A Mozart for the modern day. Cannot understand why anyone would dislike Cardiacs. I can listen to any album from beginning to end, without skipping a track. No other band I can say that about.
The only reason I could imagine why some people don't like them, is because it's just too much for their tiny brains 🧠 Cardiacs truly have zero filler. Every song is a GEM 💎
I've actually heard it before, it's way more obvious in the version that's at the end of Fairy Mary Mag. You can actually also hear someone singing along with the main melody really quietly on the left channel and sniffing as if they've got a cold. So many layers of sound even when it's not even in Odd Even. I can't imagine how much stuff is hidden in the rest of the album.
You're right...I'd forgotten about that bit! Yes, it's mind boggling...the more you look the more you find. My appreciation of Tim's genius just keep growing.
I’ve spent almost my entire adult life listening to Cardiacs, saw them live in the 1980s maybe 50 or 60 times, and marvel at the glittery wonder of their music as much as anyone. I guess I knew that their music was built like this inside, so I’m really unsurprised that this was in there. But I’m still fucking dazzled by the beauty here. It’s like Bach and Conlon Nancarrow had a baby that eclipsed them both.
Got to agree with you - but I'm kind of gutted that I didn't encounter them until after Tim's passing. Never got to see them live...and I was in London through the whole 80's and most of the 90's gigging and desperate to find special music!
@@theboraxbandit9563 But at least we have the recordings - how many geniuses have been born somewhere where they had no way to express their talents? Scary thought...but both FZ and TS thankfully got a lot done with what they had! Both deserved much more time though for sure...
@@DaveGrahamMusic One major diffrence between FZ and TM. The first, was just as brilliant buissiness wise as in music, T.M. couldn't be bothered about self promotion and playing by the rules of the music industry, so he passed under the radar and the world missed out one of the greatest talents of all times
@@dorironen15 Yeah it's a shame...I've been playing music since the mid-90's, into weird stuff and based in London...and I only came across them from the publicity when Tim passed. it's crazy how under the radar they are. If they'd been around a few years earlier they could have supported Zappa, Crimson or Genesis and probably would have found receptive fans and moved up to that level. Even in the 90's/00's you'd think bands like Primus would LOVE to have them as support.
I love Tim and Zappa equally. But one thing Zappa did, taking his lead from some 20th-century composers, is write weird stuff as the meat in a sandwich of normal stuff (think the middle section of Wet T-Shirt Nite, though there are many other examples). His idea was that this is the only way to get commercially spoon-fed people to listen to the weird stuff. Tim is different and maybe some of this is cultural. Tim put his weird stuff and his "just tunes, innit?" on exactly the same level. Think of the jumpscares in Spinney. Why? Well, I think Tim was mocking the archetypical C&W cadence leading back into the verse. But somebody who would keep those realms separate would never do such a thing. So it's totally normal and natural for Tim to take a mutated, mode-defeating, pseudo-baroque filigree (with an obbligato!) into the middle of a dead-straight (if harmonically delicious) pop tune like Odd Even. It's not cynical. It's not showing off, saying this is what I _really_ do and I need this other stuff so you idiots will get it. It's as much an organic outgrowth as anything else in the tune (could you imagine Odd Even without it?). And that's a sign of artistic integrity as much as it is of musical genius. Sure, Tim was okay with editing out that tritone-inflecting howl and string quartet in the single version of Manhoo. Hey, you have to do what you have to do to get on the radio. But likewise, I can't imagine Jon's magnificent Manhoo without Tim's string writing in the middle there.
This makes this section even more impressive how much they managed to cram into an already harmonically dense part without it being overwhelming. Tim hid all sorts of nice "ear candy" moments all over this record.
I saw one interview with Jon Poole some time ago and he basically says this: Tim gave him this part and asked him to write a solo for it. He mentioned that Tim played some piano on this part, so I always thought that this background piano was Tim's playing. Also, I think there's much more stuff happening there beyond what you've managed to have transcribed so far. Jon Poole's solo was originally performed on a guitar and I think I can actually hear clean guitar tone behind the harpsichord synth that Tim probably dubbed on afterwards. I also tried transcribing this solo but as far as I remember, it came out sounding a bit different from what you did. Gotta dig it up and compare 'em. Thanks for the analysis!
No problem....its a complex environment to transcribe - lots of complex sounds, unusual note choices, odd layers and rhythms...and a variety of input methods,...some live parts, some midi parts, some edited audio..probably impossible to transcribe accurately. My version is just my interpretation :) Would probably take a group effort to get to the bottom of it all!
Well done brother!! Though an important point has to be made: you might have preferred break down this very same compositional moment ripping it off from the outro to Fairy Mary Mag, rather than from the original track where it actually belongs. To be precise, more than an outro, I would definite it a "bridging ghost track" which is quite a sensational technique Cardiacs adopts now and then throughout the album, if you pay well attention, and punctually presenting excerpts from other songs living in the same album, isolating picked parts of the production. And to be complete a list of the songs where this happens: Dog Like Sparky (Track 3) + Manhoo (Track 9) combined together used to bridge Dog Like Sparky (itself) (Track 3) and Fiery Gun Hand (track 4) Odd Even (track 13) used to bridge Fairy Mary Mag (track 6) and Belleye (track 7) Dog Like Sparky (again!) (Track 3) used to bridge Bellyeye (Track 7) and A Horse's Tail (Track 8) Extra: Foundling (Track 22) and Fiery Gun Hand (Track 4) echoing in Quite as a Mouse (track 17) Hearing the isolated track in Fairy Mary Mag, you'll hear there are additional layering going on, including a secondary melody sticking tight and harmonizing the main line and another piano coming from the left speaker as well as Tim's lovely voice humming sparsely the notes and the rhythm. =')
Is it possible it's another John Poole guitar line but done with varispeed? It sounds like that kind of timbre and resonance to me when it's all in there originally. But definitely never heard it before no.. That's really bizarre
You're right - didn't make the connection until I got more familiar with Hope Day - deffo a little reference. Hope Day is an INCREDIBLE song...and what was he, like 18 when he wrote it?
@@DaveGrahamMusic yes yes! i love in general the way Tim would leave little bits of songs in other songs, like how in "The Everso Closely Guarded Line" there's that big horn riff that recapitulates the main chorus melody of "A Little Man and a House"/"R.E.S."
more than likely tim improvised that as an overdub and went "yeah, yeah that sounds like when the bike goes down the road and looks around and the wheels tell me off" and kept it in.
Good detective work I've heard all sorts of treasures in the cardiacs art work and it's all musical genius, people always say "why are the cardiacs not more popular they're amazin" well the reason is us fans are lucky enough to have the ears to unlock and enjoy this music some people aren't as fortunate.
Thank you so much for this video. Did you make a sheet music notation of this motif with the counterpoint melody? If so, would it be possible for me to receive a pdf?
Hi Bob, no I just worked it out as midi, never scored it. Can see if I've still got the midi file and send you a link..I'm away from home for a few days, but when I'm back I'll check!
@@DaveGrahamMusic That would be wonderful. I am a church organist and thinking of learning this and randomly playing it during a dull moment at service.
@@DaveGrahamMusic Many thanks! I just downloaded it. I'll ask help from my teacher, who's a near genius when it comes to arranging and improvisation, and send you the score once we've figured it out. Curious to see if Tim took heed of the rules of counterpoint. My name is Bob. I'm a Dutchman living and working in The Netherlands (American father, hence the Anglo-Saxon name). As a musician I specialize in Early and Baroque music (everything up to and including J.S. Bach), but my ears are open to everything of interest (Cardiacs, Zappa, Deerhoof, Melt-Banana, Louis Andriessen et cetera). At home I practice on a small harpsichord, but I'm fortunate to have two monumental church organs at my disposal, from 1657 and 1746 respectively, both tuned in meantone temperament, which strangely works quite well for either early or very modern music.
I've no idea, but to me it seems more like a companion to the melody - it doesn't seem to me to contain any essential musical material that the rest of the track is built from...BUT, I could be wrong
I did a cover of this bit and I DID sit and painstakingly transcribe this ‘hidden’ piano melody aside from the bass and main melody. But there’s an elusive parallel harmony to the main melody which is less obvious than the hidden piano but maybe I’m imagining it. Every other cover of Odd Even sounds slightly different. I have no idea what’s ‘right’ and what isn’t.
Heh you know you're in deep when you are trying to transcribe something that you are not sure is real or not :) Yeah there's a harpsichord (or pitch shifted guitar??) type sound in there that has this strong fifth in the sound..or it's doubled at a fifth,,,,god knows..."I have no idea what’s ‘right’ and what isn’t" - that's a pretty good summary of me transcribing Cardiacs!
@@meursault7030 to be honest when I did this vid I'd had a glass of wine and was a bit excitable! LOTSS is one of my faves and I'll deffo go and check out the outro. There's some (i think) mellotron flute over the first verse which is just beautiful...but the whole track is extraordinary and wonderful.
@@DaveGrahamMusic That it is. Understandable lol Cardiacs gets me like that sometimes regardless of what I've had to drink.And we're all at the mercy of our ears and speakers, at the end of the day.
Yeah it's a tough call...a lot of harmonically rich sounds, playing pretty atonal parts, very fast...it's hard to pin down what's what...but there's something in there!
I know there are a lot of extremely talented people in prog but is there anyone who would come up with something as wildly complex and subtle as this? (I'm not an expert)
The short and simple answer is yes. Writing complex music is actually pretty easy. But Tim's music is subtly different. The complexity is not really important. He does what the song needs, no more no less. His style of complexity is not just weird, but weird in a weird way. Very technical, but always feels natural...organic...necessary to express the sentiment of the song (which is usually curiously ambiguous, surreal, or mysterious). And crucially he found a way to inject his personality into every note - and that is rare, and not really possible to learn or fake. You either do it or don't - and the ones that do are usually once-in-a-generation geniuses. And one final thing - I don't find any other proggy style music very emotional. It might be cool, or impressive...But Tim's work always makes me smile, and well-up with emotion. I feel that the greatest music always makes you feel loved - like the people who created it gave their time and energy to you, to make your life better. To me, Cardiacs fits that bill.
@@DaveGrahamMusic Yes I think it's not just the complexity but the subtlety at the same time. For example, On Reflection by Gentle Giant is an amazing track, but although the end bit is a fairly complex melody line, all three instruments are playing the same thing (albeit at different times) and they are all mixed at a similar level. Whereas Odd Even has four parts that are much more complex, each is different to each other, and each is mixed at different levels to complement each other. Tim used cut-and-paste studio trickery to compose these melodies but I'd be interested in whether any other artists come close to this sort of thing
@@DaveGrahamMusic PS I totally agree about the emotion Tim brought to his music in contrast to much prog. He had technical mastery but also art in equal measure
@@DaveGrahamMusic I didn't mean so much how you got it (I recognize that aural transcription is, at the end of the day, intuitive / interpretive) as how exactly you spelled the chord. All I hear is a fat, nasty tritone but it's way too dense for a single note. And no, it's not a mere diminished triad ;)
haha sorry yes of course! as I recall it's just a straight E major chord and the lead line hits the A# right on top of it... although it's unusual in that the A# is lower than the B in the chord. Aside from that I dont think there's any other notes in there.
@@DaveGrahamMusic In guitar notation you'd call that an E #11, but you're saying it's a first-position cluster triad with an interpolated #4, right? 1-3-#4-5? More lydian goodness from Timmy ;) Or wait, you're saying it's a straight E major chord with the A# in the lead line (below the B in the chord). Ouch ;)
@@Snardbafulator you can call it all or any of those things. But yes it makes sense to me to say an E major chord as that's what's being played behind the lead line...and the A# is not functional as harmony - it's just sitting there intentionally sounding out of place :) I think working up from the bottom across the whole mix it would look something like, E, A#, B, E , G# - ish. I'm a music theory nerd, but I like to keep it simple and practical, so often for me just spelling out the notes in the chord is more practical than adding loads of b5#9#13's. And I hate modes so I ignore them :)
A Mozart for the modern day. Cannot understand why anyone would dislike Cardiacs. I can listen to any album from beginning to end, without skipping a track. No other band I can say that about.
Absolutely agree!
The only reason I could imagine why some people don't like them, is because it's just too much for their tiny brains 🧠
Cardiacs truly have zero filler. Every song is a GEM 💎
I've actually heard it before, it's way more obvious in the version that's at the end of Fairy Mary Mag. You can actually also hear someone singing along with the main melody really quietly on the left channel and sniffing as if they've got a cold. So many layers of sound even when it's not even in Odd Even. I can't imagine how much stuff is hidden in the rest of the album.
You're right...I'd forgotten about that bit! Yes, it's mind boggling...the more you look the more you find. My appreciation of Tim's genius just keep growing.
his brothers bass playing does so much to carry these crazy melodies
I think Jon Poole has said it was him playing bass on this, but either way, yeah its amazing playing and a beautiful line
I’ve spent almost my entire adult life listening to Cardiacs, saw them live in the 1980s maybe 50 or 60 times, and marvel at the glittery wonder of their music as much as anyone.
I guess I knew that their music was built like this inside, so I’m really unsurprised that this was in there.
But I’m still fucking dazzled by the beauty here. It’s like Bach and Conlon Nancarrow had a baby that eclipsed them both.
Got to agree with you - but I'm kind of gutted that I didn't encounter them until after Tim's passing. Never got to see them live...and I was in London through the whole 80's and most of the 90's gigging and desperate to find special music!
@@DaveGrahamMusic It's painful to think I will never see the likes of Zappa or Cardiacs live
@@theboraxbandit9563 But at least we have the recordings - how many geniuses have been born somewhere where they had no way to express their talents? Scary thought...but both FZ and TS thankfully got a lot done with what they had! Both deserved much more time though for sure...
@@DaveGrahamMusic One major diffrence between FZ and TM. The first, was just as brilliant buissiness wise as in music, T.M. couldn't be bothered about self promotion and playing by the rules of the music industry, so he passed under the radar and the world missed out one of the greatest talents of all times
@@dorironen15 Yeah it's a shame...I've been playing music since the mid-90's, into weird stuff and based in London...and I only came across them from the publicity when Tim passed. it's crazy how under the radar they are. If they'd been around a few years earlier they could have supported Zappa, Crimson or Genesis and probably would have found receptive fans and moved up to that level. Even in the 90's/00's you'd think bands like Primus would LOVE to have them as support.
Amazing. I think we will be be finding little details like this in his work for many years. Always good to see another Reaper user!
I love Tim and Zappa equally. But one thing Zappa did, taking his lead from some 20th-century composers, is write weird stuff as the meat in a sandwich of normal stuff (think the middle section of Wet T-Shirt Nite, though there are many other examples). His idea was that this is the only way to get commercially spoon-fed people to listen to the weird stuff.
Tim is different and maybe some of this is cultural. Tim put his weird stuff and his "just tunes, innit?" on exactly the same level. Think of the jumpscares in Spinney. Why? Well, I think Tim was mocking the archetypical C&W cadence leading back into the verse. But somebody who would keep those realms separate would never do such a thing.
So it's totally normal and natural for Tim to take a mutated, mode-defeating, pseudo-baroque filigree (with an obbligato!) into the middle of a dead-straight (if harmonically delicious) pop tune like Odd Even. It's not cynical. It's not showing off, saying this is what I _really_ do and I need this other stuff so you idiots will get it. It's as much an organic outgrowth as anything else in the tune (could you imagine Odd Even without it?). And that's a sign of artistic integrity as much as it is of musical genius.
Sure, Tim was okay with editing out that tritone-inflecting howl and string quartet in the single version of Manhoo. Hey, you have to do what you have to do to get on the radio. But likewise, I can't imagine Jon's magnificent Manhoo without Tim's string writing in the middle there.
The man REALLY was a genius.
Getting harder to deny....
This makes this section even more impressive how much they managed to cram into an already harmonically dense part without it being overwhelming. Tim hid all sorts of nice "ear candy" moments all over this record.
Yeah it's really well put together...strong hints of Uncle Meat era Zappa in this section too....
I saw one interview with Jon Poole some time ago and he basically says this:
Tim gave him this part and asked him to write a solo for it. He mentioned that Tim played some piano on this part, so I always thought that this background piano was Tim's playing. Also, I think there's much more stuff happening there beyond what you've managed to have transcribed so far. Jon Poole's solo was originally performed on a guitar and I think I can actually hear clean guitar tone behind the harpsichord synth that Tim probably dubbed on afterwards.
I also tried transcribing this solo but as far as I remember, it came out sounding a bit different from what you did. Gotta dig it up and compare 'em. Thanks for the analysis!
No problem....its a complex environment to transcribe - lots of complex sounds, unusual note choices, odd layers and rhythms...and a variety of input methods,...some live parts, some midi parts, some edited audio..probably impossible to transcribe accurately. My version is just my interpretation :) Would probably take a group effort to get to the bottom of it all!
Now when I listen this second "hidden" melody stands out to me clear as day!
I know right? I listened to it probably 100 times and never noticed it...until I started trying to work it out!
Absolutely love this sort of thing
what has been heard cannot be unheard..... :)
And as I found out...what has been smelled....cannot be unsmelled 😥
Absolutely Incredible. Thank you Dave, I don’t think I would have ever noticed otherwise.
MY MIND IS BLOWN!
Tell me about it!
Well done brother!! Though an important point has to be made:
you might have preferred break down this very same compositional moment ripping it off from the outro to Fairy Mary Mag, rather than from the original track where it actually belongs. To be precise, more than an outro, I would definite it a "bridging ghost track" which is quite a sensational technique Cardiacs adopts now and then throughout the album, if you pay well attention, and punctually presenting excerpts from other songs living in the same album, isolating picked parts of the production. And to be complete a list of the songs where this happens:
Dog Like Sparky (Track 3) + Manhoo (Track 9) combined together used to bridge Dog Like Sparky (itself) (Track 3) and Fiery Gun Hand (track 4)
Odd Even (track 13) used to bridge Fairy Mary Mag (track 6) and Belleye (track 7)
Dog Like Sparky (again!) (Track 3) used to bridge Bellyeye (Track 7) and A Horse's Tail (Track 8)
Extra: Foundling (Track 22) and Fiery Gun Hand (Track 4) echoing in Quite as a Mouse (track 17)
Hearing the isolated track in Fairy Mary Mag, you'll hear there are additional layering going on, including a secondary melody sticking tight and harmonizing the main line and another piano coming from the left speaker as well as Tim's lovely voice humming sparsely the notes and the rhythm. =')
Thanks, yes you are quite right, I did this when quite new to the album, but am I well acquainted with it now :)
Is it possible it's another John Poole guitar line but done with varispeed? It sounds like that kind of timbre and resonance to me when it's all in there originally. But definitely never heard it before no.. That's really bizarre
Sounds speed up or pitch shifted to me...but who knows..yeah it's weird as all hell.
Yeah this is pretty nuts. Thank you so much for bringing it to light!
My pleasure!
I wonder why the countermelody is so buried in the mix
Unreal , nice breakdown , that's a lot of work trying to uncover the mad musical genius put into that track !! Great Work !!
Thank you...yes it's a pretty deep dive, but I find it very inspiring to put the effort in when the songwriter is this good!
3:00 that's "Hope Day"! hearing that made me cry a little
You're right - didn't make the connection until I got more familiar with Hope Day - deffo a little reference. Hope Day is an INCREDIBLE song...and what was he, like 18 when he wrote it?
@@DaveGrahamMusic yes yes! i love in general the way Tim would leave little bits of songs in other songs, like how in "The Everso Closely Guarded Line" there's that big horn riff that recapitulates the main chorus melody of "A Little Man and a House"/"R.E.S."
when you think you have a melody worked out... now I have to learn to sing along with this bit
all the more to enjoy!
more than likely tim improvised that as an overdub and went "yeah, yeah that sounds like when the bike goes down the road and looks around and the wheels tell me off" and kept it in.
i love cardiacs bro
You have great taste :)
Cardiacs are weird.. odd even. I love it!
me too! fascinating stuff!
Good detective work I've heard all sorts of treasures in the cardiacs art work and it's all musical genius, people always say "why are the cardiacs not more popular they're amazin" well the reason is us fans are lucky enough to have the ears to unlock and enjoy this music some people aren't as fortunate.
Thanks -yes, hugely rewarding music to listen to .but not for the faint hearted!
Holy shit. Yeah, no that's legitimately brainmelting.
Hehe yep it is :)
Brain. Blown.
Tell me about it!
Lovely!
I feel like mye life is a lie after watching this video. Like how have I not heard this melody before?????
Nothing makes sense anymore...I know!
Love it
He left us a bottomless treasure chest to explore...
Couldn't agree more!
Yes!
Thank you so much for this video. Did you make a sheet music notation of this motif with the counterpoint melody? If so, would it be possible for me to receive a pdf?
Hi Bob, no I just worked it out as midi, never scored it. Can see if I've still got the midi file and send you a link..I'm away from home for a few days, but when I'm back I'll check!
@@DaveGrahamMusic That would be wonderful. I am a church organist and thinking of learning this and randomly playing it during a dull moment at service.
@@rjwusher ok...this must happen....I'll be home tonight and will dig it out!
@@rjwusher Here's a link to the midi...let me know if you can decode it! drive.google.com/file/d/10GP55Ee2Osc-bm8h3PBqdrt5m_iPhMC4/view?usp=share_link
@@DaveGrahamMusic Many thanks! I just downloaded it. I'll ask help from my teacher, who's a near genius when it comes to arranging and improvisation, and send you the score once we've figured it out. Curious to see if Tim took heed of the rules of counterpoint.
My name is Bob. I'm a Dutchman living and working in The Netherlands (American father, hence the Anglo-Saxon name). As a musician I specialize in Early and Baroque music (everything up to and including J.S. Bach), but my ears are open to everything of interest (Cardiacs, Zappa, Deerhoof, Melt-Banana, Louis Andriessen et cetera). At home I practice on a small harpsichord, but I'm fortunate to have two monumental church organs at my disposal, from 1657 and 1746 respectively, both tuned in meantone temperament, which strangely works quite well for either early or very modern music.
I can't help but wonder if it's an "Easter egg" or the foundation upon which he built the song.
I've no idea, but to me it seems more like a companion to the melody - it doesn't seem to me to contain any essential musical material that the rest of the track is built from...BUT, I could be wrong
I did a cover of this bit and I DID sit and painstakingly transcribe this ‘hidden’ piano melody aside from the bass and main melody. But there’s an elusive parallel harmony
to the main melody which is less obvious than the hidden piano but maybe I’m imagining it. Every other cover of Odd Even sounds slightly different. I have no idea what’s ‘right’ and what isn’t.
Heh you know you're in deep when you are trying to transcribe something that you are not sure is real or not :) Yeah there's a harpsichord (or pitch shifted guitar??) type sound in there that has this strong fifth in the sound..or it's doubled at a fifth,,,,god knows..."I have no idea what’s ‘right’ and what isn’t" - that's a pretty good summary of me transcribing Cardiacs!
OMG!
I wasn't aware that was supposed to be hidden.
Glad I could help with that ;)
@@DaveGrahamMusic Lmao thanks!
Tbf it took me months to hear the SICK saxophone parts in the outro of Leader of the Starry Skies.
@@meursault7030 to be honest when I did this vid I'd had a glass of wine and was a bit excitable! LOTSS is one of my faves and I'll deffo go and check out the outro. There's some (i think) mellotron flute over the first verse which is just beautiful...but the whole track is extraordinary and wonderful.
@@DaveGrahamMusic That it is.
Understandable lol Cardiacs gets me like that sometimes regardless of what I've had to drink.And we're all at the mercy of our ears and speakers, at the end of the day.
That counterpoint is panned out quite far, so if you split stereo to mono and invert one of the two you almost get it out solo.
thanks - I'll check that out and see!
Initially, I thought that you were merely hearing residual harmonics. Now however, I'm not sure!
Yeah it's a tough call...a lot of harmonically rich sounds, playing pretty atonal parts, very fast...it's hard to pin down what's what...but there's something in there!
I know there are a lot of extremely talented people in prog but is there anyone who would come up with something as wildly complex and subtle as this? (I'm not an expert)
The short and simple answer is yes. Writing complex music is actually pretty easy.
But Tim's music is subtly different. The complexity is not really important. He does what the song needs, no more no less.
His style of complexity is not just weird, but weird in a weird way. Very technical, but always feels natural...organic...necessary to express the sentiment of the song (which is usually curiously ambiguous, surreal, or mysterious).
And crucially he found a way to inject his personality into every note - and that is rare, and not really possible to learn or fake. You either do it or don't - and the ones that do are usually once-in-a-generation geniuses.
And one final thing - I don't find any other proggy style music very emotional. It might be cool, or impressive...But Tim's work always makes me smile, and well-up with emotion.
I feel that the greatest music always makes you feel loved - like the people who created it gave their time and energy to you, to make your life better. To me, Cardiacs fits that bill.
@@DaveGrahamMusic Yes I think it's not just the complexity but the subtlety at the same time. For example, On Reflection by Gentle Giant is an amazing track, but although the end bit is a fairly complex melody line, all three instruments are playing the same thing (albeit at different times) and they are all mixed at a similar level. Whereas Odd Even has four parts that are much more complex, each is different to each other, and each is mixed at different levels to complement each other.
Tim used cut-and-paste studio trickery to compose these melodies but I'd be interested in whether any other artists come close to this sort of thing
@@DaveGrahamMusic PS I totally agree about the emotion Tim brought to his music in contrast to much prog. He had technical mastery but also art in equal measure
@@ExLionTamer2 Zappa.
that single line isnt from the Clangers is it?
I can't hear it, but I wouldn't rule it out either!
#doughelvering needs to react to #cardiacs
I would watch that!
And how did you voice that glorious wet fart of a tritone cluster on the last note? Tim said he loved that when Jon showed it to him ;)
It's my fave moment, and I just transcribed it by ear which was a case of trial and error...which took ages as it's a complete nightmare.
@@DaveGrahamMusic I didn't mean so much how you got it (I recognize that aural transcription is, at the end of the day, intuitive / interpretive) as how exactly you spelled the chord. All I hear is a fat, nasty tritone but it's way too dense for a single note. And no, it's not a mere diminished triad ;)
haha sorry yes of course! as I recall it's just a straight E major chord and the lead line hits the A# right on top of it... although it's unusual in that the A# is lower than the B in the chord. Aside from that I dont think there's any other notes in there.
@@DaveGrahamMusic In guitar notation you'd call that an E #11, but you're saying it's a first-position cluster triad with an interpolated #4, right? 1-3-#4-5? More lydian goodness from Timmy ;)
Or wait, you're saying it's a straight E major chord with the A# in the lead line (below the B in the chord). Ouch ;)
@@Snardbafulator you can call it all or any of those things. But yes it makes sense to me to say an E major chord as that's what's being played behind the lead line...and the A# is not functional as harmony - it's just sitting there intentionally sounding out of place :)
I think working up from the bottom across the whole mix it would look something like, E, A#, B, E , G# - ish. I'm a music theory nerd, but I like to keep it simple and practical, so often for me just spelling out the notes in the chord is more practical than adding loads of b5#9#13's. And I hate modes so I ignore them :)