Passive vs. active with KEF, Hegel & Kii
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- Camera: Olaf von Voss | Editor: Jana Dagdagan
A high-end passive loudspeaker system vs. a high-end active loudspeaker system? We compare the previously reviewed Kii Three system to the KEF Reference 1 loudspeaker powered by a Hegel H390 integrated amplifier.
KEF Reference 1 (€7500/pair)) w/ stands (€1200):
us.kef.com/ref...
Hegel H390 (€5900):
www.hegel.com/...
AudioQuest Rocket 88:
www.audioquest...
Kii Three loudspeaker system w/ stands & Kii Remote (€15,000):
www.kiiaudio.com/
darko.audio/20...
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Also featured in this video...
Hegel H590 (€10,000):
www.hegel.com/...
darko.audio/20...
Hegel H190 (€3600):
www.hegel.com/...
darko.audio/20...
Bluesound Node 2 (~€500):
www.bluesound....
darko.audio/20...
ELAC Navis ARB-51 (€2000/pair):
www.elac.com/p...
darko.audio/20...
ELAC Uni-Fi UB5 Slim (€500/pair):
www.elac.com/p...
darko.audio/20...
KEF LS50 Wireless (€2300/pair):
us.kef.com/ls5...
darko.audio/20...
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Playlists…
Spotify:
open.spotify.c...
Tidal:
tidal.com/brow...
Qobuz:
play.qobuz.com...
#audiophile #highendaudio #loudspeakers
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Darko.Audio is a web magazine covering new and exciting developments in the audio world and we aren’t afraid of indie rock or techno.
Web: Darko.Audio
Instagram: / darkoaudio
Twitter: / darkoaudio
Facebook: / darkodotaudio
Backstory: darko.audio/2019/10/a-short-film-about-the-hegel-h390-kef-reference-1/
Hi john would you recommend budget tannoy speakers?
love the fact that you trash 'musical' or 'musicality' in this review the other one ive noticed gets a lot of talk is 'speed' of an amp surely thats got more to do with timing clock and synergy between the source and the amp
In terms of judging soundstage, I hope you didn’t have the speakers in such different locations as on the video?
You never ever get wrong with KEF's .
So pure , so natural , clean , clear sound , that I can listen for long long hours without any fatigue .
So with a 400USD Elac Unify UB5. Amazing natural and balanced sound.
ATC actives sound simultaneously relaxing and resolving. They are the best actives I’ve ever heard.
try Steinway & Lyngdorf. DSP is a step up from ATC performance.
John, you’ve outdone yourself!
Thanks, Steve. That means a lot coming from you!
@@DarkoAudio John, would be great if you upload a video every Wednesday when Steve takes the day off. Good stuff guys!
Great review John; very fair, very balanced and very real world. As an active yet also passive speaker owner, I would offer the following thoughts.
Anything I've ever researched and read as regards the electrical and acoustic engineering of a loudspeaker, from manufacturers that make both - i.e. the exact same speaker but in either a passive or active version - for example ATC - clearly states the technical advantages of active operation over passive as regards sound quality.
Speakers such as the Kii's are designed to deal with the speaker/room interface in a way that would be exceptionally difficult with a passive system.
I would respectfully argue that whilst a passive system suits audiophiles better, because they can mix and match to their hearts content, that active systems are much more likely to appeal to music lovers, rather than gear heads for whom the mixing and playing about with kit is the focus and the hobby, rather than actually listening to the music, other than as something of a sideline,, mainly to work out what the kit is doing with the music.
I think your review also clarified my own thinking as to why I made the jump to an fully active system a few years ago, after having owned a variety of passive so called 'high end' systems, which, whilst I enjoyed them, tended to take my focus away from the music and towards the kit with the attendant audiophile faffing about with it, tuning, tweaking, looking for the next audio 'fix' with different cables etc.
What audiophiles see as a disadvantage with a 'fixed' active solution where they can't mix and match easily, is to me, a classical musician, a very large advantage.
It relieves me of the tedium, as an amateur, and recovered audiophile, of having to shop at retail emporiums, dealing with other well meaning enthusiasts/amateurs and salespeople with an agenda to sell no matter what, trying to mix and match gear so as to hopefully provide a solution that is greater than the sum of the parts.
Unfortunately, as I do not have a PhD in acoustics, or audio engineering, and nor do I have access to thousands of dollars of test equipment, or acoustics and anechoic chambers, buying a passive system at a retail level is very much a turkey shoot, where you hope for the best possible result for your money, but with no real certainty.
With an active speaker system, you basically only have to listen, and as I did, compare the sound to that of real, natural acoustic instruments; is the reproduction authentic and real to me, the listener who plays those instruments and is intimately familiar with them, or not?
I know the whole system has been thoroughly designed and engineered by the true experts in the field of acoustics and audio engineering, leaving it simply down to me as a classical musician to decide if I like the result or not, with no further tweaking and worrying about possible kit permutations via different cables, stands, racks, and all the attendant audiophile buying angst required.
For me personally, having been through the whole audiophile approach to system building with passive separates systems over the years, active systems are not only better overall in my experience on a performance for money basis, but the buying and ownership experience and level of overall satisfaction in the longer term very much justifies the greater upfront cost, which is perhaps the only real disadvantage of active systems in my experience, making them on a value for money and outright performance grounds eminently suited to the buyer who is a true music lover, and less of an audiophile hobbyist with an interest mainly in the kit and the tweaking thereof.
Please note I have no wish to denigrate passive systems, or those who buy them, or the mix and match hobby; i"ve been there and done that, and found it a lot of fun, if at times frustrating and expensive.
But for me, active is the future, and I'd argue that for many following in the steps of their baby boomer predecessors, it's likely to be their choice as well, as it integrates Hi End audio, with a neatness and lack of clutter that will suit many of todays younger buyers on both aesthetic and space grounds into the performance bargain.
A wonderful comment that really advances the conversation in a thoughtful manner. Thank you. As someone who has been very vocal with the very points you've made over the past couple of years, I don't disagree with anything you've said. The SQ advantages of actives are legion and in this video case, the Kii pulls off stuff with the low end that would be a physical impossibility with the passive system. That said, the KEF/Hegel gives us what I think is a smoother top end that makes it easier to listen to for longer periods. Ergo: not all actives are better in ALL audible respects.
@@DarkoAudio Thank you for your kind words John. I agree with your thoughts in that not all actives are necessarily better in ALL audible respects than passive speakers - certainly that's been my experience with the passive and active speakers that I own.
How would you rate the ATC scm 40 actives in relation to how the amplifiers and active crossover has been integrated into the design compared to the design and sound of the passive version of the same speaker, the scm 40?
I feel like passives are like Samsung phones, more customizable and “open source” while actives are more like iPhones with less customization but have an easy to use interface and feel more polished. Active speakers tend to have components that work well with each other already and deliver a polished product without having to tinker too much but the lack of customization makes it less fun and less rewarding.
You’re right about us younger generations preferring something that’s more plug and play and more aesthetically pleasing with less wires. Just a different era. Today it’s about video quality > sound quality so most of us are happy with any upgrade over our phone speakers and don’t really know what we’re missing because we’ve never heard it whereas having quality audio was much more of a must have back then so having knowledge on mixing and matching audio gear to your liking was a must.
@@PlayshotKalo Somehow I would more tend to think that actives would be more "open". You - as the guy hearing music with it - could easily change the tonality with a few clicks. An armada of DSPs is inside an active system - and you could easily change the crossovers and shift the spectrum abit here and there. This is completely impossible in a passive speaker without ripping the crossover apart. If it is needed? I hope not if the designer did a good job.
I think in the future stuff like Dirac will be also included more in the "stereophile" world. Way easier with the more digital enabled DSP crossover boards of active speakers. Room correction will not do magic, but could help to get rid of hard to fight room issues. Now it is only inside a very few Stereo amps (NAD) - but many Subwoofer already do their own room corrections already.
Totally into active speakers now over passive ones, based on my own studio experiences. I now use Focal Monitors, and the quality is the best I have ever heard.
If you're starting from zero, yes! But note that DSP speakers are always a little cheating since they are corrected by FIR filters. A passive speaker getting linear frequency response, low bass extensions, low distortion AND having a smooth disperision without any active parts? Now that's impressive.
I own a pair of Kii Three and they are by far the best speaker I have ever had!!! Before them I had great speaker from B&W (801!), Avalon, Martin Logan, ME-Geithain, Manger, KEF. Nothing came even close to the Kii Three.
Anyway - I think I know what people mean when they say the Kii's are not the speaker that you want to relax to music. I had the same experience, but I found a simple fix for that. Simply angle them away(!) from the middle by ~15°. Instead of positioning them straight forward or even angle them towards you - do the opposite and let them face toward the outside, away from you! That takes all the harshness away and creates a sound stage of epic propositions, while still maintaining a pinpoint accuracy. If you listen to them in the dark, they don’t play music any longer the paint picture made from sound.
So you toe them OUT slightly? :-0
@@DarkoAudio Correct. You have to give it a try. This slight adjustment make quite a difference. Greeting from Baden.
@@DarkoAudio Would be great if you could try this tip and let us know your opinion of how it affects the sound. I've been seriously considering the Kii's so really appreciate this video.
I have just purchased a pair of Kef Ref 1s and can confirm that you are spot on with your comments and impressions of this speaker. Thank you John I am extremely happy with these speakers. Man they are heavy!
The best 'on the money' review I've seen of active versus passive loudspeakers. Congrats on an excellent vid. P
Regarding the wooly/loose low bass response of the KEF/Hegal combined with your room's shape. GIK Acoustics SCOPUS TUNED MEMBRANE (T40) BASS TRAP targets bass frequencies from 30Hz - 60Hz. A few of these placed at key locations in the room would likely tame the resonant issues with your room's specific dimensions and long bass decay (maybe combined with a couple other broadband bass traps as well in corners or some soffit mounted bass traps). I would consider inviting a professional acoustician over to measure your room decay and response - this would be immensely helpful in determining what kind of traps to use and where to place them for greatest impact. ANY system, passive or active, would benefit from an "analog" acoustics upgrade - a passive system will sound tighter and an active system will apply less DSP correction (perhaps sounding less processed/digital?). Maybe a future video around room acoustics - before and after measurements along with subjective personal observations... ^_^
Your sound quality is first class never heard better at UA-cam. Congratulations
See Darko, click immediately!! Love all you do. Thanks as always.
Great review!! the difference you describe here is kinda like between what is needed for pro audio vs home/enjoyment listening.. so the Kii does it’s job perfectly!! It just so happens lots of audiophiles love it too.. they are still the best think I heard under 50k!
Kef Q350 + Onkyo 9010(dac) user here. Im enjoying the review. Good footage + review !
I know this is very much a high end channel which I definitely can't afford but I still enjoy watching & listening to what you have to say. I recently jumped onto the Active bandwagon but at about 1/10th of the cost you are suggesting with a pair of Edifier S3000Pro's. I know they'll not be in the same league as the kit you are showing us here but I don't believe they'll only be within 10% of your suggestions, maybe 60, 70 or even 80% which to my late 60's ears which have suffered years of abuse around construction sites & such can only decode so much anyway. If I could afford the Kef's I'd probably buy em, but would I gain much, I doubt it. Cheers & Keep up the great vids. 👍
Thanks, very interesting speakers. I noticed that it's got RCA and balanced input from DAC as well as Bluetooth. How do you listen to music?
Wise move. Unless you're really wanting to go for some insane setup, I've seen a lot of good reviews for those S3000's.
I'll likely never buy either system, but I love the channel and videos. The best audiophile channel period. Thanks!
I can not listen to the Kii longer then half an hour, they make me "nervous". I discovered this effect with Class D Amplification in general. That`s why I had to sell my Gato DIA 250. My personal conclusion is and was, that you need to be good with class D amplification. I discoverd I am not, so most actives do not work for me. Besides that the Kii are amazing, but I am more happiy with my Hegel Amp and Koaxial Speakers. Great Video and thanks for the hint (O.Rang)!
Well... In studio monitors, where the usual are active loudspeakers, class A/B internal amplification is the norm and no longer just one speaker making all the filtering, DSP, eq and so forth, and the other one acting as a "slave", all aspects contrary to what has become the mainstream for "domestic" active speakers. They sound, in my opinion, great but they require true knowledge to adjust the parameters if you want a really good sound.
Most modern domestic active speakers (no matter the price point) have been designed with a lot of compromises to be "convenient" for the non specialiced customer.
Class D amplification, on the other hand, is still in its beginnings unless you're decided to spend a fortune. For this wealthy niche of public, there are a bunch of brands ready to sell really good class D stuff.
Benjamin. I love your choice of words and it communicates to me -"nervous" -Great!
That's exactly the type of sound I try to avoid. I prefer relaxing while listening to music instead of twitching.
@@adotopp1865 welcome. Thx
@@venturarodriguezvallejo9777 Yeah, i am still looking into electrcompaniet ec living to have a small system besides my main system , although they are not studio speaker's, but class a/b. Any other recommendations? I am curious.
That was great. I have not heard the new KEF Reference series yet, but I own the predecessor (KEF Reference 201/2) since 2009 -- hooked up to a smaller Accuphase amplifier. I have always loved the "majesty" -- to use your words -- of that pairing. Recently, when I visited Max Schlundt in the stilwerk and saw the Kii there, I thought to myself: Probably, if I was in the market today, that would be my choice. Now, after your video, I am not so sure anymore. That was super helpful and entertaining and great consumer advice -- all at the same time. Thanks, John!
After living with full DALI Callisto system in white for a few months now, I have to say I found what I was looking for both in sound (explained in a review on this channel) and convenience. Yes, what i realised is I love them even when they're turned off. It freed up so much space compared to all the components and cables I had before and it complements the room beautifully.
Great, great video! I learned a lot. I thought the Kii would take the Kef down. Just love the fit and finish of the Kii. They look the part.
Honestly no one does reviews like this chan. Kudos
Good job, John Darko! Now, please, could you do the same thing at the $1,000 price point? 😎
Adam audio T8V, DAC SMSL SU-8 = $930 Attached to a computer or other digital source. I get a superb sound stage with almost touchable instruments.
Ive had musical fidelity 308 amp and quad electrostatic speakers in the past, and in my opinion, can always beat ANY speaker with a cone at any price. Therefore to buy an expensive speaker with cones is a fools game. I find the ribbon tweeter of the T8Vs quite refined and easy to listen to. The dac is also a wonderful thing.Very close to my Audiolab M Dac in quality.
I'm very late to this video, but this is really an excellent one, and no surprise as you are the king of audio reviewers. Just a really interesting idea as I've realized the same thing very recently, that a KEF LS50 Wireless 2 with a KC62 sub is a massively better value if you want to stream music than a passive/amp/streamer system. But interesting to try out the mid/high end as well with the reference KEF's which I can only dream about and see if this still holds. But I also have to thank you for introducing me to Orang. I'm a huge fan but I was totally unaware that Talk Talk had a side-project. It is stunningly good so have to thank you for this.
I think, for some, one of the great joys of this hobby is building, changing, comparing...systems! So that we can learn, grow, and enjoy the music we love in new/unique ways.
So when you get the magical 'all-in-one' box, you lose all of the above. Yeah... it may be more 'efficient' (what ever the hell that means when you are spending $15k on a system...), but the fun of the game is lost. swapping cables, amps, sources, speakers etc etc etc IS the hobby.
Gear would be a bigger part of your hobby, listening to music more often would be a bigger part of some folks. Like me. The Navis allow me to swap some gear (dac, streamer, pre, tt & cartridge) but less often and is best bang for buck in the price range because vinyl is expensive as all get out now. :)
@@supersonicboy75 I think even if you gave us 100k Reference system within a day are fingers would be itching and by a week we would all be tinkering. Just cant help it ,its in the blood.
I whole heartily agree, with the fun of swapping components, besides I also have the fun of recycling my amps into different rooms
Really dig the simplification and mood of your videos. Thanks
I really like this review even though it is not in my budget range. I suggest a series of active vs passive reviews at different price points. Thanks for the great reviews!
IK Multimedia MTM trumps everything in the low budget category, because of the DSP section.
I think that the problem with going fully active is that you slightly box yourself into a corner flexibility wise, even if they are really good, you are stuck with them. Due to space restrictions I went from Meridian DSP5200SE to NAD M22v2 Power and M12 Pre with Totem Signature One. I was able to fine tune the system with cables and know that I can swap out speakers if I move to a bigger room, and I don't regret at all my move, It's a great sounding system to my ears, smooth yet super emotive. This was after me being convinced that "active is the was forward" previously.
agreed, and the issue with actives is how long are those amps really going to last? how bad is the warranty claim process if you should have any issues with them? This is why it's better just to run some cheap active speakers, then when ready, make the jump to some nice passives + dedicated separate amps (a giant stack of dedicated mono amps to each channel! as each dedicated amp has it's own power supply).
Bitteschön, my pleasure. Sehr gutes und hilfreiches Video. Danke.
The best in the review business, hands down.
Until I heard aluminium....
I prefer building the front end systems with passive speakers , And having the ability to buy and sale or trade up many different speakers that all have their own unique sound signature .
mix&match is a never ending hobby. buying decent DSP actives is the right tool for a purpose. each on his own.
Great video, great playlist and balanced views as always. Hands down my favorite high-end audio channel. By far.
For a cheep setup that’s actually good I’d recommend what is in my setup so...
•pro-ject primary e
•q acoustics concept 20
•q acoustics 2070si
•denon dm41dab
•Pro-Ject phono box e
•qed proformence audio 40 rca cables
•chord clearway speaker cable
•acatama apollo cyclone
•Atacama Eris
Hi John, Very nice review and my three cents would be that on the Kii Controller, you have the option of adjusting the EQ of the speaker. So, if your room or personal taste is that if you want more or less bass, or more or less treble energy from the speaker, you can choose not only the amount of cut or boost, but also the frequency point where the EQ adjustment is made. And secondly, with more people using digital files either on a music server or via a streamer, the simplicity of the Kii 'system' is a winning point for many listeners. Finally for many, they have no desire to mix or match cables and amps and speakers, but just make one purchase, then they are done. They want a speaker which can sit close to the room boundaries and work extremely well in that position.
Absolutely right: not every audiophile wants a system with which they can tinker. That's part of the Kii's appeal.
What a pleasant, informative presentation! Comparison is the best way to convey, and then more comparison. Thabk you for helping us see the bigger picture. Really enjoyed this video!
Bravo JD ! An exceptional concept and coverage in this video on active vs. passive - - audiophiles have an interesting decision to make on "the best bang for the buck" sound with the compelling options now available.
I don't get it, why in the comment section every body boast about there personal gears, "I have this", "I have that", "I'm happy wih this", "this is better that that", why nobody is analysing and questioning the informations they get from the video?
Cos that's what's important to most "audiophiles". Not music, but arguing about equipment which, for the most part, they don't actually understand, rather than actually enjoying music. Dick waving contests over what costs the most, and heavily biased cork-sniffing descriptions of their emotional state as "analysis" of sound.
@ actually if you had read the comments instead of just knee-jerk, cut-and-paste trolling. the commenters that are comparing gear are comparing much cheaper gear.
Why wouldn’t people share this information. You are looking at a video comparing monstrously expensive gear in a niche hobby, anyone looking at this will be equally passionate about the hobby, and people like to share their own gear and personal experiences with the hobby they enjoy, engagement with the video’s topic outside of active vs passive speakers is difficult given the 15K price tag of each set of gear. Therefore most people will defer to to cheaper comparisons, which many feel is interesting.
The comments saying what they have help us pick with future choices. They’re far more useful than this comment
There is actually an expectation, when discussing audio performance, that the poster share what they have as a personal reference. It helps readers know not only what is being compared, but what options exist.
I understand it could seem tedious to some, but I appreciate it.
You real have a knack for this John -- a real world comparison with real world easily understandable language. Oh I'm sure it's a lot of hard work it seems like you "job" is really your "hobby/passion". I'm kind of envious myself.
Very nice and fascinating review and comparison as always by the way. However ... looking at Kii Three specs i see a freq. response extended from 30Hz to 25kHz and, what impresses me most, within +/- 0,5dB !!! I think that the Kef has no chance to give back 30Hz at the same level of the midrange ... maybe i am wrong but i guess the Kii bass response is something that must be experienced to be fully understood. Really impressive achievement for a speaker of that size. Amazing.
Very cool review, thanks for the great thoughs and the interesting comparison. I do prefer passive setups, because it gives me the biggest flexibility to exchange individual components and to mix and match. I think, this is also the interesting part of my hobby: Listening to music on one side and playing around with technology and HiFi components on the other side. Aren't we all kids?
Great video. Both concepts definitely have their merits. I have one of each in my home and enjoy them both very much. Although the active system is of a higher level and gives me a representation that is absolutely jaw dropping. DEQX HDP5, Hypex amps and DIY speakers that are a cross between an Eidolon (shape) and Isis (units). That all combined with a 21" open baffle sub woofer with it's own Hypex amp and DSP. I have become addicted to the manageability (what a word) of the active system and the way it plays flawlessly with great impact and finesse.
First video that I see on the channel and your great man and not boring
Hegel H190 is my choice! Marvelous sound for 150 watts: exactly what i need.
Gerne geschehen war wieder Mal eine Freude einen neuen Abschnitt hier im dunklen Schweden zu schauen. Versüßt einem die Dunkelheit.
Sit back and listen, always a good plan. No listening fatigue is key. And will keep me more happy in the long run. I own von Schweikert Unifield One speakers and are of the same kind like the KEF, also coaxial design.
Been following these videos and just noticed I never subscribed so I did.
very nice work John, thank you for your great videos, your comments are spot on
The KEF is not a real competitor to the Kii Three-- and NOT just because it is passive. Actually, that is many respects is the least of the difference. The Kii Three, much like the Dutch and Dutch 8C is designed to allow you to make the room substantially "disappear" ,which is why you can place it almost anywhere and make it work. Not at all so with any of the KEF's, and actually, the KEF's are highly room placement, size and relative positioning dependent.
John, thank you for an interesting and informative review. I take from your comparison, that you find the KEF/Hegel combination more relaxing to listen to than the compared active speakers. I listen to music to relax mainly, but it can also be stimulating. Even so, I would not be able to listen for long, to a system which, as you say, has the listener sitting on the seat edge. Since you also seem to prefer the sound from the KEF/Hegel system it seems to me that this is a clear winner for you, and I am convinced, for me. The other clear advantage of the component system is the opportunity to try, in the future, alternative amplifiers with the speakers and vice versa. Each system can have advantages for people with different tastes in sound reproduction, and living space. However it is, to me, the music reproduction quality and its effect on the human spirit which ultimately is the better choice.
You review was exactly what i was looking for. Hegel 390 paired with the Kef Reference 1 I had a feeling they would be a match made in heaven. I didn't know that Kef was using Hegel amps in there demos.. And the kii 3 . all on a very short list of mine in fact you nailed it these are my list!
I really enjoy your description of the differences and tradeoffs. Well done.
Nice comparison and I can Identify myself as one of those that went to the KEF LS50W instead of the KEF R300 (good deal at the time) + system, due to the lack of experience of putting together everything and lack of space.
I've never met an active speaker that wasn't all up in your face about it. I actually use a pair of KEF Reference 1's nearfield to edit video on, and I'm happy as a clam. Wouldn't go back to actives...they're all too hard. With the Ref 1's in a treated and corrected room I can hear everything and mix all day without getting burned out. With active anything (and I've owned a bunch and tried even more) there are only so many hours I can have them coming at my skull before they put me in that "wired but tired" zone...and that's an awful place to be.
'Special Request'..likey likey . The guy is a genius. Can't wait for his new record. Going active is a big commitment I think. You really need to love the sound of a specific speaker to go down that route. Space saving I can understand but for me it takes the fun out of being an audiophile.
I recently tried the Kiis, i run a KEF refetence system at home. You are dead on the money here, I was very surprised by how well the humble passive design matches up. Ofc it is a matter of preference, but it's hard to argue much more IMO.... an even playingfield per now. I do think that active speakers will take over at some point, but afaik companies like KEF are looking to take it quite slow. The next KEF active will be a bigger LS50.
Super interesting comments at 12.30, I've always been lead to believe the actives will always sound better than passives mainly because of the crossovers. I auditioned a pair of active ATC40's recently, I put in a few hours listening to my favourite tracks. I own a pair of passives (same model) with a Michi P5/S5 combo running them. Long story short my passives sounded a fair bit superior to the actives and I always thought it was just biased thinking because I love my equipment. Then I heard you say similar and I know you are right.
I have the KEF Reference 3 and I agree with the wide soundstage and refinement.
and your amp is ?
Michel Haineault Musical Fidelity AMS 35i (pure Class-A)
@@jayson1173 32 Watts is not enough - unless you listen quietly in the near-field and/or you hate bass control. I suggest trying a Coda CSIB / S12.5 / 30.5 depending on your budget.
eug3nius Have you heard the MF AMS 35i? I guess you have not.
Good one Mr. Darko
If I have to choose, I think that I would go by passive system
Of course .
Passive for me, i like building a system to my liking and not to what others think it should sound like.
every amp & speaker sound like something, depending on who made them.
Yep it’s just having multiple people have components they think sounds nice as everyone who designs components has a different idea of that :)
bitte sehr. Another enlightening one, thanks John and Olaf!
I have a Primaluna Classic amplifier with Monitor Audio RX8, love the sound of that combination, but if starting today I'll go for a active setup for the simplicity of that.
I cant imagine the audio world without your amazing interpretations. What a way you have of finding the truth without the need to trash on anyone's creations which isn't unique but you do it unusually well. Also this morning I saw the budget audio discussion video with master Gutenberg (another opinion my audio "life" requires) on the panel and thought I'd better force myself through such an important and for me relevant discussion = no need to force anything - Despite being in the raw with understandably no budget for pre and post treatments = I was entertained and informed both with the rich variety of experience and such a broud landscape of perspectives (as unfocused as many of the opinions were in regards to the intended direction of that wonderful discussion - most of them had merit) which could have been *utter rubbixh* (I'm a childish American sorry) with anyone else also brave enough to man that mic through that potential storm = you did a great job that I've come to expect from you, thank you and you seem to be rising to the top of this emerging new and higher than expected dry ground the swirling sea of new technogy, ideas, and ultimately trends are settling down to finaly reveal - keep going sir!
PS - I was going to tone down the flourish after readng my content but I thought why? It's honest and it's in the home of audiophiles = they're thoroughly familiar with heavy colored commontary. Peace.
Excellent review John. Now if I win the lottery I might sell my old Kef and buy this reference 1 and the Hegel.
I intend to stay traditional, but hearing outright near worship of B&W's active speakers. People are blown away
A great and informative review as usual, so good I've watched it three times. I would be the kind of person who wants to sit back and enjoy the music, so I would prefer the Hegel/ KEF system. I think the Kii setup would give me fatigue after a while. Saying that I fully get the Active system rout for many who just want a no fuss set up and can't be bothered with searching for their ideal sound by visiting many hifi stores. I on the other hand enjoy that search, even though it can be daunting at times. What I love about your reviews is it's like your speaking to me directly and on a more personal level. Keep up the excellent work.
Smashed it once again Mr D. Diolch yn fawr.
As always a very well done analysis but there is one "elephant in the room" in my view when it comes to active vs passive, it's service / repair. When I bought my KEF active speakers a few years ago, as an engineer, I was thrilled that I knew there was an amplifier in each unit that was perfectly matched to the speakers; after all the manufacturer knew what would work best with its speaker units and even possibly include some feedback mechanisms into the circuitry. That was all great until my left speaker volume started to go down slowly and after a year and, of course after the warranty expired, went completely dead. KEF service provided no help at all even when I simply asked for any location in North America to have it fixed for a fee. Nothing not even a hint of an option, and now I have two speakers and two built-in amps that have to end up in the dumpster because one can't be "fixed". In a passive system, one could hope that at least the speakers could be salvageable even if the amp had to be scrapped (though my neighbor has a Quad Amp from the 1970's that still works fine). I think I've learned my lesson about speaker manufacturers that are not really electronic amplifier vendors and do not understand that power systems do fail and may need servicing. Until I see active speakers with modular (i.e. easily removable and fixable amplifiers) designs as well as options to eventually use them as passive units, I'll steer away from spending thousands of dollars on units with dubious life expectancy.
If I would be willing to build a listening room I'd also be willing to bring in a 15K euro sound system. I's nice to see how the other half lives. Keep uptake good work John.
I enjoy your podcasts and always look forward to new reviews.
Always enjoy your thoughtful takes and especially the music recommendations. Mojave 3 is new to me and spectacular. With great appreciation from San Diego.
What a great video...!!! Thank you... I-ve wanted a comment (to say the least) abut the KEF's for quite some time now...
I'm liking this guy - his room is clean and neat (Steve G. take note!), he keeps things factual, concise and offers a balanced viewpoint. Good presentation and camera work too.
I have heard some great passive systems... but no matter how glorious an amp/speaker set-up one can design, or afford, plonking a network of resistors, capacitors and inductors (a traditional, passive crossover) between them does not bode well for either component, particularly the amplifier.
Unfortunately, almost all active system reviews are based on speakers with built-in amps (which I will term 'inboard') - pretty much the worst place to put an amplifier, due to microphony, space and heat (and all too often Class D amplifier design). A lot of cheap, active monitors employ an inferior, analogue crossover after the dac, so only one, two-channel (stereo) dac is required. The really budget 'active' monitors aren't even active, they have one stereo amp in one (master) speaker with passive crossovers, and a second 'slave' speaker with no electronics at all - the reason they are termed active is that they are self-powered i.e. the user doesn't need to buy an amplifier. A 'proper', digital, three-way, active system requires a six-channel digital xover, then a six channel dac (or three stereo dacs) and six channels of amplification.
Everything being equal, which is rarely the case, an active system, in my experience, will sound more dynamic, 'faster', cleaner, have tighter bass (the dedicated bass amp is connected directly to the bass driver, with improved current flow and better electrical damping) with improved low-level resolution across the entire audio spectrum. If one has become used to a less insightful, ‘laid-back’ sound, this can initially seem rather an 'forthright' presentation. Once you have enjoyed a high-end active system, however, there is rarely any going back! There are simply too many compromises with even the best passive set-up.
There are few audiophile 'outboard' active systems (more prevalent in the pro-audio industry), but the Sanders' Sound hybrid electrostatic/ transmission line with Sanders’ Magtech amps is a noteworthy example. PMC offer a good deal of their transmission line speakers in passive or outboard active, employing Bryston amplification which is highly regarded. Remember the active Linn Isobariks? I'm showing my age! They performed head and shoulders above the already good passive 'bariks - and that was with analogue active crossovers, but a Naim 'six-pack' of power amplifiers.
For those that like the component selection activity of audiophilia, an 'outboard', active system still allows this - you can even employ a beefy, transistor amp for the bass, and a valve amp for the midrange. You'll need a dsp (look on any pro-audio retailer for digital signal processor / speaker management / digital crossover - many have eight channels, so up to four-way) and you'll have to bypass the inefficient, blue pill, passive crossovers in any speaker - but wow!
Take the red pill my audio friends :)
Another insightful review - thanks to John & his team.
I saw a pair of LS50Ws for sale recently, second hand, the logic board having been replaced under warranty. Which is great, but of course my first thought was "what happens to your speakers if the logic board or some other highly specific component fails 20 years from now"? Perhaps the seller had been similarly spooked.
That's not to say actives are inherently bad, but I guess it highlights two different ways of purchasing speakers. One way is to see the speaker as a tool to fulfill a specific purpose (in which case if it fails outside of warranty you just get something else that fulfills the same requirements, more or less), and the other is to see the speaker as a specific experience you want to capture for the long term (like owning a muscle car or a vintage guitar - replacing it defeats the purpose).
I don't imagine the people buying Forte IIIs (for example) are doing it because it's the most practical tool for the job - they're doing it because they want that experience, now, and 20 years from now. I think that's a big part of why some people are against all-in-one actives - too many eggs in one baskef...err, basket.
My guy! Was gonna ask about the music itself! Glad I stuck until the end.
sehr gut Vergleichen und erklären. Good see we both struggle with the German! Really enjoy this vid.
Such a breath of fresh air.
As a side note, im going to assess that the more forward active system is likely better suited for movies than the more laid back passive Kef system.
Laid back =:less involving for movie playback.
Really enjoy listening to this blokes reviews too
Great review. Although am not sure amps with built in Dacs are really the future since a) Dac technology is changing relatively fast b) arguably the best Dacs for many people are R2R and these do not easily fit instead an amp case.
and what about future upgrades and new tech? harder to do inside an amp.
Fantastic episode! Thanks!
One thing to consider with an active system in my opinion is reliability. I have a pair of active Focal Solo 6 and have had repeated issues with them. I've had to send them in for repair once, and it wasn't easy trying to find someone to repair them. I ended up having to send them clear across the country and was without music for six weeks. Now one of them has developed a scratchy noise you can easily hear when no music is playing. I've read that lack of ventilation and higher operating temps may contribute to these types of reliability issues. This will more than likely be my last set of actives where the amp is inside the loudspeaker.....I would consider an active design that has all the electronics outside the speaker.
Hi John, love your vids, and you have actually encouraged me to explore not just digital audio with your “The DAC Index,” but have also encouraged me to listen to, and appreciate, electronic music. Up to this point in my life, I would have put quotes around the word “music” when it followed the word “electronic.” I do have an observation and also a suggestion of a request, if you will. The observation is that if one has an electrical/electronic malfunction with active speakers, one is at least temporarily toast, until the unit(s) can be sent off to be repaired (if, in fact, they could be). With the spotty build quality coming out of non-US builds, I have a great concern about this, and the many negative reviews about the KEF LS50 Wireless have kept me from purchasing a pair, new or used. Now comes that hint of a request. Could you ever consider grading equipment on reliability as well as sonic quality, ergonomics, economics, etc.? Perhaps a bridge too far, and you’re not the “Consumer Reports” of Audiophilia, after all, but I wonder how many frustrated audiophiles there are out there with glitchy / scratchy tube gear, etc., that could benefit from knowing how reliability a piece of kit is. Well, thanks for the dedication, the insights, the sharing of musical perspective, and the guidance. Long may you listen, work, and prosper! Cheers!
Lou
Hey Lou. How would I grade a product's reliability with a sample of one?
Instead of ls50w i got myself a kef r300, emotiva power amp A300 (really cheap with enough power) and a bluesound node2i. The cost is almost the same considering the r300 are on huge sale now. I am actually really pleased with the sound they put out. For my room I guess the sound would be the same, probably more detail with R300 than with LS50W since it's 3 way rather than 2 way. Since you mentioned other power amps you should try some of the emotiva's mono power amps which are not that expensive compared with hegel. I will do a listening session on Reference 1 with Hegel vs Emotiva vs Naim just to see how they compare in sound, since in price Hegel is the most expensive.
Something tells me the emotiva amp is going to last a lot longer than any plate amp stuck to the back of an active speaker. Emotiva is lightyears ahead on the value for the $ while retaining quality. I have their DC-1 for my computer to some cheap active speakers, but when I upgrade, it'll be a multi channel pre-amp such as an outlaw audio or emotiva to an emotiva dedicated amp type of setup. All XLR's too! none of this 2v rca crap.
the Hegel amplifier is a better sounding amplifier than what is used in the Kii .. different type of amplification , it does make a difference imo.. Something active speakers have not figured out yet, possibly due to room constraints within the speaker cabinet itself.
What’s the song @6:15 ? Answer: Lofive: Butterfly
as my old B&W 683s are in the process of dying, I'm looking for a new pair of speakers to match my tiny NAD C 316. This video really put me into a big depression. Got to save up all money and listen with headphones for a couple of (more) months now :'-(
Fantastic video and presentation. Engaging and very very professional. I’ve listened to the kef ls50 wireless at shows a lot. They are amazing, and I agree that you’d have to probably spend £10-£15k to really notice a difference. That said I’m a vinyl boy with VPI prime , moon amp and sexy sonas Fabre olympica iii
One of a kind comparison, keep it kicking!
Great video John. Love your attitude toward HiFi.
Very Nice comparison! This again Shows how the Hegel Amp changes the Game. And makes you re-think the Investment Point for the Amp & Cables rather than Speakers... Or both..Lots of Euros to spend! Why not look at a comparison in the 1000-1500€ price region (complete system active/passive)? Absolutely like the Channel. Please bring more of your ideas!
You can only get equal or beat the Kii(s with a passive speaker if you build one with the same or better controlled directivity . I highly suspect that both the Dutch & Ducth 8c and the Kii's are not fully 'constant directivity' over the whole frequency range (the tweeters being the suspect), so there's room for improvement yet ,but not a lot . You would have to build or buy a passive speaker with either a full range omni dispersion or a very intelligently designed dipole with a dipole tweeter . Still , you would lose a bit , cause the passive components in the X-over are stores of energy which negatively impact transient behaviour
Really enjoying your videos John... Even thought I'm not in the market for a new system at the moment. I stopped my upgrade path two years ago with a SuperUniti and Kudos X2 floorstands. But once in a while I am tempted by all the nice new 'toys'. Cheers.
Hi. I like the Kii speakers, a step up from Devialet Phantom Gold which is my main setup right now. Will have to save some money. Thanks for the review. By the way, I think you would like Enei, Kasra - Transmitter EP and perhapes also Francesco Bove - The Future :-)
Your vids have a nice mood and emotion to it👍
Thanks John, Olaf, and Jana. I have been waiting so long for the print hi-fi media to take on this issue of active+DSP vs passive systems. Your result is not what I expected, which was for the Kii to dominate due to its advanced architecture, larger driver area, and drivers direct coupled to their dedicated amps. To me the takeaway is the traditional architecture of amp driving passively crossed over speaker has in 2019 reached such a high level of refinement it cannot and should not be casually dismissed. As John noted a key is to be at a price point where designers have the resources to achieve that result. John standing by his observations that at lower price levels active pulls ahead tells me that inexpensive active crossovers do less musical harm than inexpensive passive crossover parts.
I agree that actives are the future. But what this investigation tells me is that no single active speaker is better *in every respect* than a similarly priced passive system.
I have no need for the Reference speakers but god damn, I love the way that colour scheme looks. If only they'd bring it to R Series.
Really good analogue with the reclining vs. edge of the seat!
Wow John! Great video. :)
Hi John, again another awesome video without all the hyped up BS that gets vomited at us from all directions
I would love to see you pair the Hegels with Dynaudios or even just do a review on the Dyns, I run a modest set up with the Hegel H390 with Dynaudio Excite X44 and Oppo BDP-93 and for me is a great set up but I'm always dreaming of upgrading one day when finances allow...
Anyways mate, keep up the great work.
Thanks, that's a nice comparison. As Steve Guttenberg noted. If you have active speakers you are stuck with that dsp/dac/amp. With passives, you can play around more. If one buys used, the financial losses shouldn't be great.
Yes but the trade-off on that inflexibility is better sound. All other things being equal, an active speaker will sound better than the same drivers in the same box with passive xover and outboard amplification. Digital actives also give us placement compensation and, in some, room agnosticism/correction. What's important for you might not be as important for someone else.
That final song is amazing.
Hi John The Kef Ref 1's sound excellent with the Hegel but I would use Nordost Cables with that set-up as it is an excellent combo. The Kef's work well with Nordost Cables as I use them on my Kef Ref 203's.
Would you consider doing.a video that highlights the importance of the listener discovering and defining their own preferences in the way the equipment "presents" audio? It seems obvious on its face but many people new to this hobby don't realize how critical it is. People new to this hobby are highly likely to assume their "inborn ear" is much more tolerant of the differing presentations than it actually is
I did KEF LS50W + Bluesound Node 2 and focal Sub Air. The sound is very clear and mid range coupled (with help of Sub).
I have set it up a Meter from the wall, and sound stage is so up scale.