Bjorn, I enjoy hearing your thoughts and ruminations on EVs and Tesla especially. They are calm and reasoned - not the breathless hyperbole that others use as click bait. Keep up the great work!
As other comments have mentioned: the 90D speed upgrade happened about two years ago. That's when my 2017 X90D saw 141 kW for the first time. Now quite slow at 50%+ SOC though.
I superchargered my 2018 x75d twice this weekend and thought it was charging much faster than I remembered. No idea what speed it was charging at but I got 40% battery add for a wee stop, and had to unplug and move the car at a lunch stop so not to get an idle fee.
my p85 has been able to hit 125 but is still dead slow after that get about 40kw at 50%, Do not supercharge often. So hope they fix this for old 85 packs
I would be curious how bad an 85 pack actually is. Definetly worse than it used to, but isn't a P85, even nerfed, a much better roadtripping car than a Kona, Zoe, e208? In most parts of the world I'd go for a P85 due to the charging network, even if it charges somewhat slower than a Zoe.
There were studies with numbers that showed supercharging vs not supercharging degradation is similar, so using supercharging is not the issue. Mainly it's temperature (super hot/super cold), charging and usage habit (0% or 100% often) that was I was told and led to believe
Faster supercharging since the last sofware update with my 575000km model S 85. Specialy under 40% it seems. @Bjorn, you need to check ;-) I enjoy roadtrip even with the 85 pack.
Thanks Bjørn. Very informative. Thanks for providing your thoughts on the 85 kWh packs also. My 6-year-old S85D is still charging fast enough for my road trips. It only has 75,000 km of driving and mostly AC charging. I usually take a 60 minute lunch break [at supercharger, of course], and also supercharge during my 10-15 min rest stops as well. I drive 1-2 hours between stops, and the car is always done charging before I am ready to leave.
'16 MS75 (BTX5 battery) facelift with more than 14000 kWh of DC charging. Last summer the max. supercharger power was 84 kW, now I get 120 kW. Average power from 20% to 50% is about 100 kW.
In Norway they won the first round against Tesla about the 85 charge speed, but Tesla has appealed the decision. My guess is that that it has been done to limit the amount of batteries they have to replace as the 85 pack fails often. Some are lucky and get a 90 pack as replacement. As 85 cars actually is quite a small amount out of the total they should just do a recall and give them all a 90 or 100 pack
@@Steinegal I strongly agree and would like to join the people who are challenging Tesla. Regarding battery capacity : 85 pack, 105k kms, I am getting "Nominal full pack : 74.6kwh". "Energy buffer : 4kwh". Does this mean, the usable is only 70.6kwh? I also see "Full rated range : 454 km" and "Full typical range : 364km"... Terribly sad to see these numbers.
@@Steinegal I read somewhere, Very recently, I think beginning 2020, Tesla have patented/created a new 85 battery pack and it is listed as new part number. This happened when tesla is not selling 85.... Now, It is not worth for a company like Tesla to appeal, rather satisfy the customer by recall/replace the 85 pack with improvement or give a 90 like you said, even with software locked to 85. With small percentage of sales, and this dis-satisfied customer base with Model S. Especially when E-tron, Jaguar, etc are being released, it's a bad thing. I personally talked with a family who owned several Tesla, they are going to Jaguar or something else because "We like the car, but not their services and approach". Now, Tesla ruined easily 8.5 million NOK sales (8 cars).
The changes to the charging curve happened more than a year ago, probably 2,5-3 years ago. The 75 pack used to peak at 100kW at 42% SoC, but after the change it got 130kW at about 20% SoC, and then hit 100 at 42% again, and then drop faste than before.
I bought a 2016 MX P90DL two months ago and my first supercharging session I saw 130kw, then I made the mistake of doing an update, and I've never exceeded 110kw since. It's like they "re-nerfed" the charging power and curve.
I have a 1088815-01-E reman 85 battery, replaced in 2019. I couldn't find information about the E version and as well about the supercharge speed restriction on this battery.
Something on the old 85 packs may have changed too (but it's still slow overall). I drove from Sweden to Switzerland yesterday and today. On my last charging stop i charged at a 250 kW V3 charger with CCS adapter. Arrived with 48 km and the charging initially ramped up to 127 kW. Never saw that speed before, even with lower km. Ramped down to 109 kW @ 60km, 99 kW @ 76 km, 95 kW @ 87 km.
@@kieransharp18 what is the 100% charge KM range? I got 375km when 100% completed at overnight AC charge. When I checked stats "Nominal full pack : 74.6kwh"...
@@eeebalajihi I'm Kierans dad, We get 400km on mine with full charge, 170000kms on the clock, i haven't fully charged it for more than six months though...
I have s 75 2017 fist time I drived long . I charged Tesla soc several times on that trip .often the battery was 20% and I got almost 125 Kwt power.but I was afraid there will be too much sound fans that cool the battery .it looks like someone smokes or bursts, after 20 minutes the sound became normal. I do not know that the loud sound while you get the most effect is the reason that the car gets so much power and the battery gets hot.
@@bjornnyland Bjørn please make the vedio on this topic you have very short vedio about . Is this loudly noice while you charging soc is caused highly voltage or other?
Björn please tell me if DC chraging in general is BAD or if it only BAD when it comes to high power throughput ? I think that charing with 1C speed is not "BAD" but I dont know if I am right ? Can you please bring light to this dark topic ? As always, thank you for your videos, you are doing a great job.
Bjorn, When people bought S & X with the old packs there was the expectation that the pack would need replacing. I know that is not true anymore. My question is did Tesla customers get what they expected??
2013 S85 here, going to get a bunch of supercharging in next month as I travel from Virginia to Alabama and back. Probably going to top out at 90 still because Tesla would prefer to think the 60 and 85 packs didn't exist.
I have a 2018 Model X 100D and I took a photo with what was the fastest rate I received, 168kw from a V3 supercharger. It was actually faster than that but by the time I got my phone out to take a picture the rate reduced a little!
I'd say Tesla did that to prevent warranty cases for degraded batteries while advertising too high charging speeds. Now they got sued and have to change it back.
Which update number resulted in this change? I’m sitting on a pending update 2020.48.37.6 I haven’t clicked on yet. I did see 119kW on our ‘13 S for like 3 seconds on a 150kW station the other day.
@@ursweiss What? Why? What's the point in spending more and buying a 85. Was this communicated to owners? So, now, If my car says 90% then, it's actually 80% of the true capacity. If my car says 100%, then, it's actually 90% of the true capacity. Then, I can peaceful charge to 90% for daily use and maybe 100% for trips, if needed. I do noticed that the supercharging is only 80kw, for type-2 and also for CCS. Very slow.
Yes reduce capacity 85 pack, in Stats app when I charge I see info “charging XX kWh of 74kWh” means the 85 capacity is reduced (obviously some kWh is hidden for buffer but should appear at least 80kWh not less…)
@@karkar7622 I am getting "Nominal full pack : 74.6kwh". "Energy buffer : 4kwh". Does this mean, the usable is only 70.6kwh? I also see "Full rated range : 454 km" and "Full typical range : 364km"... Terribly sad to see these numbers.
Could it be that they removed the restriction after amending the battery warranty for Model X and S. It think they put a mileage limit just like with 3 and Y. So, perhaps now they don't care about battery degradation as long as it does not fall below 70%? It really depends on whether older Model X and S are grandfathered in - unlimited miles, 8 years, but no degradation threshold.
How is the 70% considered for MS 85 RWD? New is 85kwh full pack(including buffer), and 70% is 59.5kwh(including buffer)?. So, 71% at 160000kms is normal and not covered?
Do you think Tesla is doing this to get people out of the charging spot faster, due to excess demand? (at a cost of worse battery degradation to owners)?
Nope, that's wrong assumption. Tesla's main goals when designing cars have always been to take very good care of the battery. Every Tesla has active cooling. And many Teslas also have active heating of the battery, recommended charge limit to 90 %, giving you a warning if you charge repeatedly to 100 % and so on. If Tesla didn't care about battery health as you guys claim, they should do it like Nissan (Leaf) and VW (e-Golf, e-Up) and not have active cooling of the battery.
@@bjornnyland OK, so maybe they are not trying to "kill" your battery on purpose (being evil) but would you agree since Tesla is opening up superchargers to other EV's, and also with so many new cars sold (and not enough new superchargers built fast enough), that they do this so that Tesla cars leave the charging spot quicker? There is, after all, a super high idle fee. This way, more supercharger spots "available"? Cost is slightly worse battery degradation but Tesla is slightly more protected vs other cars with the active cooling agreed
Just my opinion. No, I don't think so. I believe some breakthrough happened with BMS and they are confident enough for the 75, and 90 packs. However, the 85 packs could have more issues than the other packs, which Tesla could be working on it, or might be not under priority considering the development and R&D required for other projects.
Björn please care about your title and speaking. NOT ALL 85 PACKS ARE NERFED, just a few. My one still charges up to 140kw, ok just for short time, aber I need still about 40-45min to reach 70-75%, what I also needed in the beginning. We are talking here about 5 MIN longer or less. If its not a really serious nerf like a few have, its almost not noticable. Just the kw are lower or drop faster, but the time is almost the same. Only bad thing here is, that Tesla doesnt say anything about it. Communication is bad as always with Tesla. But in the end, better that way than how GM dealed with the problem...
Well, if you charge from low to almost full then yes, but if you're using the superchargers as they were intended originally you likely charge from 10 to 50% very often for long range travel. In that case it's really not an issue (but I get your point, for the record).
@@chrisobber5604 you do not charge just up to 50% with S and X from the older times. The Battery is smaller and you need more energy per km. In best cases I charge up to 65% but also often higher. Furthermore if you look carefully to the charge curve you see that the advantage will be achieved in lower SoC areas and kept in the upper part. It is a significant contribution to the charging speed as every minute after 25 Minutes counts double.
I was under the impression that the slow down in the charging kicks in as the battery is filling up. This was discussed as a way to preserve battery longivity. So they changed the charging curve while keeping the same battery degredation?
Bjorn, I enjoy hearing your thoughts and ruminations on EVs and Tesla especially. They are calm and reasoned - not the breathless hyperbole that others use as click bait. Keep up the great work!
Its true.... yesterday my X90d got the first time 138 kW!
As other comments have mentioned: the 90D speed upgrade happened about two years ago. That's when my 2017 X90D saw 141 kW for the first time. Now quite slow at 50%+ SOC though.
My x75d from early 2018 now peaks at 131kW at 30% soc. Huge boost compared to before. When the car was new it peaked at 92kW at 20% soc.
I superchargered my 2018 x75d twice this weekend and thought it was charging much faster than I remembered. No idea what speed it was charging at but I got 40% battery add for a wee stop, and had to unplug and move the car at a lunch stop so not to get an idle fee.
Thank you for doing these tests. They really help us owners understand our own vehicles better, so we can get more out of them. Excellent stuff!
My P85 still charges slow 🤦♂️
my p85 has been able to hit 125 but is still dead slow after that get about 40kw at 50%, Do not supercharge often. So hope they fix this for old 85 packs
I would be curious how bad an 85 pack actually is. Definetly worse than it used to, but isn't a P85, even nerfed, a much better roadtripping car than a Kona, Zoe, e208? In most parts of the world I'd go for a P85 due to the charging network, even if it charges somewhat slower than a Zoe.
@@dragosmihai3489 I have an 85 and is not slower than a Zoe, think you make more charging at lower % so you just need to charge more times.
I hit 127kw in 1sec before it drops 😂
There were studies with numbers that showed supercharging vs not supercharging degradation is similar, so using supercharging is not the issue. Mainly it's temperature (super hot/super cold), charging and usage habit (0% or 100% often) that was I was told and led to believe
Faster supercharging since the last sofware update with my 575000km model S 85. Specialy under 40% it seems. @Bjorn, you need to check ;-) I enjoy roadtrip even with the 85 pack.
We need a Millennium Falcon summer 1000 km challenge. Will be interesting how much time it will lose.
im so jealous of these speeds!!
My Model S P85 doesn't get more than 60kw or 55kw at like 50% speeds.
Refurbished/fixed in 2020
I have noticed this on my 75d 2018 the last 3 months👍🏻
Thanks Bjørn. Very informative. Thanks for providing your thoughts on the 85 kWh packs also. My 6-year-old S85D is still charging fast enough for my road trips. It only has 75,000 km of driving and mostly AC charging. I usually take a 60 minute lunch break [at supercharger, of course], and also supercharge during my 10-15 min rest stops as well. I drive 1-2 hours between stops, and the car is always done charging before I am ready to leave.
Same.
My S85 (2015) is still charging slow. :-(
Clear graph. And so my search continues for a 75/90 pack instead of the 85 classic s.
'16 MS75 (BTX5 battery) facelift with more than 14000 kWh of DC charging. Last summer the max. supercharger power was 84 kW, now I get 120 kW. Average power from 20% to 50% is about 100 kW.
I belive more than 300 have sued Tesla in Denmark cause of the 85 dc supercharger nerf. The case is about to start AFAIK.
On the 85 at 50% is going to 50 kW... There is a group studing a sue on Spain too.
In Norway they won the first round against Tesla about the 85 charge speed, but Tesla has appealed the decision. My guess is that that it has been done to limit the amount of batteries they have to replace as the 85 pack fails often. Some are lucky and get a 90 pack as replacement. As 85 cars actually is quite a small amount out of the total they should just do a recall and give them all a 90 or 100 pack
@@Steinegal I strongly agree and would like to join the people who are challenging Tesla.
Regarding battery capacity :
85 pack, 105k kms, I am getting "Nominal full pack : 74.6kwh". "Energy buffer : 4kwh".
Does this mean, the usable is only 70.6kwh?
I also see "Full rated range : 454 km" and "Full typical range : 364km"... Terribly sad to see these numbers.
@@Steinegal I read somewhere, Very recently, I think beginning 2020, Tesla have patented/created a new 85 battery pack and it is listed as new part number. This happened when tesla is not selling 85.... Now, It is not worth for a company like Tesla to appeal, rather satisfy the customer by recall/replace the 85 pack with improvement or give a 90 like you said, even with software locked to 85.
With small percentage of sales, and this dis-satisfied customer base with Model S. Especially when E-tron, Jaguar, etc are being released, it's a bad thing.
I personally talked with a family who owned several Tesla, they are going to Jaguar or something else because "We like the car, but not their services and approach". Now, Tesla ruined easily 8.5 million NOK sales (8 cars).
The changes to the charging curve happened more than a year ago, probably 2,5-3 years ago. The 75 pack used to peak at 100kW at 42% SoC, but after the change it got 130kW at about 20% SoC, and then hit 100 at 42% again, and then drop faste than before.
Thank you Bjorn, have a 100D with a ton of fast DC charging on it, found this with Google and it was super helpful!
I bought a 2016 MX P90DL two months ago and my first supercharging session I saw 130kw, then I made the mistake of doing an update, and I've never exceeded 110kw since. It's like they "re-nerfed" the charging power and curve.
The Model X battery temp is much lower than my Model 3 when charging. My car gets up to 55C.
Probably because there's less cobalt in the M3 battery. AFAIK low cobalt batteries need to be heated more for fast charging.
I have a 1088815-01-E reman 85 battery, replaced in 2019. I couldn't find information about the E version and as well about the supercharge speed restriction on this battery.
Unlocking reason could be simpler, many 2013 and 2014 cars soon will be out of 8 years battery warranty so Tesla is no longer liable.
Or that they'll get more out of the existing superchargers when old cars charge faster.
Nope. These are 2016 models and later. Warranty will run out from 2024 and later.
@@bjornnyland do you remember exact firmware version Speed unlocked Tesla Model S had?
Something on the old 85 packs may have changed too (but it's still slow overall). I drove from Sweden to Switzerland yesterday and today. On my last charging stop i charged at a 250 kW V3 charger with CCS adapter. Arrived with 48 km and the charging initially ramped up to 127 kW. Never saw that speed before, even with lower km. Ramped down to 109 kW @ 60km, 99 kW @ 76 km, 95 kW @ 87 km.
same for us, we have a model s 85d from 2015 and the charging speed went up to 127kw
@@kieransharp18 what is the 100% charge KM range? I got 375km when 100% completed at overnight AC charge.
When I checked stats "Nominal full pack : 74.6kwh"...
@@eeebalajihi I'm Kierans dad, We get 400km on mine with full charge, 170000kms on the clock, i haven't fully charged it for more than six months though...
Nice to see Teslas getting better and better over the years just with updates.
You are right, I‘m so nerved about the charging speed with my 85d, that I’ll change to the y
Charging profile plots! I commented on liking them.
Wonder if they are a pain to create, having to pull data from your videos by hand?
I use 1h with my p85d+ or basically 85kW netto
I got a facelift S 70 which is literally a 75 limited to 70kw. I reckon this count as 75 so I am quite excited to try out next time.
Hi , I'm going to buy a 75 facelift limited to 70. What is the range you are experiencing ? and charging time? thank in advance
I have s 75 2017 fist time I drived long .
I charged Tesla soc several times on that trip .often the battery was 20% and I got almost 125 Kwt power.but I was afraid there will be too much sound fans that cool the battery .it looks like someone smokes or bursts, after 20 minutes the sound became normal. I do not know that the loud sound while you get the most effect is the reason that the car gets so much power and the battery gets hot.
*125 kW
@@bjornnyland Bjørn please make the vedio on this topic you have very short vedio about . Is this loudly noice while you charging soc is caused highly voltage or other?
Björn please tell me if DC chraging in general is BAD or if it only BAD when it comes to high power throughput ?
I think that charing with 1C speed is not "BAD" but I dont know if I am right ?
Can you please bring light to this dark topic ?
As always, thank you for your videos, you are doing a great job.
Keep up the good work
Bjorn, When people bought S & X with the old packs there was the expectation that the pack would need replacing. I know that is not true anymore. My question is did Tesla customers get what they expected??
2013 S85 here, going to get a bunch of supercharging in next month as I travel from Virginia to Alabama and back.
Probably going to top out at 90 still because Tesla would prefer to think the 60 and 85 packs didn't exist.
I have a 2018 Model X 100D and I took a photo with what was the fastest rate I received, 168kw from a V3 supercharger. It was actually faster than that but by the time I got my phone out to take a picture the rate reduced a little!
I'd say Tesla did that to prevent warranty cases for degraded batteries while advertising too high charging speeds. Now they got sued and have to change it back.
They changed this at least 1-2 years ago.
Why 85 kwh battery packs are not having this upgraded?
Good question ! I want an answer!
Do you have a graph of Time vs Charge%, that might give a better visualisation of the fastest charging and when to stop.
Bull shit! I'm at 70% getting 34kw.... I'm hurt lol
Which update number resulted in this change? I’m sitting on a pending update 2020.48.37.6 I haven’t clicked on yet. I did see 119kW on our ‘13 S for like 3 seconds on a 150kW station the other day.
Also on 2015 70D ?
The speed unlocked is fastest all the was to 85% even compared to the original!
What other car company spends any effort on improving 5 year old cars?
Hope they do the same for 70
The 90 pack should called the 81kWh Pack - 4kWh Buffer - degradation..
It's common in the car industry (other brands) to also have top/bottom buffers. And bricking protection at the bottom is mandatory of course...
I full charged my S 85 and get 375km typical. Is this normal? I thought I am having a 85 with 420km range.
Yes, that's correct. They reduced the range (usable capacity of the 85 pack) in August 2019 together with the much worse charging curve.
@@ursweiss I didn't get this, can you please kindly explain what happened and why this was done?
@@ursweiss What? Why? What's the point in spending more and buying a 85. Was this communicated to owners?
So, now, If my car says 90% then, it's actually 80% of the true capacity. If my car says 100%, then, it's actually 90% of the true capacity. Then, I can peaceful charge to 90% for daily use and maybe 100% for trips, if needed.
I do noticed that the supercharging is only 80kw, for type-2 and also for CCS. Very slow.
Yes reduce capacity 85 pack, in Stats app when I charge I see info “charging XX kWh of 74kWh” means the 85 capacity is reduced (obviously some kWh is hidden for buffer but should appear at least 80kWh not less…)
@@karkar7622 I am getting "Nominal full pack : 74.6kwh". "Energy buffer : 4kwh".
Does this mean, the usable is only 70.6kwh?
I also see "Full rated range : 454 km" and "Full typical range : 364km"... Terribly sad to see these numbers.
Could it be that they removed the restriction after amending the battery warranty for Model X and S. It think they put a mileage limit just like with 3 and Y. So, perhaps now they don't care about battery degradation as long as it does not fall below 70%? It really depends on whether older Model X and S are grandfathered in - unlimited miles, 8 years, but no degradation threshold.
How is the 70% considered for MS 85 RWD?
New is 85kwh full pack(including buffer), and 70% is 59.5kwh(including buffer)?.
So, 71% at 160000kms is normal and not covered?
Do you think Tesla is doing this to get people out of the charging spot faster, due to excess demand? (at a cost of worse battery degradation to owners)?
Or trying to wear the batteries out quicker? Hoping that owners purchase another car?
@@dlpereira that's what I'm thinking too. They're not dumb in fact Tesla is smart, in an evil way
Nope, that's wrong assumption. Tesla's main goals when designing cars have always been to take very good care of the battery. Every Tesla has active cooling. And many Teslas also have active heating of the battery, recommended charge limit to 90 %, giving you a warning if you charge repeatedly to 100 % and so on. If Tesla didn't care about battery health as you guys claim, they should do it like Nissan (Leaf) and VW (e-Golf, e-Up) and not have active cooling of the battery.
@@bjornnyland OK, so maybe they are not trying to "kill" your battery on purpose (being evil) but would you agree since Tesla is opening up superchargers to other EV's, and also with so many new cars sold (and not enough new superchargers built fast enough), that they do this so that Tesla cars leave the charging spot quicker? There is, after all, a super high idle fee. This way, more supercharger spots "available"? Cost is slightly worse battery degradation but Tesla is slightly more protected vs other cars with the active cooling agreed
Just my opinion. No, I don't think so. I believe some breakthrough happened with BMS and they are confident enough for the 75, and 90 packs.
However, the 85 packs could have more issues than the other packs, which Tesla could be working on it, or might be not under priority considering the development and R&D required for other projects.
What about LG Chem model 3 2021??
NA
Björn please care about your title and speaking. NOT ALL 85 PACKS ARE NERFED, just a few. My one still charges up to 140kw, ok just for short time, aber I need still about 40-45min to reach 70-75%, what I also needed in the beginning. We are talking here about 5 MIN longer or less. If its not a really serious nerf like a few have, its almost not noticable. Just the kw are lower or drop faster, but the time is almost the same. Only bad thing here is, that Tesla doesnt say anything about it. Communication is bad as always with Tesla. But in the end, better that way than how GM dealed with the problem...
I love my car to much to Super Screw it!
1000 km challenge with 2017 Tesla?
Why are the 85 packs nerft?
My e-bike charger is 110 watt. It would take a month to charge one of those cars haha.
Looks good, so it brings ca. 7 min.
Well, if you charge from low to almost full then yes, but if you're using the superchargers as they were intended originally you likely charge from 10 to 50% very often for long range travel. In that case it's really not an issue (but I get your point, for the record).
@@chrisobber5604 you do not charge just up to 50% with S and X from the older times. The Battery is smaller and you need more energy per km. In best cases I charge up to 65% but also often higher. Furthermore if you look carefully to the charge curve you see that the advantage will be achieved in lower SoC areas and kept in the upper part. It is a significant contribution to the charging speed as every minute after 25 Minutes counts double.
My S85 still slow….
70d 2015?
This was on a V2 charger, right? Maybe it could be even faster on a v3 charger or is the limitation in the ccs adapter then?
CCS adapter seems to be limited to 135 kW.
I was under the impression that the slow down in the charging kicks in as the battery is filling up. This was discussed as a way to preserve battery longivity. So they changed the charging curve while keeping the same battery degredation?
Is the driver's door open, why do we see paint?
You do that on almost all cars. It is normal to see the window sill.
elongate