The #1 EDH Deckbuilding Trap
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- #mtg #thetrinketmage #trinketmage #magicthegathering
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Several times:
> me building a deck: "Panharmonicon makes this setup so busted"
> me actually: wishing I had anything other than Panharmonicon in my hand
Me: discarding panharmonicon in my Tivit deck because it’s the worst “win more” card in the deck.
I play it in my groot deck. As the deck spits out so much maná, I can play some winmlre cards. 3 is my too if it does nothing, but I also hedge my odds. See the phylath deck has etb ramp, and 2 mana ramp. So i can go t2 ramp, t3 harmonica, t4 wood elves, and other ramp.
I realized this after one or two games with Araumi. It looked like a bombastic value engine, but it was never going to happen.
Why have Panharmonicon in your 99 when it can be your comander with (Gandalf the white) and you can struggle anyways!
Yoooo someone help a brother out here! I just put panharmonicon in my precon Timeless Wisdom deck. I had to replace a hand full of cards in there because they are ass or don't go with the theme (cycling). Advice? I can post the deck list and I took some advice on the replacements but the deck feels weakkkkk.
The trap: Americans playing red/white/blue
I should’ve made that video
Oh god. I've failed.
I played my Elsha deck five times today and I didn't even realize
Liberty prime being in those colors specifically is my favorite flavor win
@@volosguidetomonsters3440you are very patriotic
Russians, French, Dutch and Norwegians too
but my gremlin self wants to hold my library in my hand...
I do indeed win more when I equip my Helm of the Host to Aurelia, the Warleader. In fact I usually win immediately.
I ran helm in my kaalia deck with the intention to make copies of kaalia, then i dropped aurellia into play and i had a sudden realization and went infinite caught all of us off guard
Does serious work in Galea if casted off the top or with sigardas aid or a paladin on field to equip for zero then it’s a 4 drop to go brrrrr
Even tho I’m mostly a cedh player here, i am glad that so much more content is aiming at helping newer and casual players tighten up their lists
Then you are gonna love a video I have planned for later this month
One thing that shockingly seems to get so many Commander players out there is lost by decking.
I remember an episode or two of game knights where that actually happen. I was thinking at the time, boy... they really could have used a few cards to reshuffle all that back into the libraries.
That's kinda the point of casual not fully optimizing your list and just playing cards that are fun/that you just think are neat.
@@curtissearle6462 casual does not involve letting everybody else run away with the board. and that is exactly what is happening
@@unanon_user wasn't talking to you was talking to the main comment
You say "You can't make a deck with just removal, ramp, and card draw" as you show a green, red, white, and blue spell... I smell an Aragorn build in the near future... I like to call it "Aragorn Only Eats Veggies"
That’s a fun idea of a deck! I did play him as a commander for a while
"You can't make a deck with just removal, ramp, and card draw".
Also this desribed my current Henzie List. It just happens, that all of those are on 8/8s that get haste from Henzie
@@naitsab_33 it mostly describes my third path iconoclast pedh deck. I just go wide really fast by casting a bunch of card draw. lol
A mate of mine built this. It's surprisingly strong
Congratulations on the Cool Stuff Inc. sponsorship! I'm happy to see some big companies have taken notice of your channel
Thanks I’m excited about it!
For all the people here convinced they still need Reliquary Tower, just run Thought Vessel and Decanter of Endless Water instead, there the floor is at least a rock that gets you ahead on mana instead of a land that cuts you off a color. Sure it feels less "free", but you need rocks/ramp anyway, you might as well use some for synergy.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I haven't actually had to discard a card due to having too many in hands in a hot minute and even if I did, I don't remember that as being a painful moment and I also probably won that game because I had so many cards in hand. If you can't win a game on like turn 6+ with a full grip of 7 cards after you drew like 10 or so... what are you even doing?
Yall are actually brain dead saying Reliquary Tower is bad
@@paulszkiit’s probably just your style of deck as well as the opponents you play because I have it happen at the bare minimum every other game and if it does it happens more than once in that game. Also my decks can be a little draw heavy. I want to sift through my deck to find pieces and I’d rather not lose any possible solutions, faints, or pieces to discarding in those decks.
@@hbsavage0387 I don't know, I'm unconvinced. Holding more than 7 cards in your hand on laters kind of just feels like you've spend a lot of effort doing nothing to the actual board. Like, cards in hand are still an usused resources until you actually get to use it. Remineds me of players in Starcraft, Age of Empires, Command & Conquer etc. having several thousand resources in their bank and not enough barracks to spend it.
I have a friend who constantly loses with a full grip of cards in his hand because it's all stuck there because it's all a tad to expensive so he can't cast more than one thing per turn.
I mean sure, if you're somehow magically ramping AND deploying threats AND drawing a bunch of cards, good on you... I guess but I honestly find it hard to belive.
Of course there's a couple of commanders that just enable full hands but my point still stands: If myy commander is online and doing their thing and I'm developing threats how am I not winning already and what are these "pieces and sollutions"? Develop your gameplan, remove some stuff, kick doors in. Are you setting up 5-card infinite combos?
@@paulszki a piece is a card that can be used to combo in one or more of the strategies your deck wants to deploy. Solutions are cards that solve a problem that a board state presents. Now on to the main thing as long as you don’t brick out on drawing ramp it’s pretty easy to keep your hand full and cards churning out that’s if you built the mana base right for the deck. Also there are so many different ways to get good consistent draw. Especially with commander staples like rhystic study and esper sentinel as well as a fair few cards that generate draw off of triggers such as attacking or something entering play. You can very well end up with getting more cards than you play and you still are pumping out cards. It honestly boils down to deck building and because I play online and free it allows me and my group to play more expensive cards that most paper players won’t have. I build my decks to have decent card draw just because I like being able to sift through my deck and get cards I need without being obvious with a tutor of some kind. It just boils down to deck design at the end of the day. I like being prepared thusly I have the card draw to get to my solutions, pieces, or faints.
I remember hearing someone say recently that Reliquary Tower should be an auto include in any deck. I really only ever had it in my Locust God deck that was centered around drawing cards. Thinking back on it, the only times I've had to discard to hand size, and I didn't want to, was when I was mana screwed.
I feel like it's auto include in my blue decks and my ravenous ride deck... but I can't understand why you'd want it in most decks, lol.
In "old" commander, it usually WAS "auto-include" because utility lands were fewer and farther between, games went longer, and the possibility of just having 8-10 cards in hand because of stalemating and pacing was not entirely off the table.
@@danielgoddu4673 There's some more decks where the opportunity cost is super low, so if you have a copy, it might be worth playing. Most mono, or low-pip dual decks will probably not sacrifice much. Now, a land that is 99% a basic wastes in a 5-colour deck, LOL.
Also when Jon gitaxis made its rounds amongst my friends and LGS. That way always a funny gotcha.
Reliquary Tower really needs to synergize with part of your deck's main game plan to justify its existence. Jin-Gitaxias // Great Synthesis where the commander's activated ability starts with "draw cards equal to the number of cards in your hand" - sure, absolutely.
Otherwise it's just this colorless land with a largely-useless passive ability that might compel you to mulligan. If you're looking at a starting hand in Grixis with Watery Grave, Swamp, Reliquary tower you'd probably very much rather ANY red source. Anything from basic mountain to tapped red/X dual to another shock/fetch for the high-budget brews... literally anything.
Absolutely agree. I built a Greasefang deck, with the plan of using discard engines to bin a giant vehicle and then use Greasefang to reanimate it, punch face, then when the vehicle jumps back to my hand I rinse and repeat.
I quickly realized that a "vehicle reanimator" deck doesn't work too well when your only way of reanimating big vehicles is stuck in your command zone all game after eating a buffet of removal or is turned into a 0/1 bug.
The thing is, any sensible opponent is not going to just let you do anything you want. After looking at my decklist with the expectation that my opponents are probably going to attempt to stop me from winning gave me a much more clear picture. As you say, there's no real one solution, and my answer was that I didn't need ALL the vehicles and the more greedier, "staple" cards ("surely every white deck should run Smothering Tithe & Ghostly Prison," I said...) and slot in a lot of protection, flickers and alternative discard pay-offs for my discard package when Greasefang isn't around. Flicker effects _especially_ made the deck run so much smoother, using it as a defensive way to protect Greasefang, or flicker my own vehicle to make it avoid Greasefang's bounce effect. Even though the term "Discard-Flicker-Vehicle-Reanimator Deck" sounds like an unsynergetic nightmare on paper, the reality is that every single card still goes towards the same game plan of "kill you with vehicles", and it's easily my most consistent and strongest deck nowadays.
Helm of the Host is a bad example because a number of decks go instantly infinite with it
I'd say that's precisely why it's a good example. A lot of overplayed cards are REALLY powerful in a couple of decks and then just see way too much play in other decks.
Lotus cobra IS a great card in landfall decks, where you can play extra lands and also continously recycle fetchlands from the graveyard -> Lotus Cobra effectively giving you +3/4 mana just for doing your thing. But allready in a casual landfall deck that just ramps with budget options... Lotus Cobra starts being kind of "meh". Most cards that let you replay lands from the graveyard are rather pricey, and so is having a critical mass of good fetchlands. -> don't get Lotus Cobra if you have a bunch of budget fetches and no good graveyard recursion.
And I think a lot of really strong cards are like this. Where it's better to just play something else that might be slower but is more reliable, if you don't have the high powered synnergies. E.g. maybe don't play Ancient Tomb in your casual deck if your games tend to go for 10 turns and you have no way of gaining life. Meanwhile in cEDH no idea how long games last but life totals rarely matter and I'd assume the games are over turn 5 tops. Ancient Tomb is really good there.
Helm of the host would be broken in an etali, primal conqueror deck.
You trigger e tali’s enter the battlefield ability every single time, and you can flip these token etalis, murdering everyone with 11/11 dinosaurs with player death touch, while you steal every card they own.
Great video as always.
I recently removed "Teferis Ageless Insight" from my Anowon (Dimir Rogues Tribal) Deck, because I realized it mostly only works with my commander and is worse than a "Bident of Thassa".
Same with "Helm of the Host" in Zhulodok, it is just an overkill.
And Zhulodok is a "Convince the Omnath player to join you and kill them before Zhulodok enters the stack" kind of deck
One thing I'd like to point out is that your middle of the road scenario with Teferi' Ageless Insight, where it doubles up some card draw but you don't end up using those extra cards, the enchantment is still doing something useful. Seeing extra cards, even ones you don't use, is good because it gives you more information to make decisions with and more options about what to play. Also, even if Insight draws you some useless cards, those are cards you were going to draw eventually anyway, so it had gotten past them in your deck and closer to good cards. I'm not saying the card should be played as much as it is, but the actual floor of doing NOTHING only ever occurs if you play it and then do not ever play any draw effects for the rest of the game, which seems very unlikely.
I agree on this. The only deck I play helm of the host in is my Silumgar the Drifting Death deck because he has the hexproof to dodge that spot removal that would normally get thrown at him in response to the equip, and his -1/-1 ability gets multiplicatively better when duplicated, since each of them triggers off each dragon they see attacking and silumgar is of course a dragon itself. This makes the clone effect much better than in most decks. Sure its still a bit win more, but its also a great way to repeatedly duplicate other strong dragons in the deck considering I'm in dimir and my options are limited for that tribe.
Every time I see your pfp I always feel like I’m gonna read something negative but I like your comments they are really well written
@@thetrinketmage aw thanks 😁
The only deck I run reliquary tower in is my Narset enlightened exile deck and this video is making me look at it more critically.
The negatives, as you have highlighted, are that it's a colorless land for my three color deck without green which can make it hard to cast some spells, and that at the end of the day discarding spells to the graveyard isn't all that bad because I can reuse them with Narset.
BUT, on the contrary, I kinda like how it removes one decision point that I don't have to think about, and with all the triggers I have to keep track of, the ordering of spell slinging and deciding what mana to leave up for instant interaction I actually like having one fewer thing to worry about. Also narset is one of the decks that, in my experience has a strong correlation between big hand size and having a lot of creatures on the board, so I really want to keep both protection spells, cantrips and big buff spells all at the same time.
So while I agree that a lot of players get too focused on the highest ceiling instead of the average floor, I think that you're underestimating a bit how "comfortable" certain cards can make you feel, especially if you have to account for a lot of things having (sometimes) less mental load is worthwhile on its own
Reliquary Tower, the bane of my existence.
I think I have discarded to hand size...one time in all the EDH games I've played, and I did not care because I still had 7.
I always see it and go "This is literally making your deck worse, person."
Maybe it's okay in like an Azami deck, but I say "That's not a precon it doesn't have to pretend to be one"
See I’m pretty much the inverse. I regularly run it my group hug Bant and Az decks. It’s a great piece of redundancy since land destruction is rarer than other types.
I am also the opposite of this, with The Gitrog, Ravenous Ride, I often end my turns with well over 8 cards in hand and I'm either thankful for hitting tower, or wishing I hit tower
kinda agree
How little EDH and/card draw do you play where you've only discarded to hand size once? Cyclonic Rift exists, Sphinx's Revelation exists, Necropotence exists, Rhystic Study/Mystic Remora/Esper Sentinel exist, etc. I discard to hand size probably once every 10 games. I do agree that Reliquary Tower shouldn't be played outside of 2 or less color decks where you plan on drawing an absurd amount of cards, as in it's what your commander does.
its funny, I actually run Teferi's Ageless Insight in my Sidar Jabari deck specifically for the example you used in this video, because all of my knights cantrip when they attack its super useful for digging for more knights to discard to reanimate
Oh with that commander you will almost never actually have the card do nothing so it’s a perfect include!
And it's a flavor win!
Teferi's Ageless Insight is really nice with Looters too. Draw two discard one cause you tapped a dude is pretty neat.
Yeah, I play Minn and I have almost every looter that doesn't suck in the deck. If I manage to get Ageless Insight in(usualy for 0 mana) it's an almost won game already.
@@912zap aaah, a fellow Minn player. I love her.
seagate restoration is the best example of this. it only draws you lots of cards if you already have lots of cards. tap out on my turn to draw cards when my hand is already full? no thanks.
YOOO Love your videos, demo! Cam you do a video on cards you think are over-rated, plz? Would love to see it!
I’ve actually never cast the flip side of the card yet. But I totally see your point with an empty hand it’s so much mana for one card!
The thing is with it being a double faced card is it is never truly dead even if you never cast the front.
The main advantage of Sea Gate Restoration is that it's a 7cmc land.
@@thetrinketmageI've cast it so many times in my mono blue Atemsis deck. I recently added overflowing insight just to have another similar effect. Love it.
I run reliquary tower in my Ghalta primal hunger deck. In that deck you're using greater good and every other card that lets you draw for power, so you generally have 12+ cards in hand as early as turn 4
If you look at my Mina and Denn deck I play the tower cause of greater good and the deck needs colorless mana! There are places where it’s good
@@thetrinketmage I do heavily need the green mana tbh, it's a real sacrifice there. I just find that I draw so many cards that it's worth the risk. I just love being the green player with 30 cards in hand when I pass lol.
You are so close to applying quadrant theory to EDH, something I recommend all players learn to do.
Also, Teferi's Ageless Insight only sees so much play because it's a budget card that makes your other budget card draw spells ALMOST as good as their nonbudget equivalents while it is in play. Some people just want a CHANCE to keep up with more expensive and usually more powerful decks. It's not the same, but I really can't fault them for trying. Sometimes, you just have to work with the tools you have, ya know?
Lastly, I think that the inclusion rate for Reliquary Tower is artificially inflated by the "precon effect." Let's face it, that card was included in every precon for a long time, and there is a growing movement to play more unmodified or only slightly upgraded sealed commander decks.
So I almost made this video with quadrant theory in the script but ended up changing it because I liked the ceiling floor analogy better for simplicity
@thetrinketmage fair point, although I do believe that some relevant nuance is lost in doing so. Still, it's your channel, and the art you present needs to be based on your judgment, so whatever you think is the best way to reach your audience is probably the right choice.
Teferi's ageless insight sees cedh play in decks like raffine
@@franslair2199 I'm sure it sees fringe cEDH play. Lots of cards do, but I was talking about why it sees so much play on EDHREC of which cEDH is only a small portion.
@@majinvegeta6364 you're saying it's a shit card that people are trying to play because it seems good but isn't. You don't know what you're talking about.
This reminds me of the one time I asked another player how he wants to get 8+ cards in hand after seeing the Tower in his Boros deck, back in 2015.
He was quickly enlightened that there are better cards out there.
Nowadays there are some Boros Commander that can draw you enough cards (Nelly Borca easily getting 10+ cards in hand makes Tower really good).
I draw a lot of cards in group hug Zedruu. But I don't play Reliquary Tower, you know why? If I have ten or fifteen cards in hand, people might be scared of me, even if I have like two protection spells, three creatures, a Propaganda, and a ton of lands.
But those magical words, "discard to hand size," takes half the target off youe back.
A couple players' turns later, you'll be asked "how many cards in hand?" and you'll say "seven" and they'll go "oh yeah, that's a normal number of cards. Not so scary."
While I agree it removes the target off your back, if you have 30 cards in hand you can fight off 3 players and still have cards to play when they run out. My win con in most of my decks is to just draw 30+ cards and grind the table slowly through attrition into conceding. I dont like combos, and I love control!
@@matd2892 I personally use those 30+ cards to do my combo while keeping the pieces safe. Doing stuff like Windfall into Lab Man.
@@matd2892 this works too! It depends if your goal is to fly under the radar and win at the end, or to become archenemy and fight everyone.
I had a Niv-Mizzet Parun who could fight the table, and that was a Reliquary Tower deck for sure (despite the awkwardness with his mana cost)
These videos are always very thoughtful and appreciated. It’s nice that there are channels that are still contributing valuable insights into the format.
Another thing about Reliquary Tower that some people don't consider is that in any Graveyard deck you might actually WANT to discard to hand size to be able to pitch things to your graveyard
He mentions this in the video
oops missed that line in the vid ahaha. Either way totally agree
One thing that comes to mind is that a lot of players aren't trying to build decks that maximize winning, but rather create the experience they want to have (which is fine in casual). The harder it "goes off", the more intense the experience. So people frequently favor thematic stuff/things meant to be fun/stuff that enhances the ceiling and story of the game over consistency.
I also agree with the part where you mentioned people saying, "You should play..." This is almost always followed by a dubious suggestion for something kinda on theme or vaguely synergistic but not actually something bad to omit.
really liked this video. I myself have been playing for a long time (1993) and had to figure these things out the hard way. Great that you're offering new players a toolbox for building their deck better!
Great analysis. I’ve been trying to make my deck’s power level more consistent and things are this have been on my mind. Keep up the good work.
I am a HATER of reliquary tower.
However! The new Nelly Borca Boros commander, NEEDS it. She naturally draws dozens of cards through a game. It's so nice holding up a wall of instant speed interaction in your "boros" deck
Another great argument I've heard against running Reliquary Tower is that discarding helps teach card evaluation in general, which helps with learning which cards are good and which aren't, which translates into better deck building in general
"you can't make a deck with only removal, ramp and card draw" That's my favorite kind of deck!
Someone suggested I run Reliquary Tower in my Goreclaw deck which can and often does draw a ton of cards. I'm not ruling out ever adding it, but I'm generally only ever discarding excess forests so it doesn't really do anything for me except make me look scarier than I actually am.
Thankfully, because of my time playing yugioh I already had experience w/ ensuring that most cards accomplished something on their own before coming to magic..
But my lord EDH has soooooooo many more temptations for this, I especially love it when old cards just kindaaaaa fit in. But then when I need space for cards that actually further my strategy, I look at the first card and go "Nope, thats my favourite piece," look at the next one "No, thats also my favourite," next one, "I just haaaave to keep this in its so good when it works!"
the only deck i include any "no max hand size" cards is my baba lysaga deck, in which i want to trigger her 1-2 times per turn, drawing me 4-7 cards a turn. i dont absolutely need reliquary tower or thought vessel in the deck, but i think that they are valid in that deck as the no max hand actually does help out somewhat, and when it does do nothing having a colorless land/colorless mana rock isnt hurting my deck at all
Thank you for the Ageless Insight example. I've pointed to others that it's a trap card in a lot of decks because they see their commander has "Draw a card" somewhere on it. Paying four mana for nothing until that commander trigger happens gives a lot of opportunity for your opponents to interact in a way that denies the cards you wanted.
Just play a normal draw spell or a synergy piece.
You should know this is basically Quadrant Theory, something some pro players came up with for card evaluation a while ago. The essential idea is splitting your evaluation into 4 parts - Developing, Winning, Parity, and Losing. Figuring out which quadrants each card is strong in helps quantify the value of the card in your deck, etc etc.
I was thinking about having quadrant theory in the video but went with this because I think it flows better not needing to explain what a floor and ceiling is
@@thetrinketmage Makes sense, I figured I'd put that out there as like, additional reading lol
The funny thing about the ur-dragon and reliquary tower is that "ceiling" of reliquary tower where you have attacked and drew a bunch of cards that you want to keep, it means you attacked with a bunch of dragons. The game is either over or almost over if you just drew 10 cards. Not because now you have a ton of cards for whatever situation, but because you have a huge board. So the land is useless
I'm pretty new to magic in general this vid helped me a lot since right now I'm just starting to finish up my list.
While watching this I started taking a look through one of the decks I have and got to Warren Soultrader right as it got on the screen. Was a real neat experience
I am glad you are talking about this. Most of the people I end up helping with decklist fixes only focus on the ceiling and explaining to them how the ceiling doesn't matter if there is not a good floor to support can sometimes be quite hard(I'm convinced over 90% of MTG players are denser than nuclear pasta). Side note, reliquary tower is a trash card, even in a deck that has a goal of getting a 50 card hand.
do nothing win more cards are like having a graphic designer in your group research project
That’s a really good analogy
Excellent topic. I just pulled Legion Loyalty from my Caesar deck, because I NEVER had it when it could be useful.
Great to see you getting sponsors! Love the content!!
Not me looking at the Reliquary Tower I put into an Emry deck like "maybe I can just use another Island"
Reliquary Tower converts unknown information into mitigation especially if you run a healthy amount of card draw. Many players aren't willing to risk attacking into potential interaction, even if my hand is 6 Islands, Evolving Wilds and Sorrow's Path. In such games, Reliquary Tower's opportunity cost pays for itself.
Interesting I usually have the opposite experience. Most players don’t even think about the interaction they walk right into and I find the player with a ton of cards in hand to be the threat and I will focus them down
In my group if someone has 14 cards in hand and there isn't an immediate game ending threat on the board, we are focusing that person down.
Basically, be responsible with your win more cards. Reliquary Tower doesn't belong in every blue deck, but put it in izzet spellslinger which casts entire hands in a turn and now we have something.
With some staples in decks, I throw them into mine if they won't hurt too much when drawn early because they're the red herrings of my deck. I tend to build strange decks with strange cards, so when my opponents at the table see a staple, they typically go and destroy/remove/counter that one because they're experienced with that card. I don't mind losing those cards too much, even though they still bring some value to my deck, because that way I keep the real stars save. Worked quite well for months by now, even with people who have gotten to know my decks by now.
I love how I'm waiting for the video to end so I can explain why Teferi's ageless insight and reliquary tower belong in my Gin-Gitaxias cantrips deck and then you just so happen to make an exception for my specific archetype.
It is also great because there is no other card like it. It's not like it's enhancer number 5. It is the only piece of card advantage in that deck that doesn't directly draw cards.
I appreciate the analysis being more than “Reliquary Tower bad”
AMERICA DAY UPLOAD LETS GOOOOOO
I run *a lot* of no max hand size cards in Guff but that's because Guff just churns through so many cards and can put so many of them out.
Ageless Insight sucks me in every time I play mono blue. As you said it's great in my Watcher deck, and in my Ormos deck. Otherwise though it is usually a trap.
Easy tip: take out “win mores”, add removal to fill the newly formed gap in the deck.
Also greater good is a great way to discard creatures to reanimate in my Meren deck. I could sacrifice a Blood Artist to greater good and still get value. Also awesome synergy with dredge creatures.
I have Reliquary Tower in 2 decks for very specific reasons. My Azami, Lady of Scrolls cEDH/High Powet deck has powerful effects that reward my large hand sizes. Oftentimes I will have upwards of 20 cards and being able to pitch cards with Dream Halls is super effective. My second deck is Ranar, the Ever-watchful, and it is one of a dozen colorless mana producers to enable Eldrazi Displacer. If I were to remove the Displacer, it would come out in a heartbeat.
fantastic video, thank you for your insight 😤
Grats on the sponsorship!
I run a Reliquary Tower in my Yargle and Multani deck, but I also run Greater Good. Being able to keep all 18 cards I drew plus what was already in my hand is great, but I know the deck well enough to know what a winning 7 look like.
I remember the times I drew 36 or more cards in a turn and got to keep them all, as well as the ones I discarded down to seven. Both situations put you in a real good spot.
Makes me wonder if Thought Vessel and Reliquary Tower are worth it
As someone building a budget commander deck I was thinking exactly this "Hmm, my deck aims to have a ton of creatures to attack, I don't know if a boardwipe would fit-" well, now I'm adding a boardwipe and some removal lol.
I guess my experience with yugioh is to blame. YGO is so quick and explosive that it's usually better to make sure that you can push your advantage state as much as possible AND THEN add defensive cards as deck space allows. Some types of decks like Pendulum barely play any defensive cards at all because you need a lot of monsters to make it consistent.
I guess an addedum is that most of today's meta decks in ygo need so little engine to do so much that half of the deck is just defensive cards. Hyperconsistency is a hell of a drug.
My izzet spellslinger deck felt so upgraded after such a small change; taking out reliquary tower and adding a thought vessel. Sounds kinda silly at first glance, but being able to ramp in the early game with rocks is huge for my later big mana turns.
I still can’t bring myself to take out teferi’s ageless insight though… 😅
I enjoy drawing a ton of cards, so I tend include the tower, and two or three other similar effects. But there are two decks that I intentionally left it out of, Slimefoot and squee, and Damia, because both of those decks want to use the end step for discarding if I end up with too many cards drawn.
For me, I see this as a more recent issue with effects like Reliquary Tower as lands have gotten better (same with mana rocks getting better in the case of Thought Vessel), so now space within decks has gotten way more competitive, especially when playing more colors
I currently have 8 decks I play around with. Of those 8, I have and use Reliquary Tower in 2: My upgraded Deep Clue Sea (with added Detectives and more Clue synergy, as well as at least a handful of cards that care about hand size) and My Zethi, Arcane Blademaster (there are times where I want to keep my interaction in hand to use rather than discard it to the graveyard. It also partly runs on a Cycling engine, so it draws a lot of cards). In those decks, it is useful for multiple reasons, not just because they want to draw cards, but because they want a LOT of card draw to enable their game plan. Simply put, many of the best cards in DCS are triggered by card draw. Zethi is a spellslinging deck, so you want to be refueling your hand often and hold up removal.
Reliquary Tower is most appropriate when you're mass drawing at end step: Necrodominance.
Helm of the Host is most appropriate when the creature has a powerful combat effect: Godo or Aurelia.
I totally agree. Though I doubt you're going to circle around, if you ever talk about "teferi's ageless insight" again, it has a much stronger synergy with commanders that themselves cantrip. "Sidar Jabari of Zhalfir" becomes a powerhouse when combined with cards like it and "The council of 4". It's also great in something like "Kadena, Slinking Sorcerer", where you're using it with a morph/colorless cost reducer and a flash enabler to ensure you can play your whole deck.
I was gonna cut it from my shorikai deck, because it was a bit too good, from the point it almost made me lose the game
Thanks to your videos I made a commander deck of only cards from MOM with the commander Zurgo and Ojutai and no synergy other than himself. It was just good cards no synergy. And it was enough to get back to back wins cause it had good removal, good card draw. And it didn't need to go crazy just those things can put in the work.
1:14 it's funny that you mention Crucible of Fire.
In a Ganax, Astral Hunter deck that uses Fewild Visitor as its Background commander, you actually want CoF because you're making a bunch of 1/1 tokens that are Dragons. Usually, the tokens just get used as chump blockers, but with Crucible, they're 4/4, meaning you need less to block big things and can live against other small creatures.
Also, I found it funny you kept using Ur-Dragon as an example since that was the first edh deck I truly fell in love with it. (Dropped it because it didn't feel nuanced enough. That's why I play Ganax now.)
What I like to do sometimes is also ask „how much does this have to do to be good and how often does this minimum happen?“. I recently had a conversation where this was especially useful when a guy told me „Gaeas cradle is not THAT good since it doesn’t make mana when you have no creatures“ my response was exactly this thing. How much mana does cradle have to produce to be good? The answer is 2. what percentage of the time does it do that in your deck? Pretty much 100% in this guys case so we agreed it is good.
Anyway the argument does work on less obviously example and it also works during gameplay to reduce the greediness of plays. The new Ghalta for example that lets you put on the board as many creatures on the board as you like. How much does it have to do to be good? In reality bringing in 1 creatures is already strong. So you do not have to keep him in your hand because next turn you have even more to put into his trigger and repeat this thought next turn u til you loose without ever playing him
So, making a stance here for Reliquary Tower. The scenarios, imo, where you want the old Waste With An Upside are:
1) If your deck plays a lot of interaction aiming for late game and draws a lot of cards without you doing much. I play a Talion clones deck that passively draws so much and plays so much interaction that I always want to keep in hand to leave my opponents in a long game where my Talion(s) can chip them away until I can win, that in practice, the roof of Reliquary Tower means I can genuinely control a 3 player table effectively, while its floor is a colorless land in a 2 color deck.
2) If your deck plays very bad card quality but has ways of drawing a burst of cards or 3+ cards in a turn. This happens to me more than anything in lower powered decks where a burst card draw effect doesn't just win me the game by me sculpting my hand into the perfect 7 cards I will need. If you had ever thought "It is fair to put Necropotence in this casual deck, it is not like I have 7 cards that just win me the game on their own" first, fuck you, and second, you probably could use a Reliquary Tower.
3) If your deck's win condition is the "control threshold". If you don't play finishers and instead your win con is doing the same busted things a couple turns in sequence (Landfall without combo, go wide creature beatdown without haste, etc) you will need ways to protect your stuff during your opponents' turns to allow you to secure your win without dying to a wrath. You will need counterspells or heroic intervention effects, probably more than one, plus whatever setup you need to do the thing again next turn and continue whatever the value engine you have is to try to close the game. That could use a reliquary tower.
4) Your deck can draw 20+ cards in a turn and you really, really don't want to think. This might be my pods' exclusive but we kind of have an understanding that if you drew 20+ cards in a turn and untap with all of them, you kind of won game once you reach a certain power level. That kind of makes Reliquary Tower basically a combo piece if you stretch the definition
It's funny to see these types of conversations come up in edh when this evaluation standard has been used in legacy forever
I really love teffaris ageless insight in my my Stenn enchant deck because it leans more into mono white where i dont run many blue cards other than removal so the teffaris gets a lot more value as a result of that
I love this video. First of yours I've watched. And I learned this lesson in a weird way. I built a pirate themed deck when ixilan first came out. And everyone around me kept saying the deck was terrible looking at the floor of every card. Which was all steal/copy effects (piracy) but turns out having the best card on the board averaging the other 3 decks. Turns out is better than expected.
I’m glad you liked the video! Who was the commander for that deck?
@thetrinketmage the original admiral beckett brass. Wasn't super great but worked
I'm playing Teferi's Ageless Insight in my cycling deck with 40+ cycling cards; it's a real bomb there. It doesn't really fit in anything else I've ever built though :]
Reliquary Tower in general is one of the biggest traps in commander. So many other utility lands have much better effects. I would not put it in any deck. If I ever actually need dozens of cards in hand, I'm probably doing something wrong.
There are a couple of commanders where having a large hand can be part of a wincon. Tales of the ancestors + purphoros is table lethal if you have 20 cards in hand in xyris.
I’m much more particular about when to include Reliquary Tower and other “no max hand size cards” than I used to be. Most of the time, replacing those with recursion is way better. I think my Alandra deck is my only one with “no max hand size” stuff because it fuels her overrun effect.
As for “do nothing” cards: I built a Naya enchantress deck a few years ago in which 32 of the 42ish enchantments were not auras or creatures, and the auras were almost all ramp. I keep it updated and still play it, and it is a beast in casual.
A playgroup that doesn't use much removal, that must be nice, my group is one person gets a good board state and three other people go "damn itd be a shame if somewhere were to wipe that" and then proceed to immediately do just that
This video confirming to myself that i am indeed bad and i love it.
I run Scion of the Ur-Dragon in my Ur-Dragon deck, so I usually want some (dragons)in my graveyard in order to gain their etb. I found out that if I use Scion go get Teneb, the Harvester and do combat damage to someone then I can use Teneb's effect to pull himself out of the graveyard. TLDR: I don't run Reliquary Tower in my Ur-Dragon specifically for situations like that.
I agree with this point. You can't just evaluate a cards max potential, especially not in a vacuum. You have to consider hownt behaves in your specific deck and if it will actively contribute something to your games more times than not. For example, I have only 2 decks that play reliquary tower. One is Azami, Lady fo Scrolls who's entire goal is to draw your entire deck and I also have access to Harbinger of the Seas to make it an island when I want to go off with hightide or have established another no maximum handsize effect. The other is Massacre Girl, Known Killer because of how much it can draw cards as well and the fact I get to play Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth in the list to make it tap for black. In both cases the upside can be very large and the downsides can be mitigated.
a lot of "do nothing cards" are cards that are only tangentially related to the decks strategy. To give an example using the Teferi's Ageless Insight example, it can be a really do nothing card UNLESS your game plan IS to draw cards (like a cycling deck). The reason they end up being no nothing cards is because they don't advance your strategy.
On the note of reliquary tower I was absolutely baffled when I saw it on lists for magar of the magic strings, a commander that actively wants you to have stuff in your graveyard.also In 31% of varina decks, and Varina cares about your graveyard as well.
I feel helm of the host, is sort of a win more, but doesn't become worthless unless it's spot removed. It just depends on the deck it's certainly a key card if your deck has a lot of ETB/Combat or its a win con for your commander (Aurelia). As it gives a good ETB repeater for consistency at the lower power level tables that isn't stuffed with tutors. But I do agree it's too often used because only the commander really benefits.
Teferi’s Ageless Insight is amazing with cards that passively (or at a small cost recurrably) draw a single card
I find that I have the reflex to put a Reliquary Tower in all my decks from back when Commander design was a lot more lax in its deckbuilding philosophy. Back then Reliquary Tower was pretty new, and a lot of people were still playing battlecruiser style decks, which often missed land drops and had several cards in their hands with high cmc. Since then, mana curves have gotten a lot tighter and lower as decks became more focused, and now Reliquary Tower is more of a bane than a boon in many decks. For me, though, I grew up playing with the old deckbuilding ways, and it's hard to break out of that. I do alright, though, and I still have it in some decks.
Telling myself “Play more removal” over and over as I add 10 cards to deal with artifacts and enchantments
farewell is maybe a bad example because of how modal it is, it likely has a mode that hits the rest of the table significantly harder than it hits you
True but again if you are already ahead on board are you really casting farewell just to enchantments? Doesn’t that feel like a waste? Obviously situationally it could be good but I don’t see my self using my get out of jail free card to exile a few random artifacts
In regards to the fact that these cards do have their place, sometimes the bottom of what the card can do can still work. Reliquary Tower, for example, is at the very least a source of mana. While it doesn't necessarily fit into every deck, and I agree with the problem of putting it in an Ur-Dragon deck specifically, that's more because the Ur-Dragon is a 5 colour deck and Reliquary Tower gives a single Colourless mana. When you don't need the infinite hand size, its just a fancy Wastes, and you wouldn't really be putting a Wastes in the deck anyway. But in a Colourless deck, or even one that doesn't need as much coloured mana in general even if its not colourless, a Wastes could still be good just because its a land, which make Reliquary Tower good because its a Wastes with a bonus. That still doesn't make it an auto-include, but decks do want some win more effects, so a deck that wants a large hand when it does kick off like the Ur-Dragon does, but which benefits more from Colourless mana than the Ur-Dragon ever would, that's a time when Reliquary Tower would be a decent choice.
Also, for Teferi's Ageless Insight, I'd also argue that a deck that combos using draw triggers would also benefit immensely. Just as a sample combo, TAI with Jace's Erasure makes for a decent mill combo, turning your draw spells into even more mill. So if your deck is built around draw triggers like Jace's Erasure has, or if your deck wants a massive hand for whatever reason, like maybe a spellslinger deck (maybe you have Reliquary Tower in for the same reason), then yeah, include TAI, it really does still help cards that already draw you a lot by being more draw triggers and an even bigger hand.
These cards are traps not because they should never be included, but because its too easy to think they are more useful in your deck than they will be. There are still decks that actually will benefit from having them, you just need to be very careful ensuring your deck is actually one of them and you wouldn't be better off with something else.
Or maybe, like me, you know you'd be better off with something else, you're just saving your money for now and are going with the best option available to you without buying a new card. I probably still wouldn't toss Reliquary Tower into an Ur-Dragon deck, you'd likely be better off with any land that produces coloured mana, even a basic land. But some of these traps are still more useful than other potential cards if you happen to have them and no better options available to you.
I think Terferi’s Ageless Insight absolutely has a home in certain decks, those decks being commanders that encourage looting effects (any of the connive commanders from SNC for example) - in those decks it turns your connives from card selection that sometimes get you a counter into genuine card advantage, the card does some work in a Raffine list and I play it in cedh Raffine. But yeah it shouldn’t just be jammed into any blue deck without a thought of synergy and I think the cases I’m talking about do have the synergy to justify them
i love teferi's ageless insight for kwain, even if im behind on untap engines i always get some value out of it. also if another player has something threatening on the board it can stick around for a few turns before people start getting concerned by how many cards im drawing
Reliquary Tower is different though. It‘s a quality of life include, a courtesy to the table and yourself, so nobody has to wait for you choosing which 14 cards to discard.
Yea I came to this conclusion recently when trying to tighten my imotekh build. I'm playing it more as an anthem version of the deck rather than aristocrat and my table is pretty strong so that variant has trouble holding up and I was like "yea I'm never gonna be in a winning situation all these win more cards make no sense"
I used to run ReqTower and Helm in many decks; now they are only in 1: OG Kozilek. I discovered the trap, and found better things. But those do do work in Kozilek because, well, colorless utility has no downside, and do you know how awesome it is to have several Kozileks, Ulamogs, or Emrakuls on the board? I once had 3 Kozileks in a game that had gotten down to me and 1 other person. And there's no coming back from a 3-Kozilek swing.
I put both Teferi's Ageless Insight and Reliquary Tower in my Kess wheel deck. i use them to make the wheels bigger to punish my opponents more. Sometimes its the difference between victory and loss.
i only run reliquary tower in my sheoldred the apocalypse deck because i have lot's of howling mine type effects that make evryone's hand fill up quickly and i've found that i want to use any reanimation i have on my commander instead of stuff i discarded to stay ahead. so in that specific case, it isn't as much of a "win more" card in that deck
There are a lot of great points. I've been cutting generic win more cards from decks where the synergy just isn't there. Sometimes, if the synergy works, I may want it. Reliquary Tower really doesn't hurt much to have in most decks. However, if I have 3 or more colors, I probably only can tolerate one colorless land. Maybe two if one filters and also has a nice effect. And if I don't get a direct benefit from having extremely large hands, like playing control or getting benefits from a large hand, then I don't need it. I also like to discard often and have stuff in the bin.
As for your point that pretty much all cards do nothing without anything, except for removal, ramp, turors and card draw...I do think this is a little off. Many creatures do so much on their own. One they provide a body, and two they almost all have effects that don't require other things. Each of these other cards has an opportunity cost and the potential to do nothing or at least not do enough as well.
1. Draw almost never does nothing, because if it didn't, that means you lose (or win with one of the few Thoracle type cards). So we definitely want a fair amount of draw, but considering a variety of draw so that all of your draw cards don't rely other things to draw)
2. Tutors are best when built around so you know what to get. If they have no purpose and you don't know your toolbox well, this becomes painful for other players and yourself.
3. Ramp can fail to find, similar to the problem of tutors. This is especially true for things like Cultivate that want you to be basic heavy. Mana rocks on the other hand are very prone to mass destruction these days and provide a lot of benefits for those Dockside players and such. It's still often worth playing them, but that come at a cost and I think many are overused.
4. Removal needs targets when it targets and it wants you to be behind or to be immune to its effects when you play it. It can often be detrimental. It doesn't mean you shouldn't play it, but I simply want to point out that many of these don't work without targets and can be dead cards at times.
Either way, great points and I do consider the 4 categories as well as bodies on board (or enough prison effects) to be essential, but I evaluate which cards of each type go into a deck so that it makes most sense and I am almost positive you've made this point in other videos. Great video!
Hey! Don't you bad talk my beautiful boy Lotus Cobra. He goes in every deck, don't question it.
I also love lotus cobra I just think it’s a bit overplayed. But I didn’t want to bath mouth the card so I didn’t include it in the actual discussion
This logic is why I only included ashes of the fallen in Disa. Never felt good paying 4 or 5 for the effect. It always felt awful falling that far behind on tempo to play a card that does nothing if my commander ate a removal
Maybe this is another topic but I do want to touch on it and that's gameplans
When explaining your deck you should be able to go
I do X then Y then Z and win the game or sometimes even just X then Y
Examples of this can be I play my commander, enchant it and swing for the game.
I've seen plenty of decks that just fall into durdle traps by having a game plan of:
I ramp up, I draw a lot of cards, I'll play some value pieces and figure it out from there.
Simic goodstuff very much has a good place in EDH but I often feel like the decks have a too generic gameplan and there is where these trap cards rise up
"Oh look I found a cool simic value piece, let me put that in my value deck".
While value is something I love a lot I think it's important to at least have an idea on what to do with it.
You can play a landfall deck and with that the ramp and draw actually works into your play pattern.
If you don't have a plan for your game the deck is going to be a lot less optimised which in defence of this is very okay.
I have a morska deck where I just dumped all my bant value cards, some grouphug and that deck is great at just letting everyone take game actions.
Powerwise that deck kinda sucks, for the budged and card quality it's just a generic goodstuffs pile but the deck has it's charms but this is a deck build to be bad
When someone asks me "How do I make my deck better" I ask them to describe their I do XYZ and then we look through the deck which cards do not contribute to that deck plan directly
Sometimes cards synergise with 2 others in the deck and they dream of that one case, honestly a dead card most the time and otherwise just fishes out a removal piece.
The point of this rant is decide what your deck wants and keep your gameplan simple, with a highlander (singleton/1 of) format the temptation to put in so many different deck plans is great but not ideal
Redundancy and simplicity wins games and sometimes you really should respect some weaker power cards in order to stick to a plan. If hardened scales are good in your deck look at more alternatives to the card and don't wander off in too many directions
i feel like this is general with pretty much any enablers they’re really good if you have your commander or if your engine is online but the minute that gets broken apart it’s just a dead card i learned this when i had a bunch of counter doublers in the deck but not enough counter generators in my vorinclex monsterous raider deck
I like reliquary in 2 or less color decks. But most cases it's bad. Thought Vessel is a little more usable though imo.
I like thought vessel a lot more because the floor is 2 mana ramp and you can’t be too mad at that
I have a Yarok, the Desecrated deck that I always find my self discarding to max hand size and since I have so much ramp I have been thinking of adding a reliquary tower