Part 4 - Linkwitz and Kii Speaker Audition Review and Wrap-Up - Plus Comparisons to GR Research
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2022
- This is the final public video installment of my audition of both the Linkwitz LX521 Speaker and the Kii Audio Speaker System.
As I previously mentioned, everybody argues over the the "best speakers in the world", but it's really about finding the speakers that suit your taste, aesthetics, budget and lifestyle.
These are two expensive reference level speakers from Kii Audio and Linkwitz, but they show where speaker design and technology are going.
In the same ballpark, I compare them to my GR Research Nxtremes and Maggie 20.7 speakers that I featured recently.
You can't go wrong with any of these speakers, but I try to highlight the differences that may suit different tastes and profiles.
For various recommended gear and vendors see my website at audiophilejunkie.com/
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Appreciate your bringing the LX521 up to the surface again, especially in (rare) comparison with other options. Building my LX521 speakers was a personal thing. I finally attended one of Linkwitz's open houses around 2017, and it rekindled a fire in audio. For 25 years I'd been pining for the B&Ws that were always out of my league, always two career promotions away from reality (anyone else notice the model progression/pricing seemed to far outstrip inflation?). So I'd given up...and one of my new hobbies just happened to be woodworking. About $3,500 and a couple months later, I had my own set and the considerable swap in electronics it required (Emotiva BasX amps, MiniDSP10x10 HD). Have not looked back since. I built them from baltic birch exactly to Siegfried's plans; one day I will build a new set with exotic wood lamination to flatter the outline, similar to some of Sonus Faber's pretty woodwork. Linkwitz would hate them of course; he didn't like the idea of speakers as "furniture" and his wife was very accommodating so he never had to consider WAF!
You're not rambling at all Jason. A good in-depth review is worth the investment in time, and I enjoyed your thoughts on these speakers. I kind of heard the same thing when listening to the videos, and your thoughts have only reinforced mine on which speaker I preferred.🎧👍🙂
Awesome! Thank you!
What makes you one of the most reliable audio reviewers is your recognition that when it comes to speaker evaluation the most important considerations are the room, the room and the room.
Ramble on! Your mini-sermon on rooms is spot on. If anyone has surfed UA-cam for audiophile channels then it's clear that some UA-cam channels are all about the peacocking (to reference a term we brought up in the past) and not really about analyzing how to get better music.
Yeah...I hear what you are saying. There is often too much of a focus on brands, fancy chassis, and price without ever understanding how sound works and what REALLY makes a difference.
Masterful job! A wealth of REAL experience brought to bare on issues many of us have questions about. I've been collecting and archiving Siegfried's licenses for several years now against the day I might finally decide to make the leap, but also because things and people have a tendency to disappear from the internet, and years later you kick yourself for not having better foresight. I have also considered other OB approaches and your presentation has removed most of the fog from the road ahead. Rambling? I could have easily listened for another hour.😁
You have the ears buddy and the way you put it I completely follow. Even though I have not heard any of the speakers except the Kii without the bass module. Perfect analysis buddy
Thanks
Thank you, thank you! Great feedback!
Not rambling, not at all... in fact very difficult to get across everything that you're hearing, especially (as you have) taking into account room & setup differences..., and so Thank you so much for tackling this! Very helpful indeed (to me and I'm sure many).
Thanks! Glad it was helpful.
Late to the party, but that was a very good synopsis between the different loudspeaker designs and what you were hearing in the room. 👍
The Cardioid implementation of the Kii THREEs combined with their built-in adjustable DSP that optimizes that bass performance in the room solves 90% of the variable modal issues that you're going to experience with the LX521's O-B subwoofer units.
Completely agree with your assessment of open baffle bass. This aspect led me to sell my Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires.
Regarding the top and bottom module ur talking about it could also be another reason, namely floor to ceiling standing wave. Bass on the floor triggers standing waves which will cancel out some bass frequencies. Thats partly why the Kef blade have the bass drivers so high up from the floor. The closer a bass driver get to the room centerline the less standing waves you get. I've played around with REW and avoiding exciting room modes is the most important thing for good bass. Thats why multisubs have such a huge performance impact, one can have 1 sub on each side of the room's centerlines. Its the next level in good sound and it really makes a huge difference at high volumes.
Your comments on bass and open baffle are dead on. I’ve built several open baffle designs. Starting with a two 15” driver Audio Project knock off and the roll off at 100 hz, even with two 15” drivers was pathetic and required a sub. My latest design is a four way active like the Linkwitz, and like the Linkwitz it doesn’t really have a baffle. Biggest difference is that my speakers suppress the back wave from the woofer and use a 10” sub below each speaker.
For those interested, I’m confident mine will at least match the Linkwitz performance as it’s using the same principles and quality drivers. I use a single 12, 8, 5 1/2 and dome tweeter. I use a pair of minisdsp 2x4 HD’s for crossovers, a pair of used Rotel and Parasound amps and spent a year tuning it after that. My cost for electronics and drivers was around $4,000. After thousands of hours it’s easy now to hear when one is hearing the speaker rather than the original singer/soloist. Only a open baffle-less, (yes, Linkwitz cut away the baffle) like the Linkwitz can achieve that. I learned this the hard after hearing a speaker with a baffle like Spatial Audio, Audio Project etc in A/B blind testing with the baffle cut away.
Open baffle woofers are velocity transducers as opposed to sealed boxes which are pressure devices. They stimulate the room in different ways. The sealed subs will shake the walls and doors and thump your chest. You will hear bass loudly outside a closed door or through a wall or ceiling. With an OB sub, not so much. OB subs also do not radiate energy to the side or up and down and therefore do not excite 2/3 of the room modes. Only modes along the axis of the room from front to back are significantly excited. Sealed box woofers have reflections inside the box that are impossible to avoid. These are all distortions that we have come to know and accept as right and good. Since the vast majority of listeners grew up with this sound it is what we more readily accept. That having been said dipole bass is really hard to beat when it comes to accuracy of reproduction, particular above around 30-40 Hz. They can, when combined in multiples, and with powerful amplifiers produces lots of very high quality bass. But they will never, at any given level, shake the room like a sealed box.
The KII's are fairly unique in that they have a cardioid radiation pattern which pushes energy to the front and some to the sides but greatly reduces the energy striking the front wall, in front of the speakers. This helps to avoid the peaks and dips associated with reflections off that wall. That gives them the ability to largely ignore the front wall from an interaction perspective.
Good post. That's an accurate assessment and mainly why I chose a hybrid approved.
Of course, I have tons of bass traps and little room modes, so it changes the equation. All can provide "reference quality" bass by most people's standards, but there's a flavor some may prefer over the other.
Plus, there are different levels of quality in implementation that can skew preferences as well.
I've read and heard a lot of stuff comparing OB bass to conventional approaches, but this is the FIRST TIME I've seen this kind of explanation. Thanks, it's now as clear as a bell. It feels good to learn truly useful things. You'd think the proponents of OB (and ESPECIALLY the ones who sell it) would have long since made this clarification.
Thanks for your comments. The Linkwitz really blew me away at AXPONA. I'd like to build some at some point. Not sure if I'm confident about building the ASPs though.
When a sub stands out its often wrong phase alignment in 100-500Hz region. Playing around with delay on the main speakers can sometime fix this. In my system I cant add delay to my mains, so the sub filter with the least added delay gave the best integration. I run a 1. order 45Hz lowpass with some aggressive Q filters (in the 1000-3000Hz to remove the unwanted sounds from the subs). My subs have good freq respons to 1600Hz so they are lightening fast and I get away with such a low order filter. I have good phase integration all the way because of the 45degree delay only so I get that BIG sound because the subs doesnt compress in the 100-300Hz at loud volumes that many 6.5"midranges do. Having subs with DSP is a must these days.
Kii Three if you want "as recorded." If you want to mix it with your room character LX521
Interesting me like what you are saying! 👍
I have a different experience with OB bass then what you are expressing here.
My background is that I have similar setup as you have regarding physical room treatment in a dedicated listening room and using miniDSP with PEQ, level matching between mains and bass woofers and delays, 4 different subwoofer presets and crossover between the same.
1. We are all USED and grown up with box speakers. (That gives that we need to (re)learn to appreciate the character of OB bass)
2. For example a bass reflex tube is like a driver that has X mm x-max. But without any cone when it is just a hole. It can therefore be considered as a driver with "infinity" of x-max! (There is one clue to why a bass reflex box feels more physical punchy in the chest)
3. Energy goes from the cone to the compressible air in the bass reflex box and then the air at tuning frequency for the tube go in/out in the bass reflex port. That is a event that is after in the time and harshly has nothing with what the microphone captured at that time.
It will smearing and details will be lost (when drowning behind those produced sounds.)
4. OB will at bass frequencies wrap around the H-frame and the front and back pressure wave will meet and cancel out each other. Therefore the radiation to the sides, up and down (mine is not on the floor) will load the room less than a box speaker will radiate in all directions and one reason why it loads the room more.
When I have 2 18" H-frame OB in a stereo setup (they are hanging in the air and of the floor so that boundary reinforcement is dealt with) and with that cone area and DSP I can easily play as low as I like corrected in the room. But I needed to implement a rumble filter for the TT (high pass@17 Hz).
In the presets for the DSP :
1. Low shelf at 20 Hz +16 dB
2. Low shelf at 20 Hz +12 dB
3. Low shelf at 20 Hz +9 dB
4. Low shelf at 20 Hz +6 dB
So I can select depending on album (recording/mixing), sound level and human hearing sensitivity at low frequencies loudness contour/ISO226.
Anyway I know and measured with REW and calibrated measurement microphone that I HAVE bass in spades objectively!
Now to my experience with all the above preconditions.
I have put a lot of thinking about this and have not understand WHY I don't FEEL the bass impact in the chest, in furniture or anything should rattle somewhere.. ..when I know that I play all frequencies smooth down to 17 Hz and at high levels!
Then it clicked while Ron at new record day explained the phenomena. Yes it is all of the above!
OB benefits is you hear all the details and stuff you have never heard before in great clarity (yes and it helps to work with your natural sensitivity of your hearing and adjust the level up). And do not create as much of a room problems when they don't load the room as much.
But bass reflex boxes is hitting way more harder and they are more fun and load the room far more.
My final though is that if you want to hear clearly everything in a recording and don't miss out any information then OB bass all day long.
But if you want more punch, fun and more if you need to combine with a HT setup then bass reflex boxes are the way to go.
But I am in pure 2ch sound quality camp and appreciate to be able to hear the second pair of heart beats a octave lower down than the more obvious ones that is higher up in the frequency range in DSOM album.
Sorry for the long post but if you have read this far I hope you got something out of it? 🥰🎵🎼🎶
You give a good summary, but what I've found is that the open baffle advantages you speak about are applicable a bit higher up in bass frequencies where there is actual texture and detail that humans can discern.
When you're pumping out 20 and 30hz tones, it's not about texture and detail. You can play these test tones on any sub to hear them alone.
What I think happens with OB bass, is that it's very dependent on your room and volume. Even though technically the bass wraps around and does all those things that are quoted as advantages, it has a variable size cabinet in every room (which is on reason why it needs servo control to behave). It also needs huge multiple drivers. Neither of these things are a negative in most applications. However, if you play loud and really want that impact, it will create so much air movement with no cabinet that becomes noticeable and less punchy as well.
With higher bass frequencies, you don't need servo controls and you don't need massive drivers, you can use a bunch of small drivers like my Nxtremes and then you have almost no trade-offs or downsides.
That's basically why I chose the route I did and is my preference.
Of course, it also depends on quality. A bad sealed box sub will not out perform a great open baffle...and vice versa. Ultimately, the quality of the sub, your crossover point, and other settings are what really determines the quality of bass.
@@AudiophileJunkie Yes, I have also been attracted by GR-reserch OB trippel bass. And if that is them you referring to then probably it is not a apple to apple comparison.🍎
Yes it is open baffle and there stops the similarities.. then no DSP.. and then instead servo controlled..
Servo controlled is great and can do great things but and a big but..
Woofer move because amplifier moves it.. on the woofer there is accelerometer registering the movement after that event. It sends the signal of the movement to the amplifier so it adjust the movement of the woofer as it thinks is the more perfect/right.. all that is afterwards the event has already happened.. yes it is fast and controlled but nevertheless after ..it doesn't calculate it beforehand. And that don't know anything about your room. 🤒
So yes if that is the reference then it were a open baffle but do you know how it would sound without the servo and with DSP instead.. that will make up for a different experience for you and it is still be "OB". (A big system difference)
There is where the DSP shines the PEQ is something that is calculated beforehand for every frequency and a big AND for just those speakers in just exactly that position in that specific room in exactly that specific sweet spot! Then we can start playing.🎶🎼🎵
That is several differences and in my opinion servo controlled bass fall very short in comparison with a "DSP controlled" one.
And as we know bass has the most power and is the most problematic to deal with and the hardest to physical treat so here the DSP has most to gain to prevent to much energy in those low frequency is pumped into the room then creates problems that is almost impossible to deal with when it got into the room. Maybe that is why you experience that you are in the box with OB.. I think it is not the OB that gave you that impression it were suboptimal way to control the OB by servo controlled amplifier it is ALMOST as not using anything but now you have one more parameter/s to try to adjust.. not ideal. (The OB itself do not load the room as traditional boxes does by its side cancelation properties)
Yes many/all accustical album do not get altered at all if bass is boosted as you say in 20-30 Hz because there is no information there.. so nothing to "bost". That I have experienced when I have the ability to do that.👍
But as I said in the previous post that I can hear new information that/when the artists has added like in dark side of the moon (DSOTM). 🥰
And I see it as a electronic album and electronic music has evolved since 1973 when it were released.
Electronic music has not the limitations as acustic instrument has. And therefore can take advantage of whole of our hearing capabilities. So no we do not need to play test tones. If I like electronic music and the creator 😉 knows it is humans that will consume the music and it is up to the consumer to use a system that supports the whole hearable frequency range to get the full experience.
There is for example DSOTM album great example. We have the heart beats as a tema throughout the whole album. In several places they have that heart beat sound but there is the heart beats that Pink Floyd made sure that everyone can hear and remember. But they has also put another pair of heart beats more subtle a octave lower down in frequency.👇
And when the consumer don't usually in the car or kitchen radio can't hear them they will still get the experience of the heart beats that is higher in the frequency band. That their system can easier reproduce.
So a smart move of the band and there could be other music information that the average consumer totally miss out on. And this were -73 since then more songs and albums has been produced than test tones. 😉
yes..servo doesn't guarantee better sound. It SHOULD help, but if the speaker couldn't produce the original response right, there's no guarantee that it will produce the correction right.
There are also qualitative issues with the servo, and it's measurement potential. For those who are anti-measurement or don't trust them, it opens up another can of worms for them to critique.
With DSP, you can always override suggestions via algorithms and use your own ears. This is a HUGE advantage because I know several people who have less than ideal hearing and their "curve/DSP" will be drastically different from what objectively may be ideal.
Very interesting . One thing I consider is how much of an impact is due to separate amplifiers for each driver. That alone seems very significant. And then you layer on DSP and dacs which I guess are separate for each driver. Unclear how the crossovers handled. Discerning the impact of these combined elements is a little bit discomforting. I think about getting all separate components for a complicated recipe vs hello fresh that combines everything together. I don't like to do complicated recipes and I don't like HelloFresh. Would be interesting to see a diagram about how this thing is put together. But it is very interesting.
I wouldn't be afraid of the mfg doing the work for you and picking the amp for the drivers. Odds are good that they tested many options...far more than the average audiophile could test. Plus, their testing is likely based on science, engineering and a great room for doing such tests.
That being said...with the Linkwitz...you do have more options. You can use their amps or your own. Plus, you can use your own preamp and DAC.
The Kii is more of a total system purchase. While you sacrifice the ability to tinker, you save so much on cables and real estate in your house for equipment. Both of those things can trump the need to tinker with different amps/dacs/etc.
One thing that I may have left out about the Kii is that you also gain the ability to place them in more positions in your room. The cardioid bass allows you to get fairly close to the walls with less issues. Thus, you may lose some options with tinkering on equipment, but gain more options for placing them in your room.
This was very interesting and seems to somewhat bolster my theory that the innate characteristics of paper cones & magnesium cones cannot be completely "DSPed" or "EQed" away. Paper has this "alive" sound 😀. But the Holy Grail for me personally has been the combination of paper cones with Neodymium magnets😍.
I would worry more about implementation of different material than just the material. There's a wide range in quality of sound from various people using paper, planar, electrostatic, etc... Sometimes within their own product line there will be a big difference.
That being said... Some people gravitate to a driver type based on good experiences, so it's definitely something to include in the buying decision.
Hi
Very interesting comparisions, thank you.
In order for me to place the characteristics of the Kii, Linkwitz, and Nxtreeme, can you compare with B&W 802 D or D2 or D3 or D4. I have the D3 now.
Regards
Dag
Hey man - love your channel. I actually have a similar rig. I am finishing out a NX-treme system with giant OB bass arrays (2 towers, 6 drivers each, about the same height as the Xtremes) and am backing them with an SHD. I also use dual RELs in another system with Wilson Sabrinas. I have another SHD in another system.
I have been finding that the SHDs are actually limiting factors pretty badly where I am using them. I have been getting better detail with Chord in some experiments.
I would love to hear what you think if you try audiolens via Roon or HQplayer and a more traditional high end DAC. You are obviously attuned to DSP itself, so would love your thoughts when you move that elsewhere in the chain than the DAC.
Thanks! I've used $15k Lampizator DACs and Benchmark DACs, Wadia, and others I can't even remember as well as big time preamps from ARC, CJ, Etc. The SHD is as good or better in terms of transparency and neutrality which is all I want from a DAC and preamp.
If Dirac or the other settings aren't done correctly, then the SHD could be blamed for issues or if you want a "flavor" from a DAC and preamp.
Everything in the SHD measures state of the art, and while that doesn't guarantee better sound, it objectively tells you that it is not likely the equipment doing anything bad, but maybe a flavor/taste/implemention issue.
I've also used HQplayer with Roon, but not Audiolense yet. I should have a video soon when I get to try it. I know it provides benefits because I was able to recognize DSP almost instantly with it, so I suspect it is very similar to Dirac which I use.
I have access to all the Chord stuff at my local dealer and used their DAC is some videos there, but I haven't been blown away as hearing anything better. I've used the million tap filter in HQplayer that is similar to what Chord does and somewhat preferred it to other filters, but it wasn't a deal breaker.
@@AudiophileJunkie I suspected you have done some solid gear. :)
Have you ever routed the output of the SHD through one of those DACs? I agree that the time-related capabilities in DIRAC are a big deal, and were not ones you could get with older DSP techniques. I was a naysayer to DSP until DIRAC for that reason.
But I increasingly suspect that the analog portion of the SHD is a limiting factor. I hear you on the measurements there too, but also agree that it is far from a rule that measuring well assures performance
I felt that the LX bass was tighter and more articulate then the kii's bass. Also the LX sounded a tad bit clearer or detailed in the midrange.
I have wondered what it would sound like if one combined a open baffle sub with a sealed sub? Would they cancel each other out or could they have the best of both worlds.
There are people that swear by mixing and matching subs. I would say that it could be a benefit as long as they are handling only very low frequencies. If they play too high and you are using them as a stereo pair, it might be more problematic. In that case, you'd have to run them mono, so you might have benefits and negatives too.
Just acquired a miniDSP SHD and will be rewatching your videos on using Dirac and getting the most out of that. I was wondering if you use it as your effective pre-amp and DAC or if you just pass digital output to another DAC. I see the chips are pretty decent AKM4490.
I use it as my DAC and preamp. I've had $15k DACs and big name preamps. This is more neutral and powerful.
@@AudiophileJunkie great to know. I will see how Dirac compares to ARC - I currently use an Anthem AVM60 as my preamp.
Cool...we took similar paths...I once had an AVM30 and used ARC. This should be FAR superior once you get the hang of it. In fact, I think I gave away the Anthem. Anthem is ok, but they use a volume control chip that I found was very poor in comparison to a good preamp or this miniDSP. Even without using DSP, you should notice a nice improvement.
@@AudiophileJunkie ARC Genesis is much better than the previous versions. I will be getting some needed cables to hook things together and work on setting it up over the weekend.
I am curious to know what you have in your miniDSP preference curve for Dirac. I did an initial setup matching the technique you used - bring down the levels so that Dirac is just doing cuts. I am lucky that my worst dip was only about 5dB, so have plenty of headroom. I wanted to get the slope from the lowest frequency to the 16K top. Is it an even slope? I did it by eyeball, but would love to try a few options now that I have clean measurements. The Linkwitz responds really well to Dirac BTW, so it is a good place for tweaking. I have dual subs and chose the Xover at 40Hz and that all seems to work very well right now. I may try a little higher, but see no need with my in room response.
I might do another video soon to show my curve and some more tips. However, I've covered a few things indirectly in prior videos that may help.
The first thing you want to do is play test tones and listen to them at your listening position. Don't even use an SPL meter. Just play each tone at the normal volume that you listen and see if any tones stick out as louder or softer than the others.
If you do hear anomalies, that's where you will use the EQ to "calibrate" the system to YOUR ears. That's one reason why I don't focus on sharing mine because it will be different for each person's ears and rooms. Nevertheless, I suspect you will find that a general curve like the Harman curve is more pleasing and even to your ears. Then you might have a few isolated corrections in specific areas where your listening position may have some room anomalies.
That's essentially what I did, but I'll try to do a video soon to show it in more detail. You never get it perfect the first try, but the fun is hearing the improvements as well as the areas where you still have room for improvement. Slowly, but surely, you'll get things dialed in and it will be very rewarding. Be sure to save the curve after each change or at least each day, so you can go back and forth easy. Good luck!
You might have it up somehwere but wondering about your thoughts on PAP and Spatial?
I covered spatial in a.tri-comparison with magico and acora. Also, I have show reports from their room as well as PAP.
I like Spatial slightly better but it all depends on various things.
Why not buy the Linkwitx DIY and make a building project out of it like you did with the gr research?!?! I’m sure a lot of people would love to see that ;-)
That's not something I'm in the mood to repeat any time soon... It was a ton of work :)
@@AudiophileJunkie it was worth a try ;-))
Which driver did the Linkwitz have for midrange? There is a classic carbon weave and a new very expensive magnesium one. That pro build is much nicer than my amateur one.
It's a brand new driver by Seas. I don't think he disclosed the model number or if it's a proprietary build, but maybe the website has more info on it.
I can ask next time I talk to him.
@@AudiophileJunkie I think that is the magnesium driver. It’s supposed to be good but very pricey. It also requires a revision of the ASP active crossover
SEAS W22EX001 I believe
Please when are you going to compare dsp
It may be awhile. I'm way backed up on content right now.
Where are the audio clips?
Check out the videos released just before this video. There's one for the Kii just released on Monday and the Linkwitz a few days prior to that.