History Primer 160: Dutch 1873 Revolvers Documentary
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
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Othais and Mae delve into the story of this classic. Complete with history, function, and live fire demonstration.
C&Rsenal presents its Primer series; covering the firearms of this historic conflict one at a time in honor of the centennial anniversary. Join us every other Tuesday!
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Ammunition data thanks to DrakeGmbH
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Animations by Bruno!
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Additional reading:
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Nederlandse Vuurwapens: Marine Mariniers en Marineluchtvaartdienst 1896-1942
Drs G. de Vries & Drs B.J. Martens
Nederlandse Vuurwapens: Landmacht en Luchtvaartafdeling 1895-1940
Drs G. de Vries & Drs B.J. Martens
The Dutch Luger
Bas J. Martens & Guus de Vries
Die Militärrevolver der Niederlande 1856 - 1940
H.E. Harder & W.A. Dreschler
Handleiding tot de Kennis van de inrigting en het Gebruik van Revolverpistolen
J.J. Bergansius
Snail Mail/Contact us at:
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One spring for the trigger, one spring for the sear, one spring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them.
“Heavy is good, heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work you can always hit them with it.” seems to reflect Othais' choice
That whole story of the politics surrounding the Dutch looking at semi-auto, then going for the 1873 "new" model because some old officer goes full fudd in parliament and then trying that weird double-contract procurement nonsense after having already established that nobody in the commercial market is going to want to invest in some archaic nonsense is just Dutch politics at its finest.
"Got to move at government speed" Othias (I forget the episode)
Ever heard of the ache conflict , no read up on it and you know why. learn the history and facts before making comments . a conflict that made the vietnam war a picknick on a sunday. Reliabilty and robustnes over mechanical isseus.
@@marcusfranconium3392 I know the history and the facts; I don't have a horse in this race though. To me it's mostly about how much Dutch politics still functions on trying to bean-count to the detriment of all else. It's a "the more things change, the more they stay the same" kind of observation.
@@DiggingForFacts I suggest to get some books on history and you will find out how wrong you are . .
@@marcusfranconium3392 If you have any particular titles to share I'd be happy to give them a look.
I think swapping cylinders became a thing after watching "Pale Rider" with Clint Eastwood carrying multiple cylinders on his gunbelt. I'm sure it was talked about before then, but after the movie everyone was talking of it and how cool it was and why they didn't do it in the past.
“You going to change those hand fitted cylinders or whistle dixie?”
Well, there is some evidence for it actually happening ( pony express, rangers and some other papers) but think it was a rare thing.. but pale rider made some really obsessed with it.
I believe two reasons people didn’t carry spare cylinders generally was was the cost associated with buying multiple cylinders. Combined with most people not needing to reload under pressure.
Back in the day the story went that the capacity of this revolver was '6 shots and a free throw', meaning that if you ran out you would have to chuck it at your foe.
it was so complicated that in order to throw the gun, they needed to devise some kind of separate multi-tool. So you had to stop get out the multi-tool from your holster and fit the tool to the revolver then and only then could you throw it....This lead to them not being thrown most of the time and the officer just chose to die to a bayonet or spear. All the writings from the period just said it was easier to choose death
It’s sad to think that the last major evolution in revolver technology happened in the late 1890s. Friend of mine recently got a new colt python and we were cleaning guns after a range trip together and I happened to put on a playlist I have of a bunch of C&Rsenal revolver videos and we kinda got distracted from cleaning when we both were sitting there (him with his new colt and I with my smith and Wesson N frame) comparing our revolver lock work to what we were seeing on the screen.
M73 would be a true upgrade to S&W's lock work. BOTR's Chap has an excellent video discussing the differences.
It should not be surprising that there isn't much innovation in a completely obsolete category of firearms.
@@anotherkenlon Modern inline muzzleloaders would the exception to the rule.
@@SlavicCelery in-line muzzleloaders are just percussion guns.
@@baneofbanes Yes, but that's the most significant lock action development for an obsolete category of firearms.
I've been waiting for a video about the Dutch revolvers, I haven't been able to find any before! And now it's here!
Your Avatar could not be more fitting for your Comment :D
Othias: "Don't look with your eyes."
Mae [without pause]: "Look with my heart?"
LMAO! Love you guys!
As a Dutch viewer, I'm happy to see an episode about this revolver!
Loving these old wheel gun episodes ...... missing when that thing were declared.
Thanks and also thanks for being on the Fudd Busters podcast
Just when I was looking for some good feature length firearm content. Thanks guys!
Another great Primer episode from an All Star team.
13:17 Both are correct. Petrus was his baptismal name and Pierre was his 'roepnaam' (the name that people commonly called him).
This length of content is great, at least your core audience is fine with the extensive format. I know I am.
On extraction. It is little known that there was a brief period when it was considered important for the infantry to be self sufficient in socks. All troops (of all ranks) were trained in knitting, and given equipment and a supply of wool (silk/wool blend for officers). No extractors were therefore needed for revolvers, as the cartridges were to be ejected with a tactical knitting needle (or "knitting pin" in some jurisdictions).
Not sure if you are on the level here but either way your comment is hilarious.
I always thought I didn't know guns very well because I couldn't identify revolver genealogy by sight, and then I met a coworker who actually owns some guns, and had to explain to him what 9mm parabellum was. I'm starting to think I just don't have enough gun-interested friends to have a reasonable frame of reference.
There's a lot of people who know some stuff about guns. But most of it is probably geared towards modern stuff..
Bruh, you're commenting on a C&Rsenal video which means you're already in the top 10%. Revolver genealogy is about as complicated as tax law (and to some people just as boring), give yourself a break!
On P Stevens, Petrus is the Latin version of Pierre. Petrus was also commonly used in Belgium and the Netherlands.
So it wouldn't be that odd for Pierre Stevens to commonly go by Petrus Stevens or vice versa depending on the specific context. So it may be that both are correct.
Ok straight from catching Othias on Fudd Busters, this drops on my birthday. Hell yeah.
Happy birthday
Happy birthday brother!
Again, thanks for this episode. Welcome to our country the Netherlands, the country of compromises. Enjoyed this episode a lot.
Almost 2 hours long, woo hoo thanks guys awesome informative content.
You have definitely cured me of the notion that revolvers are mechanically simple. Very interesting old wheel gun and good work as always!
Thanks for the upload. There is almost nonexistent info in the internet about the Dutch service revolvers,, other then Forgotten Weapons coverage on a Dutch "Riot-Control" revolver.
One spring for the trigger, , one spring for the hand one spring for the sear, one spring for the hammer, and one spring to rule them all...... my precious.....
Since you mentioned the eventual replacement of this revolver by the FN 1910/22, I just thought I'd say that I hope you will cover that design someday. The transformation of the 1910 into a service pistol for smaller and less-affluent militaries is an interesting story. Trivia: The Police Troops and Royal Military Constabulary actually carried six eight-round magazines, something unusual for the time. While we may think of the 9mm Short (.380 ACP), as a weak cartridge for military use, this was a 4 1/2 inch barrel and the cartridge was probably seen as a big improvement over the 9.4 revolver round. Combined with the 24-ounce weight of the 1922 and much better handling, it was a huge step forward from the 1873 family of revolvers.
Thanks for another interesting episode. I was fascinated by the "point, shoot and hit" aspects of the design. It reminded me of the time when I got to shoot my buddie's Webley No.5 Army Express and found how well that did the same for me.
Ahh... a 3am dutch revolver video. Perfection.
Yay! Every 1873 firearm is always a joy to learn about. It was a good year for guns.
"Who thinks grabbing a banana"
😂 rarely do I ever get as much enjoyment out of life.
Regarding that bit of the podcast at the end: I know several people who are/were Marketing Heads in some really big companies. Most of they are actually extreme introverts and very reserved. The reason they excel at their jobs is not so much their ability to feign or be friendly, but their abilities to find that one thread or two in every person that they can connect to and sincerely engage with, but it takes time to find them. Thus, they are quite awkward with people at first, but after a short time, they become very engaging as they latch onto those threads.
For a handgun for “self defense” in 1906 they should have gone to FN and bought 5,000-10,000 Browning 1900s. Cheap, available and a good number of the Dutch Parliament probably owned one so no arguments about function. Basically thats what they did after WW1 with the 1910/22.
Sure. But you have a century of hindsight, the decision makers at the time didn't.
There were both good and bad reasons to be hesitant about automatic pistols in that time.
In terms of good reasons, they were of somewhat questionable reliability (especially as militaries often had pretty poor quality ammo which was less of an issue in revolvers as an under or overpowered or split cartridge can just be ignored in a revolver.but may completely stop a semi-automatic) with very few pistols having really been put through the rigours of military use by this time.
In terms of less good reasons, these decisions were often made by geezers who rode into battle with single shot pistols and didn't even really trust revolvers yet.
And the somewhere in between of how much of a practical benefit is an automatic pistol over a revolver? If you need more than six rounds you are probably screwed anyway so the reloading advantage may not be much use in practice.
After WWI, you have seen tons of automatic pistols that faced atrocious conditions for years and performed admirably. And the Western Front was also possibly the pinnacle of the importance of the pistol in military service in the trenches with long, bolt action rifles and before widespread use of SMGs
@@88porpoiseSoldiers fire hundreds of rounds to get a single hit. Small arms are mostly about suppression and area denial, keeping the enemy away from yourself.
When shit hits the fan you want a sidearm with at least a single-nine uptime, that is, you want to be able to spend less than 10% of your time reloading, and 90% spewing lead. A double-stack pistol in some 9mm-ish cartridge is perfect for that.
@@WhenDoesTheVideoActuallyStart Not exactly a lot of options for that before WWI.
@@88porpoise What? There were dozens of different pistol designs competing for attention, and double-stack pistols were well known. It was not an issue of options, it was an issue of doctrine.
@@WhenDoesTheVideoActuallyStart The concept was known and widely used in rifles. But it wouldn't become common in pistols until post-WWII with the Hi-Power being notable for (and named after) its unusually large capacity of its double stack magazine.
35 years old and still basically the same huh? Gee, it would be weird if the Glock 17 had turned 36 this year, imagine that...
*Maybe not directly comparable given their historical context but that got me giggling.
Cool, I was looking for more info on these babies!
Comment for the algorithm gremlins. I need to be up in 3 hours, so the actual video watching will have to wait a bit... I am fully confident that it will not only be worth the wait, but worth the watch as well.
OAFC Obligatory Algorithm Feeding Comment I always post that just to up the ALGO whenever I have nothing to say.
Since it points so well can you lend it to Ian for a BUG match?
The way the muzzle was shaking when Mae was firing the Dutch revolvers must have a trigger pull like a a Russian Nagant.
I love this episode. This revolver emphasizes every aspect I love about this channel. Revolver episodes (they’re my favorite), interesting mechanics, curious design decisions, political nonsense, and genuine love for the guns.
At 18:84 you said they served in a neutral army that is not totaly correct as the dutch army , marechaussee and KNILL where in volved in quite a long conflict in the dutch indies. most notable the Ache war a conflict that lasted the better part of 50 years . quite a long and bloody battle fought mostly in guerilla style tropical conditions. .
Yes, and it may be noteworthy to mention that this revolver proved very effective, so much for all those who ridicule its cartridge. An M1873 (or a rifle/carbine) combined with a klewang was more than adequate to handle our (not so) little Jihadi problem back then.
With these oddball revolvers, I am slowly falling for them more than for automatics
what a great in depth explanation of the history and technical development. especially impressed by the animations. subscribed imediately.
Dutch arms procurement 100+ years ago is like German arms procurement now.
Germany has an army? When was the last time they left the barracks? I have never seen a German soldier in person or on tv, I don't believe they actually exist.
For once I couldn't concentrate on the details of the gun, because I couldn't stop wondering about the guy who partied himself to death in France. Is there a channel called "Wild Benders of History" where I can learn more?
Wait, why did O's hat become a lighter shade of grey? usually it's dark grey, is this a new hat? Is it the lighting? Was this edited in post? I have so many questions...
I like the way Mae has coined a new term for pistol recoil - " Flippability" !
So wait let me get this straight. A formal military, was still building and issuing a firearm designed in 1873, that had no ejector, no manual rebound, had a small bore low velocity black powder cartridge, in 1910. On the eve that the US is adopting the 1911 and after Germany adopted the 1904 and 1908 Lugers. 🤦♂️
Great episode. One thing to consider in the ergonomics of these guns is that the Netherlands is home to the tallest people on earth. With that being said it might be fair to extrapolate that to including that Dutch people might also have larger hands being able to grip that larger frame more easily. Oh ...... and yeah you are truly managing to mangle the Dutch pronunciations, but kudos on your efforts.
Very well done. Have you considered including a video on the Dutch police revolvers? They had some very interesting designs. One was designed so that the first shot should be a blank, the second a tear gas round, then the last three shots would be live. This revolver had a numbered cylinder and a big hook safety on the side to keep the sequence in order. Then there was the revolver with the hidden safety. All in 9.4 Dutch caliber.
Episode 160: Othais and Mae go Dutch
This, the Reichs Revolver and any revolver w/o attached ejector..... PURE MILSPEC......
The original figure drawings in this episode are amazing! Too bad you faded though them so quickly. I guess I’ll have to go back and pause the images for review. Great content C&Rsenal! Keep it coming!
“With my heart?”
Channeling some Roland Deschain, eh?
I also love the neutral powers odd balls. It’s interesting and those make for a better story.
A simpler way to remove the sideplate on the smaller 73 is to remove the grip first and then go under the grip and pry from there
No music for shooting? Sad day.
You really dont want to hear Dutch Music... ;-)
Perfect timing, I’m about to pick up a Dutch East Indies 1891 contract. Says 1895 on side though. Can’t wait for the East Indies conversation.
Seems that our modern congress and DoD with regards to small arms procurement is just like the old Dutch ones.
I have one of these revolvers but mine is a bit different . Mine also has a weird safety that when applier it sticks into one of the chamber holes stopping it from rotating. I found a guy in Arizona who makes ammo out of 41mag cases.
Always a good day when you upload!
so i rebuild transmissions (mostly racing transmissions these days) and a sprag (aka one way mechanical diode) is a series of rollers or balls around a shaft with a spring that makes little ramps. this means you can turn it one way but it locks up the other.
Pro Tip, DON'T do burnouts in Drive or D. Use low or 1st. Why? because in 1st the reverse frictions will add strength to the lower sprag assembly allowing it to take the beating of a burnout. If you need a higher gear, just move the shifter to 2nd, then 3rd then drive. I've seen so many transmission that were trash because the lower sprag locked up and literally welded itself to the case. So your talking a replacement case plus all the hard parts needed to get a transmission working again. So please DON'T use Drive.
Awesome, I appreciate the content, keep it up
What human hand? The Dutch human hand, we are a “little” bigger then average..
This thing just screams for quick replacement cylinders. Forget the loading gate and separate extractor, just make it easier to release the arbor and snap in a loaded cylinder from your pocket. The crazy friction spring arbor makes it even easier because there's no real clearance issue to require hand fitting - the spring just sucks it up.
You could actually probably do that with the new model because it's machined instead of hand fit.
I'm just here to listen to Othias (do an admirable job of) pronouncing Dutch words.
Wow, I made a comment about the Dutch being cheap (using a cuss that's FCC-approved) and yt didn't only mute it--they outright deleted it. This site is getting BAD.
You know you can forget about getting any of our cheese this month now, right?
Thanks for the episode, I like the oddball stuff too. Keep up the good work!
Big Fan of Mae !!
Soleil is pronounced “So-lay” not “So-lille”. It means “Sun” in French.
It almost suggests that the Dutch could have retained that excellent grip shape and angle and downsized the action, cylinder, frame and barrel around .32 / 8mm caliber. Though not much of a ‘stopper’ at black powder small bore velocities, it seems that the 9.4mm wouldn’t have really been all that much more. Having shot the C96 (broom-handle), I have come to appreciate that one-size-fits-all grip style, even though my own bear paws are sized much like Othais’ hands - that is to say, most comfortable on traditional S&W N frame revolvers.
Othias does Dutch....... best episode yet.
God, how I miss the gulden 😢
mmm some sweet dutch design
I am of Dutch decent.
My father was a Hendrik Willem as was his father before him.. One cousin is Willem and another Hendrik. Now I know why. Didn't know that before!
So this may be the revolver my great-grandfather had? I have yet to watch the next episode and that one may have been it. He was mobilized in WW1 and was artillery. My mother's side....
An excellent in-depth description of this revolver. I always am impressed with your depth of research. I think your Primer on the Pederson device was the apex of your work. As some others have mentioned why American design ideas were not more applied to the revolver's design obviously North American designers borrowed from European designs. But then again, I answer my own question just look at Colt's first double action revolvers they are odd. I would like to see an issue that compares and discusses differences between American and European revolver design.
government procurement explains many dumb moves. A friend who worked for Honeywell computer systems said they kept supplying old printers to the government when the best use for them would be as stands for newer cheaper printers. They had to keep the old stuff going as to not have to rerun the procurement process. If you can barely get orders for the old stuff, through, newer stuff has no chance. The changes come from production experience, not someone with awareness of the slightly newer gun design. Again that is a matter of not rocking the boat. Reducing hand work was a basic manufacturing trend. Adding a new feature requires all sorts of Design approvals and testing, as well as changing the spare parts situation. If parts were not so commonly hand fitted, the "New" auto rebounding feature could have been retrofitted. This revolver had do not rock the boat written all over its design.
Mae is a better shot one handed than most people two handed with any gun you hand her
Perhaps I missed it, but do you ever post any explanation of loading for these old gats?
I have a '73 Navel Contract that I wouldn't mind loading for at some point. As I understand it, CH4D makes dies and brass can be made from 41 mag/special, but a video explanation would be pretty neat. I know YT doesn't like that sort of thing, so perhaps on another platform?
I am mostly interested in finding a source of .380 diameter bullets for reloading this caliber. Any references would be appreciated.
@@tmcgill2219
Pretty sure you're going to have to cast your own.
The smaller one looks great. I like the look of it a lot more than the big one.
It’s insane the Dutch were still making these in 1915
Just a small fact, the VOC was a private company, the government didn’t invest a thing but kept taking the taxes. The VOC had its own army to defend its interests. The greediness and lack of interest in spending money to protect its own people is stunning and still major till this day.
De voc was in 1799 failliet gegaan, tegen de tijd van deze revolver bestond het al lang niet meer
@@kylianvanhoorn2859 zucht, het gaat om het feit hoe onze regeringen denken over defensie en de daarbij behorende verplichtingen. Ze willen altijd voorop staan, maar betalen ho maar.
@@joostprins3381 oh zo, ja daar heb je absoluut gelijk in
@@kylianvanhoorn2859 😂🤣 dank je, ben blij dat je het eens bent met de essentie.
Were these pistols used in the Dutch East indies?
In Maastricht and the rest of the Limburg province it is (or was) common to be registered by a formal Christian name (Petrus) but to go by an informal derivative (Pierre), the former often being written in Latin and the latter often a French derivative. I don't know how the sources conflict exactly but this might well be the issue. Other examples are Jacobus~Jacques, Antonius~Toon, and Gerardus~Sjra (from the French pronunciation of Gerard).
Horribly obsolete=joy. I am on board.
Okay, so I know that you guys are trying to thoroughly cover all WW1 small arms, and you've done an unprecedented and fantastic job of that. But it's becoming clear as time goes on that, aside from remaking your oldest Primers to a higher standard, you're increasingly covering just firearms that saw barely any use and were really obscure even in their era. And while that can certainly be fine in itself, I can't help but wonder about how awesome it would be to get this level of history, background, detail, and context for interwar and WW2 firearms, especially given how relevant those firearms still are for modern-day firearms.
Whether it's the famous M1 Garand or the more obscure FG-42, or even the exact details of how the most revolutionary and ahead-of-its-time gun of WW2--the MP-43/44/STG-44--was designed and developed--it'd be incredibly fascinating.
a Smattering? I think you have more of a Plethora, Jefe
What I really want to know is if Johannes "Quick Draw" Bergansius thought about making his own fast-draw holster to use with the gun.
3 shooting in 1 episode? Man, you're spoiling the brat!
Another great one!
fantastic
Sir. Do you have much information on a circa 1895 dutch police revolver in 9.4? And what one would be worth?
If I'm buying a revolver in 1873, this is not my choice.
Utreon is wonderful!
In early! I always enjoy these videos on oddities.
An hour and 49 minutes? I'll need more coffee.
Thanks for sharing 👍
I don’t know, pointing a fruit is pretty much ok until the fruit recoils.
The pointability seems wonderful, do you think it could have modernized it while keeping that?
What are the positives and negatives of pinfire over rimfire?
Most modern handgun users wont hit 3/3 on full size silhouette. Something about revolvers point and shoot ability, makes them still useful even today. Modern revolvers that kept the good and dropped bad (weight, ammo, reliability issues). Modern days good revolvers still shoot great if aimed properly
Revolvers point like shit to me since they are stupidly tall over the hand and front heavy. Blaming the user does not negate the objective benefits of autos. Anything shoots great if aimed properly. Having watched every revolver Primer ever, I have a greater appreciation for the basic concept of an auto loading hand arm.
I am guessing the smart patents took so long to get developed because the card catalogue was not invented until 1935, so it was hard to find all the patents related to what one was working on.
Nice almost bought a Dutch Beaumont 71/88 the other day but it was gone once I had the money
I’d definitely recommend picking up a 71/88. I see them for reasonable price on Guns International all the time. The one I have holds 4MOA even after 140 years!