I do this in person, when someone asks for advice about their deck after we play a few rounds and their deck just really struggles to do its thing. I'll go through their deck and lay them out into different categories. Sometimes it's as simple as card advantage, ramp, payoffs, and then enablers, but I usually try to get a bit more specific to their deck. It's a nice way for them to see a visual of it and can help identify the areas they have too much of one thing and not enough of a different thing. Lately, I find people add too many doublers. Red decks run so many things that double, triple, or add more damage when damage is dealt but they don't run enough things that actually deal damage. White and green decks run things that double tokens made, trigger card draw when tokens are made, allow you to use your tokens for mana or something else, but they don't run enough things that actually make those tokens in the first place.
I have been subscribed to you for a while now and while I do enjoy your rules videos I would love to see some stuff from you doing this. You could even tie it back in with rules too if you come across nonbos in someone's deck.
@@TheAlcoholic83 Thanks! And yes, that is a great idea and something I've wanted to do. I plan to do a face reveal soon as I plan to do a wider range of content as the channel grows. Deck techs have sort of gone the way of the dinosaur on UA-cam as EDHREC has made it so easy for people to get an idea of a list for a deck, but just like the Challenge the Stats segment on here makes it clear, players leave out great options all the time, and I'd love to show how I would build decks. I have a different style to most players (in most cases it's a clearly weaker style but with a focus more on fun and wild plays).
@@EDHRECast It's always nice to get a different opinion on things. We can get tunnel vision with out decks and I like to see people's decks do their thing, so I'm happy to help them out.
Is the best thing to do. Analyzing a deck without building it is hard if you are not a veteran player, and separate cards into categories helps a lot. I agree with you and do the same when people ask me. Ramp, Removal, Card Advantage, Board Wipes, engines and pay offs.
It's impressive that after so long you guys still find a way to discuss new and useful topics so eloquently and informatively... keep on keepin on dudes, thanks! 🤙🏼
I have my decks split into a couple categories now that makes sense for me. Meat, Bones, Arties, Vegies, and Muscle. Meat is basically my section for most of the synergy pieces of the deck for me. Mostly my creatures and some enchantment effects. Bones are mana acceleration/lands, this is what holds the rest of the deck up. Arties are the ways my deck draws cards or search effects. Vegies are the things the deck needs to survive so this mainly consists of all my interaction/board wipes. Muscle is my game enders the spells I want to get to and try to win. Nothing revolutionary but I think its important that the categories makes sense to you.
My lists often actually fall into the double digits category by accident. I use Moxfield and the global card tag function because I got a lot of decks and even more ideas and am really too lazy to assign per deck tags on every new deck I brew. I got my few main categories (card advantage/selection, control/removal, wipe, ramp, land, protection) but as all cards are tagged with everything they can do, that creates some minor sub-categories like "copy stuff", "sac outlet", "lifegain payoff" and so on. These often consist of only some few cards, as long as they are not part of the decks themes, and thus I am pretty OK with just scrolling past them whilst focussing on the main categories of the current deck. Saves me a lot of time and is actually pretty helpfull sometimes to discover some unplanned sub-themes going on by coincidence that can be either cut, or built upon further. Especially with the abundance of modular/multi effect cards these days I think having these mini categories is a small price to pay for the time saving and general overview purpose that global tags provide.
When I got in those blue cantrips to draw cards were always leaving me feeling vulnerable and like I didn’t do anything on my turn. I switched all of them for night goggles, curiosity, combat research, and other equipment or creatures that draw cards on attack. I find myself more reliably attacking open opponents and drawing more every turn than casting a cantrip once. And my mana is left open to cast something after. Even the politics of “hey this other opponent is a threat and I need to draw cards to help answer it. Will you let my 2/2 with curiosity through to draw cards” kind of sneakily lowering that opponent while finding my next removal spell for a bigger threat.
I always categorize everything as enabler or a payoff. The enabler is the piece that has less requirements to use but also has a lower pay off. Ramp is an enabler because it typically costs less to ramp, Card Draw is the pay off because seeing more cards is better than ramping (usually). Removal spells are enables (as they enable me to get to my upkeep) and protection spells are the pay off- since they only work if I'm already ahead. Counterspells are nice because they effectively are "stack removal", doubling as protection. Then obviously there's the theme cards which are split up into enablers (EtB triggers for example) and a pay off (blink, doublers, etc). Typically it's those 6 categories+lands but generic tutors also have their own category if I'm playing those.
I might get too specific with my Archidekt categories, but I will give many cards more than one label, placing them in the category they are most important for.
I always label my decks by category the category is generally the concept or average result of a card, like single target Artifact / Enchantment removal vs Board Clears. It helps you to understand how much of an effect you truly have in your deck instead of how much you think you have.
I especially like that Archidekt allows you to put cards in multiple categories. I’ve also got a Thalisse deck with Master of Ceremonies. Given how often my playgroup takes the cards, I count it as a card advantage piece, but it has the option for making treasures, so it’s secondary and tertiary in ramp and token production respectively, so while I’m clearly not relying on it as a ramp piece, that’s still a possible application of the card.
I always felt that doing that sort of messes up how I visualize the deck. Like, now I’ve got Three Steps Ahead in Interaction, ETB Reusing, and Card Draw at the same time. But that’s still only one card in my deck and I’m unlikely to use it for more than one of those things at a time.
I love the multiple category option. It helps highlight those cards that put in extra work as often invaluable. For ramp, lately I've been using Ramp tag for basic 2CMC ramp & Ramp-Accelerant or Ramp-Situational for those extra effects. Same with card draw. Especially in spellslinger, a separate CardDraw-Cantripor graveyard deck CardDraw-Rummaging to show those specialized effects.
I’ve been finding it helps me cut down to 99. I’ll be staring at a list of 117 or so, and start throwing things into categories. Then I can see things I have too much of, less efficient versions of the same thing, and make general observations like “hey, all my card draw is conditional based on my engine running, I should get a couple spells that just refill my hand if I need it” or “I have lots of creature removal and not enough to hit artifacts and enchantments.”
It's always a pleasure when all three of you are on the show! I don't use archidekt anymore, but I typically like having multiple categories in my decklists and it helps me a lot with brews as like you were talking about I typically cut cards that don't fit into any of them
I usually run around 10 categories in my list. Lands, Ramp, and Draw, are pretty much standard to every deck, I usually break interaction into Removal (for threats already on the board), and Control (for protection for my own things, and for interaction on the stack), and Sweepers, which could be lumped in with Removal, but I like to keep them separate. Where I think I really differ is that I break the Theme category into 3 or 4 subcategories. For example, in the Arna Kennerud deck I'm currently brewing, I have a Carrier category for creatures that want to receive modifications, a Gear category for cards that get modifications on my Carriers, and a Payoff category for cards that care about having a lot of modifications. I find this helpful for balancing my numbers so that I can make sure I don't have all Auras and Equipment, but too few creatures to put them on, or anything like that.
I used to have very specific categories. Like Countspell and Target Removal, Removal. I have since then tried to go way more "overview" approach to my categories. Removal is anything that removes a card from the stack, battlefield, or graveyard. Card Advantage is everything that gets me to see more cards. Scry, Draw, and look at. No matter how potent. I then create subcategories of those usually with "x - y" and have them on the not included in the deck, but just to group cards. I love the custom categories and wish we could make relations between cards as well. I don't want an entire group for a combo or a synergy. EDIT. I for sure have more than 10 categories in my decks. But as my last point above is trying to say, I have to use categories for things that I would normally use a relation/tagging system for. And that is why I ended up with a subcategory system.
I've never used archidekt, but moxfield (which I do use heavily) has a tagging system where you can tag individual cards either just within a deck or broadly across your collection. What I like about this, though, is that you can assign them more than one tag. So you're not stuck putting things just in individual categories, but you can actually have them tagged as multiple things. So if I had a deck where I care about artifacts but I also care about ramp, I could tag an arcane signet as both so that I can see how many artifacts I have easily as well as how many ramp spells I have. Or a modal spell that could draw or interact could get tagged as both too. This means I often end up with more than just four or five or six tags in a given deck, but I can also see at a glance more granularly what stats my deck has that I care about.
One distinction I make with card draw is burst draw vs draw engines. I think that makes a lot of sense for the way I build decks since I want a ratio of both. Edited to add: I LOVE Shadow of the Second Sun for my new Obeka deck, another upkeep even without Obeka out? Let’s goooo
I tend to sort the pile of cards I gather into card draw, removal, ramp, and then various named categories that has synergies with the deck. For instance, a category called “blink” in a blink deck, or “tokens” for token makers in a token deck, or heck, even 5up for creatures with 5 power and up in a Mayael deck. The draw, ramp, and removal are all things that are going to be needed for pretty much any deck, but after that, categories are dependent on what theme you’re going for with a deck
Weird thing that I do for my card draw stuff... I have 3 types. There's engines, there's veggie draws, and there's panic draws lmao Engines are permanents like Skullclamp, Verity Circle, Whirlwind of Thought, Elemental Bond, etc for cards that your deck in particular can easily trigger for reliable draws. Veggies are instants/sorceries like Keep Watch, Abzan Charm, Harmonize, Night's Whisper, etc for cards that will draw well in almost any board state. Panics are things like Horizon Canopy, Azorius Locket, Mind Stone, Commander Sphere, etc for when you are willing to lose an arm and a leg to find an answer! If I'm getting really gritty about it I'll also include: --expensive draws, which are mana sinks to draw like Bonders' Enclave and War Room --connect draws, which are things that require me to deal combat damage to a player such as Oran Frostfang, Curiosity, and Glissa Sunslayer (which, as a note, pair great with Infiltration Lens and Neyith of the Dire Hunt)
When making a deck the first thing I do is list out my categories, in the same order almost every time. The sections are: Ramp, Draw, Spot Removal, Wraths, Strategy, Synergy, Utility, Bombs, and Lands. Most are self explanatory, here is a short explanation for the ones that are bit more obfuscated: Strategy is for my major game plan, this is the bulk of my deck and the things that work into my overall deck concept i.e. forgotten ancient or managorger hydra in a 1/1 counters matter deck Synergy is for what could be described as win more cards or things that don't directly impact the board without another card i.e. hardened scales or doubling season Utility is for deck specific utility, things like haste enablers, protection pieces, recursion, tutors (which I almost never play) ect. Sometimes these categories may split off into their own subcategory if I want to lean into that thing. This category should never be more than ~8 cards Bombs are my game enders or something that gets me so much advantage that the game will end if it goes unanswered. i.e All will be one or Champion of Lambholt. This is also where something like sunbirds invocation These categories may have different names in my actual decklist but they always have the same purpose described here. I also immediately dump 40 basics in most decks so when I look at the number of cards in my deck I don't underestimate the amount I have to cut. This has worked very well for me but I also have a strange deck building method in comparison to most people I know where I put in 120 cards into a pile and then I cut 10 cards and end up with 150 in the pile lol.
Here is what all my decks start with category wise: Ramp - Rocks - Reduction, Draw & Advantage, Targeted removal, and Protection & Insurance. Almost everything can fit into those categories and then from there I can get more specific if I feel the need. Definitely helps keep me honest lol
I use tapped out custom categories when I make my decks and I learned a way to put the same card in multiple categories without counting towards how many cards are in the deck so for example.. Grist the hunger tied, is in every category for removal, Mill, and token production
First filled are Mana and Card Advantage. Sweepers, Targeted Removal, and protection follow. Next are cards that work within the theme/world I am trying to build. Lastly is Shenanigans - cards that are 'fun' cards. Lands (non-Basic) are filled in while putting everything else together. At this point I usually have 120+ cards and have to cut back. Numbers I shoot for are 13 Card Advantage, 12-13 Ramp, 10-15 Sweepers & other interaction, and 20-25 cards within theme (including Shenanigans). I use both Archidekt and Moxfield.
I usually separate into multiple categories multiple times. First I separate by category of what the card does (Draw, removal, ramp, engine for what the deck does, fuel for that engine, etc). From there I then separate into card type once I thin it a bit to ensure the type density works out. Then once I've made the final cuts i organize by the prior categories again to make sure it all still looks balanced.
The categories I generally always have in my decks are ramp, draw, interaction, protection and misc utility. Protection is in there because I generally play pretty commander/creature based strategies. Misc utility is just a catch-all for one offs that dont fit in. For context, it ends up having something like 0-5 cards. Then the rest of my categories are tailored to the deck's gameplan. Usually this will be 1-3 more categories. The number of extra categories really depends on how much the synergies in the deck are dependent on each other. If a deck just has a bunch of things that work well with the commander/game plan independently, I may even just have one category of "commander synergies". But if the deck's usual game kind of needs to see 3 of one thing and 1 of another by midgame to function properly (usually the 1 other is something that doesnt do anything until i have a critical mass of the first category), I will have those in separate categories so I can keep track of the ratio.
I personally almost never use an online deck builder to build my decks. My brain just doesn't want to work with that. I need the cards in front of me. I've got "most" of my physical cards sorted alphabetically by color and type. If I have a deck idea I start shuffling through the colors looking for cards that fit what I'm going for and pull them into a working box. I always pull far too many and start to narrow down what I'm needing from there. Online doesn't let me do that quite the same. Once the deck is together and then loaded onto Manabox or Archidekt I can then sort it out and start searching for specifics for upgrades. Although, I still have working boxes for things I think may fit a deck as I endlessly fiddle with mine.
I will say, that online resources can show you a lot of data, very quickly once you have you list entered. Being able to see how the pips on your lands vs the pips on your spells line up. Being able to see your curve. Lots of little bits of data that would take a while sorting to see in paper.
@andrewpeli9019 which one thing I love them for. Every deck I make goes in one after initially being put together. If I'm reworking one, I need the physical cards. Otherwise it just doesn't click in my brain. The tools for finding mana curves, average costs, and finding one for one swaps are unparalleled with them. I envy people who can sort through all that digitally. I get decision paralysis lol.
Some of my decks have like 7 categories, they help me hit the ratio on specific parts of my synergy. My Caesar deck has an “early fodder” category specifically for cards that cost 3 or less so they drop before Caesar, and make saccable creatures for him. I do have “protect attackers” to make sure I have ways to not lose the new attacking tokens immediately. The deck really took off when I focused on both of those things. The “go wide” category has later game effects to make a bunch of tokens. “Finishers” includes damage multipliers and extra combats. In my Tuvasa voltron deck, I have separate categories for cards that protect Tuvasa, cards that make her evasive, and cards that just make her huge.
Building decks with categories made the building and the evaluating of cards way more easy. In my opinion, cards should be seen also in overlapping categories. Moxfield is pretty need in using those. (havent used achideckt yet) For example: If a land can also be a board wipe - very nice! (Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins) If a removal spell can also be ramp - sweet! (Path to Exile) If a draw spell that self mills can later be used as a sneaky win con - sign me up! (Altar of the Wretched // Wretched Bonemass) I go about my categories in a very simple "essential" way. 1. Win Condition (Everything that the deck needs to win and is build around.) 2. Alternate Win Condition ((or stuff to support the Win Con) Something that can win the game alternatively. Maybe a back-up combo, a voltron plan or just combat damage.) 3. Protection (Cards that protect all parts of the win con, board state or ourself.) 4. Draw / Search / Card Advantage (Tutors, ETB draw, scy or other effect that provide a good hand.) 5. Removal (Single target removal, board wipes, graveyard hate, ... everything that removes problems.) 6. Ramp / Reduction (Everything that helps cast your win con) 7. Recoursion (some cards that make stuff reusable or is, itself reusable from the graveyard.) X. Lands (just everything that is a land)
i make many categories to see if there's something missing or if something that i want in the deck is more present than i thought. all decks i make have eight categories in common: target removal, board wipe, "quick" card draw (the spell's mana value is 1 or 2), slow card draw and then land ramp, mana rocks and mana dorks. the distiction in card draw is for using a formula that tells me an approximation of how many lands i need in the deck. and i also like to organise what kind of lands i have (basic, dual, utility, etc.)
Ive seen draw spell distinction split into "card selection" and "draw engines" The difference between Rhystic Study and cantrips like Opt Making this distinction may help people a lot
Followup for the Kotori challenge: Battered Golem and Steelfin Whale provide a very similar sort of ability for her, and they're in 1 and 10 decks respectively. Imagining any flash artifact plays and how suddenly you can make vehicle blockers out of nowhere as well.
I've always been a fan of breaking my decks down into categories it helps me adjust my deck's needs based on areas where they are lacking or where I got too over zealous. If the deck has more of a unique theme like based on movies, TV shows, or video games they even help me sort out which pieces are flavorful and which ones are cuttable.
I tend to go by these categories. 1. Commander(s)/Companion/Name Sake 2. Ramp 3. Card Advantage 4. Interaction 5. Gameplan 6. Bombs/Wincons 7. Other 8. MDFC'S 9. Lands I organize them by subcategory as well. This lets me quickly distinguish not only what cards are there for what, but also how they do the thing. An example is that in my Galadriel, Light of Valanor deck, I play various ways to get creatures hitting the battlefield. So token generators and blink spells end up in the gameplan category, but I organize them together for their subcategory. This has helped me tremendously with cutting and visualizing.
Solid educational dialogue! My brother might agree with most discussion points here. Super surprised to find little-2-no discussion on story-shaped designs for a TCG surpassing 30-years of deep, nuanced lore baked into product design - not to mention Universes Beyond. Less of a focus on accurate “technical” binning may offer “perspective” serving to “activate” minds more “effectively” - says story-shapes baked into a modern version of human history. An advanced topic, perhaps - with plenty of examples available on our Moxfield account -✌️😉. Enjoy!
I'm curious as to how people feel about this. I personally really really like the color tags on Archidekt. When looking at other people's decks do you find it easier if they use custom categories or cor tags. I will set certain colors for the things I am using those cards for that way I can still sort by base category but also quickly see what is dedicated for what. It's nice to look at a list of 20-30 cards in the same card type but also know their roll. It has also helped me fix issues I might not have seen (like all of my card draw coming from creatures or artifacts)
I find there are two different types of categories. Categories every deck wants and categories this specific deck wants. For me there are 3 each deck eants Card draw/quality Ramp/color fixing Removal of all types Lands 2 categories that ofen are what a deck wants to do are Wincons and protection. Then there usualky are 2 or 3 categories that are specific to what a deck wants to do. What I think is more critical is setting limits to each category. This is what balances your deck and makes sure it functions. 7 cards will often let you see the category often about one a geme 10 if you want 1 in hand to start and 15 if you want to see two in hand these are tough numbers if youvare willing to mulligan down 6 Outside of all sorts of tribal decks i try to keep the categories to 100 cards. Then when i slot a card i choose the most likely effect to slot it in. I can get some high density of vegtible cards that way. For example i may slot 15 cards to draw and quality category. I slot 15 cards and then say mindstone and sad robot in ramp and kenrith's transformation in temoval. I now have 18 pieces of draw/quality Ummm yeah... i really like a lot of draw in my deck 😅
How hard is it to get into a game with y’all? I’d imagine a whole lot of people are trying to get in there? I’d love to play in a pod with you guys. You’ve helped inspire a lot of my decks!
I've started adding a "QOL" (quality of life) category to my decks and I aim to fit 3-4 cards in there. These are cards like Glissa Sunslayer, Great Henge, Collective Resistance, Abzan Charm, etc. that have so much modality and so much breadth of use that they just make the entire deck feel better with more options without tying in too heavily to the theme or goals.
One issue with sorting your cards by custom categories is that there are a lot of cards that cross categories (note I'm early on in the episode and I'm sure the guys make a similar point). So I have a separate spreadsheet for my recently updated decks where I have each card and all the categories they fit into. On the deckbuilding site, I will put cards into the categories that I feel need to be filled out the most, for example to better portray the themes of the deck. That said, a big exception is my Azorius infect deck, where I have cards like Experimental Augury and Prologue to Phyresis in the card draw category even though they are proliferate and poison cards, respectively. The Proliferate category is cards that basically only proliferate and the Infect category is cards that only add poison counters. It's much mroe useful to have these cards in the Card Draw section. So I suppose it depends on how you want to sort your cards on a deck-by-deck basis. Most of my decks have 6 generic categories: draw, removal, AoE, ramp, threats/win-cons, and defense/protection.
I dont use any online systens to build my decks other then looking up specific things like "what are all the leylines" for example if im doin a leyline deck. Other then that ill look up the commander on edhrec sometimes to get more ideas for cards i could add. I do all my building on my table at home with whatever i currently have in my collection. I do use catagories for building somewhat but its usually very basic. Mine are lands, ramp, removal, creatures, and utility. Sometimes ill seperate out theme, and card draw into there own piles.
I approach win conditions / finishers the same way as Joey. E.g. in Chatterfang, Mycoloth is not in the "token maker" category because it's at the top of my mana curve and if it lives, it usually ends the game.
That's funny about card draw. This has been something I have been thinking about a lot lately. E.g., if I want X sources of card draw, how do I value cantrips, 3 mana draw 2, or something like rhystic study/necropotence, or even arcane denial
I think the lack of inclusion for Mirran Spy (aside from being an obscure common that people likely do not know about) is that there are quite a few other cards for Blue/Artifact that allow you to potentially go infinite untapping artifacts where Mirran Spy feels underwhelming by comparison.
The hardest part about this is figuring out what goes in which category. Like… I’ve got a category called “Dig” which includes both normal card draw like Bident of Thassa and also surveil stuff like Gossip’s Talent. I can dump a lot of stuff onto the battlefield quickly, so I had figured that Talent would be a smart inclusion… but should I really be lumping that in with actual draw engines? Same deal with the “Reuse ETB” category. I’ve got two reanimation spells, four clones, a few instant speed blink spells and Thassa/Conj-Closet. All in the same category. I don’t really know how… or _if_ I should separate them.
I use a minimum of like 16 different custom categories on Archidekt, otherwise it's just a jumbled mess. There's Board Wipes, Card draw, Finishers, Utility lands, Protection, Ramp, Recursion, Removal, Tutors, etc. And then there's custom categories for specific decks like creature type specific stuff or sac outlets etc. Merging different categories defeats the purpose of having a good overview of what's in the deck.
I don't know how close you guys are with the mtg goldfish guys, but I'd love to hear an MDFC podcast ft. Dana! Half of those guys mana base are MDFCs😂😂
I still put Mind Stone in card draw category, because it draws a card. My card draw category is usually 12 - 20 cards, though, so I have at least those 8 - 10 strict card draw spells. But I agree, if you have only 8 card draw spells and one of them is Mind Stone ... that's weak.
I use so many categories, even keeping track of the turn I want things to come down. It helps me make sure I both have all my veggies AND that I have a smooth curve. Before this I might have a ton of 2 drops, but they're mostly removal or payoff to my commander that I don't actually want to drop turn 2.
Hey Dana! if it not already in your calaphe deck, are you going to consider putting shadow of the second sun into your callaphe deck to account for the card draw and devotion (and other benefits discussed in the episode)?
(Dana here) Yep, it's already in there, though I did run into a situation recently where I had it out along with two copies of Court of Vantress and a Storm of Saruman, and the math on the ideal way to stack those triggers was too much.
what i'd love is if deckbuilding websites supported modality among cards in categories so that i could put a card into multiple categories to fulfill my own personal template
Im a crazy person so i double up on all my deck lists. Have them open in two windows side by side, one custom categorized and one regular. Each group sorted by cmc as well to keep things efficiently costed too😂
The only deck I haven’t sorted by categories is my Commodore Guff superfriends deck, the planeswalkers each do too many things to easily break down that way.
I typically use counterspells as protection to counter removal This makes Spell Pierce & Negate more efficient options for my decks since they cost less budget and are more reliable to cast for the same effect Swan Song reigns supreme, but the price tag is miserable
My initial categories are: Lands, Draw/Tutor, Removal, Utility, Ramp. Then I put the things the deck wants to do, like Recursion, Sacrifice Fooder, Counters, Protection, Tokens, Stax... For me, deckbuilding can be more fun than playing.
My decks are sorted first into creatures, other, and lands (including mdfcs). Let's me see if I'm leaning creature or non-creature focus in any given deck. Then, I split "creature" and "other" into: Finisher Starter Interaction Recovery Tokens Consistency Ramp
Desecrated Tomb in Hofri seems win-more. It has few synergies with the rest of the deck if Hofri isn't in play and if Hofri is in play there are more powerful things your deck is doing that 1/1 tokens.
the EDHREC average deck feature doesn't show the number of cards in each category anymore. it was a really helpful UI to simply give me a general sense of how much each spell type i should be including.
Besides the basic categories on EDHrec I really wish you guys would do Type/Tags like Archidekt does. It's much more useful being able to filter for something like "draw" or "protection" than "instant" or "sorcery"
JLK from the Command Zone had commented on Desecrated Tomb that he had made every effort to find a way for it be useful but ultimately failed and stopped putting it in decks. It always underperformed. It is a card that seems like it should be good but is almost always “win-more” or useless in actual practice.
Watched a video from SalubriousSnail where he splits cards in his decks as inputs and outputs, and it really helped me balance a lifegain deck I was putting together. In this case inputs being cards that gain life (through lifelink or just food tokens) and outputs are all payoff for that lifegain.
Don't most if not 90% of EDH games end in 10 or under turns? So where is the rational to playing cards that combo and need much more mana then a specific turn will give. If it is turn 6, you better have something to work with before that 6 mana card creating something. Seems to me that so many decks are reliant on mana rocks or mana every turn and the cards in hand are basically your game. Or you have 6 mana in your opening hand and you hope you get your cards or combos out before someone else is dominating on turn 5? Granted EDH is supposed be for fun, but last week one of our players got so upset because no matter what he was doing to create a win condition, another player was creating THE win condition and I was blowing up the board because I was not. That play quit before the game finished because I blew up the board and though it did not matter, the guy creating THE win condition just created THE win right after I blew up the board for the 2nd time and had been done 4 times over all...This was all within 7 turns.
I adhere to the 8x8 building system, start with 100 slots add 36 lands, split the remaining 64 cards in 8 categories of 8 cards each. the first 4 categories are to cover your basics (Ramp, Draw, Kill) and the final 4 categories are what your deck wants to do. I dont play that often to fine tune my decks, and my colection is on the smaller side, so I often disasamble and reasamble decks on the fly, keeping the template helps me build multiple commanders in a way that i find if not optimal at least eficient. Also my Accounting brain enjoys the squareness of it all
Could you please for once call out Moxfield as well? I think the deck builders are almost 100% equivalent. I changed from Archidekt to Moxfield in about 2021 because the PlayEDH discord server used only Moxfield. Now, I don't see a reason to go back. Regarding tags, across 26 decks, I have every card tagged globally, and some have deck-specific tags as well. When I build a new deck, I often have only a card or three to tag. Most cards have multiple tags, e.g. Mirari's Wake has #!mana_bigmana and #!anthem. Modal spells are king of course.
We like the moxfield team and have shouted them out plenty of times in the past. We just happen to like these features on archidekt that we specifically talk about in this video
1st, categories are for my benefit, not yours. I use multiple-categories because I want to see every use the card has (I'm also more graphically inclined, over text). This also helps me see my themes and where I need to adjust. Maybe I shouldn't, but I do throw horizon lands and mind stone into draw... But this is what setting primary category is for. Regardless, when I do look at a given category zi can tell what the actual cars are rather than pumped number. And playing a lot of red, I separate draw into wheels, impulse, rummage, and cantrip... Because they're not necessarily compatible and I need to know where to tune. (my Atarka deck uses impulse. My Kolaghan deck uses wheels and rummage. My Feather deck uses cantrips.) Anyway... Just consider that when I label these categories, that doesn't mean I truly believe it. It means I need to see the potential, and I need something better than type. But I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
I do this in person, when someone asks for advice about their deck after we play a few rounds and their deck just really struggles to do its thing. I'll go through their deck and lay them out into different categories. Sometimes it's as simple as card advantage, ramp, payoffs, and then enablers, but I usually try to get a bit more specific to their deck. It's a nice way for them to see a visual of it and can help identify the areas they have too much of one thing and not enough of a different thing. Lately, I find people add too many doublers. Red decks run so many things that double, triple, or add more damage when damage is dealt but they don't run enough things that actually deal damage. White and green decks run things that double tokens made, trigger card draw when tokens are made, allow you to use your tokens for mana or something else, but they don't run enough things that actually make those tokens in the first place.
I have been subscribed to you for a while now and while I do enjoy your rules videos I would love to see some stuff from you doing this. You could even tie it back in with rules too if you come across nonbos in someone's deck.
That's a really nice thing to do to help people.
@@TheAlcoholic83 Thanks! And yes, that is a great idea and something I've wanted to do. I plan to do a face reveal soon as I plan to do a wider range of content as the channel grows. Deck techs have sort of gone the way of the dinosaur on UA-cam as EDHREC has made it so easy for people to get an idea of a list for a deck, but just like the Challenge the Stats segment on here makes it clear, players leave out great options all the time, and I'd love to show how I would build decks. I have a different style to most players (in most cases it's a clearly weaker style but with a focus more on fun and wild plays).
@@EDHRECast It's always nice to get a different opinion on things. We can get tunnel vision with out decks and I like to see people's decks do their thing, so I'm happy to help them out.
Is the best thing to do. Analyzing a deck without building it is hard if you are not a veteran player, and separate cards into categories helps a lot. I agree with you and do the same when people ask me. Ramp, Removal, Card Advantage, Board Wipes, engines and pay offs.
Yo mats been taking the BIG STOMPY to heart. Dude looks jacked in that thumbnail. He won’t fit in it soon enough.
No thumbnail will hold my final form!
Dude's got some counters on him for real
It's impressive that after so long you guys still find a way to discuss new and useful topics so eloquently and informatively... keep on keepin on dudes, thanks! 🤙🏼
Thanks for the kind words dude! Appreciate the support
I have my decks split into a couple categories now that makes sense for me. Meat, Bones, Arties, Vegies, and Muscle. Meat is basically my section for most of the synergy pieces of the deck for me. Mostly my creatures and some enchantment effects. Bones are mana acceleration/lands, this is what holds the rest of the deck up. Arties are the ways my deck draws cards or search effects. Vegies are the things the deck needs to survive so this mainly consists of all my interaction/board wipes. Muscle is my game enders the spells I want to get to and try to win.
Nothing revolutionary but I think its important that the categories makes sense to you.
My lists often actually fall into the double digits category by accident. I use Moxfield and the global card tag function because I got a lot of decks and even more ideas and am really too lazy to assign per deck tags on every new deck I brew. I got my few main categories (card advantage/selection, control/removal, wipe, ramp, land, protection) but as all cards are tagged with everything they can do, that creates some minor sub-categories like "copy stuff", "sac outlet", "lifegain payoff" and so on. These often consist of only some few cards, as long as they are not part of the decks themes, and thus I am pretty OK with just scrolling past them whilst focussing on the main categories of the current deck.
Saves me a lot of time and is actually pretty helpfull sometimes to discover some unplanned sub-themes going on by coincidence that can be either cut, or built upon further. Especially with the abundance of modular/multi effect cards these days I think having these mini categories is a small price to pay for the time saving and general overview purpose that global tags provide.
When I got in those blue cantrips to draw cards were always leaving me feeling vulnerable and like I didn’t do anything on my turn. I switched all of them for night goggles, curiosity, combat research, and other equipment or creatures that draw cards on attack. I find myself more reliably attacking open opponents and drawing more every turn than casting a cantrip once. And my mana is left open to cast something after. Even the politics of “hey this other opponent is a threat and I need to draw cards to help answer it. Will you let my 2/2 with curiosity through to draw cards” kind of sneakily lowering that opponent while finding my next removal spell for a bigger threat.
I always categorize everything as enabler or a payoff. The enabler is the piece that has less requirements to use but also has a lower pay off.
Ramp is an enabler because it typically costs less to ramp, Card Draw is the pay off because seeing more cards is better than ramping (usually).
Removal spells are enables (as they enable me to get to my upkeep) and protection spells are the pay off- since they only work if I'm already ahead. Counterspells are nice because they effectively are "stack removal", doubling as protection.
Then obviously there's the theme cards which are split up into enablers (EtB triggers for example) and a pay off (blink, doublers, etc). Typically it's those 6 categories+lands but generic tutors also have their own category if I'm playing those.
I might get too specific with my Archidekt categories, but I will give many cards more than one label, placing them in the category they are most important for.
I always label my decks by category the category is generally the concept or average result of a card, like single target Artifact / Enchantment removal vs Board Clears. It helps you to understand how much of an effect you truly have in your deck instead of how much you think you have.
I especially like that Archidekt allows you to put cards in multiple categories. I’ve also got a Thalisse deck with Master of Ceremonies. Given how often my playgroup takes the cards, I count it as a card advantage piece, but it has the option for making treasures, so it’s secondary and tertiary in ramp and token production respectively, so while I’m clearly not relying on it as a ramp piece, that’s still a possible application of the card.
I always felt that doing that sort of messes up how I visualize the deck. Like, now I’ve got Three Steps Ahead in Interaction, ETB Reusing, and Card Draw at the same time. But that’s still only one card in my deck and I’m unlikely to use it for more than one of those things at a time.
I love the multiple category option. It helps highlight those cards that put in extra work as often invaluable. For ramp, lately I've been using Ramp tag for basic 2CMC ramp & Ramp-Accelerant or Ramp-Situational for those extra effects. Same with card draw. Especially in spellslinger, a separate CardDraw-Cantripor graveyard deck CardDraw-Rummaging to show those specialized effects.
I'm glad it's not just me that does this. Although I will admit it drastically slows down my deck building process.
Yeah for sure, though long-term it probably saves time in terms of tinkering, making swaps, etc.
I’ve been finding it helps me cut down to 99. I’ll be staring at a list of 117 or so, and start throwing things into categories. Then I can see things I have too much of, less efficient versions of the same thing, and make general observations like “hey, all my card draw is conditional based on my engine running, I should get a couple spells that just refill my hand if I need it” or “I have lots of creature removal and not enough to hit artifacts and enchantments.”
It's always a pleasure when all three of you are on the show! I don't use archidekt anymore, but I typically like having multiple categories in my decklists and it helps me a lot with brews as like you were talking about I typically cut cards that don't fit into any of them
I usually run around 10 categories in my list. Lands, Ramp, and Draw, are pretty much standard to every deck, I usually break interaction into Removal (for threats already on the board), and Control (for protection for my own things, and for interaction on the stack), and Sweepers, which could be lumped in with Removal, but I like to keep them separate.
Where I think I really differ is that I break the Theme category into 3 or 4 subcategories. For example, in the Arna Kennerud deck I'm currently brewing, I have a Carrier category for creatures that want to receive modifications, a Gear category for cards that get modifications on my Carriers, and a Payoff category for cards that care about having a lot of modifications. I find this helpful for balancing my numbers so that I can make sure I don't have all Auras and Equipment, but too few creatures to put them on, or anything like that.
Matt’s arms look amazing on this thumbnail. Good work Matt.
Never skip leg day kids!
I used to have very specific categories. Like Countspell and Target Removal, Removal. I have since then tried to go way more "overview" approach to my categories. Removal is anything that removes a card from the stack, battlefield, or graveyard. Card Advantage is everything that gets me to see more cards. Scry, Draw, and look at. No matter how potent.
I then create subcategories of those usually with "x - y" and have them on the not included in the deck, but just to group cards. I love the custom categories and wish we could make relations between cards as well. I don't want an entire group for a combo or a synergy.
EDIT. I for sure have more than 10 categories in my decks. But as my last point above is trying to say, I have to use categories for things that I would normally use a relation/tagging system for. And that is why I ended up with a subcategory system.
I've never used archidekt, but moxfield (which I do use heavily) has a tagging system where you can tag individual cards either just within a deck or broadly across your collection. What I like about this, though, is that you can assign them more than one tag. So you're not stuck putting things just in individual categories, but you can actually have them tagged as multiple things. So if I had a deck where I care about artifacts but I also care about ramp, I could tag an arcane signet as both so that I can see how many artifacts I have easily as well as how many ramp spells I have. Or a modal spell that could draw or interact could get tagged as both too. This means I often end up with more than just four or five or six tags in a given deck, but I can also see at a glance more granularly what stats my deck has that I care about.
And if I had just waited till the 34-minute mark I would have seen that they have that feature as well 😂
One distinction I make with card draw is burst draw vs draw engines. I think that makes a lot of sense for the way I build decks since I want a ratio of both.
Edited to add: I LOVE Shadow of the Second Sun for my new Obeka deck, another upkeep even without Obeka out? Let’s goooo
I tend to sort the pile of cards I gather into card draw, removal, ramp, and then various named categories that has synergies with the deck. For instance, a category called “blink” in a blink deck, or “tokens” for token makers in a token deck, or heck, even 5up for creatures with 5 power and up in a Mayael deck.
The draw, ramp, and removal are all things that are going to be needed for pretty much any deck, but after that, categories are dependent on what theme you’re going for with a deck
Weird thing that I do for my card draw stuff... I have 3 types. There's engines, there's veggie draws, and there's panic draws lmao
Engines are permanents like Skullclamp, Verity Circle, Whirlwind of Thought, Elemental Bond, etc for cards that your deck in particular can easily trigger for reliable draws.
Veggies are instants/sorceries like Keep Watch, Abzan Charm, Harmonize, Night's Whisper, etc for cards that will draw well in almost any board state.
Panics are things like Horizon Canopy, Azorius Locket, Mind Stone, Commander Sphere, etc for when you are willing to lose an arm and a leg to find an answer!
If I'm getting really gritty about it I'll also include:
--expensive draws, which are mana sinks to draw like Bonders' Enclave and War Room
--connect draws, which are things that require me to deal combat damage to a player such as Oran Frostfang, Curiosity, and Glissa Sunslayer (which, as a note, pair great with Infiltration Lens and Neyith of the Dire Hunt)
When making a deck the first thing I do is list out my categories, in the same order almost every time. The sections are: Ramp, Draw, Spot Removal, Wraths, Strategy, Synergy, Utility, Bombs, and Lands.
Most are self explanatory, here is a short explanation for the ones that are bit more obfuscated:
Strategy is for my major game plan, this is the bulk of my deck and the things that work into my overall deck concept i.e. forgotten ancient or managorger hydra in a 1/1 counters matter deck
Synergy is for what could be described as win more cards or things that don't directly impact the board without another card i.e. hardened scales or doubling season
Utility is for deck specific utility, things like haste enablers, protection pieces, recursion, tutors (which I almost never play) ect. Sometimes these categories may split off into their own subcategory if I want to lean into that thing. This category should never be more than ~8 cards
Bombs are my game enders or something that gets me so much advantage that the game will end if it goes unanswered. i.e All will be one or Champion of Lambholt. This is also where something like sunbirds invocation
These categories may have different names in my actual decklist but they always have the same purpose described here.
I also immediately dump 40 basics in most decks so when I look at the number of cards in my deck I don't underestimate the amount I have to cut.
This has worked very well for me but I also have a strange deck building method in comparison to most people I know where I put in 120 cards into a pile and then I cut 10 cards and end up with 150 in the pile lol.
Here is what all my decks start with category wise: Ramp - Rocks - Reduction, Draw & Advantage, Targeted removal, and Protection & Insurance. Almost everything can fit into those categories and then from there I can get more specific if I feel the need. Definitely helps keep me honest lol
I use tapped out custom categories when I make my decks and I learned a way to put the same card in multiple categories without counting towards how many cards are in the deck so for example..
Grist the hunger tied, is in every category for removal, Mill, and token production
First filled are Mana and Card Advantage. Sweepers, Targeted Removal, and protection follow. Next are cards that work within the theme/world I am trying to build. Lastly is Shenanigans - cards that are 'fun' cards. Lands (non-Basic) are filled in while putting everything else together. At this point I usually have 120+ cards and have to cut back. Numbers I shoot for are 13 Card Advantage, 12-13 Ramp, 10-15 Sweepers & other interaction, and 20-25 cards within theme (including Shenanigans). I use both Archidekt and Moxfield.
I usually separate into multiple categories multiple times. First I separate by category of what the card does (Draw, removal, ramp, engine for what the deck does, fuel for that engine, etc). From there I then separate into card type once I thin it a bit to ensure the type density works out. Then once I've made the final cuts i organize by the prior categories again to make sure it all still looks balanced.
The categories I generally always have in my decks are ramp, draw, interaction, protection and misc utility. Protection is in there because I generally play pretty commander/creature based strategies. Misc utility is just a catch-all for one offs that dont fit in. For context, it ends up having something like 0-5 cards.
Then the rest of my categories are tailored to the deck's gameplan. Usually this will be 1-3 more categories. The number of extra categories really depends on how much the synergies in the deck are dependent on each other. If a deck just has a bunch of things that work well with the commander/game plan independently, I may even just have one category of "commander synergies". But if the deck's usual game kind of needs to see 3 of one thing and 1 of another by midgame to function properly (usually the 1 other is something that doesnt do anything until i have a critical mass of the first category), I will have those in separate categories so I can keep track of the ratio.
I personally almost never use an online deck builder to build my decks. My brain just doesn't want to work with that. I need the cards in front of me.
I've got "most" of my physical cards sorted alphabetically by color and type. If I have a deck idea I start shuffling through the colors looking for cards that fit what I'm going for and pull them into a working box. I always pull far too many and start to narrow down what I'm needing from there.
Online doesn't let me do that quite the same. Once the deck is together and then loaded onto Manabox or Archidekt I can then sort it out and start searching for specifics for upgrades. Although, I still have working boxes for things I think may fit a deck as I endlessly fiddle with mine.
I will say, that online resources can show you a lot of data, very quickly once you have you list entered. Being able to see how the pips on your lands vs the pips on your spells line up. Being able to see your curve. Lots of little bits of data that would take a while sorting to see in paper.
@andrewpeli9019 which one thing I love them for. Every deck I make goes in one after initially being put together. If I'm reworking one, I need the physical cards. Otherwise it just doesn't click in my brain.
The tools for finding mana curves, average costs, and finding one for one swaps are unparalleled with them.
I envy people who can sort through all that digitally. I get decision paralysis lol.
Some of my decks have like 7 categories, they help me hit the ratio on specific parts of my synergy. My Caesar deck has an “early fodder” category specifically for cards that cost 3 or less so they drop before Caesar, and make saccable creatures for him. I do have “protect attackers” to make sure I have ways to not lose the new attacking tokens immediately. The deck really took off when I focused on both of those things. The “go wide” category has later game effects to make a bunch of tokens. “Finishers” includes damage multipliers and extra combats.
In my Tuvasa voltron deck, I have separate categories for cards that protect Tuvasa, cards that make her evasive, and cards that just make her huge.
Building decks with categories made the building and the evaluating of cards way more easy.
In my opinion, cards should be seen also in overlapping categories. Moxfield is pretty need in using those. (havent used achideckt yet)
For example:
If a land can also be a board wipe - very nice! (Ondu Inversion // Ondu Skyruins)
If a removal spell can also be ramp - sweet! (Path to Exile)
If a draw spell that self mills can later be used as a sneaky win con - sign me up! (Altar of the Wretched // Wretched Bonemass)
I go about my categories in a very simple "essential" way.
1. Win Condition (Everything that the deck needs to win and is build around.)
2. Alternate Win Condition ((or stuff to support the Win Con) Something that can win the game alternatively. Maybe a back-up combo, a voltron plan or just combat damage.)
3. Protection (Cards that protect all parts of the win con, board state or ourself.)
4. Draw / Search / Card Advantage (Tutors, ETB draw, scy or other effect that provide a good hand.)
5. Removal (Single target removal, board wipes, graveyard hate, ... everything that removes problems.)
6. Ramp / Reduction (Everything that helps cast your win con)
7. Recoursion (some cards that make stuff reusable or is, itself reusable from the graveyard.)
X. Lands (just everything that is a land)
i make many categories to see if there's something missing or if something that i want in the deck is more present than i thought. all decks i make have eight categories in common: target removal, board wipe, "quick" card draw (the spell's mana value is 1 or 2), slow card draw and then land ramp, mana rocks and mana dorks. the distiction in card draw is for using a formula that tells me an approximation of how many lands i need in the deck. and i also like to organise what kind of lands i have (basic, dual, utility, etc.)
Ive seen draw spell distinction split into "card selection" and "draw engines"
The difference between Rhystic Study and cantrips like Opt
Making this distinction may help people a lot
Followup for the Kotori challenge: Battered Golem and Steelfin Whale provide a very similar sort of ability for her, and they're in 1 and 10 decks respectively. Imagining any flash artifact plays and how suddenly you can make vehicle blockers out of nowhere as well.
I live for this theme music 😂 gets me so hype
Ngl it's by far my least favourite part of the show but I get hype off the silly jokes so it makes up for it LMAO
@@travis_approved oh yeah, I always take the dad jokes to my team at work and it gets a good laugh 😂
I've always been a fan of breaking my decks down into categories it helps me adjust my deck's needs based on areas where they are lacking or where I got too over zealous.
If the deck has more of a unique theme like based on movies, TV shows, or video games they even help me sort out which pieces are flavorful and which ones are cuttable.
Ayyyyy Gabriel's tech that I ended up putting in my Hofri deck made it to the view CtS! Wooo!
Right? It's pretty dang useful!
I tend to go by these categories.
1. Commander(s)/Companion/Name Sake
2. Ramp
3. Card Advantage
4. Interaction
5. Gameplan
6. Bombs/Wincons
7. Other
8. MDFC'S
9. Lands
I organize them by subcategory as well. This lets me quickly distinguish not only what cards are there for what, but also how they do the thing.
An example is that in my Galadriel, Light of Valanor deck, I play various ways to get creatures hitting the battlefield. So token generators and blink spells end up in the gameplan category, but I organize them together for their subcategory. This has helped me tremendously with cutting and visualizing.
That's a solid way to do it. The key we think is finding that thing that works for you.
@@EDHRECast much love edhrec crew!
Solid educational dialogue! My brother might agree with most discussion points here.
Super surprised to find little-2-no discussion on story-shaped designs for a TCG surpassing 30-years of deep, nuanced lore baked into product design - not to mention Universes Beyond. Less of a focus on accurate “technical” binning may offer “perspective” serving to “activate” minds more “effectively” - says story-shapes baked into a modern version of human history.
An advanced topic, perhaps - with plenty of examples available on our Moxfield account -✌️😉.
Enjoy!
I'm curious as to how people feel about this. I personally really really like the color tags on Archidekt. When looking at other people's decks do you find it easier if they use custom categories or cor tags.
I will set certain colors for the things I am using those cards for that way I can still sort by base category but also quickly see what is dedicated for what. It's nice to look at a list of 20-30 cards in the same card type but also know their roll. It has also helped me fix issues I might not have seen (like all of my card draw coming from creatures or artifacts)
I find there are two different types of categories. Categories every deck wants and categories this specific deck wants.
For me there are 3 each deck eants
Card draw/quality
Ramp/color fixing
Removal of all types
Lands
2 categories that ofen are what a deck wants to do are
Wincons and protection.
Then there usualky are 2 or 3 categories that are specific to what a deck wants to do.
What I think is more critical is setting limits to each category. This is what balances your deck and makes sure it functions. 7 cards will often let you see the category often about one a geme 10 if you want 1 in hand to start and 15 if you want to see two in hand these are tough numbers if youvare willing to mulligan down 6
Outside of all sorts of tribal decks i try to keep the categories to 100 cards. Then when i slot a card i choose the most likely effect to slot it in. I can get some high density of vegtible cards that way. For example i may slot 15 cards to draw and quality category. I slot 15 cards and then say mindstone and sad robot in ramp and kenrith's transformation in temoval. I now have 18 pieces of draw/quality
Ummm yeah... i really like a lot of draw in my deck 😅
I laughed just as hard as Joey at Dana's joke. Best one ever.
Hey thanks!
How hard is it to get into a game with y’all? I’d imagine a whole lot of people are trying to get in there? I’d love to play in a pod with you guys. You’ve helped inspire a lot of my decks!
I've started adding a "QOL" (quality of life) category to my decks and I aim to fit 3-4 cards in there. These are cards like Glissa Sunslayer, Great Henge, Collective Resistance, Abzan Charm, etc. that have so much modality and so much breadth of use that they just make the entire deck feel better with more options without tying in too heavily to the theme or goals.
I call those ones good stuff lol
One issue with sorting your cards by custom categories is that there are a lot of cards that cross categories (note I'm early on in the episode and I'm sure the guys make a similar point). So I have a separate spreadsheet for my recently updated decks where I have each card and all the categories they fit into. On the deckbuilding site, I will put cards into the categories that I feel need to be filled out the most, for example to better portray the themes of the deck.
That said, a big exception is my Azorius infect deck, where I have cards like Experimental Augury and Prologue to Phyresis in the card draw category even though they are proliferate and poison cards, respectively. The Proliferate category is cards that basically only proliferate and the Infect category is cards that only add poison counters. It's much mroe useful to have these cards in the Card Draw section.
So I suppose it depends on how you want to sort your cards on a deck-by-deck basis. Most of my decks have 6 generic categories: draw, removal, AoE, ramp, threats/win-cons, and defense/protection.
Too true! At 34:03 we discuss our favorite tool to help deal with those cards that have cross-categories!
Don't go into double digits is some great advice for making custom categories
I dont use any online systens to build my decks other then looking up specific things like "what are all the leylines" for example if im doin a leyline deck. Other then that ill look up the commander on edhrec sometimes to get more ideas for cards i could add.
I do all my building on my table at home with whatever i currently have in my collection.
I do use catagories for building somewhat but its usually very basic.
Mine are lands, ramp, removal, creatures, and utility. Sometimes ill seperate out theme, and card draw into there own piles.
I approach win conditions / finishers the same way as Joey. E.g. in Chatterfang, Mycoloth is not in the "token maker" category because it's at the top of my mana curve and if it lives, it usually ends the game.
I really enjoyed Joey jumping into 'super passionate monologue mode' like we often see in his solo videos, always great
That's funny about card draw. This has been something I have been thinking about a lot lately. E.g., if I want X sources of card draw, how do I value cantrips, 3 mana draw 2, or something like rhystic study/necropotence, or even arcane denial
I think the lack of inclusion for Mirran Spy (aside from being an obscure common that people likely do not know about) is that there are quite a few other cards for Blue/Artifact that allow you to potentially go infinite untapping artifacts where Mirran Spy feels underwhelming by comparison.
The hardest part about this is figuring out what goes in which category. Like… I’ve got a category called “Dig” which includes both normal card draw like Bident of Thassa and also surveil stuff like Gossip’s Talent. I can dump a lot of stuff onto the battlefield quickly, so I had figured that Talent would be a smart inclusion… but should I really be lumping that in with actual draw engines?
Same deal with the “Reuse ETB” category. I’ve got two reanimation spells, four clones, a few instant speed blink spells and Thassa/Conj-Closet. All in the same category. I don’t really know how… or _if_ I should separate them.
Happy to hear you guys mention Eligeth. I partner her with Malcolm and it's a wild ride everytime
I use a minimum of like 16 different custom categories on Archidekt, otherwise it's just a jumbled mess. There's Board Wipes, Card draw, Finishers, Utility lands, Protection, Ramp, Recursion, Removal, Tutors, etc. And then there's custom categories for specific decks like creature type specific stuff or sac outlets etc. Merging different categories defeats the purpose of having a good overview of what's in the deck.
I don't know how close you guys are with the mtg goldfish guys, but I'd love to hear an MDFC podcast ft. Dana!
Half of those guys mana base are MDFCs😂😂
I still put Mind Stone in card draw category, because it draws a card. My card draw category is usually 12 - 20 cards, though, so I have at least those 8 - 10 strict card draw spells. But I agree, if you have only 8 card draw spells and one of them is Mind Stone ... that's weak.
I use so many categories, even keeping track of the turn I want things to come down. It helps me make sure I both have all my veggies AND that I have a smooth curve.
Before this I might have a ton of 2 drops, but they're mostly removal or payoff to my commander that I don't actually want to drop turn 2.
Also tend to label "generators", "enhancers" and "payoffs" to my themes (ex: Generate tokens, double tokens, draw cards when tokens enter)
Hey Dana! if it not already in your calaphe deck, are you going to consider putting shadow of the second sun into your callaphe deck to account for the card draw and devotion (and other benefits discussed in the episode)?
(Dana here) Yep, it's already in there, though I did run into a situation recently where I had it out along with two copies of Court of Vantress and a Storm of Saruman, and the math on the ideal way to stack those triggers was too much.
@@EDHRECast Awesome and thanks for the reply! Keep up the good work guys; I love to tune in during work on Fridays when the episode drops!
what i'd love is if deckbuilding websites supported modality among cards in categories so that i could put a card into multiple categories to fulfill my own personal template
Heck yeah---you'll love the feature we discuss at 34:03 ❤️
Moxfield let's you do so.
Im a crazy person so i double up on all my deck lists. Have them open in two windows side by side, one custom categorized and one regular. Each group sorted by cmc as well to keep things efficiently costed too😂
Where would y'all categorize anthems under? Would it be a type of payoff or setup?
The only deck I haven’t sorted by categories is my Commodore Guff superfriends deck, the planeswalkers each do too many things to easily break down that way.
I typically use counterspells as protection to counter removal
This makes Spell Pierce & Negate more efficient options for my decks since they cost less budget and are more reliable to cast for the same effect
Swan Song reigns supreme, but the price tag is miserable
My initial categories are: Lands, Draw/Tutor, Removal, Utility, Ramp. Then I put the things the deck wants to do, like Recursion, Sacrifice Fooder, Counters, Protection, Tokens, Stax... For me, deckbuilding can be more fun than playing.
My decks are sorted first into creatures, other, and lands (including mdfcs). Let's me see if I'm leaning creature or non-creature focus in any given deck.
Then, I split "creature" and "other" into:
Finisher
Starter
Interaction
Recovery
Tokens
Consistency
Ramp
I like you talking about shadow of the second sun, when a perfect commander is going to be released. The new Aminatou… Holy shit incoming.
Shadow of the second sun is so good. I have that in Omo with great whale and vedalken orrerry
Desecrated Tomb in Hofri seems win-more. It has few synergies with the rest of the deck if Hofri isn't in play and if Hofri is in play there are more powerful things your deck is doing that 1/1 tokens.
My Mono-Black deck has a "Ramp" category and a "Mana Fixer" category.
How long have you guys been using the Joey Alter of Syr Konrad?!
the EDHREC average deck feature doesn't show the number of cards in each category anymore. it was a really helpful UI to simply give me a general sense of how much each spell type i should be including.
Besides the basic categories on EDHrec I really wish you guys would do Type/Tags like Archidekt does. It's much more useful being able to filter for something like "draw" or "protection" than "instant" or "sorcery"
Ill now be bulk purchasing food tokens so i can eat them as a power play, like Matt apparently.
Enchantments, enchantresses, other enchantment synergies, protection. Done. 😁
Yeah I make a Fun category for a couple of cards
7-8 draw spells? Man I put 12 in every deck and I expect at least half of them to be re-usable.
JLK from the Command Zone had commented on Desecrated Tomb that he had made every effort to find a way for it be useful but ultimately failed and stopped putting it in decks. It always underperformed.
It is a card that seems like it should be good but is almost always “win-more” or useless in actual practice.
I like mono green, and to me, mdfs are just "cool forests."
Am I the only one who didn’t know Matt was ripped until this thumbnail?
If I had pickup lines like that, I'd already be hitched
Watched a video from SalubriousSnail where he splits cards in his decks as inputs and outputs, and it really helped me balance a lifegain deck I was putting together. In this case inputs being cards that gain life (through lifelink or just food tokens) and outputs are all payoff for that lifegain.
"Try putting your cards in unusual places" plz help, my deck is stuck in my cornhole 😑
Don't most if not 90% of EDH games end in 10 or under turns? So where is the rational to playing cards that combo and need much more mana then a specific turn will give. If it is turn 6, you better have something to work with before that 6 mana card creating something.
Seems to me that so many decks are reliant on mana rocks or mana every turn and the cards in hand are basically your game. Or you have 6 mana in your opening hand and you hope you get your cards or combos out before someone else is dominating on turn 5?
Granted EDH is supposed be for fun, but last week one of our players got so upset because no matter what he was doing to create a win condition, another player was creating THE win condition and I was blowing up the board because I was not. That play quit before the game finished because I blew up the board and though it did not matter, the guy creating THE win condition just created THE win right after I blew up the board for the 2nd time and had been done 4 times over all...This was all within 7 turns.
Matt is s fucking unit Jesus
I played too much Dr. Mundo in league that I tried to become him
SMH all the intro. Best dad jokes yet
Whaaat we got all three on feels like we’ve had a ton of two man pods for a while
RIP MTGsummit
I adhere to the 8x8 building system, start with 100 slots add 36 lands, split the remaining 64 cards in 8 categories of 8 cards each. the first 4 categories are to cover your basics (Ramp, Draw, Kill) and the final 4 categories are what your deck wants to do.
I dont play that often to fine tune my decks, and my colection is on the smaller side, so I often disasamble and reasamble decks on the fly, keeping the template helps me build multiple commanders in a way that i find if not optimal at least eficient.
Also my Accounting brain enjoys the squareness of it all
Starts @5:08
Could you please for once call out Moxfield as well? I think the deck builders are almost 100% equivalent. I changed from Archidekt to Moxfield in about 2021 because the PlayEDH discord server used only Moxfield. Now, I don't see a reason to go back.
Regarding tags, across 26 decks, I have every card tagged globally, and some have deck-specific tags as well. When I build a new deck, I often have only a card or three to tag. Most cards have multiple tags, e.g. Mirari's Wake has #!mana_bigmana and #!anthem. Modal spells are king of course.
We like the moxfield team and have shouted them out plenty of times in the past. We just happen to like these features on archidekt that we specifically talk about in this video
Yeah, it's not 1994, and this isn't television, there is zero need for intro-songs or shit. Just get to the point.
Sigh.. fuck me, I barely made it through 25 seconds and I'm already the fuck gone. You people suck at this.
1st, categories are for my benefit, not yours.
I use multiple-categories because I want to see every use the card has (I'm also more graphically inclined, over text). This also helps me see my themes and where I need to adjust.
Maybe I shouldn't, but I do throw horizon lands and mind stone into draw... But this is what setting primary category is for. Regardless, when I do look at a given category zi can tell what the actual cars are rather than pumped number.
And playing a lot of red, I separate draw into wheels, impulse, rummage, and cantrip... Because they're not necessarily compatible and I need to know where to tune. (my Atarka deck uses impulse. My Kolaghan deck uses wheels and rummage. My Feather deck uses cantrips.)
Anyway... Just consider that when I label these categories, that doesn't mean I truly believe it. It means I need to see the potential, and I need something better than type.
But I do appreciate your enthusiasm.
Starts at 5:08