Pikes are actually not that bad. They just do not fit your playing style. Your style of breaking up formations and skrimishing between gaps is a barbarian tactic (although sometimes also adopted by Romans). Macedonians knew the vulnerability of pikes on the flanks, therefore all pikes fight in large combined formations. Shield bearers (elite hoplites) or swordsmen were placed on the flanks. NEVER turn your pikes to face enemy flanking force like that.
I mean, they're not perfect. I had a unit of pikemen get shredded by 2 units of thracian skirmishers or peltasts (which ever the cheaper one is) in melee mainly. That being said, pikes are still very useful in traditional tactics barring abnormalities like this.
@@crusader7659 Pikes beat almost anything in campaign if in formation, they are just incredibly weak against missiles compared to hoplites so they arent really viable.
i agree, i do well with pikes because I prefer to let my center do their think and focus my attention on my flanks using pincer tactics. pikes hold the center, light melee and spear infantry attack flanks, cavalry attack enemy archers and other cav. i tend to keep my army together in a line which favors pikes or hopolites
He's very well aware of that. Playing Pikes in large formations doesn't negate the sheer bugginess of the units, though. When played as your suggesting, they're merely able to derp around for longer periods. They still don't perform as they're supposed too unless you literally sit there and spam attack orders on the enemy unit. Then, and only then, do they actually start pushing forward like a true Pike formation should.
i love this game and use pikes but it drives me crazy how they dont really attack. they just sort of sit there while the enemy attack their pikes. IRL real pikes could attack and its what made swiss mercenaries so feared and effective. they learned to run in formation and could charge an enemy.
I'm not the most experienced at the game mechanics, but it does always feel like people just look at pikes wrong, focusing too much on units offensive abilities. Pikes are more about position and engagement then anything else, notably they always seem to do far better when kept as a unified formation (essentially acting to control the enemies movements) instead of breaking them up for 1v1 unit fights.
Your description of them is pretty damn good .-. I mean if I look at it that's certainly true, since if you just ignore the pikes and take out the rest of the army or an important part of it, like peltasts skirmishers etc. or cav, pikes would be utterly useless unless the guy simply boxes up, but mostly they don't have enough to box up. (well if they're not douches and spam pikes and camp :c)
Finally someone who understand! Pikemen forces the enemy behind a wall, the focus is hammer and anvil - you hold them in position with pokes and then ride up the line with companion cavalry
the saddest part of the Pike phalanx story in Rome 2 is that it could have easily have been resolved if CA would have simply made a unit consists of 256 men as they did historically. A historical unit of pike phalanx was called a syntagma and consisted of a 16 deep by 16 wide Square formation which made the phalanx essentially have four faces as the phalangiest would rise pikes turn about face left to right or even diagonally in a square formation then lower pikes after maneuvering again. Had they programmed these mechanics specifically for pike units instead of giving them the same blanket mechanics that all RT2 infantry units have pikes maybe just maybe might have been functional. Now I realize that having a 256 man unit on the field makes for some balancing issues but none that I don't see having been resolved easily with some nerfing here and there . I love CA I am a die hard fan of total war for years but it just seems like they got lazy and didn't want to do that extra bit of programming. Sad... just sad. If anyone can see any other reason why perhaps they did not program pikes different please tell me
I believe the reason why some of your pikes performed well while others didn't is because the ones that had a lot of kills had cav charging enemy units from behind. Pikes in the game damage through contact, but with the low weapon damage of most pike units this does not happen often. However when cav charges enemy units from behind, notice how the units are forced into the pikes, increasing the number of kills. Which by the way is also how pikes worked in real life, in conjunction with other units. A lot of people forgot about the support required to make pikes effective, including many military commanders after Alexander, which was one of the reasons Rome was able to subjugate the successor kingdoms.
Michael Bialas yes i ment to say longer pikes as well in order to hold the enemy at bay better, those are simple things to ask for and would finally give pikes a role on the battlefield.
How to fix pikes: 1.) Fix their weird, gimmicky movement. They need to stay in formation, and keep their pikes oriented in the correct direction 2.) Increase their basic, out-of-phalanx stats slightly, so that they don't melt quite as fast if caught in melee. 3.) Increase their attack and armor piercing. 4.) MOST IMPORTANT, get them to push into the enemies. They need to attempt to keep as many pikes attacking the enemy as possible. In exchange for all of this, perhaps increase the price of elite tier pikes (Thorax, Foot Companions, Bronze Shields, etc.) a bit, and maybe normal pikes and levy pikes about 20 talents.
How to use pikes: 1) keep them in fucking line with each other and have Hoplites/swordsmen on the ends and two units of Hoplites in the centre. The centre Hoplites are important. 2) once the opponents make contact with the pikes, order all the pikes to move forward. Don't order them to attack the enemy, just order them to move forward. They will push the enemy backwards, dealing decent damage while taking very little damage themselves 3), use skirmishers/cavalry to go round the enemy infantry and charge them from the back while the hoplies/thorax swords fold in and attack from the sides. The enemy infantry will be preoccupied with pikes and will get absolutely fucked. Just make sure you have still have something on the sides to keep your pikes from being flanked. That's what you should be trying to do anyway. A competent opponent will often split his line into two and try to attack from the sides. If they do, break your line as well, and do exactly as you would otherwise but with two lines of pikes rather than one. The Hoplites at the centre are to prevent the new flanks being too vulnerable. Explosive artillery or armies with lots of skirmishers will fuck up your pikemen. Take them out with your cavalry before they can do too much damage. Even if you lose most of your cavalry, it's worth it. Explosives break up the Pike phalanx and make it incredibly vulnerable.
I think they just need to increase the pikes' damage and armor piercing. Catching pikes out of formation (although not that hard to do) should give swordsmen the edge so I don't mind their attack/defense stats and to prevent pike boxes their armor and shield block chance is good too.
Pikes are fixed now. Also depends how you use the Pikes. Be aggressive with pikes and support them with cav attacks/missile coverage and hoplite flank security.
1st of all, Pikes need to be in the center of your army with atleast 2-4 units of spear/sword infantry on its flanks, and on top of that cavalry, leaving pikes to fend for themselves is hopeless. They are meant to be a holding force while ure flanks push the enemy back and cavalry finish it all off.
Heir, I know I'm REALLY late to the party on this one, but glad to hear you feeling better. Always enjoy your videos. I think I will go into a depression or something once you move on to Attila. Okay, that is a complete exaggeration, but I will definitely miss it. Really appreciate all the videos. Keep up the great work.
The Macedonians are my favourite in the campaign, however I am yet to get the chance to use them online. I think the pikes are meant to be used as a blocking force in the Macedonian strategy, whereby you can reel around with your heavy shock cavalry and try to win the game from there. As you said, very doable on the campaign map, a different story playing against another human. Thanks for the comprehensive video, enjoyed watching it. :)
I like pikes and usually do well with them in pvp still. I dont know, must just be me. Ill bring about 5 units. Mine will get about 80-100 kills each if used well. My Ill use thesalian and campanion cav with them. The key is guarding the flanks with good units and keeping the skirmish threat up IMO.
i managed to do great in campaign by combining plenty of pikes with light or medium spears for flanks and plenty of slingers. the slingers kill skirmishers, spears guard the flanks, and pikes hit the center. if the enemy tries to circle to my rear i keep either extra spears or extra pikes. probably my favorite "cheap" unit sets are egyptian pikes coupled with nubian spears since the nubians are FAST and can run down cavalry and can go toe to toe with medium tier cavalry and are almost as mobile as cavalry themselves.
Something interesting to think about: Start with a normal battle, fight as you normally would. Then do a rematch but remove all units that ended up in the red (or orange, depending on your house rules). Then fight again to see who is the proper winner. I see many battles where kill count is about similar and I think war of attrition type rematch like that would really add in more strategy.
Watching this I've remember the change of colour of many factions some time after the release of TWR2. Macedon was black and yellow then and actually I liked it more thus. Do you know if there are any mod to change the colour of this faction back to it's original black and yellow?
the macedonian army was extremely battle- effective and had intimidating view for every opponent, Phillip the 5th and perseas lost battles because of crucial strategic mistakes and because they did not used the entire army units of those that Alexander used in the past..(hypaspists, missiles)....the cavalry use to support the infantry pikemen who use to stop enemy's attack ...Also these two leaders did not manage to hide pikemens' disadvantages (rear and flanks) so they gave to the Romans easy victories..
Just thinking, but maybe all pikes need is high(er) attack? Make them into sort of a glass cannon unit, so if the unit has secure flanks, it'll just slaughter anything from the front. If you can break the formation (something else I'd like to see would be units not being able to get into unit formations while engaged in melee and being able to be knocked out formation by a ferocious enough charge, just to counter the 2 or 3 man deep formations you see ALL the time) or flank them or get inside their pikes, their low defense will see them quickly routed.
That certainly allies with historical fact - untouchable from the front, extremely vulnerable from sides. Even hoplites could face a rear/flank attack more quickly.
Pikes are for hammer and anvil tactics, not good for offensive strategies.. I personally use less pikemen and spread them thin on the front line for the initial charge (they can even wreck barbarian faction charges if the general is stupid enough to charge them straight into them), backed up by heavy spears or infantry for late battle. They're really just great for tying up the enemy for a long time while your cavalry slaughters the enemy flanks. And given Macedon's significant quality cavalry, they're a great faction with these tactics
Upgrading the attack stat on pikes would actually be good since that's what determines whether pikes make units stumble back or not, if they had like roman infantry level attack they'd be ok.
I agree pikes should be buffed... I mean a giant stick with a very sharp steel end would kind of make my insides spill out... Also do you plan on doing anymore campaigns? Cuz I'd love to see more I'm currently watching all of our old rome2 and Shogun2 campaigns
Heir have you ever tried an extreme challenge battle, like only hoplites or no cav or only melee? It would be really funny if, for instance, there was a horde of oathsworn against praetorian guard. :)
they should just up the attack on pikes because its hard enough to get them in position and properly engaged ontop of the weakness to missiles means there is plenty of ways to deal with them so they wont be op meatgrinders
so were the pikemen ever fixed? In Rome II I tend to play the Gallic factions, in particular my favorite is the Namnetes due to their location. Their starting province offers lumber and if you research the first 2 technologies for siege warfare you get your engines that just do MASSIVE damage against other tribes in the area and Britain has been an easy land to conquer for it. Playing as with spears again is going to feel weird as I have gotten used to the swordsmen charging in and cutting down other spearmen now while coming from the flanks with archers and slingers and withering the AI down. Really am ready to try Macedon out!
Pikes are the perfect unit if u use them well. Use many units of them to build up a defensive wall und support them with a thorax swordsmen unit for each pike unit. U will decimate any enemy army which runs into ur pike wall
You have to use pikes offensively (like they were used in reality) and mixing pikes with faster supporting units that can close gaps in your line definitely helps. And never run around without pike phalanx when enemies are close!
I always try to hold my line with hoplites in mp and then somehow get my pikes behind them, a fair tactic if the enemy has little skirmishers (otherwise they get lit up)
Vanilla has pikes set up okay ImHo; they will kill enemy units so long as you micro them (order them to push thru the enemy). However, pikes were never really killing machines as depicted in Rome 1 and 2; they were blocking/pining forces best used in conjunction with flanking attacks. DeI does a much better job of simulating this aspect. As well, the shield values in DeI make most frontal missile fire irrelevant for shielded units.
In real life pikes on its own would not do a lot of damage by itself as well. As it turns out the 18-foot-long sarissa is a problem in and of itself: its simply too unwieldy. That's why historical (and sensible) pike armies stood in tight formations with secure flanks and supporting missile troops and cavalry, and an extra line of men in front of the pike formation (the space between the pikemen and the pike points) with short swords to ward off enemies who got past the pikes. I think the current Rome 2 actually reflects this point really well, that pikes aren't effective on their own, and require support from other units.
Jaisung Huh Yeah well I think the problem is that in current meta, non-formation attack units are overpowered, which is why the meta is in favor of barb swords. I think turning on formation attack should also increase unit morale to represent unit cohesion. That and some units carry way too many javelins. I mean where are they keeping all that sh*t?
@@AzureDragon100 Well it's just a game, in reality. Alexander's Phalanx are offensive not defensive, they push kill and push enemies away. Rome 2 they just stand there not pushing the enemies as to what happens in reality.
CA needs to make the pikemen a lot better and one idea could be to add a special ability button where the pikemen charge, bit like frenzied charge, so they crash into enemy ranks...? Any ideas?
I don't think that pikes historically would have had much killing power, they were just the anvil and the cavalry would have pushed enemies into them. Maybe some kind of bonus could be applied to the pikes when you rear-charge the enemy fighting them.
Sometimes i like to cover myself in vaselin i just squirm around on the ground and say ''slug...slug...slug..." is this just a part of growing up?? will i ever be able to not live in fear of having salt poured on my back and of dying a horrible death??? im too scared to ask my parents
It's partially the kill animations fault, because in rome 1 ther would be like 2-3 guys stabbing one which would kill him a lot faster than in rome 2's 1v1 or i might just be tripping balls wrong xD but sriously their stats should be fixed or SOMETHING! >o
pikes can be offensive if in the right situation but you must keep clicking the attack button so they push forward and helps get kills, but yes you need to have a line formation and have ot figure out how to get your enemy to engage you with the pointy end of spear coming at them lol
You can get kills with them but they just aren't worth their cost. You could do just as much damage with a cheaper cav unit and still have money to buy another unit too...
Thracian Warriors are 450 talents with OK and Tylis. But think about it this way: Who needs that unit to be cheaper more, Macedon or OK? Realistically, OK needs a lower price on that unit a lot more. For Macedon, it's an extra cherry on top of your build if you want some glass canon shock infantry. For OK, it's a core unit. Why does Tylis get it at 450? Simply because it's an actual recruitable unit for them. I don't think that CA can change the costs of units very easily without actually having a technically different unit (i.e. Thracian Warriors vs. Mercenary Thracian Warriors. Same unit really, but technically separate in the game files.)
They cost 420 for OK. Who uses inf heavy armies with OK anyway, most guys me included go for skirm and Cav heavy with OK. It works well if you can micro it well. Um no all CA has to do is go in the game files and change the price to 420 it really would take about 1-2 minutes to do. Most of the stat and price changes the community want would take only a few hours to do through the game files.
With barbarian factions why not reduce their charge bonus and give them bounces in woods or reduce the number of javelins the levey freemen get. (or Morgan Freeman if you prefer).
Not very historic, infantry units splitting up, heading in all directions, pikes have to follow ! pikes need an attack while walking forwards, ATM they just move forward.
In order to allow the effective use of pikes: Why can't CA put the mods "Pikemen start battles with pikes" by Boicote's Workshop and "Proper pikes" by Gieldur's Workshop" into the game, as I have never heard or read about any pike units not lowering their main armament before advancing, or the insanely heroic, moving into contact with pikes up, then lowering after contact has been made. The Proper pikes allows pikes to be used sensibly by nations who adopted the pike as their main armament, or else why would they? Then maybe Macedon and the like would use the weapon that made their name in history. I do understand the Macedonian all arms, hammer and anvil techniques but why would anyone use pikes in their current state, other than for blocking?
Did you know that when Rome invaded Greece when Philip the 5th i think his name was the pike units would in unison point ther pikes straight into the air slot show there surrendering
I think I know what you’re on about. I don’t think it was so much surrendering as it was how they had to withdraw. I heard of a battle where the Macedonian Pikes raised their pikes to withdraw but the Romans didn’t understand this and pressed the attack leading to the slaughter of many of the front line pikemen
@@dueltaylorI think the Romans be like:"Nah, F**k it. Just kills this cowards!", they are winning the battle and very angry after suffering heavy casualty to wall of Pikes. Went the Macedons break formation and flee, they just swarm the enemy and cut them down with full of rage and anger
The thing with pikes is that some fools on the forums think that that they are good... Because they can get alot of kill against the AI or in city assault... Some people really dont get that the AI isnt a reference at all. I even saw someone say that pike are ok atm, it's just that we figured out how to beat them but people didnt back then. XD Basically: pikes are fine, it's us that are too smart (those people make me sad) :*(
larger armies, limit the freedom in how much you can stretch and shape a unit.. dont allow units to morph through one another, kill the single mokap animations and i think pikes would work how they should :)
Where's Egypt? I looked though the videos but I couldn't see. I want to know the best melee infantry unit for my generals in campaign. Which one is the most offensive and which one is the most defensive?
I think the reason for the pikes being sucky is because the low weapon damage, and how the units are locked to fight 1v1. In a fight between a spear and a sword, sword wins, but if there is a lot of spears, then spear wins. more so if pikes. that's what I think anyways
I was thinking about an army possibility a while ago and thought I might as well mention it to attempt to get opinions. I do not play TW:R2; however, I watch videos and have studied the game to some degree. The build will infuriate many people since it is skirmisher heavy; however, provided the user is fighting someone who will not quit during the battle, I think it should work. This build requires 11630 talents. Parthia 1 Royal Cataphract (General) 3 Eastern Cataphracts 2 Noble Blood Cavalry 1 Armored Horse Archer 6 Parthian Horse Archers 6 Eastern Slingers The idea is that the slingers will destroy the enemy skirmishers- Eastern Slingers are not terrible, and there are six of them, so I think it should work against most factions- and then fire the remainder of their ammunition into other enemies. Slingers have a good amount of ammunition, so they can fire for a long time. Since there is no main line of infantry, you can stall the engagement indefinitely. After the slingers kill the enemy skirmishers- or simultaneously, if you prefer- the horse archers harass the enemy cavalry. The cataphracts can charge the enemy cavalry and then withdraw while the Noble Blood Cavalry engages the enemy. Once the enemy cavalry is destroyed, the enemy main line will have two options: 1: Take archer fire on heavy shot in the rear from horse archers or 2: Be charged in the rear by cataphracts. I would appreciate anyone's opinion on this tactic.
Desertfox I think the Noble Blood Cavalry should stay since they would do better in a prolonged melee with other cavalry than cataphracts; however, your idea could easily be superior to mine. I would like to know, however, why you would switch those for more cataphracts- is four not enough?
Michael Rex No in the current MP meta 5-6 cataphracts is a must. you have a good build although you could scrap parthian HA for Scythians and bring more foot skirms, but you do have to have the micro to use that, very few players do.
Michael Rex If you want we can play matches were we use our skirmish builds, I can promise you though that for 310 more, eastern catas are far more worth while through out the game than noble bloods. For Pontus they are fine, but factions that have cheap catas have no use for them.
It might be possible that pikes suck in rome2 because of the new fighting mechanics, since multiple units cant target one unit at the same time like in rome1 for the kill moves, they may have screwed up the pikes. I think they really depend on being possible for multiple pikes to hit 1 dude at the same time
The barbarians are beyond op their swords just crush the hoplites, hoplites in history were dominant, when you said "rome can hold their own against the boii" it pissed me off because your right, rome shouldnt be holding their own, rome should be wiping the floor with barbarians, same for macedon, when you do your faction focus every famous faction is lacking yet the barbarian factions are gods.... Playing as barbarians should be the challenge not factions like rome and macedon!
I noticed this video is about a year old. Have they updated the pike infantry? Because I played Rome 2 a bit over the last week and although I'm not sure how it is on pvp, but I've dominated the AI when playing on campaign with pike infantry. I even tested the best Macedon pike unit against the best of hoplites and roman infantry in 1 on 1 battles and the pikes keep winning. Is it just because the AI is so incompetent that I've been winning?
+RantingRyuu728 Heir had very thin pikelines and wasn't using their strength (multiple rank attacks) to his advantage. Also every single one of his pike unit got flanked and he forgot to lower pikes on multiple instances xD
He's doing a faction focus for all factions now, just before the release of Atilla. Some factions would have changed since his previous faction focus on those factions, but now they seem unlikely to receive major changes.
I don't really agree with your analysis of Macedon. Maybe its just because I don't face enough challenging opponents anymore, but I have found there are a few ways to make Macedon pretty good. Hoplites are great in this patch. Thats the core infantry you should use as macedon. They will eventually lose to any good swords, but they can hold out long enough for Thracian warriors, Royal Peltasts, skirmish units, and cav to deliver the fatal blow. Even at 500, Thracian warriors can easily pay for themselves if used correctly. The same goes for Aspis cav. They aren't amazing anymore, but they can still punish infantry. They have all the tools they need to beat all of the civilized factions and potentially the barbarians. The biggest issue with macedon lies in the fact that each unit must be used in a particular role, and if not executed correctly, you will lose. Much depends on winning the cav fight, so what I like to do is use my thracian warriors in the cav fight to speed it up. Overall, their cav will lose to good melee cav (around 700 price), but if you do manage to win the cav fight, it is basically gg. I like to do 5 or 6 hoplites (sometimes i even replace a couple with militia hoplites), 2 or 3 thracian warriors, a couple elite cav (companion or aspis), 3 or 4 thessalians, and 3 cretans/4 slingers. That usually works out for me.
Hey heir, instead of making stat changes to disciplined swordsmen like Libyans, Thorax, Pontic, Parthian, all them. What if they were just reduced in recruitment cost. They could be priced about 550-620 and keep the barbarian swords at their current price. Except maybe the Iberians. They could also maybe use a price reduction. I say this because I think the "civilized factions" could bring troops at a cheaper price that are inferior to the superior barbarian swords. This would help with the balancing and I think it'd be historically accurate as well.
Personally I would prefer it if they didn't buff hellenic swords. It seems to me that swords should really be the strength of barbs/rome. What hellenic factions really need is pikes that don't suck balls.
Pikes are actually not that bad. They just do not fit your playing style. Your style of breaking up formations and skrimishing between gaps is a barbarian tactic (although sometimes also adopted by Romans). Macedonians knew the vulnerability of pikes on the flanks, therefore all pikes fight in large combined formations. Shield bearers (elite hoplites) or swordsmen were placed on the flanks. NEVER turn your pikes to face enemy flanking force like that.
I mean, they're not perfect. I had a unit of pikemen get shredded by 2 units of thracian skirmishers or peltasts (which ever the cheaper one is) in melee mainly. That being said, pikes are still very useful in traditional tactics barring abnormalities like this.
@@crusader7659 Pikes beat almost anything in campaign if in formation, they are just incredibly weak against missiles compared to hoplites so they arent really viable.
i agree, i do well with pikes because I prefer to let my center do their think and focus my attention on my flanks using pincer tactics. pikes hold the center, light melee and spear infantry attack flanks, cavalry attack enemy archers and other cav. i tend to keep my army together in a line which favors pikes or hopolites
He's very well aware of that. Playing Pikes in large formations doesn't negate the sheer bugginess of the units, though. When played as your suggesting, they're merely able to derp around for longer periods. They still don't perform as they're supposed too unless you literally sit there and spam attack orders on the enemy unit. Then, and only then, do they actually start pushing forward like a true Pike formation should.
In reality, pikes were one of the most effective infantry formations until the bayonet was invented.
i love this game and use pikes but it drives me crazy how they dont really attack. they just sort of sit there while the enemy attack their pikes. IRL real pikes could attack and its what made swiss mercenaries so feared and effective. they learned to run in formation and could charge an enemy.
@@arthas640 after the clash make double click on the enemy and the pikes advance
@@jarlnils435 I gess he and I know
Bayoneted converted early gun into a pike. Musket meta
I'm not the most experienced at the game mechanics, but it does always feel like people just look at pikes wrong, focusing too much on units offensive abilities. Pikes are more about position and engagement then anything else, notably they always seem to do far better when kept as a unified formation (essentially acting to control the enemies movements) instead of breaking them up for 1v1 unit fights.
TheWhiskyDelta i agree with u.
Your description of them is pretty damn good .-. I mean if I look at it that's certainly true, since if you just ignore the pikes and take out the rest of the army or an important part of it, like peltasts skirmishers etc. or cav, pikes would be utterly useless unless the guy simply boxes up, but mostly they don't have enough to box up. (well if they're not douches and spam pikes and camp :c)
Finally someone who understand! Pikemen forces the enemy behind a wall, the focus is hammer and anvil - you hold them in position with pokes and then ride up the line with companion cavalry
@@brytenwaldaco.productions825 He kinda mentions it (without noticing) 12:24
Ok Lindeybeige you've never meet a Swiss men.
Honestly though pikes are somewhat useful for defending cities, use them in phalanx in the narrow streets or at gate etc. They can be useful for sure.
the saddest part of the Pike phalanx story in Rome 2 is that it could have easily have been resolved if CA would have simply made a unit consists of 256 men as they did historically. A historical unit of pike phalanx was called a syntagma and consisted of a 16 deep by 16 wide Square formation which made the phalanx essentially have four faces as the phalangiest would rise pikes turn about face left to right or even diagonally in a square formation then lower pikes after maneuvering again. Had they programmed these mechanics specifically for pike units instead of giving them the same blanket mechanics that all RT2 infantry units have pikes maybe just maybe might have been functional. Now I realize that having a 256 man unit on the field makes for some balancing issues but none that I don't see having been resolved easily with some nerfing here and there . I love CA I am a die hard fan of total war for years but it just seems like they got lazy and didn't want to do that extra bit of programming. Sad... just sad. If anyone can see any other reason why perhaps they did not program pikes different please tell me
I believe the reason why some of your pikes performed well while others didn't is because the ones that had a lot of kills had cav charging enemy units from behind. Pikes in the game damage through contact, but with the low weapon damage of most pike units this does not happen often. However when cav charges enemy units from behind, notice how the units are forced into the pikes, increasing the number of kills. Which by the way is also how pikes worked in real life, in conjunction with other units. A lot of people forgot about the support required to make pikes effective, including many military commanders after Alexander, which was one of the reasons Rome was able to subjugate the successor kingdoms.
truer words have never been spoken
This might be true but it's also just because cav flanking causes alot of kills. Hammer and anvilling with sword units would have done similar damage.
the least CA could do to make pikes a little better is giving them more men, simple as that and it would make them far more useful.
More men would be great. I would love to at least get to try that
HeirofCarthage Maxiumus's recommendations are actually really sound. Bigger units, more pikes, linger pikes.
Michael Bialas longer*
Michael Bialas yes i ment to say longer pikes as well in order to hold the enemy at bay better, those are simple things to ask for and would finally give pikes a role on the battlefield.
Ecthelion Nolofinwe for me pikes are awesome, almost invencible if you charge them with any unit
12:33 Heir's description made me think that they recruit pacifist homosexuals for pikemen in Rome 2
That is a very realistic posibilty, at least after patch 5 or so
joelscheur I remember when the game first came out they were monstrous killing machines. Now, not so much.
All the killing machines died out
LOL
How to fix pikes:
1.) Fix their weird, gimmicky movement. They need to stay in formation, and keep their pikes oriented in the correct direction
2.) Increase their basic, out-of-phalanx stats slightly, so that they don't melt quite as fast if caught in melee.
3.) Increase their attack and armor piercing.
4.) MOST IMPORTANT, get them to push into the enemies. They need to attempt to keep as many pikes attacking the enemy as possible.
In exchange for all of this, perhaps increase the price of elite tier pikes (Thorax, Foot Companions, Bronze Shields, etc.) a bit, and maybe normal pikes and levy pikes about 20 talents.
really glad I found this Channel, I'm a huge fan of strategy based games.
I always Start my Day with one of your Videos.
Foolish AI sacrificed his general to my companian cav charge 😂
How to use pikes:
1) keep them in fucking line with each other and have Hoplites/swordsmen on the ends and two units of Hoplites in the centre. The centre Hoplites are important.
2) once the opponents make contact with the pikes, order all the pikes to move forward. Don't order them to attack the enemy, just order them to move forward. They will push the enemy backwards, dealing decent damage while taking very little damage themselves
3), use skirmishers/cavalry to go round the enemy infantry and charge them from the back while the hoplies/thorax swords fold in and attack from the sides. The enemy infantry will be preoccupied with pikes and will get absolutely fucked. Just make sure you have still have something on the sides to keep your pikes from being flanked.
That's what you should be trying to do anyway. A competent opponent will often split his line into two and try to attack from the sides. If they do, break your line as well, and do exactly as you would otherwise but with two lines of pikes rather than one. The Hoplites at the centre are to prevent the new flanks being too vulnerable.
Explosive artillery or armies with lots of skirmishers will fuck up your pikemen. Take them out with your cavalry before they can do too much damage. Even if you lose most of your cavalry, it's worth it. Explosives break up the Pike phalanx and make it incredibly vulnerable.
Best video description ever!
I think they just need to increase the pikes' damage and armor piercing.
Catching pikes out of formation (although not that hard to do) should give swordsmen the edge so I don't mind their attack/defense stats and to prevent pike boxes their armor and shield block chance is good too.
also an increase in size for pike units would be nice. for example 160 or 180 men in pike units
Pikes are fixed now. Also depends how you use the Pikes. Be aggressive with pikes and support them with cav attacks/missile coverage and hoplite flank security.
Love your vids, Ive learned alot from them. What kind of set-up do you use to record your games?
1st of all, Pikes need to be in the center of your army with atleast 2-4 units of spear/sword infantry on its flanks, and on top of that cavalry, leaving pikes to fend for themselves is hopeless. They are meant to be a holding force while ure flanks push the enemy back and cavalry finish it all off.
That doesn't work though. That's the problem any good barb rusher can own that army easily.
People need to stop thinking that just because they won once doesn't mean that strategy is the solution to all
Desertfox i won vs barbarian rush using pikes and other units
@@The_IowegianPeople think that what works in campaign will work online.
Heir, I know I'm REALLY late to the party on this one, but glad to hear you feeling better. Always enjoy your videos. I think I will go into a depression or something once you move on to Attila. Okay, that is a complete exaggeration, but I will definitely miss it. Really appreciate all the videos. Keep up the great work.
Ah pikes nothing highlights the problem with the engine for this game better than they do
The Macedonians are my favourite in the campaign, however I am yet to get the chance to use them online. I think the pikes are meant to be used as a blocking force in the Macedonian strategy, whereby you can reel around with your heavy shock cavalry and try to win the game from there. As you said, very doable on the campaign map, a different story playing against another human. Thanks for the comprehensive video, enjoyed watching it. :)
I like pikes and usually do well with them in pvp still. I dont know, must just be me. Ill bring about 5 units. Mine will get about 80-100 kills each if used well. My Ill use thesalian and campanion cav with them. The key is guarding the flanks with good units and keeping the skirmish threat up IMO.
i managed to do great in campaign by combining plenty of pikes with light or medium spears for flanks and plenty of slingers. the slingers kill skirmishers, spears guard the flanks, and pikes hit the center. if the enemy tries to circle to my rear i keep either extra spears or extra pikes. probably my favorite "cheap" unit sets are egyptian pikes coupled with nubian spears since the nubians are FAST and can run down cavalry and can go toe to toe with medium tier cavalry and are almost as mobile as cavalry themselves.
Something interesting to think about:
Start with a normal battle, fight as you normally would. Then do a rematch but remove all units that ended up in the red (or orange, depending on your house rules). Then fight again to see who is the proper winner. I see many battles where kill count is about similar and I think war of attrition type rematch like that would really add in more strategy.
That was the best description of 'Pikemen' I've heard. They're basically 'Broom-men', just gently sweeping the enemy away.
good descriptions since they dont really beat the enemy, they just gently poke them until they leave.
Watching this I've remember the change of colour of many factions some time after the release of TWR2. Macedon was black and yellow then and actually I liked it more thus.
Do you know if there are any mod to change the colour of this faction back to it's original black and yellow?
the macedonian army was extremely battle- effective and had intimidating view for every opponent, Phillip the 5th and perseas lost battles because of crucial strategic mistakes and because they did not used the entire army units of those that Alexander used in the past..(hypaspists, missiles)....the cavalry use to support the infantry pikemen who use to stop enemy's attack ...Also these two leaders did not manage to hide pikemens' disadvantages (rear and flanks) so they gave to the Romans easy victories..
Αλήθεια φίλος, πολύ καλά. Διαβάζεις ιστορία;
Just thinking, but maybe all pikes need is high(er) attack? Make them into sort of a glass cannon unit, so if the unit has secure flanks, it'll just slaughter anything from the front. If you can break the formation (something else I'd like to see would be units not being able to get into unit formations while engaged in melee and being able to be knocked out formation by a ferocious enough charge, just to counter the 2 or 3 man deep formations you see ALL the time) or flank them or get inside their pikes, their low defense will see them quickly routed.
That certainly allies with historical fact - untouchable from the front, extremely vulnerable from sides. Even hoplites could face a rear/flank attack more quickly.
I like playing as Macedon,but one thing I can't stand is spamming attack with pikemen
Pikes are for hammer and anvil tactics, not good for offensive strategies.. I personally use less pikemen and spread them thin on the front line for the initial charge (they can even wreck barbarian faction charges if the general is stupid enough to charge them straight into them), backed up by heavy spears or infantry for late battle. They're really just great for tying up the enemy for a long time while your cavalry slaughters the enemy flanks. And given Macedon's significant quality cavalry, they're a great faction with these tactics
Heir buddy you need to let the pike thing go.
😂 a gentle poking. Can you move along guys, we dont want to hurt ya. Great😆
I know this is an old video but if you do a series like this again, are you able to do a brief history on the faction?
Upgrading the attack stat on pikes would actually be good since that's what determines whether pikes make units stumble back or not, if they had like roman infantry level attack they'd be ok.
I agree pikes should be buffed... I mean a giant stick with a very sharp steel end would kind of make my insides spill out... Also do you plan on doing anymore campaigns? Cuz I'd love to see more I'm currently watching all of our old rome2 and Shogun2 campaigns
Heir have you ever tried an extreme challenge battle, like only hoplites or no cav or only melee? It would be really funny if, for instance, there was a horde of oathsworn against praetorian guard. :)
I can't wait for the nomad factions.
they should just up the attack on pikes because its hard enough to get them in position and properly engaged ontop of the weakness to missiles means there is plenty of ways to deal with them so they wont be op meatgrinders
so were the pikemen ever fixed? In Rome II I tend to play the Gallic factions, in particular my favorite is the Namnetes due to their location. Their starting province offers lumber and if you research the first 2 technologies for siege warfare you get your engines that just do MASSIVE damage against other tribes in the area and Britain has been an easy land to conquer for it. Playing as with spears again is going to feel weird as I have gotten used to the swordsmen charging in and cutting down other spearmen now while coming from the flanks with archers and slingers and withering the AI down. Really am ready to try Macedon out!
I think that pike units should get an ncrease in weapon damage and mass and a collisition improvement.
do people still remember a couple patches ago when units would bounce of pikes like they were rubber haha
Pikes are the perfect unit if u use them well.
Use many units of them to build up a defensive wall und support them with a thorax swordsmen unit for each pike unit.
U will decimate any enemy army which runs into ur pike wall
Yes but real people don't just charge into pikes. That only works against the AI.
You have to use pikes offensively (like they were used in reality) and mixing pikes with faster supporting units that can close gaps in your line definitely helps. And never run around without pike phalanx when enemies are close!
I always try to hold my line with hoplites in mp and then somehow get my pikes behind them, a fair tactic if the enemy has little skirmishers (otherwise they get lit up)
Okay I shouldn´t be to negative. The Morgan Freeman joke was fun! :D
Change speed to 1.25 to make Heir sound like Jesse Eisenberg
Vanilla has pikes set up okay ImHo; they will kill enemy units so long as you micro them (order them to push thru the enemy). However, pikes were never really killing machines as depicted in Rome 1 and 2; they were blocking/pining forces best used in conjunction with flanking attacks. DeI does a much better job of simulating this aspect. As well, the shield values in DeI make most frontal missile fire irrelevant for shielded units.
nice battle with "Pikes" lol
Maybe it is better to buff the moral and the missile block chance. They also should fix the bugs from the pikes.
16:32 Robot heir is on it again!
In real life pikes on its own would not do a lot of damage by itself as well. As it turns out the 18-foot-long sarissa is a problem in and of itself: its simply too unwieldy. That's why historical (and sensible) pike armies stood in tight formations with secure flanks and supporting missile troops and cavalry, and an extra line of men in front of the pike formation (the space between the pikemen and the pike points) with short swords to ward off enemies who got past the pikes. I think the current Rome 2 actually reflects this point really well, that pikes aren't effective on their own, and require support from other units.
True, though pike in Rome 2 are useless even with supporting units. There is no doubt that pike is completely broken in this game. What a pity :(
Jaisung Huh Yeah well I think the problem is that in current meta, non-formation attack units are overpowered, which is why the meta is in favor of barb swords. I think turning on formation attack should also increase unit morale to represent unit cohesion. That and some units carry way too many javelins. I mean where are they keeping all that sh*t?
@@AzureDragon100 Well it's just a game, in reality. Alexander's Phalanx are offensive not defensive, they push kill and push enemies away. Rome 2 they just stand there not pushing the enemies as to what happens in reality.
pikes are amazing
Heir, you should ask CA to fix the pikes on TW forums.
Pity, CA Dropped the ball with the pikes.
Wanted to know if there was a way to talk to you privately, about a private matter?
????
tbh he probably wont get that. I dont even check my messages on youtube. Let me try him on twitter.
heirtotalwar@gmail.com
@@sunjetzu lol he did
Almost always see you having disadvantage on the map especially if you have a bad match up.
CA needs to make the pikemen a lot better and one idea could be to add a special ability button where the pikemen charge, bit like frenzied charge, so they crash into enemy ranks...? Any ideas?
I don't think that pikes historically would have had much killing power, they were just the anvil and the cavalry would have pushed enemies into them. Maybe some kind of bonus could be applied to the pikes when you rear-charge the enemy fighting them.
Sometimes i like to cover myself in vaselin
i just squirm around on the ground and say ''slug...slug...slug..." is this just a part of growing up?? will i ever be able to not live in fear of having salt poured on my back and of dying a horrible death??? im too scared to ask my parents
It's partially the kill animations fault, because in rome 1 ther would be like 2-3 guys stabbing one which would kill him a lot faster than in rome 2's 1v1
or i might just be tripping balls wrong xD but sriously their stats should be fixed or SOMETHING! >o
How come I can't use Aspis Cav when I play Rome II? They don't show up under melee cav, I can only see Citizen cav...
Has CA done ANYTHING in an attempt to improve Pike performance at this point? Or did they just lose interest as their newer games came out?
Respect for using pikes online
pikes can be offensive if in the right situation but you must keep clicking the attack button so they push forward and helps get kills, but yes you need to have a line formation and have ot figure out how to get your enemy to engage you with the pointy end of spear coming at them lol
Alexander's Phalanx are offensive not defensive.
Is anyone else having trouble launching Rome 2, mine just gets stuck on the first loading screen with the white back ground.
How much damage do you think would be appropriate for pike? I think it should be about 35-40 something.
you know that CA with Atilla coming out are just gonna forget ROME 2
They steal have a team(s) working on and patching Rome 2.
I wish they would open some hardcoded stuff for modders. But since its almost the same game, i doubt they will do.
Aspis companion Cav used to beast like katana cav from shogun 2 ! Now they just suck...
You can get kills with them but they just aren't worth their cost. You could do just as much damage with a cheaper cav unit and still have money to buy another unit too...
Thracian Warriors are 450 talents with OK and Tylis. But think about it this way: Who needs that unit to be cheaper more, Macedon or OK? Realistically, OK needs a lower price on that unit a lot more. For Macedon, it's an extra cherry on top of your build if you want some glass canon shock infantry. For OK, it's a core unit. Why does Tylis get it at 450? Simply because it's an actual recruitable unit for them. I don't think that CA can change the costs of units very easily without actually having a technically different unit (i.e. Thracian Warriors vs. Mercenary Thracian Warriors. Same unit really, but technically separate in the game files.)
They cost 420 for OK. Who uses inf heavy armies with OK anyway, most guys me included go for skirm and Cav heavy with OK. It works well if you can micro it well.
Um no all CA has to do is go in the game files and change the price to 420 it really would take about 1-2 minutes to do. Most of the stat and price changes the community want would take only a few hours to do through the game files.
With barbarian factions why not reduce their charge bonus and give them bounces in woods or reduce the number of javelins the levey freemen get. (or Morgan Freeman if you prefer).
The true Greek Macedonians 💪💪
check out that sweet Pikephalanx
should we turn around ...should we poke these guys? :D
And put the archer inside the triangle formation
Try the wolfmans unit pack , it gives 6 different types of pikes, the gold plated pikemen are the bomb
This was with an older patch, when they were shit.
Not very historic, infantry units splitting up, heading in all directions, pikes have to follow ! pikes need an attack while walking forwards, ATM they just move forward.
Why didnt you get the attila preview build all the other total war channels got it
I have a Egypt campaign an I am trying to finish it before atttila.
You saw 230 on the Onager :P
I believe pikes should be 50% bigger than a normal infantry unit tbh.
I want black clothing Macedon back. It looked so much better
get a reskin mod then...
In order to allow the effective use of pikes: Why can't CA put the mods "Pikemen start battles with pikes" by Boicote's Workshop and "Proper pikes" by Gieldur's Workshop" into the game, as I have never heard or read about any pike units not lowering their main armament before advancing, or the insanely heroic, moving into contact with pikes up, then lowering after contact has been made. The Proper pikes allows pikes to be used sensibly by nations who adopted the pike as their main armament, or else why would they? Then maybe Macedon and the like would use the weapon that made their name in history. I do understand the Macedonian all arms, hammer and anvil techniques but why would anyone use pikes in their current state, other than for blocking?
Did you know that when Rome invaded Greece when Philip the 5th i think his name was the pike units would in unison point ther pikes straight into the air slot show there surrendering
I think I know what you’re on about. I don’t think it was so much surrendering as it was how they had to withdraw.
I heard of a battle where the Macedonian Pikes raised their pikes to withdraw but the Romans didn’t understand this and pressed the attack leading to the slaughter of many of the front line pikemen
@@dueltaylor yeah I wasn’t completely sure it was more or less speculation but thx
@@dueltaylorI think the Romans be like:"Nah, F**k it. Just kills this cowards!", they are winning the battle and very angry after suffering heavy casualty to wall of Pikes. Went the Macedons break formation and flee, they just swarm the enemy and cut them down with full of rage and anger
The thing with pikes is that some fools on the forums think that that they are good... Because they can get alot of kill against the AI or in city assault...
Some people really dont get that the AI isnt a reference at all.
I even saw someone say that pike are ok atm, it's just that we figured out how to beat them but people didnt back then. XD Basically: pikes are fine, it's us that are too smart (those people make me sad) :*(
Duke Eligos lol 1v1?
larger armies, limit the freedom in how much you can stretch and shape a unit.. dont allow units to morph through one another, kill the single mokap animations and i think pikes would work how they should :)
Where's Egypt? I looked though the videos but I couldn't see. I want to know the best melee infantry unit for my generals in campaign. Which one is the most offensive and which one is the most defensive?
If he's going by the game, Egypt is listed under Ptolemy/Ptolemaic in the game files. So they'll probably be soon.
DetailedEyes Thanks for the reply.
Royal Thorax no question.
***** On offense or defense? And Why?
Do the triangle formation
I think the reason for the pikes being sucky is because the low weapon damage, and how the units are locked to fight 1v1. In a fight between a spear and a sword, sword wins, but if there is a lot of spears, then spear wins. more so if pikes. that's what I think anyways
12mjk21 wrong. pikes arent made to kill
So what is your opinion on pikemen?
Virgin Phalanx vs Chad Yari Wall
Alexander's Giga Chad Phalanx vs all.
I was thinking about an army possibility a while ago and thought I might as well mention it to attempt to get opinions. I do not play TW:R2; however, I watch videos and have studied the game to some degree.
The build will infuriate many people since it is skirmisher heavy; however, provided the user is fighting someone who will not quit during the battle, I think it should work. This build requires 11630 talents.
Parthia
1 Royal Cataphract (General)
3 Eastern Cataphracts
2 Noble Blood Cavalry
1 Armored Horse Archer
6 Parthian Horse Archers
6 Eastern Slingers
The idea is that the slingers will destroy the enemy skirmishers- Eastern Slingers are not terrible, and there are six of them, so I think it should work against most factions- and then fire the remainder of their ammunition into other enemies. Slingers have a good amount of ammunition, so they can fire for a long time. Since there is no main line of infantry, you can stall the engagement indefinitely.
After the slingers kill the enemy skirmishers- or simultaneously, if you prefer- the horse archers harass the enemy cavalry. The cataphracts can charge the enemy cavalry and then withdraw while the Noble Blood Cavalry engages the enemy.
Once the enemy cavalry is destroyed, the enemy main line will have two options:
1: Take archer fire on heavy shot in the rear from horse archers or
2: Be charged in the rear by cataphracts.
I would appreciate anyone's opinion on this tactic.
Scrap the armoured HA and the noble bloods for 2 more eastern cataphracts
Desertfox
I think the Noble Blood Cavalry should stay since they would do better in a prolonged melee with other cavalry than cataphracts; however, your idea could easily be superior to mine. I would like to know, however, why you would switch those for more cataphracts- is four not enough?
Michael Rex
No in the current MP meta 5-6 cataphracts is a must. you have a good build although you could scrap parthian HA for Scythians and bring more foot skirms, but you do have to have the micro to use that, very few players do.
Desertfox
I forgot Parthia had access to Mercenary Scythian Horse Archers. I will re-calculate the price of the army with some changes.
Michael Rex
If you want we can play matches were we use our skirmish builds, I can promise you though that for 310 more, eastern catas are far more worth while through out the game than noble bloods. For Pontus they are fine, but factions that have cheap catas have no use for them.
are pikes any good now after all the patches
pikes are great on seiges tho
It might be possible that pikes suck in rome2 because of the new fighting mechanics, since multiple units cant target one unit at the same time like in rome1 for the kill moves, they may have screwed up the pikes. I think they really depend on being possible for multiple pikes to hit 1 dude at the same time
The barbarians are beyond op their swords just crush the hoplites, hoplites in history were dominant, when you said "rome can hold their own against the boii" it pissed me off because your right, rome shouldnt be holding their own, rome should be wiping the floor with barbarians, same for macedon, when you do your faction focus every famous faction is lacking yet the barbarian factions are gods.... Playing as barbarians should be the challenge not factions like rome and macedon!
What PC have you got
I noticed this video is about a year old. Have they updated the pike infantry? Because I played Rome 2 a bit over the last week and although I'm not sure how it is on pvp, but I've dominated the AI when playing on campaign with pike infantry. I even tested the best Macedon pike unit against the best of hoplites and roman infantry in 1 on 1 battles and the pikes keep winning. Is it just because the AI is so incompetent that I've been winning?
probably so, against the ai they are gr9 as they can pin and damage them
+RantingRyuu728 Heir had very thin pikelines and wasn't using their strength (multiple rank attacks) to his advantage. Also every single one of his pike unit got flanked and he forgot to lower pikes on multiple instances xD
Just give pikes the square formation.
Ernesto Gamez IV Then they'll be OP.
Dude, that is not Long Yari Ashigaru lol
Heir didn't you already do some of these faction focuses before?
He's doing a faction focus for all factions now, just before the release of Atilla. Some factions would have changed since his previous faction focus on those factions, but now they seem unlikely to receive major changes.
I don't really agree with your analysis of Macedon. Maybe its just because I don't face enough challenging opponents anymore, but I have found there are a few ways to make Macedon pretty good. Hoplites are great in this patch. Thats the core infantry you should use as macedon. They will eventually lose to any good swords, but they can hold out long enough for Thracian warriors, Royal Peltasts, skirmish units, and cav to deliver the fatal blow. Even at 500, Thracian warriors can easily pay for themselves if used correctly. The same goes for Aspis cav. They aren't amazing anymore, but they can still punish infantry. They have all the tools they need to beat all of the civilized factions and potentially the barbarians. The biggest issue with macedon lies in the fact that each unit must be used in a particular role, and if not executed correctly, you will lose. Much depends on winning the cav fight, so what I like to do is use my thracian warriors in the cav fight to speed it up.
Overall, their cav will lose to good melee cav (around 700 price), but if you do manage to win the cav fight, it is basically gg. I like to do 5 or 6 hoplites (sometimes i even replace a couple with militia hoplites), 2 or 3 thracian warriors, a couple elite cav (companion or aspis), 3 or 4 thessalians, and 3 cretans/4 slingers. That usually works out for me.
Hey heir, instead of making stat changes to disciplined swordsmen like Libyans, Thorax, Pontic, Parthian, all them. What if they were just reduced in recruitment cost. They could be priced about 550-620 and keep the barbarian swords at their current price. Except maybe the Iberians. They could also maybe use a price reduction. I say this because I think the "civilized factions" could bring troops at a cheaper price that are inferior to the superior barbarian swords. This would help with the balancing and I think it'd be historically accurate as well.
Personally I would prefer it if they didn't buff hellenic swords. It seems to me that swords should really be the strength of barbs/rome. What hellenic factions really need is pikes that don't suck balls.