Several times: > me building a deck: "Panharmonicon makes this setup so busted" > me actually: wishing I had anything other than Panharmonicon in my hand
I play it in my groot deck. As the deck spits out so much maná, I can play some winmlre cards. 3 is my too if it does nothing, but I also hedge my odds. See the phylath deck has etb ramp, and 2 mana ramp. So i can go t2 ramp, t3 harmonica, t4 wood elves, and other ramp.
Yoooo someone help a brother out here! I just put panharmonicon in my precon Timeless Wisdom deck. I had to replace a hand full of cards in there because they are ass or don't go with the theme (cycling). Advice? I can post the deck list and I took some advice on the replacements but the deck feels weakkkkk.
One thing that shockingly seems to get so many Commander players out there is lost by decking. I remember an episode or two of game knights where that actually happen. I was thinking at the time, boy... they really could have used a few cards to reshuffle all that back into the libraries.
I ran helm in my kaalia deck with the intention to make copies of kaalia, then i dropped aurellia into play and i had a sudden realization and went infinite caught all of us off guard
One of the best deck-building advice I've ever gotten is: When adding a card to your deck, consider these three things: 1. Is this card a good draw when I'm behind? 2. Is it a good draw when situation is tense, grindy and even? 3. Is it a good draw when I'm ahead? If you said 'yes' to at least two, the card is a strong contender to add! Very similar idea to your conclusion, framed differently.
You should know this is basically Quadrant Theory, something some pro players came up with for card evaluation a while ago. The essential idea is splitting your evaluation into 4 parts - Developing, Winning, Parity, and Losing. Figuring out which quadrants each card is strong in helps quantify the value of the card in your deck, etc etc.
I was thinking about having quadrant theory in the video but went with this because I think it flows better not needing to explain what a floor and ceiling is
You say "You can't make a deck with just removal, ramp, and card draw" as you show a green, red, white, and blue spell... I smell an Aragorn build in the near future... I like to call it "Aragorn Only Eats Veggies"
"You can't make a deck with just removal, ramp, and card draw". Also this desribed my current Henzie List. It just happens, that all of those are on 8/8s that get haste from Henzie
you can win if you play right commander. eteli doesnt need anything else than ramp. it wins with opponents cards and making it a blightsteel colossus. that new massacre girl all you removal draws cards 44 kill if opponents doesnt have anything on the board. just play couple win cons on top of those.
Absolutely agree. I built a Greasefang deck, with the plan of using discard engines to bin a giant vehicle and then use Greasefang to reanimate it, punch face, then when the vehicle jumps back to my hand I rinse and repeat. I quickly realized that a "vehicle reanimator" deck doesn't work too well when your only way of reanimating big vehicles is stuck in your command zone all game after eating a buffet of removal or is turned into a 0/1 bug. The thing is, any sensible opponent is not going to just let you do anything you want. After looking at my decklist with the expectation that my opponents are probably going to attempt to stop me from winning gave me a much more clear picture. As you say, there's no real one solution, and my answer was that I didn't need ALL the vehicles and the more greedier, "staple" cards ("surely every white deck should run Smothering Tithe & Ghostly Prison," I said...) and slot in a lot of protection, flickers and alternative discard pay-offs for my discard package when Greasefang isn't around. Flicker effects _especially_ made the deck run so much smoother, using it as a defensive way to protect Greasefang, or flicker my own vehicle to make it avoid Greasefang's bounce effect. Even though the term "Discard-Flicker-Vehicle-Reanimator Deck" sounds like an unsynergetic nightmare on paper, the reality is that every single card still goes towards the same game plan of "kill you with vehicles", and it's easily my most consistent and strongest deck nowadays.
One thing I'd like to point out is that your middle of the road scenario with Teferi' Ageless Insight, where it doubles up some card draw but you don't end up using those extra cards, the enchantment is still doing something useful. Seeing extra cards, even ones you don't use, is good because it gives you more information to make decisions with and more options about what to play. Also, even if Insight draws you some useless cards, those are cards you were going to draw eventually anyway, so it had gotten past them in your deck and closer to good cards. I'm not saying the card should be played as much as it is, but the actual floor of doing NOTHING only ever occurs if you play it and then do not ever play any draw effects for the rest of the game, which seems very unlikely.
For all the people here convinced they still need Reliquary Tower, just run Thought Vessel and Decanter of Endless Water instead, there the floor is at least a rock that gets you ahead on mana instead of a land that cuts you off a color. Sure it feels less "free", but you need rocks/ramp anyway, you might as well use some for synergy.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I haven't actually had to discard a card due to having too many in hands in a hot minute and even if I did, I don't remember that as being a painful moment and I also probably won that game because I had so many cards in hand. If you can't win a game on like turn 6+ with a full grip of 7 cards after you drew like 10 or so... what are you even doing?
@@paulszkiit’s probably just your style of deck as well as the opponents you play because I have it happen at the bare minimum every other game and if it does it happens more than once in that game. Also my decks can be a little draw heavy. I want to sift through my deck to find pieces and I’d rather not lose any possible solutions, faints, or pieces to discarding in those decks.
@@hbsavage0387 I don't know, I'm unconvinced. Holding more than 7 cards in your hand on laters kind of just feels like you've spend a lot of effort doing nothing to the actual board. Like, cards in hand are still an usused resources until you actually get to use it. Remineds me of players in Starcraft, Age of Empires, Command & Conquer etc. having several thousand resources in their bank and not enough barracks to spend it. I have a friend who constantly loses with a full grip of cards in his hand because it's all stuck there because it's all a tad to expensive so he can't cast more than one thing per turn. I mean sure, if you're somehow magically ramping AND deploying threats AND drawing a bunch of cards, good on you... I guess but I honestly find it hard to belive. Of course there's a couple of commanders that just enable full hands but my point still stands: If myy commander is online and doing their thing and I'm developing threats how am I not winning already and what are these "pieces and sollutions"? Develop your gameplan, remove some stuff, kick doors in. Are you setting up 5-card infinite combos?
@@paulszki a piece is a card that can be used to combo in one or more of the strategies your deck wants to deploy. Solutions are cards that solve a problem that a board state presents. Now on to the main thing as long as you don’t brick out on drawing ramp it’s pretty easy to keep your hand full and cards churning out that’s if you built the mana base right for the deck. Also there are so many different ways to get good consistent draw. Especially with commander staples like rhystic study and esper sentinel as well as a fair few cards that generate draw off of triggers such as attacking or something entering play. You can very well end up with getting more cards than you play and you still are pumping out cards. It honestly boils down to deck building and because I play online and free it allows me and my group to play more expensive cards that most paper players won’t have. I build my decks to have decent card draw just because I like being able to sift through my deck and get cards I need without being obvious with a tutor of some kind. It just boils down to deck design at the end of the day. I like being prepared thusly I have the card draw to get to my solutions, pieces, or faints.
I remember hearing someone say recently that Reliquary Tower should be an auto include in any deck. I really only ever had it in my Locust God deck that was centered around drawing cards. Thinking back on it, the only times I've had to discard to hand size, and I didn't want to, was when I was mana screwed.
In "old" commander, it usually WAS "auto-include" because utility lands were fewer and farther between, games went longer, and the possibility of just having 8-10 cards in hand because of stalemating and pacing was not entirely off the table.
@@danielgoddu4673 There's some more decks where the opportunity cost is super low, so if you have a copy, it might be worth playing. Most mono, or low-pip dual decks will probably not sacrifice much. Now, a land that is 99% a basic wastes in a 5-colour deck, LOL.
Reliquary Tower really needs to synergize with part of your deck's main game plan to justify its existence. Jin-Gitaxias // Great Synthesis where the commander's activated ability starts with "draw cards equal to the number of cards in your hand" - sure, absolutely. Otherwise it's just this colorless land with a largely-useless passive ability that might compel you to mulligan. If you're looking at a starting hand in Grixis with Watery Grave, Swamp, Reliquary tower you'd probably very much rather ANY red source. Anything from basic mountain to tapped red/X dual to another shock/fetch for the high-budget brews... literally anything.
I run reliquary tower in my Ghalta primal hunger deck. In that deck you're using greater good and every other card that lets you draw for power, so you generally have 12+ cards in hand as early as turn 4
@@thetrinketmage I do heavily need the green mana tbh, it's a real sacrifice there. I just find that I draw so many cards that it's worth the risk. I just love being the green player with 30 cards in hand when I pass lol.
This reminds me of the one time I asked another player how he wants to get 8+ cards in hand after seeing the Tower in his Boros deck, back in 2015. He was quickly enlightened that there are better cards out there. Nowadays there are some Boros Commander that can draw you enough cards (Nelly Borca easily getting 10+ cards in hand makes Tower really good).
So in the reliquary tower example, it slots in for a land. Unless you are running 4 or 5 colors where you need to focus more on having all colors, very few times will you actually run into reliquary tower when you would have needed one of your missing colors. The only deck building requirement the tower asks is that you have one or multiple ways of consistently drawing cards. The opportunity cost in 3 or less colors is negligible and the potential upside is keeping all the cards you would have otherwise discarded. So throwing it in those decks has really no downsides
I was actually about to comment this exactly. With 5 color commanders (like The Ur-Dragon here) it's likely a much larger hindrance, but for most mono and two color commanders, throwing in a reliquary tower has a really small opportunity cost.
It slots in for a land. Like every other utility land. Unlike Reliquary tower Urza's Saga isn't equally or less beneficial than a basic wastes over 99% of games. The unfixing on reliquary tower is absolutely more impactful than what is effectively flavor text.
@zyxia6165 it's hard to follow what you are saying, but what I meant was that since reliquary tower slots in for a land, the opportunity cost is rather low. Unless you built your deck's mana base poorly or got super unlucky with a color spread in an opening hand, there won't be a time where you will necessarily be punished for a reliquary tower. I'll throw it in basically all of my 3 or less color decks if I even remotely have a chance of having more than 7 cards in hand because the only opportunity cost I'm giving up is having a basic or dual land which taps for colored mana which I alleviate by creating a strong mana base.
And what I'm saying is I disagree. You're underestimating both the cost of a colorless land and how useless the ability of the reliquary tower is. The opportunity cost of not playing almost literally any other land is very real
Yeah, I play Minn and I have almost every looter that doesn't suck in the deck. If I manage to get Ageless Insight in(usualy for 0 mana) it's an almost won game already.
That's the reason I play it in my Aminatou deck. It makes her ability a weaker brainstorm, yet still netting me cards, not just replacing the top from my hand.
seagate restoration is the best example of this. it only draws you lots of cards if you already have lots of cards. tap out on my turn to draw cards when my hand is already full? no thanks.
@@thetrinketmageI've cast it so many times in my mono blue Atemsis deck. I recently added overflowing insight just to have another similar effect. Love it.
I agree on this. The only deck I play helm of the host in is my Silumgar the Drifting Death deck because he has the hexproof to dodge that spot removal that would normally get thrown at him in response to the equip, and his -1/-1 ability gets multiplicatively better when duplicated, since each of them triggers off each dragon they see attacking and silumgar is of course a dragon itself. This makes the clone effect much better than in most decks. Sure its still a bit win more, but its also a great way to repeatedly duplicate other strong dragons in the deck considering I'm in dimir and my options are limited for that tribe.
You are so close to applying quadrant theory to EDH, something I recommend all players learn to do. Also, Teferi's Ageless Insight only sees so much play because it's a budget card that makes your other budget card draw spells ALMOST as good as their nonbudget equivalents while it is in play. Some people just want a CHANCE to keep up with more expensive and usually more powerful decks. It's not the same, but I really can't fault them for trying. Sometimes, you just have to work with the tools you have, ya know? Lastly, I think that the inclusion rate for Reliquary Tower is artificially inflated by the "precon effect." Let's face it, that card was included in every precon for a long time, and there is a growing movement to play more unmodified or only slightly upgraded sealed commander decks.
So I almost made this video with quadrant theory in the script but ended up changing it because I liked the ceiling floor analogy better for simplicity
@thetrinketmage fair point, although I do believe that some relevant nuance is lost in doing so. Still, it's your channel, and the art you present needs to be based on your judgment, so whatever you think is the best way to reach your audience is probably the right choice.
@@franslair2199 I'm sure it sees fringe cEDH play. Lots of cards do, but I was talking about why it sees so much play on EDHREC of which cEDH is only a small portion.
@@majinvegeta6364 you're saying it's a shit card that people are trying to play because it seems good but isn't. You don't know what you're talking about.
With some staples in decks, I throw them into mine if they won't hurt too much when drawn early because they're the red herrings of my deck. I tend to build strange decks with strange cards, so when my opponents at the table see a staple, they typically go and destroy/remove/counter that one because they're experienced with that card. I don't mind losing those cards too much, even though they still bring some value to my deck, because that way I keep the real stars save. Worked quite well for months by now, even with people who have gotten to know my decks by now.
The only deck I run reliquary tower in is my Narset enlightened exile deck and this video is making me look at it more critically. The negatives, as you have highlighted, are that it's a colorless land for my three color deck without green which can make it hard to cast some spells, and that at the end of the day discarding spells to the graveyard isn't all that bad because I can reuse them with Narset. BUT, on the contrary, I kinda like how it removes one decision point that I don't have to think about, and with all the triggers I have to keep track of, the ordering of spell slinging and deciding what mana to leave up for instant interaction I actually like having one fewer thing to worry about. Also narset is one of the decks that, in my experience has a strong correlation between big hand size and having a lot of creatures on the board, so I really want to keep both protection spells, cantrips and big buff spells all at the same time. So while I agree that a lot of players get too focused on the highest ceiling instead of the average floor, I think that you're underestimating a bit how "comfortable" certain cards can make you feel, especially if you have to account for a lot of things having (sometimes) less mental load is worthwhile on its own
I draw a lot of cards in group hug Zedruu. But I don't play Reliquary Tower, you know why? If I have ten or fifteen cards in hand, people might be scared of me, even if I have like two protection spells, three creatures, a Propaganda, and a ton of lands. But those magical words, "discard to hand size," takes half the target off youe back. A couple players' turns later, you'll be asked "how many cards in hand?" and you'll say "seven" and they'll go "oh yeah, that's a normal number of cards. Not so scary."
While I agree it removes the target off your back, if you have 30 cards in hand you can fight off 3 players and still have cards to play when they run out. My win con in most of my decks is to just draw 30+ cards and grind the table slowly through attrition into conceding. I dont like combos, and I love control!
@@matd2892 this works too! It depends if your goal is to fly under the radar and win at the end, or to become archenemy and fight everyone. I had a Niv-Mizzet Parun who could fight the table, and that was a Reliquary Tower deck for sure (despite the awkwardness with his mana cost)
I agree! Though on the relinquary tower, there are definetely places for it. No just don't stuff it in any deck, but it can be very powerful in draw-centered decks. I run it in my rielle deck for example, which allows me to set up game-winning turns by having tons of cards to discard in an opponents turn. Even while the floor is low, playing a colorless land is usually not a significant downside which is why i think people still play this card in the most random decks
Thankfully, because of my time playing yugioh I already had experience w/ ensuring that most cards accomplished something on their own before coming to magic.. But my lord EDH has soooooooo many more temptations for this, I especially love it when old cards just kindaaaaa fit in. But then when I need space for cards that actually further my strategy, I look at the first card and go "Nope, thats my favourite piece," look at the next one "No, thats also my favourite," next one, "I just haaaave to keep this in its so good when it works!"
I run Ageless Insight in one deck, it’s my Zedruu Wedding Ring deck. The floor is that I draw into my pieces faster, the ceiling is that I give it to the opponent with the biggest library and watch the fear enter their eyes as everyone but me at least has 2 Wedding Rings or a Wedding Ring and a draw doubler (I’ll just have a Wedding Ring) when there’s a Teferi’s Puzzle Box (or multiple draw more cards effects) on board and they started to draw at an alarming rate. It’s a deck full of synergy, pillowfort, removal, and win more that I like to describe as “I’m giving you the answers, can you beat me before you draw out?” and teaches players the value of removal.
Reliquary Tower, the bane of my existence. I think I have discarded to hand size...one time in all the EDH games I've played, and I did not care because I still had 7. I always see it and go "This is literally making your deck worse, person."
See I’m pretty much the inverse. I regularly run it my group hug Bant and Az decks. It’s a great piece of redundancy since land destruction is rarer than other types.
I am also the opposite of this, with The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride, I often end my turns with well over 8 cards in hand and I'm either thankful for hitting tower, or wishing I hit tower
How little EDH and/card draw do you play where you've only discarded to hand size once? Cyclonic Rift exists, Sphinx's Revelation exists, Necropotence exists, Rhystic Study/Mystic Remora/Esper Sentinel exist, etc. I discard to hand size probably once every 10 games. I do agree that Reliquary Tower shouldn't be played outside of 2 or less color decks where you plan on drawing an absurd amount of cards, as in it's what your commander does.
These videos are always very thoughtful and appreciated. It’s nice that there are channels that are still contributing valuable insights into the format.
Great video as always. I recently removed "Teferis Ageless Insight" from my Anowon (Dimir Rogues Tribal) Deck, because I realized it mostly only works with my commander and is worse than a "Bident of Thassa". Same with "Helm of the Host" in Zhulodok, it is just an overkill.
really liked this video. I myself have been playing for a long time (1993) and had to figure these things out the hard way. Great that you're offering new players a toolbox for building their deck better!
I have Reliquary Tower in 2 decks for very specific reasons. My Azami, Lady of Scrolls cEDH/High Powet deck has powerful effects that reward my large hand sizes. Oftentimes I will have upwards of 20 cards and being able to pitch cards with Dream Halls is super effective. My second deck is Ranar, the Ever-watchful, and it is one of a dozen colorless mana producers to enable Eldrazi Displacer. If I were to remove the Displacer, it would come out in a heartbeat.
As a side note I love Teferi's Ageless Insight in my esper Connive deck. It works incredibly well with looting effects in general since it turns filtering into true card advantage.
Another thing about Reliquary Tower that some people don't consider is that in any Graveyard deck you might actually WANT to discard to hand size to be able to pitch things to your graveyard
I totally agree. Though I doubt you're going to circle around, if you ever talk about "teferi's ageless insight" again, it has a much stronger synergy with commanders that themselves cantrip. "Sidar Jabari of Zhalfir" becomes a powerhouse when combined with cards like it and "The council of 4". It's also great in something like "Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer", where you're using it with a morph/colorless cost reducer and a flash enabler to ensure you can play your whole deck.
It’s great seeing videos aiding newer players, I mostly play a ton of destruction/prison decks, so they need all the help they can get when faced with someone whose threats are just board wipes & using Emblems as win cons.
Someone suggested I run Reliquary Tower in my Goreclaw deck which can and often does draw a ton of cards. I'm not ruling out ever adding it, but I'm generally only ever discarding excess forests so it doesn't really do anything for me except make me look scarier than I actually am.
I run it in my Goreclaw list. It's not the best, but atleast it's a little insurance in case you have to rebuild after your pop-off board gets wiped. My deck is extremely greedy, though, so I don't know if it's the best example, lol.
the only deck i include any "no max hand size" cards is my baba lysaga deck, in which i want to trigger her 1-2 times per turn, drawing me 4-7 cards a turn. i dont absolutely need reliquary tower or thought vessel in the deck, but i think that they are valid in that deck as the no max hand actually does help out somewhat, and when it does do nothing having a colorless land/colorless mana rock isnt hurting my deck at all
Thank you, I had an experience where I built a $500+ token deck and then when I tested it it was really terrible. I had a bunch of those expensive win more cards that seemed obvious to me at the time, but I constantly ran into situations where I didn't want to play something because I need to play all these other things first for it to be "optimal". Then I built a budget version of that deck and it was a lot better, I didn't understand why at the time, but after seeing your videos I can see that it was because I focused too much on synergy and not enough on interaction. I cut a lot of that synergy for interaction for price reasons, but it actually was what the deck needed.
While watching this I started taking a look through one of the decks I have and got to Warren Soultrader right as it got on the screen. Was a real neat experience
This is why Grolnok the Omnivore is a funny commander. It's full of cards that are give you insane card advantage if the frog is out, but do nothing or are actively detrimental if it's not.
So in the group I play (casual modern like setting, with FFA being common similar to commander), the Crucible of Fire works very well in the dragon deck that someone else has. The critical detail here is that are not only playing large dangerous dragons, but also some smaller dragons that help block/discurage attackers early, and which helps ramp them up (either directly or through dragon spells costing less). When this comes down, all those small dragons go from cute supports to medium threats themselves, and the dragons they can put down end up being even more dangerous. It is also important to note that there is also beast ramp deck in the group, and this enchantment makes it possible for the dragons to easily block a lot of those powerful beasts, which can kind of win it the game, as the beast deck has to wait for a finisher card, while it can send its flyers in and start taking others down.
its funny, I actually run Teferi's Ageless Insight in my Sidar Jabari deck specifically for the example you used in this video, because all of my knights cantrip when they attack its super useful for digging for more knights to discard to reanimate
I am glad you are talking about this. Most of the people I end up helping with decklist fixes only focus on the ceiling and explaining to them how the ceiling doesn't matter if there is not a good floor to support can sometimes be quite hard(I'm convinced over 90% of MTG players are denser than nuclear pasta). Side note, reliquary tower is a trash card, even in a deck that has a goal of getting a 50 card hand.
Thank you for the Ageless Insight example. I've pointed to others that it's a trap card in a lot of decks because they see their commander has "Draw a card" somewhere on it. Paying four mana for nothing until that commander trigger happens gives a lot of opportunity for your opponents to interact in a way that denies the cards you wanted. Just play a normal draw spell or a synergy piece.
Another great argument I've heard against running Reliquary Tower is that discarding helps teach card evaluation in general, which helps with learning which cards are good and which aren't, which translates into better deck building in general
My izzet spellslinger deck felt so upgraded after such a small change; taking out reliquary tower and adding a thought vessel. Sounds kinda silly at first glance, but being able to ramp in the early game with rocks is huge for my later big mana turns. I still can’t bring myself to take out teferi’s ageless insight though… 😅
I challenge you a bit on Teferi’s Ageless though. Even in casual commander - if YOUR COMMANDER draws cards itself, even 1. Turning that into 2 with Teferi’s Ageless Insight is amazing. And you always have access to your commander so it isn’t ever “dead.” Edit: Glad you brought it up again later in the video. I play TAI with all the 1 mana “Cyclers” to fill up my graveyard. Cycling + cantrips are so fun with TAI.
I play Reliquary Tower in one deck, and it's because of three specific other cards: Necropotence, Null Profusion, and Recycle. With Necro, you don't have to discard into exile EOT, and with the other two, if you play the Tower after casting the enchantment, it overrides your hand size of 2.
I currently have 8 decks I play around with. Of those 8, I have and use Reliquary Tower in 2: My upgraded Deep Clue Sea (with added Detectives and more Clue synergy, as well as at least a handful of cards that care about hand size) and My Zethi, Arcane Blademaster (there are times where I want to keep my interaction in hand to use rather than discard it to the graveyard. It also partly runs on a Cycling engine, so it draws a lot of cards). In those decks, it is useful for multiple reasons, not just because they want to draw cards, but because they want a LOT of card draw to enable their game plan. Simply put, many of the best cards in DCS are triggered by card draw. Zethi is a spellslinging deck, so you want to be refueling your hand often and hold up removal.
Easy tip: take out “win mores”, add removal to fill the newly formed gap in the deck. Also greater good is a great way to discard creatures to reanimate in my Meren deck. I could sacrifice a Blood Artist to greater good and still get value. Also awesome synergy with dredge creatures.
I love this video. First of yours I've watched. And I learned this lesson in a weird way. I built a pirate themed deck when ixilan first came out. And everyone around me kept saying the deck was terrible looking at the floor of every card. Which was all steal/copy effects (piracy) but turns out having the best card on the board averaging the other 3 decks. Turns out is better than expected.
1:14 it's funny that you mention Crucible of Fire. In a Ganax, Astral Hunter deck that uses Fewild Visitor as its Background commander, you actually want CoF because you're making a bunch of 1/1 tokens that are Dragons. Usually, the tokens just get used as chump blockers, but with Crucible, they're 4/4, meaning you need less to block big things and can live against other small creatures.
Also, I found it funny you kept using Ur-Dragon as an example since that was the first edh deck I truly fell in love with it. (Dropped it because it didn't feel nuanced enough. That's why I play Ganax now.)
Thanks to your videos I made a commander deck of only cards from MOM with the commander Zurgo and Ojutai and no synergy other than himself. It was just good cards no synergy. And it was enough to get back to back wins cause it had good removal, good card draw. And it didn't need to go crazy just those things can put in the work.
i always watch your videos, and agree with your messages even though i've often dodged the problem in far stupider ways. i love reliquary tower because over 75% of my decks have normal card draw rates except for five to ten cards that read "Five Hundred Cigarettes - 1 mana - draw half your library" that only require the most basic setups that the whole deck uses.
I find that I have the reflex to put a Reliquary Tower in all my decks from back when Commander design was a lot more lax in its deckbuilding philosophy. Back then Reliquary Tower was pretty new, and a lot of people were still playing battlecruiser style decks, which often missed land drops and had several cards in their hands with high cmc. Since then, mana curves have gotten a lot tighter and lower as decks became more focused, and now Reliquary Tower is more of a bane than a boon in many decks. For me, though, I grew up playing with the old deckbuilding ways, and it's hard to break out of that. I do alright, though, and I still have it in some decks.
I’m much more particular about when to include Reliquary Tower and other “no max hand size cards” than I used to be. Most of the time, replacing those with recursion is way better. I think my Alandra deck is my only one with “no max hand size” stuff because it fuels her overrun effect. As for “do nothing” cards: I built a Naya enchantress deck a few years ago in which 32 of the 42ish enchantments were not auras or creatures, and the auras were almost all ramp. I keep it updated and still play it, and it is a beast in casual.
I will admit to running reliquary tower in more decks than I should have (have started to cut back). That being said, I love to draw cards and I tend to favor slower control decks. I love it in Queza and Kykar (my two most controlly decks), but yeah, most decks don't need it. Also, as you've said before in videos, its not about running win more cards or not, it's about not running a critical mass of them.
Reliquary Tower converts unknown information into mitigation especially if you run a healthy amount of card draw. Many players aren't willing to risk attacking into potential interaction, even if my hand is 6 Islands, Evolving Wilds and Sorrow's Path. In such games, Reliquary Tower's opportunity cost pays for itself.
Interesting I usually have the opposite experience. Most players don’t even think about the interaction they walk right into and I find the player with a ton of cards in hand to be the threat and I will focus them down
The funny thing about the ur-dragon and reliquary tower is that "ceiling" of reliquary tower where you have attacked and drew a bunch of cards that you want to keep, it means you attacked with a bunch of dragons. The game is either over or almost over if you just drew 10 cards. Not because now you have a ton of cards for whatever situation, but because you have a huge board. So the land is useless
One thing that comes to mind is that a lot of players aren't trying to build decks that maximize winning, but rather create the experience they want to have (which is fine in casual). The harder it "goes off", the more intense the experience. So people frequently favor thematic stuff/things meant to be fun/stuff that enhances the ceiling and story of the game over consistency. I also agree with the part where you mentioned people saying, "You should play..." This is almost always followed by a dubious suggestion for something kinda on theme or vaguely synergistic but not actually something bad to omit.
In addition: I give a card I like, I want to find a home for it. Is Nacatl War-Pride few beast card at 6 mana? No, no it's not. But I like it, and I play commander to play cards I like. Should I run Crackleburr in an already mana-hungry Riku of Two Reflections deck? Probably not, but the synergy is there and it makes me smile when it works. Metagames and winning are great, but having fun is better.
as far as Teferis insight goes, the only thing i feel like it should be used for in Blue is to pair with your commander who has to tap itself to draw a card or if it can only trigger once per turn
One of the things that makes Farewell so powerful is that if you’re way ahead and have a huge board… Farewell is still good. Your deck probably focuses on something that makes you win. If you Farewell for not-that, you have a huge swing in your favor that can turn the game in your favor. The creature deck sweeps away the pillow fort pieces, Shorikai clears away the creatures and artifacts while preserving thirty mana worth of artifacts, the planeswalkers deck wipes the board for the sixth time this game so that no one can poke their superfriends. Also the fact it’s, like, a ten mana card for six.
I agree with this point. You can't just evaluate a cards max potential, especially not in a vacuum. You have to consider hownt behaves in your specific deck and if it will actively contribute something to your games more times than not. For example, I have only 2 decks that play reliquary tower. One is Azami, Lady fo Scrolls who's entire goal is to draw your entire deck and I also have access to Harbinger of the Seas to make it an island when I want to go off with hightide or have established another no maximum handsize effect. The other is Massacre Girl, Known Killer because of how much it can draw cards as well and the fact I get to play Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth in the list to make it tap for black. In both cases the upside can be very large and the downsides can be mitigated.
I use reliquary tower in some of my decks. Some of those decks consistently draw a lot of cards every turn. But others don’t and will have an explosive turn. But I use it not necessarily because I want to keep the cards but because I don’t feel like spending time to discard to hand size and make everyone wait while I have 15+ cards in hand. Also in my Necrobloom deck I run Gitrog. And it’s so easy to get stuck in the combo on discard step so I have reliquary in there so I don’t get stuck in a loop and deck myself. (Didn’t want to build it combo as I have done the Gitrog thing a lot in the past) he is just good value. Great video!
I feel helm of the host, is sort of a win more, but doesn't become worthless unless it's spot removed. It just depends on the deck it's certainly a key card if your deck has a lot of ETB/Combat or its a win con for your commander (Aurelia). As it gives a good ETB repeater for consistency at the lower power level tables that isn't stuffed with tutors. But I do agree it's too often used because only the commander really benefits.
I run a Reliquary Tower in my Yargle and Multani deck, but I also run Greater Good. Being able to keep all 18 cards I drew plus what was already in my hand is great, but I know the deck well enough to know what a winning 7 look like. I remember the times I drew 36 or more cards in a turn and got to keep them all, as well as the ones I discarded down to seven. Both situations put you in a real good spot. Makes me wonder if Thought Vessel and Reliquary Tower are worth it
I love how I'm waiting for the video to end so I can explain why Teferi's ageless insight and reliquary tower belong in my Gin-Gitaxias cantrips deck and then you just so happen to make an exception for my specific archetype. It is also great because there is no other card like it. It's not like it's enhancer number 5. It is the only piece of card advantage in that deck that doesn't directly draw cards.
I think Terferi’s Ageless Insight absolutely has a home in certain decks, those decks being commanders that encourage looting effects (any of the connive commanders from SNC for example) - in those decks it turns your connives from card selection that sometimes get you a counter into genuine card advantage, the card does some work in a Raffine list and I play it in cedh Raffine. But yeah it shouldn’t just be jammed into any blue deck without a thought of synergy and I think the cases I’m talking about do have the synergy to justify them
I'm playing Teferi's Ageless Insight in my cycling deck with 40+ cycling cards; it's a real bomb there. It doesn't really fit in anything else I've ever built though :]
Reliquary Tower often seems good, but the higher your color requirements are, the less usable it is. It’s also frequently detrimental in something like a reanimator deck. I do use Reliquary Tower in my mono-black Gix deck because that deck enjoys having a big hand to chuck with Gix’s ability. Anything I want in the yard, can already make it there. And I don’t miss the color so much. Niv-Mizzet, Parun, on the other hand, cannot use Reliquary Tower, as his requirements for color are too strict.
I actually really like this one in my Borborygmos Enraged deck, because the common floor is significantly higher, and the true floor also significantly less likely. The true floor is that I've gotten *nothing* but colorless lands, which means that I have hit literally none of my ramp and can't bring out my commander. The more common floor is that Borborygmos is on the field, and I can simply throw it at something for 3 damage. The Ceiling is even higher, since it allows me to hold onto a game-altering (but not ending) amount of Instant-Speed damage until I have the killing stroke in hand.
I enjoy drawing a ton of cards, so I tend include the tower, and two or three other similar effects. But there are two decks that I intentionally left it out of, Slimefoot and squee, and Damia, because both of those decks want to use the end step for discarding if I end up with too many cards drawn.
Me: Sitting here next to a newly built 5 color deck with a Reliquary Tower in it "Hehe, that's me!". Also me: Looking at the fact I have some uber card draw engines, lots of tutors, multiple ways to make my lands tap for any color, and multiple rainbow mana dorks, I can definitely see where you are coming from but I am gonna keep my Reliquary Tower in this specific deck. I will keep what you've said here in mind in the future when building though, I can probably drop the Reliquary Tower out of some of the other decks I was thinking about brewing.
I run my Teferi's Ageless Insight in a Sidar deck. I draw and discard whenever my creatures attack, so that +-0 becomes a +1 every turn I get an attack off.
I think this is what it revolves around: I've noticed that since I started doing turn 4-5 combo decks I don't really bother with reliquary tower: If I'm not ready to close out once I cast most of my hand it means I didn't mulligan enough anyway. Even on casual decks I usually take either the new Prof's Eidetic Memory instead as a 2 CMC drop that draws one, removes hand size and rewards card draw with +1/+1 counters on top. On other situations I like Spellbook: It's still useful in a Stella Lee deck or any artifact deck just to get a 0 CMC arti drop anyway.
I’m not cutting teferi’s ageless insight from niv-on-wheels. Not only does it mean a ton of damage, but when you reduce the cost of already cheap spells you can play a ton of them. Cards in hand become a resource when your game plan is wheels. And if you draw it in the early game when it’s cumbersome to play, you can just pitch it to a tormenting voice-type spell and collect some land instead.
8:23 this right here is why I run the card in my acades walls deck. Most walls already have “ETB draw” and if Acades is also on board then I refill my hand back up for more walls to refill my board in the event I get wiped.
I used to run ReqTower and Helm in many decks; now they are only in 1: OG Kozilek. I discovered the trap, and found better things. But those do do work in Kozilek because, well, colorless utility has no downside, and do you know how awesome it is to have several Kozileks, Ulamogs, or Emrakuls on the board? I once had 3 Kozileks in a game that had gotten down to me and 1 other person. And there's no coming back from a 3-Kozilek swing.
Several times:
> me building a deck: "Panharmonicon makes this setup so busted"
> me actually: wishing I had anything other than Panharmonicon in my hand
Me: discarding panharmonicon in my Tivit deck because it’s the worst “win more” card in the deck.
I play it in my groot deck. As the deck spits out so much maná, I can play some winmlre cards. 3 is my too if it does nothing, but I also hedge my odds. See the phylath deck has etb ramp, and 2 mana ramp. So i can go t2 ramp, t3 harmonica, t4 wood elves, and other ramp.
I realized this after one or two games with Araumi. It looked like a bombastic value engine, but it was never going to happen.
Why have Panharmonicon in your 99 when it can be your comander with (Gandalf the white) and you can struggle anyways!
Yoooo someone help a brother out here! I just put panharmonicon in my precon Timeless Wisdom deck. I had to replace a hand full of cards in there because they are ass or don't go with the theme (cycling). Advice? I can post the deck list and I took some advice on the replacements but the deck feels weakkkkk.
Even tho I’m mostly a cedh player here, i am glad that so much more content is aiming at helping newer and casual players tighten up their lists
Then you are gonna love a video I have planned for later this month
One thing that shockingly seems to get so many Commander players out there is lost by decking.
I remember an episode or two of game knights where that actually happen. I was thinking at the time, boy... they really could have used a few cards to reshuffle all that back into the libraries.
That's kinda the point of casual not fully optimizing your list and just playing cards that are fun/that you just think are neat.
@@curtissearle6462 casual does not involve letting everybody else run away with the board. and that is exactly what is happening
@@unanon_user wasn't talking to you was talking to the main comment
I do indeed win more when I equip my Helm of the Host to Aurelia, the Warleader. In fact I usually win immediately.
I ran helm in my kaalia deck with the intention to make copies of kaalia, then i dropped aurellia into play and i had a sudden realization and went infinite caught all of us off guard
Does serious work in Galea if casted off the top or with sigardas aid or a paladin on field to equip for zero then it’s a 4 drop to go brrrrr
but my gremlin self wants to hold my library in my hand...
One of the best deck-building advice I've ever gotten is:
When adding a card to your deck, consider these three things:
1. Is this card a good draw when I'm behind?
2. Is it a good draw when situation is tense, grindy and even?
3. Is it a good draw when I'm ahead?
If you said 'yes' to at least two, the card is a strong contender to add! Very similar idea to your conclusion, framed differently.
The trap: Americans playing red/white/blue
I should’ve made that video
Oh god. I've failed.
I played my Elsha deck five times today and I didn't even realize
Liberty prime being in those colors specifically is my favorite flavor win
@@volosguidetomonsters3440you are very patriotic
Russians, French, Dutch and Norwegians too
You should know this is basically Quadrant Theory, something some pro players came up with for card evaluation a while ago. The essential idea is splitting your evaluation into 4 parts - Developing, Winning, Parity, and Losing. Figuring out which quadrants each card is strong in helps quantify the value of the card in your deck, etc etc.
I was thinking about having quadrant theory in the video but went with this because I think it flows better not needing to explain what a floor and ceiling is
@@thetrinketmage Makes sense, I figured I'd put that out there as like, additional reading lol
Congratulations on the Cool Stuff Inc. sponsorship! I'm happy to see some big companies have taken notice of your channel
Thanks I’m excited about it!
You say "You can't make a deck with just removal, ramp, and card draw" as you show a green, red, white, and blue spell... I smell an Aragorn build in the near future... I like to call it "Aragorn Only Eats Veggies"
That’s a fun idea of a deck! I did play him as a commander for a while
"You can't make a deck with just removal, ramp, and card draw".
Also this desribed my current Henzie List. It just happens, that all of those are on 8/8s that get haste from Henzie
@@naitsab_33 it mostly describes my third path iconoclast pedh deck. I just go wide really fast by casting a bunch of card draw. lol
A mate of mine built this. It's surprisingly strong
you can win if you play right commander. eteli doesnt need anything else than ramp. it wins with opponents cards and making it a blightsteel colossus. that new massacre girl all you removal draws cards 44 kill if opponents doesnt have anything on the board. just play couple win cons on top of those.
Absolutely agree. I built a Greasefang deck, with the plan of using discard engines to bin a giant vehicle and then use Greasefang to reanimate it, punch face, then when the vehicle jumps back to my hand I rinse and repeat.
I quickly realized that a "vehicle reanimator" deck doesn't work too well when your only way of reanimating big vehicles is stuck in your command zone all game after eating a buffet of removal or is turned into a 0/1 bug.
The thing is, any sensible opponent is not going to just let you do anything you want. After looking at my decklist with the expectation that my opponents are probably going to attempt to stop me from winning gave me a much more clear picture. As you say, there's no real one solution, and my answer was that I didn't need ALL the vehicles and the more greedier, "staple" cards ("surely every white deck should run Smothering Tithe & Ghostly Prison," I said...) and slot in a lot of protection, flickers and alternative discard pay-offs for my discard package when Greasefang isn't around. Flicker effects _especially_ made the deck run so much smoother, using it as a defensive way to protect Greasefang, or flicker my own vehicle to make it avoid Greasefang's bounce effect. Even though the term "Discard-Flicker-Vehicle-Reanimator Deck" sounds like an unsynergetic nightmare on paper, the reality is that every single card still goes towards the same game plan of "kill you with vehicles", and it's easily my most consistent and strongest deck nowadays.
Do you have this deck up on Moxfield? I would really like to see the deck list.
One thing I'd like to point out is that your middle of the road scenario with Teferi' Ageless Insight, where it doubles up some card draw but you don't end up using those extra cards, the enchantment is still doing something useful. Seeing extra cards, even ones you don't use, is good because it gives you more information to make decisions with and more options about what to play. Also, even if Insight draws you some useless cards, those are cards you were going to draw eventually anyway, so it had gotten past them in your deck and closer to good cards. I'm not saying the card should be played as much as it is, but the actual floor of doing NOTHING only ever occurs if you play it and then do not ever play any draw effects for the rest of the game, which seems very unlikely.
For all the people here convinced they still need Reliquary Tower, just run Thought Vessel and Decanter of Endless Water instead, there the floor is at least a rock that gets you ahead on mana instead of a land that cuts you off a color. Sure it feels less "free", but you need rocks/ramp anyway, you might as well use some for synergy.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I haven't actually had to discard a card due to having too many in hands in a hot minute and even if I did, I don't remember that as being a painful moment and I also probably won that game because I had so many cards in hand. If you can't win a game on like turn 6+ with a full grip of 7 cards after you drew like 10 or so... what are you even doing?
Yall are actually brain dead saying Reliquary Tower is bad
@@paulszkiit’s probably just your style of deck as well as the opponents you play because I have it happen at the bare minimum every other game and if it does it happens more than once in that game. Also my decks can be a little draw heavy. I want to sift through my deck to find pieces and I’d rather not lose any possible solutions, faints, or pieces to discarding in those decks.
@@hbsavage0387 I don't know, I'm unconvinced. Holding more than 7 cards in your hand on laters kind of just feels like you've spend a lot of effort doing nothing to the actual board. Like, cards in hand are still an usused resources until you actually get to use it. Remineds me of players in Starcraft, Age of Empires, Command & Conquer etc. having several thousand resources in their bank and not enough barracks to spend it.
I have a friend who constantly loses with a full grip of cards in his hand because it's all stuck there because it's all a tad to expensive so he can't cast more than one thing per turn.
I mean sure, if you're somehow magically ramping AND deploying threats AND drawing a bunch of cards, good on you... I guess but I honestly find it hard to belive.
Of course there's a couple of commanders that just enable full hands but my point still stands: If myy commander is online and doing their thing and I'm developing threats how am I not winning already and what are these "pieces and sollutions"? Develop your gameplan, remove some stuff, kick doors in. Are you setting up 5-card infinite combos?
@@paulszki a piece is a card that can be used to combo in one or more of the strategies your deck wants to deploy. Solutions are cards that solve a problem that a board state presents. Now on to the main thing as long as you don’t brick out on drawing ramp it’s pretty easy to keep your hand full and cards churning out that’s if you built the mana base right for the deck. Also there are so many different ways to get good consistent draw. Especially with commander staples like rhystic study and esper sentinel as well as a fair few cards that generate draw off of triggers such as attacking or something entering play. You can very well end up with getting more cards than you play and you still are pumping out cards. It honestly boils down to deck building and because I play online and free it allows me and my group to play more expensive cards that most paper players won’t have. I build my decks to have decent card draw just because I like being able to sift through my deck and get cards I need without being obvious with a tutor of some kind. It just boils down to deck design at the end of the day. I like being prepared thusly I have the card draw to get to my solutions, pieces, or faints.
I remember hearing someone say recently that Reliquary Tower should be an auto include in any deck. I really only ever had it in my Locust God deck that was centered around drawing cards. Thinking back on it, the only times I've had to discard to hand size, and I didn't want to, was when I was mana screwed.
I feel like it's auto include in my blue decks and my ravenous ride deck... but I can't understand why you'd want it in most decks, lol.
In "old" commander, it usually WAS "auto-include" because utility lands were fewer and farther between, games went longer, and the possibility of just having 8-10 cards in hand because of stalemating and pacing was not entirely off the table.
@@danielgoddu4673 There's some more decks where the opportunity cost is super low, so if you have a copy, it might be worth playing. Most mono, or low-pip dual decks will probably not sacrifice much. Now, a land that is 99% a basic wastes in a 5-colour deck, LOL.
Also when Jon gitaxis made its rounds amongst my friends and LGS. That way always a funny gotcha.
Reliquary Tower really needs to synergize with part of your deck's main game plan to justify its existence. Jin-Gitaxias // Great Synthesis where the commander's activated ability starts with "draw cards equal to the number of cards in your hand" - sure, absolutely.
Otherwise it's just this colorless land with a largely-useless passive ability that might compel you to mulligan. If you're looking at a starting hand in Grixis with Watery Grave, Swamp, Reliquary tower you'd probably very much rather ANY red source. Anything from basic mountain to tapped red/X dual to another shock/fetch for the high-budget brews... literally anything.
I run reliquary tower in my Ghalta primal hunger deck. In that deck you're using greater good and every other card that lets you draw for power, so you generally have 12+ cards in hand as early as turn 4
If you look at my Mina and Denn deck I play the tower cause of greater good and the deck needs colorless mana! There are places where it’s good
@@thetrinketmage I do heavily need the green mana tbh, it's a real sacrifice there. I just find that I draw so many cards that it's worth the risk. I just love being the green player with 30 cards in hand when I pass lol.
This reminds me of the one time I asked another player how he wants to get 8+ cards in hand after seeing the Tower in his Boros deck, back in 2015.
He was quickly enlightened that there are better cards out there.
Nowadays there are some Boros Commander that can draw you enough cards (Nelly Borca easily getting 10+ cards in hand makes Tower really good).
So in the reliquary tower example, it slots in for a land. Unless you are running 4 or 5 colors where you need to focus more on having all colors, very few times will you actually run into reliquary tower when you would have needed one of your missing colors. The only deck building requirement the tower asks is that you have one or multiple ways of consistently drawing cards. The opportunity cost in 3 or less colors is negligible and the potential upside is keeping all the cards you would have otherwise discarded. So throwing it in those decks has really no downsides
I was actually about to comment this exactly. With 5 color commanders (like The Ur-Dragon here) it's likely a much larger hindrance, but for most mono and two color commanders, throwing in a reliquary tower has a really small opportunity cost.
Yeah, I have yet to be screwed over by a Reliquary Tower since I started including it in decks with effective card draw
It slots in for a land. Like every other utility land. Unlike Reliquary tower Urza's Saga isn't equally or less beneficial than a basic wastes over 99% of games. The unfixing on reliquary tower is absolutely more impactful than what is effectively flavor text.
@zyxia6165 it's hard to follow what you are saying, but what I meant was that since reliquary tower slots in for a land, the opportunity cost is rather low. Unless you built your deck's mana base poorly or got super unlucky with a color spread in an opening hand, there won't be a time where you will necessarily be punished for a reliquary tower. I'll throw it in basically all of my 3 or less color decks if I even remotely have a chance of having more than 7 cards in hand because the only opportunity cost I'm giving up is having a basic or dual land which taps for colored mana which I alleviate by creating a strong mana base.
And what I'm saying is I disagree. You're underestimating both the cost of a colorless land and how useless the ability of the reliquary tower is. The opportunity cost of not playing almost literally any other land is very real
Teferi's Ageless Insight is really nice with Looters too. Draw two discard one cause you tapped a dude is pretty neat.
Yeah, I play Minn and I have almost every looter that doesn't suck in the deck. If I manage to get Ageless Insight in(usualy for 0 mana) it's an almost won game already.
@@912zap aaah, a fellow Minn player. I love her.
That's the reason I play it in my Aminatou deck. It makes her ability a weaker brainstorm, yet still netting me cards, not just replacing the top from my hand.
seagate restoration is the best example of this. it only draws you lots of cards if you already have lots of cards. tap out on my turn to draw cards when my hand is already full? no thanks.
YOOO Love your videos, demo! Cam you do a video on cards you think are over-rated, plz? Would love to see it!
I’ve actually never cast the flip side of the card yet. But I totally see your point with an empty hand it’s so much mana for one card!
The thing is with it being a double faced card is it is never truly dead even if you never cast the front.
The main advantage of Sea Gate Restoration is that it's a 7cmc land.
@@thetrinketmageI've cast it so many times in my mono blue Atemsis deck. I recently added overflowing insight just to have another similar effect. Love it.
I agree on this. The only deck I play helm of the host in is my Silumgar the Drifting Death deck because he has the hexproof to dodge that spot removal that would normally get thrown at him in response to the equip, and his -1/-1 ability gets multiplicatively better when duplicated, since each of them triggers off each dragon they see attacking and silumgar is of course a dragon itself. This makes the clone effect much better than in most decks. Sure its still a bit win more, but its also a great way to repeatedly duplicate other strong dragons in the deck considering I'm in dimir and my options are limited for that tribe.
Every time I see your pfp I always feel like I’m gonna read something negative but I like your comments they are really well written
@@thetrinketmage aw thanks 😁
You are so close to applying quadrant theory to EDH, something I recommend all players learn to do.
Also, Teferi's Ageless Insight only sees so much play because it's a budget card that makes your other budget card draw spells ALMOST as good as their nonbudget equivalents while it is in play. Some people just want a CHANCE to keep up with more expensive and usually more powerful decks. It's not the same, but I really can't fault them for trying. Sometimes, you just have to work with the tools you have, ya know?
Lastly, I think that the inclusion rate for Reliquary Tower is artificially inflated by the "precon effect." Let's face it, that card was included in every precon for a long time, and there is a growing movement to play more unmodified or only slightly upgraded sealed commander decks.
So I almost made this video with quadrant theory in the script but ended up changing it because I liked the ceiling floor analogy better for simplicity
@thetrinketmage fair point, although I do believe that some relevant nuance is lost in doing so. Still, it's your channel, and the art you present needs to be based on your judgment, so whatever you think is the best way to reach your audience is probably the right choice.
Teferi's ageless insight sees cedh play in decks like raffine
@@franslair2199 I'm sure it sees fringe cEDH play. Lots of cards do, but I was talking about why it sees so much play on EDHREC of which cEDH is only a small portion.
@@majinvegeta6364 you're saying it's a shit card that people are trying to play because it seems good but isn't. You don't know what you're talking about.
With some staples in decks, I throw them into mine if they won't hurt too much when drawn early because they're the red herrings of my deck. I tend to build strange decks with strange cards, so when my opponents at the table see a staple, they typically go and destroy/remove/counter that one because they're experienced with that card. I don't mind losing those cards too much, even though they still bring some value to my deck, because that way I keep the real stars save. Worked quite well for months by now, even with people who have gotten to know my decks by now.
The only deck I run reliquary tower in is my Narset enlightened exile deck and this video is making me look at it more critically.
The negatives, as you have highlighted, are that it's a colorless land for my three color deck without green which can make it hard to cast some spells, and that at the end of the day discarding spells to the graveyard isn't all that bad because I can reuse them with Narset.
BUT, on the contrary, I kinda like how it removes one decision point that I don't have to think about, and with all the triggers I have to keep track of, the ordering of spell slinging and deciding what mana to leave up for instant interaction I actually like having one fewer thing to worry about. Also narset is one of the decks that, in my experience has a strong correlation between big hand size and having a lot of creatures on the board, so I really want to keep both protection spells, cantrips and big buff spells all at the same time.
So while I agree that a lot of players get too focused on the highest ceiling instead of the average floor, I think that you're underestimating a bit how "comfortable" certain cards can make you feel, especially if you have to account for a lot of things having (sometimes) less mental load is worthwhile on its own
I draw a lot of cards in group hug Zedruu. But I don't play Reliquary Tower, you know why? If I have ten or fifteen cards in hand, people might be scared of me, even if I have like two protection spells, three creatures, a Propaganda, and a ton of lands.
But those magical words, "discard to hand size," takes half the target off youe back.
A couple players' turns later, you'll be asked "how many cards in hand?" and you'll say "seven" and they'll go "oh yeah, that's a normal number of cards. Not so scary."
While I agree it removes the target off your back, if you have 30 cards in hand you can fight off 3 players and still have cards to play when they run out. My win con in most of my decks is to just draw 30+ cards and grind the table slowly through attrition into conceding. I dont like combos, and I love control!
@@matd2892 I personally use those 30+ cards to do my combo while keeping the pieces safe. Doing stuff like Windfall into Lab Man.
@@matd2892 this works too! It depends if your goal is to fly under the radar and win at the end, or to become archenemy and fight everyone.
I had a Niv-Mizzet Parun who could fight the table, and that was a Reliquary Tower deck for sure (despite the awkwardness with his mana cost)
I agree! Though on the relinquary tower, there are definetely places for it. No just don't stuff it in any deck, but it can be very powerful in draw-centered decks. I run it in my rielle deck for example, which allows me to set up game-winning turns by having tons of cards to discard in an opponents turn. Even while the floor is low, playing a colorless land is usually not a significant downside which is why i think people still play this card in the most random decks
Thankfully, because of my time playing yugioh I already had experience w/ ensuring that most cards accomplished something on their own before coming to magic..
But my lord EDH has soooooooo many more temptations for this, I especially love it when old cards just kindaaaaa fit in. But then when I need space for cards that actually further my strategy, I look at the first card and go "Nope, thats my favourite piece," look at the next one "No, thats also my favourite," next one, "I just haaaave to keep this in its so good when it works!"
I run Ageless Insight in one deck, it’s my Zedruu Wedding Ring deck. The floor is that I draw into my pieces faster, the ceiling is that I give it to the opponent with the biggest library and watch the fear enter their eyes as everyone but me at least has 2 Wedding Rings or a Wedding Ring and a draw doubler (I’ll just have a Wedding Ring) when there’s a Teferi’s Puzzle Box (or multiple draw more cards effects) on board and they started to draw at an alarming rate. It’s a deck full of synergy, pillowfort, removal, and win more that I like to describe as “I’m giving you the answers, can you beat me before you draw out?” and teaches players the value of removal.
Reliquary Tower, the bane of my existence.
I think I have discarded to hand size...one time in all the EDH games I've played, and I did not care because I still had 7.
I always see it and go "This is literally making your deck worse, person."
Maybe it's okay in like an Azami deck, but I say "That's not a precon it doesn't have to pretend to be one"
See I’m pretty much the inverse. I regularly run it my group hug Bant and Az decks. It’s a great piece of redundancy since land destruction is rarer than other types.
I am also the opposite of this, with The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride, I often end my turns with well over 8 cards in hand and I'm either thankful for hitting tower, or wishing I hit tower
kinda agree
How little EDH and/card draw do you play where you've only discarded to hand size once? Cyclonic Rift exists, Sphinx's Revelation exists, Necropotence exists, Rhystic Study/Mystic Remora/Esper Sentinel exist, etc. I discard to hand size probably once every 10 games. I do agree that Reliquary Tower shouldn't be played outside of 2 or less color decks where you plan on drawing an absurd amount of cards, as in it's what your commander does.
I appreciate the analysis being more than “Reliquary Tower bad”
Not me looking at the Reliquary Tower I put into an Emry deck like "maybe I can just use another Island"
These videos are always very thoughtful and appreciated. It’s nice that there are channels that are still contributing valuable insights into the format.
Great video as always.
I recently removed "Teferis Ageless Insight" from my Anowon (Dimir Rogues Tribal) Deck, because I realized it mostly only works with my commander and is worse than a "Bident of Thassa".
Same with "Helm of the Host" in Zhulodok, it is just an overkill.
And Zhulodok is a "Convince the Omnath player to join you and kill them before Zhulodok enters the stack" kind of deck
really liked this video. I myself have been playing for a long time (1993) and had to figure these things out the hard way. Great that you're offering new players a toolbox for building their deck better!
I have Reliquary Tower in 2 decks for very specific reasons. My Azami, Lady of Scrolls cEDH/High Powet deck has powerful effects that reward my large hand sizes. Oftentimes I will have upwards of 20 cards and being able to pitch cards with Dream Halls is super effective. My second deck is Ranar, the Ever-watchful, and it is one of a dozen colorless mana producers to enable Eldrazi Displacer. If I were to remove the Displacer, it would come out in a heartbeat.
5:12 LMAO perfect choice of card to show
As a side note I love Teferi's Ageless Insight in my esper Connive deck. It works incredibly well with looting effects in general since it turns filtering into true card advantage.
Another thing about Reliquary Tower that some people don't consider is that in any Graveyard deck you might actually WANT to discard to hand size to be able to pitch things to your graveyard
He mentions this in the video
oops missed that line in the vid ahaha. Either way totally agree
I totally agree. Though I doubt you're going to circle around, if you ever talk about "teferi's ageless insight" again, it has a much stronger synergy with commanders that themselves cantrip. "Sidar Jabari of Zhalfir" becomes a powerhouse when combined with cards like it and "The council of 4". It's also great in something like "Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer", where you're using it with a morph/colorless cost reducer and a flash enabler to ensure you can play your whole deck.
I was gonna cut it from my shorikai deck, because it was a bit too good, from the point it almost made me lose the game
"you can't make a deck with only removal, ramp and card draw" That's my favorite kind of deck!
Great analysis. I’ve been trying to make my deck’s power level more consistent and things are this have been on my mind. Keep up the good work.
This is essentially a specific version of "situational" cards but a great aspect to keep on mind while building.
It’s great seeing videos aiding newer players, I mostly play a ton of destruction/prison decks, so they need all the help they can get when faced with someone whose threats are just board wipes & using Emblems as win cons.
Someone suggested I run Reliquary Tower in my Goreclaw deck which can and often does draw a ton of cards. I'm not ruling out ever adding it, but I'm generally only ever discarding excess forests so it doesn't really do anything for me except make me look scarier than I actually am.
I run it in my Goreclaw list. It's not the best, but atleast it's a little insurance in case you have to rebuild after your pop-off board gets wiped. My deck is extremely greedy, though, so I don't know if it's the best example, lol.
the only deck i include any "no max hand size" cards is my baba lysaga deck, in which i want to trigger her 1-2 times per turn, drawing me 4-7 cards a turn. i dont absolutely need reliquary tower or thought vessel in the deck, but i think that they are valid in that deck as the no max hand actually does help out somewhat, and when it does do nothing having a colorless land/colorless mana rock isnt hurting my deck at all
this video has inspired me to re-evaluate my cEDH decklist and make improvements. great job bro 👏🏼
Thank you, I had an experience where I built a $500+ token deck and then when I tested it it was really terrible. I had a bunch of those expensive win more cards that seemed obvious to me at the time, but I constantly ran into situations where I didn't want to play something because I need to play all these other things first for it to be "optimal". Then I built a budget version of that deck and it was a lot better, I didn't understand why at the time, but after seeing your videos I can see that it was because I focused too much on synergy and not enough on interaction. I cut a lot of that synergy for interaction for price reasons, but it actually was what the deck needed.
I don't need to win more, I need to win the most. That's why I'm putting my helm of the host on my craterhoof behemoth
While watching this I started taking a look through one of the decks I have and got to Warren Soultrader right as it got on the screen. Was a real neat experience
My friend recently told me to take out everything that only gives me secondary value, and that really resonates with what you're saying.
This is why Grolnok the Omnivore is a funny commander. It's full of cards that are give you insane card advantage if the frog is out, but do nothing or are actively detrimental if it's not.
So in the group I play (casual modern like setting, with FFA being common similar to commander), the Crucible of Fire works very well in the dragon deck that someone else has. The critical detail here is that are not only playing large dangerous dragons, but also some smaller dragons that help block/discurage attackers early, and which helps ramp them up (either directly or through dragon spells costing less). When this comes down, all those small dragons go from cute supports to medium threats themselves, and the dragons they can put down end up being even more dangerous. It is also important to note that there is also beast ramp deck in the group, and this enchantment makes it possible for the dragons to easily block a lot of those powerful beasts, which can kind of win it the game, as the beast deck has to wait for a finisher card, while it can send its flyers in and start taking others down.
its funny, I actually run Teferi's Ageless Insight in my Sidar Jabari deck specifically for the example you used in this video, because all of my knights cantrip when they attack its super useful for digging for more knights to discard to reanimate
Oh with that commander you will almost never actually have the card do nothing so it’s a perfect include!
And it's a flavor win!
I am glad you are talking about this. Most of the people I end up helping with decklist fixes only focus on the ceiling and explaining to them how the ceiling doesn't matter if there is not a good floor to support can sometimes be quite hard(I'm convinced over 90% of MTG players are denser than nuclear pasta). Side note, reliquary tower is a trash card, even in a deck that has a goal of getting a 50 card hand.
Thank you for the Ageless Insight example. I've pointed to others that it's a trap card in a lot of decks because they see their commander has "Draw a card" somewhere on it. Paying four mana for nothing until that commander trigger happens gives a lot of opportunity for your opponents to interact in a way that denies the cards you wanted.
Just play a normal draw spell or a synergy piece.
Another great argument I've heard against running Reliquary Tower is that discarding helps teach card evaluation in general, which helps with learning which cards are good and which aren't, which translates into better deck building in general
My izzet spellslinger deck felt so upgraded after such a small change; taking out reliquary tower and adding a thought vessel. Sounds kinda silly at first glance, but being able to ramp in the early game with rocks is huge for my later big mana turns.
I still can’t bring myself to take out teferi’s ageless insight though… 😅
Great to see you getting sponsors! Love the content!!
I challenge you a bit on Teferi’s Ageless though.
Even in casual commander - if YOUR COMMANDER draws cards itself, even 1. Turning that into 2 with Teferi’s Ageless Insight is amazing. And you always have access to your commander so it isn’t ever “dead.”
Edit: Glad you brought it up again later in the video. I play TAI with all the 1 mana “Cyclers” to fill up my graveyard. Cycling + cantrips are so fun with TAI.
I need some context have you finished the video yet? Cause I do kind of address your point if you only saw the first time I mention the card
I play Reliquary Tower in one deck, and it's because of three specific other cards: Necropotence, Null Profusion, and Recycle.
With Necro, you don't have to discard into exile EOT, and with the other two, if you play the Tower after casting the enchantment, it overrides your hand size of 2.
I currently have 8 decks I play around with. Of those 8, I have and use Reliquary Tower in 2: My upgraded Deep Clue Sea (with added Detectives and more Clue synergy, as well as at least a handful of cards that care about hand size) and My Zethi, Arcane Blademaster (there are times where I want to keep my interaction in hand to use rather than discard it to the graveyard. It also partly runs on a Cycling engine, so it draws a lot of cards). In those decks, it is useful for multiple reasons, not just because they want to draw cards, but because they want a LOT of card draw to enable their game plan. Simply put, many of the best cards in DCS are triggered by card draw. Zethi is a spellslinging deck, so you want to be refueling your hand often and hold up removal.
It's funny to see these types of conversations come up in edh when this evaluation standard has been used in legacy forever
Easy tip: take out “win mores”, add removal to fill the newly formed gap in the deck.
Also greater good is a great way to discard creatures to reanimate in my Meren deck. I could sacrifice a Blood Artist to greater good and still get value. Also awesome synergy with dredge creatures.
"You can't make a deck with just removal, ramp, and card draw"
Baral with 67 instants enter the game
I love this video. First of yours I've watched. And I learned this lesson in a weird way. I built a pirate themed deck when ixilan first came out. And everyone around me kept saying the deck was terrible looking at the floor of every card. Which was all steal/copy effects (piracy) but turns out having the best card on the board averaging the other 3 decks. Turns out is better than expected.
I’m glad you liked the video! Who was the commander for that deck?
@thetrinketmage the original admiral beckett brass. Wasn't super great but worked
1:14 it's funny that you mention Crucible of Fire.
In a Ganax, Astral Hunter deck that uses Fewild Visitor as its Background commander, you actually want CoF because you're making a bunch of 1/1 tokens that are Dragons. Usually, the tokens just get used as chump blockers, but with Crucible, they're 4/4, meaning you need less to block big things and can live against other small creatures.
Also, I found it funny you kept using Ur-Dragon as an example since that was the first edh deck I truly fell in love with it. (Dropped it because it didn't feel nuanced enough. That's why I play Ganax now.)
Thanks to your videos I made a commander deck of only cards from MOM with the commander Zurgo and Ojutai and no synergy other than himself. It was just good cards no synergy. And it was enough to get back to back wins cause it had good removal, good card draw. And it didn't need to go crazy just those things can put in the work.
i always watch your videos, and agree with your messages even though i've often dodged the problem in far stupider ways. i love reliquary tower because over 75% of my decks have normal card draw rates except for five to ten cards that read "Five Hundred Cigarettes - 1 mana - draw half your library" that only require the most basic setups that the whole deck uses.
I find that I have the reflex to put a Reliquary Tower in all my decks from back when Commander design was a lot more lax in its deckbuilding philosophy. Back then Reliquary Tower was pretty new, and a lot of people were still playing battlecruiser style decks, which often missed land drops and had several cards in their hands with high cmc. Since then, mana curves have gotten a lot tighter and lower as decks became more focused, and now Reliquary Tower is more of a bane than a boon in many decks. For me, though, I grew up playing with the old deckbuilding ways, and it's hard to break out of that. I do alright, though, and I still have it in some decks.
I’m much more particular about when to include Reliquary Tower and other “no max hand size cards” than I used to be. Most of the time, replacing those with recursion is way better. I think my Alandra deck is my only one with “no max hand size” stuff because it fuels her overrun effect.
As for “do nothing” cards: I built a Naya enchantress deck a few years ago in which 32 of the 42ish enchantments were not auras or creatures, and the auras were almost all ramp. I keep it updated and still play it, and it is a beast in casual.
I will admit to running reliquary tower in more decks than I should have (have started to cut back). That being said, I love to draw cards and I tend to favor slower control decks. I love it in Queza and Kykar (my two most controlly decks), but yeah, most decks don't need it. Also, as you've said before in videos, its not about running win more cards or not, it's about not running a critical mass of them.
I run *a lot* of no max hand size cards in Guff but that's because Guff just churns through so many cards and can put so many of them out.
Reliquary Tower converts unknown information into mitigation especially if you run a healthy amount of card draw. Many players aren't willing to risk attacking into potential interaction, even if my hand is 6 Islands, Evolving Wilds and Sorrow's Path. In such games, Reliquary Tower's opportunity cost pays for itself.
Interesting I usually have the opposite experience. Most players don’t even think about the interaction they walk right into and I find the player with a ton of cards in hand to be the threat and I will focus them down
In my group if someone has 14 cards in hand and there isn't an immediate game ending threat on the board, we are focusing that person down.
The funny thing about the ur-dragon and reliquary tower is that "ceiling" of reliquary tower where you have attacked and drew a bunch of cards that you want to keep, it means you attacked with a bunch of dragons. The game is either over or almost over if you just drew 10 cards. Not because now you have a ton of cards for whatever situation, but because you have a huge board. So the land is useless
One thing that comes to mind is that a lot of players aren't trying to build decks that maximize winning, but rather create the experience they want to have (which is fine in casual). The harder it "goes off", the more intense the experience. So people frequently favor thematic stuff/things meant to be fun/stuff that enhances the ceiling and story of the game over consistency.
I also agree with the part where you mentioned people saying, "You should play..." This is almost always followed by a dubious suggestion for something kinda on theme or vaguely synergistic but not actually something bad to omit.
In addition: I give a card I like, I want to find a home for it. Is Nacatl War-Pride few beast card at 6 mana? No, no it's not. But I like it, and I play commander to play cards I like.
Should I run Crackleburr in an already mana-hungry Riku of Two Reflections deck? Probably not, but the synergy is there and it makes me smile when it works.
Metagames and winning are great, but having fun is better.
as far as Teferis insight goes, the only thing i feel like it should be used for in Blue is to pair with your commander who has to tap itself to draw a card or if it can only trigger once per turn
Excellent topic. I just pulled Legion Loyalty from my Caesar deck, because I NEVER had it when it could be useful.
One of the things that makes Farewell so powerful is that if you’re way ahead and have a huge board… Farewell is still good.
Your deck probably focuses on something that makes you win. If you Farewell for not-that, you have a huge swing in your favor that can turn the game in your favor. The creature deck sweeps away the pillow fort pieces, Shorikai clears away the creatures and artifacts while preserving thirty mana worth of artifacts, the planeswalkers deck wipes the board for the sixth time this game so that no one can poke their superfriends.
Also the fact it’s, like, a ten mana card for six.
I agree with this point. You can't just evaluate a cards max potential, especially not in a vacuum. You have to consider hownt behaves in your specific deck and if it will actively contribute something to your games more times than not. For example, I have only 2 decks that play reliquary tower. One is Azami, Lady fo Scrolls who's entire goal is to draw your entire deck and I also have access to Harbinger of the Seas to make it an island when I want to go off with hightide or have established another no maximum handsize effect. The other is Massacre Girl, Known Killer because of how much it can draw cards as well and the fact I get to play Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth in the list to make it tap for black. In both cases the upside can be very large and the downsides can be mitigated.
I love all of your videos they are awesome and refreshing different take to attack everything in a more understanding way
I use reliquary tower in some of my decks. Some of those decks consistently draw a lot of cards every turn. But others don’t and will have an explosive turn. But I use it not necessarily because I want to keep the cards but because I don’t feel like spending time to discard to hand size and make everyone wait while I have 15+ cards in hand. Also in my Necrobloom deck I run Gitrog. And it’s so easy to get stuck in the combo on discard step so I have reliquary in there so I don’t get stuck in a loop and deck myself. (Didn’t want to build it combo as I have done the Gitrog thing a lot in the past) he is just good value. Great video!
I feel helm of the host, is sort of a win more, but doesn't become worthless unless it's spot removed. It just depends on the deck it's certainly a key card if your deck has a lot of ETB/Combat or its a win con for your commander (Aurelia). As it gives a good ETB repeater for consistency at the lower power level tables that isn't stuffed with tutors. But I do agree it's too often used because only the commander really benefits.
I run a Reliquary Tower in my Yargle and Multani deck, but I also run Greater Good. Being able to keep all 18 cards I drew plus what was already in my hand is great, but I know the deck well enough to know what a winning 7 look like.
I remember the times I drew 36 or more cards in a turn and got to keep them all, as well as the ones I discarded down to seven. Both situations put you in a real good spot.
Makes me wonder if Thought Vessel and Reliquary Tower are worth it
I love how I'm waiting for the video to end so I can explain why Teferi's ageless insight and reliquary tower belong in my Gin-Gitaxias cantrips deck and then you just so happen to make an exception for my specific archetype.
It is also great because there is no other card like it. It's not like it's enhancer number 5. It is the only piece of card advantage in that deck that doesn't directly draw cards.
I think Terferi’s Ageless Insight absolutely has a home in certain decks, those decks being commanders that encourage looting effects (any of the connive commanders from SNC for example) - in those decks it turns your connives from card selection that sometimes get you a counter into genuine card advantage, the card does some work in a Raffine list and I play it in cedh Raffine. But yeah it shouldn’t just be jammed into any blue deck without a thought of synergy and I think the cases I’m talking about do have the synergy to justify them
I'm playing Teferi's Ageless Insight in my cycling deck with 40+ cycling cards; it's a real bomb there. It doesn't really fit in anything else I've ever built though :]
Reliquary Tower often seems good, but the higher your color requirements are, the less usable it is. It’s also frequently detrimental in something like a reanimator deck.
I do use Reliquary Tower in my mono-black Gix deck because that deck enjoys having a big hand to chuck with Gix’s ability. Anything I want in the yard, can already make it there. And I don’t miss the color so much.
Niv-Mizzet, Parun, on the other hand, cannot use Reliquary Tower, as his requirements for color are too strict.
I actually really like this one in my Borborygmos Enraged deck, because the common floor is significantly higher, and the true floor also significantly less likely.
The true floor is that I've gotten *nothing* but colorless lands, which means that I have hit literally none of my ramp and can't bring out my commander. The more common floor is that Borborygmos is on the field, and I can simply throw it at something for 3 damage. The Ceiling is even higher, since it allows me to hold onto a game-altering (but not ending) amount of Instant-Speed damage until I have the killing stroke in hand.
I enjoy drawing a ton of cards, so I tend include the tower, and two or three other similar effects. But there are two decks that I intentionally left it out of, Slimefoot and squee, and Damia, because both of those decks want to use the end step for discarding if I end up with too many cards drawn.
Teferi’s Ageless Insight is amazing with cards that passively (or at a small cost recurrably) draw a single card
Reliquary tower is my dirty habit
Me: Sitting here next to a newly built 5 color deck with a Reliquary Tower in it "Hehe, that's me!".
Also me: Looking at the fact I have some uber card draw engines, lots of tutors, multiple ways to make my lands tap for any color, and multiple rainbow mana dorks, I can definitely see where you are coming from but I am gonna keep my Reliquary Tower in this specific deck. I will keep what you've said here in mind in the future when building though, I can probably drop the Reliquary Tower out of some of the other decks I was thinking about brewing.
I run my Teferi's Ageless Insight in a Sidar deck. I draw and discard whenever my creatures attack, so that +-0 becomes a +1 every turn I get an attack off.
If you can’t win the game with the best 7 cards, you can’t win the game.
I think this is what it revolves around: I've noticed that since I started doing turn 4-5 combo decks I don't really bother with reliquary tower: If I'm not ready to close out once I cast most of my hand it means I didn't mulligan enough anyway. Even on casual decks I usually take either the new Prof's Eidetic Memory instead as a 2 CMC drop that draws one, removes hand size and rewards card draw with +1/+1 counters on top. On other situations I like Spellbook: It's still useful in a Stella Lee deck or any artifact deck just to get a 0 CMC arti drop anyway.
I’m not cutting teferi’s ageless insight from niv-on-wheels. Not only does it mean a ton of damage, but when you reduce the cost of already cheap spells you can play a ton of them. Cards in hand become a resource when your game plan is wheels. And if you draw it in the early game when it’s cumbersome to play, you can just pitch it to a tormenting voice-type spell and collect some land instead.
I'm pretty new to magic in general this vid helped me a lot since right now I'm just starting to finish up my list.
One thing you're missing: Reliquary Tower, Sol Ring, etc get printed all the time in recons.
8:23 this right here is why I run the card in my acades walls deck. Most walls already have “ETB draw” and if Acades is also on board then I refill my hand back up for more walls to refill my board in the event I get wiped.
do nothing win more cards are like having a graphic designer in your group research project
That’s a really good analogy
I used to run ReqTower and Helm in many decks; now they are only in 1: OG Kozilek. I discovered the trap, and found better things. But those do do work in Kozilek because, well, colorless utility has no downside, and do you know how awesome it is to have several Kozileks, Ulamogs, or Emrakuls on the board? I once had 3 Kozileks in a game that had gotten down to me and 1 other person. And there's no coming back from a 3-Kozilek swing.
“You can’t make a deck of just removal, ramp, and card draw” my Azorious 1for1 control deck begs to differ (Raff Weatherlight Stalwart).
Grats on the sponsorship!