reaching the finals is not a trophy. If one reaches the finals and loses it's still just another loss. The only thing that makes it a bit more meaningful is that it happens on the biggest stage but in the end it's still only a loss. For some reason LeBron fans are pretty much the only ones who count 'reaching the finals' as an accolade. People who consider Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Wilt, Bird or whoever to be their GOAT pretty much never count 'he made the finals this and that many times'. When it comes to other candidates people count the rings while with LeBron they also want to count finals appearances. That's having two standards and an argument like that does not work with me.
@@cumbusta9175 No it is not. A loss is a loss and 6 is more than 4. The ultimate goal in the playoffs is to win the championship and only those winner are remembered and really make into the history books. Winning is winning and it matters very little at which point one loses. In the end there's only one team that wins and the other 15 teams that make the playoffs are losers. Some of them lose earlier than others but 15 of 16 still lose and losing should not be an accolade. And as Jonny nicely brought up in the video the opponents MJ lost against in the 1st round were loaded. There probably weren't too many people expecting Bulls to win against them anyway. It's also a completely another topic and argument to look at and go through the competition and opponents LeBron had to face when he made it to the finals through East. When MJ was playing the East was the more deep conference and when LeBron played with the Cavs and Heat East was quite weak and the West was the much more loaded one.
@@Zamppa86 you just contradicted yourself, you told me a loss is a loss yet you being up the reason why jordan lost in the first rounds was because he went against stacked teams. Who care if he went against stacked teams a los is a loss correct???
@@cumbusta9175 Loss is a Loss as I said. I just wanted to point out what the context of MJ losing was. Not an excuse but just an explanation. In the end the championship matters. Every other team loses at some point.
I definitely think Kobe quit and it was to spite the media so that doesn’t take away from the failure. If anything, isn’t it worse to give up on your team just because the media called you out? Imo that was part of Kobe’s evolution into 08, less care about negative backlash for shooting games (see 2010 finals)
didnt kobe himself admit that he quit on the team? barkley called him out on it and kobe said "yeah i fucked up." i mean thats not how the conversation went verbatim (i think) but it's similar.
@@fortynights1513 That would have been hilarious. Heck would the Clippers even have had a true "home" game? Seems even when they changed the colors for their home games, the crowd would probably have been mostly purple and gold.
@@sabishiihito Clippers may not have had a true home game in that hypothetical series, but they were probably better that year. After all, they took the Phoenix team the Lakers lost to to seven games. Either one loses to Dallas in the conference finals either way though.
Wasn’t just the media Phil Jackson ripped him saying he needs to pass to K brown smush l Walton c Minm more it was pure non sense blame Phil not Kobe he just did what his coach wanted him to do get Kwami brown involved more 🤷♂️
Id love the reversal for this video a look at underrated greatness would be the title where an established legend overlooked now gets a highlight of their most well known moments for example tim Duncan's 03 playoff run David Robinson 70 point game or Scottie pippen lone season without jordan where he finished top 5 in mvp voting🎉
Do these people imply that Scottie was in his prime immediately? Side note: Because it’s a first round series, and he accomplished what he did, I think MJ’s 1988 first round is underrated. He scored the second most points per game in a playoff series on 56% from the field, and I don’t see too many people bring it up.
In all honesty they probably just don't know how stacked the East was during that time. Even though the Bucks never won a championship during Moncrief's time they still had the 3rd most wins in the East through the 80s for example... And the Celtics were the Celtics. Almost everyone atleast should know how loaded their team was and prime Bird alone was a top 5 player of all time...
4-6 just shows you that he had had an unfair advantage in the East and couldn’t hold his own in the Finals. He got swept in two of those 6 losses and 5 in* another 2. That is pathetic. In his Cleveland career, he won a total of 2 Finals games without Kyrie Irving and 0 outside of the Kyrie-ERA.
I lost respect for LeBron when he started coasting during the regular season with his 2nd Cleveland stint because he knew he'd make the finals. (I.e. playoff mode)
10 Finals.....how many future Hall Of Famers were apart of Lebron Run. How many current HOFs played in that run. But he 4-6. He has so much talent surrounding him from 2010- present
Yeah that's the big reason why he gets criticized for being 4-6 in the Finals. Even his critics expected him to be nearly 10-0 in the Finals with all the superteams, team-hopping, and LeGM trades he's done, with the exception of injuries.
He’s played with 3 different teams of course he’s gonna have more players he played with on his resume you smelly goblin😂and unlike Jordan he actually faced dynasties and half of his finals losses came against odds he had no chance at winning. As usual bron haters have brain cancer when it comes to context
@Kyle Mathieu False. Kobe played with a way more talented teams then Jordan. Stop trying to lump them together. He also won more because he didn't have to be the best player on this team for 3 of them
The willful ignorance and lack of objectivity/rationality in this so called ‘information age’ is depressing. Not just in the NBA GOAT debate but in all facets of life it seems like.
Individuals are only inclined to think objectively when they know that others are _depending_ on them to attempt to do so. The sooner you can accept this, the better you'll feel about people being totally subjective as _basketball fans._
4 of 10 is impressive, no doubt. Some players don't get to the finals one time. But for the goat debate, how the greats won and lost on the highest level has to be considered. It's in the finals where the greats become legends and they decide how high they rise on all time rankings. Why should the NBA want a goat that while he got to the finals 10 times, he lost 6, got swept in 2 of those and choked in 2 of them? As opposed to a player that won 6 of 6, never choked or got swept in the finals or even allowed a game 7? I'm not just criticizing James. It's about the comparison of the two finals records for the goat debate.
Why should the nba want a goat that couldnt get past the second round until he got hall of famers around him? Your argument would make sense if there was some kinda perfect player. But there isnt any player In nba history that doesnt have some kind of postseason failures holding there legacy back
@Uhhh Cheese I'll say it a different way. No player gets to the finals each year. Those that never win have no claim at all to the goat debate. Because the bar is raised so much higher in the finals. That's why the only ones you hear mentioned are those with multiple championships. Their legacies are forged in the finals. Mj does not have the failures in the finals that LeBron, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Curry have. With that on top of all his achievements and accolades, how does it not make sense for him to be considered the GOAT of the sport?
@@uhhh_cheese So you still on that first round loss thing? Losing to the Boston super team in the first round is nowhere near the same as getting swept twice and choking in the finals.
In 2019, a players poll went 73 percent for Jordan and 12 percent for Lebron. And 59% to 33% in 2023. Lebron could be called the biggest loser. He has as a losing record of 22-33 in finals games. In 11 healthy seasons in Cleveland, Lebron won only 1 championship. In 11 healthy seasons in Chicago, Jordan won 6. He still trails Jordan by a monumental difference to make up: 2 championships. 2 Finals MVPs, 1 DFPY, 1 MVP, 4X all defense, 9X PPG and 3X steals. In the Jxmy Highroller youtube video "Asking Over 100 NBA Players Who the GOAT is, 80 picked Jordan and 30 picked Lebron. In the video "23 teammates of Lebron and Jordan pick the GOAT", 18 of 23 picked Jordan. Most stars asked don’t put Lebron in their team of 5 to win a championship. So how can he be in the same tier as Jordan? In Johnny Arnett's video of the greatest players of all time by their best peak, Lebron comes in at seventh. Jordan never choked, was a much better defender, perhaps best in the league, a better free point thrower, actually had a mid-range shot, and played in a more difficult era. Jordan had the greatest vertical leap of all time and the biggest hands of any top 5 player. Lebron is also not clutch going 0-7 in the last 10 seconds of finals games while Jordan is 4 of 8. Jordan also blows him away in the final 24 seconds. LeBron isn’t even better than Kobe. Lebron was swept by Spurs team 07. Kobe beat them in ‘08 4-1. Lebron lost to Magic in ‘09 ECF 4-2. Kobe beat them 4-1. Lebron lost to the Celtics in ‘10 ECSF 4-2. Kobe beat the same team in 2010 4-3. Above all else, Lebron doesn’t pass the eye test. Only Jordan, Kobe, and Dr. J do this in magical form. So who cares about statistics if no one wants to watch you play. I wouldn’t pay to watch Lebron or Kareem play unless I want to eat and sleep in their arena. Highroller is mad to put Lebron in the same tier as Jordan. As insane as the 5 teamates out of 23 who would rather play (lose) with Lebron.
Sorry but I'll never look at a 4 and 6 record in the finals as anything but a failure especially because he had a super duper team for 4 of them but underachieved. I'll give you 2007 and 2015 for sure.
That’s the Same Argument as People Who only like Jordan because other people like him, majority of kids today Never Watched Jordan Play, Yet Say he is the goat, I’m not hating I’m just saying I’m tired of people only believing the media
MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
@@coreythomas3633 cause read my comment Nd don’t being oblivious like a female, Nd bill Russell Nd havelick played nobody wit like 9 team den added 13 wit only 2 rounds, Nd Big shot I fw big shot buh he was never da man on nun of dat those teams, knockdown big shots dats wat your role players do like Steve Kerr Nd Ray Allen right? Once mike started winning shun at lose nomore after dat, wit 2 3peats nigga dats mad hard to do u not seeing anuva 2 3peats ever let alone one, Nd never went to game 7 Nd all of these niggaz playen they heart out ina game 7, it’s a done deal already ya jus mad mike did it first Nd rightfully so FOH if shoe was on other foot ya would have a field day
For LeBron, i think the bigger criticism is longevity and how he naturally acrues records because of it. Does he lead all-time in scoring because he's a great scorer, or because he's had so many games to score in?
Plus, LeBron fans often talk like he invented the modern medicine and nutritional science that allowed him to stay as healthy and competitive for as long as he has.
LeBron is 10th all time in games played behind some other great scorers like Kareem, Karl Malone, and Dirk Nowitzki. LeBron is also 6th overall in career points per game. LeBron is definitely a great scorer.
Well you have to be a great score to to be the all-time leading scorer. You just don't become the leading scorer just by simply staying in the league longer. You actually have to be good enough stay on the floor long enough to get those buckets
Wow this comment is kinda brain numb. Lebron has played less games than many people he scored more points than. It's not just "oh he played a long time" no bro he's a great scorer. You can't just stumble into 38K points 😭
This comment is late to the game, and there are literally thousands of comments ahead of it...BUT, what this video does a great job in trying to help dispel is this zero-sum game nonsense that has infected sports talk, and many other aspects of culture. If someone disagrees with you, then they are automatically stupid, against you, etc. Thank you, once again, for bringing objectivity to sports talk, and also for reminding people yet again, that if someone disagrees with you, it doesn't invalidate your entire existence.
3:35 the 4-6 argument does not mean take away his legendary performance in game 7. If he would have played the same but lose, we would still praise him for carrying them that far. A final record of 4-5 with potential to be 5-5 in the finals looks better than 4-6. 2011 still happens and he still makes 8 straight finals with a 3-1 comeback
The LeBron 4-6 critique should only really sting if you don't want to admit the East was weak for a stretch of his career. If it wasn't weak and he beat good teams then his Finals record is an underachievement.
So glad you brought up the 4-6 bs. That argument drives me insane and you see it all over. As if making the finals ten times isn't an accomplishment. MJ has more rings but lebron has had more overall playoff success for a longer period of time. I don't think either of them have a huge edge as far as overall playoff performance goes for the length of their careers. MJ had a better peak, lebron has sustained overall success.
Kobe game 6 06 against phoenix is one of his very best games. His shot making in that game is insane, i urge everyone to go watch the highlights for that game
The 4-6 argument is legit. If you’re good enough to make the Finals, you should be good enough to win. Jerry West doesn’t get credit for making 9 finals. Kobe doesn’t get credit for 7 finals trips. It’s not enough to get there. You have to win. That’s not a knock on LeBron as a player, but a legitimate knock when you’re talking about GREATEST OF ALL TIME. Of course he gets credit, that’s why he’s on the Mount Rushmore. ** oh, and just for the record, I actually DO hold Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against him. But that’s one season. We’re talking about a career.
The critique for Lebron, at least from me, is that he is given praise for making it to the final 10 times but not the criticism for losing those finals. You have to acknowledge that it is he AND his team that won/failed. Nobody deserves the flowers without the thorns.
I honestly think Lebron's finals appearances is overrated. When you break down just how massive the talent disparity was between the east & west, it's no longer impressive. The fact that he was beaten so thoroughly in the Finals so often is just a reflection of the fact that his teams/competition in the East were never that good to begin with.
@@donela6730his competition in the east didn’t seem like it was tuff, cause lebron was constantly blowing threw them, now obviously the talent was better in the west but the east seemed so weak cause lebron owned the east.
@@pigs6486 I think Jordan wins in 2011 but not for the other years due to things beyond his control imo. As for LeBron if he plays like he did in 2016 then yes he has a chance of winning 6/6 given the competition was more evenly matched. But I don't see how MJ wins in 2017/2014 forget about 2018 and 2007. But 2011 I feel MJ would've won.
@@pigs6486 I have Jordan at 1 and Lebron at 2 but I'm sorry there is absolutely 0 chance that Jordan is winning against 2007 spurs or 2018 Warriors with those raggedy ass Cavs teams. I'll give you 2011 and maybe 2014 (that's a stretch).
What is a Basketball critique that you can’t stand??
So close to 150k! Thank you all so much! Can’t wait to bring you guys the 150 Questions video :)
I thought that your GOAT was Wilt? Or maybe I’m misremembering some of your older videos
Downplaying championships because of an "easy rout" or injuries etc. Yes, not every run is equal, but a ring is a ring. You could put an asterisk on every years winner if you wanted.
@@TheDarkbluerock people still try to downplay warriors championships because of “luck” it’s funny they say this but the players that lost weren’t saying they was lucky or the ones that won but the fans try to kind of speak for them and always wanna put and asterisk on something because maybe there favorite team
Loss and are really just sore losers
That LeBron and many younger players today are weak because they play in a less physical era compared to older fans' eras because by that logic the players of their eras would be considered weak to even older more physical eras as well.
An athlete should not be critiqued/diminished from rules they have to follow in their sport whether you like the rules or not.
The 4-6 thing is more about his total record. When people talk about his failures the series vs the Spurs are never mentioned, because we understand that he had a weak team.
We don't critique his first loss despite being swept because we understand the context of it.
I think it has to deal with that the NBA is VERY INDIVIDUALIZED to the point where people disregard teams and just expect a player to do everything to win a game
Fr, it's so important to look at these guys and their achievements/shortcomings in context
Exactly, but the media uses that as a regular argument so people go with that.
couldn’t have said it better, and the marketing in the 80s have a lot to do with how majority of the fans perceive the game. its never a consistent criteria for all players.
It's because Jordan was so commercialized they hid a whole super team around his offensive output.
@@jamaalsjourney That's gotta be one of the dumbest things Ive ever heard. That bulls team without Jordan isn't even in the 90th percentile of championship contenders. And that team wasn't even a top 10 offence in the league it WAS IN at the time without Jordan. Great players, dynasty, phenomenal team play, sure but a superteam? Literally the furthest from it
One that hurts me is hearing people saying that Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Jerry West etc. were trash because that played against plumbers
Wel I mean they kinda did, on top of the fact there was only like 8 teams in the league,
Calling them plumbers would be an exaggeration, but the fact is that the average player then was way worse than the average player is now.
@@cumbusta9175 But you just contradicted yourself. Far fewer teams means the talent isn't as spread out. So even if there were fewer number of quality players in the US, having far fewer teams means the talent there is was concentrated.
@@mitoski7427 based on what metric outside of opinion?
@@mitoski7427 It was not 'way worse'. They had far fewer teams at 8 which concentrated the pool. It certainly was worse but not 'way worse'. Even the folks at Thinking Basketball have talked about how lots of the stats with adjustment to league averages become problematic in the 60's because fewer teams means more concentrated talent which means it's harder to perform the equal distant to the league average compared to when there are 30 teams. And if you look at their games and consider the rules and enforcement of rules of that era, there is no reason to think Wilt would not be just as good as shaq if Wilt played in a later era and no reason to think West wouldn't be a top 5 player during any era he played. Bill Russel size and athleticism remind me of Alonzo Morning but with more defensive awareness.
I'm okay with casual fans to have those takes. The problem is that so-called "sports analysts" like Nick Wright and Skip Bayless are the ones who perpetuate those takes for clicks, which make fans think those are valid opinions.
Exactly. You can't expect every casual fan to have a deep understanding of the game, but it's *criminal* when the paid analysts are perpetuating this bullshit.
EXACTLY those are the ppl who control the narratives and they create awful ones
Literally haven’t ever read anything more truthful than this lol
Very very true.
@@jimcarrey6928 make a new movie
"He's overrated, he got great team"
"He's trash, he lacks accolades"
Me: 🤨
people just hating
I just tune it out now. A bunch of hypocrites and biased “fans”.
@@Marzchaixthey’re meatriding
8:26 This right there should be the textbook rebuttal to the "1-9 without Pippen" narrative. A 30 second basketball reference search will tell you that MJ, in his first playoff series win, averaged more points than his next 5 best teammates COMBINED, the Cavs would have swept them if it weren't for MJ. He carried them again the next season all the way to the conference finals, once again averaging 40 points and hitting "the shot" against the cavs and was the only team to take any games off the Pistons that year. I actually am amazed that this narrative, being so stupid, is able to persist for so long when an easy search could have debunked it completely
A critique that drives me insane is comparing shooting percentages and numbers of threes from greats with modern players because of the way offenses and defenses were different, as well as the rules.
and the coaching, and the officiating, and what and when they bothered to practice.
There's a video by a youtuber that calls Larry Bird and Overrated shooter comparing his 3 point percentage to 3 point shooters in the modern era ignoring context
like Larry Bird didn't grow up with the 3 point line and it was a newly introduced rule in his rookie career
He made the 50 40 90 club TWICE, he shot over 40% at the 3 point range 4 years in a row that without growing up and chucking 3's like modern NBA players who have practiced and perfected it since they were teens
Good point... That bothers me too
@@roboninja3194 I never thought about comparing the era's of the referees... That's deep man, you're really thinking 😁🍻
shooting % in general is a fawed stat. imo they shouldn't count dunks, layups or put backs (especially put backs) as shots. at least separate these from distance shooting stats. Deandre jordan is not one of the best shooters ever, but in terms of shooting % he's #1 or soething lmao.
I think reaching the finals with the 2007 and 2018 Cavs teams were some of the most impressive feats of his career.
Agreed, I would go as far as to say that only a handful of players in NBA history could have done what LeBron did those two years.
Of course like most fans, they have no idea about the 2007 finals. Look up the score of each game which all were close. And look up Lebrons performance in each of those games. It will become obvious very quickly that those so called "bums" on Cleveland kept them in every game and one guy was the cause for the losses, but nobody brings it up
I think 2018 was a great run because his stats were off the charts but didn’t really beat any good teams on his way to Finals especially in 2007 plus he played terrible vs Spurs which everyone leaves that part out including this video the East was historically bad in 07 the Cavs would have been the 6th seed with 50 wins and played the 3rd seed Spurs in the 1st rd and been swept then if he played in the west he basically beat 1 good team in Pistons and that was after B Wallace had left
@@davis2k1234 yes nobody brings up him wetting the bed in 2007 finals.
@@nneely613 exactly
I’m a Jordan fan but I got a lot of love for Kobe and Bron. I don’t see why we just can’t have our own GOATs and live in peace. All 3 were different players in different eras, let’s live in peace
That’s what I’m saying. Growing up, I was always a Kobe fan. Now that I’m a bit older and learn more and more about the game, I grow an appreciation for many legends that have come and go. I don’t know why so many “fans” feel the need they only have to respect or ride for one player while diminishing every other player that is seen as “The G.O.A.T”.
I still have faith that when Bron retires, people will wake up and appreciate his career like how we appreciate the careers of Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan.🫱🏽🫲🏼
This was the comment I was looking for. Almost went and typed it myself
If not for fabricated arguments, and click bait debates .. and trash hot take culture
%70 of the media people consumed wouldn't exist.
As much as I hate it, the goat debate is worth millions. And its worth a Billion to Nike who have 3 of the major goat debate participants signed.
Yes but when you break down the deep metric analytics and the eye test, there is one player that is far superior than the other 2 🤷♂️.... he retired 20 years ago.
I think the problem is for serious fans, there isn't much of an argument that LeBron was better than Jordan and also not a much of an argument Kobe was better than LeBron. Ultimately doesn't matter but just shows some bad takes when I see many of these discussions.
I always got mad when people were discrediting Jokic's 2nd MVP. The argument was about his seeding in the West, which was below Embiid's Sixers. In reality, they had almost the same record, but Jokic was playing with a subpar company.
P.S: Jonny Top 3 NBA youtuber. Nothing but facts and great takes.
a 5 win difference is not almost the same
@@tridra5714 Denver had 48 wins. Philly 51. Which standings were you looking?
@@tridra5714 3…not 5
Should have been Giannis anyway
Actually Jokic had the best all around stats and advanced stats
You and the guys at Synthetic Sports have gotten me back into basketball… So much so that I’m contemplating joining a local rec league! Tysm for your content.
Hell yeah! Get in that league. The best part of basketball is playing it, and it ain’t even close
Synthetic splooge
Synthetic sports is a nice channel
This just might be the single most important basketball video upload in today's over-analyzed, hyper-critical social media coverage of today's NBA and its players, both past and present.
In the words of Rusty Buckets in the last minute of his Goatmentary:
“Appreciate Greatness. You can think MJ is the GOAT without tearing down LeBron and vice versa.”
@@fortynights1513 LeBron has had possibly the greatest career, indeed.
However shining a light on what is overlooked is not tearing down, btw. It's more like clarity.
Trouble with LeBron is that he is still nowhere near the BEST player ever, with only a single b2b. The surest measure of league dominance is b2b titles. You can't just get thrown off the hill the next year after you've won one and be called "the best ever". And no goat goes under .500 in title games, not in any sport. Playing with more all-stars than anyone for longer than almost anyone, he should have won more than anyone short of Bill Russell (8-team league).
Another thing - for his career LBJ was always coddled (rule and refereeing changes to his favor, media excuses, the self-boasting klanks and on and on). _What makes one great is what they had to overcome and how they did it while STAYING on top._
It is what it is.
@@shaft9000 as another commenter in here said, championships shouldn't be such a large part of a person's invididual greatness as they are literally the most team based award of the entire game
@shaft9000 lebron wasn't coddled. No one has gotten critiques to the same level he does. I feel like you didn't watch the video and you are just proving that logic will never prevail in the goat debate and greatness will never be appreciated the way it should be
@Jeff Jeff if you Wana tear down lebron you have to bring yo championship. It's all they got. You make a great point but people will just use what fits their narrative
Man you're the best NBA commentary channel.. You deserve waaaaaaay more subs.. Quality content
Context/ education is everything. Thanks
As with everything in life, context is everything. Thanks for highlighting this fact and exposing, yet again, the lazy talking heads and their dumb narratives. These people are old enough to have watched these games but clearly, didn't or refuse to acknowledge the truth.
Well done.
Yes, too much ignored context in the case of Basketball discussion. Appreciate ya, Darrell, and thanks so much for the gift!! Means a lot :)
This upload consistency is insane! Love the content
1:12 I’ve definitely used his finals record in arguments, Lebron making the finals in 2007 is crazy it’s only his 3rd season and he’s already made the finals
I mean, a lot of people watching this video have. Just to be clear, my point isn’t to shame people, im just trying to point out why I don’t think they’re valid arguments.
4th season. The 07-Cavs supporting cast gave LeBron the same offensive production as the 91-Bulls gave Jordan, they also had the number one defense in the Playoffs. Far better team than they are given credit for
@@sideshowbobsaget8876 big mistake by comparing teams that are decades apart. Believe was Far different in 1998 then it was in 2007. The Cavs had the 18th rated offense and the league. The Bulls had the first rated offense most of there Championship runs.
It’s always a great day when Jonny uploads!!!
Jabbar is the actually the GOAT. With 3 NCAA titles, 3 Naismith awards, 6 NBA MVP's and 6 NBA titles. No one else on this list has has a career that in any way compares to this guys resume. PERIOD!
Best sports person bro I swear. nun bias opinions and straight facts !
I don't understand how anyone could critique Jordan. The only critique I could think of is he would've won more and peaked longer if he didn't retire the first time and wasn't a cigar smoking golf gambling maniac lol
I think Johnny was referring to me with my copy and paste, but I'll say it again
Michael Jordan played five seasons without Scottie Pippen
84-85 38-44..First round exit
85-86. 30-52..First round exit
86-87. 40-42...First round exit
01-02. 37-45..out of playoffs
02-03. 37-45..out of playoffs
LeBron james carried an absolutely horrific 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers team to the nba finals
In the modern NBA era (post 1960) only eight NBA top 75 players have won a championship without another top 75 player as a teammate
Rick Barry (1975)
Hakeem Olajuwon (1994)
Tim Duncan (2005) (2007)
Kobe Bryant (2009) (2010)
Steph Curry (2015) (2022)
LeBron james (2016)
Kawhi Leonard (2019)
Giannis Antetokounmpo (2021)
As you can see, LeBron James is on the list and Michael Jordan isnt
Lebron james has won 17 playoff series, without an nba top 75 teammate. Michael Jordan won ZERO
In the year before Michael Jordan and LeBron James joined their team and the year after they left their team, their records were
83-84 bulls 27-55
84-85 bulls. 38-44
92-93 bulls 57-25
93-94 bulls 55-27
98-99 bulls 13-37 without Scottie Pippen
00-01 wizards 19-63
01-02 wizards. 37-45
02-03 wizards 37-45
03-04 wizards 25-57
02-03 cavaliers 17-65
03-04 cavaliers 35-47
09-10 cavaliers 61-21
10-11 cavaliers 19-63
09-10 heat. 47-35
10-11 heat 58-24
14-15 heat 37-45
2013-14 cavaliers 33-49
2014-15 cavaliers 53-29
2017- 18 cavaliers 50-32
2018-19 cavaliers 19-63
2017-18 lakers. 35-47
2018-19 lakers were 20-14 when LeBron James got injured on Christmas day.
As you can see When LeBron James joins a team, the team improves more than Michael Jordan and when LeBron James leaves a team, the team always goes into the tank.
Michael Jordan, excluding the 94-97 seasons, when the NBA moved the three point line to 22 feet, was a career 28% three point shooter. LeBron James is a career 34% three point shooter
Michael Jordan was a great defensive player, in an Era where you could handcheck. Playing defense is much easier when you can handcheck. For nearly 6'9 250 LeBron James' entire career he wasn't afforded the opportunity to handcheck.
THE EVIDENCE IS CLEAR..LEBRON JAMES IS THE GOAT!!!!!
Ppl who think Jordan is not the GOAT will find any tiny reason to diminish his greatness in favor of their favorite players. I’ve always felt the critiques of Jordan are never applied to other players (I.e. needing teammates, struggling early on in his career versus all time superteams). To Jordan detractors, they act like the only way Jordan could be the GOAT is if he won a championship, MVP, FMVP, DPOY, while averaging a triple double in all 15 years that he played. Nevertheless, all GOAT candidates are held to a high standard, and some absurd criticisms do exist for other greats. Jordan is my GOAT though.
@@vicepresidentmikepence889 GET EM!!!! 🔥
@@vicepresidentmikepence889 I can’t believe I would ever agree with a governmental entity.
@@vicepresidentmikepence889and LeBron faced far better teams in Finals, compared to the teams that Jordan faced.
What drives me crazy is the extreme emphasis some fans/members of the media place on championships. Using championships, a team award, as the primary measure of individual greatness is madness and ignores a whole bunch of details and nuances that get lost to history. Chips are a part of the puzzle, but they aren't everything.
Edit: For those who disagree with me, here is an example. I just watched an interview between JJ Redick and Tim Legler. I'm paraphrasing here, but Tim said that if in 2016 Draymond doesn't punch LeBron in the privates, then Warriors went on to win the championship (presumably because Dray's suspension might have affected the outcome of the finals), and everything else plays out the same in the years to come, then Curry is probably a top 5 player all-time. How does that make sense??? Curry didn't throw a punch at LeBron. Dray did. But because Curry doesn't have another ring for that, we're going to penalize him??? Madness I say.
The whole point of the game is to be a champion, literally, otherwise why play? why create playoff games? Etc. So it stands to reason that a major factor in deciding how great a player was is the number of chips he has, because only great teams win championships, and great teams always have great players.
@@travis5732 regardless you can be the best player in the world and with a shitty team you’ll just come up short. It’s the front offices job to build a hood tram around their star. How te is that up to the star? He can’t control what teammates he gets if he’s on a contract😂
@@travis5732 But great players don’t always have great teams, and you need a great team to win championships. Especially when making a great team is out of the hands of the players most of the time, it’s ridiculous to hold a championship as the end all be all for determining how great a player is.
@@travis5732 I fully disagree and will use an absurd hypothetical to make my point. Let's say the number 1 draft pick goes to a team that won 7 games the previous season. That team made absolutely 0 adjustments to the team/ the coaches, or the front office. They go on to win 75 games that year while the number 1 pick wins rookie of the year, dpoy, mvp and the scoring title while averaging 35-15-10 with 10 stocks a game. No one else on the team gets a single accolade. They get to the post season and go 15-0, then in the 16th game, they're up 25 going into the 4th quarter when the number 1 pick has a paul George-esque leg break. They then lose the game and series in devastating fashion. Should that number 1 not be seen as an all time great because he didn't win a chip?
@@michaelbietsch2864 He will be seen as a great player, but not an all time great. Instead he will become moreso a ‘What if’ because he wasn’t able to win it all
Don’t forget about when MJ finally got past the Piston’s in a sweep bc “they got old,” not bc MJ avg 30ppg on 54% from the field, 7apg, and 5rpg. It was bc Joe Dumar was 27, but it had already been 2yrs since he was the finals MVP, and Isiah Thomas, who won the finals MVP the year before was already 29 and so was Rodman who was coming off back-2-back DPoYs but those were in ‘89 and ‘90 so, kinda washed up by then. So the 3 HoFers and the core of their team was all under 30 but to be fair, their center was 35! and Bill Laimbeer was 33! (Younger than MJ the year he won MVP, All Star MVP, Finals MVP, scoring champ, 1st team all-D, but still, pretty old!)….I just saw a UA-cam video from a year ago where Nick Wright actually said “Jordan lost in the first round 3 times, Lebron lost in the first round as many times as you or I who didn’t even play in the league. And only beat the Piston’s when they got old. All those things I just said are facts!” I truly have never watched a sports talking head that I wanted to physically harm like when I watch his stupid ugly rat face arrogantly spout bullshit that he makes a point to reiterate are FACTS. Bc Lebron didn’t make the playoffs his first year, so technically counts. and bc the only 2 out of 5 players on the ‘91 Pistons who aren’t in the HoF we’re in their 30s
Kobe has never been considered the 🐐. No one has ever said that Kobe was better than Jordan so he isn't even in the conversation.
Wilt & Bill played against a bunch of 5 foot 2 inch white guys. A simple google search tells anyone the average height was within a half inch of being the same today as it was 60 years ago. Also that in the last couple generations this magical evolution happened that made the athletes we see today. The players in the 60’s were still world class athletes, yet everyone acts like they were the equivalent of their middle school gym coach.
Thank you mr. arnett.... Your work is just beyond amazing.... As usual... Keep it up.. Please... :)
another kobe criticism is he got "carried" by shaq during the 3peat
For sure. I addressed that one in a video a couple months ago.
In short, Kobe was LEAD by Shaq. "Carried" is waaay too strong of a word based on Kobe's crucial impact
@@jonnyarnett Kobe to Shaq in the best Kobe performance was like Lebron To AD this year. Its clearly AD's team and they don't win if AD isn't a mega star but Lebron is is a huge part of the team nonetheless.
@@Homer-OJ-Simpson lol. It's not the same comparison. Lebron and AD are much closer in impact to eachother in 2023 than Kobe was in any of the Lakers championship playoff runs.
1 vs 5 hof is too much already, hats off
The six losses shows just how many other good players ate on his watch. So it is actually a great topic to bring up while debating the goat.
This video is so well made !! Great research, great analysis!! This is time well invested if you want to understand basketball history. Thx for uploading!!
Great video. We need that game 7 Kobe video too bro. God bless.
Great video as always, Jonny! I would love to see you do a counterpart to this one: "3 Praises that Drive Me INSANE! Things people tout a player for that you feel are ridiculous, misleading or are just making a mountain out of a mole hill.
I'm a huge Bron fan, but i appreciate Bean and MJ's game.
Both suck compared to my glorious king lebron
A man of culture
"LeBron isn't clutch" or "Until LeBron won in 2012, he wasnt clutch". Is one that always puts question marks over my head.
The man had 2 game winners in his first playoff series, two more game winners from 2007 ECF game 5 & 2009 ECF game 2. So before he even left Cleveland he already had a resume of playoff game winners and all time playoff performances.
2nd one is honestly fair. When you are not the favorite to win, it takes a lot of pressure off and makes it easier to be clutch. The first time he was in the finals as the favorite on the Heat, he choked hard. I honestly think that was a huge wake up call to him.
@Jake Terpening He had a big clutch performance at the end of the closeout game against Boston in 2011 and in one of the Bulls games too - as the favorite.
LeBron did unravel in the 2011 finals, the Mavs defense exposed his weaknesses, but other than that one series, his entire career was borderline immaculate when it came to "Clutch". One bad series doesn't erase a career's worth of accomplishments, imo.
LeBron's clutch and anyone who disagrees are either stupid or just plain dumb. Sure he had the worst meltdown of a superstar in the history, but that doesn't change the fact that he has countless clutch moments both regular and in the playoffs. Defensively or Offensively. Before 2012 and After 2012.
LeBron James is the most overrated athlete in sports history
Career zone shooting %s:
35% 10-16ft (mid-range)
34% 16ft+ on 6 3pta per game
72%FT line
= Can't shoot
(A - Little to no flaws/Perfection B - Effective C - League average D - Below average F - Inadequate/no skill)
Perimeter Defense: F
Reading passing lanes: C
Stealing the ball: D
Help defense: F
Interior Defense: B
Lateral quickness: D
Hasn't made an All-Defensive team in 10+yrs (the years he did I looked wasn't even Top 5 in stls and blks for that season and his DBPM was low compared to others)
Led the league in pts let up on defensive 1on1 situations (2012-13 - interestingly one of the same seasons he almost won a DPOY proving how overrated the man is)
= Can't play defense
On shots with 1min. or less to tie or to win the game LeBron James in the regular season is 19/96 (19%), in the playoffs is 9/25 (36%), and in the finals is 0/7 (0%) ... and to add insult to injury the majority of those shots didn't even win the game. They either tied, went into OT and they won or lost. Now he has the most buzzer beaters in the playoffs, but they aren't game winners so is it really clutch?
= Isn't clutch
= No handles/finesse
= A passive leader who doesn't improve his teammates. Only limits their skill level
When properly evaluating LeBrons career the man realistically isn't even a Top 5 player All-Time
@@jaketerpening3284 Doesn't take away his performance in 07 where he rallied his team 25 pts in the last quarter and ot. Or his game winner in 09 against Orlando and many more. He's clutch ever since. Media just amplified his choke job in 2011 to a point where every clutch moments he have and had is negated by one performance. And until this day, someone like skip holds it dear to his heart and you would hear him talk about it every day since that's where most of his fame and fortune came from
I think when we’re talking about people at this level, the goat just comes down to personal preference. All of these guys were so good, so much fun to watch, and led their teams to such incredible heights. So while it is fun to debate, it’s ridiculous anyone gets mad about it. I watched the tail end of MJs career, grew up watching Kobe’s career, and have seen all of Lebrons career. All three of them were incredible, and deserve to be apart of the discussion
YESS for me multiple goats Kareem MJ Bron Wilt or Bill
@@tupacalypse88 seriously. Anyone of those guys has a good argument to be the goat. What we should really be doing is just appreciating how good these guys are, and enjoying their games
except most impact stats point to lebron and mj being head and shoulders above most everyone else
@@cwj_721 those can be misleading, but yeah I get what you’re saying. To be clear, MJ and Lebron are 1 and 2 for me, with some separation between #3
4:45..An 18 year old rookie LeBron James improved the Cavaliers by 18 games over the previous season
Yeah and the team had a lot of 20-23 year olds that got better as a result of playing one more year. In year prior, Carlos boozer was 21, Ricky Davis 23, and and Darius Miles 21. That would be 40% of their teams scoring, a bunch or players under age 23 the year before.
@@Homer-OJ-Simpson good point. Boozer was a beast. I think it's a shame how they dog the rest of those early Cleveland teams. Not saying they were loaded, but they were a decent squad.
@@tywayne3 Boozer wasn’t a beast stop it already,he was never good on defense and what he average 10 ppg
@@NoSpinster0909 an All Star and 20 and 10 after breaking his leg, but that's fine if you disagree. I'm not gonna argue. Also he was an Olympian.
@@tywayne3 I’m only talking about as a Cavalier he averaged those numbers only twice 3 years after leaving the Cavs as a member of the Jazz
I feel like the biggest reason people bring up LeBron's 4-6 record is that LeBron fans (I see this often) will act as if Making it TO the finals carries the same weight as winning. Which is absurd.
Exactly what I was about to say. In my experience, the only reason the 4-6 finals record gets brought up in the debate is when lebron fans try saying going to finals 8 times in a row should give him brownie points for being the goat...that's when the ring talk comes into play because all though he made it to finals 10 times, it is really hard to not bring it up and say it is a blemish when mj went 6 for 6 with the most important aspect being mj played with WAY LESS talent compared to lebron and still won more.
It shouldn’t, but a deeper appearance as the number one option is a deeper appearance as the number one option.
@@nicholashackie1407 MJs teams were deep playoff contenders without him. Lebrons teams are barely winning twenty games without him.
@@nicholashackie1407 MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
@@nicholashackie1407 Jordan quit TWICE second was because he knew he can't win without phill Jackson and Scottie Pippen. Goat dont QUIT and than go to the wizards and CHOKE.
Thank you for this content Johnny. 💯
LeRoids can't be in the conversation when you bring up Jason Terry and JJ Barea 🤣😂😁😆
Balanced, fact-based, level-headed, knowledgeable. Your channel is an oasis of quality in the pool of ignorance that is UA-cam.
Disengenous takes for narrative is nba twitter summed up. And why it's a toxic dump. This video is 🙌
SPOT ON! When people say Jordan can't pass or rebound and only scored. Amateurs. First he averaged about 6 and 6, but if they go back and watch games he's no look passing at half court. I've seen him do it twice in the same game. It's people that didn't watch him play and don't today like a few of us still do.
Good one! Complete game!
Jonny, random comment, but cant tell you how much i love the intro... it's so simple, but it warms my heart everytime i see Kobe crossing the ball 'tween his legs, reading the defender's movements. Miss the Bean 💔
Also on LeBron's Finals record, look at his last 3 losses with the Cavs. One was when his 2nd and 3rd options went down (something no player in history could overcome), and then a 73 win team had to go out and recruit a top 3 player in order to beat him. To compare this to MJ, it would be like him losing Pippen and Rodman/Grant (depending on the run), in which case he'd lose the Finals. And it would be like MJ beating the Sonics in 96 and they respond by going out and signing Shaq in free agency, in which case MJ would have 2 more Ls on his Finals resume.
Fr
Btw, the thought of 96 Sonics having Shaq is scary💀
@@muizmin Exactly, that team would have won 70 games and destroyed everybody in the playoffs. Fact is, MJ never had the hurdles that LeBron had to clear
Stupid hypotheticals talk about what actually happened
I presume Bron would also have 2 less chips if he didn’t join Miami with Wade and Bosh. Stupid argument. You have all the energy to talk about other overpowered teams, yet ignore Bron was on one for 4years in a weaker conference. And he still lost 2 of those. And don’t give me Wade’s injury cuz you’ll very likely ignore Pippen’s injuries in the 98 finals as well. If you want to give credit to Bron for losing against a superteam in the final, then 1. Go back and give extra credit to the teams that actually beat Bron’s superteam, and praise those that lost against that heat team. 2. Give extra credit to every team stuck in the same same conference as the Warriors cuz per your argument, they had absolutely no chance of making the finals, and Bron was just lucky he was in a different conference.
I believe George Gervin was a Hall of Fame Bulls player in that Celtics series, I think he retired after MJs 63 pt game, he didn't finish the series.
I'm British I could be wrong, I l'm a fan of the Iceman
I recently saw on UA-cam (while it was still up) the 63pt game and another in the series. Iceman got no playing time in the playoffs. He came in somewhere in the 2nd quarter of the 63pt game and didn’t make a shot. Can’t remember him even taking a shot.
Yeah Gervin was there for one year. He'd gone from being a 26ppg + mid-defender a couple yrs earlier , to a 16ppg + non-defender, and he was off to Italy immediately after.
@@shaft9000 "16ppg + non-defender, " He didn't even play in the playoffs. Only reason he got 16ppg regular season is Jordan missed 60 games from injury so iceman played a lot. But by that point his offense was okay and his sub-par defense became a super sub-par.
I just looked him up. In the 3 playoff games, he played in 2 games for a total of 11 minutes and took one shot only, missing it
I grew up in Chicago and (was still young at the time) and never knew Gervin was on the Bulls until I saw a video earlier this year. I pretty much knew most of the players on the teams after that so maybe that's a year earlier than I started paying attention because we were all about the Bears winning the Super Bowl (knew most of the players on the Bears team that year too). 🤷🏿♂️
I think in any sports argument things need to be in context. Eras, play styles, rule changes, competition, teammates. It doesnt matter the sport, context is everything.
Put the top 10 most SKILLED HOF players on a list. Put the top 10 most ATHLETIC HOF players on a list. Now add individual and team accomplishments. MJ is the GOAT because of how high he ranks on both of those lists, plus his individual and team accomplishments.
jordan losing in the first round was just a counter-argument to bron's 4-6 record. no one really knocks mj for that cuz like bron he didn't have much help. but the difference is bron can get to the finals with not much help while jordan can't
New sub here keep up the good quality work man
one that kills me slowly inside is the fact that people always say lebrons legacy was saved by ray allen. if lebron never scored 14 in the 4th there would be no legacy saving shot by ray. and they hold that against bron even till this day
LeBron scored all those points except the most important, the game tying shot
@@Sf75178 I’m sorry basketball is a team sport correct? Or is bron supposed to do everything himself
@@jasonmoukala8909 of course it's a team sport !
But LeBron fans praise him for scoring all those points yet he misses the important one to tie the game
@@Sf75178 are u gonna bring up the fact that he put up 37 in the close out game to win the chip lmao he was awesome that series and put his team in a position to win
@@amarevanhook7453 I am not denying he was great. But hitting all those shots except the most important says a lot
We NEED a Part 2 to this bro💯
This should be a series
love your content man. don't ever stop making videos please
this is the best nba video ive ever seen in my life you are a legend sir hats off to you
Allen Iverson’s defense is a critique that drives me insane. He was the most elite defender of all-time under 6 feet!
Lane steals & being an on ball lock isn't the same
@@mullymullyt
I understand the argument that AI wasn’t a good defender and I agree that he wasn’t an elite on-ball defender, but let’s look a little deeper into that accusation. For one, Iverson’s defense is historically compared to traditional shooting guards which is misleading. We know he wasn’t a true SG, but merely played before position-less basketball. Consider his assists average which is only rivaled by Jerry West and James Harden at the SG position, who are consequently other “point guards” who’ve played the 2. Compared to other players of his *true* position, and taking height and weight into account, no player in NBA history has placed higher in the DPOY race than Iverson (ref. 2003), and there has never been a DPOY winner listed below 6’3. His career defensive rating, while _some_ elements can be influenced by teammates, is identical to Kobe Bryant. But furthermore, most bigs in NBA history, from Wilt to Shaq, aren’t considered great on-ball defenders either, and are only expected to be good post defenders. I say all of this to emphasize that “good defense” is _relative_ to a players position and although Iverson was listed as a SG, his defense cannot fairly be assessed when compared to a 6’4-6’9 WING.
@@mullymullyt Iverson led the league in steals 3 times in his career which was tied for the most ever at the time of his retirement. Only Chris Paul has surpassed that mark since. While he did strategically play the passing lanes, he wasn’t able to cheat or hedge during the 2001 season as there were still “illegal defense” rules at the time. So, it required a higher level of skill to play passing lanes as compared to the lazier, gambling we see today. In 2001, the Sixers were 5th in the league in defensive raring. Of course some will argue this was due to Dikembe Mutombo’s presence on the roster (or Theo Ratliff before the trade), but Iverson’s individual defensive rating was better than everyone on his own roster outside of Mutombo/Ratliff, George Lynch, and Jumaine Jones who all manned the front court. It’s true that some of the factors that go into a player’s defensive rating can be impacted by their teammates or help defense. But consider that Iverson ranked 3rd among shooting guards in the league and would’ve been 2nd if you considered him a PG. But Eric Snow, the Sixers starting PG, wasn’t even in the top 25 and Jason Terry, who played the vast majority of the season with “DPOY” Mutombo in Atlanta, was only 24th among SG’s. So, Iverson couldn’t have merely benefited from help defense as it would have also inflated the defensive rating of other player’s in the Philadelphia backcourt. Aaron McKie was the closest to Iverson, ranking 5th among all SGs in the league.
@@mullymullyt I can’t say he was the best point guard defender ever because Gary Payton was a Point Guard. But if we’re speaking traditionally, 6’3 or below, he is the greatest defender _ever_ at that size. (Bear in mind that, although Chris Paul led the league in steals 6 times, his career average through those 9 seasons was identical to Iverson’s average through 9 seasons). I consider Iverson the better defender because he didn’t have the benefit of playing zone defense for his first 5 seasons and also helped anchor a better defense during his prime, in a stauncher defensive era. So, CP3 would be a near second. Mookie Blaylock also makes a case but I haven’t dug deep into his defensive accolades. I will do my due diligence.
You got to be kidding
I didn’t know Kobe dropped 50pts in game 6 against PHX. I also didn’t know Luke, Smush, Kwame, and Mihm was his starters lol.
Yeah, that was exacly that roster. If Kobe played that season with some other teammates, he would have one of the greatest seasons in NBA history, but because his teammates were soo bad, he won only 45 games and I think he won half or more games alone that season. Than against Phoenix I was missed when I saw how great he was in game 6, he scored 50 points and destoyed the Phoenix that game, but everyone other was soo lazy to grab the rebound, all of them were soo soft soo they didn't let Kobe to ein that game. After that he had bad game 7, but people forgot about any other game before when he was the main reason why they won their 3 games. And if those teammates weren't soo lazy to grab that last rebound, maybe Kobe would move to the conference finals that year and if he was able to do that WITH THAT TRASH ROSTER, people would look him VERY, VERY different right now.
Game 6 is ony of my favorite kobe games, he was one box out by Odom away from the second round
bro, Michael Jordan is so fucking good when you look at it. Omg, everytime i learn more of his career i have this feeling
On an statistical and individual level he is untouchable imo (apart from Wilt maybe). 86-87 he averaged 37ppg on 48% with 3spg and 1.5bpg. 87-88 he averaged 35ppg on 53.5% and with 3spg and 1.6bpg. Then there’s 88-89, where he averaged 32ppg/8rpg/8apg on 54% (24 games of him playing as pg he put up 30ppg/9rpg/10apg). Goat
@@AveChristusRex789 i couldnt agree more. I actually think lebron has a type goat career, kareem, and even others but man, MJ is so impressive in every aspect that is almost impossible to beat him. He has all time stats, all time accolades, all time narrative, everything
Yup, more than any athlete we've seen before or since -
_the more you study film of Jordan, the better and better he gets._
@@031nathan MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
@@shaft9000 MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
there is context to the Jordan first round exits before Pippen was ready to help him out. Its mostly to remind people that Jordan lost, like everyone else, before his team was good enough to compete. There is so much mystic around Jordan the Legend that we have to remind people that there was a period where he used to lose vs better teams. It's also to give context to his achievement of winning in every NBA finals he went to. To remind them that he needed Pippen, Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman and other good role players like Paxton, Armstrong and Kerr to make it possible. Being coached by Phil Jackson didn't hurt either. Yes, Jordan was the man, but no man can do it alone in the NBA.
There are other players who could've had as much success if their team situation was just as good, but that's not always the case. For instance, one area where Jordan can claim a lot of success is the health of himself and his team during those historic 3-peats. Both LeBron and Kobe would undoubtable have had more success in winning titles if they were similarly as fortunate.
It's very difficult to win back to back, and especially to 3-peat. Things have a tendency to fall apart first. It's true it's a credit to Jordan's leadership and character that it worked out twice in his case; nevertheless, he was still fortunate that it did.
It's not my intent to name a GOAT in this argument. I just want a little bit of demystification in the argument. There are things to consider when we make these arguments. It's my thoughts, that when it comes to situation during career peaks, Jordan had it easy. While his fame was definitely a contributing factor, everything came to him with little forcing. In Bron's case, he had to move. Kobe on the other hand had to wait for the other 2 1/2 players he needed to win. Bron in particular did it the hard way. The NBA is built to be against fabricating championship teams from next to nothing, and in all three situations where he had championship success, it was a race to win before the consequences of spending everything for a contending team came crashing down. The 90s Bulls on the other hand was done the correct way, and being able to make moves for the second round of success after the first is also something historically proven to work after the first round of success succeeded when it was done the correct way the first time. Anyway, Kudos to Kobe for sticking it out for the least effective method of the three to pan out.
The critique of Jordan's first round exits is a critique I use, but I don't use it to say he wasn't worthy. I use it to say, let's put things in perspective. Michael Jeffery Jordan was indeed special, but let's get real and not get caught in the fabrication there's more than there actually was, part of his legacy is due to great fortuitous situations shining down on him. The critique is used to show that there is a difference when he had his team behind him and what it was like before that, and when we consider the basketball greats, we show consider this part of the equation, because none of them did it without a great team. Yes you have to have a great player like Russel, like Wilt, like Kareem, like Moses Malone, like Bird, like Magic, like Isaiah, like Jordan, like Hakeem, like Shaq, like Duncan, like Kobe, like LeBron, like Kawhi and like Curry. Yes, you have to have that sort of player, there is no argument here, but what if Hakeem had had Pippen and Rodman instead of Jordan in 96-98? Just saying. This argument that Jordan was the ultimate gatekeeper needs to go away. Jordan was tier SS among the greatest; however, I do think some of his solitary feats could've been matched if other players at the same time had his situation instead. You have to have the first part, the player for sure, but you have to have the team, the second part also.
As much as a player can “carry” a team they can only do so much because basketball is a team game and every single one of these critiques shows you the limits of what one player can do
I want to preface Lebron isn't in competition with Kobe just to be clear. How the hell is Kobe in the top 3 wtf?
honestly I was expecting the critique of Kobe being carried by Shaq to be mentioned
I could have, but that would've been pretty repetitive for my channel tbh. A couple months ago, I made a video solely about that topic.
He was indeed carried by Shaq in 2000. The next 2 rings were not
@@JasonZhao4711 I agree.
Bro the fact that people are even looking at rookie seasons and discrediting these players is crazy. I haven’t watched the full video yet, so idk what you’re gonna say about Kobe, but the reason MJ lost in the first round is the same reason Lebron lost in the finals. He played fantastic in the series, but played against some all-time great teams. Pistons and Celtics in the first round for MJ. Warriors and the Spurs for Lebron. This is coming from a Lebron fan, btw.
Exactly. Too many people say it's one player's fault they played a legendary team in first round
Those same fans that say Jordan didn’t win in the 80’s are the same ones that ignore LeBron didn’t win in the 2000’s.
Jordan didn’t win until the 90’s and LeBron didn’t win until the 2010’s.
true even as an mj fan, we dont count 07 bron loss finals as a dent on his resume, thats actually an achievement!
The problem is people compare lebron and jordan so it gives crazy critiques.
The problem is that Jordan fans are the worst.
@@younglove3362 I digress, jordan fans aren't confused as to who's the goat.
I don't think it really hurts Kobe, but any time you're up 3-1 and fail to close the series out, thats a legit gripe. Kobe clearly tried, but Lakers should have been able to win.
The real argument against Kobe is his emense volume of missed shots. He has the NBA record by 12 thousand and change.
Lakers team had no business being up 3-1 and Kobe scored 50 pts in game 6 they lost it because T Thomas hit a buzzer 3pt send it to OT they were that close
@Wesley Faulkner why isn't it the same for LeBron's turnovers, which are worse...
@@davis2k1234 the real problem with game 6 I think Phil Jackson Phil Kobe was going outside of the plane which almost worked but ultimately didn't. They didn't build a 3-1 lead off Kobe going off every game but actually by slowing the game down and exploiting their mismatches down low. I'm guessing Kobe didn't take criticism well which resulted in his game 7 performance
@@str8duval Kobe didn’t take the criticism well who would he carried a G League team all season by himself and in a game 7 after dropping 50Pts and losing in OT your own coach and media blame you for the loss because people are saying to get one the worst players in the NBA would literally could barely even catch a basketball thrown at him K Brown and company more shots it was joke bad coaching and the typical media hating on Kobe as always
You really gotta get into game 7! So many nuances to that game it’s crazy. I remember it like yesterday, I was so confused to what was happening. But then we learned later on everything that went on in the locker room and that sideline, it makes sense.
What happened, exactly? I wasn't watching the NBA during that time.
@@samuelperezgarcia Trash laker roster basically. Not just skillfully but mentality wise they just weren't there. Only kob want that chip
Phil Jackson threw Kobe under the bus as did the media saying if he passed more to K Brown Smush and L Walton C Minm the team would play better so he showed them what would happen with that game plan blame Phil not Kobe for that game 7 loss
I personally hate the hate these 3 get from haters just be happy you got to watch there amazing seperate careers
I only hear people bring up Bron being 4-6 when comparing him to MJ. Everybody knows that 10 finals appearances is great, just not better than 6 finals championship including two 3-peats.
Holy shit MJ is incredible
Stop glazing
MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
MJ fans dont know
# MJ never won without Scottie and phill Jackson.
# choked a 2-1 lead against PISTON
# was a LOSER below 500 BEFORE tgey drafted Scottie PIPPEN.
#been swept twice
#NEVER BEAT LARRY BIRD IN HIS PRIME
#beat the WEAKEST COMPETITION aka expansion league.
#never beat the best competition in the finals like (GSW,SPURS).
#got a first round pick,STILL CHOKED WITH THE WIZARDS.
@@coreythomas3633 it’s you again 🤦♂️. Russell played in a league with only 10 teams and had a quarter of the league’s best talent on his own team with guys like KC Jones, Bob Cousy, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, etc. Then he only had to play 10-12 playoff games while MJ had to play upwards of 20 to win his rings. Horry and Havlicek never led his team to a ring so they can go too MJ’s 6 rings > Bill’s 11, Havlicek’s 8 and Horry’s 7 any day Corey 😂😂😂
No point in addressing your other clown takes it’s clear you ain’t watch the video
@@coreythomas3633 buddy u have no idea what you're talking about, you expect a rookie mj to beat the celtics dynasty led by larry in the first round twice in a row without pippen? Sure as hell you're not delusional enough to think lbj will beat them if he met larry in the first round right....? And PISTON that you were talking about were the BAD BOYS PISTONS, the team who played such physical defense that cooked the showtime. Bron fans like you seem to not understand context
It sounds ridiculous but it’s true, 4-0 sounds worlds better then 4-6 even when it’s really not. Unfortunate, but it be what it be.
Truth. Can’t be giving 2nd place awards now
lets put it differently, how about medals like the Olympic : 4 golds or 4 golds and 6 silvers?
@@AveChristusRex789 MJ is in second place
MJ 1-9 without Scottie Pippen try again. He QUIT because he couldn't play with his team anymore cane back and was TRASH with the wizards. 4 6 is not put into to conext. Because lebron faced better competition in the finals. MJ never beat dynasty gsw or spurs. Stop the stupidity
MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
I understand the 4-6 argument about LeBron and somewhat agree with your statement Jonny. Although there's also a small problem with that. LeBron is pretty much the only top 10 player of all time who is given praises with reaching the finals. Reaching the finals is not a trophy. If one reaches the finals and loses it's still just another loss. The only thing that makes it a bit more meaningful is that it happens on the biggest stage but in the end it's still only a loss.
For some reason LeBron fans are pretty much the only ones who count 'reaching the finals' as an accolade. People who consider Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Wilt, Bird or whoever to be their GOAT pretty much never count 'he made the finals this and that many times'. When it comes to other candidates people count the rings while with LeBron they also want to count finals appearances. That's having two standards and an argument like that does not work with me.
And I guarantee you’re the same ppl who think losing in the first round is better then making it to the championship and losing👎🏾
I bet u good money none of the top 10 players all time would even make it there with most of lebrons teams. Besides the heat and early cavs
@@cumbusta9175 No it is not. A loss is a loss and 6 is more than 4. The ultimate goal in the playoffs is to win the championship and only those winner are remembered and really make into the history books. Winning is winning and it matters very little at which point one loses. In the end there's only one team that wins and the other 15 teams that make the playoffs are losers. Some of them lose earlier than others but 15 of 16 still lose and losing should not be an accolade.
And as Jonny nicely brought up in the video the opponents MJ lost against in the 1st round were loaded. There probably weren't too many people expecting Bulls to win against them anyway.
It's also a completely another topic and argument to look at and go through the competition and opponents LeBron had to face when he made it to the finals through East. When MJ was playing the East was the more deep conference and when LeBron played with the Cavs and Heat East was quite weak and the West was the much more loaded one.
@@Zamppa86 you just contradicted yourself, you told me a loss is a loss yet you being up the reason why jordan lost in the first rounds was because he went against stacked teams. Who care if he went against stacked teams a los is a loss correct???
@@cumbusta9175 Loss is a Loss as I said. I just wanted to point out what the context of MJ losing was. Not an excuse but just an explanation.
In the end the championship matters. Every other team loses at some point.
Always love your videos and your take. Keep up; the great work for the culture..
We need more of these🔥 I’ve been thinking all these for a while
@🤙MRJonnyarnett why this a different account?
I definitely think Kobe quit and it was to spite the media so that doesn’t take away from the failure. If anything, isn’t it worse to give up on your team just because the media called you out? Imo that was part of Kobe’s evolution into 08, less care about negative backlash for shooting games (see 2010 finals)
didnt kobe himself admit that he quit on the team? barkley called him out on it and kobe said "yeah i fucked up." i mean thats not how the conversation went verbatim (i think) but it's similar.
Side note: If the Lakers win there, then we would have gotten a “Staples” series in 2006.
@@fortynights1513 That would have been hilarious. Heck would the Clippers even have had a true "home" game? Seems even when they changed the colors for their home games, the crowd would probably have been mostly purple and gold.
@@sabishiihito Clippers may not have had a true home game in that hypothetical series, but they were probably better that year.
After all, they took the Phoenix team the Lakers lost to to seven games.
Either one loses to Dallas in the conference finals either way though.
Wasn’t just the media Phil Jackson ripped him saying he needs to pass to K brown smush l Walton c Minm more it was pure non sense blame Phil not Kobe he just did what his coach wanted him to do get Kwami brown involved more 🤷♂️
Id love the reversal for this video a look at underrated greatness would be the title where an established legend overlooked now gets a highlight of their most well known moments for example tim Duncan's 03 playoff run David Robinson 70 point game or Scottie pippen lone season without jordan where he finished top 5 in mvp voting🎉
Every lebron fan I “debate” with always brings up MJs 1st round exits 😂 they don’t care about context.. thank you for this video 🙏
Do these people imply that Scottie was in his prime immediately?
Side note: Because it’s a first round series, and he accomplished what he did, I think MJ’s 1988 first round is underrated.
He scored the second most points per game in a playoff series on 56% from the field, and I don’t see too many people bring it up.
In all honesty they probably just don't know how stacked the East was during that time. Even though the Bucks never won a championship during Moncrief's time they still had the 3rd most wins in the East through the 80s for example...
And the Celtics were the Celtics. Almost everyone atleast should know how loaded their team was and prime Bird alone was a top 5 player of all time...
and every jordan fan "debates" 6-0.
you cant talk to them because all they say is 6-0, talk about missing context.
It's so aggravating bruh
@@Max-me9ol yep, they do everything they get in their feelings about more then any other players fan base does.
Finally! Thank you! Someone needed to say this!
4-6 just shows you that he had had an unfair advantage in the East and couldn’t hold his own in the Finals. He got swept in two of those 6 losses and 5 in* another 2. That is pathetic. In his Cleveland career, he won a total of 2 Finals games without Kyrie Irving and 0 outside of the Kyrie-ERA.
I lost respect for LeBron when he started coasting during the regular season with his 2nd Cleveland stint because he knew he'd make the finals. (I.e. playoff mode)
@@tywayne3 facts!
If the east was so weak why no other teams were making the finals out of the east
10 Finals.....how many future Hall Of Famers were apart of Lebron Run. How many current HOFs played in that run. But he 4-6. He has so much talent surrounding him from 2010- present
Yeah that's the big reason why he gets criticized for being 4-6 in the Finals. Even his critics expected him to be nearly 10-0 in the Finals with all the superteams, team-hopping, and LeGM trades he's done, with the exception of injuries.
Now ask yourself how many future Hall of Famers were on the other side which were also in more cases actually healthy
He’s played with 3 different teams of course he’s gonna have more players he played with on his resume you smelly goblin😂and unlike Jordan he actually faced dynasties and half of his finals losses came against odds he had no chance at winning. As usual bron haters have brain cancer when it comes to context
@@str8duvalKobe and Jordan both played with less talented teams and still won more while playing against HOFamers/Future HOFamers 🤷🏾♂️
@Kyle Mathieu False. Kobe played with a way more talented teams then Jordan. Stop trying to lump them together. He also won more because he didn't have to be the best player on this team for 3 of them
The willful ignorance and lack of objectivity/rationality in this so called ‘information age’ is depressing. Not just in the NBA GOAT debate but in all facets of life it seems like.
Everyone wants to get your attention but few have anything substantive that you probably haven’t heard before.
Individuals are only inclined to think objectively when they know that others are _depending_ on them to attempt to do so.
The sooner you can accept this, the better you'll feel about people being totally subjective as _basketball fans._
4 of 10 is impressive, no doubt. Some players don't get to the finals one time. But for the goat debate, how the greats won and lost on the highest level has to be considered. It's in the finals where the greats become legends and they decide how high they rise on all time rankings. Why should the NBA want a goat that while he got to the finals 10 times, he lost 6, got swept in 2 of those and choked in 2 of them? As opposed to a player that won 6 of 6, never choked or got swept in the finals or even allowed a game 7? I'm not just criticizing James. It's about the comparison of the two finals records for the goat debate.
Why should the nba want a goat that couldnt get past the second round until he got hall of famers around him? Your argument would make sense if there was some kinda perfect player. But there isnt any player In nba history that doesnt have some kind of postseason failures holding there legacy back
@Uhhh Cheese I'll say it a different way. No player gets to the finals each year. Those that never win have no claim at all to the goat debate. Because the bar is raised so much higher in the finals. That's why the only ones you hear mentioned are those with multiple championships. Their legacies are forged in the finals. Mj does not have the failures in the finals that LeBron, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Curry have. With that on top of all his achievements and accolades, how does it not make sense for him to be considered the GOAT of the sport?
@@True-Believer616 because bro lost in the first 2 rounds a million time. Regardless if he was supposed to win or not.
@@uhhh_cheese So you still on that first round loss thing? Losing to the Boston super team in the first round is nowhere near the same as getting swept twice and choking in the finals.
@@True-Believer616 and your still on the same thing he talked about bron 😭
Truth be told, the Goat debate is strictly generational. Everyone has their own goat
In 2019, a players poll went 73 percent for Jordan and 12 percent for Lebron. And 59% to 33% in 2023. Lebron could be called the biggest loser. He has as a losing record of 22-33 in finals games. In 11 healthy seasons in Cleveland, Lebron won only 1 championship. In 11 healthy seasons in Chicago, Jordan won 6. He still trails Jordan by a monumental difference to make up: 2 championships. 2 Finals MVPs, 1 DFPY, 1 MVP, 4X all defense, 9X PPG and 3X steals. In the Jxmy Highroller youtube video "Asking Over 100 NBA Players Who the GOAT is, 80 picked Jordan and 30 picked Lebron. In the video "23 teammates of Lebron and Jordan pick the GOAT", 18 of 23 picked Jordan. Most stars asked don’t put Lebron in their team of 5 to win a championship. So how can he be in the same tier as Jordan? In Johnny Arnett's video of the greatest players of all time by their best peak, Lebron comes in at seventh. Jordan never choked, was a much better defender, perhaps best in the league, a better free point thrower, actually had a mid-range shot, and played in a more difficult era. Jordan had the greatest vertical leap of all time and the biggest hands of any top 5 player. Lebron is also not clutch going 0-7 in the last 10 seconds of finals games while Jordan is 4 of 8. Jordan also blows him away in the final 24 seconds. LeBron isn’t even better than Kobe. Lebron was swept by Spurs team 07. Kobe beat them in ‘08 4-1. Lebron lost to Magic in ‘09 ECF 4-2. Kobe beat them 4-1. Lebron lost to the Celtics in ‘10 ECSF 4-2. Kobe beat the same team in 2010 4-3. Above all else, Lebron doesn’t pass the eye test. Only Jordan, Kobe, and Dr. J do this in magical form. So who cares about statistics if no one wants to watch you play. I wouldn’t pay to watch Lebron or Kareem play unless I want to eat and sleep in their arena. Highroller is mad to put Lebron in the same tier as Jordan. As insane as the 5 teamates out of 23 who would rather play (lose) with Lebron.
Sorry but I'll never look at a 4 and 6 record in the finals as anything but a failure especially because he had a super duper team for 4 of them but underachieved. I'll give you 2007 and 2015 for sure.
Anyone critiquing Jordan never saw him play live, either in person or on tv. They never felt what it was like for Jordan to be on live tv.
That’s the Same Argument as People Who only like Jordan because other people like him, majority of kids today Never Watched Jordan Play, Yet Say he is the goat, I’m not hating I’m just saying I’m tired of people only believing the media
MJ doesn't have the most rings. He not the greatest defender not the greatest SCORER not the greatest shooter(steph curry is). Like robery horry and john HALVACK 7-0 and 8-0. Bill Russel won 11 championship in 13 year's. 😂 not 6 in 15 year's. So how is MJ the goat exactly.
And people say lebron is coddled lmfao
And people say lebron is coddled lmfao
@@coreythomas3633 cause read my comment Nd don’t being oblivious like a female, Nd bill Russell Nd havelick played nobody wit like 9 team den added 13 wit only 2 rounds, Nd Big shot I fw big shot buh he was never da man on nun of dat those teams, knockdown big shots dats wat your role players do like Steve Kerr Nd Ray Allen right? Once mike started winning shun at lose nomore after dat, wit 2 3peats nigga dats mad hard to do u not seeing anuva 2 3peats ever let alone one, Nd never went to game 7 Nd all of these niggaz playen they heart out ina game 7, it’s a done deal already ya jus mad mike did it first Nd rightfully so FOH if shoe was on other foot ya would have a field day
For LeBron, i think the bigger criticism is longevity and how he naturally acrues records because of it. Does he lead all-time in scoring because he's a great scorer, or because he's had so many games to score in?
Plus, LeBron fans often talk like he invented the modern medicine and nutritional science that allowed him to stay as healthy and competitive for as long as he has.
LeBron is 10th all time in games played behind some other great scorers like Kareem, Karl Malone, and Dirk Nowitzki. LeBron is also 6th overall in career points per game. LeBron is definitely a great scorer.
the thing people have trouble separating is 'greatest' from "best"
Well you have to be a great score to to be the all-time leading scorer. You just don't become the leading scorer just by simply staying in the league longer. You actually have to be good enough stay on the floor long enough to get those buckets
Wow this comment is kinda brain numb. Lebron has played less games than many people he scored more points than. It's not just "oh he played a long time" no bro he's a great scorer. You can't just stumble into 38K points 😭
This comment is late to the game, and there are literally thousands of comments ahead of it...BUT, what this video does a great job in trying to help dispel is this zero-sum game nonsense that has infected sports talk, and many other aspects of culture. If someone disagrees with you, then they are automatically stupid, against you, etc. Thank you, once again, for bringing objectivity to sports talk, and also for reminding people yet again, that if someone disagrees with you, it doesn't invalidate your entire existence.
Probably your best video to date that i have watched..
3:35 the 4-6 argument does not mean take away his legendary performance in game 7. If he would have played the same but lose, we would still praise him for carrying them that far. A final record of 4-5 with potential to be 5-5 in the finals looks better than 4-6. 2011 still happens and he still makes 8 straight finals with a 3-1 comeback
The LeBron 4-6 critique should only really sting if you don't want to admit the East was weak for a stretch of his career. If it wasn't weak and he beat good teams then his Finals record is an underachievement.
Yes, you can't have it both ways.
Facts …
Makes no sense at all bron haters are to funny
So glad you brought up the 4-6 bs. That argument drives me insane and you see it all over. As if making the finals ten times isn't an accomplishment. MJ has more rings but lebron has had more overall playoff success for a longer period of time. I don't think either of them have a huge edge as far as overall playoff performance goes for the length of their careers. MJ had a better peak, lebron has sustained overall success.
honestly I will only ever make one of these arguments if someone else does it first, just to try and get them to see how absurd they are
Kobe game 6 06 against phoenix is one of his very best games. His shot making in that game is insane, i urge everyone to go watch the highlights for that game
The 4-6 argument is legit. If you’re good enough to make the Finals, you should be good enough to win.
Jerry West doesn’t get credit for making 9 finals. Kobe doesn’t get credit for 7 finals trips.
It’s not enough to get there. You have to win.
That’s not a knock on LeBron as a player, but a legitimate knock when you’re talking about GREATEST OF ALL TIME.
Of course he gets credit, that’s why he’s on the Mount Rushmore.
** oh, and just for the record, I actually DO hold Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against him. But that’s one season. We’re talking about a career.
Exactly. Finally someone brings up Jerry West..I've been saying this for years. West is the only person to Lose in the finals and still be named MVP..
The critique for Lebron, at least from me, is that he is given praise for making it to the final 10 times but not the criticism for losing those finals. You have to acknowledge that it is he AND his team that won/failed. Nobody deserves the flowers without the thorns.
I honestly think Lebron's finals appearances is overrated. When you break down just how massive the talent disparity was between the east & west, it's no longer impressive. The fact that he was beaten so thoroughly in the Finals so often is just a reflection of the fact that his teams/competition in the East were never that good to begin with.
@@donela6730his competition in the east didn’t seem like it was tuff, cause lebron was constantly blowing threw them, now obviously the talent was better in the west but the east seemed so weak cause lebron owned the east.
So does losing before the finals improve his legacy?
@@donela6730 What was the best team he had to beat to make it out of the East (other than 2018 which is said to have been a better conference)?
@@demappless Why would that be a consideration at all?
9:12 a 3-1 lead blown is still a 3-1 lead blown but I see your argument
You hit the nail on the head with both the MJ and LeBron criticisms as they both play into each other ironically.
Swap Jordan for LeBron. You really think Bron goes 6 for 6? You really think Jordan only gets 4 out of 10? Come on.
@@pigs6486 I think Jordan wins in 2011 but not for the other years due to things beyond his control imo. As for LeBron if he plays like he did in 2016 then yes he has a chance of winning 6/6 given the competition was more evenly matched. But I don't see how MJ wins in 2017/2014 forget about 2018 and 2007. But 2011 I feel MJ would've won.
Absolute nonsense
@@pigs6486 Oh well that's your opinion🤷♂
@@pigs6486 I have Jordan at 1 and Lebron at 2 but I'm sorry there is absolutely 0 chance that Jordan is winning against 2007 spurs or 2018 Warriors with those raggedy ass Cavs teams.
I'll give you 2011 and maybe 2014 (that's a stretch).
Great video! 💪🏾
Yes honestly this 3 is my GOAT THANK You..🙏🙏